February 10, 2025 • 31 mins
How do we, as parents, caregivers, or simply as empathetic individuals, navigate the complex waters of gender identity and offer the right support to transgender children? Certified life coach, Tammy Plunkett, a mother to two transgender children, generously shares her personal experiences and expertise in this enlightening episode.
We unravel the intricate web of signs that may suggest a child identifies as transgender, and address the importance of distinguishing between gender expression and gender identity. We underscore the significance of distinguishing between a social and medical transition.
Tammy offers insightful advice on engaging with parents holding more traditional values, illuminating the path towards greater understanding and acceptance. Tune in to this crucial conversation and let us journey together towards better understanding and supporting gender diverse children.
Find Tammy on Facebook and Instagram, and download her free Defining Transgender eBook.
Get a free mini lesson plus 52 prompts so your kids can practice every week here!
Thanks for Listening to Speak Out, Stand Out
Like what you hear? We would love if you would rate and review our podcast so it can reach more families.
Also - grab our free mini lesson on impromptu speaking here. This is ideal for kids ages 6+.
Interested in checking out our Public Speaking & Debate courses? Find more here!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Speak Out Standout.
I'm Elizabeth Green and todayI'm here with Tammy Plunkett.
Tammy is a certified life coachand she helps parents, families
, organizations, caregivers,interacting with youth to
understand gender identity andto help create, grow and create
healthy, happy children,connected families and a
strengthened community.
(00:21):
Tammy, super excited to haveyou here and have this so
important conversation thatsometimes we're just not quite
sure how to address.
So thanks for taking your time.
First and foremost, I'm sohappy to be here.
So, tammy, you are a certifiedlife coach, but you focus on
gender identity.
How did you get to this pointwhere this is your, your main
focus, your main calling?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Having trans children is really what threw me into
this.
I learned by drinking from thefire hose of life.
My third.
I have four children.
My third child came out astransgender when he was 11 years
old, which is seven years agonow.
He's now 18 and off touniversity, which is a huge
(01:04):
change in our lives.
And then, about a year and ahalf ago, my youngest child
shared her truth with us thatshe's a trans girl.
So I learned a lot with my son,mitchell.
I took some university courses,I've led a peer led support
group for a while and I wrote abook about it on the social
(01:29):
transition.
When Rose came out my youngestchild, because of her age, we
embarked immediately in amedical transition.
So I have a lot of experiencein it and I have become
passionate about making surepeople understand what it means,
(01:49):
because a lot of times peoplewould ask me especially after
Mitchell came out, how canchildren be transgender?
They didn't understand whatgender identity was and they
would confuse it with sexualorientation, which is
understandable.
That's how the televisionportrays it.
A lot of times it's bunched inwith LGBTQ all in this one
(02:15):
acronym, but they're two veryseparate things and children can
absolutely be transgender.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Even when they're not to the point of having crushes
on boys or girls, right, likeyou said, it has nothing to do
with that at that stage.
So we could go with manydifferent ways with this
conversation.
I think what I would reallylove to talk about two things
One, the family that is goingthrough this right now and how
they can best support theirchild, and also just some
education for those of us whodon't have anyone close in our
(02:46):
lives that is transgender, andwe want to make sure we don't
say the wrong things or you knowand that kind of thing.
So two very differentconversations, but hopefully
they can kind of mesh together.
So, tammy, starting with the,let's start with the family that
might be going throughsomething like this, and it
sounds like you went into itwith quite the open mind and you
(03:06):
were ready to learn in order tosupport your kids.
But not everybody, you know, isgoing to go into it like that.
What is your very first advicewhenever a child comes to their
parents and says listen, here'swhat's going on?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, I don't know if I had an open mind.
Well, guess what?
My first advice is always totake a breath and take a beat.
It is so, so instinctual for usas parents to want to fix
everything and to want to getinto reactive mode and doing
mode.
And none of this needs to bedone immediately.
(03:41):
Of course, we want our childrento be safe and if they're in
distress or having mental healthissues suicidality is a theme
for this population those needto be addressed and decisions
don't need to be made fiveminutes after your child told
(04:02):
you that you know they feeldifferent than the gender that
was assigned to them when theywere born.
The best advice I always say islet your child drive the bus,
which can be terrifying whenit's an 11 year old, an eight
year old or even a 16 year old.
You know, giving them the keysto the car and saying where are
(04:25):
you taking us is scary, but itis the best way to affirm a
child.
Of course, when they are eightyears old or 11 years old, you
are right up front of the buswith them and you're helping
them along.
But it's important for parentsto understand as well is that
there are rules of the roadthere are, there's legislation,
(04:47):
there are medical Studies andstandards of care.
None of this is a decision thatyou have to make alone on your
own, and none of this is againhappening within five minutes.
And I was not the mom whowhipped out my pom-poms my
(05:08):
rainbow pom-poms and said, yay,my kid is trans.
My background is nursing.
I was a registered nurse andyou know, luckily, on a podcast
I can look as young as you'dlike it can imagine me, but I'm
not.
My nursing degree is quite oldand at the time being
(05:31):
transgender was a pathology.
It was considered a mentalillness.
So when he told me he was trans, my brain went immediately to
my kid is broken, I need to fixhim, which is wrong.
But I knew enough, because Iwas open-minded enough and knew
(05:54):
enough, that fixing him didn'tmean conversion therapy and
trying to remove you know hisgender or remove who he was.
I knew I needed to affirm him.
I just didn't know how, andthat is something that I hear a
lot from other parents is Idon't know what to do, I don't
(06:16):
know how to do it andunfortunately, society right now
is making it difficult forparents to access that
information as well.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah it definitely is a taboo subject to
even discuss in a lot of ways,and I guess that's why I think
it's so important that we'rehaving this conversation.
So when you were you, you saidhe was 11.
Were you shocked by thisrevelation?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I was, and I think it was some form of denial as well
.
It was, I would say I shocked,not quite fearful a lot, and it
was because I knew this had ahuge implication for him and his
life.
Once my husband and I sat downand we talked about things, we
(07:04):
started noticing signs that wehad missed or turned a blind eye
to.
From the time that he was quiteyoung.
He would use male avatars onhis video games.
He dressed in T-shirts andjeans, avoided the dresses Once
he could start choosing thingson his own, played with the boys
(07:25):
at school, you know, had verydifficult Time building
relationships with the girlsbecause he just didn't get the
way that they talked andsocialized.
It didn't register right forhim.
So those were all signs.
And the other big sign that welaugh at now is if we look back
(07:45):
at Halloween pictures from thetime he could choose what to be
for Halloween.
He was always a male character.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So those were our signs and you know, with Rose
the signs were very different.
Like we knew something was up.
She always had a very feminineaesthetic.
We automatically assumed thatshe was just going to be a gay
boy Like, and she embraced thatfor a long time.
(08:17):
She's like no, I'm just gay, no, I'm a femme boy.
And it took a lot ofconversations after the fact to
say you know what was yourhesitation to come out.
And it truly is.
Because women have a hard timein this world and trans women
also have a very hard time inthis world.
(08:38):
And she had to give up what shecalls her male privilege.
You know, and she says it as ajoke, she's like I had to make
the decision to take the pay cut.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Wow, wow.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So I mean, it's not that she was choosing to be
trans, it's that she waschoosing to live according to
what was on the inside, insteadof playing this role and this
ruse of I'll be a man, becausethat's what everybody else
expects me to be.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Right.
What do you say to the peoplethat say there's no way kids of
that age can make that kind ofdecision?
Kids that are 18 don't evenknow who they are in the world.
What do you say to that kind ofmindset?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I say yes and no.
I think it's a very nuancedconversation and it's not a
matter of the day you turn 18,.
All of a sudden, you know whoyou are and when you're 17 years
old and 364 days old, that youdon't right.
I don't think that that's amagical thing.
(09:45):
I think it's very subjectivefor each child.
However, when we look atsociology and psychology and
child development, childrenunderstand the concept of gender
as early as two, three yearsold.
They understand that in societywe have roles that we all play
(10:07):
as women and men, and there aresome of us who go against those
roles and there are some of uswho adhere to those roles.
By the age of five, six, seven,eight years old, they know what
role they're meant to play.
They can tell I do align a lotwith what mommy does in the
(10:31):
world, or I do align a lot withwhat daddy does in the world,
and those are the roles that I'mexpected to play.
Of course, in today's day andage, they have more than just
mom and dad as role models.
They have teachers andbabysitters, and television and
YouTube.
I can't believe sometimes theamount of toddlers who are
(10:54):
walking around with tablets.
Everyone is exposed to avariety of gender displays,
which is good, because varietyis a wonderful thing about life.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, I went back to one of the things you talked
about, mitchell, and you saidthat he always chose boy
costumes for Halloween.
What do you say to the parent?
That their child is not trans,that they know of yet.
They're little, they're youngchild and maybe it's one thing I
think in society to let thegirl be Batman, but very
(11:31):
different to let the boy beCinderella.
What do you think the idea of?
Well, if you let your childdress that way, you're trying to
make them trans.
Can we do that?
Do we have that kind ofauthority over our children?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
If I had that authority over children, my
children wouldn't be trans,because life and I adore them
and I would never change a thingabout them.
However, life is more difficultfor them, for sure.
I don't believe that we can makeour children trans.
I don't believe that afour-year-old dressing as Elsa
(12:10):
is automatically transgender.
I think there's a hugedifference between gender
expression and gender identityand that gets muddled up.
There are children who aregender creative.
They're gender nonconforming.
They just like to buy clothesfrom both the boys section and
the girls section.
(12:31):
That's okay.
It's just the way they expressthemselves.
Gender identity is who you knowyourself to be when you wake up
in the morning.
It's who you want to see in themirror, even without the
clothes and the hair.
It is your core on the insideof you.
Your child can just be gendercreative in their gender
(12:56):
expression.
I am a cisgender woman and aftermy children came out.
So cisgender means that youalign with the gender that you
were assigned at birth.
When I was born, the doctorlooked between my legs, saw the
body parts that I have and saidyou're a girl.
(13:17):
My mom dressed me as a girl andconditioned me as a girl
throughout my life.
It aligned with who I am.
I feel like a girl.
After my kids came out, I hadto double check.
I'm like am I just playing arole or is this truly who I am?
It is.
It is truly who I am.
That's my gender identity, howI dress.
(13:41):
If I choose to wear jeans andconstruction boots and a flannel
shirt tomorrow with a ball cap,that is typically a masculine
presentation but it still makesme a woman.
There are some Hollywood starsif you look at Harry Styles or
Billy Porter who they bend andthey'll wear a ball gown or
(14:03):
they'll wear lacy dresses andstuff like that.
That is going against gendernorms.
It doesn't necessarily make theperson transgender.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Okay, that makes sense.
What are some of the myths thatsurround this, especially when
it comes to people really takinga stance against it, against
supporting your children ifthey're coming out as a child?
What are some of the myths thatyou think perpetuate that?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yes, oh, thank you for asking this question.
The number one myth is that andI will use the language that
people are using they arehacking body parts off of
children.
Children do not go throughsurgery.
It depends on the state orcountry you live in.
(14:56):
Where I live, there are nosurgical procedures performed
under the age of 18.
The reason for that is to bike.
For me, I'm quite happy that mychild did not have access to
surgery before the 18, becauseit made me feel even that more
secure in this being the rightpath, because he didn't have
(15:20):
enough gender dysphoria torequire surgery right now.
The other reason that is veryimportant is bodies are still
growing.
You know you can't performsurgery on an eight-year-old.
I mean, I was a nurse.
We had children who would comein for a heart transplant and
they would need a repeattransplant later on in life,
(15:43):
because if you have afive-year-old heart it's not the
same as a 20-year-old heart.
So their body is still growing.
So there is no surgery that ishappening immediately.
There are some states andprovinces that are doing top
surgery for masculinizationbefore the age of 18.
It's usually around 16.
(16:04):
But again, this isn't done as awhim, like oh, I feel like a
chocolate bar for supper tonight.
It is done under medicalsupervision, with a lot of
evaluations that happenimmediately.
The other huge myth is that inorder to be transgender, you
(16:28):
have to have a medicaltransition, and that is not true
either.
And you can be transgender andnever have any surgical
procedures, never have anymedication, and only go through
what we call a social transition, which means that you change
the way you dress, the way youstyle your hair, the way you
(16:50):
speak, your gestures, you use adifferent pronoun, you use a
different name.
Those all fall under theumbrella of a social transition.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Okay, so before we, I have another question, but are
there any other myths that youwant to dispel for us right now,
because these are great?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Okay, let me see what else do I get.
I think and we kind of touchedon it the myth that parents can
make their kids transgender.
I can't make my kids empty thedishwasher.
There's no way that you canmake someone transgender.
I think that it is such aningrained part of who we are
(17:34):
that parents don't cause this,we can't encourage it, and you
can't convince a medical boardeither that it's because you
want this to happen.
Like I said, this is not aneasy path.
These children have a very.
There's a lot of people out inthe world who don't want them to
(18:00):
exist, right, and so why anyparent would impose on their
child the pressures of the worldto not want them to exist is
just beyond me.
So I don't see why a parentwould force that onto a child.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Right, and I feel like that kind of comes to the
age of question is is it achoice?
And that goes for genderidentity but also sexuality, and
I am a straight woman, so Idon't have any experience in
this personally to say, but Ijust can't imagine that people
would choose a harder pathbecause we know that it is going
(18:43):
to be a harder path for them.
Like you said, they're going toface so many more pressures
than we already do in the world.
So I just you know, I thinkthat that's you know.
You just kind of always comesup like it's who chooses the to
climb the mountain instead ofwalk through the valley.
You know, yeah, yeah was.
So back to.
We discussed, I think youtouched on especially children
(19:06):
and adults that fall into theLGBTQ plus Population.
There is a very high suiciderate and Directly tied right to
the social pressures that we'refeeling or that they're feeling.
So how do we, how do we Take ateenager who's already like
teeny-pinky, you're so hardright, regardless of where you
(19:30):
fall, being a teacher'steenagers, so fall hard.
How do we support our teenagersif we're in this space to To do
our best to protect theirmental health as they go through
this transition?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, great question.
And this is this is also when Isay, like one of the first
things that parents can do thisisn't something you do on the
first day, but it's definitelysomething all parents can do and
that is to increase ourchildren's distress tolerance.
Life is hard if you're trans ornot, like being a teen, like
(20:03):
you said, is very hard.
So the more that we can armthem with tools to Bolster their
amount, mental health, waysthat they can cope with the
stressors of life, that that isso important.
So I I'm a huge advocate fortherapy.
I think that is a wonderfulthing.
(20:23):
I can't Be a therapist, I'monly a life coach.
Not only, but it's a completelydifferent skill set.
And when I started Supportingparents of trans kids, I I tried
to be a life coach for parentsof trans kids, but it's such a
different skill set and theytruly needed therapy.
I and, and so Parents need thetherapy.
(20:47):
We are still in couples therapybecause it helps make our car,
our Relationship stronger withour children.
Our children are in therapy andI know it's a cost and you know
sometimes we have to findalternatives and get on wait
lists for lower cost Therapy,but it's so important because
(21:08):
then the kids can, can toleratewhat we hear in the world.
The other thing is there's thecontinuum.
So when your kid first comesout, you are in survival mode.
You are like, okay, when theyfirst come out it's very
expensive because you arechanging their clothes and you
(21:31):
don't realize how gendered Toysand like we needed new skates, a
new bike, a new backpack, a newlunchbox, a new pencil case and
a new jacket, like there's allof these things that are
gendered, that we had to switchover.
So you go through that cost,you go through.
How do we tell grandma, how dowe tell the school, like there's
(21:52):
just so much to be dealing with.
And that's why I think having asupport group if you can join a
Support group, have a therapist, that type of thing.
But back to the suicidality.
That that's where you want tomake sure that your child has
distrust, tolerance.
But you need support as aparent because you are the
(22:15):
person that they come to.
You are the one.
Luckily, if you're lucky, theycome to you when they're under
distressed and and the hardestthing I ever had to do was bring
my son to the emergency roomafter a suicide attempt and
(22:39):
explain to the triage nurse whywe're there.
It is so difficult.
So I needed help as a parent aswell.
The children always come first.
They always need all of theresources, but if we, as parents
, aren't taking care ofourselves and don't have
(23:00):
resources to bolster us, thenwe're of no use to them and it
makes things worse for them.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I feel like, as parents, we need a support
system, regardless of whateverwe're facing or whatever our
children are in their lives.
If you have a child withspecial needs, there are support
groups for that.
If you have a child with ADD,there are support groups for
that.
If you have a child with adisease, there are support
groups for that.
I think that is so key and soimportant.
(23:32):
Regardless of what yourchildren are dealing with, we
need support too, like you said,in order to support them.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Just to piggyback off of that and I'm just going to
be vulnerable and say sometimesI find it difficult because I
don't speak for the transcommunity.
I'm not transgender, I speakfor the parents In my position.
I often hear being transgenderis not a pathology, it's not a
disease.
(24:00):
It's just who they are From myperspective.
Sometimes it is okay to compareit in my mind to if my child
was diabetic.
They would need hormones, theyneed insulin for the rest of
their life.
It's just part of who they areIn my mind.
(24:24):
If I look at it that way, then Ican understand why metroline's
testosterone for the rest of hislife is just a hormone that is
going to make him better.
I don't want to pathologizebeing trans, but it is like
having a child with specialneeds.
It is like having a child whois going to be on medication for
(24:45):
the rest of their lives if theychoose medical transition.
So yeah, I just wanted to putthat out there, because I hear
when people say let's not makethis a disease and let's not
make this a problem that needsto be fixed.
But on the other side, as aparent, it does sometimes feel
(25:07):
like I'm dealing with a medicalcondition.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
That was very well explained.
I completely get what you'resaying.
Before we run out of time, whatdo you say to the parents that
maybe you're suspecting, butmaybe that they have always the
old school way of thought.
They've grown up in the oldschool way of thought and now
they feel like you know what Ifeel, like I understand this
(25:32):
more, but I don't know if mychild would feel comfortable
telling me what do you?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
say to that parent Allow them space and allow them
opportunity to tell other people.
So I wrote a book beyondpronouns the essential guide for
parents and trans kids, and inthere there is a chapter on a
section on why kids will telltheir friends or their
babysitters or the school beforetelling the parent.
(25:59):
And that's because thatrelationship is so important to
them that they don't want tolose that relationship.
So if you don't need to keepasking your kid if they're trans
over and over again, but makesure that they have a support
system available to them so thatthey can come out to someone
else or so that they can exploretheir gender and it doesn't
(26:22):
mean that they, you know, ifyou're suspecting well, maybe
there's something up with yourkid, doesn't necessarily mean
that there is something up withthem, right?
Sometimes they're just pushingthe boundaries of what the rules
are.
I mean, if anything, teens arerebellious.
So if some teens and I knowthem I've told me I use they
(26:43):
them pronouns just to screw withmy mom, and if that is part of
being a teenager, it doesn'tmean that they're going to go on
and have a medical transitionor need to legally change their
name.
So allow them that room toexplore, allow them to have
(27:04):
these experiences andexperiments without jumping to
the conclusion that you now needto rush off to a gender clinic
and yeah, if you can.
Just the other really importantthing is if, even if you don't
have any suspicions is watchyour language, because if we are
(27:25):
using derogatory terms andtelling you know, colored jokes,
like off-color jokes, just toyou know, be funny, the kids
hear that and they will not comeout to you because you're no
longer a safe person.
And maybe it's not them, maybeit's their friends that they
have come over, who are trans ortransitioning.
(27:47):
They will not feel like you area safe person if you just think
it's funny to be making fun ofpeople.
So that's some.
And I have had parents tell meyou know, I don't understand why
my kid is so ornery with me asand I'm doing everything to
(28:07):
support them.
And then you know, a couple ofmonths later they've finally had
that conversation with theirkid and their kid was like
because you weren't safe,because you used to say this and
that about Uncle John, and nowI'm realizing that you are safe,
but it took me a while before Icould trust you.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, and of course, I mean we want to, like you said
, it's so interesting that theydon't come out to parents first,
but we want to be that personthat they feel the most
comfortable and the most safewith, regardless of what it is.
Yeah, so well.
Tammy, this has been really,really helpful, and I know you
have lots of resources.
You have a book.
Obviously, your social media isfilled with resources and you
have a freebie that people cancheck out on your website.
(28:49):
If they want to dive into thisa little bit more, tell us just
a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah.
So it is a very, veryintroductory look at what it
means to have a child who istransgender.
So it's defining transgenderand it's answering the three
biggest questions that parentshave when their kids come out.
Like what do I do?
First, is my child broken?
Those are the big questionsthat people have in those first
(29:19):
days when their child comes out.
So defining transgender is agreat resource for that.
And then the book is for thefirst hundred days after the kid
comes out Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well, thank you for putting these resources out in
the world because it is needed.
You know, as parents, we wantto do everything we can to
support our children in who theyare, so I appreciate you
spending so much of your timeand your life on this focus.
So we will link to everything,of course, in the show notes, so
you can reach out to Tammy ifyou have questions.
If you're interested in workingwith her, we want to check out
her book.
We'll put everything down therefor you.
(29:52):
Again, tammy, thank you so muchfor your time.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Thanks for having me and thanks for having this
podcast.
It's so important.
Thank you,
Welcome back to Speak Out Standout.
I'm Elizabeth Green and todayI'm here with Tammy Plunkett.
Tammy is a certified life coachand she helps parents, families
, organizations, caregivers,interacting with youth to
understand gender identity andto help create, grow and create
healthy, happy children,connected families and a
strengthened community.
(00:21):
Tammy, super excited to haveyou here and have this so
important conversation thatsometimes we're just not quite
sure how to address.
So thanks for taking your time.
First and foremost, I'm sohappy to be here.
So, tammy, you are a certifiedlife coach, but you focus on
gender identity.
How did you get to this pointwhere this is your, your main
focus, your main calling?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Having trans children is really what threw me into
this.
I learned by drinking from thefire hose of life.
My third.
I have four children.
My third child came out astransgender when he was 11 years
old, which is seven years agonow.
He's now 18 and off touniversity, which is a huge
(01:04):
change in our lives.
And then, about a year and ahalf ago, my youngest child
shared her truth with us thatshe's a trans girl.
So I learned a lot with my son,mitchell.
I took some university courses,I've led a peer led support
group for a while and I wrote abook about it on the social
(01:29):
transition.
When Rose came out my youngestchild, because of her age, we
embarked immediately in amedical transition.
So I have a lot of experiencein it and I have become
passionate about making surepeople understand what it means,
(01:49):
because a lot of times peoplewould ask me especially after
Mitchell came out, how canchildren be transgender?
They didn't understand whatgender identity was and they
would confuse it with sexualorientation, which is
understandable.
That's how the televisionportrays it.
A lot of times it's bunched inwith LGBTQ all in this one
(02:15):
acronym, but they're two veryseparate things and children can
absolutely be transgender.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Even when they're not to the point of having crushes
on boys or girls, right, likeyou said, it has nothing to do
with that at that stage.
So we could go with manydifferent ways with this
conversation.
I think what I would reallylove to talk about two things
One, the family that is goingthrough this right now and how
they can best support theirchild, and also just some
education for those of us whodon't have anyone close in our
(02:46):
lives that is transgender, andwe want to make sure we don't
say the wrong things or you knowand that kind of thing.
So two very differentconversations, but hopefully
they can kind of mesh together.
So, tammy, starting with the,let's start with the family that
might be going throughsomething like this, and it
sounds like you went into itwith quite the open mind and you
(03:06):
were ready to learn in order tosupport your kids.
But not everybody, you know, isgoing to go into it like that.
What is your very first advicewhenever a child comes to their
parents and says listen, here'swhat's going on?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, I don't know if I had an open mind.
Well, guess what?
My first advice is always totake a breath and take a beat.
It is so, so instinctual for usas parents to want to fix
everything and to want to getinto reactive mode and doing
mode.
And none of this needs to bedone immediately.
(03:41):
Of course, we want our childrento be safe and if they're in
distress or having mental healthissues suicidality is a theme
for this population those needto be addressed and decisions
don't need to be made fiveminutes after your child told
(04:02):
you that you know they feeldifferent than the gender that
was assigned to them when theywere born.
The best advice I always say islet your child drive the bus,
which can be terrifying whenit's an 11 year old, an eight
year old or even a 16 year old.
You know, giving them the keysto the car and saying where are
(04:25):
you taking us is scary, but itis the best way to affirm a
child.
Of course, when they are eightyears old or 11 years old, you
are right up front of the buswith them and you're helping
them along.
But it's important for parentsto understand as well is that
there are rules of the roadthere are, there's legislation,
(04:47):
there are medical Studies andstandards of care.
None of this is a decision thatyou have to make alone on your
own, and none of this is againhappening within five minutes.
And I was not the mom whowhipped out my pom-poms my
(05:08):
rainbow pom-poms and said, yay,my kid is trans.
My background is nursing.
I was a registered nurse andyou know, luckily, on a podcast
I can look as young as you'dlike it can imagine me, but I'm
not.
My nursing degree is quite oldand at the time being
(05:31):
transgender was a pathology.
It was considered a mentalillness.
So when he told me he was trans, my brain went immediately to
my kid is broken, I need to fixhim, which is wrong.
But I knew enough, because Iwas open-minded enough and knew
(05:54):
enough, that fixing him didn'tmean conversion therapy and
trying to remove you know hisgender or remove who he was.
I knew I needed to affirm him.
I just didn't know how, andthat is something that I hear a
lot from other parents is Idon't know what to do, I don't
(06:16):
know how to do it andunfortunately, society right now
is making it difficult forparents to access that
information as well.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah it definitely is a taboo subject to
even discuss in a lot of ways,and I guess that's why I think
it's so important that we'rehaving this conversation.
So when you were you, you saidhe was 11.
Were you shocked by thisrevelation?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I was, and I think it was some form of denial as well
.
It was, I would say I shocked,not quite fearful a lot, and it
was because I knew this had ahuge implication for him and his
life.
Once my husband and I sat downand we talked about things, we
(07:04):
started noticing signs that wehad missed or turned a blind eye
to.
From the time that he was quiteyoung.
He would use male avatars onhis video games.
He dressed in T-shirts andjeans, avoided the dresses Once
he could start choosing thingson his own, played with the boys
(07:25):
at school, you know, had verydifficult Time building
relationships with the girlsbecause he just didn't get the
way that they talked andsocialized.
It didn't register right forhim.
So those were all signs.
And the other big sign that welaugh at now is if we look back
(07:45):
at Halloween pictures from thetime he could choose what to be
for Halloween.
He was always a male character.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So those were our signs and you know, with Rose
the signs were very different.
Like we knew something was up.
She always had a very feminineaesthetic.
We automatically assumed thatshe was just going to be a gay
boy Like, and she embraced thatfor a long time.
(08:17):
She's like no, I'm just gay, no, I'm a femme boy.
And it took a lot ofconversations after the fact to
say you know what was yourhesitation to come out.
And it truly is.
Because women have a hard timein this world and trans women
also have a very hard time inthis world.
(08:38):
And she had to give up what shecalls her male privilege.
You know, and she says it as ajoke, she's like I had to make
the decision to take the pay cut.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Wow, wow.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So I mean, it's not that she was choosing to be
trans, it's that she waschoosing to live according to
what was on the inside, insteadof playing this role and this
ruse of I'll be a man, becausethat's what everybody else
expects me to be.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Right.
What do you say to the peoplethat say there's no way kids of
that age can make that kind ofdecision?
Kids that are 18 don't evenknow who they are in the world.
What do you say to that kind ofmindset?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I say yes and no.
I think it's a very nuancedconversation and it's not a
matter of the day you turn 18,.
All of a sudden, you know whoyou are and when you're 17 years
old and 364 days old, that youdon't right.
I don't think that that's amagical thing.
(09:45):
I think it's very subjectivefor each child.
However, when we look atsociology and psychology and
child development, childrenunderstand the concept of gender
as early as two, three yearsold.
They understand that in societywe have roles that we all play
(10:07):
as women and men, and there aresome of us who go against those
roles and there are some of uswho adhere to those roles.
By the age of five, six, seven,eight years old, they know what
role they're meant to play.
They can tell I do align a lotwith what mommy does in the
(10:31):
world, or I do align a lot withwhat daddy does in the world,
and those are the roles that I'mexpected to play.
Of course, in today's day andage, they have more than just
mom and dad as role models.
They have teachers andbabysitters, and television and
YouTube.
I can't believe sometimes theamount of toddlers who are
(10:54):
walking around with tablets.
Everyone is exposed to avariety of gender displays,
which is good, because varietyis a wonderful thing about life.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, I went back to one of the things you talked
about, mitchell, and you saidthat he always chose boy
costumes for Halloween.
What do you say to the parent?
That their child is not trans,that they know of yet.
They're little, they're youngchild and maybe it's one thing I
think in society to let thegirl be Batman, but very
(11:31):
different to let the boy beCinderella.
What do you think the idea of?
Well, if you let your childdress that way, you're trying to
make them trans.
Can we do that?
Do we have that kind ofauthority over our children?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
If I had that authority over children, my
children wouldn't be trans,because life and I adore them
and I would never change a thingabout them.
However, life is more difficultfor them, for sure.
I don't believe that we can makeour children trans.
I don't believe that afour-year-old dressing as Elsa
(12:10):
is automatically transgender.
I think there's a hugedifference between gender
expression and gender identityand that gets muddled up.
There are children who aregender creative.
They're gender nonconforming.
They just like to buy clothesfrom both the boys section and
the girls section.
(12:31):
That's okay.
It's just the way they expressthemselves.
Gender identity is who you knowyourself to be when you wake up
in the morning.
It's who you want to see in themirror, even without the
clothes and the hair.
It is your core on the insideof you.
Your child can just be gendercreative in their gender
(12:56):
expression.
I am a cisgender woman and aftermy children came out.
So cisgender means that youalign with the gender that you
were assigned at birth.
When I was born, the doctorlooked between my legs, saw the
body parts that I have and saidyou're a girl.
(13:17):
My mom dressed me as a girl andconditioned me as a girl
throughout my life.
It aligned with who I am.
I feel like a girl.
After my kids came out, I hadto double check.
I'm like am I just playing arole or is this truly who I am?
It is.
It is truly who I am.
That's my gender identity, howI dress.
(13:41):
If I choose to wear jeans andconstruction boots and a flannel
shirt tomorrow with a ball cap,that is typically a masculine
presentation but it still makesme a woman.
There are some Hollywood starsif you look at Harry Styles or
Billy Porter who they bend andthey'll wear a ball gown or
(14:03):
they'll wear lacy dresses andstuff like that.
That is going against gendernorms.
It doesn't necessarily make theperson transgender.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Okay, that makes sense.
What are some of the myths thatsurround this, especially when
it comes to people really takinga stance against it, against
supporting your children ifthey're coming out as a child?
What are some of the myths thatyou think perpetuate that?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yes, oh, thank you for asking this question.
The number one myth is that andI will use the language that
people are using they arehacking body parts off of
children.
Children do not go throughsurgery.
It depends on the state orcountry you live in.
(14:56):
Where I live, there are nosurgical procedures performed
under the age of 18.
The reason for that is to bike.
For me, I'm quite happy that mychild did not have access to
surgery before the 18, becauseit made me feel even that more
secure in this being the rightpath, because he didn't have
(15:20):
enough gender dysphoria torequire surgery right now.
The other reason that is veryimportant is bodies are still
growing.
You know you can't performsurgery on an eight-year-old.
I mean, I was a nurse.
We had children who would comein for a heart transplant and
they would need a repeattransplant later on in life,
(15:43):
because if you have afive-year-old heart it's not the
same as a 20-year-old heart.
So their body is still growing.
So there is no surgery that ishappening immediately.
There are some states andprovinces that are doing top
surgery for masculinizationbefore the age of 18.
It's usually around 16.
(16:04):
But again, this isn't done as awhim, like oh, I feel like a
chocolate bar for supper tonight.
It is done under medicalsupervision, with a lot of
evaluations that happenimmediately.
The other huge myth is that inorder to be transgender, you
(16:28):
have to have a medicaltransition, and that is not true
either.
And you can be transgender andnever have any surgical
procedures, never have anymedication, and only go through
what we call a social transition, which means that you change
the way you dress, the way youstyle your hair, the way you
(16:50):
speak, your gestures, you use adifferent pronoun, you use a
different name.
Those all fall under theumbrella of a social transition.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Okay, so before we, I have another question, but are
there any other myths that youwant to dispel for us right now,
because these are great?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Okay, let me see what else do I get.
I think and we kind of touchedon it the myth that parents can
make their kids transgender.
I can't make my kids empty thedishwasher.
There's no way that you canmake someone transgender.
I think that it is such aningrained part of who we are
(17:34):
that parents don't cause this,we can't encourage it, and you
can't convince a medical boardeither that it's because you
want this to happen.
Like I said, this is not aneasy path.
These children have a very.
There's a lot of people out inthe world who don't want them to
(18:00):
exist, right, and so why anyparent would impose on their
child the pressures of the worldto not want them to exist is
just beyond me.
So I don't see why a parentwould force that onto a child.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Right, and I feel like that kind of comes to the
age of question is is it achoice?
And that goes for genderidentity but also sexuality, and
I am a straight woman, so Idon't have any experience in
this personally to say, but Ijust can't imagine that people
would choose a harder pathbecause we know that it is going
(18:43):
to be a harder path for them.
Like you said, they're going toface so many more pressures
than we already do in the world.
So I just you know, I thinkthat that's you know.
You just kind of always comesup like it's who chooses the to
climb the mountain instead ofwalk through the valley.
You know, yeah, yeah was.
So back to.
We discussed, I think youtouched on especially children
(19:06):
and adults that fall into theLGBTQ plus Population.
There is a very high suiciderate and Directly tied right to
the social pressures that we'refeeling or that they're feeling.
So how do we, how do we Take ateenager who's already like
teeny-pinky, you're so hardright, regardless of where you
(19:30):
fall, being a teacher'steenagers, so fall hard.
How do we support our teenagersif we're in this space to To do
our best to protect theirmental health as they go through
this transition?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, great question.
And this is this is also when Isay, like one of the first
things that parents can do thisisn't something you do on the
first day, but it's definitelysomething all parents can do and
that is to increase ourchildren's distress tolerance.
Life is hard if you're trans ornot, like being a teen, like
(20:03):
you said, is very hard.
So the more that we can armthem with tools to Bolster their
amount, mental health, waysthat they can cope with the
stressors of life, that that isso important.
So I I'm a huge advocate fortherapy.
I think that is a wonderfulthing.
(20:23):
I can't Be a therapist, I'monly a life coach.
Not only, but it's a completelydifferent skill set.
And when I started Supportingparents of trans kids, I I tried
to be a life coach for parentsof trans kids, but it's such a
different skill set and theytruly needed therapy.
I and, and so Parents need thetherapy.
(20:47):
We are still in couples therapybecause it helps make our car,
our Relationship stronger withour children.
Our children are in therapy andI know it's a cost and you know
sometimes we have to findalternatives and get on wait
lists for lower cost Therapy,but it's so important because
(21:08):
then the kids can, can toleratewhat we hear in the world.
The other thing is there's thecontinuum.
So when your kid first comesout, you are in survival mode.
You are like, okay, when theyfirst come out it's very
expensive because you arechanging their clothes and you
(21:31):
don't realize how gendered Toysand like we needed new skates, a
new bike, a new backpack, a newlunchbox, a new pencil case and
a new jacket, like there's allof these things that are
gendered, that we had to switchover.
So you go through that cost,you go through.
How do we tell grandma, how dowe tell the school, like there's
(21:52):
just so much to be dealing with.
And that's why I think having asupport group if you can join a
Support group, have a therapist, that type of thing.
But back to the suicidality.
That that's where you want tomake sure that your child has
distrust, tolerance.
But you need support as aparent because you are the
(22:15):
person that they come to.
You are the one.
Luckily, if you're lucky, theycome to you when they're under
distressed and and the hardestthing I ever had to do was bring
my son to the emergency roomafter a suicide attempt and
(22:39):
explain to the triage nurse whywe're there.
It is so difficult.
So I needed help as a parent aswell.
The children always come first.
They always need all of theresources, but if we, as parents
, aren't taking care ofourselves and don't have
(23:00):
resources to bolster us, thenwe're of no use to them and it
makes things worse for them.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I feel like, as parents, we need a support
system, regardless of whateverwe're facing or whatever our
children are in their lives.
If you have a child withspecial needs, there are support
groups for that.
If you have a child with ADD,there are support groups for
that.
If you have a child with adisease, there are support
groups for that.
I think that is so key and soimportant.
(23:32):
Regardless of what yourchildren are dealing with, we
need support too, like you said,in order to support them.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Just to piggyback off of that and I'm just going to
be vulnerable and say sometimesI find it difficult because I
don't speak for the transcommunity.
I'm not transgender, I speakfor the parents In my position.
I often hear being transgenderis not a pathology, it's not a
disease.
(24:00):
It's just who they are From myperspective.
Sometimes it is okay to compareit in my mind to if my child
was diabetic.
They would need hormones, theyneed insulin for the rest of
their life.
It's just part of who they areIn my mind.
(24:24):
If I look at it that way, then Ican understand why metroline's
testosterone for the rest of hislife is just a hormone that is
going to make him better.
I don't want to pathologizebeing trans, but it is like
having a child with specialneeds.
It is like having a child whois going to be on medication for
(24:45):
the rest of their lives if theychoose medical transition.
So yeah, I just wanted to putthat out there, because I hear
when people say let's not makethis a disease and let's not
make this a problem that needsto be fixed.
But on the other side, as aparent, it does sometimes feel
(25:07):
like I'm dealing with a medicalcondition.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
That was very well explained.
I completely get what you'resaying.
Before we run out of time, whatdo you say to the parents that
maybe you're suspecting, butmaybe that they have always the
old school way of thought.
They've grown up in the oldschool way of thought and now
they feel like you know what Ifeel, like I understand this
(25:32):
more, but I don't know if mychild would feel comfortable
telling me what do you?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
say to that parent Allow them space and allow them
opportunity to tell other people.
So I wrote a book beyondpronouns the essential guide for
parents and trans kids, and inthere there is a chapter on a
section on why kids will telltheir friends or their
babysitters or the school beforetelling the parent.
(25:59):
And that's because thatrelationship is so important to
them that they don't want tolose that relationship.
So if you don't need to keepasking your kid if they're trans
over and over again, but makesure that they have a support
system available to them so thatthey can come out to someone
else or so that they can exploretheir gender and it doesn't
(26:22):
mean that they, you know, ifyou're suspecting well, maybe
there's something up with yourkid, doesn't necessarily mean
that there is something up withthem, right?
Sometimes they're just pushingthe boundaries of what the rules
are.
I mean, if anything, teens arerebellious.
So if some teens and I knowthem I've told me I use they
(26:43):
them pronouns just to screw withmy mom, and if that is part of
being a teenager, it doesn'tmean that they're going to go on
and have a medical transitionor need to legally change their
name.
So allow them that room toexplore, allow them to have
(27:04):
these experiences andexperiments without jumping to
the conclusion that you now needto rush off to a gender clinic
and yeah, if you can.
Just the other really importantthing is if, even if you don't
have any suspicions is watchyour language, because if we are
(27:25):
using derogatory terms andtelling you know, colored jokes,
like off-color jokes, just toyou know, be funny, the kids
hear that and they will not comeout to you because you're no
longer a safe person.
And maybe it's not them, maybeit's their friends that they
have come over, who are trans ortransitioning.
(27:47):
They will not feel like you area safe person if you just think
it's funny to be making fun ofpeople.
So that's some.
And I have had parents tell meyou know, I don't understand why
my kid is so ornery with me asand I'm doing everything to
(28:07):
support them.
And then you know, a couple ofmonths later they've finally had
that conversation with theirkid and their kid was like
because you weren't safe,because you used to say this and
that about Uncle John, and nowI'm realizing that you are safe,
but it took me a while before Icould trust you.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, and of course, I mean we want to, like you said
, it's so interesting that theydon't come out to parents first,
but we want to be that personthat they feel the most
comfortable and the most safewith, regardless of what it is.
Yeah, so well.
Tammy, this has been really,really helpful, and I know you
have lots of resources.
You have a book.
Obviously, your social media isfilled with resources and you
have a freebie that people cancheck out on your website.
(28:49):
If they want to dive into thisa little bit more, tell us just
a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah.
So it is a very, veryintroductory look at what it
means to have a child who istransgender.
So it's defining transgenderand it's answering the three
biggest questions that parentshave when their kids come out.
Like what do I do?
First, is my child broken?
Those are the big questionsthat people have in those first
(29:19):
days when their child comes out.
So defining transgender is agreat resource for that.
And then the book is for thefirst hundred days after the kid
comes out Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well, thank you for putting these resources out in
the world because it is needed.
You know, as parents, we wantto do everything we can to
support our children in who theyare, so I appreciate you
spending so much of your timeand your life on this focus.
So we will link to everything,of course, in the show notes, so
you can reach out to Tammy ifyou have questions.
If you're interested in workingwith her, we want to check out
her book.
We'll put everything down therefor you.
(29:52):
Again, tammy, thank you so muchfor your time.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Thanks for having me and thanks for having this
podcast.
It's so important.
Thank you,
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.