We share transformative insights on leveraging your network for career growth. Our guests Susan Hailey (CHRO @ Enable), Shannon Lundgren (Founder & CEO @Shannon's Circle) and Jean Kovacs ( share how to navigate personal branding effectively and develop meaningful connections that elevate your career potential.
• Networking should focus on building relationships, not just asking for favors
• Strategies to engage your network authentically without asking for jobs
• The distinction between mentorship and sponsorship, emphasizing sponsorship importance
• Tactics for making positive first impressions during networking events
• The importance of giving more than you take in networking
Discover the transformative power of networking in our engaging episode, where we explore innovative strategies for career advancement. Join us as we dive into enriching discussions with leading professionals who share their invaluable insights on how to leverage connections to unlock potential and growth. Our guests tackle common misconceptions about networking, explaining how to engage authentically with your network, and why mentoring and sponsorship are crucial for success, especially for women.
Unpack the key tactics to stand out in competitive job markets, including how to make memorable first impressions without resorting to rehearsed pitches. Also, expect tips on navigating both in-person and online networking effectively. By the end of this episode, you'll gain a fresh perspective on your networking approach, creating lasting relationships designed for success.
Ready to elevate your career? Tune in, and if you resonate with our insights, please subscribe, share, and leave a review to help others find their way to their own career transformations!
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Rajiv Parikh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajivparikh/
Sandeep Parikh: https://www.instagram.com/sandeepparikh/
Susan Hailey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susanlyonhailey/
Susan Hailey is the Chief Human Resource Officer at Enable. With over 20 years of experience as a senior HR and talent executive, Susan has a proven track record of leading all aspects of human capital and talent for high-growth organizations. Before joining Enable, Susan was the Vice President of Global Talent Acquisition at OpenText, where her leadership earned the company recognition as one of Forbes’ Best Places to Work in 2022.
Jean Kovacs: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jean-kovacs/
Jean Kovacs is a Partner at Hillsven Venture Capital, a seed venture capital fund focused on the enterprise B2B space. Jean is also the Co-President of the HBS Alumni Angels Association of Northern California and her resume includes serving as CEO and Co-Founder of Comergent Technologies, and Co-Founder and EVP of Qualix Group. Jean was named to the Silicon Valley/San Francisco Business Journal’s list of Most Influential Women in Business.
Shannon Lundgren : https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonlundgren/
Shannon Lundgren is the Founder & CEO of Shannon's Circle Matchmaking. Shannon pivoted from a successful corporate career, including a 16-year tenure at Wells Far
Website: https://www.position2.com/podcast/
Rajiv Parikh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajivparikh/
Sandeep Parikh: https://www.instagram.com/sandeepparikh/
Email us with any feedback for the show: spark
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the Spark of Ages podcast.
We have a special roundtablediscussion today, and this time
we're going to talk aboutnavigating your career journey
with the help of othersEssentially leveraging your
network to climb to the nextrung of your ladder and how
doing so may allow you to unlockyour potential.
And we have really awesomeguests today.
They're really good friends ofmine.
(00:26):
We're going to make it like oneof our board meetings.
So I have Susan Haley, who isthe Chief Human Resource Officer
at Enable.
She has over 20 yearsexperience as a senior HR and
talent executive.
Susan has a proven track recordof leading all aspects of human
capital and talent for highgrowth organizations.
Before joining Enable, susanwas the vice president of global
(00:48):
talent acquisition at OpenText,where her leadership earned the
company recognition as one ofthe Forbes best places to work
in 2022.
Hi, susan.
Hi.
We have Gene Kovach.
Gene Kovach is a partner atHills Bend Venture Capital, a
seed venture capital firmfocused on the enterprise B2B
space.
Jean is also the co-presidentof the HBS Alumni Association of
(01:09):
Northern California and herresume includes CEO and
co-founder of CommergentTechnologies, which she sold to
AT&T.
Yes, that's right, that's right.
And she's a co-founder and EVPof the Qualics Group.
Jean was named the SiliconValley San Francisco Business
Journal's list of mostinfluential women in business.
(01:29):
And finally we have ShannonLundgren, who is the founder and
CEO of Shannon's CircleMatchmaking.
Shannon pivoted from asuccessful corporate career,
including a 16-year tenure atWells Fargo where she oversaw
the digital experience forWellsFargocom.
She left to pursue her passionfor matchmaking.
Shannon is a well-recognizedexpert on modern love making
(01:51):
connections, and marriages amongthe intellectually curious
Apparently resulted in many,many children being born.
So welcome Shannon, susan, jeanAll three of you are fellow MBA
(02:15):
graduates of the HarvardBusiness School.
Susan is the chair of theNorthern California HBS Alumni
Club and both she and Gene areon the Global Alumni Club, so I
have a very strong group.
And really what motivated me tohave this today was I went to a
session where they were talkingabout the strategy and science
(02:35):
of influence.
That was a recent event that wehad with Alison Fregat and
Heidi Rosen, and I was, like youknow.
I have folks that I know thatare just rock stars at building
career and can give us so muchadvice.
And I was like you know.
I have folks that I know thatare just rock stars at building
career and can give us so muchadvice, and so that's why I
thought we'd have you here.
So one of the key takeaways Ithink you can get from this
episode is that we'll talk aboutinnovative strategies and
networking as a form of personaldevelopment, how to engage your
(02:56):
network in alternative ways tounlock career opportunities, how
to make memorable and positiveimpact on recruiters and hiring
managers through networking andtactics women can utilize as
they break into leadershippositions.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
So thank you and welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
It's great to be here .
All right, there's so muchgoing on in the world right now.
There's so much going on withtechnology as well as how to
build up who you are and whereyou're going, so I'll just jump
right to a few topics.
So let's talk about networking.
Many feel uncomfortable askingtheir network for help.
What are some alternative waysto engage your network without
explicitly asking for a job orfavor, and still unlock career
(03:33):
opportunities?
So, susan, you want to start?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Sure, yeah thanks, it's only your world.
Yeah, Thank you, Arziv, Iappreciate it.
Oh yeah, this is a greatquestion and it's a really good
topic and I think to feel reallycomfortable, I think asking
your network for help is to bethe person who has been giving a
lot of help along the way.
I also think it's reallyimportant to never keep score.
(03:55):
Always make sure you're givingmore than you're getting.
That way, when you are in asituation where you're looking
for something, it really neverfeels like uncomfortable because
you know your bucket side isfull because you've been doing
this along the way.
It also puts you in a positionof being someone that people
come to for advice and helps youincrease all the pluses in your
(04:18):
column, so to speak.
But don't keep track, becausethe minute you start keeping
track it kind of messes up thewhole karma of getting things
from your network, so to speak.
So I think you know, keep yournetwork really close by and
always be doing things to enrichother people in your network.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Other thoughts.
Susan, I love your answer aboutthe more you do to help others,
the more it's all going to evenout and come back, and I also
think there are ways to ask forhelp and ways not I mean looking
at a person who might be in aposition to help you and
figuring out if what you want isgoing to benefit that person as
(04:55):
well, and never feeling thatyou're owed anything, because
none of us, no matter how muchwe've done, we're not owed
anything.
It's just what can we all do toelevate ourselves and our teams
and the people in our own bits?
Speaker 4 (05:10):
I'd build on that and add that people want to be
helpful, they want to be asked,and so sometimes we get really
focused on ourselves and feelingbad about asking someone, but
we're arguably depriving them ofan opportunity to feel good and
to have a psychic reward ofgiving back.
So we think about them.
(05:30):
Think about also, when you doask them, how can you help them
in offering that?
And I'd also say, give them ahook.
I'm oftentimes asked just forgeneral help.
I'm interested in a role inmarketing or product management
and.
I need a little bit more to helpthem, such as oh, I see you're
connected to Jane Doe at suchand such company.
(05:51):
Can you provide an introbecause I'm looking to break
into that company?
Or do you know anyone at thiscompany?
That helps me a little bit.
Versus oh, I'm just in my jobsearch.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, If somebody just comes up to you out of the
blue and says, yeah, I need ajob, can you help me?
You're like ah.
You got to give me somethingright.
You have to give me somethingto work with.
I like your point.
You know the point aboutkeeping score right.
It's hard to go in literallylike write down and think about
how you're going to help everysingle person.
It can be really painful.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I'd also add there's people that are connectors and
there's people that aren't intheir factory settings, and so
know that some people, evenclosest friends I would actually
make sure you go outside yourclose friend network and weak
ties are great, but remember noteveryone is going to have that
(06:37):
factory setting of connectionand some will have it full tilt
and those are the people thatare going to be the best
connectors.
So just really know that andit's okay if some people don't
do anything and nothing happens,they're probably not a
connector type.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Well, I like that point.
Yeah, there's some people whojust live for that.
I think all of you are sort oflike that, right, shannon?
Isn't that who you are?
You're like the super connector.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
All of us are.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I don't think of myself as the connector, but I
do passionately believe that themore we can help others,
especially other women or peopleentering a workforce, the more
it elevates all of us.
And if that means connecting orwhatever we can do, Okay, so
let me do this.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So what was that?
This came out of MalcolmGladwell right, there's the
connector, the maven, the seller, salesperson right, I think
there was three.
And he described the PaulRevere thing and why Paul Revere
was more successful than theother guy that was riding the
horse right, Because Revere wasthe ultimate connector.
So where would you putyourselves?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Okay, which Malcolm Gladwell book would you start?
Oh, now you're quizzing me onthe book, but I'm not sure that
I.
Okay, so I remember this wasthe one I thinking me on the
book.
I'm kind of sure, but I'm notsure that I'm.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Okay, so I remember.
This was the one I think we'reall the best.
This was the one I think aboutthe 10,000 hours right, oh, yeah
, yeah it was outliers.
So if you put 10,000 hours intosomething, you're like the
expert.
And I think he went into thiswhole notion of well, there's
three types of people and ofwell, there's three types of
people, and of course heovergeneralizes.
So there's the connector typeand Shannon kind of triggered
(08:06):
this, triggered the thought,like there's the person that is
a connector or super connectorand that's what they thrive on.
And then there's a type ofperson you bump into that is the
maven.
They're an expert in aparticular field and that's what
they thrive on.
I thought it was kind of weirdthat he had the notion of a
salesperson, the one that justlikes to promote something.
If you were to take yourself,what would you consider
(08:28):
yourselves If you were to pickonly one?
For me, a connector.
Shannon's a connector.
She does this as a business.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So for me, I think I'd have to say a salesperson.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was going to guess the maven yeah, I'm a maven, I'm
a maven.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Ah, you have to know everything about your field Is
that what it is.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I like being deep in a thing that I'm interested in.
Expert.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
And I like being more of a generalist.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Interesting, so now you have one of each of us.
I know.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
And what are you?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Rajiv.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, how are you Rajiv?
Yeah, I would say I started mycareer as a salesperson.
I always wanted to be a maven,but I'd say I'm more of a
connector and I enjoy it.
I enjoy every part of it.
My greatest thrill is inconnecting people together.
I think I get the biggestthrill when people I put
together actually do somethingtogether.
That's great.
I got another question.
This is, many view networkingas a means to an end focusing on
(09:25):
their immediate career gainsand I think, Susan, you kind of
touched on this how canprofessionals shift that
personality to be networking, ifyou will, I mean we have people
(09:46):
that are more introverted,people that are more extroverted
.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I tend to see the more extroverted people enjoying
getting to know new people andadding them to their network, if
you will.
I think that might be a littlebit more challenging for
introverted people, not always,I mean, those are huge
generalizations anyway, but Ithink for the usage of a network
I mean the way you quote Ithink that's the question that
you asked, rajiv yeah, how doyou?
(10:09):
kind of incorporate that, how doyou use it and how do you build
it?
You know, I think you reallyshould be focused on doing
things that you like and thingsthat you know are in an area
that you're interested in.
So for me, one of the reasons Ilove the Harvard Network is
because I like business, I likecommercial discussions, I like
learning about industries, Ilike learning about new
(10:32):
technologies.
So for me, networking is aboutmeeting people who are in the
middle of those things, and atany level too.
I mean, they don't have to bean expert for me to be
interested in getting to knowthem.
I can just be.
You know, I met somebody at anevent the other night and she
started her career in thevirtual reality space and
obviously that kind of went itsown way and probably you'll find
(10:53):
a new life in a different form,but it was kind of really
interesting to me.
You know that that's how shestarted her career.
And then again, for mepersonally, I just am interested
in people's stories.
I find that interesting.
For me it's just really genuineand I tend to really like
building relationships withpeople, getting to know them
better.
It's pretty natural for me todo what I do on the network side
(11:15):
.
It turns out it's been reallygood professionally for me
because of the sector that I'vefocused on.
It really helps.
I was on a call today and we'redoing a reference on a candidate
.
You know, I know the head of HRat the company from before and
you know that wasn't the thingthat anybody thought might be a
possibility.
So just it shows up in waysthat can be incredibly helpful.
(11:37):
But I'm also the kind of personthat loves to get things done.
I think that's the maven partof me where the networking is
almost a means to the end togetting things done.
I happen to like it, but in andof itself, if it doesn't get an
outcome like if somebodydoesn't get a job that I
connected them to or not thatI'm unhappy about that, but I'm
always like so what's the endgame?
Where does the value getcreated in making that
(11:59):
connection?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think one of the reasons for the question is that
sometimes you only hear fromfolks when they're looking for
something or looking for a job.
Right, I've had CMOs variousCMOs call me and the only time
they call me is when they'relooking for a consulting work,
and I know what they're about.
They're not there tonecessarily talk to me.
They're there because I can putthem into something.
When I think about the notionof networking, it's like this is
(12:23):
part of living.
I think this is part of likeyou want to have a relationship
with someone before you needthem.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah, I think of it as like a garden You're planting
seeds and some are going tosprout, some aren't going to
sprout, and you nurture it overtime and they always the famous
quote your network is your networth.
But I also think it's somethingthat you're not attached to,
meaning that it is differentwhen you go into a networking
(12:50):
event and we've all been thereat a conference and people are
coming at you trying to sell youor get you to buy something and
that feels really that's wherenetworking gets a bad rap.
Right, it's when we're notattached, when we're wanting
something and it's graspy energy.
And so back to kind of whereyou're mentioning personal
development.
Dig into that and I have had towork on that really hard
(13:11):
because I've learned sales as afunction of my entrepreneurial
career and I'm really focused onnot being attached to the
results and making sure that myactivities.
There's a halo effect.
I know it's.
I know great things are goingto happen, but it's not as if it
has to happen with you or hasto happen with this, and I think
that's detachment to a resultis key.
(13:34):
So that's where, as Susan wasmentioning, you want to build it
in advance so you're notattached to a specific outcome
with a certain individual on thespot, but you've created this
garden and multiple people youcan choose from.
I always think about it thatway.
It's like there's not just oneperson that can help you,
there's many.
And how do you get that help?
(13:56):
And not single thread it withjust attachment to one outcome.
So that was something else.
Part about introverts is reallyhuge, single threaded with just,
you know, attachment to oneoutcome.
So that was something else.
And the part about introvertsis really huge.
I do encounter that in my work,especially as relates to dating
, and I think for introvertsthey do like smaller groups.
So instead of going into thatbig mammoth, you know event with
lots of people that probablySusan, Jean and I or GVU be
(14:19):
comfortable with, you, go tosomething smaller and that'll be
much more comfortable andprobably people with the same
type of expertise that you canreally click with.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I'd like to add to that.
You know that the termnetworking can mean so many
things to so many people,ranging from the huge cocktail
party type thing where you go toand we all have been to those
and we've all ended up talkingto two people because you
couldn't break away.
And you know so, as I wasthinking back on my career, some
(14:47):
of the things that reallyhelped me not just smaller
networking groups, but gettinginvolved in things that I was
passionate in.
For example, you know, when Iwas doing Commergent, that was a
lot of work, but I said tomyself I'm going to serve on one
nonprofit board that I'mpassionate about.
And when I think back to theother people who were on that
board you know, founder ofTwitter, you know we were all
(15:11):
sort of just figuring it out,but we were all passionate about
this area and they got to seeme work and got to know me and I
got to see them work and wehave a relationship.
So networking doesn'tnecessarily mean you have to go
out and, you know, go tococktail parties.
It could even be.
I mean, when I first moved toSilicon Valley, I worked for Sun
(15:34):
Microsystems, like that was.
Most people don't even know whothey are now, sadly, you would
not believe how many Sun alumnithat are out doing fantastic
things in all different areas.
That, because you know I waswell respected there and I
worked hard and other, you knowyou get to know people and so
(15:55):
there's all these networks that,if you sit back and think about
it, it's not just, oh, let's goto the global networking night
and have a cocktail, it's whatare you doing, every aspect of
your job and your career andeven things that augment your
job, like nonprofits.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I love that because it's really talking about how
people get to know you right.
It's one thing when you meetsomeone in the two second or 10
second, you have 30 seconds tomake an impression and it's
another when they're actuallyworking with you on a project.
So, jean, I mean you do thiswith founders, right?
You try to figure out how itworks for a founder, how should
they play it, or how have youseen it played best?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You know it's really tough as a founder.
It's always hard because whenyou're starting, you really feel
every minute that you're notspending.
Focusing on your objectives ofgrowing the company and building
a team is a minute not wellspent.
And that's why I think, sort ofsliding things in under the
guise like some of the bestpeople that I know now are
(16:51):
people that I interviewed thatweren't right for one of my
companies that I've just stayedin touch with.
You know we hooked up onLinkedIn.
And next thing, you know, youknow they're contacting me or
you know.
So I think, just being awareyou know you know they're
contacting me or you know.
So I think, just being awareyou know.
And again, going back to Susan'sthing, not people that you
think, oh, they're going to beable to help me at some point in
(17:11):
time, just because they're goodpeople.
And you know the next thing youknow I had a case where someone
then became a very seniorperson at Google, which was
someone who I trusted and gotneat that I'd never worked with.
So I do think, being open underthe guise of continuing,
because you know you have VCswho are constantly looking how's
it going?
How's it going?
How's it going.
(17:32):
They don't want to hear that.
Oh yeah, I had a founder whojoined a bus full of people to
go drive to a prison and helpthe prisoners for two days and I
was like, wow, that'sinteresting.
And it turned out, it wasfantastic for him and he made
some really good contacts.
But so you know, there's alwaysthat fun line.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
So if you're a founder and you have, like you
said, you have limited time, youhave to nail so many things,
how do you build it so that,when you do contact the VCs,
they know something about you?
Because you tend to invest inthe person that you trust the
most right, because you'reinvesting in teams, you're a
person that can run a great team.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
So I think that is absolutely critical.
And you hear these things wherepeople go and they'll do like a
coffee.
You know they'll get togetherwith a bunch of VCs and reach
out and VCs, you know they'llspend time.
I mean, but there's only youonly have five days a week that
you can have coffee.
Maybe you have seven, but youknow there's only so much that
you can do.
So I do think again, constantlythinking about what is that
(18:33):
person doing?
One of our initial investmentsI put her name into another VC
was looking for women CEOs for apanel and she got her name as a
panelist and became part of theefforts here and then ended up
raising money from the venturecapitalists, like two years
later.
So you know, being open toopportunities like that is also
(18:56):
a very good thing.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Shannon, I have one for you.
In the context of matchmaking,doing a do-over can rescue a
poorly executed first date.
How can professionals apply thedo-over concept to men damaged
or underutilized networkingrelationships?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So the do-overs, this is fun.
This happens, you know, peoplego on a first date and, for
whatever reason, they don'tclick and the other person
really regrets, like, oh, Ireally should have shown some
more enthusiasm and they want toa month later come back.
And this has happened where,you know, even past clients have
gone back to first dates thatI've set them up with and said I
(19:32):
really would like to do anotherfirst date again In the realm
of networking.
I don't think it has to be thatformal, because but I think,
knowing that sometimes we rejectourselves before we, you know
people don't think that hardabout what might've get muffed
up unless it was very serious.
So I always take the you know,assume best intent, reach out to
(19:52):
that person, follow up.
Guess what?
Most people are busy and Ifound you know, follow up,
follow up.
Follow up is kind of like sokey just doesn't mean nagging,
but just it's not just a one anddone.
If someone hasn't responded ina week, you just bump it up and
say, oh, just looping back onthis one's a good time to
connect for you and making iteasy for them.
(20:13):
So I think, having thatconfidence that it's not blown
if a bridge is really burned,you know, of course, then you
know it's serious and you don'tgo back to that.
But I do think that peopleregenerate and good faith, and
if you've got a really goodreputation, I think people are
always open to reconnecting andstarting anew.
So I think, less focus on thepast, more focus on the future
(20:37):
and also, once again, if you'realways coming to them for your
needs, then it's probably notgoing to be well received.
But how do you kind of, youknow, breathe that in advance at
goodwill Any?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
other thoughts on a do-over, how you decided to do
over Susan Jean, or you've seenit done.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
You're talking about in a business context, not a
dating concept, yeah, I have.
I mean, I think in the businesscase it's just being open and
honest.
You know, I'm really sorry.
My parents were in the hospitaland I just I didn't have my
head on straight that day andyou know I'd love to continue
the conversation.
And if the person says no, thenthat's, you know, like take
(21:16):
that and move on.
That will send better signalsand stronger signals than if you
, you know, bake right.
But life happens to all of us,and especially in technology.
You know, when you're not 8 to5, you're 7 to 24, you know life
is going to interfere every nowand then and if something
(21:37):
happens people are often waymore able to deal with it.
I mean, I just this week had aCEO who had food poisoning and
you know, texted everyone and weended up having the meeting,
the Zoom, two days later and youknow we spent five minutes.
Everyone had to say when theyhad food poisoning.
But you know there was a littlebit of bonding and she felt
better, and you know, and we allmoved on.
(22:00):
So don't shy away from beinghuman.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Yeah, this happened to me the other night.
It was at a networking event,not food poisoning.
No, not the food poisoning, butthe faux pas.
You know, it's one of thosesituations where you're meeting
all these people, you hear theperson's name in a loud room and
it honestly went in one ear outthe other, and then someone
else comes up and I need tointroduce him to her in one ear
out the other.
(22:23):
And then someone else comes upand I need to introduce him to
her and I didn't know his nameand you know I knew that didn't
fare well.
What I did afterwards is, Imade sure, connecting with him
on LinkedIn and just said, oh,it's so great to meet, you Use
his name and all that.
It's just also being consciousof how you might have a faux pas
.
You don't have to underscore it, but try to reach out and
reconnect versus view it as ablown opportunity.
(22:45):
Exactly that's cool, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
All right, susan, I got a question for you.
Sure, given that firstimpressions are critical, what
unconventional approaches canjob seekers use to make
memorable and a positive impacton recruiters and hiring
managers beyond the standardelevator?
Speaker 3 (23:03):
pitch.
You know this is where thepower of a network is so
important, because you know acold outreach, you know, is
typically not going to get anyattention.
You know, it's just that's kindof human nature, at least for
me.
And I think where I am muchmore inclined in fact I am 100%
inclined to helping someone Idon't know is if they've been
(23:25):
introduced by someone in mynetwork, no matter how you know
close gets you the job, but it'sthe person you know whose
brother's, sister-in-law's,cousin happens to have an
(23:47):
opportunity and you don't knowthat person from Adam but your
network person is introducingyou to that opportunity.
So that's sort of the theory ofweak ties or weak ties.
So I think it is always betterto have an introduction if you
don't know somebody, and thenit's sort of on you at a
networking event or in whateveractivity you're doing, to build
(24:09):
your network with people thatare in areas that might have
interest for you or do haveinterest for you and again, not
being so calculated about it,because everybody can sense
calculated networking and itjust feels inauthentic and it
doesn't feel very comfortable.
So I think you know, and Ialways advise people you know,
(24:30):
especially young people you knowto you know here.
I'll connect with you onLinkedIn.
Is there anyone anywhere in mynetwork that you somehow know?
Because that way, and if it'sin an area that you're
interested in, you know, I'llintroduce you to anybody.
I don't even need to know themthat well, but I'd be happy to
do that.
And to your point, shannon,about not being too worried
about the outcome of it, I thinkyeah.
(24:54):
So I think that it is actuallysomething.
It's just people are too busy,especially in the worlds that we
live in, to respond to peoplethey literally don't know.
I mean just, you know, and Iget it all the time, as you can
imagine, with the work that I do, and I used to and I mean years
ago, when I wasn't at thislevel or what have you I did
spend some time on it, but itgenerally didn't go well.
(25:16):
You know what I mean.
It's like the person was kindof like why?
And I would look back on my owninvestment of time and go why
did I do that, like you know.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
so there is something about those, you know, warm
introductions and they don'teven have to be super warm, but
just slightly warm.
That, I think, are more theones that are going to get
responded to and make aconnection.
You know, and with that firstmeeting was you talking about
making a connection or making animpression?
Go with the moment, like, youknow, if you're late because
(25:47):
there's a huge traffic accident,apologize, but you know talk or
the weather's horrible Talk,you know, and the next time you
reach out to that person you cansay I was the person that came
in, my umbrella had, you know,broken.
Or I had a guy in France wholived on the same, his street
name was the same as mine andlike 20 years later he reached
(26:08):
out and he said this is Pascal,I live on, you know, and I
immediately remember, justbecause we'd had like a few
minutes, a few discussion, alittle discussion of something
different.
So don't feel you have to comeinto that first meeting and you
have an agenda like letdiscussion of something
different.
So don't feel you have to comeinto that first meeting and you
have an agenda Like let go ofthe flow just a little bit and
be comfortable in yourself.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yeah, I like what you're saying about being
comfortable in yourself, becauseit's ultimately when it really
gets muffed up is when we getself-conscious and we're in our
own head.
It's like how do you start tothink about and I loved what
susan said earlier about beingcurious about them is like think
about them and get out of yourown mind so that you're focused
(26:49):
on really connecting and seeingthat person and being authentic.
That energy is going to showthrough, versus something that
where you're just trying to saythe right things, the same old
how are you doing, you know,where do you, where do you work,
and all that stuff.
So something that really feelslike the energy is exciting or
vital or real.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, I think it always helps to come in with
something.
There's a hook, it's genuine,it feels like today and they'll
always remember you and youalways.
When you meet someone for thefirst time or you meet them out
of context and you look cluelesswhen you first meet them, you
need that hook to get back inwith someone, right?
So it's a, it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It works really well, and you know, rashid, you can't
plan that hook Like, you can'tsay like it has to be the thing
that happened.
It has to be improv, right,absolutely, it has to be improv.
Yeah, I heard Stanford's nowteaching an improv in business
class and I think we probablyall had to do that on our own,
(27:48):
but it's a fascinating concept.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I did that actually.
We had this in a CEO group.
We had an improv comedian comein.
Actually, my co-host for thisis an improv comedian, sandeep,
and it's really just talking.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's the yes and thing.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
So right.
It's when improv is all aboutwhen you walk in the room and
someone says somethingridiculous and you got to go
with it.
You can't criticize it, Right?
So you just have to.
You have to build on it, andthat's the fun, right?
If somebody says somethingridiculous, well, you say
something that builds on theridiculousness.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's right, and that's what we're waiting for in
this podcast, rajiv.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
We're getting there, here we go.
Expectations are high.
Jean, by the way, who, when sheran the HBS Alumni Club events,
raised the most money out ofanyone in history, is now making
our podcast stand out.
So okay, here we go.
Spark of Ages opinions aboutcareer development and
(28:42):
networking tactics in 2025.
So here we go.
Spark of Ages Opinions AboutCareer Development and
Networking Tactics in 2025.
So here we go.
Instead of asking you questions, I'm going to make a statement
and you're just going to agree,disagree or give me one line.
So here we go.
Networking events are acolossal waste of time.
They're filled with peopletrying to sell themselves, not
genuinely connect.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Oh, can we do this?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
No, you got to go.
I disagree.
Shannon disagrees, I disagreetoo.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Oh, okay.
Well, I'm going to likesometimes agree because they can
be.
I mean, if you have a lot ofwork to do, to go to an event
that has a ton of people, maybeI'm the introvert, you guys,
she's an introvert.
Oh my God, no, no, I don't know, but I'm going to agree with
that.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Okay, maybe not as strongly, but I think it's
really hard to go an eventthat's just about networking,
yeah, but I go anyways.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
All right next one.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Next one Online networking is essential, but it
can't replace the value ofin-person connections.
Building trust and rapportrequires face-to-face
interaction, especially forsenior level roles.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I agree, I disagree.
Disagree I disagree too.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, I disagree.
You don't need to be.
You don't need face-to-faceinteraction.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I would have had a different answer six years ago,
but post-pandemic.
I think I've been able toreally leverage connection and I
have created babies with peopleI haven't even met.
How many babies Shannon.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
This past year.
Do you have the baby-o-meter?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
I definitely have had a lot of babies this past 12
months, so I definitely havecounted four.
But yeah, so I think I wouldhave had a different answer in
the past.
I do think you can build trustdigitally.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Without.
Okay.
And why would you have said,why have things changed?
Oh, just the advent.
I mean not just COVID, but theadvent.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Yeah, just the advent of Zoom and all the other ways
to connect I think has reallymade it much more able to look
at someone's.
I do think face-to-face doesmake you know is huge and you
still can read a lot of signalsand a lot of things by someone's
face and create that connectioneven though you're not there
physically with them.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
All right.
So, jean, have you fundedsomeone just off of Zoom.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
No, but I know VCs who have and have been
incredibly successful.
Typically, that's in a casewhere there might be other
investors who have, so you hearthose stories all the time.
But honestly, it's almost morework to maintain an online
presence.
I look at young people juststarting their careers now and I
think the amount of time theyhave to spend to just create and
(31:21):
maintain their online presenceis astronomical.
So I do think that takes a lotof work, but still, to me,
there's something about shakingsomeone's hand and sitting down
for a cup of coffee.
All right, susan, what do?
Speaker 3 (31:33):
you got?
Oh, I mean, I've hired so manyC-level executives without
having ever met them in person.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Without having meeting them With huge, but you
got opinions from other people.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
The person that you were hiring.
So you're hiring a CXO for aCEO.
Has the CEO met the CXO thatyou're hiring Well?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
during COVID.
no, you know so that's where itall started.
I wouldn't have ever thoughtlike Shannon, I would never have
thought that that would bepossible before COVID, but when
it became a necessity, you know,we through an online or a, you
know, zoom type connection, butI don't know.
(32:27):
I think we spend a lot of timein these types of settings now,
and I think we also get moreclues than maybe we would have
been attuned to when we're inthese settings that give us a
little more pattern recognitionon whether or not the person
either is worthy of my networkor worthy of a second interview
or whatnot.
So, yeah, I think I mean.
I do agree, though, that thereis nothing better than meeting
somebody in person, and I wouldalso say that, after having done
(32:50):
so much work online in severalcompanies, now it is such a joy
to meet somebody in person thatI've been working with online
for, in some cases, years,literally years, and then I get
to meet them in person that I'vebeen working with online for,
in some cases, years, literallyyears, and then I get to meet
them in person and it's likethey already feel like a really
good colleague or even a friend,but I never would have expected
that, and that's kind of a newthing that we're all kind of
(33:10):
experiencing.
All right, I got a few more.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Mentorship is overrated.
True career advancement comesfrom strategic self-promotion,
not relying on the generosity ofothers.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Disagree.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Why One sentence?
Why?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
The sentence I would add is that you know it takes
two to tango and you're nevergoing to get that opportunity if
there isn't somebody there andnot even helping you.
In fact, I don't love the wordmentor.
To be honest, I'm a much biggerfan of sponsoring.
I think that gets at my get itdone mentality.
Like you know, mentoring is Ican sort of advise or coach or
(33:46):
whatever, and I don't mind, andI don't think any of us mind
doing that.
Where I think it matters issponsoring people, like really
making the connection, saying Iremember there was a leader I
used to work with and, oh mygosh, she was hilarious.
She'd be like okay, here's thedeal, you are now going to go
meet this person and this isthis job, and you know, and it
was really sponsorship, itwasn't well, maybe you could
(34:09):
think about this or maybe it waslike here are all the things
you need to do and yeah, that'swhat I just I think there's a
big difference there and ifyou're just self-promoting
yourself, you know that.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Yeah, I disagree too, because the strategic
self-promotion backfires, that'sjust.
Everyone sees through thatultimately and you can't build
relationships just, you know,thumping your own chest.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Right, so it's mentorship is overrated.
That's what you're just.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That's what we're saying.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah.
So I would disagree with that.
I think mentoring or sponsoringor whatever, just being a
sounding board for someone whomight not have the experience
that you've had that you can betotally open and honest with,
can be hugely helpful for thatperson.
And again, it's you know, themore you elevate the team, the
(34:56):
more you you get elevated.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
And so I like it All right.
Next question the old boys clubis alive and well.
While lip surface is paid toinclusivity, real career
advancement still often dependson who you know within those
circles, not in high tech.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
So I would disagree in high tech Definitely.
Disagree in high techDefinitely.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Disagree in high tech .
Yeah, I disagree with the techbros notion.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, especially in small companies,
which you know.
I mean, I worked AT&T, boughtmy last company and I worked at
AT&T for a year and a half, sothat's a different story.
But in the small companies Ialways felt in Silicon Valley
you could be purple skinned andhave two heads If you could get
the job done.
(35:42):
People were going to respectyou and you know, I do hear
stories where people feel thatthey were discriminated against,
but not as much these days.
I really do feel it's moremerit-based, at least what I'm
experiencing.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
I disagree.
I don't have as much context inJean's world, but I do think
that there is.
I get to see it in my world andI think, unfortunately, there's
a lot of inherent bias that weall have.
We get familiar with who we'refamiliar with and it can be hard
for someone who isn't quoteunquote like us to break in.
(36:17):
Oh, wait.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
So then you're agreeing that it's alive and
well.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Well, what was the statement?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
The old boys club is alive and well.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
Yes, yes, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
All right, I like that diversity of opinion.
Susan, it's alive and well.
It's alive and well.
You work with a lot of big techcompanies.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
It's very alive and very.
I mean and part of it is yousaid it, shannon I mean people
are busy, they think they've gotperfect pattern recognition, so
it's very, and then they andtheir pattern recognition is
limited to what they know andwhat's comfortable.
They don't often have the timeto take to try to develop a new
neural network with somebodythat's different from what they
(36:58):
know.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Okay, so how would you break through?
Give me one tip on how a personwould break through that club.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Well, I think maybe it's a little bit what Jean was
saying.
You find volunteer activitieswhere you get to know these
people and you get in front ofthem, and there is, I mean, I
think it's still mostly an oldboys' network.
I actually think it's worsethan it used to be.
To be honest, I've been in techlonger than probably all of you
, because I'm older than all ofyou, starting at IBM before
(37:28):
there were PCs.
You can't use the age thing.
Come on.
Well, I can, because it wasbetter.
It was really better back thenbecause a lot of the companies
were really putting the effortinto bringing women into the
workforce and African-Americans.
And you know, especially IBMwas amazing at it.
And the longer I've been inthat, the more I mean.
You look at the statistics onventure capital.
(37:49):
I mean what is it?
95% men, white men, like that'sa pretty big old boys network,
or young boys network, as itwere.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So I do think, though , rishi, when you talk about how
do you get around it, if it isprevalent or you're feeling it
as someone trying to break in,focus on the results.
I mean, you know, if you'veconstantly doubled the revenue
goals, or you introduced aproduct in six months that was
originally scheduled, or youbuilt something, hopefully
(38:19):
you'll get some kind ofcredibility based on that.
So if someone is choosingsomeone because of pattern
recognition and you'veoutperformed at least hopefully
there's cognitive memories thatthey're doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I love that.
So focus on something you cando, that you can show an
objective.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, that you've done.
Even if it's your first job outof school, you have track
records of doing something.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Okay, I have one more , and then we're going to go to
the game.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You mean this wasn't the game.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Wait till you see the game.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
The truth in the dare we're going to amp it up with
the game.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
All right, here's the last one.
The best career advice isn'tabout what to do, but how to
think.
Mentors should focus oncultivating critical thinking
and problem-solving skills.
Maybe sponsors should Not justoffering specific instructions.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Totally agree.
Totally agree, agree.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Agree, okay.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
I'd also add to that even not just all of the things
you said, but also mindsetaround knowing you're heading
for a goal.
You absolutely know you'regoing to reach it.
You definitely don't know howyou're going to get there, but
you're clear, you're going toget there.
And training your mind to thinklike an athlete, an Olympic
athlete like you know, this isas good as done and you're, you
know, open to the differentpaths of how to get there, but
(39:38):
that is something I wish I'dlearned 30 years ago.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
What's a technique you use to help you with that?
Do you write it down and thenjust remind yourself every day?
Do you build on it every day?
How do you do it?
Speaker 4 (39:47):
You become aware Well , definitely writing down where
you're going, coming up withyour top three things you want
to achieve in a year big thingsyou want to achieve and then
just remind yourself that'swhere you're going and then, as
you start to encounter obstacles, knowing that that's part of
the path on the way there, andyet you are still heading there.
So that's the part is like mostpeople.
(40:08):
You know we hit an obstacle, wethink of it as like oh, I got
to turn around and go back.
Well, you don't.
You know.
You continue to know thatthat's where you're going and,
yes, you're going to have these.
You know bumps on the road ordetours, but it's just like that
knowledge that that's that'swhere I'm heading, and feeding
yourself those thoughts thatconfirm that.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Thank you, that was fantastic, so I'm going to go to
the game now.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
But Rishiva their prizes.
Where are?
Speaker 4 (40:36):
we going to spin the wheel.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
I'm happy to have a prize for this.
I just thought you're suchcompetitors in general that
winning is everything I know.
Jean, you're definitely intowinning.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
That is the prize.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Okay, welcome to the Spark Tank.
Today, we're thrilled to havethree powerhouse professionals
and leaders ready to ignite ourneural networks and set our
synapses ablaze.
In this episode, we're divinginto the wild and wacky world of
job hunting.
From outrageous resumes tounconventional application
tactics, we'll explore the mostbizarre stories of how people
(41:14):
have tried to land their dreamjobs.
These tales are not justentertaining.
They reveal the lengths towhich candidates will go to
stand out in a competitive jobmarket.
Get ready for a game that'lltest your lie-detecting skills
and challenge your assumptions.
It is time for Two Truths and aTantalizing Lie.
Here's how it works.
I'll read three statements.
Two of these statements areabsolute truths, while one is a
(41:36):
carefully crafted fib.
Your mission, should you chooseto accept it, is to separate
fact from fiction.
You ready?
All right, we have threequestions.
This is round one.
Number one In 2012, alecBrownstein bought Google AdWords
for the names of creativedirectors he admired, so he
created a Google campaign forthem.
(41:57):
When they Googled themselves,they saw his message asking for
a job, which led to interviewsand ultimately landing him a
position at a top advertisingagency.
Number two, in 2013, ryanMcCarthy created a Lego version
of himself and sent it topotential employers, along with
a QR code linking to his onlineportfolio.
(42:18):
Number three in 2014, ninaMuffley created a resume
mimicking Airbnb's websitedesign to apply for a job at the
company.
Her creative approach wentviral on social media and
ultimately led to an interviewwith the Airbnb team.
What I'm going to do is I'mgoing to count to three and then
put up one, two or threefingers, so you can't cheat, and
(42:41):
we'll see who wins.
Ready Three, two, one.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Oh, all different answers oh my goodness, all
different answers.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So Susan's a three, shannon's one, jean is two.
The lie is number two.
There you go, gene in the lead,all right.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
While ryan mccarthy is a real software engineer,
there's no verifiableinformation about him creating
lego version of himself for jobapplications you know, it's just
crazy enough that I thoughtmaybe that is true, but you
never know, you never know, younever know.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I usually lose this game when I play against my
guest.
So here we go.
Number one In 2010, eric Gandhidesigned a resume that looked
like a Google search resultspage, which went viral and
landed him a job at a top adagency.
Number two Lucas Yala dressedas a Postmates delivery person
to hand deliver boxes of donutswith his resume to tech
(43:44):
companies in San Francisco in2016.
Number three in 2018, asoftware engineer created a
chatbot version of himself thatcould answer interview questions
on his behalf.
Ready Three, two, one.
Let's see.
Gene is three, susan is three.
Let's see, jean is three, susanis three and Shannon is two.
(44:04):
The lie is number three.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yes, the question now is the person who delivered
donuts.
Did he get a job?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
So there's no verifiable information about a
software engineer creating aninterview enabling chatbot in
2018.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, that's pretty early, I could see that today?
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, that'd be straightforward.
Eric Gandhi's Google-themedresume this is number one did go
viral in 2010.
It was featured on various techand design blogs and ultimately
led him to be hired by a topadvertising firm Crispin Porter
and Bogusky so that was a bigone.
They're the ones that did getmilk.
The resume cleverly mimickedGoogle search results page with
(44:45):
Gandhi's qualificationspresented as search results.
That's good.
And then number two Lucas donutdelivery stunt.
Well-documented, hehand-delivered 40 boxes of
donuts to tech companies in SanFrancisco, each containing his
resume.
It led him to get over 10interviews and significant media
coverage.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
All right.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So here's number three.
Susan, you have a chance tocatch Gene in this one so either
you're going to tie or Gene isgoing to win.
Yes, and Shannon, you know wejust get one in Number one in
2020, a job seeker created aseries of TikTok videos applying
for jobs at major techcompanies, which led to multiple
(45:23):
interview offers.
Number two in 2013, philipDubost created an Amazon product
page style resume that wentviral, receiving over 100,000
unique visitors and multiple joboffers.
Multiple job offers.
Number three Robert Lenardidesigned an interactive Super
(45:44):
Mario style video game resume in2013, which showcased his
skills and experience as aplayer progressing through
various levels.
Three, two, one.
Oh, look at this.
This is interesting.
So the lie is number one.
Shannon, you get on the board,all right, lie number one while
(46:07):
TikTok has been used for jobsearching, there's no verifiable
information about a specificcase in 2020.
Or, philippe did do the resumecalled Philippe's Amazoning
resume.
It mimicked a product pagecomplete with product details.
Customer reviews and even a buynow button.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
That's fantastic, that's great, and he got job
offers from Amazon and Spotify.
Very clever.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Robbie's interactive resume, the Mario style one,
designed like a side-scrollingvideo game, launched in 2013,
gained attention in design andtech communities.
Users could navigate throughdifferent levels representing
his skills, experience andawards.
The innovative approachshowcased his design skills and
creative thinking and, of course, wide, wide claim recognition
(46:52):
and job opportunities.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
That's great, that was awesome, and so the winner
is je Jean, yay Jean, she's thebest lie detector of our group
today, when you said you weregoing to do this game, I was
really worried.
I thought you were going to dotwo truths and a lie about each
of us Me too, I know.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
That would have been good.
No, all right, we will have totune our AI bot for that, but
thank you, that was awesome.
I'm going to ask each of youone question and just give me
whatever quick pops off the topof your head and if you think
it's controversial, jump in.
But let's do it this way.
So you ready?
Yeah, I'm not doing this basedon anything I know about you.
(47:34):
So, susan, you're an investorlike me.
What's your anti-portfolio?
One company we wish we investedin, hired us, or a company you
founded?
Probably LinkedIn.
Linkedin for joining thecompany or investing in oh for
founding it, founding it.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Did you think of that , of started?
I know I, oh that was just agood one, like really good,
that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Shannon, what is your personal moonshot?
Define it any way you want, butit's something big you really
want to see happen or accomplishwant to see happen or
accomplish.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
Oh, so right now writing my book, you know
underway, but definitely kind ofa hard thing to get done when
you have your day to daybusiness to run.
So that's that's one I, and itreally is to serve and help more
people that I can't helpthrough my own work, but it is
really hard to shift gears andget that accomplished.
So that's the first one thatcomes to mind.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
And what's the book about?
Speaker 4 (48:43):
A book is about helping intellectually curious
singles find love, so how to bethe CEO of their own love life.
That's not the title, but I'vegot to wait till I write it to
figure out the title but reallyshowing them a proactive
approach and what to actually doand what to think and how to
market themselves, as well asfigure out their target market
so they can find their partner.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So find your personal ICP.
All right, jean, do you have afavorite life motto you return
to often and share with friendsin work or life?
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yes, I do, and I'm trying to think I've said this
before which is, and now I can'teven think of it but it's sort
of like enjoy what you do and dowhat you enjoy.
So, whatever you decide to do,find the goodness and the fun in
it, but also, when you'rethinking of that, gravitate
(49:39):
towards things that you know youenjoy, right.
So whatever you're doing, doesthat make sense?
Speaker 1 (49:45):
I love it.
Yes, that's great.
That's great, and is that whatyou've done?
Yeah, do you feel like that'swhere you are?
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Look at like what's happened in my career.
I've never done somethingbecause I thought I should.
I've enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed the people.
I like the marketplace or youknow.
There's something about itthat's going to make it fun for
me.
But even, no matter whatsituation you get in, just find
some beauty in it, find some fun, find it, make it a challenge.
(50:13):
So yeah, it's worked for me.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
That's a great way to end and I won the.
I won the game, yeah whichwhich I don't think I would have
heard the end of it if youdidn't win the game.
So that's the perfect way toend it, because I believe that
my three guests, Susan, Shannonand Jean, all are people who do
(50:36):
what they love and have achievedamazing things because of it
and because you've utilized yourrelationships and being
intentional to get there.
So I really appreciate all ofyou joining me today.
Speaker 4 (50:49):
Thank you, Rishi, Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
Rajiv.
Thank you All right.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Have a great weekend.
That was great to have SusanSharon community with me today.
There's such a fun bunch ofpeople.
(51:15):
As you know, one of the thingsI'm trying to do is bring the
world that I live in here youknow a New Hampshire boy moving
to Silicon Valley to all of you,and what I'm continuously blown
away by, by successful peoplein my life that have built
themselves up and definitely allthree Susan, gene and Shannon
(51:36):
all did that and have gottenthemselves to where they want to
be based on their life'sambition and that's something
that Jean talked about is thatdo what you want to, you know,
do something you love to do.
And Susan talked about whenyou're meeting with people not
keeping score.
And I love the statement byShannon that your network is
(51:56):
your net worth, and these arejust beautiful things that if
you incorporate some of theseand break out of your shell, the
world is open to you, and Ithink it's so important to be
bold like that and just seekyour way forward.
So thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's podcast,please take a moment to rate it
and comment.
You can find us on Apple,spotify, youtube and everywhere
(52:18):
podcasts can be found.
The show is produced by SunniParikh and Anand Shah,
production assistance by TarynTalley, edited by Sean Maher and
Aidan McGarvey.
I'm your host, rajiv Parikh,from Position Squared, an
AI-centric growth marketingcompany based in Silicon Valley.
We know how to grow and scalecompanies really well, so come
visit us at position2.com.
(52:38):
This has been an effing funnyproduction and we'll catch you
next time, and we alwaysremember folks.
Be ever curious.
Hello and welcome to the Spark of Ages podcast.
We have a special roundtablediscussion today, and this time
we're going to talk aboutnavigating your career journey
with the help of othersEssentially leveraging your
network to climb to the nextrung of your ladder and how
doing so may allow you to unlockyour potential.
And we have really awesomeguests today.
They're really good friends ofmine.
(00:26):
We're going to make it like oneof our board meetings.
So I have Susan Haley, who isthe Chief Human Resource Officer
at Enable.
She has over 20 yearsexperience as a senior HR and
talent executive.
Susan has a proven track recordof leading all aspects of human
capital and talent for highgrowth organizations.
Before joining Enable, susanwas the vice president of global
(00:48):
talent acquisition at OpenText,where her leadership earned the
company recognition as one ofthe Forbes best places to work
in 2022.
Hi, susan.
Hi.
We have Gene Kovach.
Gene Kovach is a partner atHills Bend Venture Capital, a
seed venture capital firmfocused on the enterprise B2B
space.
Jean is also the co-presidentof the HBS Alumni Association of
(01:09):
Northern California and herresume includes CEO and
co-founder of CommergentTechnologies, which she sold to
AT&T.
Yes, that's right, that's right.
And she's a co-founder and EVPof the Qualics Group.
Jean was named the SiliconValley San Francisco Business
Journal's list of mostinfluential women in business.
(01:29):
And finally we have ShannonLundgren, who is the founder and
CEO of Shannon's CircleMatchmaking.
Shannon pivoted from asuccessful corporate career,
including a 16-year tenure atWells Fargo where she oversaw
the digital experience forWellsFargocom.
She left to pursue her passionfor matchmaking.
Shannon is a well-recognizedexpert on modern love making
(01:51):
connections, and marriages amongthe intellectually curious
Apparently resulted in many,many children being born.
So welcome Shannon, susan, jeanAll three of you are fellow MBA
(02:15):
graduates of the HarvardBusiness School.
Susan is the chair of theNorthern California HBS Alumni
Club and both she and Gene areon the Global Alumni Club, so I
have a very strong group.
And really what motivated me tohave this today was I went to a
session where they were talkingabout the strategy and science
(02:35):
of influence.
That was a recent event that wehad with Alison Fregat and
Heidi Rosen, and I was, like youknow.
I have folks that I know thatare just rock stars at building
career and can give us so muchadvice.
And I was like you know.
I have folks that I know thatare just rock stars at building
career and can give us so muchadvice, and so that's why I
thought we'd have you here.
So one of the key takeaways Ithink you can get from this
episode is that we'll talk aboutinnovative strategies and
networking as a form of personaldevelopment, how to engage your
(02:56):
network in alternative ways tounlock career opportunities, how
to make memorable and positiveimpact on recruiters and hiring
managers through networking andtactics women can utilize as
they break into leadershippositions.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
So thank you and welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
It's great to be here .
All right, there's so muchgoing on in the world right now.
There's so much going on withtechnology as well as how to
build up who you are and whereyou're going, so I'll just jump
right to a few topics.
So let's talk about networking.
Many feel uncomfortable askingtheir network for help.
What are some alternative waysto engage your network without
explicitly asking for a job orfavor, and still unlock career
(03:33):
opportunities?
So, susan, you want to start?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Sure, yeah thanks, it's only your world.
Yeah, Thank you, Arziv, Iappreciate it.
Oh yeah, this is a greatquestion and it's a really good
topic and I think to feel reallycomfortable, I think asking
your network for help is to bethe person who has been giving a
lot of help along the way.
I also think it's reallyimportant to never keep score.
(03:55):
Always make sure you're givingmore than you're getting.
That way, when you are in asituation where you're looking
for something, it really neverfeels like uncomfortable because
you know your bucket side isfull because you've been doing
this along the way.
It also puts you in a positionof being someone that people
come to for advice and helps youincrease all the pluses in your
(04:18):
column, so to speak.
But don't keep track, becausethe minute you start keeping
track it kind of messes up thewhole karma of getting things
from your network, so to speak.
So I think you know, keep yournetwork really close by and
always be doing things to enrichother people in your network.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Other thoughts.
Susan, I love your answer aboutthe more you do to help others,
the more it's all going to evenout and come back, and I also
think there are ways to ask forhelp and ways not I mean looking
at a person who might be in aposition to help you and
figuring out if what you want isgoing to benefit that person as
(04:55):
well, and never feeling thatyou're owed anything, because
none of us, no matter how muchwe've done, we're not owed
anything.
It's just what can we all do toelevate ourselves and our teams
and the people in our own bits?
Speaker 4 (05:10):
I'd build on that and add that people want to be
helpful, they want to be asked,and so sometimes we get really
focused on ourselves and feelingbad about asking someone, but
we're arguably depriving them ofan opportunity to feel good and
to have a psychic reward ofgiving back.
So we think about them.
(05:30):
Think about also, when you doask them, how can you help them
in offering that?
And I'd also say, give them ahook.
I'm oftentimes asked just forgeneral help.
I'm interested in a role inmarketing or product management
and.
I need a little bit more to helpthem, such as oh, I see you're
connected to Jane Doe at suchand such company.
(05:51):
Can you provide an introbecause I'm looking to break
into that company?
Or do you know anyone at thiscompany?
That helps me a little bit.
Versus oh, I'm just in my jobsearch.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, If somebody just comes up to you out of the
blue and says, yeah, I need ajob, can you help me?
You're like ah.
You got to give me somethingright.
You have to give me somethingto work with.
I like your point.
You know the point aboutkeeping score right.
It's hard to go in literallylike write down and think about
how you're going to help everysingle person.
It can be really painful.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I'd also add there's people that are connectors and
there's people that aren't intheir factory settings, and so
know that some people, evenclosest friends I would actually
make sure you go outside yourclose friend network and weak
ties are great, but remember noteveryone is going to have that
(06:37):
factory setting of connectionand some will have it full tilt
and those are the people thatare going to be the best
connectors.
So just really know that andit's okay if some people don't
do anything and nothing happens,they're probably not a
connector type.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Well, I like that point.
Yeah, there's some people whojust live for that.
I think all of you are sort oflike that, right, shannon?
Isn't that who you are?
You're like the super connector.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
All of us are.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I don't think of myself as the connector, but I
do passionately believe that themore we can help others,
especially other women or peopleentering a workforce, the more
it elevates all of us.
And if that means connecting orwhatever we can do, Okay, so
let me do this.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So what was that?
This came out of MalcolmGladwell right, there's the
connector, the maven, the seller, salesperson right, I think
there was three.
And he described the PaulRevere thing and why Paul Revere
was more successful than theother guy that was riding the
horse right, Because Revere wasthe ultimate connector.
So where would you putyourselves?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Okay, which Malcolm Gladwell book would you start?
Oh, now you're quizzing me onthe book, but I'm not sure that
I.
Okay, so I remember this wasthe one I thinking me on the
book.
I'm kind of sure, but I'm notsure that I'm.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Okay, so I remember.
This was the one I think we'reall the best.
This was the one I think aboutthe 10,000 hours right, oh, yeah
, yeah it was outliers.
So if you put 10,000 hours intosomething, you're like the
expert.
And I think he went into thiswhole notion of well, there's
three types of people and ofwell, there's three types of
people, and of course heovergeneralizes.
So there's the connector typeand Shannon kind of triggered
(08:06):
this, triggered the thought,like there's the person that is
a connector or super connectorand that's what they thrive on.
And then there's a type ofperson you bump into that is the
maven.
They're an expert in aparticular field and that's what
they thrive on.
I thought it was kind of weirdthat he had the notion of a
salesperson, the one that justlikes to promote something.
If you were to take yourself,what would you consider
(08:28):
yourselves If you were to pickonly one?
For me, a connector.
Shannon's a connector.
She does this as a business.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So for me, I think I'd have to say a salesperson.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was going to guess the maven yeah, I'm a maven, I'm
a maven.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Ah, you have to know everything about your field Is
that what it is.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I like being deep in a thing that I'm interested in.
Expert.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
And I like being more of a generalist.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Interesting, so now you have one of each of us.
I know.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
And what are you?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Rajiv.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, how are you Rajiv?
Yeah, I would say I started mycareer as a salesperson.
I always wanted to be a maven,but I'd say I'm more of a
connector and I enjoy it.
I enjoy every part of it.
My greatest thrill is inconnecting people together.
I think I get the biggestthrill when people I put
together actually do somethingtogether.
That's great.
I got another question.
This is, many view networkingas a means to an end focusing on
(09:25):
their immediate career gainsand I think, Susan, you kind of
touched on this how canprofessionals shift that
personality to be networking, ifyou will, I mean we have people
(09:46):
that are more introverted,people that are more extroverted
.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I tend to see the more extroverted people enjoying
getting to know new people andadding them to their network, if
you will.
I think that might be a littlebit more challenging for
introverted people, not always,I mean, those are huge
generalizations anyway, but Ithink for the usage of a network
I mean the way you quote Ithink that's the question that
you asked, rajiv yeah, how doyou?
(10:09):
kind of incorporate that, how doyou use it and how do you build
it?
You know, I think you reallyshould be focused on doing
things that you like and thingsthat you know are in an area
that you're interested in.
So for me, one of the reasons Ilove the Harvard Network is
because I like business, I likecommercial discussions, I like
learning about industries, Ilike learning about new
(10:32):
technologies.
So for me, networking is aboutmeeting people who are in the
middle of those things, and atany level too.
I mean, they don't have to bean expert for me to be
interested in getting to knowthem.
I can just be.
You know, I met somebody at anevent the other night and she
started her career in thevirtual reality space and
obviously that kind of went itsown way and probably you'll find
(10:53):
a new life in a different form,but it was kind of really
interesting to me.
You know that that's how shestarted her career.
And then again, for mepersonally, I just am interested
in people's stories.
I find that interesting.
For me it's just really genuineand I tend to really like
building relationships withpeople, getting to know them
better.
It's pretty natural for me todo what I do on the network side
(11:15):
.
It turns out it's been reallygood professionally for me
because of the sector that I'vefocused on.
It really helps.
I was on a call today and we'redoing a reference on a candidate
.
You know, I know the head of HRat the company from before and
you know that wasn't the thingthat anybody thought might be a
possibility.
So just it shows up in waysthat can be incredibly helpful.
(11:37):
But I'm also the kind of personthat loves to get things done.
I think that's the maven partof me where the networking is
almost a means to the end togetting things done.
I happen to like it, but in andof itself, if it doesn't get an
outcome like if somebodydoesn't get a job that I
connected them to or not thatI'm unhappy about that, but I'm
always like so what's the endgame?
Where does the value getcreated in making that
(11:59):
connection?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think one of the reasons for the question is that
sometimes you only hear fromfolks when they're looking for
something or looking for a job.
Right, I've had CMOs variousCMOs call me and the only time
they call me is when they'relooking for a consulting work,
and I know what they're about.
They're not there tonecessarily talk to me.
They're there because I can putthem into something.
When I think about the notionof networking, it's like this is
(12:23):
part of living.
I think this is part of likeyou want to have a relationship
with someone before you needthem.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah, I think of it as like a garden You're planting
seeds and some are going tosprout, some aren't going to
sprout, and you nurture it overtime and they always the famous
quote your network is your networth.
But I also think it's somethingthat you're not attached to,
meaning that it is differentwhen you go into a networking
(12:50):
event and we've all been thereat a conference and people are
coming at you trying to sell youor get you to buy something and
that feels really that's wherenetworking gets a bad rap.
Right, it's when we're notattached, when we're wanting
something and it's graspy energy.
And so back to kind of whereyou're mentioning personal
development.
Dig into that and I have had towork on that really hard
(13:11):
because I've learned sales as afunction of my entrepreneurial
career and I'm really focused onnot being attached to the
results and making sure that myactivities.
There's a halo effect.
I know it's.
I know great things are goingto happen, but it's not as if it
has to happen with you or hasto happen with this, and I think
that's detachment to a resultis key.
(13:34):
So that's where, as Susan wasmentioning, you want to build it
in advance so you're notattached to a specific outcome
with a certain individual on thespot, but you've created this
garden and multiple people youcan choose from.
I always think about it thatway.
It's like there's not just oneperson that can help you,
there's many.
And how do you get that help?
(13:56):
And not single thread it withjust attachment to one outcome.
So that was something else.
Part about introverts is reallyhuge, single threaded with just,
you know, attachment to oneoutcome.
So that was something else.
And the part about introvertsis really huge.
I do encounter that in my work,especially as relates to dating
, and I think for introvertsthey do like smaller groups.
So instead of going into thatbig mammoth, you know event with
lots of people that probablySusan, Jean and I or GVU be
(14:19):
comfortable with, you, go tosomething smaller and that'll be
much more comfortable andprobably people with the same
type of expertise that you canreally click with.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I'd like to add to that.
You know that the termnetworking can mean so many
things to so many people,ranging from the huge cocktail
party type thing where you go toand we all have been to those
and we've all ended up talkingto two people because you
couldn't break away.
And you know so, as I wasthinking back on my career, some
(14:47):
of the things that reallyhelped me not just smaller
networking groups, but gettinginvolved in things that I was
passionate in.
For example, you know, when Iwas doing Commergent, that was a
lot of work, but I said tomyself I'm going to serve on one
nonprofit board that I'mpassionate about.
And when I think back to theother people who were on that
board you know, founder ofTwitter, you know we were all
(15:11):
sort of just figuring it out,but we were all passionate about
this area and they got to seeme work and got to know me and I
got to see them work and wehave a relationship.
So networking doesn'tnecessarily mean you have to go
out and, you know, go tococktail parties.
It could even be.
I mean, when I first moved toSilicon Valley, I worked for Sun
(15:34):
Microsystems, like that was.
Most people don't even know whothey are now, sadly, you would
not believe how many Sun alumnithat are out doing fantastic
things in all different areas.
That, because you know I waswell respected there and I
worked hard and other, you knowyou get to know people and so
(15:55):
there's all these networks that,if you sit back and think about
it, it's not just, oh, let's goto the global networking night
and have a cocktail, it's whatare you doing, every aspect of
your job and your career andeven things that augment your
job, like nonprofits.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I love that because it's really talking about how
people get to know you right.
It's one thing when you meetsomeone in the two second or 10
second, you have 30 seconds tomake an impression and it's
another when they're actuallyworking with you on a project.
So, jean, I mean you do thiswith founders, right?
You try to figure out how itworks for a founder, how should
they play it, or how have youseen it played best?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You know it's really tough as a founder.
It's always hard because whenyou're starting, you really feel
every minute that you're notspending.
Focusing on your objectives ofgrowing the company and building
a team is a minute not wellspent.
And that's why I think, sort ofsliding things in under the
guise like some of the bestpeople that I know now are
(16:51):
people that I interviewed thatweren't right for one of my
companies that I've just stayedin touch with.
You know we hooked up onLinkedIn.
And next thing, you know, youknow they're contacting me or
you know.
So I think, just being awareyou know you know they're
contacting me or you know.
So I think, just being awareyou know.
And again, going back to Susan'sthing, not people that you
think, oh, they're going to beable to help me at some point in
(17:11):
time, just because they're goodpeople.
And you know the next thing youknow I had a case where someone
then became a very seniorperson at Google, which was
someone who I trusted and gotneat that I'd never worked with.
So I do think, being open underthe guise of continuing,
because you know you have VCswho are constantly looking how's
it going?
How's it going?
How's it going.
(17:32):
They don't want to hear that.
Oh yeah, I had a founder whojoined a bus full of people to
go drive to a prison and helpthe prisoners for two days and I
was like, wow, that'sinteresting.
And it turned out, it wasfantastic for him and he made
some really good contacts.
But so you know, there's alwaysthat fun line.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
So if you're a founder and you have, like you
said, you have limited time, youhave to nail so many things,
how do you build it so that,when you do contact the VCs,
they know something about you?
Because you tend to invest inthe person that you trust the
most right, because you'reinvesting in teams, you're a
person that can run a great team.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
So I think that is absolutely critical.
And you hear these things wherepeople go and they'll do like a
coffee.
You know they'll get togetherwith a bunch of VCs and reach
out and VCs, you know they'llspend time.
I mean, but there's only youonly have five days a week that
you can have coffee.
Maybe you have seven, but youknow there's only so much that
you can do.
So I do think again, constantlythinking about what is that
(18:33):
person doing?
One of our initial investmentsI put her name into another VC
was looking for women CEOs for apanel and she got her name as a
panelist and became part of theefforts here and then ended up
raising money from the venturecapitalists, like two years
later.
So you know, being open toopportunities like that is also
(18:56):
a very good thing.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Shannon, I have one for you.
In the context of matchmaking,doing a do-over can rescue a
poorly executed first date.
How can professionals apply thedo-over concept to men damaged
or underutilized networkingrelationships?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So the do-overs, this is fun.
This happens, you know, peoplego on a first date and, for
whatever reason, they don'tclick and the other person
really regrets, like, oh, Ireally should have shown some
more enthusiasm and they want toa month later come back.
And this has happened where,you know, even past clients have
gone back to first dates thatI've set them up with and said I
(19:32):
really would like to do anotherfirst date again In the realm
of networking.
I don't think it has to be thatformal, because but I think,
knowing that sometimes we rejectourselves before we, you know
people don't think that hardabout what might've get muffed
up unless it was very serious.
So I always take the you know,assume best intent, reach out to
(19:52):
that person, follow up.
Guess what?
Most people are busy and Ifound you know, follow up,
follow up.
Follow up is kind of like sokey just doesn't mean nagging,
but just it's not just a one anddone.
If someone hasn't responded ina week, you just bump it up and
say, oh, just looping back onthis one's a good time to
connect for you and making iteasy for them.
(20:13):
So I think, having thatconfidence that it's not blown
if a bridge is really burned,you know, of course, then you
know it's serious and you don'tgo back to that.
But I do think that peopleregenerate and good faith, and
if you've got a really goodreputation, I think people are
always open to reconnecting andstarting anew.
So I think, less focus on thepast, more focus on the future
(20:37):
and also, once again, if you'realways coming to them for your
needs, then it's probably notgoing to be well received.
But how do you kind of, youknow, breathe that in advance at
goodwill Any?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
other thoughts on a do-over, how you decided to do
over Susan Jean, or you've seenit done.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
You're talking about in a business context, not a
dating concept, yeah, I have.
I mean, I think in the businesscase it's just being open and
honest.
You know, I'm really sorry.
My parents were in the hospitaland I just I didn't have my
head on straight that day andyou know I'd love to continue
the conversation.
And if the person says no, thenthat's, you know, like take
(21:16):
that and move on.
That will send better signalsand stronger signals than if you
, you know, bake right.
But life happens to all of us,and especially in technology.
You know, when you're not 8 to5, you're 7 to 24, you know life
is going to interfere every nowand then and if something
(21:37):
happens people are often waymore able to deal with it.
I mean, I just this week had aCEO who had food poisoning and
you know, texted everyone and weended up having the meeting,
the Zoom, two days later and youknow we spent five minutes.
Everyone had to say when theyhad food poisoning.
But you know there was a littlebit of bonding and she felt
better, and you know, and we allmoved on.
(22:00):
So don't shy away from beinghuman.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Yeah, this happened to me the other night.
It was at a networking event,not food poisoning.
No, not the food poisoning, butthe faux pas.
You know, it's one of thosesituations where you're meeting
all these people, you hear theperson's name in a loud room and
it honestly went in one ear outthe other, and then someone
else comes up and I need tointroduce him to her in one ear
out the other.
(22:23):
And then someone else comes upand I need to introduce him to
her and I didn't know his nameand you know I knew that didn't
fare well.
What I did afterwards is, Imade sure, connecting with him
on LinkedIn and just said, oh,it's so great to meet, you Use
his name and all that.
It's just also being consciousof how you might have a faux pas
.
You don't have to underscore it, but try to reach out and
reconnect versus view it as ablown opportunity.
(22:45):
Exactly that's cool, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
All right, susan, I got a question for you.
Sure, given that firstimpressions are critical, what
unconventional approaches canjob seekers use to make
memorable and a positive impacton recruiters and hiring
managers beyond the standardelevator?
Speaker 3 (23:03):
pitch.
You know this is where thepower of a network is so
important, because you know acold outreach, you know, is
typically not going to get anyattention.
You know, it's just that's kindof human nature, at least for
me.
And I think where I am muchmore inclined in fact I am 100%
inclined to helping someone Idon't know is if they've been
(23:25):
introduced by someone in mynetwork, no matter how you know
close gets you the job, but it'sthe person you know whose
brother's, sister-in-law's,cousin happens to have an
(23:47):
opportunity and you don't knowthat person from Adam but your
network person is introducingyou to that opportunity.
So that's sort of the theory ofweak ties or weak ties.
So I think it is always betterto have an introduction if you
don't know somebody, and thenit's sort of on you at a
networking event or in whateveractivity you're doing, to build
(24:09):
your network with people thatare in areas that might have
interest for you or do haveinterest for you and again, not
being so calculated about it,because everybody can sense
calculated networking and itjust feels inauthentic and it
doesn't feel very comfortable.
So I think you know, and Ialways advise people you know,
(24:30):
especially young people you knowto you know here.
I'll connect with you onLinkedIn.
Is there anyone anywhere in mynetwork that you somehow know?
Because that way, and if it'sin an area that you're
interested in, you know, I'llintroduce you to anybody.
I don't even need to know themthat well, but I'd be happy to
do that.
And to your point, shannon,about not being too worried
about the outcome of it, I thinkyeah.
(24:54):
So I think that it is actuallysomething.
It's just people are too busy,especially in the worlds that we
live in, to respond to peoplethey literally don't know.
I mean just, you know, and Iget it all the time, as you can
imagine, with the work that I do, and I used to and I mean years
ago, when I wasn't at thislevel or what have you I did
spend some time on it, but itgenerally didn't go well.
(25:16):
You know what I mean.
It's like the person was kindof like why?
And I would look back on my owninvestment of time and go why
did I do that, like you know.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
so there is something about those, you know, warm
introductions and they don'teven have to be super warm, but
just slightly warm.
That, I think, are more theones that are going to get
responded to and make aconnection.
You know, and with that firstmeeting was you talking about
making a connection or making animpression?
Go with the moment, like, youknow, if you're late because
(25:47):
there's a huge traffic accident,apologize, but you know talk or
the weather's horrible Talk,you know, and the next time you
reach out to that person you cansay I was the person that came
in, my umbrella had, you know,broken.
Or I had a guy in France wholived on the same, his street
name was the same as mine andlike 20 years later he reached
(26:08):
out and he said this is Pascal,I live on, you know, and I
immediately remember, justbecause we'd had like a few
minutes, a few discussion, alittle discussion of something
different.
So don't feel you have to comeinto that first meeting and you
have an agenda like letdiscussion of something
different.
So don't feel you have to comeinto that first meeting and you
have an agenda Like let go ofthe flow just a little bit and
be comfortable in yourself.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yeah, I like what you're saying about being
comfortable in yourself, becauseit's ultimately when it really
gets muffed up is when we getself-conscious and we're in our
own head.
It's like how do you start tothink about and I loved what
susan said earlier about beingcurious about them is like think
about them and get out of yourown mind so that you're focused
(26:49):
on really connecting and seeingthat person and being authentic.
That energy is going to showthrough, versus something that
where you're just trying to saythe right things, the same old
how are you doing, you know,where do you, where do you work,
and all that stuff.
So something that really feelslike the energy is exciting or
vital or real.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, I think it always helps to come in with
something.
There's a hook, it's genuine,it feels like today and they'll
always remember you and youalways.
When you meet someone for thefirst time or you meet them out
of context and you look cluelesswhen you first meet them, you
need that hook to get back inwith someone, right?
So it's a, it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It works really well, and you know, rashid, you can't
plan that hook Like, you can'tsay like it has to be the thing
that happened.
It has to be improv, right,absolutely, it has to be improv.
Yeah, I heard Stanford's nowteaching an improv in business
class and I think we probablyall had to do that on our own,
(27:48):
but it's a fascinating concept.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I did that actually.
We had this in a CEO group.
We had an improv comedian comein.
Actually, my co-host for thisis an improv comedian, sandeep,
and it's really just talking.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's the yes and thing.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
So right.
It's when improv is all aboutwhen you walk in the room and
someone says somethingridiculous and you got to go
with it.
You can't criticize it, Right?
So you just have to.
You have to build on it, andthat's the fun, right?
If somebody says somethingridiculous, well, you say
something that builds on theridiculousness.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's right, and that's what we're waiting for in
this podcast, rajiv.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
We're getting there, here we go.
Expectations are high.
Jean, by the way, who, when sheran the HBS Alumni Club events,
raised the most money out ofanyone in history, is now making
our podcast stand out.
So okay, here we go.
Spark of Ages opinions aboutcareer development and
(28:42):
networking tactics in 2025.
So here we go.
Spark of Ages Opinions AboutCareer Development and
Networking Tactics in 2025.
So here we go.
Instead of asking you questions, I'm going to make a statement
and you're just going to agree,disagree or give me one line.
So here we go.
Networking events are acolossal waste of time.
They're filled with peopletrying to sell themselves, not
genuinely connect.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Oh, can we do this?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
No, you got to go.
I disagree.
Shannon disagrees, I disagreetoo.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Oh, okay.
Well, I'm going to likesometimes agree because they can
be.
I mean, if you have a lot ofwork to do, to go to an event
that has a ton of people, maybeI'm the introvert, you guys,
she's an introvert.
Oh my God, no, no, I don't know, but I'm going to agree with
that.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Okay, maybe not as strongly, but I think it's
really hard to go an eventthat's just about networking,
yeah, but I go anyways.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
All right next one.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Next one Online networking is essential, but it
can't replace the value ofin-person connections.
Building trust and rapportrequires face-to-face
interaction, especially forsenior level roles.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I agree, I disagree.
Disagree I disagree too.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, I disagree.
You don't need to be.
You don't need face-to-faceinteraction.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I would have had a different answer six years ago,
but post-pandemic.
I think I've been able toreally leverage connection and I
have created babies with peopleI haven't even met.
How many babies Shannon.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
This past year.
Do you have the baby-o-meter?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
I definitely have had a lot of babies this past 12
months, so I definitely havecounted four.
But yeah, so I think I wouldhave had a different answer in
the past.
I do think you can build trustdigitally.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Without.
Okay.
And why would you have said,why have things changed?
Oh, just the advent.
I mean not just COVID, but theadvent.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Yeah, just the advent of Zoom and all the other ways
to connect I think has reallymade it much more able to look
at someone's.
I do think face-to-face doesmake you know is huge and you
still can read a lot of signalsand a lot of things by someone's
face and create that connectioneven though you're not there
physically with them.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
All right.
So, jean, have you fundedsomeone just off of Zoom.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
No, but I know VCs who have and have been
incredibly successful.
Typically, that's in a casewhere there might be other
investors who have, so you hearthose stories all the time.
But honestly, it's almost morework to maintain an online
presence.
I look at young people juststarting their careers now and I
think the amount of time theyhave to spend to just create and
(31:21):
maintain their online presenceis astronomical.
So I do think that takes a lotof work, but still, to me,
there's something about shakingsomeone's hand and sitting down
for a cup of coffee.
All right, susan, what do?
Speaker 3 (31:33):
you got?
Oh, I mean, I've hired so manyC-level executives without
having ever met them in person.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Without having meeting them With huge, but you
got opinions from other people.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
The person that you were hiring.
So you're hiring a CXO for aCEO.
Has the CEO met the CXO thatyou're hiring Well?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
during COVID.
no, you know so that's where itall started.
I wouldn't have ever thoughtlike Shannon, I would never have
thought that that would bepossible before COVID, but when
it became a necessity, you know,we through an online or a, you
know, zoom type connection, butI don't know.
(32:27):
I think we spend a lot of timein these types of settings now,
and I think we also get moreclues than maybe we would have
been attuned to when we're inthese settings that give us a
little more pattern recognitionon whether or not the person
either is worthy of my networkor worthy of a second interview
or whatnot.
So, yeah, I think I mean.
I do agree, though, that thereis nothing better than meeting
somebody in person, and I wouldalso say that, after having done
(32:50):
so much work online in severalcompanies, now it is such a joy
to meet somebody in person thatI've been working with online
for, in some cases, years,literally years, and then I get
to meet them in person that I'vebeen working with online for,
in some cases, years, literallyyears, and then I get to meet
them in person and it's likethey already feel like a really
good colleague or even a friend,but I never would have expected
that, and that's kind of a newthing that we're all kind of
(33:10):
experiencing.
All right, I got a few more.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Mentorship is overrated.
True career advancement comesfrom strategic self-promotion,
not relying on the generosity ofothers.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Disagree.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Why One sentence?
Why?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
The sentence I would add is that you know it takes
two to tango and you're nevergoing to get that opportunity if
there isn't somebody there andnot even helping you.
In fact, I don't love the wordmentor.
To be honest, I'm a much biggerfan of sponsoring.
I think that gets at my get itdone mentality.
Like you know, mentoring is Ican sort of advise or coach or
(33:46):
whatever, and I don't mind, andI don't think any of us mind
doing that.
Where I think it matters issponsoring people, like really
making the connection, saying Iremember there was a leader I
used to work with and, oh mygosh, she was hilarious.
She'd be like okay, here's thedeal, you are now going to go
meet this person and this isthis job, and you know, and it
was really sponsorship, itwasn't well, maybe you could
(34:09):
think about this or maybe it waslike here are all the things
you need to do and yeah, that'swhat I just I think there's a
big difference there and ifyou're just self-promoting
yourself, you know that.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Yeah, I disagree too, because the strategic
self-promotion backfires, that'sjust.
Everyone sees through thatultimately and you can't build
relationships just, you know,thumping your own chest.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Right, so it's mentorship is overrated.
That's what you're just.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That's what we're saying.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah.
So I would disagree with that.
I think mentoring or sponsoringor whatever, just being a
sounding board for someone whomight not have the experience
that you've had that you can betotally open and honest with,
can be hugely helpful for thatperson.
And again, it's you know, themore you elevate the team, the
(34:56):
more you you get elevated.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
And so I like it All right.
Next question the old boys clubis alive and well.
While lip surface is paid toinclusivity, real career
advancement still often dependson who you know within those
circles, not in high tech.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
So I would disagree in high tech Definitely.
Disagree in high techDefinitely.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Disagree in high tech .
Yeah, I disagree with the techbros notion.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, especially in small companies,
which you know.
I mean, I worked AT&T, boughtmy last company and I worked at
AT&T for a year and a half, sothat's a different story.
But in the small companies Ialways felt in Silicon Valley
you could be purple skinned andhave two heads If you could get
the job done.
(35:42):
People were going to respectyou and you know, I do hear
stories where people feel thatthey were discriminated against,
but not as much these days.
I really do feel it's moremerit-based, at least what I'm
experiencing.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
I disagree.
I don't have as much context inJean's world, but I do think
that there is.
I get to see it in my world andI think, unfortunately, there's
a lot of inherent bias that weall have.
We get familiar with who we'refamiliar with and it can be hard
for someone who isn't quoteunquote like us to break in.
(36:17):
Oh, wait.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
So then you're agreeing that it's alive and
well.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Well, what was the statement?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
The old boys club is alive and well.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
Yes, yes, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
All right, I like that diversity of opinion.
Susan, it's alive and well.
It's alive and well.
You work with a lot of big techcompanies.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
It's very alive and very.
I mean and part of it is yousaid it, shannon I mean people
are busy, they think they've gotperfect pattern recognition, so
it's very, and then they andtheir pattern recognition is
limited to what they know andwhat's comfortable.
They don't often have the timeto take to try to develop a new
neural network with somebodythat's different from what they
(36:58):
know.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Okay, so how would you break through?
Give me one tip on how a personwould break through that club.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Well, I think maybe it's a little bit what Jean was
saying.
You find volunteer activitieswhere you get to know these
people and you get in front ofthem, and there is, I mean, I
think it's still mostly an oldboys' network.
I actually think it's worsethan it used to be.
To be honest, I've been in techlonger than probably all of you
, because I'm older than all ofyou, starting at IBM before
(37:28):
there were PCs.
You can't use the age thing.
Come on.
Well, I can, because it wasbetter.
It was really better back thenbecause a lot of the companies
were really putting the effortinto bringing women into the
workforce and African-Americans.
And you know, especially IBMwas amazing at it.
And the longer I've been inthat, the more I mean.
You look at the statistics onventure capital.
(37:49):
I mean what is it?
95% men, white men, like that'sa pretty big old boys network,
or young boys network, as itwere.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So I do think, though , rishi, when you talk about how
do you get around it, if it isprevalent or you're feeling it
as someone trying to break in,focus on the results.
I mean, you know, if you'veconstantly doubled the revenue
goals, or you introduced aproduct in six months that was
originally scheduled, or youbuilt something, hopefully
(38:19):
you'll get some kind ofcredibility based on that.
So if someone is choosingsomeone because of pattern
recognition and you'veoutperformed at least hopefully
there's cognitive memories thatthey're doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I love that.
So focus on something you cando, that you can show an
objective.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, that you've done.
Even if it's your first job outof school, you have track
records of doing something.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Okay, I have one more , and then we're going to go to
the game.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You mean this wasn't the game.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Wait till you see the game.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
The truth in the dare we're going to amp it up with
the game.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
All right, here's the last one.
The best career advice isn'tabout what to do, but how to
think.
Mentors should focus oncultivating critical thinking
and problem-solving skills.
Maybe sponsors should Not justoffering specific instructions.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Totally agree.
Totally agree, agree.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Agree, okay.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
I'd also add to that even not just all of the things
you said, but also mindsetaround knowing you're heading
for a goal.
You absolutely know you'regoing to reach it.
You definitely don't know howyou're going to get there, but
you're clear, you're going toget there.
And training your mind to thinklike an athlete, an Olympic
athlete like you know, this isas good as done and you're, you
know, open to the differentpaths of how to get there, but
(39:38):
that is something I wish I'dlearned 30 years ago.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
What's a technique you use to help you with that?
Do you write it down and thenjust remind yourself every day?
Do you build on it every day?
How do you do it?
Speaker 4 (39:47):
You become aware Well , definitely writing down where
you're going, coming up withyour top three things you want
to achieve in a year big thingsyou want to achieve and then
just remind yourself that'swhere you're going and then, as
you start to encounter obstacles, knowing that that's part of
the path on the way there, andyet you are still heading there.
So that's the part is like mostpeople.
(40:08):
You know we hit an obstacle, wethink of it as like oh, I got
to turn around and go back.
Well, you don't.
You know.
You continue to know thatthat's where you're going and,
yes, you're going to have these.
You know bumps on the road ordetours, but it's just like that
knowledge that that's that'swhere I'm heading, and feeding
yourself those thoughts thatconfirm that.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Thank you, that was fantastic, so I'm going to go to
the game now.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
But Rishiva their prizes.
Where are?
Speaker 4 (40:36):
we going to spin the wheel.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
I'm happy to have a prize for this.
I just thought you're suchcompetitors in general that
winning is everything I know.
Jean, you're definitely intowinning.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
That is the prize.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Okay, welcome to the Spark Tank.
Today, we're thrilled to havethree powerhouse professionals
and leaders ready to ignite ourneural networks and set our
synapses ablaze.
In this episode, we're divinginto the wild and wacky world of
job hunting.
From outrageous resumes tounconventional application
tactics, we'll explore the mostbizarre stories of how people
(41:14):
have tried to land their dreamjobs.
These tales are not justentertaining.
They reveal the lengths towhich candidates will go to
stand out in a competitive jobmarket.
Get ready for a game that'lltest your lie-detecting skills
and challenge your assumptions.
It is time for Two Truths and aTantalizing Lie.
Here's how it works.
I'll read three statements.
Two of these statements areabsolute truths, while one is a
(41:36):
carefully crafted fib.
Your mission, should you chooseto accept it, is to separate
fact from fiction.
You ready?
All right, we have threequestions.
This is round one.
Number one In 2012, alecBrownstein bought Google AdWords
for the names of creativedirectors he admired, so he
created a Google campaign forthem.
(41:57):
When they Googled themselves,they saw his message asking for
a job, which led to interviewsand ultimately landing him a
position at a top advertisingagency.
Number two, in 2013, ryanMcCarthy created a Lego version
of himself and sent it topotential employers, along with
a QR code linking to his onlineportfolio.
(42:18):
Number three in 2014, ninaMuffley created a resume
mimicking Airbnb's websitedesign to apply for a job at the
company.
Her creative approach wentviral on social media and
ultimately led to an interviewwith the Airbnb team.
What I'm going to do is I'mgoing to count to three and then
put up one, two or threefingers, so you can't cheat, and
(42:41):
we'll see who wins.
Ready Three, two, one.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Oh, all different answers oh my goodness, all
different answers.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So Susan's a three, shannon's one, jean is two.
The lie is number two.
There you go, gene in the lead,all right.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
While ryan mccarthy is a real software engineer,
there's no verifiableinformation about him creating
lego version of himself for jobapplications you know, it's just
crazy enough that I thoughtmaybe that is true, but you
never know, you never know, younever know.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I usually lose this game when I play against my
guest.
So here we go.
Number one In 2010, eric Gandhidesigned a resume that looked
like a Google search resultspage, which went viral and
landed him a job at a top adagency.
Number two Lucas Yala dressedas a Postmates delivery person
to hand deliver boxes of donutswith his resume to tech
(43:44):
companies in San Francisco in2016.
Number three in 2018, asoftware engineer created a
chatbot version of himself thatcould answer interview questions
on his behalf.
Ready Three, two, one.
Let's see.
Gene is three, susan is three.
Let's see, jean is three, susanis three and Shannon is two.
(44:04):
The lie is number three.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yes, the question now is the person who delivered
donuts.
Did he get a job?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
So there's no verifiable information about a
software engineer creating aninterview enabling chatbot in
2018.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, that's pretty early, I could see that today?
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, that'd be straightforward.
Eric Gandhi's Google-themedresume this is number one did go
viral in 2010.
It was featured on various techand design blogs and ultimately
led him to be hired by a topadvertising firm Crispin Porter
and Bogusky so that was a bigone.
They're the ones that did getmilk.
The resume cleverly mimickedGoogle search results page with
(44:45):
Gandhi's qualificationspresented as search results.
That's good.
And then number two Lucas donutdelivery stunt.
Well-documented, hehand-delivered 40 boxes of
donuts to tech companies in SanFrancisco, each containing his
resume.
It led him to get over 10interviews and significant media
coverage.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
All right.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So here's number three.
Susan, you have a chance tocatch Gene in this one so either
you're going to tie or Gene isgoing to win.
Yes, and Shannon, you know wejust get one in Number one in
2020, a job seeker created aseries of TikTok videos applying
for jobs at major techcompanies, which led to multiple
(45:23):
interview offers.
Number two in 2013, philipDubost created an Amazon product
page style resume that wentviral, receiving over 100,000
unique visitors and multiple joboffers.
Multiple job offers.
Number three Robert Lenardidesigned an interactive Super
(45:44):
Mario style video game resume in2013, which showcased his
skills and experience as aplayer progressing through
various levels.
Three, two, one.
Oh, look at this.
This is interesting.
So the lie is number one.
Shannon, you get on the board,all right, lie number one while
(46:07):
TikTok has been used for jobsearching, there's no verifiable
information about a specificcase in 2020.
Or, philippe did do the resumecalled Philippe's Amazoning
resume.
It mimicked a product pagecomplete with product details.
Customer reviews and even a buynow button.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
That's fantastic, that's great, and he got job
offers from Amazon and Spotify.
Very clever.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Robbie's interactive resume, the Mario style one,
designed like a side-scrollingvideo game, launched in 2013,
gained attention in design andtech communities.
Users could navigate throughdifferent levels representing
his skills, experience andawards.
The innovative approachshowcased his design skills and
creative thinking and, of course, wide, wide claim recognition
(46:52):
and job opportunities.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
That's great, that was awesome, and so the winner
is je Jean, yay Jean, she's thebest lie detector of our group
today, when you said you weregoing to do this game, I was
really worried.
I thought you were going to dotwo truths and a lie about each
of us Me too, I know.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
That would have been good.
No, all right, we will have totune our AI bot for that, but
thank you, that was awesome.
I'm going to ask each of youone question and just give me
whatever quick pops off the topof your head and if you think
it's controversial, jump in.
But let's do it this way.
So you ready?
Yeah, I'm not doing this basedon anything I know about you.
(47:34):
So, susan, you're an investorlike me.
What's your anti-portfolio?
One company we wish we investedin, hired us, or a company you
founded?
Probably LinkedIn.
Linkedin for joining thecompany or investing in oh for
founding it, founding it.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Did you think of that , of started?
I know I, oh that was just agood one, like really good,
that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Shannon, what is your personal moonshot?
Define it any way you want, butit's something big you really
want to see happen or accomplishwant to see happen or
accomplish.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
Oh, so right now writing my book, you know
underway, but definitely kind ofa hard thing to get done when
you have your day to daybusiness to run.
So that's that's one I, and itreally is to serve and help more
people that I can't helpthrough my own work, but it is
really hard to shift gears andget that accomplished.
So that's the first one thatcomes to mind.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
And what's the book about?
Speaker 4 (48:43):
A book is about helping intellectually curious
singles find love, so how to bethe CEO of their own love life.
That's not the title, but I'vegot to wait till I write it to
figure out the title but reallyshowing them a proactive
approach and what to actually doand what to think and how to
market themselves, as well asfigure out their target market
so they can find their partner.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So find your personal ICP.
All right, jean, do you have afavorite life motto you return
to often and share with friendsin work or life?
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yes, I do, and I'm trying to think I've said this
before which is, and now I can'teven think of it but it's sort
of like enjoy what you do and dowhat you enjoy.
So, whatever you decide to do,find the goodness and the fun in
it, but also, when you'rethinking of that, gravitate
(49:39):
towards things that you know youenjoy, right.
So whatever you're doing, doesthat make sense?
Speaker 1 (49:45):
I love it.
Yes, that's great.
That's great, and is that whatyou've done?
Yeah, do you feel like that'swhere you are?
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Look at like what's happened in my career.
I've never done somethingbecause I thought I should.
I've enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed the people.
I like the marketplace or youknow.
There's something about itthat's going to make it fun for
me.
But even, no matter whatsituation you get in, just find
some beauty in it, find some fun, find it, make it a challenge.
(50:13):
So yeah, it's worked for me.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
That's a great way to end and I won the.
I won the game, yeah whichwhich I don't think I would have
heard the end of it if youdidn't win the game.
So that's the perfect way toend it, because I believe that
my three guests, Susan, Shannonand Jean, all are people who do
(50:36):
what they love and have achievedamazing things because of it
and because you've utilized yourrelationships and being
intentional to get there.
So I really appreciate all ofyou joining me today.
Speaker 4 (50:49):
Thank you, Rishi, Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
Rajiv.
Thank you All right.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Have a great weekend.
That was great to have SusanSharon community with me today.
There's such a fun bunch ofpeople.
(51:15):
As you know, one of the thingsI'm trying to do is bring the
world that I live in here youknow a New Hampshire boy moving
to Silicon Valley to all of you,and what I'm continuously blown
away by, by successful peoplein my life that have built
themselves up and definitely allthree Susan, gene and Shannon
(51:36):
all did that and have gottenthemselves to where they want to
be based on their life'sambition and that's something
that Jean talked about is thatdo what you want to, you know,
do something you love to do.
And Susan talked about whenyou're meeting with people not
keeping score.
And I love the statement byShannon that your network is
(51:56):
your net worth, and these arejust beautiful things that if
you incorporate some of theseand break out of your shell, the
world is open to you, and Ithink it's so important to be
bold like that and just seekyour way forward.
So thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's podcast,please take a moment to rate it
and comment.
You can find us on Apple,spotify, youtube and everywhere
(52:18):
podcasts can be found.
The show is produced by SunniParikh and Anand Shah,
production assistance by TarynTalley, edited by Sean Maher and
Aidan McGarvey.
I'm your host, rajiv Parikh,from Position Squared, an
AI-centric growth marketingcompany based in Silicon Valley.
We know how to grow and scalecompanies really well, so come
visit us at position2.com.
(52:38):
This has been an effing funnyproduction and we'll catch you
next time, and we alwaysremember folks.
Be ever curious.
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