Want to unlock the future of HR Tech trends? Ryan Leary and Brian Fink engage in insightful conversations with HR experts Martin Burns, GM of Americas at Udder and Evan Herman Sourcing Recruiter at Hermanomics.
Together, they navigate the trending waves in HR tech, discuss the effectiveness of skills-based hiring, and predict future industry trends. Immerse yourself in the fast-paced evolution of talent intelligence, the key role of learning adaptability, and the rise of innovative sourcing tools.
Special mini series recorded with Oleeo at HR Tech 2023 with hosts Ryan Leary, Brian Fink, and Shally Steckerl.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to
Recruiting Daily Sourcing Schoolpodcast.
I'm Brian Fink, he's Ryan Learyand we are sponsored here today
at the Olio booth, where we arecoming to you live from the
floor of HR Tech in Las Vegas,we are joined by not one but two
guests.
We've got Martin Burns, who Iknow everybody knows he is HR
famous.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yes, I just called you out on that.
You didn't know him no.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I knew him, I've read his stuff.
I just have never met him.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I was like Martin Burns you're on the bet.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I was like we're in the booth, we're doing this
thing and we're joined by EvanHerman from Hermanomics.
Hey everybody, what's going on?
Party people?
What's the vibe on the floor?
Who wants to take a stab atthat?
It's busy.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
A good way.
It's not as packed as it hasbeen sometimes, but as far as
conversations and need and allthat is to come out.
So there's a lot of buzzhappening.
There's a lot of goodconversations.
I think we're back.
I think we're back.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We're free again.
Okay, so talking about beingback, this is actually my first
HR Tech.
I think this is Evan's first HRTech.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
No, hold on, hold on.
This is your first.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
HR Tech For the first time.
And yeah, because last year,when we were going to come do
this, I was in the process ofnot knowing if I was getting
fired or whatever at Twitter.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I did not know, this was your first HR Tech.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, you need to walk the floor and go see all
this way and go get some goodstuff.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It's only for Maddie.
So, evan, you've done six.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes, this is my sixth leaning just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Everybody getting close to those mics.
It's my sixth Awesome, allright, so Ryan is counting on
his fingers 14.
Wow, it's like teenagers up inthe room.
The 16.
Incredible 16.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I've been the more HRTX's than your daughter's been
alive, maybe 17.
Yeah, sure Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Okay, so Ryan, tom Martin, you're saying that it's
back.
Right, and this is my firstyear.
What was the topic that wastalked about in 2022 that did
not make it to the floor in 2023?
Interesting question.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Well, it's generative AI, but, that said, ai it
always been like a buzzword fora decade now in HR Tech, so
that's probably the biggestthing that I'm seeing.
That is, skills.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Skills Everybody's got skills.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Everybody understands how to do it.
Most of them can't, but this istypical of the industry.
There's always something likethat happens wherever it gets
busy.
You talk to them in a phraseand then it goes away, but
hopefully it leaves behind somepositive techs, some positive
change.
But so right now the zeitgeistis skills in AI or generative AI
(02:42):
, I guess.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Okay, all right, evan .
What about you?
What are you hearing on thefloor?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
What I'm seeing a lot besides what Martin already
mentioned about gender and AI,etc.
Is a lot about talentrediscovery and leveraging what
you already have in yourexisting database and your
existing tools and getting moreout of it.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Oh, okay, that's interesting.
That is the second time todaythat I've had a conversation
about talent rediscovery.
I mean, personally, I thinkthat retention is the new
recruiting, about how you'regonna go deep in your own
organization and focus oninternal mobility.
But, as Ryan said, I haven'tmade it around the floor to kind
of pick up on that.
So let's go back to this topicof generative AI.
(03:24):
It's already been established,or there's a lot of evidence and
I just put that in quotes thatit's gonna make recruiters more
productive.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I thought you were doing it, say evidence, Evidence
.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
By the way for everyone, brian uses air quotes.
This is a podcast, I know, Iknow.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It's not a bit easy.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
He points.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
he uses air quotes, so I've got a question.
Is we talk about it creating abetter recruiter experience?
What is it gonna do for acandidate experience?
Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, I have a bunch Like two things.
First, I don't think that wereally understand that
candidates can automate stufftoo, and they are.
So what's coming?
It was in the Commedist producesoon.
There's a huge volume ofapplicants just over and over
and over again because they'veautomated their applying process
on their side.
So we probably should thinkabout that too.
But in terms of, I don't thinkmost organizations really got
(04:21):
anywhere near ready for theautomation they claim they want,
because they aren't sure whatto automate.
They haven't done really deepprocess mapping yet.
They haven't figured out whattheir actual organization's
doing on a day-to-day basis whenit comes to hiring.
So they assume the hiringmanager following the current
process, everything's fine.
Reality is, most hiringmanagers immediately break the
process and that function thatworks for them.
So until you go through and talkto all your hiring managers
(04:43):
every single one of them groupsand say when you get a resume,
what do you do physically withit?
Like you print it, you email it, how do you email it?
You know what.
Do you use Gmail?
Do you use the corporate?
Do you use the CRM to gothrough?
How do you move things around?
And if you can get them to tellyou the truth, you can figure
out where everything's going toget screwed up, and once you
have that map built, you thencan fix it.
You can optimize.
I wave my hands around a lotbecause I do that it's all good,
(05:05):
we're in a video podcast now.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, there we go.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
But the idea, though, is that until you figure out
foundationally, what's actuallyhappened at your organization,
you can't fix any of yourproblems, because you don't know
where they are.
Yet you can't throw a I atstuff until you actually
understand what you're throwingit at, because otherwise you
just make your problems fasterand smarter, supposedly.
That's really Garbage in,garbage out, yeah yeah, yeah, or
you're fixing the wrong problem.
Really You're pushing it.
(05:30):
You're pushing them one thingand you're causing a bubble
somewhere else and then it putspop up.
So, first thing, getfoundational, figure out your
and also your data mapping,figure data mapping out and map
all your data and how to applyit to your processes.
And then you can look and sayhere's where we can fix this.
We need a CRM or we need asource and tool or we need
training.
But until you do that, you'rejust buying buzzwords and random
(05:52):
technology and helping you fixthe problem that you are quite
sure what's causing it, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So, martin, is there a technology that's on the floor
today that you think is gonnago away?
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Well, I'll let them eventually.
But that's entropy.
I don't wanna jump out theresay that.
But yeah, I don't wanna callpeople out, but I think there is
.
I think the skills buzz isgonna die down.
Because we are there yet and wedon't understand it yet.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Evan is shaking his head and affirmative with you.
Evan, you wanna jump in hereabout the skills buzz?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, absolutely, it's been a buzzword for kind of
years and I think to me anygood recruiter in recruiting
organization they've kind ofalready been doing that, maybe
just not by name or maybe notconsciously.
And also personally, I thinkthat it doesn't go far enough.
(06:45):
Skills-based hiring anyways,that if you have the experience,
you presumably also have theskills.
And I think we all have seenthe shortcomings of that and you
actually need to do whatshortcomings?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
with skill-based hiring is because I'm sitting
here and I'm thinking and I'mkind of defensive about this is
that I like the fact that I workfor an organization where we
focus on skills-based hiring.
We don't focus on people whohave quote unquote a degree
right, that is a preferred, thatis not a required, but skills
like knowing Python or knowingJava or making those commits.
Those are skills that we canlook at and that we can see in
(07:24):
their GitHub and Stack Overflowprofiles, that we can speak to
and we can hire for those skills.
Now, on the flip side, I'm nothiring for salespeople, so I
don't know that I can see into asalesperson's skill-based Maybe
skills has limitations to techor to nursing or to areas where
quote unquote there is proof inthe pudding right.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yes, I absolutely agree with you on that.
What I was pointing out andwhat I meant was that like if
you just see on a resume,somebody says they have those
skills, so it's more just hiringKeyword yeah, on paper, like I
have those skills.
Well, how have you used thoseskills?
Are you actually good at that?
Are you actually expert at that, or do you just nominally have
(08:07):
that skills?
In that sense, hiring by skillsversus based on credentials or
just nominal experience is nodifferent than the predecessor
to skills-based hiring.
It's just rebrandingexperience-based hiring and then
no longer requiring a degree.
Okay.
So what I mean is how have youactually used that?
(08:29):
And so what I call it and Ipartially borrowed from Lou
Adler is success-based hiring.
How have you actuallysuccessfully applied those
skills?
And in learning how they'veactually made accomplishments,
you've seen how they've actuallyapplied those skills
successfully.
So it's taking real skillsbased on hearing to the next
(08:51):
level.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
You know Adam Posner.
In his podcast, the POSCAST,Posner had a.
He posited the question that weshould be asking instead of you
know, tell me about the hardestthing that you've done the one
Lou Adler question.
We should be asking what impactdid you make on the business?
And that that's universal,whether you're hiring for sales,
whether you're hiring formarketing, whether you're hiring
(09:13):
for IT, or I made a referenceto medical Ryan.
What do you think there, bro?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I wasn't paying attention.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Okay, bro, I'm good with that.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
You just lull into sleep the sound of my voice.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's all good.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
He's here to look pretty.
That's all it is.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I was still thinking about Evan's previous point
around skills based hiring andthinking back to our
conversation with Alper.
Oh yeah, find him.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
yeah, sure, yeah, find him.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And he was talking about and you know some of the
abilities that they now have,where you know maybe skill
number or skill set A is whatyou're thinking.
They're able to associate B, cand D with that and then pull
that back in based on where theywork, who they've worked for,
who they reported to all thatinformation and, I think, as a
(09:59):
in the recruiting process anyway.
I think that's incrediblypowerful.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Oh, I think that was super powerful, Like he made me,
Alper made me sit up and learnsomething real quick he did.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
And I think part of it too is and I'm with you,
Brian, on the, on the notlooking at degrees, and part of
that I mean it's more about.
I think it's just.
It's a bit so fuzzy that wedon't know what we're doing.
A lot of these organizationswould not do that but they're
throwing money at it.
And I was worried about that, soI think that'll die down a bit.
I think we'll still stay withthe idea, though, that you know
your experience matters.
(10:30):
Your degree is less important.
Based on if your experience canmake it, it shows that you can
do the job.
But also, I think we can startlooking more at not just the
skills you have, but yourability to gain new skills.
Ooh, okay, that's what I thinkis because you're hiring for
some of their future work, nottheir past.
You can build on the funniestskills, but the ability to learn
(10:50):
and I'm not talking like it'sevidenced by degrees, but see
the ability to learn and developand grow your career and who
you are that, to me, sets andpredicts that you keep doing
that.
So wherever you go next, you'regoing to pick up new skills,
because things constantly change, especially now.
So if you're hiring a softwareengineer, never hire a software
engineer, because they know yourcurrent tech stack really well.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
What are they doing next?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Yeah, hire them, if they can, if I figure out how
quickly they'll learn new techstacks, because you may change
your entire stack in threemonths.
And then where do you hireeveryone?
Or take those who have andtrain them in new technology?
I think the second option is alot easier If they can learn.
That's the key thing yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
So going to that?
Should we be hiring for culturefit?
No, I think that's different.
I think it's more about Well,what if it's a culture of
lifelong learning?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Well, sure, that's a great overlap, but I do think
it's either, because I thinkboth matter.
I think looking at culturematters, but also the risk of
culture is you can justbasically hyper-excelerate your
homogenized environment.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
So you can hyper-excelerate, yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, you can basically just make things worse
, faster and faster, because ifyour culture is not a good
culture, yeah, to add on whatMartin just said, I think
instead of culture-basedalignment, which often produces
some diametrical debate, Forthose of you who are watching
the podcast I just made she justmade a fist bump, okay.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Yeah, but it gets kind of heated on that.
What's more important is notare you culturally aligned, but
are you aligned with the missionof the company?
Okay, and can you adapt as themission changes?
Can you adapt to that andscreening for that?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well then, that actually goes to the book is the
Alliance it's an orange cover,it's by Reid Hoffman and I can't
remember the co-author of itwhere he talks about tours of
duty and the ability to changeyour mind, I know the book.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, it's Reid Hoffman and somebody else.
I can see the cover.
Yeah, yeah, he said orange.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I was like, oh yeah sure I've read up on that.
Yeah, that's a book.
I think that was inserted inthe nomenclature about 2016,
2015.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Yeah, that sounds right yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, so tour of duty Like that, like that, a lot,
all right.
Well, let me ask We've askedabout takeaways that you've had
from the event, but we haven'tasked, and we asked about 2022
to 2023.
What do you see taking placefrom 2023 to 2024?
What's next?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Hmm.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I think it's sort of a magic baseball.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, well, you can collect your thoughts.
So I'm in the market a lot,talking to both sides, both the
vendors themselves and thebuyers, the talent acquisition
teams and most of the largeenterprises and I actually
posted about this earlier thisweek that I think we're in the
earliest stages of actually theslow death of talent
(13:53):
intelligence as a standalone andseparate tool.
I think they're being unified bysome of these great AI sourcing
tools that are doing in livetime what these talent
intelligent tools say.
They need 48 hours minimumturnaround time to do on their
custom reports and if they don'tstart adding and becoming
(14:16):
sourcing tools themselves, thenall they are is just more data
without actually anything actualto do about it, whereas if
you're sourcing tool givingpeople actual people to contact
and the data like this is wherethe female Java developers are
most best concentrated in thesecities and then actually giving
(14:40):
you specific people to contact,that's a lot better than just
you know.
Austin, texas has 10,000 femaleJava developers.
San Francisco has 20,000 thingslike that, and I think and I've
seen this with actual buyers inactual demos talking about
dropping these talentintelligent tools and using that
spend towards sourcing tools.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Martin, what are you seeing out?
Speaker 4 (15:04):
there.
That's interesting.
I actually want to build alittle bit because I think it's
interesting, if you don't mind.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So I was looking at have you seen Claire's new tool.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
So Wilson HHG's that they bought Claire last year.
Claire, it's phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We had Mark Mape's on .
We should probably have Michaelon, because Michael is the yeah
.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Michael and I went and talked to like we just we,
he and I are like woo together,so we got weird in a good way,
but they're building a.
Really they've got a reallyinteresting build to generate
Almost a couple seconds of laborin the next report.
That would take an analyst twomonths to build like that.
So take that to your point.
I love what you're saying andthe next logical step is to say
(15:47):
here's this many in SanFrancisco and here's where they
are.
Here's their emails, here'stheir phone number and we've
created the.
Oh, here's 20,000.
Here's the ones we know arequalified based on our you know,
data set and here's theirinformation.
That's a phenomenal way to dothat.
I love that.
That's really cool.
So who's actually doing that?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Well, it's coming about by someone.
Oh, I see there's a twinkle in.
There's a twinkle in Evan's eye.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Well, I can't yeah, I can't disclose who's doing that
.
Whoever it is, we'll find out.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, let's just say there's a couple of large
financial services companiesthat are strongly considering
doing that, and that's what ledme.
I don't do hot takes, I do realtakes from real situations, and
if these companies are thinkingabout it, then the others are
soon to follow, and that's why Ifeel confident in that
prediction.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah, that's a good point, that's great.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
What I'm saying is talent intelligence.
I don't want anyone tomisunderstand me.
It's not dying.
I think that as the more andmore revenue goes towards
getting talent intelligence fromthese sourcing tools, they'll
acquire or merge with the talentintelligence tools.
They won't be able to survivejust being a separate talent
intelligence tool.
They got to be able to do morefor their clients and it's
(17:06):
probably going to be by beingacquired or merging.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Okay, all right.
So 2024 acquires and mergers alittle bit of the disposition
and change in terms of talents,intelligence and its mashup with
sourcing.
Martin, what do you got for2024?
What's on top?
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Yeah, so the building on the M&A PC is mentioned.
I think we're going to see someactivity in that level this
year because there's been.
This is typical.
When you have an economicdownturn, something weird
happens, that you get like whathappened with COVID.
Just briefly, when everyonewent home, people start building
point solutions at home as theycame and they're bored and they
have things to do and new ideas.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So we have a lot of those floating around, right now
.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
But then you start seeing acquisitions happening.
We saw this are happeningalready.
I think we'll see more thisyear and next year.
Actually, it's just theindustry kind of pulls together
a bit.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Okay, all right, well , we oh.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Ryan, one thing we didn't do.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Ryan, what's up?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I don't think we went through what each of these
gentlemen do.
Oh, you know what?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
That's a good point.
We jumped right into it Like Igot excited because of who we
were partying with.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So, martin, you've recently joined, I am.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
GM of.
Well, actually, because of lackof a comma on my name tag, you
can't see a podcast.
People are old, but it saysMartin Burns GM dash America's
utter, you're America's utter.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Which I think.
Like I said, I think it's Texasor possibly Mexico.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Florida something else?
Oh, oh, oh Shh.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Martin Burns entered the chat.
What is utter?
Speaker 4 (18:30):
The utter is a UK based consultancy that focuses
on, well, all things TA reallyin HR.
So everything fromimplementation, some
integrations as well, frankly,with vendors On the vendor side
go to market strategy, thosekind of pieces.
But on the client buyer side, alot of process work, a lot of
the good stuff coming in helpingto figure out the big problems,
helping them implement newtechnologies, number of really
(18:53):
strong partnerships over inEurope high bob, smart
recruiters, a bunch of othersand I started with these guys
two weeks ago and they want toexpand, bring the service levels
to the Americas, and they'reclients who, where they work
with all the love of them theyare renowned as being probably
the best consultancy in Europeas far as quality goes, and so
we want to bring that here,maintain that and build up the
(19:14):
same service offering forclients in the States and help
them with their implementationsacross various platforms that
serve an SI, as well as buildingup some branding and creative
abilities to our clients whowant to help them build career
aspects for their clients.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Cool, cool.
And Evan, what about you?
Give us a 30,000 foot viewabout what it is that you do in
the TA space?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Sure, I do what I call TAP Intro.
My company name is Hermonomicsand I'm a talent acquisition
partner providing introductionsto talent acquisition tools.
So I'm a matchmaker for toolsinstead of people.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
Okay there, and people can be tools too, though,
so that could work in bothdirections.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
That is true, that is true.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Oh I should probably drop by email too.
I guess it's martin at udderrox.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
All right.
Well, hey, I appreciateeverybody being on the show
today.
Thank you for giving voice towhat's going on at HR Tech.
I'm Ryan, he's Brian.
We are brought to you by Olioat wait.
Wait, did I say that wrong Tobackwards.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
She's Ryan.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I'm Brian.
We're brought to you by Oliohere on the floor at Recruiting
Daily's Sourcing School Podcast.
Thanks so much.
Listed throughout this podcast,please remember.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to
Recruiting Daily Sourcing Schoolpodcast.
I'm Brian Fink, he's Ryan Learyand we are sponsored here today
at the Olio booth, where we arecoming to you live from the
floor of HR Tech in Las Vegas,we are joined by not one but two
guests.
We've got Martin Burns, who Iknow everybody knows he is HR
famous.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yes, I just called you out on that.
You didn't know him no.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I knew him, I've read his stuff.
I just have never met him.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I was like Martin Burns you're on the bet.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I was like we're in the booth, we're doing this
thing and we're joined by EvanHerman from Hermanomics.
Hey everybody, what's going on?
Party people?
What's the vibe on the floor?
Who wants to take a stab atthat?
It's busy.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
A good way.
It's not as packed as it hasbeen sometimes, but as far as
conversations and need and allthat is to come out.
So there's a lot of buzzhappening.
There's a lot of goodconversations.
I think we're back.
I think we're back.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We're free again.
Okay, so talking about beingback, this is actually my first
HR Tech.
I think this is Evan's first HRTech.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
No, hold on, hold on.
This is your first.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
HR Tech For the first time.
And yeah, because last year,when we were going to come do
this, I was in the process ofnot knowing if I was getting
fired or whatever at Twitter.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I did not know, this was your first HR Tech.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, you need to walk the floor and go see all
this way and go get some goodstuff.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It's only for Maddie.
So, evan, you've done six.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes, this is my sixth leaning just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Everybody getting close to those mics.
It's my sixth Awesome, allright, so Ryan is counting on
his fingers 14.
Wow, it's like teenagers up inthe room.
The 16.
Incredible 16.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I've been the more HRTX's than your daughter's been
alive, maybe 17.
Yeah, sure Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Okay, so Ryan, tom Martin, you're saying that it's
back.
Right, and this is my firstyear.
What was the topic that wastalked about in 2022 that did
not make it to the floor in 2023?
Interesting question.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Well, it's generative AI, but, that said, ai it
always been like a buzzword fora decade now in HR Tech, so
that's probably the biggestthing that I'm seeing.
That is, skills.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Skills Everybody's got skills.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Everybody understands how to do it.
Most of them can't, but this istypical of the industry.
There's always something likethat happens wherever it gets
busy.
You talk to them in a phraseand then it goes away, but
hopefully it leaves behind somepositive techs, some positive
change.
But so right now the zeitgeistis skills in AI or generative AI
(02:42):
, I guess.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Okay, all right, evan .
What about you?
What are you hearing on thefloor?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
What I'm seeing a lot besides what Martin already
mentioned about gender and AI,etc.
Is a lot about talentrediscovery and leveraging what
you already have in yourexisting database and your
existing tools and getting moreout of it.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Oh, okay, that's interesting.
That is the second time todaythat I've had a conversation
about talent rediscovery.
I mean, personally, I thinkthat retention is the new
recruiting, about how you'regonna go deep in your own
organization and focus oninternal mobility.
But, as Ryan said, I haven'tmade it around the floor to kind
of pick up on that.
So let's go back to this topicof generative AI.
(03:24):
It's already been established,or there's a lot of evidence and
I just put that in quotes thatit's gonna make recruiters more
productive.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I thought you were doing it, say evidence, Evidence
.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
By the way for everyone, brian uses air quotes.
This is a podcast, I know, Iknow.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It's not a bit easy.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
He points.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
he uses air quotes, so I've got a question.
Is we talk about it creating abetter recruiter experience?
What is it gonna do for acandidate experience?
Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, I have a bunch Like two things.
First, I don't think that wereally understand that
candidates can automate stufftoo, and they are.
So what's coming?
It was in the Commedist producesoon.
There's a huge volume ofapplicants just over and over
and over again because they'veautomated their applying process
on their side.
So we probably should thinkabout that too.
But in terms of, I don't thinkmost organizations really got
(04:21):
anywhere near ready for theautomation they claim they want,
because they aren't sure whatto automate.
They haven't done really deepprocess mapping yet.
They haven't figured out whattheir actual organization's
doing on a day-to-day basis whenit comes to hiring.
So they assume the hiringmanager following the current
process, everything's fine.
Reality is, most hiringmanagers immediately break the
process and that function thatworks for them.
So until you go through and talkto all your hiring managers
(04:43):
every single one of them groupsand say when you get a resume,
what do you do physically withit?
Like you print it, you email it, how do you email it?
You know what.
Do you use Gmail?
Do you use the corporate?
Do you use the CRM to gothrough?
How do you move things around?
And if you can get them to tellyou the truth, you can figure
out where everything's going toget screwed up, and once you
have that map built, you thencan fix it.
You can optimize.
I wave my hands around a lotbecause I do that it's all good,
(05:05):
we're in a video podcast now.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, there we go.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
But the idea, though, is that until you figure out
foundationally, what's actuallyhappened at your organization,
you can't fix any of yourproblems, because you don't know
where they are.
Yet you can't throw a I atstuff until you actually
understand what you're throwingit at, because otherwise you
just make your problems fasterand smarter, supposedly.
That's really Garbage in,garbage out, yeah yeah, yeah, or
you're fixing the wrong problem.
Really You're pushing it.
(05:30):
You're pushing them one thingand you're causing a bubble
somewhere else and then it putspop up.
So, first thing, getfoundational, figure out your
and also your data mapping,figure data mapping out and map
all your data and how to applyit to your processes.
And then you can look and sayhere's where we can fix this.
We need a CRM or we need asource and tool or we need
training.
But until you do that, you'rejust buying buzzwords and random
(05:52):
technology and helping you fixthe problem that you are quite
sure what's causing it, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So, martin, is there a technology that's on the floor
today that you think is gonnago away?
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Well, I'll let them eventually.
But that's entropy.
I don't wanna jump out theresay that.
But yeah, I don't wanna callpeople out, but I think there is
.
I think the skills buzz isgonna die down.
Because we are there yet and wedon't understand it yet.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Evan is shaking his head and affirmative with you.
Evan, you wanna jump in hereabout the skills buzz?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, absolutely, it's been a buzzword for kind of
years and I think to me anygood recruiter in recruiting
organization they've kind ofalready been doing that, maybe
just not by name or maybe notconsciously.
And also personally, I thinkthat it doesn't go far enough.
(06:45):
Skills-based hiring anyways,that if you have the experience,
you presumably also have theskills.
And I think we all have seenthe shortcomings of that and you
actually need to do whatshortcomings?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
with skill-based hiring is because I'm sitting
here and I'm thinking and I'mkind of defensive about this is
that I like the fact that I workfor an organization where we
focus on skills-based hiring.
We don't focus on people whohave quote unquote a degree
right, that is a preferred, thatis not a required, but skills
like knowing Python or knowingJava or making those commits.
Those are skills that we canlook at and that we can see in
(07:24):
their GitHub and Stack Overflowprofiles, that we can speak to
and we can hire for those skills.
Now, on the flip side, I'm nothiring for salespeople, so I
don't know that I can see into asalesperson's skill-based Maybe
skills has limitations to techor to nursing or to areas where
quote unquote there is proof inthe pudding right.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yes, I absolutely agree with you on that.
What I was pointing out andwhat I meant was that like if
you just see on a resume,somebody says they have those
skills, so it's more just hiringKeyword yeah, on paper, like I
have those skills.
Well, how have you used thoseskills?
Are you actually good at that?
Are you actually expert at that, or do you just nominally have
(08:07):
that skills?
In that sense, hiring by skillsversus based on credentials or
just nominal experience is nodifferent than the predecessor
to skills-based hiring.
It's just rebrandingexperience-based hiring and then
no longer requiring a degree.
Okay.
So what I mean is how have youactually used that?
(08:29):
And so what I call it and Ipartially borrowed from Lou
Adler is success-based hiring.
How have you actuallysuccessfully applied those
skills?
And in learning how they'veactually made accomplishments,
you've seen how they've actuallyapplied those skills
successfully.
So it's taking real skillsbased on hearing to the next
(08:51):
level.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
You know Adam Posner.
In his podcast, the POSCAST,Posner had a.
He posited the question that weshould be asking instead of you
know, tell me about the hardestthing that you've done the one
Lou Adler question.
We should be asking what impactdid you make on the business?
And that that's universal,whether you're hiring for sales,
whether you're hiring formarketing, whether you're hiring
(09:13):
for IT, or I made a referenceto medical Ryan.
What do you think there, bro?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I wasn't paying attention.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Okay, bro, I'm good with that.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
You just lull into sleep the sound of my voice.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's all good.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
He's here to look pretty.
That's all it is.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I was still thinking about Evan's previous point
around skills based hiring andthinking back to our
conversation with Alper.
Oh yeah, find him.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
yeah, sure, yeah, find him.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And he was talking about and you know some of the
abilities that they now have,where you know maybe skill
number or skill set A is whatyou're thinking.
They're able to associate B, cand D with that and then pull
that back in based on where theywork, who they've worked for,
who they reported to all thatinformation and, I think, as a
(09:59):
in the recruiting process anyway.
I think that's incrediblypowerful.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Oh, I think that was super powerful, Like he made me,
Alper made me sit up and learnsomething real quick he did.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
And I think part of it too is and I'm with you,
Brian, on the, on the notlooking at degrees, and part of
that I mean it's more about.
I think it's just.
It's a bit so fuzzy that wedon't know what we're doing.
A lot of these organizationswould not do that but they're
throwing money at it.
And I was worried about that, soI think that'll die down a bit.
I think we'll still stay withthe idea, though, that you know
your experience matters.
(10:30):
Your degree is less important.
Based on if your experience canmake it, it shows that you can
do the job.
But also, I think we can startlooking more at not just the
skills you have, but yourability to gain new skills.
Ooh, okay, that's what I thinkis because you're hiring for
some of their future work, nottheir past.
You can build on the funniestskills, but the ability to learn
(10:50):
and I'm not talking like it'sevidenced by degrees, but see
the ability to learn and developand grow your career and who
you are that, to me, sets andpredicts that you keep doing
that.
So wherever you go next, you'regoing to pick up new skills,
because things constantly change, especially now.
So if you're hiring a softwareengineer, never hire a software
engineer, because they know yourcurrent tech stack really well.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
What are they doing next?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Yeah, hire them, if they can, if I figure out how
quickly they'll learn new techstacks, because you may change
your entire stack in threemonths.
And then where do you hireeveryone?
Or take those who have andtrain them in new technology?
I think the second option is alot easier If they can learn.
That's the key thing yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
So going to that?
Should we be hiring for culturefit?
No, I think that's different.
I think it's more about Well,what if it's a culture of
lifelong learning?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Well, sure, that's a great overlap, but I do think
it's either, because I thinkboth matter.
I think looking at culturematters, but also the risk of
culture is you can justbasically hyper-excelerate your
homogenized environment.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
So you can hyper-excelerate, yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, you can basically just make things worse
, faster and faster, because ifyour culture is not a good
culture, yeah, to add on whatMartin just said, I think
instead of culture-basedalignment, which often produces
some diametrical debate, Forthose of you who are watching
the podcast I just made she justmade a fist bump, okay.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Yeah, but it gets kind of heated on that.
What's more important is notare you culturally aligned, but
are you aligned with the missionof the company?
Okay, and can you adapt as themission changes?
Can you adapt to that andscreening for that?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well then, that actually goes to the book is the
Alliance it's an orange cover,it's by Reid Hoffman and I can't
remember the co-author of itwhere he talks about tours of
duty and the ability to changeyour mind, I know the book.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, it's Reid Hoffman and somebody else.
I can see the cover.
Yeah, yeah, he said orange.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I was like, oh yeah sure I've read up on that.
Yeah, that's a book.
I think that was inserted inthe nomenclature about 2016,
2015.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Yeah, that sounds right yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, so tour of duty Like that, like that, a lot,
all right.
Well, let me ask We've askedabout takeaways that you've had
from the event, but we haven'tasked, and we asked about 2022
to 2023.
What do you see taking placefrom 2023 to 2024?
What's next?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Hmm.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I think it's sort of a magic baseball.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, well, you can collect your thoughts.
So I'm in the market a lot,talking to both sides, both the
vendors themselves and thebuyers, the talent acquisition
teams and most of the largeenterprises and I actually
posted about this earlier thisweek that I think we're in the
earliest stages of actually theslow death of talent
(13:53):
intelligence as a standalone andseparate tool.
I think they're being unified bysome of these great AI sourcing
tools that are doing in livetime what these talent
intelligent tools say.
They need 48 hours minimumturnaround time to do on their
custom reports and if they don'tstart adding and becoming
(14:16):
sourcing tools themselves, thenall they are is just more data
without actually anything actualto do about it, whereas if
you're sourcing tool givingpeople actual people to contact
and the data like this is wherethe female Java developers are
most best concentrated in thesecities and then actually giving
(14:40):
you specific people to contact,that's a lot better than just
you know.
Austin, texas has 10,000 femaleJava developers.
San Francisco has 20,000 thingslike that, and I think and I've
seen this with actual buyers inactual demos talking about
dropping these talentintelligent tools and using that
spend towards sourcing tools.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Martin, what are you seeing out?
Speaker 4 (15:04):
there.
That's interesting.
I actually want to build alittle bit because I think it's
interesting, if you don't mind.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So I was looking at have you seen Claire's new tool.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
So Wilson HHG's that they bought Claire last year.
Claire, it's phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We had Mark Mape's on .
We should probably have Michaelon, because Michael is the yeah
.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Michael and I went and talked to like we just we,
he and I are like woo together,so we got weird in a good way,
but they're building a.
Really they've got a reallyinteresting build to generate
Almost a couple seconds of laborin the next report.
That would take an analyst twomonths to build like that.
So take that to your point.
I love what you're saying andthe next logical step is to say
(15:47):
here's this many in SanFrancisco and here's where they
are.
Here's their emails, here'stheir phone number and we've
created the.
Oh, here's 20,000.
Here's the ones we know arequalified based on our you know,
data set and here's theirinformation.
That's a phenomenal way to dothat.
I love that.
That's really cool.
So who's actually doing that?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Well, it's coming about by someone.
Oh, I see there's a twinkle in.
There's a twinkle in Evan's eye.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Well, I can't yeah, I can't disclose who's doing that
.
Whoever it is, we'll find out.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, let's just say there's a couple of large
financial services companiesthat are strongly considering
doing that, and that's what ledme.
I don't do hot takes, I do realtakes from real situations, and
if these companies are thinkingabout it, then the others are
soon to follow, and that's why Ifeel confident in that
prediction.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah, that's a good point, that's great.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
What I'm saying is talent intelligence.
I don't want anyone tomisunderstand me.
It's not dying.
I think that as the more andmore revenue goes towards
getting talent intelligence fromthese sourcing tools, they'll
acquire or merge with the talentintelligence tools.
They won't be able to survivejust being a separate talent
intelligence tool.
They got to be able to do morefor their clients and it's
(17:06):
probably going to be by beingacquired or merging.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Okay, all right.
So 2024 acquires and mergers alittle bit of the disposition
and change in terms of talents,intelligence and its mashup with
sourcing.
Martin, what do you got for2024?
What's on top?
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Yeah, so the building on the M&A PC is mentioned.
I think we're going to see someactivity in that level this
year because there's been.
This is typical.
When you have an economicdownturn, something weird
happens, that you get like whathappened with COVID.
Just briefly, when everyonewent home, people start building
point solutions at home as theycame and they're bored and they
have things to do and new ideas.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So we have a lot of those floating around, right now
.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
But then you start seeing acquisitions happening.
We saw this are happeningalready.
I think we'll see more thisyear and next year.
Actually, it's just theindustry kind of pulls together
a bit.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Okay, all right, well , we oh.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Ryan, one thing we didn't do.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Ryan, what's up?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I don't think we went through what each of these
gentlemen do.
Oh, you know what?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
That's a good point.
We jumped right into it Like Igot excited because of who we
were partying with.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So, martin, you've recently joined, I am.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
GM of.
Well, actually, because of lackof a comma on my name tag, you
can't see a podcast.
People are old, but it saysMartin Burns GM dash America's
utter, you're America's utter.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Which I think.
Like I said, I think it's Texasor possibly Mexico.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Florida something else?
Oh, oh, oh Shh.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Martin Burns entered the chat.
What is utter?
Speaker 4 (18:30):
The utter is a UK based consultancy that focuses
on, well, all things TA reallyin HR.
So everything fromimplementation, some
integrations as well, frankly,with vendors On the vendor side
go to market strategy, thosekind of pieces.
But on the client buyer side, alot of process work, a lot of
the good stuff coming in helpingto figure out the big problems,
helping them implement newtechnologies, number of really
(18:53):
strong partnerships over inEurope high bob, smart
recruiters, a bunch of othersand I started with these guys
two weeks ago and they want toexpand, bring the service levels
to the Americas, and they'reclients who, where they work
with all the love of them theyare renowned as being probably
the best consultancy in Europeas far as quality goes, and so
we want to bring that here,maintain that and build up the
(19:14):
same service offering forclients in the States and help
them with their implementationsacross various platforms that
serve an SI, as well as buildingup some branding and creative
abilities to our clients whowant to help them build career
aspects for their clients.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Cool, cool.
And Evan, what about you?
Give us a 30,000 foot viewabout what it is that you do in
the TA space?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Sure, I do what I call TAP Intro.
My company name is Hermonomicsand I'm a talent acquisition
partner providing introductionsto talent acquisition tools.
So I'm a matchmaker for toolsinstead of people.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
Okay there, and people can be tools too, though,
so that could work in bothdirections.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
That is true, that is true.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Oh I should probably drop by email too.
I guess it's martin at udderrox.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
All right.
Well, hey, I appreciateeverybody being on the show
today.
Thank you for giving voice towhat's going on at HR Tech.
I'm Ryan, he's Brian.
We are brought to you by Olioat wait.
Wait, did I say that wrong Tobackwards.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
She's Ryan.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I'm Brian.
We're brought to you by Oliohere on the floor at Recruiting
Daily's Sourcing School Podcast.
Thanks so much.
Listed throughout this podcast,please remember.
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