October 27, 2023 • 21 mins
Ready to redefine your corporate relationships? We've just returned from HR Tech in Vegas and are eager to share our insights with you. We joined forces with two innovative guests, Aaron Rubens, CEO of Kudoboard, and Lauren Smith, the brains behind Refer, to explore how their groundbreaking products are reshaping the way we connect in the business world. Their insights into the importance of personal connections and community building were eye-opening to say the least, and the concept of giving back as a crucial part of relationship building was a game-changer.
Rubins and Smith also shed light on the current landscape of HR tech and the urgency for integration. They articulate how their products foster a more welcoming workplace and cultivate a sense of belonging. So tune in, and let's start redefining your corporate relationships together.
Special mini series recorded with Oleeo at HR Tech 2023 with hosts Ryan Leary, Brian Fink, and Shally Steckerl.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hey everybody, welcome to Recruiting Daily
Sourcing School.
We are brought to you live inperson in HR Tech at Vegas.
Wait, hold on.
I mean in Vegas, at HR Tech.
We are brought to you by Olio.
Today I'm here with my co-host,ryan Leary.
Ryan Leary, give it up to thegood people, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You are on a high right now.
I'm saying oh yeah, so, ryan,it has been an energetic day.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We've met some new friends.
We've kept up with some oldfriends.
We're closing in on the end ofday two, but as we're closed,
Day one oh geez, okay.
Day one.
Okay, I'm here to keep youstraight.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, parties are coming.
Parties are coming tonight.
Wnba.
There are people going to WNBA.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
And the chain smokers are in town.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Chain smokers are in town.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Chain smokers are in town.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm going to do the chain smokers thing.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Are you serious If you can get me tickets?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
If Al is listening to this podcast.
Ryan and I did not go to thechain smokers.
We are not talking about yourfriend in Boulder and the back
of their Range Rover.
We are never, ever getting backtogether.
Okay, alright.
So those little Taylor Swift, alittle chain smokers, mix up
About, mix up and fix up.
We have got with us not one,but two guests coming to us live
(01:29):
here.
We've got Aaron Rubins, who'sthe CEO of Kudo Board.
Kudo Board is a product that Ihave used.
I will stand behind this is nota paid endorsement.
I use it when I was at Twitter.
I thought it was an excellentway to recognize people for
their anniversaries, for theirbirthdays, for meaningful
opportunities in their career,for promotions.
Aaron, welcome to the Big Show.
I'm excited to meet you.
I'm excited to meet the personwho's behind a product that
(01:50):
really influences and toucheslives and makes relationships
personal and personal in thecorporate sphere.
So, aaron, thank you for doingthat.
Now, number two, I'm going tojump from Aaron over to the
lovely and talented Lauren Smith, who is at refer and is their
(02:10):
founder, and she is in thebusiness of relationships as
well, making sure that thoserelationships are those that are
such that, when somebody makesa referral or a recommendation
for you to hire, that it carrieswith it a certain gravitas and
reframes the conversation thatwe're having around employee
referrals.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys andgirls, welcome to the Big Show.
Thank you Aaron, thank youLauren.
(02:32):
Let's rock and roll.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
This is what day one does.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
for it We've got to lean into the mic a little bit.
End of the day.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
We're excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I hope I can feed off of some of your energy.
You're really amped for likefour o'clock on day one.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, it's not really four o'clock, it's really seven
o'clock because I'm east coastin the house.
You know who needs some of myenergy?
The Atlanta Braves, becausethey are losing to Ryan's
Philadelphia Phillies right now.
One, two, seven, oh boy.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
As a Yankees fan who's kind of out of it this
season, I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It is still seven to one.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It is still.
Yeah, I got it on the big board.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Where are we at in this year?
Is this it?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
No, no because we gave the game up last night.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
You didn't give the game up.
Last night we fought reallyhard for that.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You can tell yourself that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
We have one more to go after.
It will be over tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
We're going to five games.
We're going to five games.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
One, two, three.
No, we're going to four.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We're going to five, all right.
So, speaking of goings Goings,you all came to Vegas to have
great conversations withindividuals.
What's the vibe like here onthe floor?
You talked about my energylevel.
What energy level, lauren, areyou feeling from the good people
on the floor?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
What I see most of all is just so much like relief
and excitement for people to beback together.
One thing that I love about theHR space, hr Tech in particular
, is that it's such acollaborative ecosystem and the
number of people I've met whoare like this is my 15th HR Tech
.
All my buddies are backtogether.
Where are we going out?
I'm like this is my first HRtech, but how do I?
Become one of you?
How do I become one of you guys?
(04:02):
It seems to know everybody.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Just keep coming, yeah, just keep going there.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Yeah, I think that one of the things that you have
to do with every community andRyan has definitely taught me
this is that it's not about whatyou take out from the community
, it's about what you put intothe community.
The more you put into thecommunity, the better it's going
to be for everybody else who'sinvolved.
Actually, I think that's aninteresting segue over to Kudo
board.
What are you guys thinkingabout this adventure that we're
(04:28):
on in Vegas?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Yeah, you have a very Vegas hat on.
We do have.
It's blinking, it's flashing,it's very Vegas.
No, it's been great.
It's our first HR tech as well,and so just kind of taking it
in and feeling it out.
But it's been great, toLauren's point, that you get
these people that have been hereyear after year, so that, I
think, really shows us it's anopportunity to kind of build
these connections andrelationships that span beyond
(04:49):
just the single day.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
OK, so I like that.
And about connections feel freeto connect with Aaron or Lauren
on LinkedIn or your socialmedia platform of choice.
About connecting, how do youfeel that each I mean you both
are in different spaces and youaffect the connection that
people feel to their business orto their enterprise?
(05:12):
Let's talk about connection fora second.
How do you, aaron, make peoplefeel connected to their business
and to their coworkers?
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And Lauren, get ready , because this ain't funny.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
That question's coming back for you.
I'm Mike D I'm about to makemoney.
So, in general, kudo Board isabout bringing people together
to celebrate special moments,and oftentimes it's, like you
said before, birthdays, workanniversaries, things like that.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I loved it at Twitter .
I loved it at Twitter.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
But I'll mention, since this is a recruiting
focused show, one of the thingswe're seeing a lot more of these
days is teams basically puttingtogether a Kudo Board and
delivering it to applicants ontheir first day on the job or
even before they get hired, tosay hey, congrats on the offer,
we hope you join us.
But it's just trying to createthat connection, because there's
so much at the beginning of theprocess that feels more like
paperwork, and to try to givesome moment of realness from
(05:59):
your hiring team who's bringingyou on can kind of separate you
from the crowd.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
All right.
And so for those of you whohaven't used Kudo Board and I
have, and I love it, and you arenot paying me to say good
things- about it.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
I know this is great yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Is it the thing about Kudo Board?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Nobody listens to the show.
Nobody listens to the show I'mgoing to enjoy it, I'm going to
just put it down, you're notgetting any publicity.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So the thing that I like about it is that if I
wanted to record a specialmessage to share with a teammate
about their accomplishment, orabout the amount of hires that
they may in the quarter, orabout them onboarding into the
organization, I can make a video.
But if I don't want to make avideo, I just want to post a GIF
.
I can post a GIF If I want tosend a GIF to.
With a T.
I can send somebody a birthdaygift through Kudo Board and that
(06:41):
really takes.
It's seamless, it's quick, it'seasy and it speaks whatever the
givers and the receivers lovelanguages all in one.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Brian, I think we need you on our marketing team.
This is yeah, I agree, you arecorrect.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
When he gets ousted from McAfee.
He's all in, All right, Laurenthe question wait.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
No, the question is to Lauren and then Ryan's got a
question.
Lauren talking about connectionand community, how do referrals
foster that community and thatconnection to a business?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Great question and it was funny.
I was just going to commentbefore on what it's like being
here and the connections I'mmaking, and so much about being
at this event meeting people,meeting influencers in the
industry, et cetera is sort of ameta parallel to my product,
because our thesis at refer isthat Great referrals can come
from anywhere.
Great software engineers noother great software engineers.
You rely on your network forrecommendations for every other
(07:36):
thing.
Why not your team?
But the interesting part andthis is someone is something
with a finance and operationsbackground is when I leave here
and people ask me what the ROIis.
How many customers did you signup?
I have no idea what the ROI isbecause I just made these
connections and I know they'regoing to be valuable, but I
don't quite know how, where,when, et cetera.
And so the intent-focused part,the part of making connections
(07:58):
for the sake of knowing there'smutual benefit and someday down
the line there might be a momentto utilize that is so much
clearer than a $12 cost peracquisition of a customer or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Okay, that's very Gary Vaynerchuk when he talks
about what is the ROI ofconnection.
Okay, that is a bad Gary.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Vaynerchuk impersonation.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
That was pretty bad.
It was pretty bad.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Ryan, you had a question.
First off this smell of thispopcorn.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
let me just give it a oh, this popcorn is fantastic
it smells so good, let's go overto Omaha Steak Omaha Steak is
grilling steak over there.
You mentioned that they havesteak all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Are they grilling steak?
They are chilling and grilling.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Omaha Steak is presenting at HR Tech.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, because they're an employee benefit.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Oh, I thought it was like steaks.
I don't no, so Steak is thebenefit.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But they had a little brochure yesterday about.
So to Aaron's point aboutwelcoming your new team member
or gifting during the holidaysand.
I was like, oh, this totallymakes sense, like 100% should be
here, right.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, well, there's a company like Hello Fresh is
starting to get into HR Tech asa giving platform.
Right, are they here?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
No, but you've got Uber for Business here.
You've got Amazon Books here.
Everything touches theemployees' spirits.
We're all employees.
Can we just?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
say, Amazon Books has never had one person go to any
of their booths any of the yearsI've seen them here.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Really.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I probably shouldn't talk bad about them.
And now you have had yourAmazon Prime revoked they let me
return so much crap, the amountof stuff I returned.
So kudos to Amazon Books.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I love, but I can understand how it's an employee
benefit.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, Because Igo through three books a month
and if you could economize that,like, Ali would prefer that.
Okay, Ali, if you're listening,I know that I should get a
library card.
I love you.
Okay, that's a sense of point.
So, as we're talking about thebenefit, though, of employee
(09:55):
referrals and of a great productlike Kudo Board, that's making
people feel valued in theenvironment, there was a
conversation that was havingmaybe 15, 20 minutes ago about
employee experience.
Right, how important is theemployee experience and how
different is it from thecandidate experience?
Are those disjoint?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Yeah, I mean I'd love to hear your answer on this too
, lauren, because you're on thecandidate side.
But I think in a perfect worldthe candidate experience is a
microcosm, a taste of theemployee experience.
So if it feels right, if itfeels like it's a fit, then you
only get more of it.
Sure, ideal world.
(10:37):
I think in the real worldPeople have interview processes.
They go through them, they tryto present themselves in a
certain way, and then you startthe job and what happens happens
.
So that's why you're doingbackdoor referrals.
You're saying, hey, what doesit actually like when I go there
, what does this person actuallylike?
And I'd love to know whatcompanies do it well, where that
candidate experience reallyfeels like what it's to be at
(10:59):
the company.
But I think it's a challenge.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Lauren, what you got.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I would generally agree with it.
A company's culture is theirculture and the way they treat
it externally is going to bepretty comparable to how they
treat it internally.
So I absolutely agree thatcandidate experience is a
microcosm of the employeeexperience and I do think in
this world of hiring wherethere's rapid turnover, people
are changing jobs quickly.
What referrals bring to thetable is taking away the
(11:25):
anonymity to bring any kind ofconnection to the company and
create that tangiblerelationship where suddenly you
care about the company youapplied for.
You didn't just do one clickapply for the 50th time that day
on a job board, and it's onething that we've really seen
with referrals, one of thedifferences that we're making.
Well, ultimately, I want towork with anyone who hires.
We've started with venturebacked tech and in demand
(11:48):
technical talent softwareengineers, data scientists, ai
engineers in particular.
Right now, like any other coldprospecting, get 40 emails a
week from recruiters saying, hey, check out our company and
their white noise.
But when a friend says, hey,check this roll out and we're
doing this out, really coolyou're going to do it every
single time, and so we see a 70%engagement rate with our
referral.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So I'm curious on the referral side and I've never
seen refer.
I never saw the platform.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
She would be happy to give you a demo.
I don't even need to you cansign up yourself.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's fully self service.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
What.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
We're building for anyone who's ever applied for a
job, so that probably includesyou.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
That includes me.
It's been a long time.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's been a long time .
Shouldn't have left y'all.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
What are your thoughts on?
If I'm an employee and I'mgoing to refer, what's it like
then?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Me you're going to refer Brian.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
No, like you, just like social.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Oh, social acquaintance.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, you like, go through your LinkedIn
connections and I'm going torefer these 50 people that
really don't have a relationship.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
It's a great question because our business model is
entirely focused on validatedpersonal connections.
I don't want to name you.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
What is a validated personal connection?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
We verify the fact that the referer and the
candidate that they're referringknow each other in some
capacity.
We have them fill it out viaself response.
We take their LinkedInhistories and look for moments
of overlap, be that similaruniversities or overlapping
careers, et cetera.
But more than that, before anyreferral is ever sent to any of
our employee customers, werequire a double opt in.
(13:22):
People don't need more passivetalent, they don't need more.
Joe would be a great fit.
Here's Joe's email.
They need Joe to say yeah, I'minterested.
So when a referral is made,first it goes to the candidate
and it says hey, ryan, ryanreferred you for a great new
role.
Check it out.
If you're interested, checkhere.
And it's only after thatvalidated connection that we
(13:44):
then send it on to the employer,which prevents the user from
going on and filling outreferrals for all 2000 of their
LinkedIn connections that theydon't know.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Which is similar to talent pair, but now talent pair
is not a referral platform,it's a marketplace for
recruiters and splits.
You know things like that.
But I can go in and I can refer400 candidates and then I'm paid
on the placement of thatcandidate.
But that candidate is notactive until they're vetted.
(14:13):
They complete the form, theyaccept the invitation.
So I actually have to talk withthe candidate, I actually have
to say, okay, here's the roles Iwant to submit you for.
Then I can submit it vetted andthat makes it a much better
marketplace.
So I like how you're vetted.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Glad to hear.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Awesome.
All right, so that soundsreally innovative from a double
verify perspective, right?
How'd you come up with thatidea?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I mean, it's one of these things where you kind of
sit up and when you hear aboutit you ask why doesn't it exist
already?
I mean, external referrals arenot a new concept.
You can take a scroll onLinkedIn and see tons of people
asking for great candidates, oryou can use the data that 40% of
referrals today already comefrom external sources.
I've given and receivedreferrals dozens of times over
(15:00):
for things far less meaningfulthan my team, and so it was sort
of just a light bulb moment atdinner one day where someone's
trying to find a really harddata scientist profile and says
I'd give you $10,000 if you canfind me this person.
If you had $10,000, it would becheap to find that person.
I'll say our average bounty isnot $10,000.
We allow employers to set theirROI, but it's closer to $2,500.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Wow, okay, all right, and that's a.
The $2,500 is the magic numberthat Lazlo Bach put forth in the
book work rules, and that waswhat they were using at Google.
Okay, I see that validated.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
It's been exciting to see that people have followed.
We use $2,500 in my modeling,before we even launched, as the
standard referral bonus andwe've seen actually it's closer
to 3,000, the average bonus.
So it's interesting to see thatpeople are willing to pay the
same for external as internal.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Interesting, interesting Question that I'd
ask to Aaron is do you see thatorganizations that adopt a
something as simple as sayingthank you for your service,
what's the?
I know we said ROI wasimportant, but it's not
(16:04):
important, but it is important,but it is important.
Aaron, what's the ROI inadopting something like
Cudoboard, in creating a morehospitable environment for
employees?
Does it help with retention?
Do you have data that provesthat?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Yeah, it's a great question.
You know, it's something thatwe have several large customers
that we're working on studiesfor exactly that.
I think right now there's a lotof qualitative evidence around
hey, this person received this,they said it was really
meaningful, that sort of thing.
But to get a really goodlongitudinal study takes some
time.
The long story is, I thinkeveryone sort of recognizes
(16:38):
qualitative like hey, if I'mappreciated, it's a place where
I want to be, and there's somebroader studies that show that.
So, like the number one reasonpeople leave their job isn't
their pay, it's that they don'tfeel recognized and appreciated
by their team, things like that.
But I think the thing that'sharder to prove and that we're
still working on is how do youprove that this type of
appreciation in this contextactually meets that bar versus
(16:59):
someone after the fact saying oh, I didn't leave because of the
money, I left because I wasn'tappreciated.
So there's some complexityaround proving it.
But I think that inherentlyeveryone knows like, yeah, you
know, when I'm miserable is whenI start looking, when I start
being more open, when a nicereferral comes in, I'm like you
know what I would be good forthat other job.
Let me look there.
It's a question of like is yourradar on or is your radar off?
(17:20):
And, like we all know, ourradar is off when we are happy
and our radar for otheropportunities definitely on when
we're not.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
About radar what's on your radar that you saw at HR
Tech?
That really you're like that'ssome shit.
Besides whoa, I cursed Allright, that's some shit, shame
on you, I know, I know two times.
Wait, hold on, we can beep it.
We can beep it out.
What is it that you've seenthat makes you sit up and go?
Speaker 4 (17:46):
wow, yeah, I wish this is.
You know you work at the boothall day.
I feel like I've had a greatchance to meet with a lot of
customers, but haven't reallyhad a chance to go around and
take it all in.
Yet you know, as most folksthat are here know, there's a
ton around like general AI andhow AI is going to do this.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Bingo, bingo card.
We have general AI.
We have general AI.
It's that big right.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
You know, I think the thing that is on my mind
transparently is not so muchthat it's around so many
companies I'm sort of again Isaid this is my first time here
there are just so manytechnology, hr technology,
platforms that it makes sense tome that companies are saying,
hey, how do we consolidate, howdo we take 10 and turn it into
(18:26):
seven and turn it into five?
And so that's a lot of what'son my mind is how do we make
Kudo Ward play better?
We've done a lot aroundintegrations, automations,
things like that, but that'sreally what I'm walking away
with.
It's probably not the boomcraziest like HR, but it is the
thing that I am thinking about alot, which is like wow, this is
a huge space with a ton outthere, and unless we play nice
(18:46):
with all these different folks,like eventually, no matter how
great our product is inisolation, it will get lost
because you'll say, hey, we gotthis other platform, it does
these 10 other things, and if itdoes this 11th, then we'll just
do that instead.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, but it goes back to what we started the
conversation on, about creatingconnection, creating community,
right.
So how you play in theecosystem.
I think that's a reallypowerful takeaway, lauren.
What do you got what?
What Resil dazzled you.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I mean, I'd actually love to build on that topic.
I think one of the interestingfactors of HR tech having had so
much innovation in just thelast couple of years and,
honestly, behind mostdepartments within a company is
that it's great that there arenow so many solutions for
different elements of whetherit's talent management, talent
acquisition, employee engagement, et cetera.
But if you've got to go to 19different screens to use them,
(19:31):
you're never going to adopt themfully, you'll never going to
realize their potential fully.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
That's my dream 19 screens, and so we need into
that integration like nobody.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
for instance, in our case, when you ask me who my
competitors are, in theory it'sanybody who's related to
sourcing, except nobody relieson one sourcing pipeline.
Everybody is using multiplesourcing pipelines.
So figuring how to work withinand partner within the ecosystem
, integrate with each other,support and co-market and
amplify each other is the nameof the game, and I love that
everybody here is so open andexcited about it.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Well, I'm glad that we could have amplified both
your voices in the conversation.
I'm excited about the future ofemployee referrals.
I'm excited about the future ofemployee recognition.
I think that community has beenthe underlying thread that has
gone through this conversation.
I'm going to let Ryan wrap thisup, that's right.
I'm going to let you do it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
You don't have to let me, I'm good man.
Yeah, enjoy the conversation.
I might be a little emotionallydrained after your energy on
this show.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Well, I wish the Phillies were a little
emotionally drained as well.
I want to give it up again, youcan.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
If you've got a fanatic, you just got to keep
going.
You've got a fanatic, you'vegot to keep going.
I want to give it up.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I know, I know, I looked at it a minute ago.
I want to give it up to Aaron.
I want to give it up to Lauren.
Thank you so much for stoppingby Olio's booth here at HR Tech
in Vegas.
Thanks for partying with theteam at Sourcing School.
Olio, we love you.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much, jackjeremy.
Hey everybody, welcome to Recruiting Daily
Sourcing School.
We are brought to you live inperson in HR Tech at Vegas.
Wait, hold on.
I mean in Vegas, at HR Tech.
We are brought to you by Olio.
Today I'm here with my co-host,ryan Leary.
Ryan Leary, give it up to thegood people, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You are on a high right now.
I'm saying oh yeah, so, ryan,it has been an energetic day.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We've met some new friends.
We've kept up with some oldfriends.
We're closing in on the end ofday two, but as we're closed,
Day one oh geez, okay.
Day one.
Okay, I'm here to keep youstraight.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, parties are coming.
Parties are coming tonight.
Wnba.
There are people going to WNBA.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
And the chain smokers are in town.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Chain smokers are in town.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Chain smokers are in town.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm going to do the chain smokers thing.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Are you serious If you can get me tickets?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
If Al is listening to this podcast.
Ryan and I did not go to thechain smokers.
We are not talking about yourfriend in Boulder and the back
of their Range Rover.
We are never, ever getting backtogether.
Okay, alright.
So those little Taylor Swift, alittle chain smokers, mix up
About, mix up and fix up.
We have got with us not one,but two guests coming to us live
(01:29):
here.
We've got Aaron Rubins, who'sthe CEO of Kudo Board.
Kudo Board is a product that Ihave used.
I will stand behind this is nota paid endorsement.
I use it when I was at Twitter.
I thought it was an excellentway to recognize people for
their anniversaries, for theirbirthdays, for meaningful
opportunities in their career,for promotions.
Aaron, welcome to the Big Show.
I'm excited to meet you.
I'm excited to meet the personwho's behind a product that
(01:50):
really influences and toucheslives and makes relationships
personal and personal in thecorporate sphere.
So, aaron, thank you for doingthat.
Now, number two, I'm going tojump from Aaron over to the
lovely and talented Lauren Smith, who is at refer and is their
(02:10):
founder, and she is in thebusiness of relationships as
well, making sure that thoserelationships are those that are
such that, when somebody makesa referral or a recommendation
for you to hire, that it carrieswith it a certain gravitas and
reframes the conversation thatwe're having around employee
referrals.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys andgirls, welcome to the Big Show.
Thank you Aaron, thank youLauren.
(02:32):
Let's rock and roll.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
This is what day one does.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
for it We've got to lean into the mic a little bit.
End of the day.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
We're excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I hope I can feed off of some of your energy.
You're really amped for likefour o'clock on day one.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, it's not really four o'clock, it's really seven
o'clock because I'm east coastin the house.
You know who needs some of myenergy?
The Atlanta Braves, becausethey are losing to Ryan's
Philadelphia Phillies right now.
One, two, seven, oh boy.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
As a Yankees fan who's kind of out of it this
season, I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It is still seven to one.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It is still.
Yeah, I got it on the big board.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Where are we at in this year?
Is this it?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
No, no because we gave the game up last night.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
You didn't give the game up.
Last night we fought reallyhard for that.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You can tell yourself that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
We have one more to go after.
It will be over tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
We're going to five games.
We're going to five games.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
One, two, three.
No, we're going to four.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We're going to five, all right.
So, speaking of goings Goings,you all came to Vegas to have
great conversations withindividuals.
What's the vibe like here onthe floor?
You talked about my energylevel.
What energy level, lauren, areyou feeling from the good people
on the floor?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
What I see most of all is just so much like relief
and excitement for people to beback together.
One thing that I love about theHR space, hr Tech in particular
, is that it's such acollaborative ecosystem and the
number of people I've met whoare like this is my 15th HR Tech
.
All my buddies are backtogether.
Where are we going out?
I'm like this is my first HRtech, but how do I?
Become one of you?
How do I become one of you guys?
(04:02):
It seems to know everybody.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Just keep coming, yeah, just keep going there.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Yeah, I think that one of the things that you have
to do with every community andRyan has definitely taught me
this is that it's not about whatyou take out from the community
, it's about what you put intothe community.
The more you put into thecommunity, the better it's going
to be for everybody else who'sinvolved.
Actually, I think that's aninteresting segue over to Kudo
board.
What are you guys thinkingabout this adventure that we're
(04:28):
on in Vegas?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Yeah, you have a very Vegas hat on.
We do have.
It's blinking, it's flashing,it's very Vegas.
No, it's been great.
It's our first HR tech as well,and so just kind of taking it
in and feeling it out.
But it's been great, toLauren's point, that you get
these people that have been hereyear after year, so that, I
think, really shows us it's anopportunity to kind of build
these connections andrelationships that span beyond
(04:49):
just the single day.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
OK, so I like that.
And about connections feel freeto connect with Aaron or Lauren
on LinkedIn or your socialmedia platform of choice.
About connecting, how do youfeel that each I mean you both
are in different spaces and youaffect the connection that
people feel to their business orto their enterprise?
(05:12):
Let's talk about connection fora second.
How do you, aaron, make peoplefeel connected to their business
and to their coworkers?
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And Lauren, get ready , because this ain't funny.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
That question's coming back for you.
I'm Mike D I'm about to makemoney.
So, in general, kudo Board isabout bringing people together
to celebrate special moments,and oftentimes it's, like you
said before, birthdays, workanniversaries, things like that.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I loved it at Twitter .
I loved it at Twitter.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
But I'll mention, since this is a recruiting
focused show, one of the thingswe're seeing a lot more of these
days is teams basically puttingtogether a Kudo Board and
delivering it to applicants ontheir first day on the job or
even before they get hired, tosay hey, congrats on the offer,
we hope you join us.
But it's just trying to createthat connection, because there's
so much at the beginning of theprocess that feels more like
paperwork, and to try to givesome moment of realness from
(05:59):
your hiring team who's bringingyou on can kind of separate you
from the crowd.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
All right.
And so for those of you whohaven't used Kudo Board and I
have, and I love it, and you arenot paying me to say good
things- about it.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
I know this is great yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Is it the thing about Kudo Board?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Nobody listens to the show.
Nobody listens to the show I'mgoing to enjoy it, I'm going to
just put it down, you're notgetting any publicity.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So the thing that I like about it is that if I
wanted to record a specialmessage to share with a teammate
about their accomplishment, orabout the amount of hires that
they may in the quarter, orabout them onboarding into the
organization, I can make a video.
But if I don't want to make avideo, I just want to post a GIF
.
I can post a GIF If I want tosend a GIF to.
With a T.
I can send somebody a birthdaygift through Kudo Board and that
(06:41):
really takes.
It's seamless, it's quick, it'seasy and it speaks whatever the
givers and the receivers lovelanguages all in one.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Brian, I think we need you on our marketing team.
This is yeah, I agree, you arecorrect.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
When he gets ousted from McAfee.
He's all in, All right, Laurenthe question wait.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
No, the question is to Lauren and then Ryan's got a
question.
Lauren talking about connectionand community, how do referrals
foster that community and thatconnection to a business?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Great question and it was funny.
I was just going to commentbefore on what it's like being
here and the connections I'mmaking, and so much about being
at this event meeting people,meeting influencers in the
industry, et cetera is sort of ameta parallel to my product,
because our thesis at refer isthat Great referrals can come
from anywhere.
Great software engineers noother great software engineers.
You rely on your network forrecommendations for every other
(07:36):
thing.
Why not your team?
But the interesting part andthis is someone is something
with a finance and operationsbackground is when I leave here
and people ask me what the ROIis.
How many customers did you signup?
I have no idea what the ROI isbecause I just made these
connections and I know they'regoing to be valuable, but I
don't quite know how, where,when, et cetera.
And so the intent-focused part,the part of making connections
(07:58):
for the sake of knowing there'smutual benefit and someday down
the line there might be a momentto utilize that is so much
clearer than a $12 cost peracquisition of a customer or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Okay, that's very Gary Vaynerchuk when he talks
about what is the ROI ofconnection.
Okay, that is a bad Gary.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Vaynerchuk impersonation.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
That was pretty bad.
It was pretty bad.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Ryan, you had a question.
First off this smell of thispopcorn.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
let me just give it a oh, this popcorn is fantastic
it smells so good, let's go overto Omaha Steak Omaha Steak is
grilling steak over there.
You mentioned that they havesteak all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Are they grilling steak?
They are chilling and grilling.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Omaha Steak is presenting at HR Tech.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, because they're an employee benefit.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Oh, I thought it was like steaks.
I don't no, so Steak is thebenefit.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But they had a little brochure yesterday about.
So to Aaron's point aboutwelcoming your new team member
or gifting during the holidaysand.
I was like, oh, this totallymakes sense, like 100% should be
here, right.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, well, there's a company like Hello Fresh is
starting to get into HR Tech asa giving platform.
Right, are they here?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
No, but you've got Uber for Business here.
You've got Amazon Books here.
Everything touches theemployees' spirits.
We're all employees.
Can we just?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
say, Amazon Books has never had one person go to any
of their booths any of the yearsI've seen them here.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Really.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I probably shouldn't talk bad about them.
And now you have had yourAmazon Prime revoked they let me
return so much crap, the amountof stuff I returned.
So kudos to Amazon Books.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I love, but I can understand how it's an employee
benefit.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, Because Igo through three books a month
and if you could economize that,like, Ali would prefer that.
Okay, Ali, if you're listening,I know that I should get a
library card.
I love you.
Okay, that's a sense of point.
So, as we're talking about thebenefit, though, of employee
(09:55):
referrals and of a great productlike Kudo Board, that's making
people feel valued in theenvironment, there was a
conversation that was havingmaybe 15, 20 minutes ago about
employee experience.
Right, how important is theemployee experience and how
different is it from thecandidate experience?
Are those disjoint?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Yeah, I mean I'd love to hear your answer on this too
, lauren, because you're on thecandidate side.
But I think in a perfect worldthe candidate experience is a
microcosm, a taste of theemployee experience.
So if it feels right, if itfeels like it's a fit, then you
only get more of it.
Sure, ideal world.
(10:37):
I think in the real worldPeople have interview processes.
They go through them, they tryto present themselves in a
certain way, and then you startthe job and what happens happens
.
So that's why you're doingbackdoor referrals.
You're saying, hey, what doesit actually like when I go there
, what does this person actuallylike?
And I'd love to know whatcompanies do it well, where that
candidate experience reallyfeels like what it's to be at
(10:59):
the company.
But I think it's a challenge.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Lauren, what you got.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I would generally agree with it.
A company's culture is theirculture and the way they treat
it externally is going to bepretty comparable to how they
treat it internally.
So I absolutely agree thatcandidate experience is a
microcosm of the employeeexperience and I do think in
this world of hiring wherethere's rapid turnover, people
are changing jobs quickly.
What referrals bring to thetable is taking away the
(11:25):
anonymity to bring any kind ofconnection to the company and
create that tangiblerelationship where suddenly you
care about the company youapplied for.
You didn't just do one clickapply for the 50th time that day
on a job board, and it's onething that we've really seen
with referrals, one of thedifferences that we're making.
Well, ultimately, I want towork with anyone who hires.
We've started with venturebacked tech and in demand
(11:48):
technical talent softwareengineers, data scientists, ai
engineers in particular.
Right now, like any other coldprospecting, get 40 emails a
week from recruiters saying, hey, check out our company and
their white noise.
But when a friend says, hey,check this roll out and we're
doing this out, really coolyou're going to do it every
single time, and so we see a 70%engagement rate with our
referral.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So I'm curious on the referral side and I've never
seen refer.
I never saw the platform.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
She would be happy to give you a demo.
I don't even need to you cansign up yourself.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's fully self service.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
What.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
We're building for anyone who's ever applied for a
job, so that probably includesyou.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
That includes me.
It's been a long time.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's been a long time .
Shouldn't have left y'all.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
What are your thoughts on?
If I'm an employee and I'mgoing to refer, what's it like
then?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Me you're going to refer Brian.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
No, like you, just like social.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Oh, social acquaintance.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, you like, go through your LinkedIn
connections and I'm going torefer these 50 people that
really don't have a relationship.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
It's a great question because our business model is
entirely focused on validatedpersonal connections.
I don't want to name you.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
What is a validated personal connection?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
We verify the fact that the referer and the
candidate that they're referringknow each other in some
capacity.
We have them fill it out viaself response.
We take their LinkedInhistories and look for moments
of overlap, be that similaruniversities or overlapping
careers, et cetera.
But more than that, before anyreferral is ever sent to any of
our employee customers, werequire a double opt in.
(13:22):
People don't need more passivetalent, they don't need more.
Joe would be a great fit.
Here's Joe's email.
They need Joe to say yeah, I'minterested.
So when a referral is made,first it goes to the candidate
and it says hey, ryan, ryanreferred you for a great new
role.
Check it out.
If you're interested, checkhere.
And it's only after thatvalidated connection that we
(13:44):
then send it on to the employer,which prevents the user from
going on and filling outreferrals for all 2000 of their
LinkedIn connections that theydon't know.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Which is similar to talent pair, but now talent pair
is not a referral platform,it's a marketplace for
recruiters and splits.
You know things like that.
But I can go in and I can refer400 candidates and then I'm paid
on the placement of thatcandidate.
But that candidate is notactive until they're vetted.
(14:13):
They complete the form, theyaccept the invitation.
So I actually have to talk withthe candidate, I actually have
to say, okay, here's the roles Iwant to submit you for.
Then I can submit it vetted andthat makes it a much better
marketplace.
So I like how you're vetted.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Glad to hear.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Awesome.
All right, so that soundsreally innovative from a double
verify perspective, right?
How'd you come up with thatidea?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I mean, it's one of these things where you kind of
sit up and when you hear aboutit you ask why doesn't it exist
already?
I mean, external referrals arenot a new concept.
You can take a scroll onLinkedIn and see tons of people
asking for great candidates, oryou can use the data that 40% of
referrals today already comefrom external sources.
I've given and receivedreferrals dozens of times over
(15:00):
for things far less meaningfulthan my team, and so it was sort
of just a light bulb moment atdinner one day where someone's
trying to find a really harddata scientist profile and says
I'd give you $10,000 if you canfind me this person.
If you had $10,000, it would becheap to find that person.
I'll say our average bounty isnot $10,000.
We allow employers to set theirROI, but it's closer to $2,500.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Wow, okay, all right, and that's a.
The $2,500 is the magic numberthat Lazlo Bach put forth in the
book work rules, and that waswhat they were using at Google.
Okay, I see that validated.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
It's been exciting to see that people have followed.
We use $2,500 in my modeling,before we even launched, as the
standard referral bonus andwe've seen actually it's closer
to 3,000, the average bonus.
So it's interesting to see thatpeople are willing to pay the
same for external as internal.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Interesting, interesting Question that I'd
ask to Aaron is do you see thatorganizations that adopt a
something as simple as sayingthank you for your service,
what's the?
I know we said ROI wasimportant, but it's not
(16:04):
important, but it is important,but it is important.
Aaron, what's the ROI inadopting something like
Cudoboard, in creating a morehospitable environment for
employees?
Does it help with retention?
Do you have data that provesthat?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Yeah, it's a great question.
You know, it's something thatwe have several large customers
that we're working on studiesfor exactly that.
I think right now there's a lotof qualitative evidence around
hey, this person received this,they said it was really
meaningful, that sort of thing.
But to get a really goodlongitudinal study takes some
time.
The long story is, I thinkeveryone sort of recognizes
(16:38):
qualitative like hey, if I'mappreciated, it's a place where
I want to be, and there's somebroader studies that show that.
So, like the number one reasonpeople leave their job isn't
their pay, it's that they don'tfeel recognized and appreciated
by their team, things like that.
But I think the thing that'sharder to prove and that we're
still working on is how do youprove that this type of
appreciation in this contextactually meets that bar versus
(16:59):
someone after the fact saying oh, I didn't leave because of the
money, I left because I wasn'tappreciated.
So there's some complexityaround proving it.
But I think that inherentlyeveryone knows like, yeah, you
know, when I'm miserable is whenI start looking, when I start
being more open, when a nicereferral comes in, I'm like you
know what I would be good forthat other job.
Let me look there.
It's a question of like is yourradar on or is your radar off?
(17:20):
And, like we all know, ourradar is off when we are happy
and our radar for otheropportunities definitely on when
we're not.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
About radar what's on your radar that you saw at HR
Tech?
That really you're like that'ssome shit.
Besides whoa, I cursed Allright, that's some shit, shame
on you, I know, I know two times.
Wait, hold on, we can beep it.
We can beep it out.
What is it that you've seenthat makes you sit up and go?
Speaker 4 (17:46):
wow, yeah, I wish this is.
You know you work at the boothall day.
I feel like I've had a greatchance to meet with a lot of
customers, but haven't reallyhad a chance to go around and
take it all in.
Yet you know, as most folksthat are here know, there's a
ton around like general AI andhow AI is going to do this.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Bingo, bingo card.
We have general AI.
We have general AI.
It's that big right.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
You know, I think the thing that is on my mind
transparently is not so muchthat it's around so many
companies I'm sort of again Isaid this is my first time here
there are just so manytechnology, hr technology,
platforms that it makes sense tome that companies are saying,
hey, how do we consolidate, howdo we take 10 and turn it into
(18:26):
seven and turn it into five?
And so that's a lot of what'son my mind is how do we make
Kudo Ward play better?
We've done a lot aroundintegrations, automations,
things like that, but that'sreally what I'm walking away
with.
It's probably not the boomcraziest like HR, but it is the
thing that I am thinking about alot, which is like wow, this is
a huge space with a ton outthere, and unless we play nice
(18:46):
with all these different folks,like eventually, no matter how
great our product is inisolation, it will get lost
because you'll say, hey, we gotthis other platform, it does
these 10 other things, and if itdoes this 11th, then we'll just
do that instead.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, but it goes back to what we started the
conversation on, about creatingconnection, creating community,
right.
So how you play in theecosystem.
I think that's a reallypowerful takeaway, lauren.
What do you got what?
What Resil dazzled you.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I mean, I'd actually love to build on that topic.
I think one of the interestingfactors of HR tech having had so
much innovation in just thelast couple of years and,
honestly, behind mostdepartments within a company is
that it's great that there arenow so many solutions for
different elements of whetherit's talent management, talent
acquisition, employee engagement, et cetera.
But if you've got to go to 19different screens to use them,
(19:31):
you're never going to adopt themfully, you'll never going to
realize their potential fully.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
That's my dream 19 screens, and so we need into
that integration like nobody.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
for instance, in our case, when you ask me who my
competitors are, in theory it'sanybody who's related to
sourcing, except nobody relieson one sourcing pipeline.
Everybody is using multiplesourcing pipelines.
So figuring how to work withinand partner within the ecosystem
, integrate with each other,support and co-market and
amplify each other is the nameof the game, and I love that
everybody here is so open andexcited about it.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Well, I'm glad that we could have amplified both
your voices in the conversation.
I'm excited about the future ofemployee referrals.
I'm excited about the future ofemployee recognition.
I think that community has beenthe underlying thread that has
gone through this conversation.
I'm going to let Ryan wrap thisup, that's right.
I'm going to let you do it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
You don't have to let me, I'm good man.
Yeah, enjoy the conversation.
I might be a little emotionallydrained after your energy on
this show.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Well, I wish the Phillies were a little
emotionally drained as well.
I want to give it up again, youcan.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
If you've got a fanatic, you just got to keep
going.
You've got a fanatic, you'vegot to keep going.
I want to give it up.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I know, I know, I looked at it a minute ago.
I want to give it up to Aaron.
I want to give it up to Lauren.
Thank you so much for stoppingby Olio's booth here at HR Tech
in Vegas.
Thanks for partying with theteam at Sourcing School.
Olio, we love you.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much, jackjeremy.
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