Speak Out on Queer Sports

Ava (they/she), Charlie (any/all), and special guest Matthew (he/her) from the Elegant Bruinettes Speak Out on queer athlete representation and their own experiences in sports and recreation spaces. They also touch on the importance of queer self defense classes, transgender inclusivity in sports, and drag (hey, it's a sport! and an art!).

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Good afternoon. We are Speak Out by Outright, the oldest queer college publication in the

(00:07):
nation. We are a news magazine on campus that publishes once a quarter, publishes online
twice a week, and of course has this lovely podcast every Sunday from 1 to 2 p.m. live
on our Instagram at Outright News Mag and of course here on UCLA Radio. I am one of your
hosts, Ava, and I use they, she pronouns. I'm your other host, Charlie, and I use any

(00:29):
of your pronouns. And I'm your guest, Matthew, Marilis, Boyd, and I go by you here. Alright,
and today we are going to be speaking out about queer sports, which is perfect timing,
because the Super Bowl is in just a couple of hours, a very non-queer sports event. But

(00:49):
yeah, we do this episode every year. We tend to talk about putting a spotlight on queer
athletes, issues surrounding the queer community in professional and collegiate sports, and
our own experiences with sports as queer people. So yeah, why don't we kick this off by talking
about just our general experiences, whether it be as sports fans or as athletes ourselves,

(01:11):
or lack of sports experience, and maybe why we didn't find sports spaces to be affirming
growing up queer or currently. So I can kick us off. I did not do sports as a kid. I got
like boonswoggled into like a semester of marching band and hated it so much that I did like
no other athletic extracurriculars after. But now I do Don's En Rue or Hawaiian style

(01:38):
jiu-jitsu. It's more of an art than a sport, but I'm going to count it. And that's why
my hair is green, not for the Eagles, but because I have a green belt, I would just
like to get that out of the way. And I'm also a huge sports fan, and I work in collegiate
athletics and recreation with UCLA.
So I'm definitely not a sports person. I don't watch sports. I don't do sports. I am more

(02:04):
of your typical gay artist person. But I don't know, I think I don't think my queerness had
anything to do with me not getting sports. I think it was more so the fact that I'm disabled
and sports just really weren't accessible to me. I deal with gross motor dyspraxia, which
basically means that your motor skills don't always line up with your cognitive, like what
your brain's telling your body to do. And so I just am very clumsy. It comes to coordinating

(02:28):
my whole body movements and just found sports not something that was that accessible to
me. I also have trouble processing fast instructions about how to do stuff. So like I went skiing
once and then fell down the hill because they told me so quickly how to ski and then
we're just like, go. And I was like, this is terrible. I also got kicked off of a go-kart
track once because I kept crashing into people because they told me the instructions too

(02:50):
fast.
That's iconic though. What's the point of go-kart? Are you supposed to crash into people at
go-karting or no?
I win.
No, it was-
Oh, that's bumper cars.
Bumper cars. That was like a race track. Yeah.
Okay. Cool, cool.
Yes, I played sports growing up. I played soccer, basketball, not really soccer that much, just
for a little bit. Basketball, volleyball, which I love. And then around middle school, I was

(03:13):
like, this is kind of too wish for me. I was like, I don't really like playing anymore.
It was just like a fright. I played basketball for a fright, it's going to be very masculine.
Then I started playing trumpet and then I did marching band as well in high school and
I was like, oh, this is fun. I like it. And people say marching band is not a sport but
it is. It's physical activity.

(03:34):
You're walking and-
Playing an instrument is hard.
Playing an instrument, that's hard.
It's hard, it's very hard. And we do football fields too. This is close, close. And then
I started dancing in high school and then I danced here at UCLA with the brunettes at
And that is also a sport and I feel like dancing
is definitely more my vibe as a sport

(03:54):
because I was just very creative
and people have always been kind of friendly to me
and allowed me kind of just to express who I am,
be who I am without fear of being white.
Oh, I gotta be so masculine to throw a football or something.
You know?
Yeah, that's great that dance has provided that space.
I forgot to mention, I danced briefly in middle school
but I did folk dance with machetes.

(04:17):
It was, I did do normal studio, I did for one semester.
We did that too.
Did you have sticks?
We didn't do actual machetes, but we at least did some.
We had the sticks, but then when school tours would come,
we had the machetes, which they didn't really let me do
because it was boys did that part
and I had to do the skirt thing, which was fine.
But yeah, dance is a super welcoming queer space.

(04:41):
Do you wanna talk a little bit about the brunettes
as an org?
Because I feel like a lot of our viewers
don't go to sports games and might not know what that is.
Yeah, so our team was founded in 2022.
So it's our second year kind of being like a dance line
at UCLA.
We perform at the basketball games,
all basketball men's and women's games
and also the football games.

(05:02):
And it's just really amazing where a majority of us
are all black on the team, which is a really cool space,
especially your black history month.
You know, we get a lot of performances.
It's not only for basketball, but it is a space
and a dance line came from a space,
which where there was a lot of black people at HGCUs.
But yeah, so we're like at all the games, we dance.
Anytime they play music, we be dancing.

(05:24):
Anytime the band plays, we love the band so much.
You see the marching band.
They play music, we dance with them.
During football, we do field shows.
And during basketball season, we do half time
and timeout performances, which are really fun.
And it's just a lot of fun.
Yeah, that's really cool.

(05:45):
Do you generally find it to be a queer inclusive space?
Which part?
Our team?
The brunettes, yeah.
Yeah, of course, yes, my sisters.
They're all my sisters.
I love my girls.
Everybody on there, especially because I wear,
the women costumes, mostly the dance line
has always been dominated by female performers.

(06:05):
But I auditioned and I was like, I don't know if I should
because I'm very male presenting.
And they're like, no, of course audition.
You could do it.
And then they let me audition.
I got on the team and my coach was like,
oh, what do you want to wear?
Do you want to wear the costumes to everybody else?
Or do you want to wear something else?
Because we can do that too.
And I was like, you know what?
I want to wear the costumes to everybody else.

(06:26):
Because we're a team and we should all wear the same things.
The costumes are great.
I love that they have, you all have different ones
for different stuff as well.
The dance team just wears the same two costumes.
They're seems great.
We love their costumes too.
We do have a lot more range of costumes though.
We have long sleeve ones.
We have ones that are like kind of like bathing suits.
We have like an original costume that we made.

(06:48):
That was like shorts and a crop top.
Yeah, but they're really inclusive.
I love my team so much that they always hype me up.
When I do my makeup, they're like, girl, your makeup's
eating.
And I'll be right there like, oh my god, really?
Thank you.
All shy and stuff.
They're really good, especially during the games.
Sometimes people will be like, throw out weird looks
when they realize that I'm not a girl.

(07:10):
I'm not a girl.
So people will like look and then double take.
And be like, oh, who's that?
But my team's always there for me.
They're always like, don't mind them.
Don't bother them.
And so it's a really safe space, I will say.
That's really great.
Yeah, I feel like it's really important to have that representation,
especially not being in HBCU so that fans and even students

(07:34):
can see that there is a space for group people of color
to be in an athletic space.
Because I feel like it can be a very exclusive environment.
And athletics can feel like it really
is only for one type of person.
And especially, there are very few out queer athletes at UCLA.
I've written a lot of articles about queer sports.
I started the sports section for Outright News Magazine.

(07:57):
You should go read some articles from there.
But yeah, it was always really hard
to find athletes who would go on the record
and talk about their queer identity.
It was strangely easier to find coaches who had been
in that identity for a lot more years.
And I started looking into why this was
and looking at the research on it.
And a lot of athletes are so involved in their sport

(08:20):
that it becomes their entire identity when they're
at their peak performance time.
So when they're in high school, when they're playing Division
1, and they really don't have that time or space
to explore their identities in a way
that they would feel comfortable going on public media
and talking about them, which I find super interesting.

(08:40):
Because I feel like a lot of spaces
are moving more toward that sense of embracing people's
identity and embracing their differences.
But I think a lot of sports spaces
are still staying all consuming of the sport
and not necessarily of the individual players.
Yeah, I agree.
I feel like there's a lack of focus on like, yeah, we have

(09:02):
diversity and we have queer people.
And then it's like, oh, no one's talking about it.
Like you just mentioned it once.
And it's like, OK, but where's the queer people?
Or even teams that see it as a distraction, which I find
to be crazy.
Like, I don't know if you, I wrote the original article
on that NHL banning pride tape.
And now they've brought it back.

(09:23):
But it was only because that one straight man, oh my god,
what is his name?
The hockey, the NHL player who put the rainbow tape on his stick.
Oh.
I don't watch sports.
Oh my god.
I don't remember his name.
But he put this guy, just was like,
I'm not following this rule and put the pride tape on.
And then they were like, OK, I guess we'll

(09:44):
allow it to come back.
Because there was a lot of rhetoric around like, oh,
you're forcing players who might be from countries where it's
not safe to do so to put rainbow tape on their sticks.
When that was just totally not true,
like you could have the rainbow tape if you wanted.
But like, that was even, rainbow tape's like even harder
to get.
Most people just put like black or white tape on their sticks.

(10:05):
So I think that was really crazy.
And I know there are some teams, I
don't know if I'm allowed to name names, at UCLA who
won't do a pride game because it's distracting.
The coach finds it distracting, which there's
only one sport that has a full marketing team at UCLA that
refuses to do a pride game.
So if you want to find that out, you definitely could.

(10:28):
Do your research.
Do your research.
Yeah.
But yeah, do you guys want to talk about,
were there any queer athlete role models for you growing up?
And how did that influence your journey as a queer person
and or as an athlete?

(10:50):
That's a hard one.
I don't really watch sports like that.
Or even just like a coach or someone in your own life.
This is really random.
But like, Todrick Hall, I don't know if you know who that is.
It's like black dancer, performer, music with a theater
person.
When I was really young, I used to like watch all his videos,
which is really random.
But like, I was like, oh my god, like, he wears like dresses,

(11:13):
and he wears suits, and he wears like really sparkly,
bedazzly like outfits.
And I thought that was like so cool.
And I was like, I want to do that.
Definitely not, I don't know.
Definitely not an athlete in traditional sense, I guess.
Like, I mean, dancers are athletes.
Dancers are athletes.
Dancers are athletes.
OK, we train and we work hard and we dance.
And we sweat.
So we're athletes.

(11:34):
I'm trying to think of another person.
And I think like more recently, like Honeybilloseaga,
who like performed with like Beyonce and was on Legendary
on like HBO.
And they're like a, they vogue.
And they're really talented and they're so good.
I believe that they're not by name.
They're so just like, they're just so talented and like so

(11:55):
unabashedly, unabashedly them.
Like they have no fear when it comes to like being who they are
in front of anybody, in front of an audience of thousands of people,
which I think is really inspiring.
I don't really, I mean, the only queer athlete that comes to mind
is that one lady with pink hair who's like a soccer player.
I was literally going to say Meg and her Pino.
Yeah.

(12:16):
Oh my god, love her.
Yeah.
I mean, that's like, she wasn't really a role model for you,
but like I know of who she is, but like, I don't know when I,
like thinking about queerness and dance and also like black,
black culture and dance.
I also think about like, I feel like important thing to bring up
is like queer ballroom dancing, because that was something
that's been so influential in queer culture.
And like that's something I would see in my peers growing up

(12:38):
was like people doing queer ballroom dancing and just like
voguing around the classroom.
Like I had art students who would just be like, voguing on the floor.
And my art teacher was like, yes.
And I was like, okay, cool.
And I was like, I love this.
I love this.
I didn't know what voguing was until I was in college.
We had an LGBTQ club.
I was the straight supporter because my two best friends ran it.
I love the story.

(12:59):
And they were like, can you come to our club?
And I was like, sure.
And they were like, can you help with our chalk mural?
And I was like, sure.
And I was just like, they're awkward straight supporter.
They're like, I'm not going to be able to do that.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
I'm not going to be able to do that.

(13:21):
And then I ended up being a real straight supporter the whole time.
And then I ended up being queer.
And they apparently knew like rude.
Why didn't you tell me?
But yeah.
I'd say for sports role models,
definitely seeing Megan Rapinoe,
even though I wasn't a soccer player or really an athlete at that time,
was crazy to me because it was proof that someone who was openly queer

(13:43):
could be on such a large stage and be so completely successful
and not just be taken for, like,
and she wasn't just famous for being queer,
which like, I feel like a lot of other people
that you would look up to in the queer community at that time,
like Hayley Kiyoko, like I think a lot of people
only knew her for being queer,

(14:03):
and then secondarily for being a musician,
and the same with like Drag Queens
and other people at that time.
But I mean, currently I would say my queer sports role model,
sports arts, whatever, is my Jiu Jitsu sensei,
who's super cool, super queer,
and has just like always been super explicit about it.

(14:24):
My favorite thing ever is when they say their pronouns
as they slash sensei,
because I think that's such a power move,
like that's the ideal,
that's the ideal set of pronouns, I don't know.
Thanks for that sensei, I love that.
Yeah. Actually so funny.
I don't know, I still think that they should correct people
by saying like it's sensei when they get misgendered,

(14:45):
but they sadly, they sadly don't.
But yeah, no, they're super out about it in the AJJF,
the American Judo and Jiu Jitsu Federation too,
which is a lot of just like old white men,
like all of the, that I know of,
they're the only queer professor of the AJJF,

(15:06):
which is wild, it's a bunch of super old guys,
and there's a couple of women I think,
yeah, no, there definitely is,
but it's definitely in the minority,
that is changing though,
because a lot of the lower ranking people now
are queer and femme, which is great.
So give it like 20 years to catch up.

(15:27):
Self-defense, we love self-defense.
Yeah, I wanna talk about queer self-defense too,
as a modality for getting queer people into recreation.
I'm currently looking at doing my capstone project
for my social work program on how participating
in martial arts can help queer and trans people with PTSD,
heal their trauma symptoms,

(15:48):
and it looks a lot about the benefits
of the mind-body connection that you gain
from doing self-defense and doing martial arts,
although I'm looking at martial arts specifically,
because you gain more of that community aspect
by staying in an art as we're doing a self-defense class,
teaches you a lot of amazing practical skills,
but you're not with the same group of people for as long.

(16:10):
But anyway, yeah, I'm really into queer self-defense.
I think a lot of queer and trans people could benefit
from self-defense classes that are targeted toward them
and also come from a survivor-centered perspective.
Self-defense can be super scary
to learn so can martial arts.
There's a lot of like triggering things
for people with trauma,
because a lot of times you're acting out

(16:31):
like real life scenarios when you learn self-defense,
but there are super cool instructors
who teach it differently.
And I think it's really affirming
to take self-defense in a class full of queer people.
Yeah, as someone like with PTSD,
I feel like that is such a great valid point to bring up,
because especially with the fact
that you are reacting in acting trauma,
like I've talked to that about other survivors

(16:52):
and how it can be really triggering,
but that also can be so empowering
and the sense of community is so important
when you are a survivor who has PTSD of any sort of trauma,
because PTSD is extremely isolating.
And that's the number one thing they tell you
after you go for a traumatic incident,
is do not isolate yourself,
which I would love to talk about in so much detail,
but I'll get to go into,

(17:13):
but that's something that I just think is really great.
There's a organization, I think,
oh, I don't know the name,
Mars writes an amazing artist
who works with this organization regularly,
and I think they're somewhere in East LA
that does self-defense with trans women.
Is it Trans Defense Fund LA?
I don't know.
I think they're a large organization
and it's self-defense is only part of it,

(17:34):
but it's really cool.
And I think that we had, for Paul last year,
didn't we have a self-defense person who came in?
Yes, we did.
That's actually someone from my Jujitsu dojo
who assistant teaches the class that's in wooden
every Wednesdays.
Hawaiian style Jujitsu has a lot of self-defense principles.
So if you want to start Wednesdays at 7 p.m.,

(17:55):
it's $45 for the quarter in wooden.
But anyway, yes, Dr. Vanessa Carlisle
teaches some amazing queer self-defense all around LA.
They are the in-house self-defense instructor
for the Sidewalk Project Los Angeles.
They are also a self-defense teacher
for Trans Defense Fund LA.
And they'll be doing a workshop with the nonprofit

(18:16):
that I interned for as a social worker
called the Coalition for Engaged Education.
But they do tons of work on queer self-defense
that uses Jujitsu principles
and is survivor-centered.
They're very big on helping trauma survivors.
So that's super cool.

(18:37):
Yeah, I think-
I'd like to do a self-defense class.
I want to do one.
You should.
I'll send you the info with Trans Defense Fund LA.
They do low-cost classes all the time.
They do series of classes, just one class.
And they talk a lot about not just the physical parts
of self-defense, but diffusing a situation
and taking care of your body

(18:57):
after something scary happens
and kind of preventing a traumatic incident
from turning into PTSD,
which I think is super valuable for queer people to learn
because queer people are at a higher risk
of developing PTSD due to just like the aggregated effect
of microaggressions and discrimination.
And also the fact that people don't take

(19:18):
like queer sexual violence seriously either.
And that's something that I feel like our community
is very unprepared for and we're at risk
which I don't like to say that too.
Yeah, I think a lack of like queer sex education
and like normalization of queer sex
and queer sex work definitely contribute a lot.
And it makes it so that survivors are less able

(19:38):
to speak up about their trauma
and less likely to be able to heal from it in community.
Especially when it comes to people always saying
that people should report to police
because police aren't often safe places
for queer people either.
Or queer people of color especially, but yeah.
Yeah, we do not support.

(19:59):
But that's why it's so important to take care of each other
as a community through offering self-defense courses,
martial arts and communal spaces.
Because yeah, the mind therapy is fantastic,
but in addition, that mind-body connection you get
from playing a sport or doing a self-defense class,
as well as like the somatic support techniques

(20:20):
that you learn like deep breathing and grounding
through almost all sports,
especially those that have like breathing components
like yoga, is yoga a sport?
I can't say yoga a sport.
I can say, I'm gonna say it's a sport slash cross training
for a sport.
Like I do it for Jiu Jitsu just for the breathing.

(20:42):
But yeah, I think we lack a lot of queer athletic spaces.
Although some sports are just kind of inherently queer.
I hate that they're not the ones that get media time though.
Like when was the last time you all watched
a women's rugby game?
Yeah, or like wrestling.
Like my dad is, my dad's bisexual
and he's talked to me a lot about how wrestling
in high school was kind of like a gay,

(21:04):
well it wasn't a gay awakening,
but it was definitely part of his queer identity
and how like that, you know,
like you're rolling around on the floor
and pinning down another man.
Like there's no way that's not gay.
No, literally.
I feel like I literally wanted to stay away
from sports like that.
I was like, oh, I don't wanna be around like,
I was like, no, I don't wanna do,
I don't wanna do a sport that's gonna make people think
that I am like gay turns out I was.

(21:26):
But that's beside the point.
I was just like, oh my God, like,
there's just, yeah, I feel like there's like a stigma
around like certain sports.
Like, I feel like, I would say La Crosse is kind of like
sweet, but I don't know.
It is.
Like right?
Like La Crosse is like gay.
All of the niche sports are kind of gay,
like golf is kind of gay.
Yeah.
Going, thinking back now, like would you kind of reclaim

(21:46):
that by doing wrestling or one of those
stigmatized sports now?
I feel like I would, I still wouldn't do wrestling
because I'm like, oh, I would be so,
I'd be like, no, they're gonna think I'm like doing this
to just be on top of a man.
But I feel like I, yeah, I wouldn't do that,
but I think I would stick with volleyball.
Cause I did play volleyball for a minute.
And I feel like that one also is a queer sport.
Like volleyball is such a queer sport.

(22:07):
It is.
Merrick McHenry, our episode Lee Merrick McHenry mentioned
would love him to come on the podcast.
My favorite fun fact is like how Dinosaur came to creation
and how Dinosaur was actually like this like lesbian,
like tennis or golfing thing.
And the woman Dinosaur hates lesbians.

(22:27):
And then we created a whole lesbian pool party event
around her just because it was named after a tournament
that happened at the same time in like Palm Springs.
And now we have this like really great,
like weird lesbian event.
And it's really fun.
I didn't know that she was homophobic,
but I did know about the event
and I did actually want to go golfing
for my 17th birthday, but it was the pandemic.
So we got an in-home like little putting thing.

(22:50):
Turns out I'm terrible at golf.
And it's not like, it's not the kind of, no offense.
It's not the kind of lesbians that I'm like itching to meet
that are the ones that do golfing.
You know what I really loved in high school was field hockey,
which I feel like is inherently gay.
Like I love a sport where I can be playing against men

(23:11):
because we did that in PE and like just like fucking slaying.
I'll shoot, slaying with these men.
And just being also like that this is separate,
but like anything where like I'm a really big Star Wars,
I'm always show guys up with my Star Wars knowledge.
So just things where I could be
on the same playing levels and do it is so fun.
I love that.

(23:32):
Field hockey is fun.
Roller hockey is super gay.
And so is roller skating in general.
I'm always like making my queer friends go roller skating.
There's a queer roller disco night
at Moonlight Roller Rink.
It's like $30, so I tend to just go to Ralph Foy Park
to the outdoor rink.
But yeah, roller skating.
Come on, are you queer if you haven't like bought roller skates

(23:54):
and had a phase?
I feel like I'm still, I'm not in that phase
when I'm at UCLA because I feel like I'll die
if I roller skate anywhere on the entire West side.
Oh my God.
These hills, these hills are hard.
Going down Broodwalk.
I'm in Culver City where it's like flat and even so
like the drivers are not nice enough
for me to trust.
Like I can stop, but like I don't want to test that.

(24:17):
I don't, I can't stop on like a moments notice.
I have to do like the, and I don't like tea stopping.
I feel like it wears out your toe stop too fast.
But anyway, where I was going somewhere.
My parents do clear line dancing.
It's called stud country and they go and they dance
with all these other gay people.
And it's like cross generational.

(24:37):
So you have all these older people teaching younger people
how to do line dancing.
It's like this really cool, great cultural thing.
I didn't know that.
I always thought of line dancing as a little bit yee-haw.
But that's awesome.
I think that's the hardest that you're reclaiming this culture
that typically is not going to be for gay people
in a gay fashion, which I think is really empowering.
Can we reclaim boating please?
And like sailing, people always like,

(24:58):
my parents especially troll at me
for really being into boats.
But I mean, boating is not a super accessible sport.
So I do have a boat license
and I have zero on water hours.
So if anyone has a boat, please reach out.
If anyone has a boat and wants to let us film an episode
on the boat, please sponsor our episode

(25:21):
and give me that boat.
We've talked about we're in a Dungeons and Dragons group
and we've talked about doing an episode on a boat,
but there's too many of us that are seasick at seasick.
I get seasick if I'm below the boat.
Like if it's a big boat and I'm like below deck,
I get seasick.
I get seasick on the bus.
Like we can't do that.
Just go move the boat, just keep the boats.

(25:43):
By the port?
No, by the dock.
Actually no, not zero on water hours.
I have driven a boat, but it was like,
I don't know, I'm not the kind of person
who can drive a boat for seasick people.
But yeah, there are plenty of niche career sports.
Like is quad ball queer?
What's quad ball?
Formerly Quidditch.
Oh yeah.

(26:03):
I was considered going to use University of Edinburgh
for my undergrad and British people
have the weirdest sports.
They do.
Like there's this what?
Oh, it's like, yeah.
It's just really funny.
It's they have weird sports.
Yeah, I remember I walked onto the field.
I was interviewing women's rugby and I walked,
I accidentally, it looked like chaos.
So I didn't know it was actually like a practice.

(26:25):
I like walked into the field of the quad ball rehearsal
and they acted like I just stepped onto the field
and the Super Bowl.
There was, it was, I was like, this is,
you're taking this so seriously.
You're taking this silly little sport
with brooms between your legs.
It's so serious, they love it.
It's so serious.
I feel like quad ball should be queer

(26:46):
just because J.K. Rowling's like not a good person
and we should like reclaim that from her.
So now we're going to steal your sport
and we're going to make it queer.
Let's steal it.
I hate that there's no golden snitch in it though.
Like what's the point of the game?
I was wondering that.
I was like, who was the,
I thought it was just like someone running around.
They just have like the quaffle and the,
I don't remember the rest.
It's been a while since,
since pre-J.K. Rowling being a known asshole,

(27:10):
which is when I last read her.
Is that the dragon's sport?
You consider that as a sport?
No.
Really?
No.
I mean, there's like, there's like no movement.
There's like less movement than yoga.
Like you're just sitting there telling stories.
I think it's an art.
A sport for the break.
I think that when Jess and I wrestle,
it becomes a sport.

(27:30):
We should do larping.
That's, could be a sport.
We should do larping.
That's a sport.
I consider that as a sport.
That's a sport.
I mean, no, it's not really a sport.
It just involves other sports,
like fencing and sharpshooting and bows and arrows running.
Oh, we should do, we should do larp.
We should get some, do either of you larp?
I wanted to get into it for a while.

(27:50):
Fun fact, my name, okay, my name,
I didn't choose because of this,
but one of the people who really influenced me
as a queer person was a character,
Charlie from Supernatural.
And there's like a larping episode of her
and that was just like so influential on me.
That's amazing.
Yeah, I saw larping like over the pandemic on TikTok
and I've always wanted to do it.
Same with like fencing.

(28:11):
I feel like a lot of queer sports
have like a financial barrier to get into them though.
Like, I don't know if fencing is queer,
but that's expensive.
There's a lot of gear.
Oh, I did fencing once.
Everyone who fences always talks about the fact
that they give you these big plastic bras
if you're AFAB that you have to wear
and they're hilarious.
I don't want my boobs stabbed.
I would like a plastic bra.
People like sizes that are way bigger than what they have.

(28:33):
Wait, this is my sport.
It's great.
I'll finally get to have like a D cup, wow.
That's amazing.
Yeah, I feel like sports with cool outfits
are inherently queer.
You can get into actual like martial arts
lightsaber training and I want to do that.
What?
Yeah, like they'll teach you like actual combat skills

(28:55):
of a lightsaber and it's really cool.
Oh God, I love that.
I love that.
I really love Star Wars.
I would do that.
That's cool.
I am a big fan of Star Wars.
I used to be like a massive, massive Star Wars fan.
Now I'm casual about it,
but lightsaber training is cool.
Okay.
I feel like we could work that into self defense somehow,
but then you'd have to like have a lightsaber on you.

(29:16):
Oh, they're so expensive.
Which is inconvenient.
There's a whole market.
It's, I freeze, it's extensively.
I also, I'm starting to get into making lightsabers.
Oh my God.
Oh my God, yeah.
Wow.
I don't know what.
I'm just trying to figure out.
Is there an item that you don't DIY?
I can DIY anything.
You can DIY anything.
You can ask me for silicone products
and those are hard to find.

(29:36):
Don't swear at me.
Oh yeah, they are.
Oh my God, sorry, edit that out.
Is that a sport?
Is the use of silicone products a sport?
Oh wait, pole dancing though,
is a very cool queer sport.
I love that.
I think more queer people should get into pole dancing.
I feel like instead of making queer,
I for a long time was trying to make my queer friends

(29:58):
like sports.
I was like, let's do intramural basketball.
Let's do intramural flag football.
And I was like, no, I just need to make the sports queer
instead of making the queer people sports.
Right.
So yeah, maybe I should pitch pole dancing to outright.
It's so cool.
I mean, I've only done like one.
It's hard.
It's really difficult.
It's a lot of core strength.
It's so impressive.

(30:18):
I know a lot of, there's a fun fact,
a lot of people who are in the climate change scene
in like Europe who are activists that I follow pole dance.
So they're like these cool autistic climate activists
pole dancers.
And I think that is so like awesome.
That's amazing.
Yeah, pole dancing is fantastic.
I mean, my friend,

(30:39):
so I had this friend who I went to UCLA with,
which we unfortunately are no longer friends,
but we were both like, we turned 18.
We're like, let's do a pole dancing class.
She was a while.
That was really fun.
It's low key expensive.
And my thing is like,
I don't like sports that I can't practice easily,
like either at home or like at a gym.
Like where are you practicing pole dancing?

(30:59):
Oh, we should talk about gym environments.
Gym environments.
Yes.
I think there needs to be more queer gyms.
Also like, I know, like I've seen trans people talk
about like being pre-op and like having people give them,
cause you can't bind and work out.
And so like people will give you really weird looks
at a gym and it can feel very unsafe.
Yeah, definitely like, yeah, gyms are weird.

(31:19):
Like, especially specific ones are like just very like,
everyone's like being like awkward and like looking at you.
And like, I feel like when I go to the gym,
I have to, I wish to put like a character on.
I'm like, I'm a gym, I'm a gym bro.
I do this.
I don't do this.
I was like, I don't really go to the gym.
I don't really know what I'm doing.
So I'm just like, let me just, should I?
Do you guys not have your own like access

(31:40):
to the athletic facilities?
We don't.
We don't.
Oh really?
We don't.
You don't have like a costa weight room and stuff?
No, no, no, no, no.
Do they make you do weight like lifts and weight training?
No, no.
Okay.
And like we have practices like every three times a week.
And we like red laps and like we run,
usually we run across like UCLA.
So if you see us sometimes we're like running in a line.

(32:02):
I don't ever, huh?
It's good because we, it's early.
So it's like,
Yeah, I'm not, yeah.
When it's, I'm only in public affairs building
unless I come down here for like this podcast or a meeting.
Well, yeah, but we like train like mostly just like dancing
and like working out.
Like we don't really do like the gym workouts
when we're together, but we do like,
Planks and like all the like this stuff

(32:22):
you don't need to do.
I feel like that makes it inherently more queer accessible.
Cause yeah, gyms are a very intimidating space in general,
especially if you're queer,
obviously some are better than others.
I find wooden to be like the judgiest gym in the world.
K-Rec is fantastic.
You're a grad student or faculty
or know someone who can get you in.
It's great.
It's a Ken Ross and veteran.

(32:43):
I work there.
I don't know.
It's a super chill gym.
They don't play music
cause like they don't want it to be loud for people.
And they're just like people
that are just generally very nice like 95% of the time.
And they're usually, if they're going to be an ass,
they're usually an ass to the people at the front desk
and not other patrons.
So that, that's reassuring.

(33:03):
But yeah, I feel like going to the gym, especially,
I used to lift sometimes with someone who had transitioned.
And I think it's also really hard to like,
if you went to the gym a lot before your transition
to just like cope with like,
you may be doing different things
or like you may not be able to do certain things
that you did before, like hormones change your body.

(33:25):
And I think there's a lot of shame around that too,
especially if people feel like they're not passing
then like not being able to lift very much.
I know estrogen specifically, I've known people on it
where it significantly reduces your lifting capacity.
Let's talk about trans people being banned from sports.
Cause that's happening right now.
Okay, yeah, what are, what are our thoughts on that?

(33:48):
I think it's kind of crazy.
I think there are ways to regulate like,
I feel like once someone's been on hormones,
why are we paying attention to this at all?
Like just let them into the store.
Yeah, cause there's a whole argument that somehow,
like especially of trans women,
I feel like are being targeted the most that like,
didn't Trump just sign an executive order
banning trans women?

(34:09):
And it was like, like there's a whole thing of like,
oh, because they're AMAP, they're going to be inherently
more masculine and so like, and muscular.
That's what I mean.
And that they're going to somehow beat out the other women.
But I don't-
And they don't, like we've seen them compete like Leah Thomas.
Like I don't think she did so exceptionally that like,

(34:30):
she's no hate, but like,
I don't think she did so exceptional
that we can use that argument.
Yeah.
I'm not sure, yeah.
I'm just like, child, there's like so many other issues
to worry about.
And yeah, like you said, like there's like hormones
and stuff like that.
So it's like, you're, I don't know.
It's like very much a different body type now,
like they're transitioning and changing.
So it's like, what is the issue?

(34:52):
And your estrogen levels often end up higher
than the average cisgender woman.
And you end up like, some things just become like harder.
Like I don't think you're inherently at an advantage.
And I think it also depends on the sport.
Like, I don't know.
But then we also have people like cisgender women

(35:12):
in sports who are a lot bigger and a lot taller
and we're not criticizing them.
Yeah.
And also like things, I forget it's called for men,
but like, you know, you have men who are cis,
who have higher than normal estrogen levels
and women who are like PCOS is a thing.
And we're not talking about that being an issue.
Oh, can you get the door?
Yeah.

(35:32):
No, we're definitely not talking about that.
And I think, I think it's just really harmful
to exclude trans people from spaces that could be
so affirming.
Like I feel like sports should be inclusive
in the same way that art is starting to be.
Like sports has so many benefits
for so many different types of people
in their mental and physical health.

(35:55):
I think we're really doing the queer community a disservice
by not creating spaces for trans people to be out
and not get crap for it.
Yeah, I also think it's like,
you're definitely doing like,
it's like just like notion of like doing like a witch hunt
and out because like even like cis, like women are cis,
or specifically like cis women who like are a little more
like masculine or have more masculine features.

(36:16):
You're like, people are just like coming for them
because they're like, you're a trans woman.
It's like, no, they're just, they're cis women.
So you don't even know, like, you don't even,
you have no basis of what you're basing your,
your, your, your hate or stigmatism.
So it's just like affecting not even just cis women.
Well, majority is, it's 99% is affecting trans women,
but then there's like cis women who get affected as well.
And it's just like, it's just really stupid.
It's like it's too weak to witness life every day.

(36:39):
I think people are caring about it now
at more levels of sports than ever before.
Like, come on, do we really care
about your child's like AYSO team?
Like this is not the Olympics,
which I mean, I don't think it should matter
at the Olympics either,
but like this is, this is like children's soccer,
like you need to teach your children to be inclusive

(37:00):
and to learn how to get along with different types of people
and how to create a safe space.
because that's going to make them into a better adult than winning any soccer game is.
Yeah, and something that's important, like we've talked about for like my family friends,
like one of their kids has ADHD and we've always wanted her to get into sports just because it's
really good for ADHD and also really good for team building because she has a very competitive

(37:22):
nature which I mean is encouraged in sports but also you get team building aspects and it's
really good for like teaching social skills and stuff.
Yeah, I definitely think the community aspect of being on sports teams is extremely important
and I feel like for a lot of queer people it's hard to find that especially in areas
where there aren't a lot of other queer people so having more inclusive sports spaces would really

(37:47):
help with that and also having greater accessibility of sports that queer people tend
to go toward like I think rock climbing and like skating and all of those need to be a bit more
accessible like there's always like an accessible soccer team or a basketball team to join for kids
but I think we need to make more of those niche programs that don't get as much funding because

(38:09):
you're not going D1 for skateboarding although I think you should, I don't know.
That's against this culture of skateboarding to have a D1 team.
Oh my god, I just want to break dancing at the Olympics and how bad that was.
I don't know, I think that break dancing is getting a lot of crap and I think it should be a sport.
I think it should be, it's my hot take.
I think it's just like that one Australian woman, Reagan.

(38:32):
Reagan, like just blew it for everybody else because everyone else was doing a great job
showing off their like stylistic like just like their personal touches and like break dancing is
really difficult and very very um it's like you have to have a lot of control, have a lot of like
also like creativity to like do like moves that are look different than everyone else's.

(38:53):
My thing is I don't understand the judging part of break dancing like how like to now
gymnastics is also very artistic but there's like if you look at scoring there's like
everything is broken down, how point, how deductions work, how does break dancing feel super subjective
and like it could be open to judges being really biased toward queer people without being held
accountable because there's no numeric system or like not a widely known numeric system.

(39:17):
I don't know how they broke up, like broke down the scoring.
I would just assume like they're like okay you hit this move like almost perfectly like like in
gymnastics like okay you landed well. Are there are all like every move in gymnastics has a score?
Yeah, yeah. Is every break dancing move like accounted for? Can people make up their own?

(39:38):
Like I feel like they can. Yeah that is hard, yeah. Which I think is cool but yeah. I don't know yeah
that's that's difficult I think because they're not doing it this next one but I think they
should work on it. They're bringing back softball though. Oh my god my friend's gonna die she's so
excited about that. It's in Oklahoma though we're not gonna be able to go. Oh yeah. I'm gonna go to
skating though if any of you random internet people want to join me because I don't think you

(40:02):
will. That would be fun. Do you want do you want to pay that much for sports? Oh I said that on
Nevermide. I forgot it was expensive. No I'm like I need to start saving for that soon.
That's gonna be so crazy. Oh it's gonna be so cool. Or like oh like in judo I want to see I love watching
judo. Okay that's cool. I don't think I've seen that. I do like to see people fight but that's

(40:22):
it. I was gonna say like like sports fans and like how they're like not really queer. Like it's like
yeah yeah why are queer people not being fans of sports? I can't find any queer friends who like
will go with me to games unless I like bribe them. Yeah. Alright I'm like come to this free game and
then we'll go. Yeah we talked about it. I can't even bribe you guys with alcohol because most of you

(40:45):
don't drink. No I don't drink. Or most of you like will drink but it's not a draw. And some of you
throw up after three beers. Who are you referencing tell me after. Yeah no I'm calling Jessica out live
on air. Oh my god. Leave that. Edit that out. From Jessica. Jessica's gotten a lot of slander this

(41:07):
podcast. We love Jessica. Jessica also is the one it does remotely like football and went to a lot
of football games as a kid but yeah any yeah why are queer people not sports fans? I mean I guess I
can answer that. I just I don't know I just never found it that much of an interest. I think part of
it is I just can't it there's it's like learning well it's like learning all these rules and I

(41:32):
just don't have the time and attention to do that to understand the game. Then I think soccer is the
game I wouldn't when people don't say they don't want a lot of rules I'm like soccer's super easy
you kind of just like it goes in it goes out like there's more to understand but you can enjoy it
without knowing everything. I feel like soccer is definitely hard to watch. I mean not hard to watch
but like I I watched a soccer game recently and I was like what I'm like why are they doing this I'm

(41:55):
like why they they're like no it's like offside and then you have to do there. Okay okay yeah
explaining offsides to people is like my least favorite activity. I was like what are you talking
about and then they're like I'm like why is the time counting down. Why isn't it counting down. Oh and
explaining extra time to people is annoying my dad hates it he's like I thought we got to go home
now and I'm like no there's like eight minutes of extra time it's like nine minutes ten minutes

(42:16):
and then it's twelve minutes right I don't understand this but I think like there's like less
queer like fans because like I feel like the expectation of like fans is like so like hetero
and so straight like it's like I don't want to be around people people drinking beers like
like shoving me and like being rude like I don't I don't want that like that's that's what

(42:36):
spoils like deterred me from like wanting to like go to a game and like you're like uh like this is
too many too many dude bros here like I don't want to I don't that's just like the expectation I don't
think it's like that always but yeah yeah and I also feel that too if like the expectation is
going to be all these like white straight guys who are just like yeah sports and I'm like I don't

(42:58):
vibe with that like I just feel like when you're in the arts it's such a different scene than sports
and they don't always mesh together except like in stuff like dance but that's just something that
I don't know I just feel like there's very distinctly separate cultures and I find that very fascinating
I think women's sports are doing a good job of kind of reframing that culture that fan culture

(43:18):
especially angel city which I'm wearing their inaugural season away jersey um they do a really
good job of putting queer people at the forefront of the fan experience they have one of the best
pride games I've ever been to which pride games are a great way to get more people going to sports
because they'll bring in like queer celebrities and queer musicians to kind of like attract people

(43:41):
and it gets people to the game I don't think pride games are enough I think teams need to be doing
more to support queer communities and I think a lot of it can be performative but I think it is a
start at getting queer people to just like go to a game which is nice um but yeah I've I've always
found women's sports spaces to be a lot more inclusive as we're like yeah when I go to the rams

(44:01):
it's definitely very masculine it's incredibly loud um people people get really really rowdy
and really drunk as we're like I don't know I find women's soccer to be like the chillest sport
sport experience ever you're gonna see tons of queer couples a lot of pride merch um people do

(44:23):
get drunk but not to the like violent messy extent that they do at like men's soccer like I won't go
to an LAFC game oh my god yeah I think the only time my dad ever said to me hey let's go to a
sports game because my dad's also not a sports person was like the like the LA women's like
soccer or I think or I think might have been the basketball team but like one of them's very or maybe

(44:44):
both of them's very gay and he wanted to go see that they're both gay the sparks uh the sparks
really need to up their fan experience I went to one the team like I like them the deal is you can
either not be very good and have a great fan experience which is what Angel City is they're
objectively bad um I love them I love them to death they're just they they just don't get the

(45:08):
ball into the net and I think that that's like a really big non-negotiable in soccer but yeah the
sparks I don't love their fan experience it just the stadium feels very empty they're MC like the
MC that was there when I went wasn't just like very good um but yeah I don't know it definitely felt

(45:29):
like a very safe space even if it wasn't very like crazy but yeah I just think you have more openly
gay people in sports get gay people who want to watch sports oh yeah like people would go to O.L.
Rain just to see Megan Rapinoe and people come to Angel City to see Christian Press who's very
queer very cool let's hope her knees stay intact I was gonna say like the women's basketball games

(45:52):
here at UCL they have been like obviously because like we go to all the games um and we've been like
seeing like there's been so much more turnout um for the women's basketball games recently and I'm
like so happy and proud to see it like it's so cool to see like them getting their appreciation
especially when I love the women's like the women's basketball team here like they're so talented
and they're debatably better than the men's in my mind and that's not debatable uh oh cut that out

(46:17):
no okay um like to me I just love the women's and they it's been such a great turnout to see
so many like new people actually when I come and like watch them perform and like or sorry play
um basketball so it's like it's firing it's really cool and they also bring out like more like
um like the MCs are always women like they I love that too like usually like it's just

(46:38):
they're women for the men's basketball too but yeah we love Heather yes they're so fun they're so
fun yeah um comes to the women's basketball games and just the women's sports games they're so good
they're so talented and they play like they don't read like someone bumps into them and they're like
not like on the floor like laid out calm yourself you know because it's not soccer right they're like
they're like really like I don't know like they're more fierce than the men in my mind they're yeah

(47:02):
they're so great um and yeah it's important to have those those uh inclusive fan experiences
and to have more women's sports bars because I feel like people no one will go to sports bars with
me I feel like people are very intimidated by that environment um and there's I'm so sad the
ruby fruit closed they weren't really a sports bar but they were as close as Silver Lake is getting

(47:23):
but yeah I think we need more queer sports watching spaces too um because watching sports alone is
kind of boring like I get why people wouldn't do that because I didn't my parents were not into
sports growing up either I kind of forced them to be into it um shout out to my parents for going to
a lot of soccer and football games um and paying a lot of money to go to sports that they didn't

(47:45):
super care about um but I'm trying to think of other increased sports I'm like drag race is a sport
no I've never said drag race is a sport I love going to watch it is I love going to watch like
um like the watch parties at like bars and stuff like there's watch parties there's I'm into
the taps I'm playing at these taps because they're 33 taps is that in we have this in Culver City

(48:07):
there's one in we have to yeah there's a I live in Culver City we should be going to this I'm
going to swim I was in Hamilton so I was like oh nice nice okay it's like right there like by the
shirt it was like down the block what how did I never it's really I walked around there trying to
find a bar I went into Jameson's and it was like two packed and so then because it was it was Dodgers
versus Padres and I was like I'll go watch it somewhere no no I will not um we gotta go to that

(48:33):
yeah it is they have drag you know right before um which like obviously drag queens doing drag
bingo and then they play the episode season 17 oh okay oh my god oh y'all should also go to them
Fatal um it's a all like queer non-binary drag show they host at different places every time
and they tend to like put a lot of their proceeds toward raising money for something like the one

(48:56):
I went to in December was raising money for like Trans Santa um which was like giving gifts and stuff
to transgender kids who didn't have the best relationships with their families um and I
know that they donated a lot to Altadena in their last you see how they should have a drag team yeah
why do we not have a drag team like I I've done like drag makeup for years and I would love to get

(49:20):
performance experience but like the idea I don't know I just don't know how to break into it and
so like I feel like if we had a team it would be a lot easier I feel like clubs want drag queens a
lot like Paul well also drag people don't want drag kings though that's the thing is like I feel
like we have like RuPaul has said he does not want drag kings on his show really and like this just
that whole culture I think part of it too is like I feel like there's still a lot of sexism when it

(49:45):
comes to gay men especially white gay men and there is a um like this whole aspect of like drag
kings inherently defying um like being feminist and defying like gender stereotypes I mean drag
kings do it too but there's a more like political feminist aspect to that and I think gay men are
off by it I didn't know that because we uh for Pride Admit weekend we paid so much extra to fly

(50:08):
a drag king down yeah because I couldn't like I just like I knew this one and I don't see them
very often yeah um there's not that much of a scene there's documentaries on that and a chevitz
though I don't know if that's drag king or burlesque necessarily but who is that Anna Chevitz
a Jewish drag king slash burlesque person who dressed up as drag Jesus at them Fatal was

(50:33):
fantastic the crown the whole the whole beard it was amazing but yeah I did not know there were
so much drag there was a drag Harry yeah there was a drag Harry Potter performance that my friends
that mean that was my favorite thing ever huh okay we like that I want drag wicked drag oh my god yeah
oh my god genderbent Glinda please someone gay glinda is begging to be a twink no literally

(51:01):
I've been saying this there's a twink inside of Glinda waiting to come out we are holding space
for the gay Glinda holding space for twink Glinda oh my god I'm telling you gay Linda that's her new name
oh my god my drug name I like daddy long legs I've always thought that's a hilarious drag king
name who is this oh no that's just my idea of a drag king name wait I like that I like this so much

(51:26):
what's your drug name I don't have one oh my god you need to have a drag name yeah drop one in the
comments yeah drop drop in the comments or message us on Instagram and we'll discuss it next episode
that's also something I've offered to all of my past partners is to do drag makeup for them oh my god
like like take photos of myself and drag makeup and also to like put makeup on them this is fantastic

(51:47):
I've seen a date in drag like king makeup I feel like I've seen drag king makeup on your Instagram
yeah um wait that's amazing we need to do a drag episode and we need to bring on like drag kings
yeah we do a full debate do I can drag you can drag me debate oh my god how there's a limit to

(52:07):
telling people we can fit in this room that was so fun just like all these and I feel like we'd
have to like specify the types of outfits they can wear because I feel like I've seen some drag queens
wear like these giant dresses and I'm like that's not gonna fit in this we don't have space to hold
for this amazing outfit it has to be a little pussy wig and then like a little forever 21 dress

(52:29):
that's like so small but like you're shouting I've always thought it would be really cool to have like
a drag queen wearing a UCLA spirit squad outfit those are just begging those little the the cropped
ones are just begging to be a drag outfit that's like actually so cute that's how I'm gonna
I'm gonna wear me that yeah one day I'll do drag it I'll do that like yes you you definitely should

(52:53):
let us know and we will do a performance review oh my god I'm just watching if you like
I don't think I've ever given anything a negative review I think there was one thing that I won't
name that I went to my review of it was negative and I just didn't publish the article because I
thought the org was fantastic I just thought that specific thing they did was really aggressively

(53:17):
mid but um oh god we haven't done a performance review in a while since still in Mulvaney I haven't
done one since still in Mulvaney who is that the like the trans tiktoker oh yeah yeah yeah who got
in trouble with Bud Light I forgot about that yeah let's let's watch abracadabra and review it abracadabra

(53:39):
what is it by Lady Gugger her new music album doesn't it oh oh yeah I've also heard reviews from
disabled people because it's a sitting down dance so disabled people can do it I've heard that which
is fantastic oh my yeah we need more disabled drag representation oh my god yeah the one we brought
down for paul king lotus boy um is great disabled drag representation and talks a lot about disability

(54:02):
advocacy uh in his work which is great I can do a whole thing on like using um acting and autism
and dragon autism because like putting on a character is like such an interesting thing when it comes
to the history of masking but that's that's for a different future episode um for a week where I don't
have one that's uh there's just um like it's like um drag queens who have autism and I forgot their name

(54:28):
for the second group with that really oh what what drop us the I know I'm gonna have to find out I'll
put it in the comments when I put this on Instagram I love them so much they're so they're so good like
they're so good oh my god that's that's fantastic have we been to hamburger mary's is that the place
that does drag me go yeah I I haven't either yeah yeah I've heard of it and they have like a big

(54:50):
hamburger like woman out there they do and I approve of this we need to go to more drag things
we should do that we should if they're in culver city we should have like a dnd like drag night or
something and just like go like not like playing d i mean our characters have done burlesque now
oh yeah we had our characters do burlesque every campaign really except

(55:13):
no dia drea did not do okay my one fairy character did not do burlesque her name is
diridra and she was the poet from the song poet soldier king oh that was like her whole thing um
and her whole thing was like anyway this is we are derailing and we are also coming to the end
sport it's a sport dnd is a sport um I don't know I think that's our hot take that we're gonna get

(55:35):
flamed on the internet for but anytime we get hate we get more views um like we got hated on by
ben Shapiro once and we got a lot of views so I don't know hate on us don't you know don't hate on
us but if it happens it happens that is the moral of the story um we are coming to the end um enjoy
the super bowl but don't forget about queer athletes and uplifting spaces for queer people to do

(56:01):
sports um because it's really great um I've been Ava I've been charlie and i'm Matthew and we have
been speak out tune in next week one to two p.m live on at outright news mag and on ucla radio
to see what we have to speak out about next bye bye