April 10, 2025 • 27 mins
Roy Bowden's journey from the sun-drenched beaches of Port Shepston to the snow-covered forests of Sweden offers a fascinating window into the dramatic contrasts of expatriate life. As a boat builder who once helped prepare the first blind man to sail solo from South Africa to Australia, Roy's adventurous spirit has carried him through multiple countries before finding an unexpected home in Scandinavia.
The cultural shift proves as dramatic as the climatic one. Roy vividly describes the transition from South Africa's open, spontaneous social culture to Sweden's more structured, reserved society where "you wouldn't just pitch up at somebody's house on a weekend." This adjustment represents one of the most significant challenges for South Africans abroad – recalibrating expectations around friendship and community building.
Brexit introduced a bureaucratic nightmare that continues to shadow Roy's life in Sweden. Despite being married to a Swedish citizen for nine years, the end of EU freedom of movement left him in a precarious legal position, highlighting how international politics can dramatically impact individual lives without warning. His four-year battle to secure legal residency serves as a cautionary tale about the complex, shifting landscape of international immigration.
Yet amidst these challenges, Roy finds profound joy in Sweden's seasonal contrasts, comprehensive social systems, and the vibrant community of 12,000 South Africans who have created support networks across the country. From annual camping weekends to homemade biltong, these expatriates maintain their cultural identity while adapting to Swedish life – embodying Roy's philosophy that "the grass is greener where you water it."
For anyone contemplating a similar journey, Roy's story offers both inspiration and practical wisdom. Success abroad requires thorough preparation, realistic expectations, and complete commitment to adaptation. The expatriate experience isn't simply about finding greener grass – it's about learning to cultivate your own garden in foreign soil.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to South Africans Abroad, a show for
expat South Africans and anyoneinterested in the experiences of
those who have made the moveoverseas.
Each episode we'll hear fromSouth Africans who have left the
country to pursue newopportunities, be with loved
ones or simply follow theirdreams.
We'll explore the challengesand triumphs of life as an expat
and the unique perspective thatcomes with being a South
(00:24):
African abroad, of life as anexpat and the unique perspective
that comes with being a SouthAfrican abroad.
I'm your host, warren Burley,an expat South African who, like
many, followed the dream ofworking overseas.
Whether you're an expatyourself or just curious about
the expat experience, join us aswe delve into the motivations,
struggles and joys of being aSouth African living overseas.
Today we've got a fascinatingguest, roy Bowden.
Roy made his move from SouthAfrica to Sweden and we're going
(00:47):
to get into all of that theculture, the shocks, the
challenges, the winds and whatlife is really like, trading the
African sun for Nordic winters.
We'll talk about why he left,what he's learned and whether
Biltong can survive the Swedishwinter.
Let's get into it.
Hey, roy, how are you doing?
I'm well, thank you.
Good man, roy, just give us alittle bit of insight where you
(01:10):
were born.
And, yeah, just tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm a banana boy, originally born in Durban and
grew up in Port Shepston so fromthe coast.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
really, jesus, that's a big change from the coastal
heat, and now you're in Sweden.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's a massive change , I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, what inspired the move to Sweden?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Actually my wife is Swedish.
We met in France actually I'vebeen abroad before and then went
back to South Africa and thenback again.
I left South Africa in 1987,actually and went to the UK and
then, after five years, decidedto go and give it another go.
(01:52):
And then, while I was in the UK, I traveled to France.
I'm a boat builder originally,so I was in a marina in France
actually, and I met my now wife.
So we've known each other since1991.
And then we reconnected after24 years actually of not seeing
each other, and we got marriednine years ago.
(02:13):
So that's the reason for themove back to Sweden.
Okay, that must have been quitea culture shock going to Sweden,
it's vastly different to SouthAfrica, of course, not only
weather-wise but the entireculture.
You know Swedish people arevery stoic.
They're very I can almost sayregimented.
You know they're verylaw-abiding citizens.
(02:35):
You know they do their best notto offend people.
You know it's very difficult tomake friends.
I mean, you know South Africans.
I mean South Africans areincredibly friendly people.
They help, they pitch up evenwith total strangers to help in
any situation.
You can rely on them.
But in Sweden I found it'sexactly the opposite.
(02:57):
People are friendly to you butthere's a limit.
For example, you wouldn't justpitch up at somebody's house on
a on a weekend, even if youconsider them to be a friend.
You definitely would not dothat, whereas in South Africa
you could easily go knock onsomebody's door and say okay,
you know, are we brine today orwhatever?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
But it's a, it's a, nevermind the weather.
That's one thing, but the theculture is completely different.
It really was a bit of a shock,actually.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I've also heard that you've got to speak the language
to be able to get into thecountry.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
No, not Sweden.
Most Swedish people canactually speak English, so
that's not really an issue.
You get some that actuallywon't speak English, but mostly
people are actually veryfriendly and absolutely speak
English.
But mostly people are actuallyvery friendly and absolutely
speak English, so you can get bywithout having to speak Swedish
(03:50):
.
But you know, in order to workefficiently and to be accepted,
you really do need to be able tospeak Swedish.
And you know, I've been doingthe Swedish for immigrants
course for the last year or sonow, so it's getting there and
is the language quite difficultto learn.
Yes, you know there are manywords in Swedish that are
(04:14):
actually the same as Afrikaans.
Okay, but the structure of thesentence is completely backwards
in terms of English.
You know it's not the same atall.
So it's actually a verydifficult language to learn, you
know, especially when youalready speak three or four
languages and then have to learnanother one.
It's you know it can be quitetricky actually.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, I think South Africans are quite.
I mean, we pick up languagespretty quickly, I think, because
of our background and stuff.
I just want to go back a littlebit and talk about your visa.
What was the process like?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Because I know you got dual citizenship, right,
yeah, but you know, my dad wasborn in the UK, so I qualified
for a British passport and, ofcourse, when I came here in 2015
, the UK was still part of theEU, so you had relative freedom
of movement.
You had absolute freedom ofmovement, actually, so I could
(05:15):
come to Sweden and live inSweden without a problem at all,
without any visa, on thestrength of a British passport.
But subsequent to the Brexitarrangement, which came into
effect in December 2020,everything changed, so it's been
a bit of an uphill battle eversince then.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So what visa are you on now?
Are you on a spouse visa?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
No, I'm not on a visa .
I came here because of theBritish passport, which I was
allowed to do and live in Swedenand work in Sweden because it
was part of the EU at the timegeneral from the UK to formalize
their stay in whichever countrythey're living in through
(06:07):
application of, you know, forresidence permits and that sort
of thing which I didn't knowabout, right?
You know I registered witheverybody legally in Sweden, so,
you know, I assumed thatactually I was completely legal
in Sweden, right, until we triedto travel in 2021.
We went to Croatia, we wentsailing and got stopped at the
(06:30):
airport and told that I wasillegally in Sweden.
Oh lovely, it's been a bit of a.
It's been a four-year battlenow actually.
But your wife is Swedish, right, you said my wife is Swedish.
It counts for absolutelynothing.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Okay, because I know, like a lot of countries, if you
marry a citizen, that usuallyqualifies you to stay.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
It is like that in most other countries, but Sweden
has actually played hardball,particularly with British
citizens.
Right, there have been manythat have been forced to leave
Sweden actually.
Okay, it's a bit of a storybehind that, so it's an ongoing
battle actually, because theBritish government has now
(07:14):
decided to get involved.
You know, the Brexit agreementactually allows for people that
live in any country in the EU tocontinue living in that country
until such time as they qualifyfor permanent residence of that
country, but Sweden doesn'trecognize that, so they're not
following the Brexit agreementactually.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, so they sound quite bitter with the whole
Brexit thing.
Yeah, brexit really threw astone in the works, sure.
So how are you navigatingthrough that?
Then I mean, do you see a lightat the end of the tunnel, or is
it quite a massive challenge?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It's a bit tricky right now.
We're a bit stuck between arock and a hard place of whether
we actually move out.
You know, if we move back tothe UK, for example, or back to
South Africa or wherever we cando that, for I think three
months is the minimum minimumand then my wife has the right
to return with the spouse.
Okay, if she lives outside ofthe EU for a period of time, I
(08:11):
think it's three months, so wecould do that.
But you know you have to giveup your job and you know you
have a home and you have a carand you have animals, and you
know it's real disruption.
What are you doing for work?
It's real disruption.
What are you doing for work Atthe moment?
Well, actually for the last nineyears I run a factory that
(08:31):
builds exhibition stands for afew key clients Volvo Defense,
volvo Bus, volvo Truck, volvoConstruction Equipment and a few
others IFA electrical.
We did Port of Gothenburg.
You know we travel around theworld actually building
(08:52):
exhibition stands.
We build a stand and dismantleand box it and then ship it to
different locations around theworld and then build the stand,
you know, over like a week'speriod or 10 days, depending on
how big the stand is and thendismantle after the show and
bring it all back.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Okay, that sounds quite interesting.
And this whole citizenshipprocess has that impacted your
work at all, or is it justbusiness as usual?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It has in a way, because you, you know, the
problem is people have beenarrested coming back into sweden
after being abroad because ofthis brexit thing.
So I've been pretty lucky thatI've.
You know, if you have anapplication on the system,
there's there's a loophole.
So I have, I've hadapplications on the system for
permanent residence and forpermission to join spouse and
(09:46):
what different differentapplications that I've had in
work permits and things likethat.
Yeah, which sort of stops thebus a little bit, but it's still
nerve-wracking, you know,because it depends who you get
as a the customs official.
Yeah, you know they, you couldget a nasty one that says no, no
, no, you can't be here, youhave to go back to the UK.
I mean, I've got nothing in theUK, there's nothing for me
(10:06):
there.
I would be landing with nothingultimately and have to find a
place to stay and no job andwhatever.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I mean, obviously you've thought about this, but
is it not easier on the SouthAfrican passport?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
What to Sweden?
Yeah, no, it's not Okay First.
No, it's not Okay.
First of all, you have to havea visa, which you know.
The thing is, you can't applyfor anything from inside Sweden.
You have to be outside ofSweden to apply for anything.
The saving grace for me hasbeen the fact that I've been
able to apply from inside Swedenon the Brexit arrangement,
right, but even that's runningout as an option now, so it's
(10:43):
becoming more and more trickyactually, as we're getting along
.
But anyway, we have, we havecontingency plans.
You know it's uh, we never giveup, as you know.
Yeah, and how old are you?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
uh 62.
Okay, so it's a bit of acurveball late in life, right
you are very much so.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
That's, that's part of the problem.
Luckily, you know, I'm fit andstrong and healthy, so it's uh,
you know there's yeah, that'snot an issue.
I'd pick up the cudgel whereverI go.
I don't care.
I, you know, I've alwaysmanaged to pick it up and keep
going everywhere that I've beenin and I've been around all over
the world actually yeah, andthat's, that's a south african
coming out.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Huh, we uh yeah resilient.
Tell me, uh, talking about allthat, um, what's your take on
the swedish approach to thingslike health care and education
and that type of thing?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
As I said before, it's a very regulated country
and you know they have systemsin place that actually are
really to be proud of.
The healthcare system you know,comparatively is actually very
good and of course it's totallyfree for for citizens.
But of course you, you know youpay for it ultimately in
(11:46):
taxation.
But pretty much health care isfree.
Dentistry is not that you payfor, but the universities are
and schools are absolutely free.
So everything you need forschool and everything you need
for university is is on theplates.
You can, you can and everythingyou need for university is on
the plate.
You can do whatever you want,study as long as you want, and
(12:10):
go to any university you want,study any course that you want,
and it's completely free.
I mean, you know their tax rateis about the same as South
Africa actually, comparatively.
You know you've got your 25%pay as you earn sort of thing on
your salary and then of courseyour VAT rate is like anywhere
(12:32):
from 15% to 25% depending onwhat you're buying.
So you know you end up payingabout the same as what we paid
in South Africa for tax, butyour taxes get actually very
well utilized.
So you know that's thedifference and you know I'm not
knocking that, I mean it is whatit is.
(12:53):
I mean South Africa is itdoesn't have the amount of
taxpayers and you know they'vegot social responsibility,
things to pay for aboveeverything else.
So you know it's a differentparadigm.
Basically, you know in Swedenthey've got more taxpayers and
you know, of course, a biggerpot to deal out and not that
(13:13):
many population.
I mean there's only 10 millionpeople there.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I guess you just want to see that your tax money is
going somewhere, that's all.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, that's the main thing is that you know you can
be sure that, you know they'vegot social responsibility,
things on every aspect of life,you know, from from a child
right through the range untilyou retire.
You know, and they they try tomaintain that people live in
their own home as long as theypossibly can, as opposed to, you
(13:40):
know, ending up in a in an oldage home.
Of course they do have old agehomes, but mostly that's for
people that are, you know,either just don't have the means
to have a home or can't lookafter themselves.
But I mean my mother-in-law,for example.
I mean, at 81 years old shelived alone in her own apartment
and she had an assistant thatused to pop around and make sure
(14:01):
everything's okay.
And of course my wife used topop around and make sure
everything's okay and of coursemy wife used to go around all
the time and make sure that shehad everything she needed and
take her shopping if she neededto or whatever.
But you know they try tomaintain the independence of the
individual right through life.
So it's really from that aspect, you know it's an amazing place
.
Actually.
It's Scandinavia all over, it'snot just Sweden, it's actually
(14:25):
the whole of Scandinavia is likethat.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And is it quite expensive there, like the cost
of living compared to othercountries?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's relative.
You know the food has got a bitmore expensive now the last few
years but I think that's howeverywhere that's happened like
that.
But it's pretty relative.
I think you know the salariesare pretty good.
The average salaries aregenerally quite good, even a
truck driver, for example.
They're really well paid, evenbus drivers, pretty much any
(14:56):
aspect of working life.
The salaries are comparable.
It is pretty relative.
It can be a bit expensive, butit's the salaries make up for it
, I think.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And what's the best part about living in Sweden?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
The contrast.
You know, and that's somethingthat you don't see so much in
South Africa.
You know first of all, I haveto say, my wife of course, but
besides that, you know theweather contrast is just amazing
.
You know you go through theseasons In South Africa, living
in Durban.
You know you don't really seethe season so much.
You know the grass is prettymuch always green.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
And the weather doesn't change so much.
You get a bit more rain insummer than you do in winter up
to, in summertime, 34, 35degrees.
You know we've had snow half ameter thick.
(15:58):
You know we had to plow ourroad.
We live in the forest actually.
That's the blessing really ofwhere we live and how we live.
We live three kilometers offthe road, on a dirt road, in the
forest, absolutely in theforest, at the end of the road.
So I mean there's nobody afterus.
You know we have our ownprivate lake which is a
10-minute walk away, two lakesactually.
(16:18):
And you know we've got dogs andwe walk in the forest and it's
just incredible.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
It really is Sounds like a slice of heaven, to be
honest, they do, so what do youmiss about South Africa?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You know I'm a sailor I've been sailing all my life
and uh, and a fisherman.
You know, I grew up on thesouth coast.
In fact, we ran a chartercompany in Port Shepston,
shelley Beach.
I took out, over a period of 16years, thousands and thousands
of thousands of people.
We took out fishing.
Yeah, so that's, that's a bigthing for me.
I miss the fishing, it's really.
(16:56):
And the weather, of course, youknow, the hot weather is it's
it's hotter for longer in southafrica, of course, than it is
here.
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, youcan have.
We've had, we've had like fourmonths of good weather, you know
.
It's relatively good weather,sort of in summer, but we've
also had two weeks of summer,you know, and then it's cold
again.
It's uh, it's relatively goodweather, sort of in summer, but
we've also had two weeks ofsummer, you know, and then it's
cold again.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
It's uh, it's a bit uh tell me what's the food like
over there, because you knowsouth africa's the food is.
You know, comparing to the restof the world, I still think is
the best.
But what's it like over there?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
yeah, the food is, uh is also a bit of a culture
shock really.
I mean it's.
You know you can't get aburrovoz roll, you can't get a
bunny chow, yeah, yeah, we haveto make it.
I make my own biltong.
Now there's a South Africanshop, actually not so far away
(17:49):
from us, and they import thingslike Mrs Ball's chutney and
marmat and you know a fewdifferent things that we know
Eat some more.
For example, you know that kindof thing that's from South
Africa, provitas, that kind ofthing, yeah, and they also make.
They make bourrevoirs andbiltong.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So one of the guys actually that works at a sausage
factory here.
We met him at a camp.
You know we have a.
We have a South African campevery year in Sweden.
There are about 11 or 12,000South Africans in in Sweden.
That that's on the system.
You know there's a Facebookgroup with South Africans living
in Sweden.
(18:30):
Yeah, anyway, we met this guythat works at the sausage
factory here and he makes thebiltong privately, biltong and
boulevards and sells privately,mostly to South Africans
actually.
Yeah, so we get that kind ofthing and, as I say, I make my
own biltong as well and, ofcourse, you know food is
available whatever you want.
So you can make whatever youwant.
(18:52):
I mean, I make South Africanfood.
You know the bubutis andcottage pie and good old lamb
curry and stuff like that.
I'm a good cook, so I do itmyself anyway.
So I don't miss from that pointof view.
I can cook and I cook the waywe always cooked.
So, yeah, the food is good andit good and it's and it's
(19:13):
plentiful and it's fresh.
So there's no real problemthere.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
A lot of it's important, of course.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like the South African
shops are making absolutefortune everywhere.
They, they, they're justpopping up everywhere and they
of the.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You know the number of people that are that buy from
them.
You know it's a concentratedgroup of South Africans that
miss home and just want to.
You know we've got such adifferent cultural group here.
As I say, we have a camp everyyear.
It's like a weekend camp indifferent locations in the
country.
That's organized by a verywonderful woman from Cape Town.
(19:52):
She's a school teacher herehere and she does the organizing
, so she just puts it up onFacebook.
Okay, we've got a camp comingup, you know wherever this
year's one is in the first ofAugust for the weekend.
Yeah, and we all travel and westay in a camp somewhere for the
weekend and we just gettogether and we just party for
the weekend.
It's quite amazing actually.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So I take it you keep in contact with a lot of the
South Africans in that group.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, it's quite a community.
You know people help each otheras well.
You know if there's somebody inneed, they always can post it
on the group and somebody willpop up and help.
So you know that's a bit of asaving grace, you know,
especially for newbies that comehere.
You know there's a lot ofstudents that come as well and
(20:44):
come and study here, okay, andvery often they need help and
they put it on the group and youknow people get together and
they help wherever they can.
It's amazing actually.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's what we kind of do.
Hey, yeah.
What advice would you give toSouth Africans looking to move
to Sweden?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Sweden is really.
It's a tough place to actually.
You know, if you have a nicheoccupation then it can be okay
in terms of acceptance andrealizing opportunity in Sweden,
but it's a really tough placeactually to move from South
(21:29):
Africa to Sweden without anybackup at all is actually very
tough from South Africa toSweden without any backup at all
is actually very tough, so youknow if anybody that does want
to move from anywhere SouthAfrican that wants to move to
Sweden.
You know you have to do a lot ofbackground checking.
Yeah, you know a lot isdetermined also where you're
(21:51):
going to stay, because I mean,it's such a huge country, it's
huge.
I say huge, it's long.
You, because I mean it's such ahuge country, it's huge, I say
huge, it's long.
You know, and you've got oneextreme to the other, you know
if you've got to head down southin Malmo, from there all the
way up to the Arctic Circle,basically, and you know you've
got civilization to basic life,where you know survival is a
(22:15):
real struggle.
So, as I say, it depends whatyour niche is, so you can adapt,
of course.
But a lot of background checkingto key down what you actually
want to achieve by moving toSweden, because that's the
ultimate thing.
What are you trying to achieveby moving to Sweden?
Because that's the ultimatething, yeah, yeah.
What are you trying to achieveby moving to a foreign country?
(22:37):
And you know, the further northyou go, the less and less
likely you are to find somebodythat actually speaks Swedish to
you.
Sorry, that speaks English.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Do your homework.
I would say that's probably thekey.
Do your homework.
What do you want to do?
Where do your homework?
I would say that's probably thekey.
Do your homework.
What do you want to do?
Where do you want to go?
You know what are you trying toachieve and what resources do
you have, because you know itcan be without an income.
(22:59):
It can be incredibly expensiveactually to to move here and see
if you can make it, for example.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It's uh, that's, it's going to be tough yeah, okay,
um, I have one final questionfor you.
Um, yeah, is the grass greeneron the other side?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yes and no.
You know, it depends really howyou land.
If you land on your feet, itcan be, and if you have backup
it can be.
But you know you have to acceptthat there are going to be
things you're going to miss.
There's no question about that,especially as a South African.
(23:38):
There are things you're goingto miss.
So my key to that is actuallyyou have to go in committed 100%
, because otherwise it can endup a very sorrowful experience
if you're not absolutelycommitted to move and adapt.
(23:58):
Because that's the bottom line,I would say the grass can be
greener on the other side aslong as you're prepared to
actually knuckle down and dowhat's required to make it
greener.
Grass is greener where youwater it.
Basically.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Also.
Sometimes there's that Also.
Sometimes there's more shit onthe grass.
Eh, yeah, there is.
Buy some chickens, yeah, Now,Roy.
Thanks a lot for sharing yourstory, man, it's been awesome.
I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, for the record, I was involved in preparing the
boat and the sailor, jeffHilton Barber, is quite
relatively unknown actually, butthe first blind man to sail
from Durban in South Africa toFremantle in Australia,
absolutely alone.
Wow, look him up and you'll see, you'll read about it.
(24:51):
My name's listed there as oneof the people that helped.
It was a team of us.
Of course I wasn't alone, but Irefitted his boat and prepared
him and sail trained with himand then sent him off from
Durban and then I flew over toAustralia and got on the boat
and sailed in with him the lastseveral miles, several hundred
miles actually, back in throughthe shipping lanes into
Australia.
But that's my claim to fameanyway.
(25:12):
Wow, that's amazing.
My wife's saying goodbye aswell.
Okay, bye.
We should have had her on.
Yes, she's right here.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Hi, hi, Hi.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
No, I'm just fine, are you?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I'm very, very well, yeah, good, I'm interested to
hear some Swedish.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Okay, hurraår du idag .
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sounds a lot like that, eh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
How are you today?
Hur mår du idag?
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Hur mår du idag?
How are you doing today?
Hur mår du idag?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So if we talk Afrikaans to you, are you able
to understand it?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Ja, because it's like a thing, similar things.
It's like like like näsa, arm,hand, mull öra, it's like hand
and ear.
When Roy was speaking Afrikaansto a friend in South Africa, I
just nodded Like yeah, yeah, doyou understand?
(26:11):
Yeah, it's like Swedish.
Oh, wow, that's like Swedish.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Oh, wow, that's very interesting.
Yeah, thanks, thanks again, andwe look forward to an update.
If you're eager to explore morestories of South Africans
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(26:34):
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Roy, thanks again for joiningus.
It's been awesome having you onand to all our listeners, check
you tuesday and if you lovewhat we're doing here and want
to support our show, head overto saabroadpodcastcom that's
(26:57):
saabroadpodcastcom and become asponsor so we can keep sharing
these amazing stories.
Welcome back to South Africans Abroad, a show for
expat South Africans and anyoneinterested in the experiences of
those who have made the moveoverseas.
Each episode we'll hear fromSouth Africans who have left the
country to pursue newopportunities, be with loved
ones or simply follow theirdreams.
We'll explore the challengesand triumphs of life as an expat
and the unique perspective thatcomes with being a South
(00:24):
African abroad, of life as anexpat and the unique perspective
that comes with being a SouthAfrican abroad.
I'm your host, warren Burley,an expat South African who, like
many, followed the dream ofworking overseas.
Whether you're an expatyourself or just curious about
the expat experience, join us aswe delve into the motivations,
struggles and joys of being aSouth African living overseas.
Today we've got a fascinatingguest, roy Bowden.
Roy made his move from SouthAfrica to Sweden and we're going
(00:47):
to get into all of that theculture, the shocks, the
challenges, the winds and whatlife is really like, trading the
African sun for Nordic winters.
We'll talk about why he left,what he's learned and whether
Biltong can survive the Swedishwinter.
Let's get into it.
Hey, roy, how are you doing?
I'm well, thank you.
Good man, roy, just give us alittle bit of insight where you
(01:10):
were born.
And, yeah, just tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm a banana boy, originally born in Durban and
grew up in Port Shepston so fromthe coast.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
really, jesus, that's a big change from the coastal
heat, and now you're in Sweden.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's a massive change , I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, what inspired the move to Sweden?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Actually my wife is Swedish.
We met in France actually I'vebeen abroad before and then went
back to South Africa and thenback again.
I left South Africa in 1987,actually and went to the UK and
then, after five years, decidedto go and give it another go.
(01:52):
And then, while I was in the UK, I traveled to France.
I'm a boat builder originally,so I was in a marina in France
actually, and I met my now wife.
So we've known each other since1991.
And then we reconnected after24 years actually of not seeing
each other, and we got marriednine years ago.
(02:13):
So that's the reason for themove back to Sweden.
Okay, that must have been quitea culture shock going to Sweden,
it's vastly different to SouthAfrica, of course, not only
weather-wise but the entireculture.
You know Swedish people arevery stoic.
They're very I can almost sayregimented.
You know they're verylaw-abiding citizens.
(02:35):
You know they do their best notto offend people.
You know it's very difficult tomake friends.
I mean, you know South Africans.
I mean South Africans areincredibly friendly people.
They help, they pitch up evenwith total strangers to help in
any situation.
You can rely on them.
But in Sweden I found it'sexactly the opposite.
(02:57):
People are friendly to you butthere's a limit.
For example, you wouldn't justpitch up at somebody's house on
a on a weekend, even if youconsider them to be a friend.
You definitely would not dothat, whereas in South Africa
you could easily go knock onsomebody's door and say okay,
you know, are we brine today orwhatever?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
But it's a, it's a, nevermind the weather.
That's one thing, but the theculture is completely different.
It really was a bit of a shock,actually.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I've also heard that you've got to speak the language
to be able to get into thecountry.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
No, not Sweden.
Most Swedish people canactually speak English, so
that's not really an issue.
You get some that actuallywon't speak English, but mostly
people are actually veryfriendly and absolutely speak
English.
But mostly people are actuallyvery friendly and absolutely
speak English, so you can get bywithout having to speak Swedish
(03:50):
.
But you know, in order to workefficiently and to be accepted,
you really do need to be able tospeak Swedish.
And you know, I've been doingthe Swedish for immigrants
course for the last year or sonow, so it's getting there and
is the language quite difficultto learn.
Yes, you know there are manywords in Swedish that are
(04:14):
actually the same as Afrikaans.
Okay, but the structure of thesentence is completely backwards
in terms of English.
You know it's not the same atall.
So it's actually a verydifficult language to learn, you
know, especially when youalready speak three or four
languages and then have to learnanother one.
It's you know it can be quitetricky actually.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, I think South Africans are quite.
I mean, we pick up languagespretty quickly, I think, because
of our background and stuff.
I just want to go back a littlebit and talk about your visa.
What was the process like?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Because I know you got dual citizenship, right,
yeah, but you know, my dad wasborn in the UK, so I qualified
for a British passport and, ofcourse, when I came here in 2015
, the UK was still part of theEU, so you had relative freedom
of movement.
You had absolute freedom ofmovement, actually, so I could
(05:15):
come to Sweden and live inSweden without a problem at all,
without any visa, on thestrength of a British passport.
But subsequent to the Brexitarrangement, which came into
effect in December 2020,everything changed, so it's been
a bit of an uphill battle eversince then.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So what visa are you on now?
Are you on a spouse visa?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
No, I'm not on a visa .
I came here because of theBritish passport, which I was
allowed to do and live in Swedenand work in Sweden because it
was part of the EU at the timegeneral from the UK to formalize
their stay in whichever countrythey're living in through
(06:07):
application of, you know, forresidence permits and that sort
of thing which I didn't knowabout, right?
You know I registered witheverybody legally in Sweden, so,
you know, I assumed thatactually I was completely legal
in Sweden, right, until we triedto travel in 2021.
We went to Croatia, we wentsailing and got stopped at the
(06:30):
airport and told that I wasillegally in Sweden.
Oh lovely, it's been a bit of a.
It's been a four-year battlenow actually.
But your wife is Swedish, right, you said my wife is Swedish.
It counts for absolutelynothing.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Okay, because I know, like a lot of countries, if you
marry a citizen, that usuallyqualifies you to stay.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
It is like that in most other countries, but Sweden
has actually played hardball,particularly with British
citizens.
Right, there have been manythat have been forced to leave
Sweden actually.
Okay, it's a bit of a storybehind that, so it's an ongoing
battle actually, because theBritish government has now
(07:14):
decided to get involved.
You know, the Brexit agreementactually allows for people that
live in any country in the EU tocontinue living in that country
until such time as they qualifyfor permanent residence of that
country, but Sweden doesn'trecognize that, so they're not
following the Brexit agreementactually.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, so they sound quite bitter with the whole
Brexit thing.
Yeah, brexit really threw astone in the works, sure.
So how are you navigatingthrough that?
Then I mean, do you see a lightat the end of the tunnel, or is
it quite a massive challenge?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It's a bit tricky right now.
We're a bit stuck between arock and a hard place of whether
we actually move out.
You know, if we move back tothe UK, for example, or back to
South Africa or wherever we cando that, for I think three
months is the minimum minimumand then my wife has the right
to return with the spouse.
Okay, if she lives outside ofthe EU for a period of time, I
(08:11):
think it's three months, so wecould do that.
But you know you have to giveup your job and you know you
have a home and you have a carand you have animals, and you
know it's real disruption.
What are you doing for work?
It's real disruption.
What are you doing for work Atthe moment?
Well, actually for the last nineyears I run a factory that
(08:31):
builds exhibition stands for afew key clients Volvo Defense,
volvo Bus, volvo Truck, volvoConstruction Equipment and a few
others IFA electrical.
We did Port of Gothenburg.
You know we travel around theworld actually building
(08:52):
exhibition stands.
We build a stand and dismantleand box it and then ship it to
different locations around theworld and then build the stand,
you know, over like a week'speriod or 10 days, depending on
how big the stand is and thendismantle after the show and
bring it all back.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Okay, that sounds quite interesting.
And this whole citizenshipprocess has that impacted your
work at all, or is it justbusiness as usual?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It has in a way, because you, you know, the
problem is people have beenarrested coming back into sweden
after being abroad because ofthis brexit thing.
So I've been pretty lucky thatI've.
You know, if you have anapplication on the system,
there's there's a loophole.
So I have, I've hadapplications on the system for
permanent residence and forpermission to join spouse and
(09:46):
what different differentapplications that I've had in
work permits and things likethat.
Yeah, which sort of stops thebus a little bit, but it's still
nerve-wracking, you know,because it depends who you get
as a the customs official.
Yeah, you know they, you couldget a nasty one that says no, no
, no, you can't be here, youhave to go back to the UK.
I mean, I've got nothing in theUK, there's nothing for me
(10:06):
there.
I would be landing with nothingultimately and have to find a
place to stay and no job andwhatever.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I mean, obviously you've thought about this, but
is it not easier on the SouthAfrican passport?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
What to Sweden?
Yeah, no, it's not Okay First.
No, it's not Okay.
First of all, you have to havea visa, which you know.
The thing is, you can't applyfor anything from inside Sweden.
You have to be outside ofSweden to apply for anything.
The saving grace for me hasbeen the fact that I've been
able to apply from inside Swedenon the Brexit arrangement,
right, but even that's runningout as an option now, so it's
(10:43):
becoming more and more trickyactually, as we're getting along
.
But anyway, we have, we havecontingency plans.
You know it's uh, we never giveup, as you know.
Yeah, and how old are you?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
uh 62.
Okay, so it's a bit of acurveball late in life, right
you are very much so.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
That's, that's part of the problem.
Luckily, you know, I'm fit andstrong and healthy, so it's uh,
you know there's yeah, that'snot an issue.
I'd pick up the cudgel whereverI go.
I don't care.
I, you know, I've alwaysmanaged to pick it up and keep
going everywhere that I've beenin and I've been around all over
the world actually yeah, andthat's, that's a south african
coming out.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Huh, we uh yeah resilient.
Tell me, uh, talking about allthat, um, what's your take on
the swedish approach to thingslike health care and education
and that type of thing?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
As I said before, it's a very regulated country
and you know they have systemsin place that actually are
really to be proud of.
The healthcare system you know,comparatively is actually very
good and of course it's totallyfree for for citizens.
But of course you, you know youpay for it ultimately in
(11:46):
taxation.
But pretty much health care isfree.
Dentistry is not that you payfor, but the universities are
and schools are absolutely free.
So everything you need forschool and everything you need
for university is is on theplates.
You can, you can and everythingyou need for university is on
the plate.
You can do whatever you want,study as long as you want, and
(12:10):
go to any university you want,study any course that you want,
and it's completely free.
I mean, you know their tax rateis about the same as South
Africa actually, comparatively.
You know you've got your 25%pay as you earn sort of thing on
your salary and then of courseyour VAT rate is like anywhere
(12:32):
from 15% to 25% depending onwhat you're buying.
So you know you end up payingabout the same as what we paid
in South Africa for tax, butyour taxes get actually very
well utilized.
So you know that's thedifference and you know I'm not
knocking that, I mean it is whatit is.
(12:53):
I mean South Africa is itdoesn't have the amount of
taxpayers and you know they'vegot social responsibility,
things to pay for aboveeverything else.
So you know it's a differentparadigm.
Basically, you know in Swedenthey've got more taxpayers and
you know, of course, a biggerpot to deal out and not that
(13:13):
many population.
I mean there's only 10 millionpeople there.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I guess you just want to see that your tax money is
going somewhere, that's all.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, that's the main thing is that you know you can
be sure that, you know they'vegot social responsibility,
things on every aspect of life,you know, from from a child
right through the range untilyou retire.
You know, and they they try tomaintain that people live in
their own home as long as theypossibly can, as opposed to, you
(13:40):
know, ending up in a in an oldage home.
Of course they do have old agehomes, but mostly that's for
people that are, you know,either just don't have the means
to have a home or can't lookafter themselves.
But I mean my mother-in-law,for example.
I mean, at 81 years old shelived alone in her own apartment
and she had an assistant thatused to pop around and make sure
(14:01):
everything's okay.
And of course my wife used topop around and make sure
everything's okay and of coursemy wife used to go around all
the time and make sure that shehad everything she needed and
take her shopping if she neededto or whatever.
But you know they try tomaintain the independence of the
individual right through life.
So it's really from that aspect, you know it's an amazing place
.
Actually.
It's Scandinavia all over, it'snot just Sweden, it's actually
(14:25):
the whole of Scandinavia is likethat.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And is it quite expensive there, like the cost
of living compared to othercountries?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's relative.
You know the food has got a bitmore expensive now the last few
years but I think that's howeverywhere that's happened like
that.
But it's pretty relative.
I think you know the salariesare pretty good.
The average salaries aregenerally quite good, even a
truck driver, for example.
They're really well paid, evenbus drivers, pretty much any
(14:56):
aspect of working life.
The salaries are comparable.
It is pretty relative.
It can be a bit expensive, butit's the salaries make up for it
, I think.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And what's the best part about living in Sweden?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
The contrast.
You know, and that's somethingthat you don't see so much in
South Africa.
You know first of all, I haveto say, my wife of course, but
besides that, you know theweather contrast is just amazing
.
You know you go through theseasons In South Africa, living
in Durban.
You know you don't really seethe season so much.
You know the grass is prettymuch always green.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
And the weather doesn't change so much.
You get a bit more rain insummer than you do in winter up
to, in summertime, 34, 35degrees.
You know we've had snow half ameter thick.
(15:58):
You know we had to plow ourroad.
We live in the forest actually.
That's the blessing really ofwhere we live and how we live.
We live three kilometers offthe road, on a dirt road, in the
forest, absolutely in theforest, at the end of the road.
So I mean there's nobody afterus.
You know we have our ownprivate lake which is a
10-minute walk away, two lakesactually.
(16:18):
And you know we've got dogs andwe walk in the forest and it's
just incredible.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
It really is Sounds like a slice of heaven, to be
honest, they do, so what do youmiss about South Africa?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You know I'm a sailor I've been sailing all my life
and uh, and a fisherman.
You know, I grew up on thesouth coast.
In fact, we ran a chartercompany in Port Shepston,
shelley Beach.
I took out, over a period of 16years, thousands and thousands
of thousands of people.
We took out fishing.
Yeah, so that's, that's a bigthing for me.
I miss the fishing, it's really.
(16:56):
And the weather, of course, youknow, the hot weather is it's
it's hotter for longer in southafrica, of course, than it is
here.
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, youcan have.
We've had, we've had like fourmonths of good weather, you know
.
It's relatively good weather,sort of in summer, but we've
also had two weeks of summer,you know, and then it's cold
again.
It's uh, it's relatively goodweather, sort of in summer, but
we've also had two weeks ofsummer, you know, and then it's
cold again.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
It's uh, it's a bit uh tell me what's the food like
over there, because you knowsouth africa's the food is.
You know, comparing to the restof the world, I still think is
the best.
But what's it like over there?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
yeah, the food is, uh is also a bit of a culture
shock really.
I mean it's.
You know you can't get aburrovoz roll, you can't get a
bunny chow, yeah, yeah, we haveto make it.
I make my own biltong.
Now there's a South Africanshop, actually not so far away
(17:49):
from us, and they import thingslike Mrs Ball's chutney and
marmat and you know a fewdifferent things that we know
Eat some more.
For example, you know that kindof thing that's from South
Africa, provitas, that kind ofthing, yeah, and they also make.
They make bourrevoirs andbiltong.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So one of the guys actually that works at a sausage
factory here.
We met him at a camp.
You know we have a.
We have a South African campevery year in Sweden.
There are about 11 or 12,000South Africans in in Sweden.
That that's on the system.
You know there's a Facebookgroup with South Africans living
in Sweden.
(18:30):
Yeah, anyway, we met this guythat works at the sausage
factory here and he makes thebiltong privately, biltong and
boulevards and sells privately,mostly to South Africans
actually.
Yeah, so we get that kind ofthing and, as I say, I make my
own biltong as well and, ofcourse, you know food is
available whatever you want.
So you can make whatever youwant.
(18:52):
I mean, I make South Africanfood.
You know the bubutis andcottage pie and good old lamb
curry and stuff like that.
I'm a good cook, so I do itmyself anyway.
So I don't miss from that pointof view.
I can cook and I cook the waywe always cooked.
So, yeah, the food is good andit good and it's and it's
(19:13):
plentiful and it's fresh.
So there's no real problemthere.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
A lot of it's important, of course.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like the South African
shops are making absolutefortune everywhere.
They, they, they're justpopping up everywhere and they
of the.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You know the number of people that are that buy from
them.
You know it's a concentratedgroup of South Africans that
miss home and just want to.
You know we've got such adifferent cultural group here.
As I say, we have a camp everyyear.
It's like a weekend camp indifferent locations in the
country.
That's organized by a verywonderful woman from Cape Town.
(19:52):
She's a school teacher herehere and she does the organizing
, so she just puts it up onFacebook.
Okay, we've got a camp comingup, you know wherever this
year's one is in the first ofAugust for the weekend.
Yeah, and we all travel and westay in a camp somewhere for the
weekend and we just gettogether and we just party for
the weekend.
It's quite amazing actually.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So I take it you keep in contact with a lot of the
South Africans in that group.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, it's quite a community.
You know people help each otheras well.
You know if there's somebody inneed, they always can post it
on the group and somebody willpop up and help.
So you know that's a bit of asaving grace, you know,
especially for newbies that comehere.
You know there's a lot ofstudents that come as well and
(20:44):
come and study here, okay, andvery often they need help and
they put it on the group and youknow people get together and
they help wherever they can.
It's amazing actually.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's what we kind of do.
Hey, yeah.
What advice would you give toSouth Africans looking to move
to Sweden?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Sweden is really.
It's a tough place to actually.
You know, if you have a nicheoccupation then it can be okay
in terms of acceptance andrealizing opportunity in Sweden,
but it's a really tough placeactually to move from South
(21:29):
Africa to Sweden without anybackup at all is actually very
tough from South Africa toSweden without any backup at all
is actually very tough, so youknow if anybody that does want
to move from anywhere SouthAfrican that wants to move to
Sweden.
You know you have to do a lot ofbackground checking.
Yeah, you know a lot isdetermined also where you're
(21:51):
going to stay, because I mean,it's such a huge country, it's
huge.
I say huge, it's long.
You, because I mean it's such ahuge country, it's huge, I say
huge, it's long.
You know, and you've got oneextreme to the other, you know
if you've got to head down southin Malmo, from there all the
way up to the Arctic Circle,basically, and you know you've
got civilization to basic life,where you know survival is a
(22:15):
real struggle.
So, as I say, it depends whatyour niche is, so you can adapt,
of course.
But a lot of background checkingto key down what you actually
want to achieve by moving toSweden, because that's the
ultimate thing.
What are you trying to achieveby moving to Sweden?
Because that's the ultimatething, yeah, yeah.
What are you trying to achieveby moving to a foreign country?
(22:37):
And you know, the further northyou go, the less and less
likely you are to find somebodythat actually speaks Swedish to
you.
Sorry, that speaks English.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Do your homework.
I would say that's probably thekey.
Do your homework.
What do you want to do?
Where do your homework?
I would say that's probably thekey.
Do your homework.
What do you want to do?
Where do you want to go?
You know what are you trying toachieve and what resources do
you have, because you know itcan be without an income.
(22:59):
It can be incredibly expensiveactually to to move here and see
if you can make it, for example.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It's uh, that's, it's going to be tough yeah, okay,
um, I have one final questionfor you.
Um, yeah, is the grass greeneron the other side?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yes and no.
You know, it depends really howyou land.
If you land on your feet, itcan be, and if you have backup
it can be.
But you know you have to acceptthat there are going to be
things you're going to miss.
There's no question about that,especially as a South African.
(23:38):
There are things you're goingto miss.
So my key to that is actuallyyou have to go in committed 100%
, because otherwise it can endup a very sorrowful experience
if you're not absolutelycommitted to move and adapt.
(23:58):
Because that's the bottom line,I would say the grass can be
greener on the other side aslong as you're prepared to
actually knuckle down and dowhat's required to make it
greener.
Grass is greener where youwater it.
Basically.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Also.
Sometimes there's that Also.
Sometimes there's more shit onthe grass.
Eh, yeah, there is.
Buy some chickens, yeah, Now,Roy.
Thanks a lot for sharing yourstory, man, it's been awesome.
I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, for the record, I was involved in preparing the
boat and the sailor, jeffHilton Barber, is quite
relatively unknown actually, butthe first blind man to sail
from Durban in South Africa toFremantle in Australia,
absolutely alone.
Wow, look him up and you'll see, you'll read about it.
(24:51):
My name's listed there as oneof the people that helped.
It was a team of us.
Of course I wasn't alone, but Irefitted his boat and prepared
him and sail trained with himand then sent him off from
Durban and then I flew over toAustralia and got on the boat
and sailed in with him the lastseveral miles, several hundred
miles actually, back in throughthe shipping lanes into
Australia.
But that's my claim to fameanyway.
(25:12):
Wow, that's amazing.
My wife's saying goodbye aswell.
Okay, bye.
We should have had her on.
Yes, she's right here.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Hi, hi, Hi.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
No, I'm just fine, are you?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I'm very, very well, yeah, good, I'm interested to
hear some Swedish.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Okay, hurraår du idag .
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sounds a lot like that, eh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
How are you today?
Hur mår du idag?
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Hur mår du idag?
How are you doing today?
Hur mår du idag?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So if we talk Afrikaans to you, are you able
to understand it?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Ja, because it's like a thing, similar things.
It's like like like näsa, arm,hand, mull öra, it's like hand
and ear.
When Roy was speaking Afrikaansto a friend in South Africa, I
just nodded Like yeah, yeah, doyou understand?
(26:11):
Yeah, it's like Swedish.
Oh, wow, that's like Swedish.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Oh, wow, that's very interesting.
Yeah, thanks, thanks again, andwe look forward to an update.
If you're eager to explore morestories of South Africans
abroad, be sure to hit thatsubscribe button so you never
miss a moment For exclusiveupdates, discussions and a
chance to connect with fellowlisteners.
Be sure to join our vibrantcommunity on Facebook.
Just search discussions and achance to connect with fellow
(26:34):
listeners.
Be sure to join our vibrantcommunity on facebook.
Just search for south africansabroad podcast and become part
of the conversation there.
You'll find additional content,behind the scenes insights and
an easy way to access all yourfavorite episodes.
Roy, thanks again for joiningus.
It's been awesome having you onand to all our listeners, check
you tuesday and if you lovewhat we're doing here and want
to support our show, head overto saabroadpodcastcom that's
(26:57):
saabroadpodcastcom and become asponsor so we can keep sharing
these amazing stories.
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