August 29, 2025 • 31 mins
This week on The Sounds of Film, host Tom Needham speaks with award-winning filmmaker Thomas Piper about his acclaimed documentary Five Seasons: The Gardens of Piet Oudolf.
The film immerses viewers in the work of Piet Oudolf, the world’s most celebrated garden designer, whose visionary projects include New York’s High Line and Chicago’s Millennium Park. Through stunning cinematography and rare access to Oudolf’s process, Piper captures the designer’s philosophy of beauty, ecology, and the poetry of plants.
The conversation highlights the artistry behind Five Seasons, which follows Oudolf across four seasons in his own gardens at Hummelo, on visits to far-flung landscapes that inspire his work, and during the creation of what he considers his greatest achievement—the garden at Hauser & Wirth Somerset in England. Piper shares insights into documenting a living, ever-changing art form, while reflecting on the challenges and rewards of filming someone whose genius lies in shaping the natural world.
Listeners will also learn about an exciting upcoming event: On September 4th at 7:00 pm, the Port Jefferson Arts Council and the Long Island Museum present a free screening of Five Seasons, followed by a panel discussion with Andrew Thomas, Kayal Serina, and Kayla Cheshire.
For more information about The Sounds of Film, visit soundsoffilm.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Tom Needham and on this edition of The Sounds of
Film we'll be speaking with the award-winning filmmaker Thomas
Piper, the director of five seasons, The Gardens of Pete
Aldolf. The film immerses viewers in the
artistry and vision of the worldrenowned garden designer Pete
(00:21):
Aldolf, offering a rare look at his creative process and
landmark projects, including NewYork's Highline.
A free public screening of the documentary will take place on
September 4th at 7:00 PM, presented by the Port Jefferson
Arts Council and the Long IslandMuseum, followed by a panel
discussion with local experts. Thomas, thank you so much for
(00:45):
joining us on The Sounds of Film.
Sure, thanks for having me. Man, I love this movie.
Tell me a little bit about what it was about Pete that convinced
you that you wanted to make a feature length documentary about
him. Yes.
Well, it didn't actually start out.
(01:06):
That wasn't my intention at at the start I'd I'd made, I've
made most of the films I've knewabout architecture or architects
and and designers. And so I'd done a film with the
architecture firm dealer Skip Video on Renfro and they were
the design architects for the Highline here in New York.
(01:26):
And so I'd spent a lot of time on the Highline, especially as
the second phase was just being open.
So I was sort of up there seeingthose it all come together and
shooting as the construction andinstallation was taking place.
And I, I just kind of thought the plants, that what was
(01:47):
happening with the plants was really interesting to me.
And, and I'm not, I mean, I always feel compelled to make
this disclosure, but I'm not a gardener really.
And so I didn't come at it from that perspective, but I just was
sort of fascinated by what was happening.
And I knew Pete, I knew him by reputation and I knew that he
was in charge of the planting design for the, for the
(02:09):
Highline. And so I, I managed to get an
introduction and, and for a minute I thought about maybe
seeing if he want to be interviewed for the film about
Taylor Swift video. And then that never came to
pass. But he and I met after that film
was completed and, and I just was asked, you know, I just told
him I, I thought that planting was really fascinating And I, I
(02:32):
thought there was something really interesting going on that
I didn't understand at all. And he was just really open to
discussing it and, and we got along pretty well.
And then he invited me to come see his garden in Holland and
Homelow. And so I just sort of planned a
trip And then I said, you know, maybe I could come and shoot it
and, you know, just see how it looks on film or, you know, see
(02:53):
what I get. And, but I, I kind of thought
maybe it would just be a short piece about his own garden,
which I, I, in, in talking to him, I sort of got the sense
that it was kind of more like a,I, I sort of created this
thought in my head that it was kind of like a, more like an
artist studio or a laboratory where he was trying to do things
that he then would take to public projects or bigger
(03:15):
projects, but it was a little more experimental.
And so I, we, I just showed up and we started shooting.
And it's just, it was pretty quick that it became apparent
that he just as a character was compelling enough that maybe
there there could be more to to just than just shooting his
garden and then the idea of the seasons.
(03:37):
And so it's sort of it's sort ofstarted to take on a larger
scope. But it was, you know, I guess I
would say it was really down to just sort of spending enough
time with him to realize like, he might actually carry a longer
film in a short film, really. You mentioned that you're not an
expert gardener when when you started to watch him work when
(03:58):
you were at the Highline. What was it that kind of got
your attention that interested you the most?
I, I think it was because I didn't actually ever see him
planting and, and it was more, Iguess it was probably more the
experience of what, what had already been open the first
(04:19):
phase, which is like the 1st 15 blocks or something of the
highlight from Gansevoort North.And, and it, it just, I don't
know. I mean, it was just, it felt
like there was something, the experience was really defined by
the planting and the fact that there were trees already up
(04:40):
there. That and the, and the way the
planting varied. So you know, what I came to
learn from from talking to both Pete and, and Jim Corner, the
landscape architect of the project, was that it was
intentionally designed to have these kind of different,
different ecosystems or landscapes as you move through
the highline, as you walk the Highline, you'd be passing
(05:02):
through a Meadow or a, a wooded area.
And so I just, you know, withoutknowing much about how one would
do that, I just suddenly found myself being so really moved by
it, but just curious to know more.
So you know it, and I would say even now, I mean, even for
(05:25):
people who I've come to know whoare serious gardeners and the
people who've worked with Pete and stuff, you know, there,
there's still a sense of this kind of mysterious thing that he
does that he's able to create. I think a lot of it is like the,
the, the density and the combinations of plants that he's
able to, to work that, that either people who I know know a
(05:47):
lot about plants will say like it would never occur to them
that that would even be possible.
Or just people looking at it from an aesthetics perspective
talk about like it's really unusual, you know, in the
context of other garden design or the history of garden design.
I mean, they're, you know, he's not, it's not out of the blue,
but it is kind of really pushingsome ideas further than than
(06:09):
other people had. I think it's it's one way to to
look at it and describe it. You mentioned that Pete's an
interesting character. For those people that haven't
seen the film yet, can you give our listeners just a little
sense about his character and and and what drew you to him as
a person and why you thought he would be an interesting person
(06:29):
to make a film about? Yes, I mean, I, I, the the most
succinct way, which I know sometimes, I mean he's laughs
at, but some sometimes considered to be, you know, I,
I, I guess the Dutch aren't often, you know, stereotyped or
(06:50):
or maybe they're stereotyped, but it's not a belittling thing.
But he's just, I think of him asvery Dutch.
So he's very, you know, like there's a certain way of being
very straightforward and, and, and speaking in a kind of very
direct way. And, and that that can come
(07:11):
across. I mean, I, I think when it is
sort of stereotypes, I think that thing tends to be like
it's, it's to, to people with some sort of, you know, used to
talking in circles or whatever the, the sensitivity to hearing
something, you know, being told something so direct can be hard
to take. But I think with, with him
talking about plants, it also kind of comes across as a little
(07:33):
enigmatic. You know that it's it it it
creates this kind of captivating.
You know, it's so direct that itdoesn't even it it kind of skips
right through any sort of explanation or or trying to
trying to make you understand what he's doing.
(07:53):
It. It comes across as very sort of
it's like a really concise language that, you know, like
really powerful poetry can have a writing or you know, like
Hemingway or something where it's just he's he's very concise
and and uses very few words. But when he's talking about
something like plants that he isjust so obsessed with and in
(08:14):
love with that it can really be it lands really well.
And I think it really lends itself especially to to film
where, you know, it's it's not along winded interview.
It's not, you know, that that and I try to edit it for for
being so not not a lot of talking in the film.
And so the way he can deliver very concise and slightly
(08:35):
enigmatic phrasing can it's, I think works really well.
Did you immediately envision five seasons as a film spanning
an entire year? I not well, I think when I when
it moved from being oh, maybe this doesn't just need to be
about a short film about his garden.
Then I then I did think and it, and it, it just became apparent.
(08:59):
I mean, he had invited me to come visit him and see his
garden in, in October, 'cause hewas doing a workshop there.
And, and, and that was, it was pretty apparent that like,
that's really his favorite time of year, which is, you know,
slightly, slightly out of sync with, I think, you know, what we
think of as typical the, the peak time in a garden when the
(09:22):
flowers are out in summer or late summer.
And, and so that was really interesting to me.
And then, and then I knew already from sort of having
known of him or read about him that he talks a lot about
plants, like choosing plants that also look good in winter
and how he leaves plants, plants, most of the perennials
(09:47):
and, and, and, and instead of cutting, you know, like the, the
typical cycle for a perennial garden is you, you, you planted.
They, they, they come up in the spring and they bloom and they
go through the summer in late fall, in the fall into late
fall. And then they, they go dormant.
And essentially at that point, traditionally you would just cut
(10:08):
it all back and let it, and essentially keep the plant, you
know, let it conserve energy. And then it comes up again in
the spring and it starts all over again.
But cutting back the gardens would would more normally happen
earlier in the winter and then that essentially do would become
the mulch for the overwintering.And but he doesn't like he he
(10:31):
cuts back his garden. And now that that's the trend in
all of his gardens, like here inthe highline, it's that that
that it doesn't happen until March, February or March.
And so there's actually a whole winter garden time where it's
just these plants. And then the plants are, you
know, a lot of what he's choosing and plants are ones
that have a kind of architectural shape or, or, or
(10:53):
very distinct silhouette in the winter.
You know, they're all kind of brown and, and there's no leaves
or flowers or anything going on,but it's, but they're the seed
heads or the, the stalks or the,the way things kind of, you
know, the grasses that have gonedry, the Russell and his, you
know, all of that's really, he, he thinks about that and does it
(11:16):
intentionally. So, so that made me think, Oh,
well, the winter, I've got to shoot winter.
And by then I was like, well, I'm just going to get every
season. And and and that became an idea
for how to structure structure the movie as well.
And it becomes very philosophical.
You know, it, he's talking aboutthese gardens, but you know, it
(11:37):
could be talking about life and humans and, and did did you
start to get a sense early on about some of the deeper themes
running through this movie? Yeah, I mean, I think that's
that's kind of, I guess what I was kind of alluding to with,
with the way, you know, finding the way he would talk very
captivating. And I, and I think some of that
(12:00):
is, you know, I, I, people will often joke that he's, you know,
he has a closer relationship with plants than people or
something, you know, I mean that, that he loves plants above
and beyond even loving people or, you know, whatever that
that's his real social milieu orsomething.
But he, I mean, I think it's clear that he has this intense
(12:23):
relationship with understanding plants and, and being wanting to
be as knowledgeable as he can about them.
But I think that also lent itself to the way in which he,
he's really facile about being able to equate, you know, plants
and people and making kind of analogies that that I think are
(12:44):
really moving. I mean, especially when you that
whole thing about thinking aboutplants as you go into winter and
then he's, you know, he sort of overlays the human lifespan and
he has that line that he says often about, you know, it's like
plants make us feel our own lifespan, but it but it happens
every year. And so we get to go through this
emotional cycle of of, of kind of birth and life and death
(13:09):
every year. And so, yeah, I, I think it's,
it's, yeah, that's all part of it.
I mean, he really, it just really, I think there's between
the creativity and the sort of artistry of what he's doing with
the gardens and then the fact that he is a fairly soulful
thinker about it as well. Literally those two things
together just made it feel like,oh, this could be really rich
(13:31):
for for a long time. You know, not just 20 minutes,
but 75 or whatever it ends up being.
And one of the things that makesthis film so great is that, and
this is not true of all documentaries, it seems like you
really made an effort to get an excellent film score for this
film. That really adds to the poetic
(13:53):
nature of the the movie. Can you tell me a little bit
about the music in this film andwhat your intent was?
Yeah, I mean that, that that wasreally I, it was just, I mean,
and maybe I've always tried to think about that.
I mean, I just, I, I'm a fucker for when music and and moving
(14:13):
images work well together. So I, I, I sort of think, I try
to be ambitious about that or, or, or really strive for that
and other projects. But this obviously just felt
like, oh God, this could really be something with, with these
such beautiful, you know, and, and moving and, and the whole
nature of the way that the gardens work 'cause they're not
(14:35):
just these static pictures or, you know, I mean, having shot a
lot of architecture prior to this, it was, you know, the
buildings maybe get shadow play or something like that, But
otherwise the buildings just kind of sit there and they don't
do anything. And so this felt like it was
really dynamic. And so it made me think a lot
about the music. But but the way the music came
about was a great is a, is a favorite story from the whole
(14:58):
experience. But I had I, you know, as, as I
was working on the editing, starting to work on the editing.
It's like you lay in scratch tracks like music that that I
knew of, that I thought my work that just pre recorded stuff
from mother and death or or whatever.
You can sort of keep the catalogof things music you you always
(15:19):
find interesting. And I've used a couple of pieces
from this band called Siga Ross,which is there from Iceland.
And when I so a lot of the film takes place, the the sort of the
centerpiece of the movie is the tracking, the installation of
(15:40):
the one garden for Hauser and Werf and in Somerset in England.
And so that was the place I keptcoming back to and spending a
lot of time at and, and, and because it's because Hauser and
Werth is an art gallery first and foremost, They this whole
thing they were creating in Somerset included a resident, an
artist's residency as well as a gallery and exhibition space.
(16:02):
And, and the artists in residence at the time that I was
there frequently. What was the, it's the Dieter
Roth Studio and Dieter Roth is no longer alive, but it's his
son and grandson. And they, Dieter Roth was Swiss,
but they, they, his son and grandson were born in Iceland
(16:22):
and they live in Iceland. And so, and it's a kind of
collective at this point now. So this whole crew of Icelandic
artists were there in residence and and they're they're wild
bunch and and the stories that already proceed like people were
like, Oh God, if you run into the Roths, you know, like it's
going to you're going to love them, but like be careful.
(16:46):
Like they're really crazy. And there were just hilarious
stories about things that they were shenanigans they were
getting up to. And but one of the things that
that the Roth studio does, and Ithink they've done it in a
number of housing worth locations, but they build a bar
and, and they far out of just a total collection of assemblage
(17:10):
of odd found objects and stuff and junk and, and, and it's,
it's pretty crazy and chaotic assemblage of stuff.
So one night I was there and I, I was talking to Odor Roth,
who's the grandson, and I was telling him about making the
movie. And he was like, oh God, Pete's
a great guy. And that sounds great.
And I was like, you know, I'm I,I'm, I need music for the film.
(17:33):
And I've been, you know, I know you're from Iceland and I've
been using music from Sigur Ross, the band.
And I thought, you know, maybe small place Iceland.
I thought maybe he could let me make an introduction or I could
find a way to ask him if I coulduse the music.
And then he immediately was like, oh, you don't want that
music. I was like, OK, And he said,
I've got the guy for you. And I'm like, great, this sounds
(17:56):
promising. And he then pointed to in in in
amongst the stuff that makes up the the bar that we were
standing at were like old video monitors that had just videos
looping on them. And most of them were just kind
of stuff they'd shot themselves of the studio, like making the
(18:20):
bar. But also just other kind of,
there was some stuff with fireworks and you know, like
just, they were just obviously had a camera and we were playing
around with it. And, and at one point there,
there was a, a guy in a, in a like a, a one piece like, you
know, construction suit or whatever.
And he was, he was flat out on the floor and it, and it looked
(18:44):
not so much like a nap as much as it's more like he just sort
of run out of steam from the, from imbibing or something.
Anyway, But, and so, and odor was like, that's your guy.
And I was like, OK, all right, that's, that's, that's yeah,
we'll see where this goes. But anyhow, he said, I'll, I'll
get in touch with him. He's not here now.
(19:05):
He's gone back to Iceland, but I'll put you in touch with him.
And, and he did, he made an introduction and then I never
heard back, you know, I never heard from the guy.
And I thought, oh, well, you know, maybe he's still sleeping
or whatever. And, but eventually he did
respond and I told him what I was looking for and he said, oh,
sure. And he just sent me like 3 CDs
(19:26):
worth of music, just just sent it to me.
He's like, yeah, use, use whatever you like.
And he is, he's a composer and Aand a pianist and he works a lot
with some another artist, WagnerCartinson, who, who does a lot
of musical composition works that it ends up in museums and
stuff. And so, I mean, he's an
incredible musician and, and themusic is really incredible.
(19:50):
And, and he just, I just was like, I just sort of had the run
of it. I could just pick and choose
what I wanted. And that, and that was the start
of working with actual music forthe film that I knew I could
keep and use. And that that was really the
start of it. But I did reach a point where I
kind of felt like I'd run out orI couldn't.
(20:14):
I didn't. Couldn't find anything else
amongst everything he'd sent me that might work.
And and then I asked him for more.
I thought, you know, do you haveany other things you could send
me or maybe would you be willingto score?
Like if I send you a scene, would you be willing to score?
This is actual composed to the picture.
And I never heard back from him.And so I was like, oh, well, I
(20:34):
guess that's it. And I just one of my best
friends here in New York is a musician as well.
And, and I was talking to him and he'd actually done some
scoring for me for past projects.
And I said, well, you know, I'vegot half the music basically
with, with this guy David, but Idon't, I need the rest.
And he took a listen to it. He's like, oh, I'd love to like
(20:55):
try and write stuff to match that or build on that or so then
he did. So he essentially was like a
two-part score, but it ended up working really, really great
together. I think.
I mean, I, I, I think it comes together really.
I agree. It's one of the best things I've
heard in a long time. I was also surprised at the end
of the movie. You don't expect this in a
(21:16):
documentary. All of a sudden the film ends
and then Paul McCartney comes onand, and I'll be honest, I've
heard that. Well, tell everybody what song
you you you have for the end of the movie.
Yeah, it's coming up. It's a the the Wings song.
It it, I've heard that song a million times.
(21:37):
But yeah, I don't know how. I never really just, I don't
think I ever really paid attention to the lyrics and and
I don't think I'll ever hear thesong the same now.
And you know, after watching your movie, it's incredible.
I'll have to. We'll have to let Sir Paul know
that it's now got a new association.
How did you get permission? For that, yeah, that.
(22:00):
Was I just happened to another friend of mine here in New York
is, is his nephew actually, and and his is, is an is an
entertainment lawyer and is PaulMcCartney's lawyer as well.
But one of the things he does asas in his lawyerly duties is
(22:23):
manage Paul McCartney has a hugemusic library of things that
he's just acquired through the years.
And, and so it's a licensing library that anybody can use.
And, and my friend Lee is the one who manages that as part of
his responsibilities. And, and so in the past, he's
(22:46):
always offered to me when I've had other projects.
He's like, oh, if you need, if you need music like you just,
you know, find, if you can find something in the library, let me
know and we'll cut you a deal orwhatever.
He's been very generous about that.
But so I'd found one song that Iwas using and, and you know,
(23:07):
the, the, the, the world of music rights is so convoluted.
You know, there's publishing rights and then there's
performance rights. And, and, and so I couldn't,
they, I could get the publishingrights, but I couldn't get the
other half of the rights I needed that I, they weren't,
they were just not willing to even negotiate.
And so I kind of was stuck and, and I went back to the library
(23:32):
and I was just poking around and, you know, I just, I don't
know how I came across that or what made me think to even give
it a listen. But I just thought, oh, this
would be really, I think this would be great, but I didn't
really ever think that I would get away with it or, you know,
like, because it's always been really, there's like a ton of
really obscure stuff and a lot of like old Kingpin Alley stuff
(23:53):
that that he's collected. And so I just thought, well, so
I just asked and he was like, oh, sure, I'll ask Paul.
And then I don't know, you know,I got the go ahead.
And that was, yeah. So that was, it feels really
indulgent, but it's it's nice tohave been able to utilize it
(24:13):
and. Then and when people see the
film and then they hear the song, it's just amazing how well
the the lyrics work with the ideas in the movie.
It's just incredible. Yeah, it's funny.
Some people complain I've had nuts a lot, but there's a few
people would come up to me and say like, oh, I love the the
music, especially at the movie. I love the movie.
(24:33):
And you, you. I can tell they're typically
just like diehard Pete fans. And then they say it's happened
a couple times where they say, you know, but that thing at the
end, like it's really jarring. And I think they just want it to
be like the, the, the melancholyto never end, you know, like,
right, right. Well, it is a different mood,
but in a way I, I think the lyrics save it and and then it
(24:57):
puts you in a different kind of mood that feels appropriate for
for the ending of the film. Anyhow, nice score.
That, that, that's incredible. That's amazing that you did
that. Well, it, it, it's such a an
incredible film. What's it been like sharing this
movie with audiences? It's been great.
I mean, I, I, it's I, as I admitted, I, I, I wasn't a
(25:21):
gardener. I didn't really know.
I mean, I, I knew of Pete again by reputation and, and that he
was a big deal and whatever, butI didn't appreciate kind of what
that meant and nor did I really appreciate what, what, how big
gardening is. And so, you know, like it, it
was a as always, it was a struggle to get the film into
(25:46):
festivals or even just have people look at it or consider it
for distribution. And so I was going through that
struggle and I just kept thinking and, you know, having
made films about architecture, that it's such a niche thing.
And there are these small festivals that cater to that
subject matter that are great. And they've, I've shown most of
my films there and there's a nowkind of a circuit of them and
(26:08):
it's fun and it's, it's a reallynice way to sort of show the
film to appreciative audiences or audiences that know the
subject. And so I thought, well, maybe
that, you know, I'll just do thesame with this and, and move on.
And, and then I, I got involved with Jim Brown, who, who you
spoke to, but the, he, he offered to, to, to pick it up
(26:28):
for distribution, theatrical distribution.
And then he said, you know, I'm going to try and get it to show
it at Doc NYC, which is a big documentary festival here in New
York. And, and there was a little
like, maybe, maybe not, maybe maybe not.
And then finally they said yes. And, and it, you know, wasn't
like a feature then. It wasn't a competition or
(26:50):
anything like that, but it did. They ended up doing like 3 or 4
screenings and I think maybe to their surprise.
And then Jim turned that into getting a booking at the IFC,
which is the, you know, big independent theatre here and in
New York. And, and you know, that was
scheduled for opening night screening and Pete was going to
(27:14):
come into town. And we did, we did our best to
promote it. And, and I remember walking with
Pete up to the theater and, and the screening, maybe the first
screen. Oh, and they'd sold enough
tickets that they added a secondscreening.
And so the second screening was earlier, which, so maybe it was
at like 6 O clock or something. And we were walking down 6th
(27:34):
Ave. to the theater and and there was a line like around the
block. Wow.
Already at. 5:30 or 5:15 or something ridiculous and I just
thought is that could that really be for our film?
Like, and, you know, it's just like, that's when it really hit
me that like he's, you know, the, the often people will say,
(27:58):
oh, he's the rock star of gardening and but they really
mean like he is of such a feverish, you know, people are
so worked up about it and there's this.
And so the film ended up having,you know, it had a great run at
I see. And then it had a great
theatrical life that that, you know, is not normal for.
I mean, it's, it's hard to do for documentaries as as you
(28:20):
would know, but also it's not normal for a film that's kind of
about a, you know, it's not a fashion icon, it's not a music
and a famous musician. I mean, these are the things
that usually run in theaters and, and it did well.
And I think in part because there's a lot of people who love
gardening, there's a lot of people that love Pete and
there's A and, and there's not alot of films for those
(28:43):
audiences. So it's, it was kind of nice to
sort of strike that chord. Well, obviously.
Anyone who's a fan of gardening or Pete Will will love this
movie if they haven't seen it already.
But I am one of those people whodid not know much about the
subject and the thing that I just loved about this film and I
love about movies in general, about artists.
It is the way that you describe and, and have him describe his
(29:08):
process. It's it's really a great, great
movie about an artist, you know,someone who is able to create
something unlike anyone else and, and explains to to some
extent how he does it. And you really capture it and,
and you capture it in the right mood.
And it's, it's, it's quite amazing.
(29:29):
I think anyone would love to seethis movie who who just kind of
gets turned on by seeing how someone thinks and and creates
and and and does what they do ona very high level.
Well, that's great. I mean that really that's, that
was my intention or hope for thefilm.
(29:50):
I mean, it wasn't ever going to be a how to garden movie, you
know, I couldn't do that even ifI wanted to just 'cause I don't
know the subject well enough. But, but I do, I feel like
what's always motivated me and what I hope and I, I just have
had this lucky through certain coincidences, this access to
(30:11):
artists and, and, and of, of different media, including
designers and architects, that, that and, and to me, it's just
like I'm so enamoured of the creative process and I, I find
it so, such a celebration of being human that that's really
all I want to try and capture and convey and, and share.
(30:32):
I mean, you know, I, I, I'm lucky enough to get to go to
Pete's garden in Humalo or I'm lucky enough to be in Tiki Smith
studio, or I'm lucky enough to visit a building that's being
built, you know, by Diller Scafidio or something.
But that to share that and to and to and to celebrate what
sort of incredible process making something is that that's
(30:54):
really the that's the the best thing I it could do.
And so that that it works at that level too.
I think it's it's really that that's feels very gratifying.
Well, Thomas. I want to remind everyone that
your film Five Seasons The Gardens of Pete out off will be
showing on September 4th at the Long Island Museum.
(31:20):
It's being presented by the PortJefferson Arts Council and the
Long Island Museum and it's going to be playing at 7:00 on
September 4th. So I want to highly recommend
the film. Thomas it's really been a
pleasure speaking with you and hopefully we can talk again in
the future about some of your other movies that would.
Be great. I appreciate it and thanks.
(31:40):
It's been a lot of fun.
Hi, this is Tom Needham and on this edition of The Sounds of
Film we'll be speaking with the award-winning filmmaker Thomas
Piper, the director of five seasons, The Gardens of Pete
Aldolf. The film immerses viewers in the
artistry and vision of the worldrenowned garden designer Pete
(00:21):
Aldolf, offering a rare look at his creative process and
landmark projects, including NewYork's Highline.
A free public screening of the documentary will take place on
September 4th at 7:00 PM, presented by the Port Jefferson
Arts Council and the Long IslandMuseum, followed by a panel
discussion with local experts. Thomas, thank you so much for
(00:45):
joining us on The Sounds of Film.
Sure, thanks for having me. Man, I love this movie.
Tell me a little bit about what it was about Pete that convinced
you that you wanted to make a feature length documentary about
him. Yes.
Well, it didn't actually start out.
(01:06):
That wasn't my intention at at the start I'd I'd made, I've
made most of the films I've knewabout architecture or architects
and and designers. And so I'd done a film with the
architecture firm dealer Skip Video on Renfro and they were
the design architects for the Highline here in New York.
(01:26):
And so I'd spent a lot of time on the Highline, especially as
the second phase was just being open.
So I was sort of up there seeingthose it all come together and
shooting as the construction andinstallation was taking place.
And I, I just kind of thought the plants, that what was
(01:47):
happening with the plants was really interesting to me.
And, and I'm not, I mean, I always feel compelled to make
this disclosure, but I'm not a gardener really.
And so I didn't come at it from that perspective, but I just was
sort of fascinated by what was happening.
And I knew Pete, I knew him by reputation and I knew that he
was in charge of the planting design for the, for the
(02:09):
Highline. And so I, I managed to get an
introduction and, and for a minute I thought about maybe
seeing if he want to be interviewed for the film about
Taylor Swift video. And then that never came to
pass. But he and I met after that film
was completed and, and I just was asked, you know, I just told
him I, I thought that planting was really fascinating And I, I
(02:32):
thought there was something really interesting going on that
I didn't understand at all. And he was just really open to
discussing it and, and we got along pretty well.
And then he invited me to come see his garden in Holland and
Homelow. And so I just sort of planned a
trip And then I said, you know, maybe I could come and shoot it
and, you know, just see how it looks on film or, you know, see
(02:53):
what I get. And, but I, I kind of thought
maybe it would just be a short piece about his own garden,
which I, I, in, in talking to him, I sort of got the sense
that it was kind of more like a,I, I sort of created this
thought in my head that it was kind of like a, more like an
artist studio or a laboratory where he was trying to do things
that he then would take to public projects or bigger
(03:15):
projects, but it was a little more experimental.
And so I, we, I just showed up and we started shooting.
And it's just, it was pretty quick that it became apparent
that he just as a character was compelling enough that maybe
there there could be more to to just than just shooting his
garden and then the idea of the seasons.
(03:37):
And so it's sort of it's sort ofstarted to take on a larger
scope. But it was, you know, I guess I
would say it was really down to just sort of spending enough
time with him to realize like, he might actually carry a longer
film in a short film, really. You mentioned that you're not an
expert gardener when when you started to watch him work when
(03:58):
you were at the Highline. What was it that kind of got
your attention that interested you the most?
I, I think it was because I didn't actually ever see him
planting and, and it was more, Iguess it was probably more the
experience of what, what had already been open the first
(04:19):
phase, which is like the 1st 15 blocks or something of the
highlight from Gansevoort North.And, and it, it just, I don't
know. I mean, it was just, it felt
like there was something, the experience was really defined by
the planting and the fact that there were trees already up
(04:40):
there. That and the, and the way the
planting varied. So you know, what I came to
learn from from talking to both Pete and, and Jim Corner, the
landscape architect of the project, was that it was
intentionally designed to have these kind of different,
different ecosystems or landscapes as you move through
the highline, as you walk the Highline, you'd be passing
(05:02):
through a Meadow or a, a wooded area.
And so I just, you know, withoutknowing much about how one would
do that, I just suddenly found myself being so really moved by
it, but just curious to know more.
So you know it, and I would say even now, I mean, even for
(05:25):
people who I've come to know whoare serious gardeners and the
people who've worked with Pete and stuff, you know, there,
there's still a sense of this kind of mysterious thing that he
does that he's able to create. I think a lot of it is like the,
the, the density and the combinations of plants that he's
able to, to work that, that either people who I know know a
(05:47):
lot about plants will say like it would never occur to them
that that would even be possible.
Or just people looking at it from an aesthetics perspective
talk about like it's really unusual, you know, in the
context of other garden design or the history of garden design.
I mean, they're, you know, he's not, it's not out of the blue,
but it is kind of really pushingsome ideas further than than
(06:09):
other people had. I think it's it's one way to to
look at it and describe it. You mentioned that Pete's an
interesting character. For those people that haven't
seen the film yet, can you give our listeners just a little
sense about his character and and and what drew you to him as
a person and why you thought he would be an interesting person
(06:29):
to make a film about? Yes, I mean, I, I, the the most
succinct way, which I know sometimes, I mean he's laughs
at, but some sometimes considered to be, you know, I,
I, I guess the Dutch aren't often, you know, stereotyped or
(06:50):
or maybe they're stereotyped, but it's not a belittling thing.
But he's just, I think of him asvery Dutch.
So he's very, you know, like there's a certain way of being
very straightforward and, and, and speaking in a kind of very
direct way. And, and that that can come
(07:11):
across. I mean, I, I think when it is
sort of stereotypes, I think that thing tends to be like
it's, it's to, to people with some sort of, you know, used to
talking in circles or whatever the, the sensitivity to hearing
something, you know, being told something so direct can be hard
to take. But I think with, with him
talking about plants, it also kind of comes across as a little
(07:33):
enigmatic. You know that it's it it it
creates this kind of captivating.
You know, it's so direct that itdoesn't even it it kind of skips
right through any sort of explanation or or trying to
trying to make you understand what he's doing.
(07:53):
It. It comes across as very sort of
it's like a really concise language that, you know, like
really powerful poetry can have a writing or you know, like
Hemingway or something where it's just he's he's very concise
and and uses very few words. But when he's talking about
something like plants that he isjust so obsessed with and in
(08:14):
love with that it can really be it lands really well.
And I think it really lends itself especially to to film
where, you know, it's it's not along winded interview.
It's not, you know, that that and I try to edit it for for
being so not not a lot of talking in the film.
And so the way he can deliver very concise and slightly
(08:35):
enigmatic phrasing can it's, I think works really well.
Did you immediately envision five seasons as a film spanning
an entire year? I not well, I think when I when
it moved from being oh, maybe this doesn't just need to be
about a short film about his garden.
Then I then I did think and it, and it, it just became apparent.
(08:59):
I mean, he had invited me to come visit him and see his
garden in, in October, 'cause hewas doing a workshop there.
And, and, and that was, it was pretty apparent that like,
that's really his favorite time of year, which is, you know,
slightly, slightly out of sync with, I think, you know, what we
think of as typical the, the peak time in a garden when the
(09:22):
flowers are out in summer or late summer.
And, and so that was really interesting to me.
And then, and then I knew already from sort of having
known of him or read about him that he talks a lot about
plants, like choosing plants that also look good in winter
and how he leaves plants, plants, most of the perennials
(09:47):
and, and, and, and instead of cutting, you know, like the, the
typical cycle for a perennial garden is you, you, you planted.
They, they, they come up in the spring and they bloom and they
go through the summer in late fall, in the fall into late
fall. And then they, they go dormant.
And essentially at that point, traditionally you would just cut
(10:08):
it all back and let it, and essentially keep the plant, you
know, let it conserve energy. And then it comes up again in
the spring and it starts all over again.
But cutting back the gardens would would more normally happen
earlier in the winter and then that essentially do would become
the mulch for the overwintering.And but he doesn't like he he
(10:31):
cuts back his garden. And now that that's the trend in
all of his gardens, like here inthe highline, it's that that
that it doesn't happen until March, February or March.
And so there's actually a whole winter garden time where it's
just these plants. And then the plants are, you
know, a lot of what he's choosing and plants are ones
that have a kind of architectural shape or, or, or
(10:53):
very distinct silhouette in the winter.
You know, they're all kind of brown and, and there's no leaves
or flowers or anything going on,but it's, but they're the seed
heads or the, the stalks or the,the way things kind of, you
know, the grasses that have gonedry, the Russell and his, you
know, all of that's really, he, he thinks about that and does it
(11:16):
intentionally. So, so that made me think, Oh,
well, the winter, I've got to shoot winter.
And by then I was like, well, I'm just going to get every
season. And and and that became an idea
for how to structure structure the movie as well.
And it becomes very philosophical.
You know, it, he's talking aboutthese gardens, but you know, it
(11:37):
could be talking about life and humans and, and did did you
start to get a sense early on about some of the deeper themes
running through this movie? Yeah, I mean, I think that's
that's kind of, I guess what I was kind of alluding to with,
with the way, you know, finding the way he would talk very
captivating. And I, and I think some of that
(12:00):
is, you know, I, I, people will often joke that he's, you know,
he has a closer relationship with plants than people or
something, you know, I mean that, that he loves plants above
and beyond even loving people or, you know, whatever that
that's his real social milieu orsomething.
But he, I mean, I think it's clear that he has this intense
(12:23):
relationship with understanding plants and, and being wanting to
be as knowledgeable as he can about them.
But I think that also lent itself to the way in which he,
he's really facile about being able to equate, you know, plants
and people and making kind of analogies that that I think are
(12:44):
really moving. I mean, especially when you that
whole thing about thinking aboutplants as you go into winter and
then he's, you know, he sort of overlays the human lifespan and
he has that line that he says often about, you know, it's like
plants make us feel our own lifespan, but it but it happens
every year. And so we get to go through this
emotional cycle of of, of kind of birth and life and death
(13:09):
every year. And so, yeah, I, I think it's,
it's, yeah, that's all part of it.
I mean, he really, it just really, I think there's between
the creativity and the sort of artistry of what he's doing with
the gardens and then the fact that he is a fairly soulful
thinker about it as well. Literally those two things
together just made it feel like,oh, this could be really rich
(13:31):
for for a long time. You know, not just 20 minutes,
but 75 or whatever it ends up being.
And one of the things that makesthis film so great is that, and
this is not true of all documentaries, it seems like you
really made an effort to get an excellent film score for this
film. That really adds to the poetic
(13:53):
nature of the the movie. Can you tell me a little bit
about the music in this film andwhat your intent was?
Yeah, I mean that, that that wasreally I, it was just, I mean,
and maybe I've always tried to think about that.
I mean, I just, I, I'm a fucker for when music and and moving
(14:13):
images work well together. So I, I, I sort of think, I try
to be ambitious about that or, or, or really strive for that
and other projects. But this obviously just felt
like, oh God, this could really be something with, with these
such beautiful, you know, and, and moving and, and the whole
nature of the way that the gardens work 'cause they're not
(14:35):
just these static pictures or, you know, I mean, having shot a
lot of architecture prior to this, it was, you know, the
buildings maybe get shadow play or something like that, But
otherwise the buildings just kind of sit there and they don't
do anything. And so this felt like it was
really dynamic. And so it made me think a lot
about the music. But but the way the music came
about was a great is a, is a favorite story from the whole
(14:58):
experience. But I had I, you know, as, as I
was working on the editing, starting to work on the editing.
It's like you lay in scratch tracks like music that that I
knew of, that I thought my work that just pre recorded stuff
from mother and death or or whatever.
You can sort of keep the catalogof things music you you always
(15:19):
find interesting. And I've used a couple of pieces
from this band called Siga Ross,which is there from Iceland.
And when I so a lot of the film takes place, the the sort of the
centerpiece of the movie is the tracking, the installation of
(15:40):
the one garden for Hauser and Werf and in Somerset in England.
And so that was the place I keptcoming back to and spending a
lot of time at and, and, and because it's because Hauser and
Werth is an art gallery first and foremost, They this whole
thing they were creating in Somerset included a resident, an
artist's residency as well as a gallery and exhibition space.
(16:02):
And, and the artists in residence at the time that I was
there frequently. What was the, it's the Dieter
Roth Studio and Dieter Roth is no longer alive, but it's his
son and grandson. And they, Dieter Roth was Swiss,
but they, they, his son and grandson were born in Iceland
(16:22):
and they live in Iceland. And so, and it's a kind of
collective at this point now. So this whole crew of Icelandic
artists were there in residence and and they're they're wild
bunch and and the stories that already proceed like people were
like, Oh God, if you run into the Roths, you know, like it's
going to you're going to love them, but like be careful.
(16:46):
Like they're really crazy. And there were just hilarious
stories about things that they were shenanigans they were
getting up to. And but one of the things that
that the Roth studio does, and Ithink they've done it in a
number of housing worth locations, but they build a bar
and, and they far out of just a total collection of assemblage
(17:10):
of odd found objects and stuff and junk and, and, and it's,
it's pretty crazy and chaotic assemblage of stuff.
So one night I was there and I, I was talking to Odor Roth,
who's the grandson, and I was telling him about making the
movie. And he was like, oh God, Pete's
a great guy. And that sounds great.
And I was like, you know, I'm I,I'm, I need music for the film.
(17:33):
And I've been, you know, I know you're from Iceland and I've
been using music from Sigur Ross, the band.
And I thought, you know, maybe small place Iceland.
I thought maybe he could let me make an introduction or I could
find a way to ask him if I coulduse the music.
And then he immediately was like, oh, you don't want that
music. I was like, OK, And he said,
I've got the guy for you. And I'm like, great, this sounds
(17:56):
promising. And he then pointed to in in in
amongst the stuff that makes up the the bar that we were
standing at were like old video monitors that had just videos
looping on them. And most of them were just kind
of stuff they'd shot themselves of the studio, like making the
(18:20):
bar. But also just other kind of,
there was some stuff with fireworks and you know, like
just, they were just obviously had a camera and we were playing
around with it. And, and at one point there,
there was a, a guy in a, in a like a, a one piece like, you
know, construction suit or whatever.
And he was, he was flat out on the floor and it, and it looked
(18:44):
not so much like a nap as much as it's more like he just sort
of run out of steam from the, from imbibing or something.
Anyway, But, and so, and odor was like, that's your guy.
And I was like, OK, all right, that's, that's, that's yeah,
we'll see where this goes. But anyhow, he said, I'll, I'll
get in touch with him. He's not here now.
(19:05):
He's gone back to Iceland, but I'll put you in touch with him.
And, and he did, he made an introduction and then I never
heard back, you know, I never heard from the guy.
And I thought, oh, well, you know, maybe he's still sleeping
or whatever. And, but eventually he did
respond and I told him what I was looking for and he said, oh,
sure. And he just sent me like 3 CDs
(19:26):
worth of music, just just sent it to me.
He's like, yeah, use, use whatever you like.
And he is, he's a composer and Aand a pianist and he works a lot
with some another artist, WagnerCartinson, who, who does a lot
of musical composition works that it ends up in museums and
stuff. And so, I mean, he's an
incredible musician and, and themusic is really incredible.
(19:50):
And, and he just, I just was like, I just sort of had the run
of it. I could just pick and choose
what I wanted. And that, and that was the start
of working with actual music forthe film that I knew I could
keep and use. And that that was really the
start of it. But I did reach a point where I
kind of felt like I'd run out orI couldn't.
(20:14):
I didn't. Couldn't find anything else
amongst everything he'd sent me that might work.
And and then I asked him for more.
I thought, you know, do you haveany other things you could send
me or maybe would you be willingto score?
Like if I send you a scene, would you be willing to score?
This is actual composed to the picture.
And I never heard back from him.And so I was like, oh, well, I
(20:34):
guess that's it. And I just one of my best
friends here in New York is a musician as well.
And, and I was talking to him and he'd actually done some
scoring for me for past projects.
And I said, well, you know, I'vegot half the music basically
with, with this guy David, but Idon't, I need the rest.
And he took a listen to it. He's like, oh, I'd love to like
(20:55):
try and write stuff to match that or build on that or so then
he did. So he essentially was like a
two-part score, but it ended up working really, really great
together. I think.
I mean, I, I, I think it comes together really.
I agree. It's one of the best things I've
heard in a long time. I was also surprised at the end
of the movie. You don't expect this in a
(21:16):
documentary. All of a sudden the film ends
and then Paul McCartney comes onand, and I'll be honest, I've
heard that. Well, tell everybody what song
you you you have for the end of the movie.
Yeah, it's coming up. It's a the the Wings song.
It it, I've heard that song a million times.
(21:37):
But yeah, I don't know how. I never really just, I don't
think I ever really paid attention to the lyrics and and
I don't think I'll ever hear thesong the same now.
And you know, after watching your movie, it's incredible.
I'll have to. We'll have to let Sir Paul know
that it's now got a new association.
How did you get permission? For that, yeah, that.
(22:00):
Was I just happened to another friend of mine here in New York
is, is his nephew actually, and and his is, is an is an
entertainment lawyer and is PaulMcCartney's lawyer as well.
But one of the things he does asas in his lawyerly duties is
(22:23):
manage Paul McCartney has a hugemusic library of things that
he's just acquired through the years.
And, and so it's a licensing library that anybody can use.
And, and my friend Lee is the one who manages that as part of
his responsibilities. And, and so in the past, he's
(22:46):
always offered to me when I've had other projects.
He's like, oh, if you need, if you need music like you just,
you know, find, if you can find something in the library, let me
know and we'll cut you a deal orwhatever.
He's been very generous about that.
But so I'd found one song that Iwas using and, and you know,
(23:07):
the, the, the, the world of music rights is so convoluted.
You know, there's publishing rights and then there's
performance rights. And, and, and so I couldn't,
they, I could get the publishingrights, but I couldn't get the
other half of the rights I needed that I, they weren't,
they were just not willing to even negotiate.
And so I kind of was stuck and, and I went back to the library
(23:32):
and I was just poking around and, you know, I just, I don't
know how I came across that or what made me think to even give
it a listen. But I just thought, oh, this
would be really, I think this would be great, but I didn't
really ever think that I would get away with it or, you know,
like, because it's always been really, there's like a ton of
really obscure stuff and a lot of like old Kingpin Alley stuff
(23:53):
that that he's collected. And so I just thought, well, so
I just asked and he was like, oh, sure, I'll ask Paul.
And then I don't know, you know,I got the go ahead.
And that was, yeah. So that was, it feels really
indulgent, but it's it's nice tohave been able to utilize it
(24:13):
and. Then and when people see the
film and then they hear the song, it's just amazing how well
the the lyrics work with the ideas in the movie.
It's just incredible. Yeah, it's funny.
Some people complain I've had nuts a lot, but there's a few
people would come up to me and say like, oh, I love the the
music, especially at the movie. I love the movie.
(24:33):
And you, you. I can tell they're typically
just like diehard Pete fans. And then they say it's happened
a couple times where they say, you know, but that thing at the
end, like it's really jarring. And I think they just want it to
be like the, the, the melancholyto never end, you know, like,
right, right. Well, it is a different mood,
but in a way I, I think the lyrics save it and and then it
(24:57):
puts you in a different kind of mood that feels appropriate for
for the ending of the film. Anyhow, nice score.
That, that, that's incredible. That's amazing that you did
that. Well, it, it, it's such a an
incredible film. What's it been like sharing this
movie with audiences? It's been great.
I mean, I, I, it's I, as I admitted, I, I, I wasn't a
(25:21):
gardener. I didn't really know.
I mean, I, I knew of Pete again by reputation and, and that he
was a big deal and whatever, butI didn't appreciate kind of what
that meant and nor did I really appreciate what, what, how big
gardening is. And so, you know, like it, it
was a as always, it was a struggle to get the film into
(25:46):
festivals or even just have people look at it or consider it
for distribution. And so I was going through that
struggle and I just kept thinking and, you know, having
made films about architecture, that it's such a niche thing.
And there are these small festivals that cater to that
subject matter that are great. And they've, I've shown most of
my films there and there's a nowkind of a circuit of them and
(26:08):
it's fun and it's, it's a reallynice way to sort of show the
film to appreciative audiences or audiences that know the
subject. And so I thought, well, maybe
that, you know, I'll just do thesame with this and, and move on.
And, and then I, I got involved with Jim Brown, who, who you
spoke to, but the, he, he offered to, to, to pick it up
(26:28):
for distribution, theatrical distribution.
And then he said, you know, I'm going to try and get it to show
it at Doc NYC, which is a big documentary festival here in New
York. And, and there was a little
like, maybe, maybe not, maybe maybe not.
And then finally they said yes. And, and it, you know, wasn't
like a feature then. It wasn't a competition or
(26:50):
anything like that, but it did. They ended up doing like 3 or 4
screenings and I think maybe to their surprise.
And then Jim turned that into getting a booking at the IFC,
which is the, you know, big independent theatre here and in
New York. And, and you know, that was
scheduled for opening night screening and Pete was going to
(27:14):
come into town. And we did, we did our best to
promote it. And, and I remember walking with
Pete up to the theater and, and the screening, maybe the first
screen. Oh, and they'd sold enough
tickets that they added a secondscreening.
And so the second screening was earlier, which, so maybe it was
at like 6 O clock or something. And we were walking down 6th
(27:34):
Ave. to the theater and and there was a line like around the
block. Wow.
Already at. 5:30 or 5:15 or something ridiculous and I just
thought is that could that really be for our film?
Like, and, you know, it's just like, that's when it really hit
me that like he's, you know, the, the often people will say,
(27:58):
oh, he's the rock star of gardening and but they really
mean like he is of such a feverish, you know, people are
so worked up about it and there's this.
And so the film ended up having,you know, it had a great run at
I see. And then it had a great
theatrical life that that, you know, is not normal for.
I mean, it's, it's hard to do for documentaries as as you
(28:20):
would know, but also it's not normal for a film that's kind of
about a, you know, it's not a fashion icon, it's not a music
and a famous musician. I mean, these are the things
that usually run in theaters and, and it did well.
And I think in part because there's a lot of people who love
gardening, there's a lot of people that love Pete and
there's A and, and there's not alot of films for those
(28:43):
audiences. So it's, it was kind of nice to
sort of strike that chord. Well, obviously.
Anyone who's a fan of gardening or Pete Will will love this
movie if they haven't seen it already.
But I am one of those people whodid not know much about the
subject and the thing that I just loved about this film and I
love about movies in general, about artists.
It is the way that you describe and, and have him describe his
(29:08):
process. It's it's really a great, great
movie about an artist, you know,someone who is able to create
something unlike anyone else and, and explains to to some
extent how he does it. And you really capture it and,
and you capture it in the right mood.
And it's, it's, it's quite amazing.
(29:29):
I think anyone would love to seethis movie who who just kind of
gets turned on by seeing how someone thinks and and creates
and and and does what they do ona very high level.
Well, that's great. I mean that really that's, that
was my intention or hope for thefilm.
(29:50):
I mean, it wasn't ever going to be a how to garden movie, you
know, I couldn't do that even ifI wanted to just 'cause I don't
know the subject well enough. But, but I do, I feel like
what's always motivated me and what I hope and I, I just have
had this lucky through certain coincidences, this access to
(30:11):
artists and, and, and of, of different media, including
designers and architects, that, that and, and to me, it's just
like I'm so enamoured of the creative process and I, I find
it so, such a celebration of being human that that's really
all I want to try and capture and convey and, and share.
(30:32):
I mean, you know, I, I, I'm lucky enough to get to go to
Pete's garden in Humalo or I'm lucky enough to be in Tiki Smith
studio, or I'm lucky enough to visit a building that's being
built, you know, by Diller Scafidio or something.
But that to share that and to and to and to celebrate what
sort of incredible process making something is that that's
(30:54):
really the that's the the best thing I it could do.
And so that that it works at that level too.
I think it's it's really that that's feels very gratifying.
Well, Thomas. I want to remind everyone that
your film Five Seasons The Gardens of Pete out off will be
showing on September 4th at the Long Island Museum.
(31:20):
It's being presented by the PortJefferson Arts Council and the
Long Island Museum and it's going to be playing at 7:00 on
September 4th. So I want to highly recommend
the film. Thomas it's really been a
pleasure speaking with you and hopefully we can talk again in
the future about some of your other movies that would.
Be great. I appreciate it and thanks.
(31:40):
It's been a lot of fun.
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