March 17, 2025 • 29 mins
Communication is a delicate dance requiring awareness of four critical layers: what we mean to say, what we actually say, what others hear, and what they think we mean. Amanda Schenkenberger and Elizabeth Green explore how understanding these layers transforms family dynamics and builds stronger connections.
• The "yellow light" approach: slowing down when tension rises to respond thoughtfully instead of reacting
• Using breathing techniques (longer exhales than inhales) to calm your nervous system in tense moments
• Understanding how different personality types and values affect communication styles
• Adapting your communication to match your child's unique wiring and needs
• Transitioning from "sage on the stage" to "guide on the side" as children grow
• Allowing natural consequences to build responsibility in a safe environment
• Recognizing metacognition (thinking about your thinking) as the foundation of self-awareness
Join Amanda for her free "Calm the Chaos" event in early April, specifically designed for homeschool moms wanting to address internal, routine, and relational chaos.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green and today'sguest is Amanda Sheckenberger.
Amanda helps moms calm thechaos and confidently homeschool
.
She leverages her ownexperience as a homeschool kid
and now a mother of four boysinside of her program at
homeschoolfamilylegacycom, whereshe coaches moms to blend
rigorous academics with joyful,connected learning.
(00:23):
Amanda, we're so grateful tohave you here today.
Thanks for being here.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Elizabeth, I'm so excited.
When you reached out and toldme about your resources, I was
like this is something we'vebeen looking for, so I'm so
happy to meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
That's awesome.
I'm glad that you were able touse the resources, and I just
realized just now that you havefour boys.
I have two boys of my own, so,fellow boy mom, here I get it,
and I think that this is aconversation that we're going to
have today applies to all moms,boys and girls, homeschool, not
homeschool, all the things, butwhat more could we want than to
, you know, encourage our kidsto love learning, to have fun
(00:59):
learning, be lifelong learners,and what we really want to talk
about today is to be goodcommunicators, right.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, oh, my goodness .
As a kind of an only kid for along time with a deaf dad,
communication was something Ihad to really work hard on
learning how to do.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Oh, I'm sure, and everybody does in different ways
, whether it's a challenge likethat, or maybe you're in a
family with lots of kids and youdon't get an opportunity to
speak up enough.
So what we do, you know, wetalk about building
communication skills andconfidence in our kids so that
they can use their voices tomake the world a better place,
and so that's a very broad thing, right.
(01:41):
But what we want to talk todayabout there, it's not just as
simple as teaching them how tospeak up, right, there are lots
of different levels and layersof communication, and so let's
just kind of dive into that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's some kids that you don't
have to teach to speak up, likesome of mine.
I'm like, can you stop speaking, right, and help them slow down
and listen?
And so the learning to speak upand the learning to listen well
is I like to kind of call it alittle bit of a dance.
Communication is a little bitof a dance, right, like I'm
(02:14):
leaning in and listening andunderstanding, but also here's
my thoughts and feelings, right.
And so in my journey of growingup with a deaf dad and kind of
being an only for most of mylife, I just, for whatever
reason and I'm also likepersonality wise, I'm a bit of a
(02:35):
challenger, I'm a quick thinkerand sometimes I react before I
really have time to like thinkabout what I'm actually trying
to communicate, and so it's veryguttural and feelings forward,
and so I had to really slow downas as a homeschool mom, I'm
(02:57):
just as a person in order tocommunicate effectively, because
it's not just about the wordsI'm saying, it's about the other
person and the words they'resaying and meaning.
And so one of the things thathas really helped me when it
comes to communication,elizabeth, is learning about the
(03:17):
layers of communication andwith part of my journey as a mom
.
I read a book called Listen Likeyou Mean it, and the author her
name is Zymina Vengochega orsomething she's got a name
that's more abstract than mineand she talks about there being
(03:42):
four layers to communication,and I want to just share them
with you briefly and we can kindof talk about them a little bit
more in depth.
But she talks about the fourlayers being what you mean to
say, what you actually say, whatthe other person hears and then
(04:03):
what the listener thinks youmean by that.
And so, as you think back overa recent communication with
somebody maybe a heated one,right?
Did you get out what you meantto say and even so, did the
person listening understand yourmeaning behind it?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's amazing.
I have never heard it brokendown like that and that is like
the perfect summary of whatcommunication is and also, like
you said, what leads to heatedcommunication, right, whenever.
We don't understand all four ofthose layers, so let's start
with what the first one was,what you mean to say, right?
(04:43):
Okay, so how?
How give us some examples ofwhat we mean to say and what we
actually say, and how?
That doesn't always match up.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, sometimes, and so from an adult perspective
right Cause there's even a Ithink there's a fifth layer when
we're talking about childrenbut, like from an adult
perspective, there are thingsthat I haven't necessarily
thought through.
For example, a couple of weeksago I'm on the phone with my
husband and I'm having arealization that he got involved
(05:14):
in like this little sideproject with, like ChatGPT, and
he's like diving into it.
And I'm talking to him, I'mlike, but you're, you didn't
call me today and you haven'tcalled me for the last few weeks
, and and like you're notchecking in on me, and I feel
neglected.
And I'm kind of in the moment,going through these layers of
(05:35):
what I actually mean to say is Ifeel like you've developed a
relationship with chat GPT andchoosing it over me and I we
laugh.
But it's real, it's real.
I was like you are having alove affair with chat GPT.
What about me?
Um, and so he's like wow, likeobviously I'm going through this
(05:58):
like actively, like what am Iactually meaning?
And my poor husband, on theother end, he's like it feels
like you've been holding this inand like you're being a little
passive, aggressive, and I waslike no, I'm just realizing it.
I'm really upset, you know, andso sometimes when we start
(06:20):
talking we just feel conflictand we're not really actually
sure what we mean.
So now I can playfully, youknow, say like, are you done
with your love affair with AIand you're going to focus on me
and my needs?
But I didn't know that's what Imeant when I started talking.
I just kind of knew there was aproblem going on and so,
(06:44):
because I wasn't clear on thedirection of what I was trying
to communicate like what I meantto communicate there was a
whole bunch of miscommunicationhappening in our conversation
because I just I didn't know yetwhat I actually meant.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I think this happens so, so often, especially
probably more often in marriedcouples who have been married
for many years and have kids,and we have busy lives and lots
of things, and I think it'ssometimes in my case.
My husband will start tellingme something and I have to be
like I have no idea what you'retalking about, because he thinks
that he has already conveyedsome of this to me and he hasn't
(07:21):
, and so it's kind of the samein that.
Right, what he's meaning totell me about is not connecting,
because he didn't start fromthe very beginning, or me maybe
saying something in a way, youknow, being frustrated over
something little when it has amuch deeper meaning, like you
just said.
Right, so how do we youmentioned earlier this is a true
(07:43):
fault of mine too is respondingthrough reaction instead of
thoughtfully responding.
What kind of tips do you haveto help us as parents and to
help our kids to think throughwhat we really mean before we
start just throwing it all outthere?
Yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I did on the phone, my poor husband out there.
Yeah, like I did on the phone mypoor husband, yeah.
So one of the things issometimes especially, I think,
in our culture, because it's solike instant gratification based
and there's a lot ofunawareness we have with just
(08:23):
our habits, and I think one ofthe things we can do that is
really beneficial for us is toslow down and have some
boundaries around respondingwhen we notice ourselves maybe
getting a little agitated orupset or you know, like feeling
tension, letting that be like aa yellow light and helping us to
(08:44):
slow down and be like, okay, ifwe're in the middle of a
conversation that needs aresolution sometime soon not
urgent then it's like, hey, I'mstarting to feel some feelings.
I think I need to take a breakto figure out what I really want
, to communicate with you and beable to do it in a way that
(09:06):
respects you and so reallymodeling that self-regulation
and that awareness.
And for some of us, that aloneis a struggle, and where it
really starts is in somethingcalled metacognition, which is
thinking about your thinking,and this is where we step into
(09:29):
self-awareness and begin to seelike, okay, this thought leads
to this emotion and this emotionproduces this action and this
action gives me this result.
Do I really like this result.
And then working backwards,it's a whole thing that goes on
up here, sometimes in like asplit second, and then we're
(09:52):
just like with all the words,and so when we begin to notice
tension rising or feeling upsetagain, letting that be a yellow
light and determining like, okay, I'm feeling some feelings and
I want to respect you as aperson, and so I think maybe
(10:13):
maybe I just need like a minuteto breathe, or maybe I need to
take like a five, 10 minutebreak, or maybe a day break,
because this is a really touchysubject for me and I want to
navigate it well with you, right, and so doing that as a parent,
as a spouse, that can be reallyhelpful.
(10:34):
But also we need to like we getto be aware that our children
are going through this almostlike constantly, especially once
they get into these eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 ages, where they're
experiencing so many newfeelings that they've never had
before and they have, like nowords to describe them.
(10:55):
And they're super reactivebecause they've got all these
like hormones going throughtheir body, whether they're
growth hormones or pubertyhormones.
They're experiencing theinternal like narration and
story going on in their head.
It's a mess and being presentand helping them through that,
whereas we're adults and wemight be like you know what.
(11:16):
I need to go and take a breakbefore I can come back and walk
through this with you, but weget to be in that with them and
not fault them for this weirdfifth layer.
They have no idea of whatthey're trying to say or how to
describe it, because it's abrand new experience.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I love the visual of the yellow light.
I'm such a visual learner andthat's something that will stick
with me and definitely heareverything you're saying.
I'm a fast talker I haven'tnoticed already and I used to
actually be a news anchor and mydad would tell me slow down.
But to speak at a normal paceseems so slow to me.
(11:56):
But it's the same with reacting.
I talk fast and I react fastand I think about experiences
like that and it usually doesn'tserve me well, especially as a
parent and my oldest just turned16, which is so hard to believe
, but he is my personalitymirrored back at me.
(12:17):
We both like to have the lastword, we both react fast and
things like that.
And one of the best things thatthis podcast has done for me is
I have learned techniques likethat to slow down, to pause,
because once you say it, youcan't take it back.
It's out there, your words areout there.
Even if you apologize, even ifyou say something you didn't
mean, it's still out there,they've heard it, it's done.
(12:39):
And so the idea, the visual,the yellow light, of just
slowing down and pausing.
We don't have to react rightaway and most of the time, if we
do give ourselves that minutebreak or five minute break or
anything.
Like you said, our reaction isgoing to be completely different
, or our response, I guess Ishould say, is going to be
completely different.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think you know, obviouslythere are times in our life
where we need that gutturalresponse, like my kids in the
road, like I need to like dothat before I can even process
it.
So there are good things aboutreacting quickly, but most of
the situations that us quickthinkers or quick reactors find
ourselves in don't need thatkind of urgency and so giving
(13:23):
yourself a minute to pause.
You know, when you haveespecially like, little kids who
are having a tantrum, forexample, and you're like I got
to fix this now, right, becauseyou're in the grocery store and
people are staring, you knowwhat, you probably will never
see those people again.
Who cares what they think?
And we're going to show up.
(13:44):
Well, for my kid in this hardmoment I need to think about
okay, I'm going to breathe, I'mgoing to be intentional about
how I'm going to respond.
And breathing is actually ifyou're starting to feel like
tense or like activated, kind ofinto fight or flight mode, the
quickest way to tell your brainand nervous system to calm down
(14:07):
is through slow breathing, withyour exhale being longer than
your inhale, and that tells yournervous system hey, we're safe.
So then your brain doesn't kindof freak out on you and you're
able to make more logical,intentional decisions in a hard
moment and show up the way thatyou want to, for like when your
(14:30):
kiddo is having a hard time.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
All right, so we've talked about saying what we mean
, and then the whole other sideof this, like you said, is what
do they hear, which I haveconsidered this before.
But then also you said what dothey think we mean by it?
That's a whole, like you know.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
they think we mean by it.
That's a whole like you knowthat's just, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Let's dive into that.
You know, miscommunication isthe number one reason for
arguments and I think it allfalls in between these two holes
here, right, like what we'vesaid and what they hear.
So we obviously can't controlwhat happens in their brain or
what they hear.
What can we do?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think this is really, it'sreally powerful with our loved
ones, right, there's going to besome friends we have to
navigate this with and there's awhole host of strangers who
will never really understandwhat we mean, and there's only
so many hours in a day and onlyso much energy we have to pour
into helping other peopleunderstand us.
(15:34):
So to some degree, we just haveto let our words land where
they may and try to do betternext time.
But in these close connectedrelationships, understanding how
somebody else is wired in theirbrain especially our children,
if we have any neurodivergentlearners understanding how
(15:56):
they're wired and what makesthem tick and their values, is
going to really change what yousay, so that it lands well with
them and is interpreted in a waythat you meant it, and so it's
like wait, okay, so I want tosay this, but how are they going
(16:16):
to take this?
And so if I say it this way,they'll understand it better.
Sometimes talking like evenbefore the words come up takes a
lot of energy, and so thinkingabout communicating with our
kids in a way that lands withthem number one, I think as the
parent, it is our responsibilityto land our communication and
(16:39):
if that means I have to, as amom, like violate my personal
core values in order to landsomething for my child, then so
be it.
I get to turn myself inside outto see my child thrive.
Now, hopefully, I don't have todo that, but there's a
situation.
(17:00):
My oldest he is very likelogical, critical thinking.
He's just like the things hevalues are accuracy and
rightness.
And then here's me on the otherside, where I value intimacy
and perspective, and so I'm likelet's look at the big picture
(17:22):
and let's see what it could havemeant or what they could have
meant, or what this could meanfor us.
And he's like no, what does itexactly mean?
It doesn't exactly mean that,mom, because it exactly means
that we almost lost ourrelationship together over this.
What would happen in ourcommunication is he would do
(17:48):
something wrong because he's akid and I would say, hey, don't
punch your brother.
I didn't punch my brother andbecause he values accuracy, he
pushed his brother.
So in his mind he's upsetbecause I'm saying you did
something you didn't do.
But in my mind, withperspective, I've had to back up
(18:09):
and be like did youintentionally touch your brother
in a way to harm him yeah,that's not my favorite thing to
say.
And then he would go yes, yes,I did.
I'm like, okay, so let's lookat the heart situation here.
Oh, my gosh, sometimes, liketalking to my kid kid who is so
(18:30):
differently wired, I'm like Iwant to pull out my teeth
instead.
But it got so bad and so hardfor us because he was hearing
things I didn't mean and hewasn't hearing what I did mean,
and it got down to what he caredabout more.
Just, as a human, we all havedifferent core values.
(18:52):
None of them are necessarilywrong, we're just different.
And so what I had to end updoing in order to land my
communication for this rightness, justice, accuracy piece for
him was put to the side my, mydeep love of like connection and
(19:12):
wanting to understand andseeing the big picture of things
and get down to where he sawthe division.
Because what was happening is,you know let's go back to the
example Don't punch your brother, I didn't punch my brother,
(19:35):
brother, I didn't punch mybrother.
Okay, we would be entangled inthese arguments for so long and
it just was like you know, likehe's the same as me, like we're
both challengers, we both wantthe last word, like you and your
son, um.
And so we would get entangled inthese, these arguments, and
suddenly I would begin to getvery upset because the lesson
I'm trying to teach him getslost in all this noise, and it
ended up he wouldn't takeaccountability.
(19:57):
Now, accountability is a veryimportant value that I teach my
children, and so that was afight I wasn't willing to let go
of.
But I had to put aside the wayI was like trying to help him
take accountability for the wayhe would understand it.
And so that's what I'm talkingabout Turning myself inside out
(20:17):
to land my communication in away that my kid thinks and will
understand my meaning of it andit.
You know, obviously all of ourconversations are not like that.
We have a wonderfulrelationship now, he like
absolutely.
We absolutely adore each other,but there were times that it
was so, so difficult and sochallenging.
(20:41):
I would have rather gone to thedentist and have every single
one of my teeth pulled out thanhad those conversations because
our values were so different.
But again, one as the parent,it's my job to land the
communication in a way that hewill understand the meaning.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, that is so powerful and I think that when
you started I've been sayinglike him, saying I didn't punch
my brother.
I think a lot of us would justlook at that as being more
defiant instead of really kindof digging down into.
No, he's just speakinglogically, like what makes sense
, logically in his mind.
And my example is a little bitnot as intense as that.
(21:21):
But my oldest son, for thelongest time, if I would say he
has to do the dishes every day.
That's one of his jobs.
He has to do the dishes everyday.
It's not a surprise.
For a long time he would actlike it's a surprise, like he
hasn't done it every day formonths and it caused issues.
But whenever I would say, don'tforget, you need to do the
dishes, he took that as me beingupset with him and it took me a
(21:44):
long time to realize that thathe would think that I was
disappointed or mad orfrustrated.
Even if my tone was like, hey,babe, don't forget to do the
dishes, he's still hearing andinterpreting it differently than
what I was trying to say and soI've had to work on that.
And he still has to do thedishes.
I still have to remind him todo the dishes, but I try to say
and so I've had to work on that,and he still has to do the
dishes, I still have to remindhim to do the dishes, but I try
(22:05):
to say it, I try to be morecognizant of the way I say it.
Or even, like you know, ifyou're going to go to your
friends, don't forget.
You need to do this at somepoint before you go.
We good and you know, just, oreven like giving him a hug he's
a, very, he's a, he's a huggerand just showing him that I'm
just giving you a reminder, I'mnot frustrated, I'm not upset
(22:27):
with you in any way, shape orform and it.
But, like I said, for thelongest time I just took it as
him bucking me.
I'm not wanting to do thedishes, but he was taking it as
he wasn't doing enough I hewasn't pleasing me, I guess you
know, because I had to tell himto do it.
And I think if we don't stopand slow down, like you said,
and look at these differentlayers, we can really cause
(22:50):
rifts in our relationships.
And, like you said, I meancommunication is supposed to be
easy, but it's anything but.
Oh, yes, it's true, but yes,it's true.
Well, amanda, I think this hasbeen really, really great.
I love the layers, I love theyellow light visual aspect of
(23:11):
all of this.
Is there anything else beforewe are I know we're running out
of time Anything else that youwant to share with our families?
That has really been beneficialto you in building those
communication skills in yourkids.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
So I think again, slowing downand having meeting our kids at
their understanding, sounderstanding their age and
their stage and yourrelationship with them, so
thinking about you know all theway up to eight, nine years old,
(23:42):
right, your kid thinks you'reamazing and like you do
everything perfectly, even ifyou like apologize profusely
multiple times a day.
They're like yeah, you knoweverything.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I asked my eight year old and I was like do you think
?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I know everything.
He's like yeah, I was like, no,no, I don't, no, no, I don't.
But then there is this timeperiod of like nine to 11, 12,
where we're shifting from beingthis all amazing person who has
all the answers I like to callit the sage on the stage.
(24:17):
Now we're becoming the guide onthe side.
The guide on the side andapproaching our communication
with them in a much morecollaborative manner and
allowing them to feel the impactof their choices.
And I mean, I have.
I have boys, and I always thinkabout if I'm going to be real.
(24:42):
I don't want a mom calling meand a mom saying your son got my
daughter pregnant.
That's a big fear of mine,right.
And so I'm like, okay, if Idon't let them feel the impact
of their consequences.
Now, what am I setting them upfor down the line?
What am I setting them up fordown the line?
(25:03):
And so when they did you knowthey forget to bring their gi to
jujitsu, then they're the onenot in a gi, like, sorry, pal,
I'm not going.
Yeah, we live five minutes away, I'm not going back to get your
gi.
You, you should have done that.
Oh, I wanted to come out andrun with you.
I forgot my shoes.
You, you should have done that.
(25:23):
Oh, I wanted to come out andrun with you, I forgot my shoes.
Okay, well, there's glasspotentially in the parking lot.
You, that's just, that's not anoption.
And helping them, like standingin this position of guide on
the side and allowing them tofeel the weight of their choices
, whether they're big or small,is really setting them up for
responsibility as they'reheading into a stage where you
know they might be driving soonand you know, like giving them a
(25:48):
death machine that they can,they can drive and potentially
crash.
You know, giving them those thefeelings of the smaller
consequences, now in a saferenvironment, sets them up for
success down the line.
And so just really knowingwhere you're, what stage you're
at, you know, stage on the stage, guide on the side, or just
more of a collaborative, likefriend, parent, as they head
(26:10):
into their teen years.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And it is.
I think it's one of the hardestthings to do as a mom to let
them suffer the consequenceseven over little things.
The last thing we want to seeis for our kids to be sad or
embarrassed or concerned, right.
But like you said, if we jumpin and save the day every time
when they're at this pinnaclepoint of growing into teenagers
(26:33):
and ultimately adults, what'sgoing to happen when we're not
there to jump in and save theday?
So I think that that'sfantastic advice.
Amanda, this has been a reallygreat conversation and you have
lots of great resources forfamilies, particularly about
homeschooling, but justparenting in general, and so I
think you have an event comingup, too that tell us a little
bit about that.
(26:54):
I'm sure some people would beinterested.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So at the beginning of April I'm hosting the Calm
the Chaos event and this isspecifically for homeschool moms
and I'll actually be divinginto more of this topic of
communication, also of ourexperience as homeschool moms
how all that noise inside of ourhead, the chaos inside of our
(27:18):
head, can impact us.
The chaos of not having aroutine, how that can impact our
family and then this relationalchaos.
So that's the focus of theevent really dealing with those
three areas of chaos as ahomeschool mom.
So we'll talk more aboutcommunication in that and it's a
free event.
I would love to have you there.
(27:38):
You'll learn a ton, so comeprepared to take notes Lots.
I'm very practical in the sameway when I host events and we'll
really begin to tame that chaosas homeschool moms.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh, we all need that in our lives, right?
Everybody needs that in theirlives, for sure.
A little bit more calm, alittle less chaos.
I love it.
Well, this has been fantastic.
We will link to that eventregistration page.
If you're listening to thisthrough one of the podcast
players, it'll be in the shownotes.
If you're seeing this on socialmedia, just check the post
either above or below.
In the comments You'll find thelinks for all of those things
(28:14):
that you need to be able toconnect with Amanda, learn more
about her and sign up for thatevent.
So again, thank you for yourtime.
This has really been great,thank you.
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green and today'sguest is Amanda Sheckenberger.
Amanda helps moms calm thechaos and confidently homeschool
.
She leverages her ownexperience as a homeschool kid
and now a mother of four boysinside of her program at
homeschoolfamilylegacycom, whereshe coaches moms to blend
rigorous academics with joyful,connected learning.
(00:23):
Amanda, we're so grateful tohave you here today.
Thanks for being here.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Elizabeth, I'm so excited.
When you reached out and toldme about your resources, I was
like this is something we'vebeen looking for, so I'm so
happy to meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
That's awesome.
I'm glad that you were able touse the resources, and I just
realized just now that you havefour boys.
I have two boys of my own, so,fellow boy mom, here I get it,
and I think that this is aconversation that we're going to
have today applies to all moms,boys and girls, homeschool, not
homeschool, all the things, butwhat more could we want than to
, you know, encourage our kidsto love learning, to have fun
(00:59):
learning, be lifelong learners,and what we really want to talk
about today is to be goodcommunicators, right.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, oh, my goodness .
As a kind of an only kid for along time with a deaf dad,
communication was something Ihad to really work hard on
learning how to do.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Oh, I'm sure, and everybody does in different ways
, whether it's a challenge likethat, or maybe you're in a
family with lots of kids and youdon't get an opportunity to
speak up enough.
So what we do, you know, wetalk about building
communication skills andconfidence in our kids so that
they can use their voices tomake the world a better place,
and so that's a very broad thing, right.
(01:41):
But what we want to talk todayabout there, it's not just as
simple as teaching them how tospeak up, right, there are lots
of different levels and layersof communication, and so let's
just kind of dive into that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's some kids that you don't
have to teach to speak up, likesome of mine.
I'm like, can you stop speaking, right, and help them slow down
and listen?
And so the learning to speak upand the learning to listen well
is I like to kind of call it alittle bit of a dance.
Communication is a little bitof a dance, right, like I'm
(02:14):
leaning in and listening andunderstanding, but also here's
my thoughts and feelings, right.
And so in my journey of growingup with a deaf dad and kind of
being an only for most of mylife, I just, for whatever
reason and I'm also likepersonality wise, I'm a bit of a
(02:35):
challenger, I'm a quick thinkerand sometimes I react before I
really have time to like thinkabout what I'm actually trying
to communicate, and so it's veryguttural and feelings forward,
and so I had to really slow downas as a homeschool mom, I'm
(02:57):
just as a person in order tocommunicate effectively, because
it's not just about the wordsI'm saying, it's about the other
person and the words they'resaying and meaning.
And so one of the things thathas really helped me when it
comes to communication,elizabeth, is learning about the
(03:17):
layers of communication andwith part of my journey as a mom
.
I read a book called Listen Likeyou Mean it, and the author her
name is Zymina Vengochega orsomething she's got a name
that's more abstract than mineand she talks about there being
(03:42):
four layers to communication,and I want to just share them
with you briefly and we can kindof talk about them a little bit
more in depth.
But she talks about the fourlayers being what you mean to
say, what you actually say, whatthe other person hears and then
(04:03):
what the listener thinks youmean by that.
And so, as you think back overa recent communication with
somebody maybe a heated one,right?
Did you get out what you meantto say and even so, did the
person listening understand yourmeaning behind it?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's amazing.
I have never heard it brokendown like that and that is like
the perfect summary of whatcommunication is and also, like
you said, what leads to heatedcommunication, right, whenever.
We don't understand all four ofthose layers, so let's start
with what the first one was,what you mean to say, right?
(04:43):
Okay, so how?
How give us some examples ofwhat we mean to say and what we
actually say, and how?
That doesn't always match up.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, sometimes, and so from an adult perspective
right Cause there's even a Ithink there's a fifth layer when
we're talking about childrenbut, like from an adult
perspective, there are thingsthat I haven't necessarily
thought through.
For example, a couple of weeksago I'm on the phone with my
husband and I'm having arealization that he got involved
(05:14):
in like this little sideproject with, like ChatGPT, and
he's like diving into it.
And I'm talking to him, I'mlike, but you're, you didn't
call me today and you haven'tcalled me for the last few weeks
, and and like you're notchecking in on me, and I feel
neglected.
And I'm kind of in the moment,going through these layers of
(05:35):
what I actually mean to say is Ifeel like you've developed a
relationship with chat GPT andchoosing it over me and I we
laugh.
But it's real, it's real.
I was like you are having alove affair with chat GPT.
What about me?
Um, and so he's like wow, likeobviously I'm going through this
(05:58):
like actively, like what am Iactually meaning?
And my poor husband, on theother end, he's like it feels
like you've been holding this inand like you're being a little
passive, aggressive, and I waslike no, I'm just realizing it.
I'm really upset, you know, andso sometimes when we start
(06:20):
talking we just feel conflictand we're not really actually
sure what we mean.
So now I can playfully, youknow, say like, are you done
with your love affair with AIand you're going to focus on me
and my needs?
But I didn't know that's what Imeant when I started talking.
I just kind of knew there was aproblem going on and so,
(06:44):
because I wasn't clear on thedirection of what I was trying
to communicate like what I meantto communicate there was a
whole bunch of miscommunicationhappening in our conversation
because I just I didn't know yetwhat I actually meant.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I think this happens so, so often, especially
probably more often in marriedcouples who have been married
for many years and have kids,and we have busy lives and lots
of things, and I think it'ssometimes in my case.
My husband will start tellingme something and I have to be
like I have no idea what you'retalking about, because he thinks
that he has already conveyedsome of this to me and he hasn't
(07:21):
, and so it's kind of the samein that.
Right, what he's meaning totell me about is not connecting,
because he didn't start fromthe very beginning, or me maybe
saying something in a way, youknow, being frustrated over
something little when it has amuch deeper meaning, like you
just said.
Right, so how do we youmentioned earlier this is a true
(07:43):
fault of mine too is respondingthrough reaction instead of
thoughtfully responding.
What kind of tips do you haveto help us as parents and to
help our kids to think throughwhat we really mean before we
start just throwing it all outthere?
Yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I did on the phone, my poor husband out there.
Yeah, like I did on the phone mypoor husband, yeah.
So one of the things issometimes especially, I think,
in our culture, because it's solike instant gratification based
and there's a lot ofunawareness we have with just
(08:23):
our habits, and I think one ofthe things we can do that is
really beneficial for us is toslow down and have some
boundaries around respondingwhen we notice ourselves maybe
getting a little agitated orupset or you know, like feeling
tension, letting that be like aa yellow light and helping us to
(08:44):
slow down and be like, okay, ifwe're in the middle of a
conversation that needs aresolution sometime soon not
urgent then it's like, hey, I'mstarting to feel some feelings.
I think I need to take a breakto figure out what I really want
, to communicate with you and beable to do it in a way that
(09:06):
respects you and so reallymodeling that self-regulation
and that awareness.
And for some of us, that aloneis a struggle, and where it
really starts is in somethingcalled metacognition, which is
thinking about your thinking,and this is where we step into
(09:29):
self-awareness and begin to seelike, okay, this thought leads
to this emotion and this emotionproduces this action and this
action gives me this result.
Do I really like this result.
And then working backwards,it's a whole thing that goes on
up here, sometimes in like asplit second, and then we're
(09:52):
just like with all the words,and so when we begin to notice
tension rising or feeling upsetagain, letting that be a yellow
light and determining like, okay, I'm feeling some feelings and
I want to respect you as aperson, and so I think maybe
(10:13):
maybe I just need like a minuteto breathe, or maybe I need to
take like a five, 10 minutebreak, or maybe a day break,
because this is a really touchysubject for me and I want to
navigate it well with you, right, and so doing that as a parent,
as a spouse, that can be reallyhelpful.
(10:34):
But also we need to like we getto be aware that our children
are going through this almostlike constantly, especially once
they get into these eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 ages, where they're
experiencing so many newfeelings that they've never had
before and they have, like nowords to describe them.
(10:55):
And they're super reactivebecause they've got all these
like hormones going throughtheir body, whether they're
growth hormones or pubertyhormones.
They're experiencing theinternal like narration and
story going on in their head.
It's a mess and being presentand helping them through that,
whereas we're adults and wemight be like you know what.
(11:16):
I need to go and take a breakbefore I can come back and walk
through this with you, but weget to be in that with them and
not fault them for this weirdfifth layer.
They have no idea of whatthey're trying to say or how to
describe it, because it's abrand new experience.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I love the visual of the yellow light.
I'm such a visual learner andthat's something that will stick
with me and definitely heareverything you're saying.
I'm a fast talker I haven'tnoticed already and I used to
actually be a news anchor and mydad would tell me slow down.
But to speak at a normal paceseems so slow to me.
(11:56):
But it's the same with reacting.
I talk fast and I react fastand I think about experiences
like that and it usually doesn'tserve me well, especially as a
parent and my oldest just turned16, which is so hard to believe
, but he is my personalitymirrored back at me.
(12:17):
We both like to have the lastword, we both react fast and
things like that.
And one of the best things thatthis podcast has done for me is
I have learned techniques likethat to slow down, to pause,
because once you say it, youcan't take it back.
It's out there, your words areout there.
Even if you apologize, even ifyou say something you didn't
mean, it's still out there,they've heard it, it's done.
(12:39):
And so the idea, the visual,the yellow light, of just
slowing down and pausing.
We don't have to react rightaway and most of the time, if we
do give ourselves that minutebreak or five minute break or
anything.
Like you said, our reaction isgoing to be completely different
, or our response, I guess Ishould say, is going to be
completely different.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think you know, obviouslythere are times in our life
where we need that gutturalresponse, like my kids in the
road, like I need to like dothat before I can even process
it.
So there are good things aboutreacting quickly, but most of
the situations that us quickthinkers or quick reactors find
ourselves in don't need thatkind of urgency and so giving
(13:23):
yourself a minute to pause.
You know, when you haveespecially like, little kids who
are having a tantrum, forexample, and you're like I got
to fix this now, right, becauseyou're in the grocery store and
people are staring, you knowwhat, you probably will never
see those people again.
Who cares what they think?
And we're going to show up.
(13:44):
Well, for my kid in this hardmoment I need to think about
okay, I'm going to breathe, I'mgoing to be intentional about
how I'm going to respond.
And breathing is actually ifyou're starting to feel like
tense or like activated, kind ofinto fight or flight mode, the
quickest way to tell your brainand nervous system to calm down
(14:07):
is through slow breathing, withyour exhale being longer than
your inhale, and that tells yournervous system hey, we're safe.
So then your brain doesn't kindof freak out on you and you're
able to make more logical,intentional decisions in a hard
moment and show up the way thatyou want to, for like when your
(14:30):
kiddo is having a hard time.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
All right, so we've talked about saying what we mean
, and then the whole other sideof this, like you said, is what
do they hear, which I haveconsidered this before.
But then also you said what dothey think we mean by it?
That's a whole, like you know.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
they think we mean by it.
That's a whole like you knowthat's just, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Let's dive into that.
You know, miscommunication isthe number one reason for
arguments and I think it allfalls in between these two holes
here, right, like what we'vesaid and what they hear.
So we obviously can't controlwhat happens in their brain or
what they hear.
What can we do?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think this is really, it'sreally powerful with our loved
ones, right, there's going to besome friends we have to
navigate this with and there's awhole host of strangers who
will never really understandwhat we mean, and there's only
so many hours in a day and onlyso much energy we have to pour
into helping other peopleunderstand us.
(15:34):
So to some degree, we just haveto let our words land where
they may and try to do betternext time.
But in these close connectedrelationships, understanding how
somebody else is wired in theirbrain especially our children,
if we have any neurodivergentlearners understanding how
(15:56):
they're wired and what makesthem tick and their values, is
going to really change what yousay, so that it lands well with
them and is interpreted in a waythat you meant it, and so it's
like wait, okay, so I want tosay this, but how are they going
(16:16):
to take this?
And so if I say it this way,they'll understand it better.
Sometimes talking like evenbefore the words come up takes a
lot of energy, and so thinkingabout communicating with our
kids in a way that lands withthem number one, I think as the
parent, it is our responsibilityto land our communication and
(16:39):
if that means I have to, as amom, like violate my personal
core values in order to landsomething for my child, then so
be it.
I get to turn myself inside outto see my child thrive.
Now, hopefully, I don't have todo that, but there's a
situation.
(17:00):
My oldest he is very likelogical, critical thinking.
He's just like the things hevalues are accuracy and
rightness.
And then here's me on the otherside, where I value intimacy
and perspective, and so I'm likelet's look at the big picture
(17:22):
and let's see what it could havemeant or what they could have
meant, or what this could meanfor us.
And he's like no, what does itexactly mean?
It doesn't exactly mean that,mom, because it exactly means
that we almost lost ourrelationship together over this.
What would happen in ourcommunication is he would do
(17:48):
something wrong because he's akid and I would say, hey, don't
punch your brother.
I didn't punch my brother andbecause he values accuracy, he
pushed his brother.
So in his mind he's upsetbecause I'm saying you did
something you didn't do.
But in my mind, withperspective, I've had to back up
(18:09):
and be like did youintentionally touch your brother
in a way to harm him yeah,that's not my favorite thing to
say.
And then he would go yes, yes,I did.
I'm like, okay, so let's lookat the heart situation here.
Oh, my gosh, sometimes, liketalking to my kid kid who is so
(18:30):
differently wired, I'm like Iwant to pull out my teeth
instead.
But it got so bad and so hardfor us because he was hearing
things I didn't mean and hewasn't hearing what I did mean,
and it got down to what he caredabout more.
Just, as a human, we all havedifferent core values.
(18:52):
None of them are necessarilywrong, we're just different.
And so what I had to end updoing in order to land my
communication for this rightness, justice, accuracy piece for
him was put to the side my, mydeep love of like connection and
(19:12):
wanting to understand andseeing the big picture of things
and get down to where he sawthe division.
Because what was happening is,you know let's go back to the
example Don't punch your brother, I didn't punch my brother,
(19:35):
brother, I didn't punch mybrother.
Okay, we would be entangled inthese arguments for so long and
it just was like you know, likehe's the same as me, like we're
both challengers, we both wantthe last word, like you and your
son, um.
And so we would get entangled inthese, these arguments, and
suddenly I would begin to getvery upset because the lesson
I'm trying to teach him getslost in all this noise, and it
ended up he wouldn't takeaccountability.
(19:57):
Now, accountability is a veryimportant value that I teach my
children, and so that was afight I wasn't willing to let go
of.
But I had to put aside the wayI was like trying to help him
take accountability for the wayhe would understand it.
And so that's what I'm talkingabout Turning myself inside out
(20:17):
to land my communication in away that my kid thinks and will
understand my meaning of it andit.
You know, obviously all of ourconversations are not like that.
We have a wonderfulrelationship now, he like
absolutely.
We absolutely adore each other,but there were times that it
was so, so difficult and sochallenging.
(20:41):
I would have rather gone to thedentist and have every single
one of my teeth pulled out thanhad those conversations because
our values were so different.
But again, one as the parent,it's my job to land the
communication in a way that hewill understand the meaning.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, that is so powerful and I think that when
you started I've been sayinglike him, saying I didn't punch
my brother.
I think a lot of us would justlook at that as being more
defiant instead of really kindof digging down into.
No, he's just speakinglogically, like what makes sense
, logically in his mind.
And my example is a little bitnot as intense as that.
(21:21):
But my oldest son, for thelongest time, if I would say he
has to do the dishes every day.
That's one of his jobs.
He has to do the dishes everyday.
It's not a surprise.
For a long time he would actlike it's a surprise, like he
hasn't done it every day formonths and it caused issues.
But whenever I would say, don'tforget, you need to do the
dishes, he took that as me beingupset with him and it took me a
(21:44):
long time to realize that thathe would think that I was
disappointed or mad orfrustrated.
Even if my tone was like, hey,babe, don't forget to do the
dishes, he's still hearing andinterpreting it differently than
what I was trying to say and soI've had to work on that.
And he still has to do thedishes.
I still have to remind him todo the dishes, but I try to say
and so I've had to work on that,and he still has to do the
dishes, I still have to remindhim to do the dishes, but I try
(22:05):
to say it, I try to be morecognizant of the way I say it.
Or even, like you know, ifyou're going to go to your
friends, don't forget.
You need to do this at somepoint before you go.
We good and you know, just, oreven like giving him a hug he's
a, very, he's a, he's a huggerand just showing him that I'm
just giving you a reminder, I'mnot frustrated, I'm not upset
(22:27):
with you in any way, shape orform and it.
But, like I said, for thelongest time I just took it as
him bucking me.
I'm not wanting to do thedishes, but he was taking it as
he wasn't doing enough I hewasn't pleasing me, I guess you
know, because I had to tell himto do it.
And I think if we don't stopand slow down, like you said,
and look at these differentlayers, we can really cause
(22:50):
rifts in our relationships.
And, like you said, I meancommunication is supposed to be
easy, but it's anything but.
Oh, yes, it's true, but yes,it's true.
Well, amanda, I think this hasbeen really, really great.
I love the layers, I love theyellow light visual aspect of
(23:11):
all of this.
Is there anything else beforewe are I know we're running out
of time Anything else that youwant to share with our families?
That has really been beneficialto you in building those
communication skills in yourkids.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
So I think again, slowing downand having meeting our kids at
their understanding, sounderstanding their age and
their stage and yourrelationship with them, so
thinking about you know all theway up to eight, nine years old,
(23:42):
right, your kid thinks you'reamazing and like you do
everything perfectly, even ifyou like apologize profusely
multiple times a day.
They're like yeah, you knoweverything.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I asked my eight year old and I was like do you think
?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I know everything.
He's like yeah, I was like, no,no, I don't, no, no, I don't.
But then there is this timeperiod of like nine to 11, 12,
where we're shifting from beingthis all amazing person who has
all the answers I like to callit the sage on the stage.
(24:17):
Now we're becoming the guide onthe side.
The guide on the side andapproaching our communication
with them in a much morecollaborative manner and
allowing them to feel the impactof their choices.
And I mean, I have.
I have boys, and I always thinkabout if I'm going to be real.
(24:42):
I don't want a mom calling meand a mom saying your son got my
daughter pregnant.
That's a big fear of mine,right.
And so I'm like, okay, if Idon't let them feel the impact
of their consequences.
Now, what am I setting them upfor down the line?
What am I setting them up fordown the line?
(25:03):
And so when they did you knowthey forget to bring their gi to
jujitsu, then they're the onenot in a gi, like, sorry, pal,
I'm not going.
Yeah, we live five minutes away, I'm not going back to get your
gi.
You, you should have done that.
Oh, I wanted to come out andrun with you.
I forgot my shoes.
You, you should have done that.
(25:23):
Oh, I wanted to come out andrun with you, I forgot my shoes.
Okay, well, there's glasspotentially in the parking lot.
You, that's just, that's not anoption.
And helping them, like standingin this position of guide on
the side and allowing them tofeel the weight of their choices
, whether they're big or small,is really setting them up for
responsibility as they'reheading into a stage where you
know they might be driving soonand you know, like giving them a
(25:48):
death machine that they can,they can drive and potentially
crash.
You know, giving them those thefeelings of the smaller
consequences, now in a saferenvironment, sets them up for
success down the line.
And so just really knowingwhere you're, what stage you're
at, you know, stage on the stage, guide on the side, or just
more of a collaborative, likefriend, parent, as they head
(26:10):
into their teen years.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And it is.
I think it's one of the hardestthings to do as a mom to let
them suffer the consequenceseven over little things.
The last thing we want to seeis for our kids to be sad or
embarrassed or concerned, right.
But like you said, if we jumpin and save the day every time
when they're at this pinnaclepoint of growing into teenagers
(26:33):
and ultimately adults, what'sgoing to happen when we're not
there to jump in and save theday?
So I think that that'sfantastic advice.
Amanda, this has been a reallygreat conversation and you have
lots of great resources forfamilies, particularly about
homeschooling, but justparenting in general, and so I
think you have an event comingup, too that tell us a little
bit about that.
(26:54):
I'm sure some people would beinterested.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So at the beginning of April I'm hosting the Calm
the Chaos event and this isspecifically for homeschool moms
and I'll actually be divinginto more of this topic of
communication, also of ourexperience as homeschool moms
how all that noise inside of ourhead, the chaos inside of our
(27:18):
head, can impact us.
The chaos of not having aroutine, how that can impact our
family and then this relationalchaos.
So that's the focus of theevent really dealing with those
three areas of chaos as ahomeschool mom.
So we'll talk more aboutcommunication in that and it's a
free event.
I would love to have you there.
(27:38):
You'll learn a ton, so comeprepared to take notes Lots.
I'm very practical in the sameway when I host events and we'll
really begin to tame that chaosas homeschool moms.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh, we all need that in our lives, right?
Everybody needs that in theirlives, for sure.
A little bit more calm, alittle less chaos.
I love it.
Well, this has been fantastic.
We will link to that eventregistration page.
If you're listening to thisthrough one of the podcast
players, it'll be in the shownotes.
If you're seeing this on socialmedia, just check the post
either above or below.
In the comments You'll find thelinks for all of those things
(28:14):
that you need to be able toconnect with Amanda, learn more
about her and sign up for thatevent.
So again, thank you for yourtime.
This has really been great,thank you.
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