Kim Hartrum from the National Alliance on Mental Illness South Carolina shares her personal journey with mental health challenges and how she now helps students recognize warning signs of mental illness and suicide. Through her lived experience with anxiety since childhood and a suicidal episode as an adult, Kim offers invaluable insights for parents on maintaining open communication with children about mental health.
• Anxiety in children often manifests as physical symptoms like stomachaches or resistance to attending school
• Young children can experience suicidal ideation - Kim's daughter asked "why she wanted to die" at just eight years old
• Mental health should be treated with the same urgency and normalization as physical health conditions
• Warning signs to watch for include withdrawal from activities, changes in sleep patterns, and extreme mood changes
• Resources available include NAMI support groups, school counselors, private therapists, and crisis lines
• Creating an environment where children feel comfortable sharing their feelings is crucial to early intervention
• Parents should learn their child's "red flags" and be prepared to act when multiple warning signs appear
• Isolation can be the most damaging aspect of mental health struggles
• Therapy can benefit children even before crisis points are reached to build coping skills
If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts, help is available 24/7 through the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling or texting 988.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green and have avery special guest with me today
.
Kim Hartram is here.
Kim is with the NationalAlliance on Mental Illness for
South Carolina, and we're hereto have a heavy conversation,
but a very important one, kim.
We're so glad to have you here.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
first and foremost, Thank you so much for having me.
I look forward to talking toyou about these things that our
kids are going through.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
So we know I mean, we grew up right, we were kids, we
were teenagers at one point weknow how challenging it can be
to go through those changes andto figure out who you are and
all of these things.
But it can be even harder forcertain people who really
struggle with mental health, andI know that we are hearing so
much more about this in today'sday and age and I'll be
(00:47):
interested to kind of get yourfeel on this.
Is it because it's more commonor we're just talking about it
more?
But, as a parent, I think oneof the biggest worries for me as
a parent is losing a child, butparticularly losing a child to
suicide.
And so, again, heavyconversation.
But that's what we're here totalk about today, because we
(01:08):
need to have this knowledge, weneed to be equipped with this so
that we can keep those lines ofcommunication open with our
kids.
So, kim, I mean just to kind ofdive right in why are you in
this role and why is this yourpath in life?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Okay, so I am a youth-centered coordinator.
I go to different schoolsthroughout counties in South
Carolina and I talk about thewarning signs of mental health
conditions and suicideprevention, and one of my job
requirements is actually to havelived experience with mental
illness.
So I use my own story to helpkids get a picture of what that
(01:45):
can look like if they see it intheir friends or in themselves,
so that they can get helpearlier than I did.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So tell us about your experience.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Okay.
So as an adult, I'm a formermiddle school English teacher
with a couple other grade levelsinvolved, but that was my
primary role.
I've always experienced severalmental health conditions.
The most prominent one for meis anxiety.
Every memory I have from theearliest points in my childhood
(02:18):
were covered in anxiety and theystill are.
But I've learned coping skillsto be able to lead a more
productive life.
So I didn't really have thelanguage, as you were saying.
Is it talked about more now?
And I think that it is.
I think that it's a good thingthat we're talking about it more
, because when I needed helpwhen I was younger, my mom was
(02:41):
also struggling, so she was veryfocused on getting well herself
and my dad was just kind oflike, hey, what's going on with
everyone?
So I didn't have the languageto really know what was going on
.
We didn't have the internet tosearch and see ourselves and
other people, so I just kind ofhad been winging it for 40 years
(03:07):
.
I became a middle school teacher, became a mom, kind of kept
quiet about it because my familydoesn't really discuss mental
illness very much, and my roleas a teacher serving 125
students a day role as a teacherserving 125 students a day.
My stress level and anxietycouldn't take it anymore.
(03:27):
So I started having breakdownsthat started with panic attacks.
It led to a serious manicepisode that came from
misadministered medication andjust some things that you know.
2020 hit all of us and someother things added up and I
found myself unable to teachgrocery shops, make eye contact
(03:53):
or function at all.
So I got some help.
I've been helped throughout theyears, but the help that I got
was more specific throughout theyears.
But the help that I got wasmore specific and started
joining a support group withNAMI, learning about other
(04:13):
people's struggles and kind offinding that fellowship, knowing
that you're not alone.
Going through this and that'swhat I try to get the kids to
understand is that we all havemental health and everybody's is
different.
It's on a spectrum and we cando things to make it great.
Sometimes, even if you know itcan still slip in and we need
extra help, and it's notsomething that you should be
(04:35):
ashamed of.
So when my kids were born andmy students were experiencing
mental health conditions and myown kids started showing signs
of them, I didn't want to bequiet about it anymore.
So once I got my footing backand became a functioning adult
again, which took a lot of time.
I found this opportunity withNAMI where I could actually
(04:55):
speak openly about what I'd beenthrough, and that's given me
the opportunity to be back in aclassroom, to be around students
, to let them know that it'sokay to not be okay and it's
just.
It's given me my purpose backtimes 10.
And I'm just really happy thatI'm able to support the students
(05:16):
in our area.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Absolutely A very needed resource, you know, for
all students and all people.
But let's go back to when yousaid as a child you had anxiety,
but you didn't know that's whatit was.
What does anxiety look like ina kid?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
And we all experience anxiety, nervousness.
I like to put the kids on thespot and say you know, hey, can
you come up here and finish thispresentation for me and you'll
see that, oh my gosh, what isshe expecting of me?
And I'm just giving them thatfeeling and that's normal, that
stage fright, that feeling thatyou have right before a test,
that kind of thing.
(05:54):
My anxiety was so extreme thatif I couldn't I mean as far back
as like three-year-old dancelessons if I couldn't see my mom
in the room, I couldn'tfunction, follow instructions.
She would follow the schoolbuses if I was on a field trip,
so that I knew that she wasnearby.
I'm still super clingy with myhusband and my children and as I
(06:18):
got older it became harder todo the normal things we do each
day, like go to the grocerystore.
Order to do the normal thingswe do each day, like go to the
grocery store.
With the sensitivity issuesthat I have and the concerns of
it's not even fear, it's justthe feeling of not.
I don't feel like I fit in thatspace.
So I would feel like I was inthe way.
(06:39):
Making eye contact withperfectly friendly people seemed
like I was in front of a firingsquad.
Contact with perfectly friendlypeople seemed like I was in
front of a firing squad.
Just everything has a level ofnervousness to it.
That's in my gut, it's in mynerve endings, and that's what I
felt as a child.
I just felt disconnected fromeveryone else who appeared to be
(07:00):
enjoying their life or handlingtheir challenges without that
extra piece always knocking atthe door saying you're not okay,
you're not going to be okay,kind of feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And so if we're seeing this in our own children
or thinking, oh, that does soundkind of like my own child or me
, you know.
But I know today we're reallykind of talking about our
children and keeping the linesof communication open, where do
we start?
I mean, how do we start to evengive them the language to
understand their feelings, sothat we can understand how
(07:37):
they're feeling?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
A lot of kids show it as tummy aches, not wanting to
go to school or participate inan activity, tummy aches not
wanting to go to school orparticipate in an activity
things that they even reallyenjoy, because they have such a
pull to not.
I don't want.
I don't like using the wordfear all the time, because it's
not necessarily as a fear, it'sjust a knowing that that doesn't
feel right.
So when I, when you see that, Iwould suggest being really open
(08:04):
to starting conversations thataren't super direct, like you
know, diving right into it, butjust kind of getting a feel of
where your child might be goingthrough, and then being open to
continue that conversation, lookfor those signs that could lead
to something more severe laterin life and start therapy early.
(08:26):
My oldest daughter asked me whenshe was eight why she wanted to
die at bedtime and I didn'trealize that children that young
could have suicidal ideation.
She has severe ADHD and othermental health conditions and it
was that kind of that was theturning point to saying okay,
(08:47):
let's slow this down, where isthis coming from?
Why is this happening andgetting help for her?
So she's 27.
She's doing well, she struggles, but she learned coping skills
to kind of change the channel sothat she wouldn't be so
interrupted by those thoughts.
But her ADHD and rejectionfeelings were like I'm not smart
(09:12):
, like they are, nobody likes me, the parents don't even like me
, I'm ugly, I should just bedead.
And she started that earlierthan age eight and it was pretty
devastating to know that kidsthat young can be hurting that
much.
And had she not spoken that outloud we wouldn't have known and
(09:33):
that would have put her furtherat risk for taking her life.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So what kind of questions can we stem?
How do you suggest that we dobroach If we're in the situation
where we have concerns but theyhaven't come to us with that
kind of information where we'relike this is a real issue?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
NAMI actually has some resources.
I don't have them with me righthere, but they have like
Tuesday conversations wherethere's some questions that you
ask just to keep that line ofcommunication open that you ask
just to make.
Keep that line of communicationopen and you can find that on
our website and among thousandsof other resources that are are
good for parents.
But keeping that communicationopen not not shaming them for
(10:17):
the way that they feel likeyou'll get over it tough enough.
And my dad tried to toughen upwith me for sports and things
like that.
I would be smacked in the facewith a baseball before I even
realized that I was in abaseball game because I was so
anxious about the situation Iwas in.
So toughen up isn't always thebest answer for that.
(10:39):
That they know that they cancome to you.
My kids all three of them havecome to me with a challenge this
week that that's more than Ifeel like they should be going
through, but I'm so happy thatthey feel comfortable enough to
still reach out and it's just anopen line of communication at
(11:01):
all times.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, I, it's so important and you know, I think
what you've been talking aboutis making me think about you
know, we as parents, we want tomake sure that our kids are okay
, right, so we monitor theirgrades, we take them to the
doctor to make sure that they'regrowing in the way that they
should.
But mental health is a hugeaspect of things and there's no
like, just wait, like I go tothe doctor.
(11:25):
Oh, you know, they can say likeyou're a little bit underweight
, maybe we need to add a littleprotein to your diet.
Like we don't have that when itcomes to mental health.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So, with mental health you're looking at, does
your child have a decent socialgroup?
Are those people within thesocial group the type of people
that they can get they can havea positive relationship with?
That's going to make their lifebetter and not worse.
Watching how they'resocializing, looking for those
(11:54):
kind of key fit in moments wherethey're not stressing out
because they're trying to have aconversation, they're not
feeling really overstressedbecause it's a sleepover and
they don't know how to act.
I mean, anxiousness does comewith new activities, but if you
see things over and over againand they seem to be getting
worse, like a child withdepression might look like they
(12:17):
just don't care about schoolanymore.
They just you know everythingis kind of a whatever.
But then you're looking forthings like are they not?
Are they sleeping the wholeweekend away?
Are they ignoring their friends?
Have they stopped eating?
Have they stopped sleeping?
I mean, whatever the extreme isthat's different from their
norm kind of gives you a signalthat something might be going on
(12:40):
that you know this is aspectrum, right, it's not.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
It's like every solution is not going to work
for every person.
But you were talking about,like anxiety and being so
anxious to go and participate inthings or do things.
If we have a kid that we feelis like that, is it recommended
that we encourage them to, youknow, gently, encourage them to
keep trying new things, becausewe do want them to be
well-rounded and all of that, oris it more recommended that we
(13:08):
step back and say this is maybejust a little bit more than I'm
nervous about this activity?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I think a little bit of both.
You want to encourage, to seeif they try it like it, want to
continue that activity with yoursupport.
But if you notice that it'staking a toll on them, I
wouldn't continue pushing themin that area.
But I also wouldn't stopactivities, because isolation is
(13:35):
the most damaging part of thewhole picture.
I can't speak on everyone butfor myself.
When I isolate, that's when Iknow that I'm headed back into a
downturn.
So it might not like, forinstance, the baseball with my
dad.
That might not have been mything, but a craft group might
(13:57):
have been better.
So finding what fits for thechild.
But if you see that it's justnot right for them and they're
not comfortable doing it, Iwouldn't push that too far.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, we don't want toshelter them so much that they
don't have experiences when itmight just be butterflies you
know might just be like you know.
Like you said, most people getnervous in new situations.
But if it's you know, obviouslywe want them to grow from that
and for it to benefit them, notbe a detriment to them.
Let's talk a little bit about.
I mean, like I said, suicide isone of and I have anxiety as
(14:33):
well.
So maybe not everybody worriesabout things like this like I do
.
Maybe it's my anxiety, maybeit's a mom thing I don't know,
cause I only have my livedexperience but as a mom of young
teens and I know suicide ratesare so high and it's just so
scary, besides, just likepraying about it and trying our
(14:56):
best to keep those lines ofcommunication open so our kids
know that they can always cometo us, what else can we do?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
In many schools you can find support through your
guidance office.
In the beginning.
That's where I learned thatthere was something different
about me, and then I wouldcontinue on with therapy.
Even if someone's not you don'tsee someone headed towards a
crisis, they can still benefitfrom therapy to learn coping
(15:25):
skills, to keep things fromhappening and change the way
your thought process is andthings like that, but always
making sure that you know thatwhat the next step is going to
be.
So if you have a child that'ssuper anxious or depressed and
guidance isn't the best helpfulthing that's happening at school
, then you're going to move onto therapy and then you know,
(15:47):
find a psychiatrist that fitsfor you and fits for your child.
So just keeping, just knowingwhat that next step is going to
be as you're going along.
I never had suicidal ideationand I think it's because my
anxiety was so high that she waslike, girl, we're not going to
do that, that's scary.
So I didn't have thatexperience until I was.
(16:12):
It was in 2022.
And I was a full, full adult atthis point, with full grown
children.
To have that experience andknow all the things I know.
I have a bachelor's degree.
I've worked with students.
I've monitored my own mentalhealth for all of these years.
To have that experience and notknow what to do during that
(16:35):
time scares me for our youngpeople, because I have the
background and I have theinformation to stay safe.
So for someone who experiencesthose feelings at a very young
age without the the you knowlifelong lessons that come with
it, um, we do need to keep aneye on our kids.
We definitely do.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And what if it's not like our child that we're
necessarily worried about?
Maybe it's our, one of ourkids' best friends?
You know, um.
You know what do we do in thosesituations?
How do we talk to our kidsabout supporting them and also
knowing when it's not okay tokeep secrets?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Right.
So in the presentation we havea slide about suicide prevention
and it's kind of like first aidto the student here's what
you're going to do if yourfriend is at risk.
Interstate to the studenthere's what you're going to do
if your friend is at risk and ittells them what to look for.
Like they're withdrawing, theyfeel like they're a burden, they
(17:34):
feel desperate or trapped, andthen it gives them the crisis
lines that they can text andcall 8988.
And they can text or call evenif there's not a crisis, so that
they can feel support fromother people that aren't right
involved in it.
But we also teach about having atrusted adult.
(17:55):
So you would be the trustedadult, probably for your child
and they would come to you totalk to you about something
going on with their friend.
That's when you would get theother parent involved and if the
parent's not receptive, thenthe school.
So that kind of taking avillage to raise a child,
because we often don't displaythe same things for the people
(18:17):
that we live with as we do ourfriends and confidants when
we're young.
So just making sure that you'reable to contact a parent or the
school if something was to bescary.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
And I know a lot of many of our listeners are
homeschooling families, so whatwould you suggest in that
scenario?
What would be their next step,beyond the parent, if their
child's not in a school thatthey can reach out to the
counselor?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I would reach out to a private therapist or if I'm in
a lot of schools that are lowincome.
So there's resources for peoplewho don't have great insurance
to get the couple ofpsychiatrists that we have in
the area.
It's very underserved.
So we do have places likeCatawba Mental Health where they
(19:05):
can talk to a counselor.
And when you go to Catawba it'snot like you're going there to
get medication.
You're going there, you receivean intake interview and then
you see a counselor severaltimes before any medication is
administered.
So there's group therapies.
(19:25):
There's different things thatyou can do there as well.
We also have and this might besomething for homeschooling
students who aren't around a lotof people all the time if they
are struggling NAMI okay.
So I'm with NAMI, the state,the state department, and then
locally we have NAMI PiedmontTri-County and they have support
(19:46):
groups every Tuesday night forteams.
They have a game night onFriday night.
So there is another place thatpeople can go to.
You know, be around peers thatmay be struggling as well, and
they're very active in York,chester and Lancaster County.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Okay, and this is is NAMI a national program or is it
just in South Carolina?
Okay, because if you'relistening to program, or is it
just in South?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Carolina.
Okay Cause if you're listeningto this and you're not in South
Carolina, then you'll haveaccess to this as well, just go
to NAMIorg or NAMI and then yourstate letters like SCorg, and
that'll take you to theresources for your region.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Okay, any other tips or you know, words of advice or
words of wisdom that you sharewith others, that you know to
help, just just to help usnavigate something like this.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
When I'm talking on the student level, I share my
experience in 2022, because itwas so unlikely that I would be
someone who would die by suicideand after the devastation that
swept me away and my family andfinding help again, I felt it
was important to share that ifyou ever feel that moment of not
(21:01):
going on any further.
I was in this room where I amright now and I had two ways to
end my life, and the finalquestion I had to ask myself was
which way one of these wayswill hurt my family less when
they find my body.
And in that moment, I had aglitch, which is a very good
(21:22):
glitch.
It was like whoa, we don't dothis, and I was very fortunate
to have that.
And what I want the students tounderstand when they see me is
that I'm making eye contact withthem, I'm making jokes, I drove
my own car there, I can do allof the things, and in that
moment, I never thought I coulddo that again and it was my
(21:43):
brain lying to me.
So for every student I talk tothere's been thousands in the
last year I just want them toremember the lady that made eye
contact and is still alive, sothat if they ever feel that that
happened in their life, thatthey know that there is
something to do beyond thispoint, this is not the end.
You can be at the very bottomof everything in your life and
(22:06):
still come back and live apurposeful life.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, and that's wonderful to hear and, I'm sure,
inspiring, you know, toespecially kids in this scenario
, but even just kids who don'treally struggle with mental
health.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Here's.
I have a note here from astudent.
I'm sorry I should have hadthis completely out.
So thank you for taking thetime to speak with us and for
the impact you had on me.
I'm struggling with my mentalhealth right now and you really
helped me to believe that I canovercome it.
I got home from school that dayand immediately asked my
parents if I could startspeaking to a therapist.
(22:41):
That was the first time I'dever reached out to anyone about
my mental health, so thank youfor giving me the courage that
you did, and I have tons ofthese and responses to
evaluations that were.
Kids never felt like they couldtalk about it and because
(23:01):
people like me are openlytalking about every detail of it
, they feel comfortable enoughto ask for help.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So wonderful, wonderful.
Well, one last question for you.
It let's well.
I have two different, twodifferent kinds of questions.
One is how likely are we to beimpacted by this in our lives?
Not necessarily have a child orsomebody we know commit suicide
, but have somebody reallyconsiderate that's close to us.
(23:28):
How likely is that to happen?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I don't have actual statistics on that, but I think
that pretty much almost all ofus.
Before I start the presentation, I ask kids how many people
know of someone with a mentalhealth condition and they start
listing off bipolarschizophrenia, depression, all
of the things that can reallytake people from our lives, and
(23:54):
a lot of them have experiencedit already with siblings that
are gone and parents that aregone, and I think that we're all
at risk for experiencing this.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, one last question for you, then.
Um, if we let's say, this isnot something maybe we've really
had conversations about withour kids, we just, you know, we
know it's out there, we preferjust to think, oh, that's,
that's not going to happen here.
My, my kids are fine.
Right, we've maybe never reallybroached these conversations or
made, uh, made them aware thatyou know that they can talk to
(24:26):
us about anything.
Um, how, how, what do you do if, like, we're kind of
backtracking on that, like notwith little kids, that we can.
You know, obviously we're notgoing to talk to little kids
about this, but you know what Imean.
Like we're, we're buildingthose blocks as we go as parents
so that they do feel trust inus and and can talk to us about
anything.
But what if we're like I got tobacktrack on this?
How can I bring this up with mykid?
(24:47):
How can we talk about thingslike this?
Do you have any tips foranybody?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
like that and I wish I had that printed off to share
with you.
But using the conversationstarters that we have at NAMI
are helpful ways to do that,sharing your own stories of
something that you've beenthrough that you know you
normally wouldn't share withthem, but let them know that
they're not alone, that you feltthat way at that same age.
(25:12):
And then, being a professional,there was times where I thought
you know, my daughter waslooking for attention or we
could just do this on our own.
But at 16, she became at riskfor suicide, beyond her ideas of
suicide.
She was hospitalized for it andI felt uncomfortable taking her
(25:35):
.
I worried about all of thethings.
How much is this going to cost?
We could do this at home, waitfor a therapist.
But I no longer have any ofthose concerns because it was.
She came out of the hospitalwith such a different
perspective and was able toreally progress further with her
(25:56):
plans, and you know what shehad going on in her life.
And had we made a differentdecision, I don't know if that
would have been the same outcome.
And you know most of theseconditions are lifelong journeys
that we're on.
So we need to, as a family,know your child's red flags and
(26:23):
I literally have a list of redflags for my husband to start
checking off if I'm not doingokay, but know them so that as
you see them, if you see one oryou see two, you're not too
concerned.
But if you're having aconversation with your child and
you're really digging as deepas you can, keep those red flags
handy so that you can make surethat you can be proactive about
it and you can step in therebefore the situation gets out of
(26:45):
hand.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
And I guess it's probably also really important
to to help them understand that.
You know, mental health is areal thing.
Just like somebody might havediabetes or somebody, you know
somebody might have anxiety.
Like it's not.
It's it's not like oh goodness,you know what I mean.
Like you, you have mentalhealth issues.
I mean, I think that we're inthe world today where that is
(27:11):
becoming much more known andaccepted, that it's okay to talk
about these things.
This is normal.
A lot of people feel thesethings and keeping it bottled up
is not going to help, but it'snot really any different than a
physical ailment, right?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
We actually do talk about mental health and physical
health are the same, and I useexamples like if you're having
an asthma attack, do you just goto bed for the weekend and hope
you feel better on Monday?
And they're like, no, you coulddie, you need to be able to
breathe.
And I'm like, right, so you goand you get the things that you
need to be able to breathe.
I said so.
If you're depressed, did youjust go to bed and hope that it
(27:43):
gets better?
And they're like, oh, okay.
And another example I use forstudents who think that kids are
looking for attention is thatif you've ever planned a
vacation, do you ever say youknow what else I need to pack
Strap throat and a stomach virus, because that's what I really
want to do is just be sick onthis vacation.
(28:03):
Like people don't choose whenthey're going to have an episode
with their mental illness,they're not looking for
attention to.
You know, I never packdepression with me when I'm
getting ready to go on vacation,but sometimes she shows up and
we've got to do what we got todo.
So getting the kids to see thatit is.
It's no more scary when takencare of as strep throat, ear
(28:28):
infection or an asthma attack,that they can see it as a
physical part of your.
Your brain is in your body, solet's take as good a care of our
brain as we do our lungs, youknow.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah Well, I think that's a fantastic note to end
on.
Kim, we really appreciate yousharing your story.
I know it's not easy to do, butreally appreciate that you have
taken this experience, thishorrible experience, and turned
it into something that ishelping so many kids and teens,
and that's just a really, reallywonderful thing.
I hate that you had to gothrough it, but I'm glad that
(29:03):
you are using it for thebetterment of the people around
you.
So we will make sure, if you'reif you're listening to this or
watching um one, we'll link toNAMI um in the show notes and in
the post wherever you'rewatching this video, so you can
click through find your state.
I'm going to be going to checkout those, uh, Tuesday
conversations.
Um, I think that's, you know,so valuable to have those things
in our back pocket, because wejust don't always know what to
(29:26):
say and the thing is we don'thave to figure it out by
ourselves.
There are resources out there,like you and like Nami, that
will help us.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Thank you so much for having me.
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green and have avery special guest with me today
.
Kim Hartram is here.
Kim is with the NationalAlliance on Mental Illness for
South Carolina, and we're hereto have a heavy conversation,
but a very important one, kim.
We're so glad to have you here.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
first and foremost, Thank you so much for having me.
I look forward to talking toyou about these things that our
kids are going through.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
So we know I mean, we grew up right, we were kids, we
were teenagers at one point weknow how challenging it can be
to go through those changes andto figure out who you are and
all of these things.
But it can be even harder forcertain people who really
struggle with mental health, andI know that we are hearing so
much more about this in today'sday and age and I'll be
(00:47):
interested to kind of get yourfeel on this.
Is it because it's more commonor we're just talking about it
more?
But, as a parent, I think oneof the biggest worries for me as
a parent is losing a child, butparticularly losing a child to
suicide.
And so, again, heavyconversation.
But that's what we're here totalk about today, because we
(01:08):
need to have this knowledge, weneed to be equipped with this so
that we can keep those lines ofcommunication open with our
kids.
So, kim, I mean just to kind ofdive right in why are you in
this role and why is this yourpath in life?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Okay, so I am a youth-centered coordinator.
I go to different schoolsthroughout counties in South
Carolina and I talk about thewarning signs of mental health
conditions and suicideprevention, and one of my job
requirements is actually to havelived experience with mental
illness.
So I use my own story to helpkids get a picture of what that
(01:45):
can look like if they see it intheir friends or in themselves,
so that they can get helpearlier than I did.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So tell us about your experience.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Okay.
So as an adult, I'm a formermiddle school English teacher
with a couple other grade levelsinvolved, but that was my
primary role.
I've always experienced severalmental health conditions.
The most prominent one for meis anxiety.
Every memory I have from theearliest points in my childhood
(02:18):
were covered in anxiety and theystill are.
But I've learned coping skillsto be able to lead a more
productive life.
So I didn't really have thelanguage, as you were saying.
Is it talked about more now?
And I think that it is.
I think that it's a good thingthat we're talking about it more
, because when I needed helpwhen I was younger, my mom was
(02:41):
also struggling, so she was veryfocused on getting well herself
and my dad was just kind oflike, hey, what's going on with
everyone?
So I didn't have the languageto really know what was going on
.
We didn't have the internet tosearch and see ourselves and
other people, so I just kind ofhad been winging it for 40 years
(03:07):
.
I became a middle school teacher, became a mom, kind of kept
quiet about it because my familydoesn't really discuss mental
illness very much, and my roleas a teacher serving 125
students a day role as a teacherserving 125 students a day.
My stress level and anxietycouldn't take it anymore.
(03:27):
So I started having breakdownsthat started with panic attacks.
It led to a serious manicepisode that came from
misadministered medication andjust some things that you know.
2020 hit all of us and someother things added up and I
found myself unable to teachgrocery shops, make eye contact
(03:53):
or function at all.
So I got some help.
I've been helped throughout theyears, but the help that I got
was more specific throughout theyears.
But the help that I got wasmore specific and started
joining a support group withNAMI, learning about other
(04:13):
people's struggles and kind offinding that fellowship, knowing
that you're not alone.
Going through this and that'swhat I try to get the kids to
understand is that we all havemental health and everybody's is
different.
It's on a spectrum and we cando things to make it great.
Sometimes, even if you know itcan still slip in and we need
extra help, and it's notsomething that you should be
(04:35):
ashamed of.
So when my kids were born andmy students were experiencing
mental health conditions and myown kids started showing signs
of them, I didn't want to bequiet about it anymore.
So once I got my footing backand became a functioning adult
again, which took a lot of time.
I found this opportunity withNAMI where I could actually
(04:55):
speak openly about what I'd beenthrough, and that's given me
the opportunity to be back in aclassroom, to be around students
, to let them know that it'sokay to not be okay and it's
just.
It's given me my purpose backtimes 10.
And I'm just really happy thatI'm able to support the students
(05:16):
in our area.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Absolutely A very needed resource, you know, for
all students and all people.
But let's go back to when yousaid as a child you had anxiety,
but you didn't know that's whatit was.
What does anxiety look like ina kid?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
And we all experience anxiety, nervousness.
I like to put the kids on thespot and say you know, hey, can
you come up here and finish thispresentation for me and you'll
see that, oh my gosh, what isshe expecting of me?
And I'm just giving them thatfeeling and that's normal, that
stage fright, that feeling thatyou have right before a test,
that kind of thing.
(05:54):
My anxiety was so extreme thatif I couldn't I mean as far back
as like three-year-old dancelessons if I couldn't see my mom
in the room, I couldn'tfunction, follow instructions.
She would follow the schoolbuses if I was on a field trip,
so that I knew that she wasnearby.
I'm still super clingy with myhusband and my children and as I
(06:18):
got older it became harder todo the normal things we do each
day, like go to the grocerystore.
Order to do the normal thingswe do each day, like go to the
grocery store.
With the sensitivity issuesthat I have and the concerns of
it's not even fear, it's justthe feeling of not.
I don't feel like I fit in thatspace.
So I would feel like I was inthe way.
(06:39):
Making eye contact withperfectly friendly people seemed
like I was in front of a firingsquad.
Contact with perfectly friendlypeople seemed like I was in
front of a firing squad.
Just everything has a level ofnervousness to it.
That's in my gut, it's in mynerve endings, and that's what I
felt as a child.
I just felt disconnected fromeveryone else who appeared to be
(07:00):
enjoying their life or handlingtheir challenges without that
extra piece always knocking atthe door saying you're not okay,
you're not going to be okay,kind of feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And so if we're seeing this in our own children
or thinking, oh, that does soundkind of like my own child or me
, you know.
But I know today we're reallykind of talking about our
children and keeping the linesof communication open, where do
we start?
I mean, how do we start to evengive them the language to
understand their feelings, sothat we can understand how
(07:37):
they're feeling?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
A lot of kids show it as tummy aches, not wanting to
go to school or participate inan activity, tummy aches not
wanting to go to school orparticipate in an activity
things that they even reallyenjoy, because they have such a
pull to not.
I don't want.
I don't like using the wordfear all the time, because it's
not necessarily as a fear, it'sjust a knowing that that doesn't
feel right.
So when I, when you see that, Iwould suggest being really open
(08:04):
to starting conversations thataren't super direct, like you
know, diving right into it, butjust kind of getting a feel of
where your child might be goingthrough, and then being open to
continue that conversation, lookfor those signs that could lead
to something more severe laterin life and start therapy early.
(08:26):
My oldest daughter asked me whenshe was eight why she wanted to
die at bedtime and I didn'trealize that children that young
could have suicidal ideation.
She has severe ADHD and othermental health conditions and it
was that kind of that was theturning point to saying okay,
(08:47):
let's slow this down, where isthis coming from?
Why is this happening andgetting help for her?
So she's 27.
She's doing well, she struggles, but she learned coping skills
to kind of change the channel sothat she wouldn't be so
interrupted by those thoughts.
But her ADHD and rejectionfeelings were like I'm not smart
(09:12):
, like they are, nobody likes me, the parents don't even like me
, I'm ugly, I should just bedead.
And she started that earlierthan age eight and it was pretty
devastating to know that kidsthat young can be hurting that
much.
And had she not spoken that outloud we wouldn't have known and
(09:33):
that would have put her furtherat risk for taking her life.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
So what kind of questions can we stem?
How do you suggest that we dobroach If we're in the situation
where we have concerns but theyhaven't come to us with that
kind of information where we'relike this is a real issue?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
NAMI actually has some resources.
I don't have them with me righthere, but they have like
Tuesday conversations wherethere's some questions that you
ask just to keep that line ofcommunication open that you ask
just to make.
Keep that line of communicationopen and you can find that on
our website and among thousandsof other resources that are are
good for parents.
But keeping that communicationopen not not shaming them for
(10:17):
the way that they feel likeyou'll get over it tough enough.
And my dad tried to toughen upwith me for sports and things
like that.
I would be smacked in the facewith a baseball before I even
realized that I was in abaseball game because I was so
anxious about the situation Iwas in.
So toughen up isn't always thebest answer for that.
(10:39):
That they know that they cancome to you.
My kids all three of them havecome to me with a challenge this
week that that's more than Ifeel like they should be going
through, but I'm so happy thatthey feel comfortable enough to
still reach out and it's just anopen line of communication at
(11:01):
all times.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, I, it's so important and you know, I think
what you've been talking aboutis making me think about you
know, we as parents, we want tomake sure that our kids are okay
, right, so we monitor theirgrades, we take them to the
doctor to make sure that they'regrowing in the way that they
should.
But mental health is a hugeaspect of things and there's no
like, just wait, like I go tothe doctor.
(11:25):
Oh, you know, they can say likeyou're a little bit underweight
, maybe we need to add a littleprotein to your diet.
Like we don't have that when itcomes to mental health.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So, with mental health you're looking at, does
your child have a decent socialgroup?
Are those people within thesocial group the type of people
that they can get they can havea positive relationship with?
That's going to make their lifebetter and not worse.
Watching how they'resocializing, looking for those
(11:54):
kind of key fit in moments wherethey're not stressing out
because they're trying to have aconversation, they're not
feeling really overstressedbecause it's a sleepover and
they don't know how to act.
I mean, anxiousness does comewith new activities, but if you
see things over and over againand they seem to be getting
worse, like a child withdepression might look like they
(12:17):
just don't care about schoolanymore.
They just you know everythingis kind of a whatever.
But then you're looking forthings like are they not?
Are they sleeping the wholeweekend away?
Are they ignoring their friends?
Have they stopped eating?
Have they stopped sleeping?
I mean, whatever the extreme isthat's different from their
norm kind of gives you a signalthat something might be going on
(12:40):
that you know this is aspectrum, right, it's not.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
It's like every solution is not going to work
for every person.
But you were talking about,like anxiety and being so
anxious to go and participate inthings or do things.
If we have a kid that we feelis like that, is it recommended
that we encourage them to, youknow, gently, encourage them to
keep trying new things, becausewe do want them to be
well-rounded and all of that, oris it more recommended that we
(13:08):
step back and say this is maybejust a little bit more than I'm
nervous about this activity?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I think a little bit of both.
You want to encourage, to seeif they try it like it, want to
continue that activity with yoursupport.
But if you notice that it'staking a toll on them, I
wouldn't continue pushing themin that area.
But I also wouldn't stopactivities, because isolation is
(13:35):
the most damaging part of thewhole picture.
I can't speak on everyone butfor myself.
When I isolate, that's when Iknow that I'm headed back into a
downturn.
So it might not like, forinstance, the baseball with my
dad.
That might not have been mything, but a craft group might
(13:57):
have been better.
So finding what fits for thechild.
But if you see that it's justnot right for them and they're
not comfortable doing it, Iwouldn't push that too far.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, we don't want toshelter them so much that they
don't have experiences when itmight just be butterflies you
know might just be like you know.
Like you said, most people getnervous in new situations.
But if it's you know, obviouslywe want them to grow from that
and for it to benefit them, notbe a detriment to them.
Let's talk a little bit about.
I mean, like I said, suicide isone of and I have anxiety as
(14:33):
well.
So maybe not everybody worriesabout things like this like I do
.
Maybe it's my anxiety, maybeit's a mom thing I don't know,
cause I only have my livedexperience but as a mom of young
teens and I know suicide ratesare so high and it's just so
scary, besides, just likepraying about it and trying our
(14:56):
best to keep those lines ofcommunication open so our kids
know that they can always cometo us, what else can we do?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
In many schools you can find support through your
guidance office.
In the beginning.
That's where I learned thatthere was something different
about me, and then I wouldcontinue on with therapy.
Even if someone's not you don'tsee someone headed towards a
crisis, they can still benefitfrom therapy to learn coping
(15:25):
skills, to keep things fromhappening and change the way
your thought process is andthings like that, but always
making sure that you know thatwhat the next step is going to
be.
So if you have a child that'ssuper anxious or depressed and
guidance isn't the best helpfulthing that's happening at school
, then you're going to move onto therapy and then you know,
(15:47):
find a psychiatrist that fitsfor you and fits for your child.
So just keeping, just knowingwhat that next step is going to
be as you're going along.
I never had suicidal ideationand I think it's because my
anxiety was so high that she waslike, girl, we're not going to
do that, that's scary.
So I didn't have thatexperience until I was.
(16:12):
It was in 2022.
And I was a full, full adult atthis point, with full grown
children.
To have that experience andknow all the things I know.
I have a bachelor's degree.
I've worked with students.
I've monitored my own mentalhealth for all of these years.
To have that experience and notknow what to do during that
(16:35):
time scares me for our youngpeople, because I have the
background and I have theinformation to stay safe.
So for someone who experiencesthose feelings at a very young
age without the the you knowlifelong lessons that come with
it, um, we do need to keep aneye on our kids.
We definitely do.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And what if it's not like our child that we're
necessarily worried about?
Maybe it's our, one of ourkids' best friends?
You know, um.
You know what do we do in thosesituations?
How do we talk to our kidsabout supporting them and also
knowing when it's not okay tokeep secrets?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Right.
So in the presentation we havea slide about suicide prevention
and it's kind of like first aidto the student here's what
you're going to do if yourfriend is at risk.
Interstate to the studenthere's what you're going to do
if your friend is at risk and ittells them what to look for.
Like they're withdrawing, theyfeel like they're a burden, they
(17:34):
feel desperate or trapped, andthen it gives them the crisis
lines that they can text andcall 8988.
And they can text or call evenif there's not a crisis, so that
they can feel support fromother people that aren't right
involved in it.
But we also teach about having atrusted adult.
(17:55):
So you would be the trustedadult, probably for your child
and they would come to you totalk to you about something
going on with their friend.
That's when you would get theother parent involved and if the
parent's not receptive, thenthe school.
So that kind of taking avillage to raise a child,
because we often don't displaythe same things for the people
(18:17):
that we live with as we do ourfriends and confidants when
we're young.
So just making sure that you'reable to contact a parent or the
school if something was to bescary.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
And I know a lot of many of our listeners are
homeschooling families, so whatwould you suggest in that
scenario?
What would be their next step,beyond the parent, if their
child's not in a school thatthey can reach out to the
counselor?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I would reach out to a private therapist or if I'm in
a lot of schools that are lowincome.
So there's resources for peoplewho don't have great insurance
to get the couple ofpsychiatrists that we have in
the area.
It's very underserved.
So we do have places likeCatawba Mental Health where they
(19:05):
can talk to a counselor.
And when you go to Catawba it'snot like you're going there to
get medication.
You're going there, you receivean intake interview and then
you see a counselor severaltimes before any medication is
administered.
So there's group therapies.
(19:25):
There's different things thatyou can do there as well.
We also have and this might besomething for homeschooling
students who aren't around a lotof people all the time if they
are struggling NAMI okay.
So I'm with NAMI, the state,the state department, and then
locally we have NAMI PiedmontTri-County and they have support
(19:46):
groups every Tuesday night forteams.
They have a game night onFriday night.
So there is another place thatpeople can go to.
You know, be around peers thatmay be struggling as well, and
they're very active in York,chester and Lancaster County.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Okay, and this is is NAMI a national program or is it
just in South Carolina?
Okay, because if you'relistening to program, or is it
just in South?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Carolina.
Okay Cause if you're listeningto this and you're not in South
Carolina, then you'll haveaccess to this as well, just go
to NAMIorg or NAMI and then yourstate letters like SCorg, and
that'll take you to theresources for your region.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Okay, any other tips or you know, words of advice or
words of wisdom that you sharewith others, that you know to
help, just just to help usnavigate something like this.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
When I'm talking on the student level, I share my
experience in 2022, because itwas so unlikely that I would be
someone who would die by suicideand after the devastation that
swept me away and my family andfinding help again, I felt it
was important to share that ifyou ever feel that moment of not
(21:01):
going on any further.
I was in this room where I amright now and I had two ways to
end my life, and the finalquestion I had to ask myself was
which way one of these wayswill hurt my family less when
they find my body.
And in that moment, I had aglitch, which is a very good
(21:22):
glitch.
It was like whoa, we don't dothis, and I was very fortunate
to have that.
And what I want the students tounderstand when they see me is
that I'm making eye contact withthem, I'm making jokes, I drove
my own car there, I can do allof the things, and in that
moment, I never thought I coulddo that again and it was my
(21:43):
brain lying to me.
So for every student I talk tothere's been thousands in the
last year I just want them toremember the lady that made eye
contact and is still alive, sothat if they ever feel that that
happened in their life, thatthey know that there is
something to do beyond thispoint, this is not the end.
You can be at the very bottomof everything in your life and
(22:06):
still come back and live apurposeful life.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, and that's wonderful to hear and, I'm sure,
inspiring, you know, toespecially kids in this scenario
, but even just kids who don'treally struggle with mental
health.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Here's.
I have a note here from astudent.
I'm sorry I should have hadthis completely out.
So thank you for taking thetime to speak with us and for
the impact you had on me.
I'm struggling with my mentalhealth right now and you really
helped me to believe that I canovercome it.
I got home from school that dayand immediately asked my
parents if I could startspeaking to a therapist.
(22:41):
That was the first time I'dever reached out to anyone about
my mental health, so thank youfor giving me the courage that
you did, and I have tons ofthese and responses to
evaluations that were.
Kids never felt like they couldtalk about it and because
(23:01):
people like me are openlytalking about every detail of it
, they feel comfortable enoughto ask for help.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So wonderful, wonderful.
Well, one last question for you.
It let's well.
I have two different, twodifferent kinds of questions.
One is how likely are we to beimpacted by this in our lives?
Not necessarily have a child orsomebody we know commit suicide
, but have somebody reallyconsiderate that's close to us.
(23:28):
How likely is that to happen?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I don't have actual statistics on that, but I think
that pretty much almost all ofus.
Before I start the presentation, I ask kids how many people
know of someone with a mentalhealth condition and they start
listing off bipolarschizophrenia, depression, all
of the things that can reallytake people from our lives, and
(23:54):
a lot of them have experiencedit already with siblings that
are gone and parents that aregone, and I think that we're all
at risk for experiencing this.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, one last question for you, then.
Um, if we let's say, this isnot something maybe we've really
had conversations about withour kids, we just, you know, we
know it's out there, we preferjust to think, oh, that's,
that's not going to happen here.
My, my kids are fine.
Right, we've maybe never reallybroached these conversations or
made, uh, made them aware thatyou know that they can talk to
(24:26):
us about anything.
Um, how, how, what do you do if, like, we're kind of
backtracking on that, like notwith little kids, that we can.
You know, obviously we're notgoing to talk to little kids
about this, but you know what Imean.
Like we're, we're buildingthose blocks as we go as parents
so that they do feel trust inus and and can talk to us about
anything.
But what if we're like I got tobacktrack on this?
How can I bring this up with mykid?
(24:47):
How can we talk about thingslike this?
Do you have any tips foranybody?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
like that and I wish I had that printed off to share
with you.
But using the conversationstarters that we have at NAMI
are helpful ways to do that,sharing your own stories of
something that you've beenthrough that you know you
normally wouldn't share withthem, but let them know that
they're not alone, that you feltthat way at that same age.
(25:12):
And then, being a professional,there was times where I thought
you know, my daughter waslooking for attention or we
could just do this on our own.
But at 16, she became at riskfor suicide, beyond her ideas of
suicide.
She was hospitalized for it andI felt uncomfortable taking her
(25:35):
.
I worried about all of thethings.
How much is this going to cost?
We could do this at home, waitfor a therapist.
But I no longer have any ofthose concerns because it was.
She came out of the hospitalwith such a different
perspective and was able toreally progress further with her
(25:56):
plans, and you know what shehad going on in her life.
And had we made a differentdecision, I don't know if that
would have been the same outcome.
And you know most of theseconditions are lifelong journeys
that we're on.
So we need to, as a family,know your child's red flags and
(26:23):
I literally have a list of redflags for my husband to start
checking off if I'm not doingokay, but know them so that as
you see them, if you see one oryou see two, you're not too
concerned.
But if you're having aconversation with your child and
you're really digging as deepas you can, keep those red flags
handy so that you can make surethat you can be proactive about
it and you can step in therebefore the situation gets out of
(26:45):
hand.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
And I guess it's probably also really important
to to help them understand that.
You know, mental health is areal thing.
Just like somebody might havediabetes or somebody, you know
somebody might have anxiety.
Like it's not.
It's it's not like oh goodness,you know what I mean.
Like you, you have mentalhealth issues.
I mean, I think that we're inthe world today where that is
(27:11):
becoming much more known andaccepted, that it's okay to talk
about these things.
This is normal.
A lot of people feel thesethings and keeping it bottled up
is not going to help, but it'snot really any different than a
physical ailment, right?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
We actually do talk about mental health and physical
health are the same, and I useexamples like if you're having
an asthma attack, do you just goto bed for the weekend and hope
you feel better on Monday?
And they're like, no, you coulddie, you need to be able to
breathe.
And I'm like, right, so you goand you get the things that you
need to be able to breathe.
I said so.
If you're depressed, did youjust go to bed and hope that it
(27:43):
gets better?
And they're like, oh, okay.
And another example I use forstudents who think that kids are
looking for attention is thatif you've ever planned a
vacation, do you ever say youknow what else I need to pack
Strap throat and a stomach virus, because that's what I really
want to do is just be sick onthis vacation.
(28:03):
Like people don't choose whenthey're going to have an episode
with their mental illness,they're not looking for
attention to.
You know, I never packdepression with me when I'm
getting ready to go on vacation,but sometimes she shows up and
we've got to do what we got todo.
So getting the kids to see thatit is.
It's no more scary when takencare of as strep throat, ear
(28:28):
infection or an asthma attack,that they can see it as a
physical part of your.
Your brain is in your body, solet's take as good a care of our
brain as we do our lungs, youknow.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah Well, I think that's a fantastic note to end
on.
Kim, we really appreciate yousharing your story.
I know it's not easy to do, butreally appreciate that you have
taken this experience, thishorrible experience, and turned
it into something that ishelping so many kids and teens,
and that's just a really, reallywonderful thing.
I hate that you had to gothrough it, but I'm glad that
(29:03):
you are using it for thebetterment of the people around
you.
So we will make sure, if you'reif you're listening to this or
watching um one, we'll link toNAMI um in the show notes and in
the post wherever you'rewatching this video, so you can
click through find your state.
I'm going to be going to checkout those, uh, Tuesday
conversations.
Um, I think that's, you know,so valuable to have those things
in our back pocket, because wejust don't always know what to
(29:26):
say and the thing is we don'thave to figure it out by
ourselves.
There are resources out there,like you and like Nami, that
will help us.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Thank you so much for having me.
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