March 3, 2025 • 24 mins
Unlock the secrets to nurturing twice exceptional (2E) learners with our insightful guest, Melissa Muir. As an experienced online teacher and homeschooling mother of four, Melissa sheds light on recognizing and fostering the unique talents of children who are both gifted and have learning disabilities. We explore the diverse types of giftedness, from the academically inclined to those with hidden talents in coding and the arts, and delve into practical strategies to provide tailored educational opportunities.
This episode also details actionable communication tips that parents can use to help their 2E children express themselves clearly and build meaningful social connections. Tune in for an episode packed with valuable advice and inspiration for supporting twice-exceptional learners.
Connect with Melissa
Find out more about 2E learning at Melissa's website, braintrain.org. You can also find her on Facebook or Instagram.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green, and todayMelissa Muir is joining us.
Melissa is an online teacherand a homeschooling mama of four
, and she has a wealth ofknowledge about lots of things
in homeschooling and beyond, sowe're excited to have you here
today.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
So what we're talking about today is twice
exceptional kids or 2E, and howto really help them build
communication skills, but liketaking a big step back because
some people were hearing twiceexceptional, for the first time,
2e.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah, so anytime a learner is considered
exceptional, we've got thingsthat we just need to take into
account.
Right, this could be a learningdisability, a physical
disability, cognitive disability, as well as some giftedness,
and so giftedness kind of mightping off your ears in different
ways.
Right, it might make you thinkof those nerdy kids.
It might make you think of akid who, like, specializes in
(00:54):
something and is super, duper,duper, you know, obsessed with
something.
But all of this kind of comesto a head when we think about
two e-learners who may need someextra support in a few
different ways, as well as anextra challenge in different
ways.
So we just need to take intoaccount different types of
giftedness and different typesof exceptions based on each
learner.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
And is this something that is diagnosed, or how does
that work?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, usually the learning disability would be
diagnosed right.
You might have a child withADHD, a child with autism, a
learner who just has some sortof auditory processing
disability, as well as thingslike dysgraphia and dyscalculia
and dyslexia, and so all thesedifferent things that could play
into how they take in theirlearning and then figuring out
(01:43):
how we can best support them asthey show what they know.
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
And is it important, before we kind of dive into the
communication side of things,how important is it for us to
provide the correct learningopportunities for 2E kids,
Because they're not just likeevery other kid?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
right, they're not.
There's so much that we can dohere, but thinking about the
type of gifted learner that theyare, I'll get into a few here.
One might be the kid who justwants to check all the boxes is
super academic, right.
This is the type of kid wemight think of when we think of
gifted learners.
There are others, though.
(02:21):
We might have the kid who'skind of flying under the radar.
They might be a little bit of arebel in class.
They do not want to follow theinstructions that you're giving
them.
They are ready to go their ownway, and if you don't let them,
they are going to crumble andshut down and really not perform
in class, which might make youthink, oh, they don't get it.
They don't know, they got it 10minutes before everybody else
(02:41):
did, they're just bored.
We've also got, I like to thinkof, like mean girls Remember
Katie and mean girls the maincharacter right.
Lindsay Lohan, who's like supergood at math, but she does not
want to be good at math becauseit's not cool to be good at math
.
So she's flying under the radar.
She is gifted at math but sheis going to make herself not
look good at math just to fit in.
A lot of middle school girlsfit into this category, although
(03:03):
that is not the only type ofkid who's going to fit into this
category.
So, thinking about that, andthen we've got kids who are like
super focused on one thingright.
The rest of their academicendeavors they're going to get
by on it, they'll be okay.
But they are either supervisually artistically gifted
right.
They're going to paint youbeautiful masterpieces, they're
(03:23):
going to create beautiful piecesof music, they're going to
engineer something ridiculousright or they're going to
program.
I mean we need to start takinginto account these kids who have
been coding, because thankfully, we've got great resources now
for our kids to learn coding andthings like that.
They might be able to whip up agame or an app or something
simple as a 10-year-old Whoa,that's really cool.
We need to foster that, and sofiguring out ways to support our
(03:46):
learners in those two-waysituations is super, duper
important.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Thank you for breaking that down, because I
think you're exactly right.
When you say gifted, we imaginethe first scenario that you
talked about, not the others.
So I'm glad you broke that down, because I'm sure some people
are thinking, oh, that soundsfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I think that's important because every kid is
gifted in some way.
If you want to like go further,you can do a quick, open
another tab on wherever you'relistening to this and look up
Howard Gardner's theory ofmultiple intelligences.
And we've got nature smart.
We've got bodily kinesthetic.
We've got music intrapersonalknowing ourselves and our
emotions that bodily kinesthetic, we've got music intrapersonal
knowing ourselves and ouremotions interpersonal, being
able to navigate thoserelationships.
So kids have one, two, three,four areas of giftedness,
(04:36):
intelligence, right, and so wecan latch onto that and see how
well they could demonstrate thatknowledge.
So sorry to interrupt, but thatis going to be something for
every single kid.
So hopefully you hear that andyou go oh yeah, I see that in my
kiddo.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, absolutely no.
I'm so glad you said thatbecause, like I said, this is
news to me.
I'm learning about this asyou're explaining it, so that's
great.
Well, so let's talk about howare we going to build
communication skills,particularly in our 2E kids.
What kind of challenges do wesee and how can we kind of
overcome those that we're not,we wouldn't see in just a normal
environment?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yeah, so you know, in in all of this it's going to
depend on the learner, right?
It's going to depend on um thesecond exception, if we're
assuming that they're gifted.
The second exception is goingto um have a big role in how
they show their communicate andhow they demonstrate their
communication skills here, um,but I think a lot of it is going
to be um skills here.
(05:26):
But I think a lot of it isgoing to be monitoring the
amount of anxiety that we'reproducing in a situation.
We want to lower that anxiety,give them scaffolding to work on
this in a way that makes themfeel comfortable and then, if
they do find something that theyare super passionate about,
something that they're superobsessed with I keep saying that
, but this is a really commoncharacteristic in gifted kids
they will be obsessed withreading or a certain area of
(05:48):
history.
I've got one of my kids couldcare less about reading and we
do a lot of like scaffoldingwith her reading skills.
But she wants to devoureverything about World War II,
which makes my heart happybecause I love learning about
World War II and I still almostexclusively read historical
fiction about World War IIbecause it's fascinating.
But there's that area ofintense interest that if you see
(06:14):
that great, go with it, go downthe rabbit trail with them and
then take these little detours.
Hey, today we're going to trywriting a speech about it.
Today we're going to have adebate, you and me.
Maybe next week you have adebate with another friend or a
sibling about this.
Then we're going to kind ofmove into writing about it.
We're going to get into maybesome graphic or drawing areas
(06:36):
with this.
So giving them all the chancesto demonstrate what they know.
There's a lot of if writing orthe physical act of writing is a
challenge for some kids.
There's plenty of ways that youcan do this online with tools.
One of my favorites is Nearpod.
You can make a free account touse and come up with these
different activities for yourkid to demonstrate what they
(06:58):
know.
And they've got like free youknow lessons pre-made for you.
So one of my favorite thingsthat we use in our homeschool as
well.
But you can take those otherresources and just present them.
Think of it as like a buffetand you're going to hit all
those skills at some point.
But they might devour themacaroni and cheese on a level
that does not compare to thebroccoli salad right and so kind
(07:21):
of figuring out what theyreally love and giving them more
opportunities to take part.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And it sounds like.
Why would we not do that witheducation in general for all
kids?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I have titled and written and given so many talks
that say gifted education,gifted style education for all,
because it's just like duh.
This feels like common sense tobe able to give all learners
the chance to pick and chooseand then go with what they need.
You know, I loved my pre-calteacher but I have not used
pre-cal since 10th grade andthank you very much for that.
(07:54):
But I would have really beenserved by, you know, a financial
literacy class or a marketingclass or whatever.
So find what they're reallyinterested in and let them sort
that.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
One of the things you mentioned at the very beginning
was really managing anxietylevels right.
And especially when we'retalking communications or any
form of public speaking right,anxiety levels are going to go
through the roof for most peoplein those scenarios.
Yet it's something that we haveto be able to do.
So how do we manage that?
How do we know when we stillneed to push them?
(08:26):
Because, you know, some thingsthat we learn how to do are
uncomfortable, but we still haveto learn them.
But how do we do that in a waythat benefits our kids instead
of pushes them away from it?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, I think again, once you know what they're
interested in or what they'regood at, help them find their
strengths and let them gosh.
Let them name their strengthshey, I felt really good at that.
Maybe once in a while, bring upthree things that they've done.
Hey, which one felt easiest toyou?
Let them kind of self-evaluateand say, hey, this one felt
(08:59):
great to me because I reallyloved being on camera, because I
really loved drawing this thingthat I know a lot about,
because I really lovedexplaining and telling you
something you didn't know,because I felt really important
that way.
So I've seen all these in mykids and I think maybe some of
us, as we're thinking throughour kids or our students, we
might see that too.
But being able to have themstep up on that ladder and say,
hey, this is the step I feelreally, really confident in.
(09:21):
I'm going to then use this towork on public speaking, for
example, and being able to kindoutline or prepare in a way that
they felt comfortable with.
Maybe it's drawing their speechin tiny little cartoons that
kind of go step by step.
I have one child who will dothat for days if I let her.
I've got another one who wantsto just tell me and tell me, and
(09:44):
tell me, and he does not wantto edit himself.
That's fine for now.
We'll start editing ourselveslater and figure out how to be a
little bit more concise withour words, right?
And then I've got another onewho just wants to soak it in and
then share in written form, andso there's there's so many
different ways that we can dothis, but being able to give
them the tools to say hey, I'mreally good at this part, I'm
(10:06):
going to use this to do thistask that we all have to have to
do.
But the lead up is going tolook different.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Gotcha.
Okay.
So you mentioned you know thosekids that, especially when
they're really obsessed withsomething and they want to share
.
And you mentioned you said telland tell and tell.
Right, that is a communicationskill that our kids have to
learn at some point too.
Like you said how to be moreconcise or how to judge the room
right.
Have you lost people?
Have you gone too much?
(10:32):
Basically telling them, at somepoint you have to stop talking
and let somebody else talk,right, that is a hard skill to
learn from, I mean.
I struggle with that right.
But how would you suggestapproaching that with our kids,
because we don't want them toshut down, right, but we want
them to be aware of theirsurroundings and the other
people in the communication?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Exactly, and I think mirroring is one of those things
reflecting back what we'refeeling to them and what they're
giving us.
Wow, that's a lot.
That's a lot, but there has tobe that safe space.
So this is where I think a lotof families might lean toward
outsourcing when it comes tothis moment, because there is
(11:16):
this level of rapport that needsto be there and if your
parent-child relationship isreally going to struggle under
that pressure, perhaps go takeclass with some of your amazing
teachers, because that isdefinitely a step that feels
really big.
But if you've got thatrelationship, that rapport,
reflect that back to them.
Hey, can I tell you somethingthat I noticed from there when
(11:37):
you started talking about thisexample, or when you started
giving this example, your fifthexample, that just felt like I
already kind of knew what youwere saying.
Which ones do you think wecould eliminate from your list
of examples and which really,you know, demonstrate your point
best?
Which evidence can we draw onthat would best support your
point?
Okay, that's something thatwe're affirming that they've
(11:59):
already gotten something rightin there and there are a few
things that are right, but somethings are lesser and we can get
rid of those lesser things.
I would also say, like havingthem record themselves is really
helpful, because then they getbored watching themselves and
they'll go, wow, I don't think Ineed to talk that much and so
(12:19):
figuring out, great, what couldwe cut out?
And sometimes we think of thismy older daughter loves editing.
She's seen me edit stuff forYouTube and so she'll go, hey, I
want to learn how to do that,and so I taught her and now
she's the one doing that for herown videos, which is really
cool.
But for the kids who maybearen't of age or aren't
interested in doing that videotype editing, um, just a quick,
(12:42):
simple phone video and showingit back to them, that is
something really, reallypowerful.
Um, I think another thing iswhen kids are obsessed, they
will go to a level of detail onMinecraft, on historical topics,
just these areas of obsessionthat we might see come up over
and over again.
They'll just be a little bitheavy-handed with it, and so
(13:07):
I'll kind of bring them back toan imaginary audience.
I'll go, hey, I love World WarII too, but let's think about
dad Dad.
Hey, I love World War II too,but let's think about dad.
Dad could care less about WorldWar II.
Let's imagine that you'representing to him what would he
know he may not know about Xevent.
Let's explain to him what thiswould be.
So giving them anotherimaginary audience and, if
possible, bringing in thataudience and having them sit
(13:28):
through and be like, no, Ididn't get any of that, I don't
know.
Giving them a little bit ofreal-time feedback would be
really, really helpful there.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
I love it.
I love it, and that's obviouslya hard thing that we the last
thing we want to do is make themnot want to communicate with us
, right, but at the same time,we have to teach them that this
is a communication skill, andjust because you want to talk
about it for 10 minutes doesn'tmean everybody else wants to
listen to it for 10 minutes.
But at the same time, right asparents, that's our job, right
(13:57):
Is to listen to things that theycare about, even if we don't
understand it, right?
Yeah, exactly exactly.
What other kind of tips do youhave for parents who either know
that they have two e-kids or,after hearing this, they're
thinking you know what thissounds like, my child, whether
(14:17):
it's building communicationskills or just any other kind of
social skills.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
What are some things that we can do at home to really
support them?
Sure, we've talked about thisbefore, but I love having my
kids tell me jokes.
To be like the gatekeeper here,I'm going to open the door.
If you tell me a joke and ifyou can get the right timing in
there, you can get the rightpauses in there.
That's really fun to do.
Um, making it really on theirlevel, um, you know, bringing in
different things that they hadto do anyway.
(14:41):
Um, let's see, asking theirgrandmother, or letting their
grandmother know in a graciousway, what they would like for
their birthday or Christmas orwhatever.
You know, that's one of thosethings where, hey, here's what
it sounded like when you saidall I want is this, this, this
and this.
You know figuring out, hey,what tone could we use here?
(15:01):
So that's something that's comeup recently.
We just got through birthdayseason in our house.
So, having that sort of thing,that sort of skill in their
pocket, jokes, and I would evensay being able to think about
the essays that they're writingIf you've got upper elementary
and middle schoolers that arestarting to write essays,
figuring out a way to have themcommunicate that to a caring
(15:24):
audience, somebody who reallywants to hear what they have to
say verbally.
For us, we live abroad, we liveoutside the US right now, and
so being able to send a video tograndma and grandpa in the US
and say, hey, this is what we'relearning about, I want to tell
you about it, and they'reliterally reading their five
paragraph essay but grandma andgrandpa feel like they're
getting something really reallyspecial and a peek into their
(15:46):
education and the kids feel like, hey, I'm really sharing this
amazing information and gettinga good bit of affirmation from
it because they love hearing it.
So kind of fun.
Finding those sympatheticaudiences are really important.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Absolutely, and I love you're having them do that
with their essays, because itwould be so easy to be like okay
, you wrote this, you did agreat job, we're done with it.
Let's move on to the next thing.
Instead of taking that extralayer of communication and
practicing what they've alreadyspent time working on, but in a
totally different way, we dothis as adults.
You and I do this all the time,I bet.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I'll write an email to people that I'm working with
and then I'll go talk about iton a YouTube video and then I'll
make other social media contentabout it.
I mean, I just think theseideas are not wasted after one
use.
I want to tell as many peoplein as many different ways about
it.
Why not start early?
It doesn't have to have a bigmotive or agenda behind it, but
it does really amplify the factthat they've done this work and
(16:42):
they can share about it inmultiple ways.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Oh, I love that so much and I feel like even my
kids go to public school and theoptions for them to practice
public speaking are so few andfar between, and it's like if
they're going to do it, theywork on that, they do this one
speech and that's it, as opposedto, I mean like just continuing
to utilize, like I said, thisinformation that they've already
built, they've already workedon and they're interested in and
being able to practice theircommunication in more than one
(17:07):
way.
I think like we should be doingthis all the time.
Right, I think that's afantastic idea Instead of it
just being you're going to writea speech today, you know.
No, you're going to take youressay and make it a speech.
You know I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
And one more thing, to just bring it back to 2E a
little bit, for 2E kids,especially if this is not their
strength, but again, this is askill that they're going to need
.
Space it out, space it out,let's make.
Main point is going to be doneon Monday.
Point two is going to be doneon Tuesday.
Point three so make it justreal, real bite-sized pieces to
(17:38):
start with and then build it up.
Yeah, the next time we're goingto do our thesis in one day and
all three main points in thenext.
So there's no rush.
If you're doing this out of alove for building, a love for
communication, this is one ofthose things that does not have
to be rushed.
Please don't make your kidshate this.
There are so many ways that wecan make it fun and interesting
(17:58):
and palatable for them, with acool purpose at the end.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah for sure when.
Last thing about the two e-kidshow important is it for you to
have a community thatunderstands some of the unique
learning challenges that youhave and how to support your
kids?
I mean, is that important?
Where do you find thosecommunities and how have you
brought that into yourhomeschooling?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
To be honest, I think families that have gifted kids
number one.
You don't have to be tested toknow that your child is gifted.
If you see some of theseobsessions or these propensities
or just precociousness in them,they can't get enough of
learning.
You start to seek out otherfamilies that are going through
something similar, right, and sothese kids might end up in the
(18:41):
same class.
And if you find a community ofthose people and you've got a 2E
learner, they are so much moreopen to those 2E kids because
they understand.
They understand feeling likethe outsider in their gen ed
classroom.
So I've seen this in some of theclasses that I teach.
I have, you know, let's say, sixgifted kids, highly gifted kids
(19:04):
, in a class we're debating,we're doing critical thinking
and we've got a learner withautism and this kiddo is so
bright.
We were creating like a companyin one of these classes and
they were saying, okay, whowould be great for, like,
managing information in ourcompany?
And like three kids raise theirhand and go, he would, he would
(19:26):
, he would.
This kid would, because he issuch a good, he has like pretty
much instant memory and can justreally recall stuff very easily
, and so he would be a shoo-infor this role, and so just the
fact that they can identifytheir own strengths they've done
the work, they already knowwhat they're pretty good at and
what they're not as good at, andthey'll try to sidestep all
(19:47):
that stuff that they're not asgood at usually because they
don't want to fail.
We need to be careful with that, but the idea of celebrating
their strengths and finding acommunity that celebrates those
strengths, even in our 2E kids,can be really, really rewarding
and very cool.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
When it all comes together, it's really really
cool, and so it's not just asmuch about you having somebody
to connect with and collaboratewith.
It's really much more about thekids having other people that
are just like them.
Right, Because we all want tobe around people that we relate
to right.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Exactly, and I'm not going to be there when they're
in college and they're trying todeal with a lecture or
something that is not theirstyle, but they're going to try
to maybe find like-minded folkswho can kind of piece together
and work together and they'll beable to share their own gifts
with them.
So it's I don't know, there'sso much.
That just goes beyondformulating and strengthening
(20:40):
those academic skills.
One thing that I often comeback to in homeschooling and I
hope that most families would ingeneral, even if you're
homeschooling, even if you'renot homeschooling is what do you
want your child's future spouseto say they loved most about
them?
Is it that they were a statechamp in soccer?
Is it that they were, you know,a straight A student?
(21:01):
Is it that they got ascholarship to this university?
Probably not, hopefully notright.
Hopefully it's their generosity,their kindness, their
willingness to be flexible,right.
There's so many of these otherskills that are going to be
things that speak to theirfuture success, that go way
beyond the classroom, and so forTUI kids, for the general
(21:23):
population, I think that wouldbe a really, really helpful way
to start thinking aboutequipping these kids to go
beyond, not just in theclassroom.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, and I think that's such a good reminder
because obviously that's ourbiggest hope for our kids to
raise healthy, happy, kindpeople, right.
But sometimes we get so caughtup in the day-to-day and whether
it's, you know, we're workingon homeschooling or, in my case,
trying to help my kids withmath homework you know we're
working on homeschooling or, inmy case, trying to help my kids
with math homework you know,sometimes we just forget that.
That's, that this is a minoryes, we have to do this, but
(21:51):
this is, this is not our endgoal.
So, exactly, exactly.
Well, melissa, you were alwaysso enlightening.
Is there anything else that youwant to share?
Anything we didn't chat aboutthat you think that our audience
would be interested in knowing.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I just want people to remember that their child has a
gifted area and I think thatwould be a really good thing to
start taking a step toward.
And if you're thinking oflistening to this during the
summer or maybe before theschool year starts, and you're
thinking how can I really makethis school year a winner for my
child, I think starting withyourself understanding that
there are lots of different waysthat your child is going to
show what they know and whatthey're excited about and what
(22:31):
they're really good at, andleaning into those.
And if they happen to be too E,then let them kind of soar and
have that buffet.
I think that would be a reallycool way to have them
demonstrate their learning asmuch as you're able, whatever
schooling environment they're in.
So there's a lot that we can do.
We just have to take the steps,make the effort.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
We'll link to all your socialsand everything on the show notes
below so you can click rightdown there to connect with
Melissa if you want moreinformation and or any more
insight, things like that.
So again, thanks for being hereand we appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Have a great day Thanks.
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green, and todayMelissa Muir is joining us.
Melissa is an online teacherand a homeschooling mama of four
, and she has a wealth ofknowledge about lots of things
in homeschooling and beyond, sowe're excited to have you here
today.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
So what we're talking about today is twice
exceptional kids or 2E, and howto really help them build
communication skills, but liketaking a big step back because
some people were hearing twiceexceptional, for the first time,
2e.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah, so anytime a learner is considered
exceptional, we've got thingsthat we just need to take into
account.
Right, this could be a learningdisability, a physical
disability, cognitive disability, as well as some giftedness,
and so giftedness kind of mightping off your ears in different
ways.
Right, it might make you thinkof those nerdy kids.
It might make you think of akid who, like, specializes in
(00:54):
something and is super, duper,duper, you know, obsessed with
something.
But all of this kind of comesto a head when we think about
two e-learners who may need someextra support in a few
different ways, as well as anextra challenge in different
ways.
So we just need to take intoaccount different types of
giftedness and different typesof exceptions based on each
learner.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
And is this something that is diagnosed, or how does
that work?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, usually the learning disability would be
diagnosed right.
You might have a child withADHD, a child with autism, a
learner who just has some sortof auditory processing
disability, as well as thingslike dysgraphia and dyscalculia
and dyslexia, and so all thesedifferent things that could play
into how they take in theirlearning and then figuring out
(01:43):
how we can best support them asthey show what they know.
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
And is it important, before we kind of dive into the
communication side of things,how important is it for us to
provide the correct learningopportunities for 2E kids,
Because they're not just likeevery other kid?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
right, they're not.
There's so much that we can dohere, but thinking about the
type of gifted learner that theyare, I'll get into a few here.
One might be the kid who justwants to check all the boxes is
super academic, right.
This is the type of kid wemight think of when we think of
gifted learners.
There are others, though.
(02:21):
We might have the kid who'skind of flying under the radar.
They might be a little bit of arebel in class.
They do not want to follow theinstructions that you're giving
them.
They are ready to go their ownway, and if you don't let them,
they are going to crumble andshut down and really not perform
in class, which might make youthink, oh, they don't get it.
They don't know, they got it 10minutes before everybody else
(02:41):
did, they're just bored.
We've also got, I like to thinkof, like mean girls Remember
Katie and mean girls the maincharacter right.
Lindsay Lohan, who's like supergood at math, but she does not
want to be good at math becauseit's not cool to be good at math
.
So she's flying under the radar.
She is gifted at math but sheis going to make herself not
look good at math just to fit in.
A lot of middle school girlsfit into this category, although
(03:03):
that is not the only type ofkid who's going to fit into this
category.
So, thinking about that, andthen we've got kids who are like
super focused on one thingright.
The rest of their academicendeavors they're going to get
by on it, they'll be okay.
But they are either supervisually artistically gifted
right.
They're going to paint youbeautiful masterpieces, they're
(03:23):
going to create beautiful piecesof music, they're going to
engineer something ridiculousright or they're going to
program.
I mean we need to start takinginto account these kids who have
been coding, because thankfully, we've got great resources now
for our kids to learn coding andthings like that.
They might be able to whip up agame or an app or something
simple as a 10-year-old Whoa,that's really cool.
We need to foster that, and sofiguring out ways to support our
(03:46):
learners in those two-waysituations is super, duper
important.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Thank you for breaking that down, because I
think you're exactly right.
When you say gifted, we imaginethe first scenario that you
talked about, not the others.
So I'm glad you broke that down, because I'm sure some people
are thinking, oh, that soundsfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I think that's important because every kid is
gifted in some way.
If you want to like go further,you can do a quick, open
another tab on wherever you'relistening to this and look up
Howard Gardner's theory ofmultiple intelligences.
And we've got nature smart.
We've got bodily kinesthetic.
We've got music intrapersonalknowing ourselves and our
emotions that bodily kinesthetic, we've got music intrapersonal
knowing ourselves and ouremotions interpersonal, being
able to navigate thoserelationships.
So kids have one, two, three,four areas of giftedness,
(04:36):
intelligence, right, and so wecan latch onto that and see how
well they could demonstrate thatknowledge.
So sorry to interrupt, but thatis going to be something for
every single kid.
So hopefully you hear that andyou go oh yeah, I see that in my
kiddo.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, absolutely no.
I'm so glad you said thatbecause, like I said, this is
news to me.
I'm learning about this asyou're explaining it, so that's
great.
Well, so let's talk about howare we going to build
communication skills,particularly in our 2E kids.
What kind of challenges do wesee and how can we kind of
overcome those that we're not,we wouldn't see in just a normal
environment?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yeah, so you know, in in all of this it's going to
depend on the learner, right?
It's going to depend on um thesecond exception, if we're
assuming that they're gifted.
The second exception is goingto um have a big role in how
they show their communicate andhow they demonstrate their
communication skills here, um,but I think a lot of it is going
to be um skills here.
(05:26):
But I think a lot of it isgoing to be monitoring the
amount of anxiety that we'reproducing in a situation.
We want to lower that anxiety,give them scaffolding to work on
this in a way that makes themfeel comfortable and then, if
they do find something that theyare super passionate about,
something that they're superobsessed with I keep saying that
, but this is a really commoncharacteristic in gifted kids
they will be obsessed withreading or a certain area of
(05:48):
history.
I've got one of my kids couldcare less about reading and we
do a lot of like scaffoldingwith her reading skills.
But she wants to devoureverything about World War II,
which makes my heart happybecause I love learning about
World War II and I still almostexclusively read historical
fiction about World War IIbecause it's fascinating.
But there's that area ofintense interest that if you see
(06:14):
that great, go with it, go downthe rabbit trail with them and
then take these little detours.
Hey, today we're going to trywriting a speech about it.
Today we're going to have adebate, you and me.
Maybe next week you have adebate with another friend or a
sibling about this.
Then we're going to kind ofmove into writing about it.
We're going to get into maybesome graphic or drawing areas
(06:36):
with this.
So giving them all the chancesto demonstrate what they know.
There's a lot of if writing orthe physical act of writing is a
challenge for some kids.
There's plenty of ways that youcan do this online with tools.
One of my favorites is Nearpod.
You can make a free account touse and come up with these
different activities for yourkid to demonstrate what they
(06:58):
know.
And they've got like free youknow lessons pre-made for you.
So one of my favorite thingsthat we use in our homeschool as
well.
But you can take those otherresources and just present them.
Think of it as like a buffetand you're going to hit all
those skills at some point.
But they might devour themacaroni and cheese on a level
that does not compare to thebroccoli salad right and so kind
(07:21):
of figuring out what theyreally love and giving them more
opportunities to take part.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And it sounds like.
Why would we not do that witheducation in general for all
kids?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I have titled and written and given so many talks
that say gifted education,gifted style education for all,
because it's just like duh.
This feels like common sense tobe able to give all learners
the chance to pick and chooseand then go with what they need.
You know, I loved my pre-calteacher but I have not used
pre-cal since 10th grade andthank you very much for that.
(07:54):
But I would have really beenserved by, you know, a financial
literacy class or a marketingclass or whatever.
So find what they're reallyinterested in and let them sort
that.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
One of the things you mentioned at the very beginning
was really managing anxietylevels right.
And especially when we'retalking communications or any
form of public speaking right,anxiety levels are going to go
through the roof for most peoplein those scenarios.
Yet it's something that we haveto be able to do.
So how do we manage that?
How do we know when we stillneed to push them?
(08:26):
Because, you know, some thingsthat we learn how to do are
uncomfortable, but we still haveto learn them.
But how do we do that in a waythat benefits our kids instead
of pushes them away from it?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, I think again, once you know what they're
interested in or what they'regood at, help them find their
strengths and let them gosh.
Let them name their strengthshey, I felt really good at that.
Maybe once in a while, bring upthree things that they've done.
Hey, which one felt easiest toyou?
Let them kind of self-evaluateand say, hey, this one felt
(08:59):
great to me because I reallyloved being on camera, because I
really loved drawing this thingthat I know a lot about,
because I really lovedexplaining and telling you
something you didn't know,because I felt really important
that way.
So I've seen all these in mykids and I think maybe some of
us, as we're thinking throughour kids or our students, we
might see that too.
But being able to have themstep up on that ladder and say,
hey, this is the step I feelreally, really confident in.
(09:21):
I'm going to then use this towork on public speaking, for
example, and being able to kindoutline or prepare in a way that
they felt comfortable with.
Maybe it's drawing their speechin tiny little cartoons that
kind of go step by step.
I have one child who will dothat for days if I let her.
I've got another one who wantsto just tell me and tell me, and
(09:44):
tell me, and he does not wantto edit himself.
That's fine for now.
We'll start editing ourselveslater and figure out how to be a
little bit more concise withour words, right?
And then I've got another onewho just wants to soak it in and
then share in written form, andso there's there's so many
different ways that we can dothis, but being able to give
them the tools to say hey, I'mreally good at this part, I'm
(10:06):
going to use this to do thistask that we all have to have to
do.
But the lead up is going tolook different.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Gotcha.
Okay.
So you mentioned you know thosekids that, especially when
they're really obsessed withsomething and they want to share
.
And you mentioned you said telland tell and tell.
Right, that is a communicationskill that our kids have to
learn at some point too.
Like you said how to be moreconcise or how to judge the room
right.
Have you lost people?
Have you gone too much?
(10:32):
Basically telling them, at somepoint you have to stop talking
and let somebody else talk,right, that is a hard skill to
learn from, I mean.
I struggle with that right.
But how would you suggestapproaching that with our kids,
because we don't want them toshut down, right, but we want
them to be aware of theirsurroundings and the other
people in the communication?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Exactly, and I think mirroring is one of those things
reflecting back what we'refeeling to them and what they're
giving us.
Wow, that's a lot.
That's a lot, but there has tobe that safe space.
So this is where I think a lotof families might lean toward
outsourcing when it comes tothis moment, because there is
(11:16):
this level of rapport that needsto be there and if your
parent-child relationship isreally going to struggle under
that pressure, perhaps go takeclass with some of your amazing
teachers, because that isdefinitely a step that feels
really big.
But if you've got thatrelationship, that rapport,
reflect that back to them.
Hey, can I tell you somethingthat I noticed from there when
(11:37):
you started talking about thisexample, or when you started
giving this example, your fifthexample, that just felt like I
already kind of knew what youwere saying.
Which ones do you think wecould eliminate from your list
of examples and which really,you know, demonstrate your point
best?
Which evidence can we draw onthat would best support your
point?
Okay, that's something thatwe're affirming that they've
(11:59):
already gotten something rightin there and there are a few
things that are right, but somethings are lesser and we can get
rid of those lesser things.
I would also say, like havingthem record themselves is really
helpful, because then they getbored watching themselves and
they'll go, wow, I don't think Ineed to talk that much and so
(12:19):
figuring out, great, what couldwe cut out?
And sometimes we think of thismy older daughter loves editing.
She's seen me edit stuff forYouTube and so she'll go, hey, I
want to learn how to do that,and so I taught her and now
she's the one doing that for herown videos, which is really
cool.
But for the kids who maybearen't of age or aren't
interested in doing that videotype editing, um, just a quick,
(12:42):
simple phone video and showingit back to them, that is
something really, reallypowerful.
Um, I think another thing iswhen kids are obsessed, they
will go to a level of detail onMinecraft, on historical topics,
just these areas of obsessionthat we might see come up over
and over again.
They'll just be a little bitheavy-handed with it, and so
(13:07):
I'll kind of bring them back toan imaginary audience.
I'll go, hey, I love World WarII too, but let's think about
dad Dad.
Hey, I love World War II too,but let's think about dad.
Dad could care less about WorldWar II.
Let's imagine that you'representing to him what would he
know he may not know about Xevent.
Let's explain to him what thiswould be.
So giving them anotherimaginary audience and, if
possible, bringing in thataudience and having them sit
(13:28):
through and be like, no, Ididn't get any of that, I don't
know.
Giving them a little bit ofreal-time feedback would be
really, really helpful there.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
I love it.
I love it, and that's obviouslya hard thing that we the last
thing we want to do is make themnot want to communicate with us
, right, but at the same time,we have to teach them that this
is a communication skill, andjust because you want to talk
about it for 10 minutes doesn'tmean everybody else wants to
listen to it for 10 minutes.
But at the same time, right asparents, that's our job, right
(13:57):
Is to listen to things that theycare about, even if we don't
understand it, right?
Yeah, exactly exactly.
What other kind of tips do youhave for parents who either know
that they have two e-kids or,after hearing this, they're
thinking you know what thissounds like, my child, whether
(14:17):
it's building communicationskills or just any other kind of
social skills.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
What are some things that we can do at home to really
support them?
Sure, we've talked about thisbefore, but I love having my
kids tell me jokes.
To be like the gatekeeper here,I'm going to open the door.
If you tell me a joke and ifyou can get the right timing in
there, you can get the rightpauses in there.
That's really fun to do.
Um, making it really on theirlevel, um, you know, bringing in
different things that they hadto do anyway.
(14:41):
Um, let's see, asking theirgrandmother, or letting their
grandmother know in a graciousway, what they would like for
their birthday or Christmas orwhatever.
You know, that's one of thosethings where, hey, here's what
it sounded like when you saidall I want is this, this, this
and this.
You know figuring out, hey,what tone could we use here?
(15:01):
So that's something that's comeup recently.
We just got through birthdayseason in our house.
So, having that sort of thing,that sort of skill in their
pocket, jokes, and I would evensay being able to think about
the essays that they're writingIf you've got upper elementary
and middle schoolers that arestarting to write essays,
figuring out a way to have themcommunicate that to a caring
(15:24):
audience, somebody who reallywants to hear what they have to
say verbally.
For us, we live abroad, we liveoutside the US right now, and
so being able to send a video tograndma and grandpa in the US
and say, hey, this is what we'relearning about, I want to tell
you about it, and they'reliterally reading their five
paragraph essay but grandma andgrandpa feel like they're
getting something really reallyspecial and a peek into their
(15:46):
education and the kids feel like, hey, I'm really sharing this
amazing information and gettinga good bit of affirmation from
it because they love hearing it.
So kind of fun.
Finding those sympatheticaudiences are really important.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Absolutely, and I love you're having them do that
with their essays, because itwould be so easy to be like okay
, you wrote this, you did agreat job, we're done with it.
Let's move on to the next thing.
Instead of taking that extralayer of communication and
practicing what they've alreadyspent time working on, but in a
totally different way, we dothis as adults.
You and I do this all the time,I bet.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I'll write an email to people that I'm working with
and then I'll go talk about iton a YouTube video and then I'll
make other social media contentabout it.
I mean, I just think theseideas are not wasted after one
use.
I want to tell as many peoplein as many different ways about
it.
Why not start early?
It doesn't have to have a bigmotive or agenda behind it, but
it does really amplify the factthat they've done this work and
(16:42):
they can share about it inmultiple ways.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Oh, I love that so much and I feel like even my
kids go to public school and theoptions for them to practice
public speaking are so few andfar between, and it's like if
they're going to do it, theywork on that, they do this one
speech and that's it, as opposedto, I mean like just continuing
to utilize, like I said, thisinformation that they've already
built, they've already workedon and they're interested in and
being able to practice theircommunication in more than one
(17:07):
way.
I think like we should be doingthis all the time.
Right, I think that's afantastic idea Instead of it
just being you're going to writea speech today, you know.
No, you're going to take youressay and make it a speech.
You know I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
And one more thing, to just bring it back to 2E a
little bit, for 2E kids,especially if this is not their
strength, but again, this is askill that they're going to need
.
Space it out, space it out,let's make.
Main point is going to be doneon Monday.
Point two is going to be doneon Tuesday.
Point three so make it justreal, real bite-sized pieces to
(17:38):
start with and then build it up.
Yeah, the next time we're goingto do our thesis in one day and
all three main points in thenext.
So there's no rush.
If you're doing this out of alove for building, a love for
communication, this is one ofthose things that does not have
to be rushed.
Please don't make your kidshate this.
There are so many ways that wecan make it fun and interesting
(17:58):
and palatable for them, with acool purpose at the end.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah for sure when.
Last thing about the two e-kidshow important is it for you to
have a community thatunderstands some of the unique
learning challenges that youhave and how to support your
kids?
I mean, is that important?
Where do you find thosecommunities and how have you
brought that into yourhomeschooling?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
To be honest, I think families that have gifted kids
number one.
You don't have to be tested toknow that your child is gifted.
If you see some of theseobsessions or these propensities
or just precociousness in them,they can't get enough of
learning.
You start to seek out otherfamilies that are going through
something similar, right, and sothese kids might end up in the
(18:41):
same class.
And if you find a community ofthose people and you've got a 2E
learner, they are so much moreopen to those 2E kids because
they understand.
They understand feeling likethe outsider in their gen ed
classroom.
So I've seen this in some of theclasses that I teach.
I have, you know, let's say, sixgifted kids, highly gifted kids
(19:04):
, in a class we're debating,we're doing critical thinking
and we've got a learner withautism and this kiddo is so
bright.
We were creating like a companyin one of these classes and
they were saying, okay, whowould be great for, like,
managing information in ourcompany?
And like three kids raise theirhand and go, he would, he would
(19:26):
, he would.
This kid would, because he issuch a good, he has like pretty
much instant memory and can justreally recall stuff very easily
, and so he would be a shoo-infor this role, and so just the
fact that they can identifytheir own strengths they've done
the work, they already knowwhat they're pretty good at and
what they're not as good at, andthey'll try to sidestep all
(19:47):
that stuff that they're not asgood at usually because they
don't want to fail.
We need to be careful with that, but the idea of celebrating
their strengths and finding acommunity that celebrates those
strengths, even in our 2E kids,can be really, really rewarding
and very cool.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
When it all comes together, it's really really
cool, and so it's not just asmuch about you having somebody
to connect with and collaboratewith.
It's really much more about thekids having other people that
are just like them.
Right, Because we all want tobe around people that we relate
to right.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Exactly, and I'm not going to be there when they're
in college and they're trying todeal with a lecture or
something that is not theirstyle, but they're going to try
to maybe find like-minded folkswho can kind of piece together
and work together and they'll beable to share their own gifts
with them.
So it's I don't know, there'sso much.
That just goes beyondformulating and strengthening
(20:40):
those academic skills.
One thing that I often comeback to in homeschooling and I
hope that most families would ingeneral, even if you're
homeschooling, even if you'renot homeschooling is what do you
want your child's future spouseto say they loved most about
them?
Is it that they were a statechamp in soccer?
Is it that they were, you know,a straight A student?
(21:01):
Is it that they got ascholarship to this university?
Probably not, hopefully notright.
Hopefully it's their generosity,their kindness, their
willingness to be flexible,right.
There's so many of these otherskills that are going to be
things that speak to theirfuture success, that go way
beyond the classroom, and so forTUI kids, for the general
(21:23):
population, I think that wouldbe a really, really helpful way
to start thinking aboutequipping these kids to go
beyond, not just in theclassroom.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, and I think that's such a good reminder
because obviously that's ourbiggest hope for our kids to
raise healthy, happy, kindpeople, right.
But sometimes we get so caughtup in the day-to-day and whether
it's, you know, we're workingon homeschooling or, in my case,
trying to help my kids withmath homework you know we're
working on homeschooling or, inmy case, trying to help my kids
with math homework you know,sometimes we just forget that.
That's, that this is a minoryes, we have to do this, but
(21:51):
this is, this is not our endgoal.
So, exactly, exactly.
Well, melissa, you were alwaysso enlightening.
Is there anything else that youwant to share?
Anything we didn't chat aboutthat you think that our audience
would be interested in knowing.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I just want people to remember that their child has a
gifted area and I think thatwould be a really good thing to
start taking a step toward.
And if you're thinking oflistening to this during the
summer or maybe before theschool year starts, and you're
thinking how can I really makethis school year a winner for my
child, I think starting withyourself understanding that
there are lots of different waysthat your child is going to
show what they know and whatthey're excited about and what
(22:31):
they're really good at, andleaning into those.
And if they happen to be too E,then let them kind of soar and
have that buffet.
I think that would be a reallycool way to have them
demonstrate their learning asmuch as you're able, whatever
schooling environment they're in.
So there's a lot that we can do.
We just have to take the steps,make the effort.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
We'll link to all your socialsand everything on the show notes
below so you can click rightdown there to connect with
Melissa if you want moreinformation and or any more
insight, things like that.
So again, thanks for being hereand we appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Have a great day Thanks.
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