July 10, 2025 • 24 mins
What does it mean to truly come full circle in your expatriate journey? Rob Malitz reveals the unexpected twists and turns of a life spent bridging two continents while never losing sight of his South African heart.
Rob's story begins like many others – a young professional heading to London for what he calls "the partying year." But his path diverges from the typical narrative when he decides to return to South Africa after experiencing crime in London. "If I'm going to be surrounded by these elements, I'd rather actually go home to the country I love," Rob explains, challenging the common assumption that people leave South Africa primarily for safety reasons.
The conversation takes us through Rob's remarkable career transition from "boring old accountant" to successful recruitment entrepreneur. His candid account of founding Red Eye Recruitment during the credit crisis – "My business plan suggested nobody would be silly enough to do it" – reveals the blend of courage and strategic thinking that has defined his professional life. Now operating internationally, his business serves a unique purpose: helping South Africans gain global experience without permanently leaving, while also assisting those who wish to return home.
Perhaps most compelling is Rob's evolving definition of success. Where once it centered on material wealth, it now encompasses family well-being, respect from colleagues, health, and the flexibility to enjoy life. His advice for expatriates – "You are a guest in their country" – speaks to the humility required to thrive abroad while maintaining your South African identity. As Rob puts it, "When you arrive back in South Africa, part of me reattaches to myself," capturing the enduring connection many expatriates feel to their homeland regardless of where life takes them.
Whether you're contemplating a move overseas, currently living abroad, or considering a return to South Africa, Rob's journey offers valuable perspective on crafting a life that honors both your roots and your wings. Join us for this insightful conversation about what it truly means to be a South African abroad.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to South Africans Abroad a show for
expat South Africans and anyoneinterested in the experiences of
those who have made the moveoverseas.
Each episode we'll hear fromSouth Africans who have left the
country to pursue newopportunities, be with loved
ones or simply follow theirdreams.
We'll explore the challengesand triumphs of life as an expat
and the unique perspective thatcomes with being a South
(00:23):
African abroad.
Life as an expat and the uniqueperspective that comes with
being a South African abroad.
I'm your host, warren Burley,an expat South African who, like
many, followed the dream ofworking overseas.
Whether you're an expatyourself or just curious about
the expat experience, join us aswe delve into the motivations,
struggles and joys of being aSouth African living overseas.
Today's guest is a man who camefull circle.
Rob left South Africa, wentabroad, then moved back to South
(00:47):
Africa to create a thrivingbusiness.
Then he moved back to the UK,but never stopped flying the
flag for SA From boardrooms inLondon to bras back home.
Rob remains proudly SouthAfrican, connecting talent
across continents and provingthat, no matter where you live,
the spirit of home never leavesyou.
Rob, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Warren, thank you so much for having us on the show.
I've heard so much about youand very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Do you want to just tell us a little bit about
yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Let me see the background Rob Malitz who is he?
So I finished my articles inSouth Africa and then, after
articles, I spent a year in theUK more like your partying year
and then the audit firm that Iwas a part of invited me to come
back to them in Atlanta,georgia, where I spent two years
in the US as an accountant andauditor, thereafter decided to
(01:38):
go back to the UK, where I spentanother five and a half years
in the UK and working more as aproject accountant.
Five and a half years in the UKand working more as a project
accountant, and after that,believe it or not actually left
the UK because there was moreelements of crime than I care to
imagine.
So I always said well, if I'mgoing to be surrounded by these
(02:00):
elements, I'd rather actually gohome to the country that I love
.
So I ended up going back toSouth Africa and spent another
18 years in South Africa.
I started off as an accountantthere and then was headhunted of
all places into recruitment,then spent another 18 years in
South Africa, after which mykids were a little bit older
(02:20):
then and just wanted to givethem some international
opportunities for study.
So I moved back UK side foranother adventure, and that's
where I sit today.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Okay, so that's quite a journey.
I just want to go back to yourlife in the UK.
You wrote a couple of articlesa while back and some of the
things really stood out for me.
You said you had a couple oftough experiences in London
burglaries, assaults, theft.
How did those shape yourdecision to go back home?
Did they change your sense ofwhat safety really means?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You know, absolutely, and just remember that you've
got a very, very differentlifestyle when you live abroad.
There's not all the comfortsand the niceties that you have
on the other side.
So you know, I think also yourattitude determines your
altitude.
And in my heart of hearts I wasout there, but possibly the
(03:13):
negative energy was possiblyattracting the crime.
In fact, my name is Rob and Iactually thought it was becoming
a suggestion as opposed toanything else.
So I thought you know what,let's go back to the sunny
shores of South Africa.
At that point and you know, atthat time I was also just
getting married, or just marriedat least, and we wanted to
experience life around ourfamily as well.
So that's another reason why wemoved back.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, that's a sad reality.
You know a lot of people moveoverseas because they think it's
a lot safer, but sometimes it'snot the case.
You also mentioned in yourarticle that you'd get comments
like with that type of luck, youshould move back to South
Africa.
How did those kinds of commentsaffect your outlook on both
countries?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, it's an interesting question and, like I
said, you know, I think it'sall about your attitude and your
energy.
So if you're negative in theone place, you're probably going
to be negative in another.
And the one thing I loathe is,as an example, those people that
move overseas and try tojustify their decision to move
overseas and end up slatingSouth Africa but supporting the
(04:13):
protea, supporting the springbox.
You know what?
If you're going to do that,don't support anything.
Move and move outright.
But at the end of the day, Ithink every place has its pros
and cons.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
To be entirely honest , I mean you did mention that.
You know, despite all theglamour, the ski trips and the
summers in the Riviera, youstill went back to South Africa.
What does that say about whattruly matters in life, I think?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
over time, what truly matters has changed.
You know, remember, I movedback in 2005.
Since then I've had theopportunity of having kids and
all of that, and you actually,over time, you change what is
important.
You want your health, you wantyour family, you want to be
happy.
It's not always about howwealthy you are and all of that,
(04:58):
but always, coming back toSouth Africa, there's something
so special and some people mightdisagree with me, but when I
arrive and the customs officer,I greet him in his language and
he smiles back at me and it'salways a wonderful process and
you get all these people at theairport.
Yes, they want to offer yourides and all that, but there's
an energy about arriving back inSouth Africa.
(05:20):
Even these days, it feels likewhen I leave South Africa, part
of me still stays on that tarmacand when I come back, a part of
me just reattaches to myself.
So there's so much about SouthAfrica that I will always
promote, you know, and inparticular the, the people of
this country.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And that brings me to an interesting point.
You know, with people slatingSouth Africa and obviously
people warned you about goingback to South Africa, especially
on the job market whatmotivated you to do it?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
anyway, yeah, at that point in time there was a lot
of negativity and I think you'vejust got to stay confident and
true to yourself and yourabilities and the confidence and
the positivity.
So what I ended up doing was Isaved up for many months,
thinking that I was going to beunemployed for probably eight
(06:08):
months.
When I came back because I wasthe wrong demographic, I was the
wrong gender, the wrongethnicity, etc.
Half the value of what Iactually should have been
earning.
But I decided you know what, Iwill prove myself and I will
show that I will be good in thisrole and actually within the
(06:33):
first nine months I had aboutthree increases in that role and
ended up earning what I shouldhave been earning in the first
place.
So it's just about believing inyourself and having that
confidence and putting yourselfout there and anybody coming
back.
Look, the job market is reallyreally tough at the moment.
The economy is really flat, butthere's an opportunity for
everybody.
So I do say to people thatlower your cost standards a
little bit or your salaryexpectations, and you may be
(06:56):
better off.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Okay, because I know you transitioned from finance to
recruitment.
Yes, that's right.
What drove that pivot and howdid you find your footing in
such a different industry?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
At the time I was working in the asset management
industry as a project accountantand I was approached by an
international recruitmentcompany.
And the chap said to me listen,I met you a year ago when you
came back to South Africa.
I enjoyed our meeting.
Would you be interested injoining us as a recruiter to
head up our banking andfinancial services division?
(07:29):
To which I actually said to thechap well, you must be mad, are
you?
How does your mind?
I'm just a boring oldaccountant.
Why would you think of me?
And well, I'm not going to usethe verbose terms that he used,
but he retorted and said well,verbose terms that he used.
(07:50):
But he retorted and said well,when I met you, I thought you
were a rubbish accountant with agreat personality, so I thought
you'd be better in recruiting.
So, in all fairness, I did turnhim down actually and I thought
you know what?
I'm not a sales person, I'm notthis kind of people's person.
But actually he approached meanother twice, fed me some beers
at one of the meetings andslowly the seed was planted and
started to germinate and Ithought actually, maybe I can
make a difference to people,maybe I can change people's
(08:12):
lives.
There's nothing better thanfinding somebody an opportunity
and changing their lives andchanging their family's lives?
And actually when I got intorecruitment found that I hit it
like a duck to water.
So I was very, very chuffedwith the industry.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, I mean 90% of the business deals in South
Africa happen over a good costof logger right.
Oh, indeed, indeed, okay.
So let's talk about whereyou're at right now.
I know you own your ownbusiness.
Do you want to just tell us alittle bit about that business?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, so what happened was I was in
recruitment at thisinternational recruitment firm
for about two and a half yearsand I wanted to be more South
Africanized.
I wanted, you know, I've alwayshad this inherent passion for
South Africa, and so what Iended up doing was leaving them
and setting up a company calledRed Eye Recruitment, and that
(08:59):
was in the heart of the creditcrisis.
So most people thought that Iwas crazy.
Who would start a business inthe heart of the credit crisis?
So most people thought that Iwas crazy.
Who would start a business inthe heart of a credit crisis?
My business plan suggested thatnobody would actually be silly
enough to do it.
So therefore, my startupcompetition was going to be a
lot less, and I ended up justtaking the plunge and taking a
chance.
I knew I was good enough Forthe first time.
(09:21):
I knew I was confident enoughto grow and build a business,
and all I really wanted to do atthat point was earn the same
amount of money that I'd earnedin the previous company, which
it actually ended up that in myfirst five months, I ended up
earning the same as I did in theprevious year.
So I got very, very lucky very,very early and I ended up just
(09:45):
building this beautiful businessthat was more BEE focused and
more South African focused andmore South Africanized if there
is such a thing and over time,then I started focusing on
executive search and talentmappings and Africa work.
And then I actually had abusiness partner that we set up,
(10:06):
a company called Reda Holborn,which was more divisionalized,
that focused on HR and IT andfinance and legal and marketing,
et cetera.
So we actually started growingreally really nicely and
marketing, et cetera.
So we actually started growingreally, really nicely.
Where am I today?
Well, gee whiz, I can tell youso many stories about the ups
and downs of recruitment and theups and downs of running a
business and the ups and downsof running a business in South
(10:27):
Africa especially.
It's very different to the restof the world.
It was about two years ago 2023,my wife and I had discussed
giving the kids an internationaleducation and then we decided
that we wanted to actually moveto the UK to educate them and,
at the same time, I wanted tobuild my business in the UK and
(10:50):
Europe.
One of two things.
Number one helping SouthAfricans that want to be more
globalized, not to take SouthAfricans out of South Africa.
That's against my passion, butgive that brain drain an
opportunity to get the brain sothat they can also move back at
a later stage.
The number of people that wantto do that is immense.
And then also just to find thoseSouth Africans that also want
(11:11):
to move back to South Africa andI know that a lot of people say
nobody's coming back,everybody's leaving.
You will be amazed how manypeople are coming back, for
whatever reasons, whether it'sthey can't find a job, or Brexit
has kicked them out, or theywant to be with their family.
They miss the sun, they missthe people.
There's so many elements likethat.
(11:32):
So, yeah, so I've set up theinternational business and then
I travel back to South Africaonce a quarter for about three,
four weeks.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So basically you help people that have gone back to
South Africa get work.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
And I also do it the other way around where companies
in South Africa want to expandtheir offerings abroad and I
actually help those mid-size orstartups to actually grow their
businesses with people overseas.
And that's all about mainlyhelping South Africans,
Obviously visa dependent becauseit's become a lot more
stringent abroad with thosevisas.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, I was going to say with the whole visa process.
I know in the States things areclamped down a lot, especially
with South Africans.
So a question for you how doyou balance the chaos with the
opportunity?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
When you say the chaos, what chaos are you
referring to?
The traveling on my personalside, the family, or Well, both.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So you know the personal side with the traveling
, but also with all the newregulations and things, visa
opportunities and visaopportunities have been taken
away, like the Brexit thing.
We had somebody on the show notso long ago who's actually
having a problem in Sweden withBrexit.
They've been kicked out.
So how do you balance all that?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Look, I haven't encountered too many of those
because a lot of the people havegot the British passports or
the EU passports that we doassist already.
Some of the clients that we'vegot abroad are comfortable to
sponsor the people or send themacross on and forgive me, I
don't know the exact terms, butthose highly skilled migrant
visas or the transfer visas, theH1s, the L1s, et cetera.
(13:11):
So that is the case, butadmittedly it has become a lot
tougher and obviously there'sall the double tax agreements
and estate duties, et cetera, etcetera.
We can get into the taxes, butit becomes very complicated.
So, effectively, what we do tryand do is help those that
actually already have the visaprocesses in place or the
(13:33):
passports, and that's obviouslywhat I've had to do as well.
You know from my side of thingsit is a lengthy process and a
costly process as well.
By the way, if you are going towork visa route, you, as an
example, in the UK, you've gotto pay your national insurance
upfront per person in yourfamily for five years.
You have to pay it upfront.
(13:54):
So it's very, very costly.
And then if you haven't got asettled status, as an example,
it's costly for the visa and allof that and you've got to get
all the share codes.
It's a massive legal processand a lot of people are not too
keen to go down that road.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Do you help navigate that whole process for, say, a
South African who doesn't have avisa and is interested in
working in the UK, and obviouslyvice versa.
But do you help them with allof that?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
We don't help them personally because that's not
the function of our recruitmentbusiness.
We do put them in touch withthe right legal team to assist
them and to facilitate.
But, generally speaking, theclients that we deal with have
got their global mobility teamsand they normally sort that out
through the bigger corporates.
Okay, so, rob, let's talk sortthat out through the bigger
corporates.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Okay.
So, Rob, let's talk for aminute about your visa.
Yeah, what visa are you on andhow did you get there?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So, look, I had to go through the sponsorship process
because, unfortunately, eventhough I lived in the UK many
years ago, at that point in timeyou could use the EU passport
and stay very comfortably, andthen, after we left, it didn't
really make any difference.
But some people were fortunateenough to get that settled
status.
I think it was 2019, 2020.
(15:07):
I had set up my company in theUK pre-Brexit because I knew
that there was going to be somefurther compliance issues and
all of that, and then Iobviously did everything through
my business at a later stagewhen we moved across.
Okay, so yeah, but it is aprocess and it is quite a
(15:27):
complex process admittedly Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So now I want to transition into moving back to
the UK.
What was your motivation forthat?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Oh gosh, my motivation or my wife's
motivation?
I think that's two separatethings.
So I get told what to do and Ijust do it, as do we all.
Yeah, right, but all jokesaside, you know, I think we've
traveled a lot with the kids tothe UK and they always had a
vision of studying and going touniversity in the UK.
(15:59):
So what we thought was you know, instead of waiting for that
particular point, let's get theminto the school system a little
bit early on, so that we don'tbreak up the family early and we
can all be together.
And I always wanted to expand mybusiness into the UK and Europe
anyway.
So it was a great opportunityto get the kids that
international education thatthey want and integrate them
(16:23):
into the system before theuniversity time and at the same
time, while I'm young enough andcan still do it, to set up the
business on that side.
And my wife always loved the UKas well.
So for us it's less aboutimmigration and more about an
adventure and a journey.
So wherever we go, we try to behappy, we try and enjoy it and
(16:43):
we try and make it an adventure,because you don't know what
tomorrow holds.
So we just have that adventurefor ourselves.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And whereabouts in London do you live?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
now we are in the north of London, so still within
the greater London area, what'scalled greater London, within
the M25.
We're in a town called Elstree,which is pretty close to
probably the biggest town thatpeople will know is St Albans,
25 minutes by train into centralLondon, which is amazing.
(17:12):
I can see all my clients there,whilst living in the
countryside as well.
So it is really a beautifullittle town, summer more
beautiful than winter, winter'sa little chilly, but you know
what?
We take it on the chin.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So do you encourage people to move back To?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
leave the UK to go back to South Africa.
Yeah, you know, again, I'm thebiggest advocate of South Africa
and I never encourage anybody.
You know I never try andpersuade or dissuade anybody
from anything.
There's nothing worse than anaysayer and say you must go
back and you must do this.
But I think over time peoplealso realize the pros and cons
(17:49):
of South Africa.
You know you'll always getthose that left and never want
to go back.
But so many people have theirfamilies in South Africa and
they miss the good bride place.
And you know there's smalllittle things that you miss
about the people.
The people here are alwayshappy and friendly and smiling.
People care a lot.
People go to each other'shouses you know it's such a
(18:12):
social aspect.
And then obviously, family is abig one.
A lot of people, their parentsstart getting a little bit older
and they need to go back to bewith the parents and it's just a
lot easier.
And then there's just the costof things in South Africa.
And yes, south Africa hasbecome very, very expensive in
comparison to what it was a fewyears ago with all the tariffs
and just general expense ofthings.
(18:33):
But there's also the lure ofhaving a nice retirement or a
nice sunny vibe in South Africa.
So I think that's also a biglure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
And I think you're living the best of both worlds.
To be honest, there's not muchyou can miss about South Africa.
Do you have a lot of SouthAfrican friends and colleagues
and stuff in the UK?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, Absolutely, and I was actually just saying to a
client here in South Africatoday that you know you're
attracted to your own and youknow, in South Africa, when you
live here, you're either a Balior a Cape Tonian or a Durbanite,
and all that.
When you go to London oranywhere abroad, you are mates
(19:17):
with the South Africans.
When you live in the UK, you'remates with South Africans.
There's no divide, and so yourbigger social circle is
generally South Africans thatyou have at your homes.
With that said, I have made avery big, conscious effort to
have friends that are British.
I play golf with very, veryawesome British people.
I've formed part of a circlethere and you've got to try to
(19:40):
integrate yourself.
Just remember, I mean, the onething that I do say to people
when you do live in anothercountry is you are a guest in
their country.
A lot of the times, southAfricans go abroad arrogantly
and they'll go we this and wethat and puff out their chest,
and you've got to realize thatif you go to somebody else's
home, you've got to respect themand respect their home, and I
(20:03):
always say that the mostsuccessful people that live
abroad are those that are very,very respectful of the other
culture and just enjoy it forwhat it is.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
That's why you're there, after all.
You know.
That's fantastic advice, rob,and I wish a lot of people would
adhere to that.
Rob, I've got a question foryou.
What does success mean to you?
That's changed over time.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Warren, success 10, 15 years ago was how much money
I had and how many properties Ihad and what kind of car I had
and how I looked.
Success today is very, verydifferent.
Success to me is have I got awell-rounded family?
Have I got kids that have gotgood manners?
Have I got a team of staff thatrespect me and like me and have
(20:48):
changed their lives?
And it's not about having athousand people on your staff
and these massive salaries andall of that.
So success is different fordifferent people.
But for me, am I healthy?
Am I enjoying life?
Have I got the flexibility inlife to actually do the things
that I want to do?
Because so many people makethat mistake of trying to earn
(21:10):
so much money in life that theyforget to actually have fun.
So if I'm having a little bitof fun with a wonderful family,
with good health, able to travel, for me that's the biggest
success ever.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
And yeah, that's amazing, Rob.
I don't know if you've heard alot of the episodes, but we
always end off the show.
On one final question Do youthink the grass is greener on
the other side?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I'll answer that with something somebody said to me.
I was at the gym last night atOld Edge, virgin Active, and I
haven't seen this one chap forages.
And he said to me I was at thegym last night at Old Edge,
virgin Active, and I haven'tseen this one chap for ages.
And he said to me what do youprefer, london or South Africa?
And it was.
I didn't even think about it.
I didn't even think about it.
I just said South Africa.
And you know, for certain peopleand many people, the grass is
(21:57):
greener because perhaps theydidn't have the best of
experiences in South Africa.
So those people that left foradverse reasons, it possibly is
greener.
I don't believe that it'sgreener on one side or the other
.
I believe that it's what youmake of it and if you go for the
adventure and you make the mostof wherever you are and have
(22:18):
fun and just be humble, I thinkit's brilliant on both sides.
Um, do I prefer south africa?
There's not even a question ofa doubt.
I think my lifestyle suits mebetter, uh, for the outdoors etc
.
And the sports and all of thatin south africa.
But, uh, I will never, everslate where I live, because I
always make the most of it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
yeah, and once a south african, always a south
african African at all, that'sfor sure.
I mean, even living in the US,you know it's Boka for life and
we braai every night, you know.
Try and bring that spirit back,even though we don't have a lot
of South African family orfriends here.
Once a South African, always aSouth African.
Rob, it's been a fantasticpleasure having you on the show.
(23:03):
Thank you so much for your timeand hopefully people take a bit
of advice from you, because yougave us some fantastic advice
and good luck, man, and we'llcatch up with you again and get
an update.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Warren, I'm buying the beers when we meet up and
just thank you for having me onyour show 100%.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Thank you, Rob, Appreciate it.
Yeah, cheers, Bye-bye.
Well, that really was afantastic conversation with Rob
sharing some nice insights fromboth sides of the continent.
If anyone's looking for anyinformation on getting work
either in South Africa or the UKand wants to contact Rob, I'll
put the website in thedescription below.
(23:42):
If you enjoyed this episode,make sure to subscribe and share
it with anyone thinking aboutmaking the move.
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(24:02):
Check you Tuesday.
Welcome back to South Africans Abroad a show for
expat South Africans and anyoneinterested in the experiences of
those who have made the moveoverseas.
Each episode we'll hear fromSouth Africans who have left the
country to pursue newopportunities, be with loved
ones or simply follow theirdreams.
We'll explore the challengesand triumphs of life as an expat
and the unique perspective thatcomes with being a South
(00:23):
African abroad.
Life as an expat and the uniqueperspective that comes with
being a South African abroad.
I'm your host, warren Burley,an expat South African who, like
many, followed the dream ofworking overseas.
Whether you're an expatyourself or just curious about
the expat experience, join us aswe delve into the motivations,
struggles and joys of being aSouth African living overseas.
Today's guest is a man who camefull circle.
Rob left South Africa, wentabroad, then moved back to South
(00:47):
Africa to create a thrivingbusiness.
Then he moved back to the UK,but never stopped flying the
flag for SA From boardrooms inLondon to bras back home.
Rob remains proudly SouthAfrican, connecting talent
across continents and provingthat, no matter where you live,
the spirit of home never leavesyou.
Rob, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Warren, thank you so much for having us on the show.
I've heard so much about youand very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Do you want to just tell us a little bit about
yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Let me see the background Rob Malitz who is he?
So I finished my articles inSouth Africa and then, after
articles, I spent a year in theUK more like your partying year
and then the audit firm that Iwas a part of invited me to come
back to them in Atlanta,georgia, where I spent two years
in the US as an accountant andauditor, thereafter decided to
(01:38):
go back to the UK, where I spentanother five and a half years
in the UK and working more as aproject accountant.
Five and a half years in the UKand working more as a project
accountant, and after that,believe it or not actually left
the UK because there was moreelements of crime than I care to
imagine.
So I always said well, if I'mgoing to be surrounded by these
(02:00):
elements, I'd rather actually gohome to the country that I love
.
So I ended up going back toSouth Africa and spent another
18 years in South Africa.
I started off as an accountantthere and then was headhunted of
all places into recruitment,then spent another 18 years in
South Africa, after which mykids were a little bit older
(02:20):
then and just wanted to givethem some international
opportunities for study.
So I moved back UK side foranother adventure, and that's
where I sit today.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Okay, so that's quite a journey.
I just want to go back to yourlife in the UK.
You wrote a couple of articlesa while back and some of the
things really stood out for me.
You said you had a couple oftough experiences in London
burglaries, assaults, theft.
How did those shape yourdecision to go back home?
Did they change your sense ofwhat safety really means?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You know, absolutely, and just remember that you've
got a very, very differentlifestyle when you live abroad.
There's not all the comfortsand the niceties that you have
on the other side.
So you know, I think also yourattitude determines your
altitude.
And in my heart of hearts I wasout there, but possibly the
(03:13):
negative energy was possiblyattracting the crime.
In fact, my name is Rob and Iactually thought it was becoming
a suggestion as opposed toanything else.
So I thought you know what,let's go back to the sunny
shores of South Africa.
At that point and you know, atthat time I was also just
getting married, or just marriedat least, and we wanted to
experience life around ourfamily as well.
So that's another reason why wemoved back.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, that's a sad reality.
You know a lot of people moveoverseas because they think it's
a lot safer, but sometimes it'snot the case.
You also mentioned in yourarticle that you'd get comments
like with that type of luck, youshould move back to South
Africa.
How did those kinds of commentsaffect your outlook on both
countries?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, it's an interesting question and, like I
said, you know, I think it'sall about your attitude and your
energy.
So if you're negative in theone place, you're probably going
to be negative in another.
And the one thing I loathe is,as an example, those people that
move overseas and try tojustify their decision to move
overseas and end up slatingSouth Africa but supporting the
(04:13):
protea, supporting the springbox.
You know what?
If you're going to do that,don't support anything.
Move and move outright.
But at the end of the day, Ithink every place has its pros
and cons.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
To be entirely honest , I mean you did mention that.
You know, despite all theglamour, the ski trips and the
summers in the Riviera, youstill went back to South Africa.
What does that say about whattruly matters in life, I think?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
over time, what truly matters has changed.
You know, remember, I movedback in 2005.
Since then I've had theopportunity of having kids and
all of that, and you actually,over time, you change what is
important.
You want your health, you wantyour family, you want to be
happy.
It's not always about howwealthy you are and all of that,
(04:58):
but always, coming back toSouth Africa, there's something
so special and some people mightdisagree with me, but when I
arrive and the customs officer,I greet him in his language and
he smiles back at me and it'salways a wonderful process and
you get all these people at theairport.
Yes, they want to offer yourides and all that, but there's
an energy about arriving back inSouth Africa.
(05:20):
Even these days, it feels likewhen I leave South Africa, part
of me still stays on that tarmacand when I come back, a part of
me just reattaches to myself.
So there's so much about SouthAfrica that I will always
promote, you know, and inparticular the, the people of
this country.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And that brings me to an interesting point.
You know, with people slatingSouth Africa and obviously
people warned you about goingback to South Africa, especially
on the job market whatmotivated you to do it?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
anyway, yeah, at that point in time there was a lot
of negativity and I think you'vejust got to stay confident and
true to yourself and yourabilities and the confidence and
the positivity.
So what I ended up doing was Isaved up for many months,
thinking that I was going to beunemployed for probably eight
(06:08):
months.
When I came back because I wasthe wrong demographic, I was the
wrong gender, the wrongethnicity, etc.
Half the value of what Iactually should have been
earning.
But I decided you know what, Iwill prove myself and I will
show that I will be good in thisrole and actually within the
(06:33):
first nine months I had aboutthree increases in that role and
ended up earning what I shouldhave been earning in the first
place.
So it's just about believing inyourself and having that
confidence and putting yourselfout there and anybody coming
back.
Look, the job market is reallyreally tough at the moment.
The economy is really flat, butthere's an opportunity for
everybody.
So I do say to people thatlower your cost standards a
little bit or your salaryexpectations, and you may be
(06:56):
better off.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Okay, because I know you transitioned from finance to
recruitment.
Yes, that's right.
What drove that pivot and howdid you find your footing in
such a different industry?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
At the time I was working in the asset management
industry as a project accountantand I was approached by an
international recruitmentcompany.
And the chap said to me listen,I met you a year ago when you
came back to South Africa.
I enjoyed our meeting.
Would you be interested injoining us as a recruiter to
head up our banking andfinancial services division?
(07:29):
To which I actually said to thechap well, you must be mad, are
you?
How does your mind?
I'm just a boring oldaccountant.
Why would you think of me?
And well, I'm not going to usethe verbose terms that he used,
but he retorted and said well,verbose terms that he used.
(07:50):
But he retorted and said well,when I met you, I thought you
were a rubbish accountant with agreat personality, so I thought
you'd be better in recruiting.
So, in all fairness, I did turnhim down actually and I thought
you know what?
I'm not a sales person, I'm notthis kind of people's person.
But actually he approached meanother twice, fed me some beers
at one of the meetings andslowly the seed was planted and
started to germinate and Ithought actually, maybe I can
make a difference to people,maybe I can change people's
(08:12):
lives.
There's nothing better thanfinding somebody an opportunity
and changing their lives andchanging their family's lives?
And actually when I got intorecruitment found that I hit it
like a duck to water.
So I was very, very chuffedwith the industry.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, I mean 90% of the business deals in South
Africa happen over a good costof logger right.
Oh, indeed, indeed, okay.
So let's talk about whereyou're at right now.
I know you own your ownbusiness.
Do you want to just tell us alittle bit about that business?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, so what happened was I was in
recruitment at thisinternational recruitment firm
for about two and a half yearsand I wanted to be more South
Africanized.
I wanted, you know, I've alwayshad this inherent passion for
South Africa, and so what Iended up doing was leaving them
and setting up a company calledRed Eye Recruitment, and that
(08:59):
was in the heart of the creditcrisis.
So most people thought that Iwas crazy.
Who would start a business inthe heart of the credit crisis?
So most people thought that Iwas crazy.
Who would start a business inthe heart of a credit crisis?
My business plan suggested thatnobody would actually be silly
enough to do it.
So therefore, my startupcompetition was going to be a
lot less, and I ended up justtaking the plunge and taking a
chance.
I knew I was good enough Forthe first time.
(09:21):
I knew I was confident enoughto grow and build a business,
and all I really wanted to do atthat point was earn the same
amount of money that I'd earnedin the previous company, which
it actually ended up that in myfirst five months, I ended up
earning the same as I did in theprevious year.
So I got very, very lucky very,very early and I ended up just
(09:45):
building this beautiful businessthat was more BEE focused and
more South African focused andmore South Africanized if there
is such a thing and over time,then I started focusing on
executive search and talentmappings and Africa work.
And then I actually had abusiness partner that we set up,
(10:06):
a company called Reda Holborn,which was more divisionalized,
that focused on HR and IT andfinance and legal and marketing,
et cetera.
So we actually started growingreally really nicely and
marketing, et cetera.
So we actually started growingreally, really nicely.
Where am I today?
Well, gee whiz, I can tell youso many stories about the ups
and downs of recruitment and theups and downs of running a
business and the ups and downsof running a business in South
(10:27):
Africa especially.
It's very different to the restof the world.
It was about two years ago 2023,my wife and I had discussed
giving the kids an internationaleducation and then we decided
that we wanted to actually moveto the UK to educate them and,
at the same time, I wanted tobuild my business in the UK and
(10:50):
Europe.
One of two things.
Number one helping SouthAfricans that want to be more
globalized, not to take SouthAfricans out of South Africa.
That's against my passion, butgive that brain drain an
opportunity to get the brain sothat they can also move back at
a later stage.
The number of people that wantto do that is immense.
And then also just to find thoseSouth Africans that also want
(11:11):
to move back to South Africa andI know that a lot of people say
nobody's coming back,everybody's leaving.
You will be amazed how manypeople are coming back, for
whatever reasons, whether it'sthey can't find a job, or Brexit
has kicked them out, or theywant to be with their family.
They miss the sun, they missthe people.
There's so many elements likethat.
(11:32):
So, yeah, so I've set up theinternational business and then
I travel back to South Africaonce a quarter for about three,
four weeks.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So basically you help people that have gone back to
South Africa get work.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
And I also do it the other way around where companies
in South Africa want to expandtheir offerings abroad and I
actually help those mid-size orstartups to actually grow their
businesses with people overseas.
And that's all about mainlyhelping South Africans,
Obviously visa dependent becauseit's become a lot more
stringent abroad with thosevisas.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, I was going to say with the whole visa process.
I know in the States things areclamped down a lot, especially
with South Africans.
So a question for you how doyou balance the chaos with the
opportunity?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
When you say the chaos, what chaos are you
referring to?
The traveling on my personalside, the family, or Well, both.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So you know the personal side with the traveling
, but also with all the newregulations and things, visa
opportunities and visaopportunities have been taken
away, like the Brexit thing.
We had somebody on the show notso long ago who's actually
having a problem in Sweden withBrexit.
They've been kicked out.
So how do you balance all that?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Look, I haven't encountered too many of those
because a lot of the people havegot the British passports or
the EU passports that we doassist already.
Some of the clients that we'vegot abroad are comfortable to
sponsor the people or send themacross on and forgive me, I
don't know the exact terms, butthose highly skilled migrant
visas or the transfer visas, theH1s, the L1s, et cetera.
(13:11):
So that is the case, butadmittedly it has become a lot
tougher and obviously there'sall the double tax agreements
and estate duties, et cetera, etcetera.
We can get into the taxes, butit becomes very complicated.
So, effectively, what we do tryand do is help those that
actually already have the visaprocesses in place or the
(13:33):
passports, and that's obviouslywhat I've had to do as well.
You know from my side of thingsit is a lengthy process and a
costly process as well.
By the way, if you are going towork visa route, you, as an
example, in the UK, you've gotto pay your national insurance
upfront per person in yourfamily for five years.
You have to pay it upfront.
(13:54):
So it's very, very costly.
And then if you haven't got asettled status, as an example,
it's costly for the visa and allof that and you've got to get
all the share codes.
It's a massive legal processand a lot of people are not too
keen to go down that road.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Do you help navigate that whole process for, say, a
South African who doesn't have avisa and is interested in
working in the UK, and obviouslyvice versa.
But do you help them with allof that?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
We don't help them personally because that's not
the function of our recruitmentbusiness.
We do put them in touch withthe right legal team to assist
them and to facilitate.
But, generally speaking, theclients that we deal with have
got their global mobility teamsand they normally sort that out
through the bigger corporates.
Okay, so, rob, let's talk sortthat out through the bigger
corporates.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Okay.
So, Rob, let's talk for aminute about your visa.
Yeah, what visa are you on andhow did you get there?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So, look, I had to go through the sponsorship process
because, unfortunately, eventhough I lived in the UK many
years ago, at that point in timeyou could use the EU passport
and stay very comfortably, andthen, after we left, it didn't
really make any difference.
But some people were fortunateenough to get that settled
status.
I think it was 2019, 2020.
(15:07):
I had set up my company in theUK pre-Brexit because I knew
that there was going to be somefurther compliance issues and
all of that, and then Iobviously did everything through
my business at a later stagewhen we moved across.
Okay, so yeah, but it is aprocess and it is quite a
(15:27):
complex process admittedly Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So now I want to transition into moving back to
the UK.
What was your motivation forthat?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Oh gosh, my motivation or my wife's
motivation?
I think that's two separatethings.
So I get told what to do and Ijust do it, as do we all.
Yeah, right, but all jokesaside, you know, I think we've
traveled a lot with the kids tothe UK and they always had a
vision of studying and going touniversity in the UK.
(15:59):
So what we thought was you know, instead of waiting for that
particular point, let's get theminto the school system a little
bit early on, so that we don'tbreak up the family early and we
can all be together.
And I always wanted to expand mybusiness into the UK and Europe
anyway.
So it was a great opportunityto get the kids that
international education thatthey want and integrate them
(16:23):
into the system before theuniversity time and at the same
time, while I'm young enough andcan still do it, to set up the
business on that side.
And my wife always loved the UKas well.
So for us it's less aboutimmigration and more about an
adventure and a journey.
So wherever we go, we try to behappy, we try and enjoy it and
(16:43):
we try and make it an adventure,because you don't know what
tomorrow holds.
So we just have that adventurefor ourselves.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And whereabouts in London do you live?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
now we are in the north of London, so still within
the greater London area, what'scalled greater London, within
the M25.
We're in a town called Elstree,which is pretty close to
probably the biggest town thatpeople will know is St Albans,
25 minutes by train into centralLondon, which is amazing.
(17:12):
I can see all my clients there,whilst living in the
countryside as well.
So it is really a beautifullittle town, summer more
beautiful than winter, winter'sa little chilly, but you know
what?
We take it on the chin.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So do you encourage people to move back To?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
leave the UK to go back to South Africa.
Yeah, you know, again, I'm thebiggest advocate of South Africa
and I never encourage anybody.
You know I never try andpersuade or dissuade anybody
from anything.
There's nothing worse than anaysayer and say you must go
back and you must do this.
But I think over time peoplealso realize the pros and cons
(17:49):
of South Africa.
You know you'll always getthose that left and never want
to go back.
But so many people have theirfamilies in South Africa and
they miss the good bride place.
And you know there's smalllittle things that you miss
about the people.
The people here are alwayshappy and friendly and smiling.
People care a lot.
People go to each other'shouses you know it's such a
(18:12):
social aspect.
And then obviously, family is abig one.
A lot of people, their parentsstart getting a little bit older
and they need to go back to bewith the parents and it's just a
lot easier.
And then there's just the costof things in South Africa.
And yes, south Africa hasbecome very, very expensive in
comparison to what it was a fewyears ago with all the tariffs
and just general expense ofthings.
(18:33):
But there's also the lure ofhaving a nice retirement or a
nice sunny vibe in South Africa.
So I think that's also a biglure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
And I think you're living the best of both worlds.
To be honest, there's not muchyou can miss about South Africa.
Do you have a lot of SouthAfrican friends and colleagues
and stuff in the UK?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, Absolutely, and I was actually just saying to a
client here in South Africatoday that you know you're
attracted to your own and youknow, in South Africa, when you
live here, you're either a Balior a Cape Tonian or a Durbanite,
and all that.
When you go to London oranywhere abroad, you are mates
(19:17):
with the South Africans.
When you live in the UK, you'remates with South Africans.
There's no divide, and so yourbigger social circle is
generally South Africans thatyou have at your homes.
With that said, I have made avery big, conscious effort to
have friends that are British.
I play golf with very, veryawesome British people.
I've formed part of a circlethere and you've got to try to
(19:40):
integrate yourself.
Just remember, I mean, the onething that I do say to people
when you do live in anothercountry is you are a guest in
their country.
A lot of the times, southAfricans go abroad arrogantly
and they'll go we this and wethat and puff out their chest,
and you've got to realize thatif you go to somebody else's
home, you've got to respect themand respect their home, and I
(20:03):
always say that the mostsuccessful people that live
abroad are those that are very,very respectful of the other
culture and just enjoy it forwhat it is.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
That's why you're there, after all.
You know.
That's fantastic advice, rob,and I wish a lot of people would
adhere to that.
Rob, I've got a question foryou.
What does success mean to you?
That's changed over time.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Warren, success 10, 15 years ago was how much money
I had and how many properties Ihad and what kind of car I had
and how I looked.
Success today is very, verydifferent.
Success to me is have I got awell-rounded family?
Have I got kids that have gotgood manners?
Have I got a team of staff thatrespect me and like me and have
(20:48):
changed their lives?
And it's not about having athousand people on your staff
and these massive salaries andall of that.
So success is different fordifferent people.
But for me, am I healthy?
Am I enjoying life?
Have I got the flexibility inlife to actually do the things
that I want to do?
Because so many people makethat mistake of trying to earn
(21:10):
so much money in life that theyforget to actually have fun.
So if I'm having a little bitof fun with a wonderful family,
with good health, able to travel, for me that's the biggest
success ever.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
And yeah, that's amazing, Rob.
I don't know if you've heard alot of the episodes, but we
always end off the show.
On one final question Do youthink the grass is greener on
the other side?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I'll answer that with something somebody said to me.
I was at the gym last night atOld Edge, virgin Active, and I
haven't seen this one chap forages.
And he said to me I was at thegym last night at Old Edge,
virgin Active, and I haven'tseen this one chap for ages.
And he said to me what do youprefer, london or South Africa?
And it was.
I didn't even think about it.
I didn't even think about it.
I just said South Africa.
And you know, for certain peopleand many people, the grass is
(21:57):
greener because perhaps theydidn't have the best of
experiences in South Africa.
So those people that left foradverse reasons, it possibly is
greener.
I don't believe that it'sgreener on one side or the other
.
I believe that it's what youmake of it and if you go for the
adventure and you make the mostof wherever you are and have
(22:18):
fun and just be humble, I thinkit's brilliant on both sides.
Um, do I prefer south africa?
There's not even a question ofa doubt.
I think my lifestyle suits mebetter, uh, for the outdoors etc
.
And the sports and all of thatin south africa.
But, uh, I will never, everslate where I live, because I
always make the most of it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
yeah, and once a south african, always a south
african African at all, that'sfor sure.
I mean, even living in the US,you know it's Boka for life and
we braai every night, you know.
Try and bring that spirit back,even though we don't have a lot
of South African family orfriends here.
Once a South African, always aSouth African.
Rob, it's been a fantasticpleasure having you on the show.
(23:03):
Thank you so much for your timeand hopefully people take a bit
of advice from you, because yougave us some fantastic advice
and good luck, man, and we'llcatch up with you again and get
an update.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Warren, I'm buying the beers when we meet up and
just thank you for having me onyour show 100%.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Thank you, Rob, Appreciate it.
Yeah, cheers, Bye-bye.
Well, that really was afantastic conversation with Rob
sharing some nice insights fromboth sides of the continent.
If anyone's looking for anyinformation on getting work
either in South Africa or the UKand wants to contact Rob, I'll
put the website in thedescription below.
(23:42):
If you enjoyed this episode,make sure to subscribe and share
it with anyone thinking aboutmaking the move.
And hey, don't forget, we needsponsors to keep South Africans
Abroad going.
If you want to sponsor the show, head over to
saabroadpodcastcom and become asponsor.
Also, leave your comments andsuggestions and we'd love to
hear from you and to ourlisteners.
(24:02):
Check you Tuesday.
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