December 16, 2024 • 33 mins
Unlock the secrets to raising confident and informed children with our guest, Dr. Tina Shermer Sellers, a leading authority on sex and gender issues. By the end of our conversation, you'll be equipped to break free from cycles of inherited shame and silence surrounding sexuality education. We emphasize the necessity of initiating age-appropriate conversations with your kids early on, drawing parallels to the importance of basic health and safety lessons. Dr. Tina offers invaluable insights into fostering body autonomy, consent, and respect in your child, empowering them to navigate a complex world with self-awareness and assurance.
Join us as we highlight the transformative power of comprehensive sex education in strengthening family bonds and promoting safer choices. Explore how open and honest dialogue about relationships, sexuality, and boundaries can shield your children from misinformation and exploitation. Discover practical advice for overcoming challenges in starting these conversations and learn from diverse cultural approaches, including insights from Dr. Tina's personal experiences. With recommended resources like the "Shameless Parenting" book, we aim to provide you with the tools to nurture self-worth and mutual respect in your child's relationships, preparing them for a future of informed and healthy decisions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Speak Out Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green, andtoday's guest is Dr Tina Shermer
Sellers.
Dr Tina is a licensed sex andgender feminist, psychotherapist
, bestselling author, professorand media personality, and her
latest book is called ShamelessParenting Everything you Need to
Raise Shame-Free, confidentKids and Heal your Shame Too,
(00:22):
and so that's what we're kind offocused on today.
You know, here at Speak OutStand Out, we talk about ways to
build confidence andcommunication skills in our kids
, and one of the last things Ithink that most of us want to
really talk about with our kidsis sex, and that's what we're
here to talk about today.
Dr Tina, thanks for being herewith us, first and foremost.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
So you know, I don't know what it was like when you
were growing up, but I feel likethe topic of sex growing up was
either you were sat down andhad the birds and the bees
conversation or it was just kindof avoided.
And it seems like we're hearingand obviously your profession
is geared towards helping usstop avoiding those
conversations.
And is that important first ofall, and why?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, it's absolutely important.
I want to kind of compare it tocan you imagine being, I don't
know hesitant to talk abouthealth and wellness with your
kids and avoiding it?
Avoiding what you would say toa two-year-old, avoiding what
you'd say to a four-year-old?
(01:29):
You wouldn't say anything whenthey're putting sand in their
mouth.
You wouldn't say anything whenthey're wanting to eat candy all
the time.
You wouldn't say anything aboutlooking both ways before you
cross the street.
It just felt too uncomfortableand so you didn't say anything
at all until they're about readyto drive a car.
And then you get really scaredand you're like, okay, we got to
(01:50):
talk about it, you got to sitdown and you got to listen and
you give this one 100 minutepainful conversation when
they're in an age wherelistening like that really is
difficult for themdevelopmentally, like they are
really wanting to listen tothemselves, listen to their peer
group, and the download youneed to have done, you need to
(02:11):
have done before the age of 13.
I mean really like of mostthings, like what safety is,
what health and wellness is,what kindness is, what I mean,
just a whole lot of things.
But you didn't because you wereafraid to, because that's how
your parents were and yourgrandparents were and everyone
else.
You know, right.
But if you think about the rolethat sexuality plays in our
(02:35):
life, it usually is aboutcreating connection and pleasure
with somebody that you careabout, as well as having a good
relationship with connection andpleasure for yourself, right,
how you appreciate connectionand pleasure in your own life,
connection to yourself.
You know yourself, you careabout yourself, you love
(02:56):
yourself, right, and youappreciate the beauty and
pleasure that's in the world.
You appreciate that you'regrateful for a body that allows
you to take it in on all fivesenses, right.
So that's in the world.
You appreciate that You'regrateful for a body that allows
you to take it in on all fivesenses, right.
So that's what sexuality is inits fullest sense.
It's a relational intelligence,it's an emotional intelligence,
it's a social intelligence andit's a body intelligence, right.
(03:20):
And we need to be teaching whatis age appropriate, from the
time they find their genitals,which is usually about 11 months
old, and they're getting theirdiaper changed, right, or
they're in the tub from thereall the way forward.
So what are 11 month old, 12month old, 18 month old kids
doing there?
They've got people in theirlife labeling their world.
You know head, shoulders, kneesand toes right, knees and toes,
(03:44):
knees and toes.
We're that's a car, that's acat, that's a dog right when
they find their genitals, theyneed somebody there saying, yeah
, that's your penis, it's afabulous part of your body, or
yep, that's your vulva, it's afabulous part of your body.
Let's finish diapering you.
Let's finish drying you offwhatever it is, and you give
them developmentally what theyneed.
That includes things like bodyautonomy.
(04:05):
Who's in charge of your body?
Can anybody touch your body?
Do you get to say who touchesyour body?
What about other people?
Do they get to be in charge oftheir body?
Do you get to do whatever youwant to their body?
You're teaching about autonomy.
You're teaching about consentchoice you have choice, they
(04:26):
have choice.
We learn to respect eachother's choices.
If you're ever uncomfortable,you come to me or let's talk
about the safe people in yourlife that you could come to If
anybody older or bigger or morethreatening doesn't listen to
you and what your choice isabout you and your body doesn't
listen to you and what yourchoice is about you and your
(04:47):
body.
Right, you're giving thesethings at age appropriate ways.
You know the five and six yearold that are curious about each
other's bodies.
Right, you're giving them whatthey need there, you know, and
all the way along.
But because we didn't get that,most people less than 5% of
people in the U?
S did not get that.
Then what they do insidethemselves as they go, when they
(05:08):
get walked in on, or when theirchild finds their genitals, or
when they walk in on their kidsexamining each other or whatever
, they go like this and I'malways saying, honey, that's
just the shame you acquired frompeople who loved you very much
but didn't know how to give thisto you.
Put your hand on your heart andtell yourself you're okay.
That's just shame and you'vegot some learning to do to
(05:32):
rewrite the legacy.
So you don't pass on the legacyof shame.
You pass on the legacy ofknowledge.
You know this is your body.
All parts of your body aregreat Elbows, noses, vulvas,
genitals, all of it.
But they all have differentlike purposes and they need to
be cared for differently andwe're going to teach you about
it along the way.
And some parts we call moreprivate because they're kind of
(05:55):
special to us, and so you get tobe in charge of those, just
like you get to be in charge ofanybody who grabs your nose,
you're going to be in charge ofthat too, all parts of your body
.
So we are teaching all of thosethings.
And most parents go okay, Iknow what I don't want to do,
because I don't want to do whatwas done to me, but I don't know
what to do.
And that's how ShamelessParenting.
(06:15):
The book got written.
I'm like don't worry, I've beenteaching this to physicians and
therapists for 30 years.
I will write a book that goesbirth to two, two to four, four
to six, all the way up to 18.
Each section is going to sayhere's what, emotionally, kids
are, the tasks they're trying toaccomplish developmentally.
Here's the behavioral thingsthey're often doing.
(06:37):
Here's the body curiositiesthey often are having.
How does that when they startto do that?
How does that feel when youimagine that?
And if you feel that inside ofyou, okay, I just want you to
love up on yourself and thenknow that you've got some
learning to do this.
And then I tell you this iswhat they need from you, and I
(06:59):
give exactly what that is.
And then I'm like here are thetop books for kids at that age
and the top books for parents atthat age and the top websites.
And I say to parents you onlyneed to be two years ahead of
your kid.
So get to where they are now,read up to where they are now,
get all those books, cause, ifyou like, if you've got
teenagers, I tell people, go tothe library and get the kid
(07:22):
books, get them all and leavethem around the house and be
like I'm learning things.
Just say to them I'm learningthings.
I realized I didn't know whenyou were little.
So I'm getting the books andreading them and I'd love for
you to read these too.
They're kid books.
But there's things that wedidn't talk about.
I think enough, and I wish wedid, but I didn't know.
(07:42):
So you know I'm always doingthe best I can.
So you know, here they are, andthen get yourself caught up and
then if there are things youneed to address, then I'm like,
if you've got teenagers, thensay to them okay, there's
something I need to talk to youabout.
It feels really important, butit's going to be uncomfortable,
so I'm going to try to do it in60 seconds or less.
So we're both going to take abig breath and then I'm going to
(08:03):
go like boom, boom, boom, boom,boom, because I do want you to
hear it from me and not justfrom your friends.
Okay, cause I love you, we'regoing to both live through this,
and you just call it for whatit is and you just do it.
You know what I've heard frompeople who are older, like in
their twenties and thirties andon.
You're like my parent did thatfor me and even though it was
(08:24):
uncomfortable and I rolled myeyes the entire time, I'm really
glad they did.
Yeah, so, um, so, literally I'mgoing to hold your hand all the
way through it and just make itreally easy for you.
And then what's the mostexciting thing about this is
that you can change the legacyin one generation, like,
literally, by doing it differentwith your own kids.
(08:44):
Even late, doing it different,you will, if you're fortunate
enough, watch them do itdifferent with theirs.
Yeah, yeah, and that is worthit for sure, right?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Because I mean, no matter how old your kids are I
feel like every parent isprobably already you know you
focus on the things.
Oh, I wish I would have donethis differently when they were
little, even if they're babies,you know.
I wish I would have done thisdifferently last week, so to be
able to learn, you know andchange and then see them, you
know, take the good parts of ourparenting.
But I hear that what you saidabout having it broken down by
(09:18):
like here's what to expect,here's what to do, I mean, how
amazing would it be if we hadthat for every aspect of
parenting.
But that's gotta be soimportant for this aspect.
That seems so difficult.
And my, my kids are 11 and 15now and, um, and I will say we
have really not.
Well, my husband's a PE teacherand a health teacher, so he has
(09:38):
to actually have theconversation with public school
kids, so he's kind of in chargeof having that conversation, as
it needs to, with my kids.
But I remember when my oldesthe was probably six, he walked
in and just out of the blue hesaid what's sex?
And my reaction was I don't know, that's what I told him,
because I was so unprepared.
(10:00):
It was out of the blue, sounprepared.
And like you said, I just kindof froze because I I hadn't
considered that I'm going toneed to answer these questions
ever at that point you know,right, and probably no one did
that for you at six, you know,like when you asked the question
or whatever, there wasn'tsomebody.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Go well, what a great question.
And it's such a great question,but I don't know exactly what
you're wanting to know.
So can you tell me what youwant to know exactly, cause I
don't want to like it can be acomplicated subject, I don't
want to go into all of it.
What do you want?
Well, I mean, my friend,so-and-so, said that they went
to the zoo one day and thentheir mom, who had this big
belly, came home with the babyand that they had just gotten it
(10:39):
, you know, from us, from thehospital, and it didn't make a
lot of sense to me.
So I just thought I got to askmy mom you know, you got it.
You find out from them.
What is it they're reallywanting to know?
So you want to know where,where they come from.
Like, where do they come from?
From the body, or does thatmake sense?
I'll just give you the littleanswer and then, if you want
more, you just tell me what moreyou want, and so that way we're
(11:06):
just giving them just what theywant, because if we go on too
long, they're going to glassover and go off and play Right.
So we just give them what theywant and what's, and they are
the ones that know what'sdevelopmentally appropriate for
them.
They'll tell you, you know like.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I just want this yeah , letting them guide the
conversation.
Yeah, like in that instance wedidn't have to sit down and have
the full discussion.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
No, but I could have answered his question in some
way.
Yeah, absolutely.
And six is right on.
I mean, that is right whenthey're like starting to ask the
question, you know, and, and soyou.
But you do want to know exactlywhat they want to, what they
are wanting to understand aboutit.
You know, and the that question, or the, the answer to the
question you're asking, like,what exactly do you want to know
(11:44):
?
You'll see, we'll get morecomplex as they get older.
Well, I just don't understandhow the baby gets in there to
begin with.
Okay, so you want to know howit even starts to grow?
Well, then, let's get out abook and I'll explain all that
part.
You know, and and so you cankind of you know, get they're
(12:07):
the ones that will tell you whatmore they need to make it fit
their real questions you know asthey're going, yeah, but
there's a lot of other thingsthat we want to be teaching
along the way and a lot of it iswhen we think of, like
kindergarten to third grade orso, social, like aid.
It's really a lot of emotionaland relational intelligence.
You know, skills, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, and I think that you know it's so easy to
avoid, you know, uncomfortableconversations, but now that
we're having this conversation,I'm thinking about how, you know
, I want my kids to know thatthey can ask me anything about
anything, and especially ifthey're ever in a situation that
they don't understand or aren'tcomfortable with that they
could come.
Understand or aren'tcomfortable with that, they
(12:45):
could come and talk to us aboutthat.
So what do you say, though Imean, to those like me who my
kids are 11 and 15, we've nothad this conversation.
I'm sure my kids know, but wehaven't had the conversation.
But what do you say to somebodywho has not broached this
subject at all?
How do we do that?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, I mean honestly , I would get the Shameless
Parenting book and for anybodythat works with kids, there's a
way you can get them as handoutsbirth to two, two to four.
If you're like, yeah, I'mworking only with junior high
kids, you can go on my websiteand there's a shop and you can
get just the handouts, if thatmakes life easier for you.
(13:24):
But really it's, I don't know.
I just think you need to try to.
I would, I would say, own first.
You know what I'm realizingafter reading some of this stuff
that I haven't covered a lot ofthings with you, and my hunch
is you're getting it at schoolLike you're hearing it from your
(13:46):
friends.
I just want you to know that,when it comes to things like
having to do with how peopletreat each other, how people
touch each other, how peopletouch each other, things around
sexuality, things around whatyou're attracted to, identity,
like how you identify as aperson Do you identify as a
(14:08):
girly girl, or all of that stuffthat's stuff that we can talk
about too, because there's a lotof information out there in the
world that your friends mightbe getting from social media and
other places that might not beaccurate, and what I want to
give you is the actual knowledge, so that you know when you're
talking to people oh, that'strue or you know.
(14:31):
I don't think that's true, andyou can always come back and ask
me, and if I don't know,honestly, I will look it up with
you.
You know, but I want you tofeel equipped, because there are
ways in which we exploit people, because we want them to go,
buy things or do things orwhatever.
(14:51):
Right, and some of that isactually not you're.
You're going to want to knowthat somebody is trying to take
advantage of you, so that youcan be able to say inside
yourself I don't want that, I'mgoing to distance myself from
this situation or from thisperson.
Um, and so you've got myopinion and you've got to be
talking about how exploitationhappens, how people will lie to
(15:14):
get what they want from you.
I mean, we run our economy onthat, yeah, right, we want you
to feel bad about whateveryou're wearing, looking whatever
, so that you buy more things.
Well, we're actually teachingpeople that we can do that we
can exploit for our own purposes.
That's what we're teaching andso kids in their immaturity you
(15:36):
know, not having enough lifeexperience quite yet will do
that to each other.
But we want our children to belike that doesn't feel fair to
me.
I don't want to do that or thatisn't right.
That's what I know.
That actually isn't right.
Providing sex and relationshipand emotional education all of
(15:57):
this what in Sweden they calllife education providing this
along the way equips kids tofeel confident that they know
the difference between this andthat and then be able to stand
up for themselves or get helpRight.
And so it.
You know.
We know that kids that getcomprehensive sex education,
they get involved with sex laterthey make safer sexual choices,
(16:19):
they know how to protectthemselves, they suffer less
assault, they make betterchoices down the road with
relationships that are moreegalitarian.
They're not so in such a hurrybecause they're not trying to
impress.
They actually kind of know thatit's a complex issue and they
want it to go well for thembecause they're having lots of
(16:40):
conversations Sometimes that Ihave this in the book for older
parents or for parents witholder kids.
There's a book called not in myhouse or not not under my roof,
I'm sorry by Amy Shalit and shegrew up in Holland, where they
have comprehensive sex educationas most of the.
Northern European countries do.
And then she came to the U?
S to study grad school and shecouldn't figure out why kids and
(17:01):
parents were so differentaround relationships and
sexuality.
And so she did a did aqualitative study where she
interviewed families, kids andparents in two cities in Holland
and then the same in the U?
S, and then wrote a book abouthow it's done differently, and
it can be shocking to Americanpeople to read that book and be
(17:23):
like kids actually talk to theirparents about all of this stuff
they talk about to theirparents about masturbation.
They talk to their parents aboutliking somebody.
They talk to their parentsabout readiness to touch and
does their parents think theyare their first sexual
experiences are at home and it'sall been talked about ahead of
(17:45):
time.
So these kids have verydifferent experiences.
There's much less hooking upfor no reason.
They want to be treated welland they want to treat people
well.
They want good experiences.
They know about them and sothey seek them and they ask for
guidance.
We know from research that kidswho have comprehensive sex
education with their parentsdescribe themselves as closer to
(18:08):
their parents overall inadolescence.
So you want to be connected toyour kids.
Learn how to do this, becauseyour kids will be like, if my
parents can talk to me aboutthis, I can talk to them about
anything.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right, and that's what?
Oh, that's what, as a mother,that's what we want them to feel
safe to tell us anything,oftentimes, so we can swoop in
and fix it right when we're notsupposed to, but you know, just
as a mom we want to, you know wewant to know everything and we
want to you know, to be theirperson.
I think that this has been kindof eye opening to me, because
(18:42):
when I think about having sexconversations with kids, I think
about because we want to havethose conversations to avoid
unwanted pregnancies, stds, daterape, things like that.
But it is, it's a lot more thanjust arming them to protect
themselves physically fromthings that can happen and go
wrong when they're sexuallyactive.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's about so much more together and knowing their
own body that they will be ableto make really good choices and
(19:25):
find people who are loving andkind and trustworthy and who
listen and want to know who theyare, and they know how to ask
questions and learn aboutsomebody else.
We're teaching them aboutbonding and attachment at the
deepest level so that when theygo do that with good friends or
with partners, they're pickingreally quality people for
(19:48):
themselves.
They're creating a communitythat can nourish them through
their lifetime.
There's an 85 year study atHarvard called the happiness
study, and it's literally for 85years.
They've been looking at whatare the ingredients where people
say that they're happy, and itall comes down to the strength
(20:09):
and wellness of theirrelationships, not their jobs,
not how much money they have,not any of those things that we
sell in a capitalist agenda.
Right, it's relationships, andwhen we stop and think about it,
we know that's true.
But there was research done justin 2017 on the impact of sexual
(20:31):
shame on people's life, and theplace that it hits you the most
is trust, communication,identity.
You believe you're unworthy oflove, belonging, connection,
pleasure.
I mean, I could read you thedefinition.
It is profound, but this isexactly where it hurts people.
(20:53):
Sexual shame hurts your abilityto bond well and create strong
attachments.
So people get in relationshipsand they're like okay, I was
raised a boy.
I learned that I, that I kind oflearned that women were there
for my own pleasure.
But I really like this person,so I'm going to, I'm going to do
(21:14):
to them what I saw onpornography or what I heard from
my friends, but she starts todistance herself but then she's
trying to go along with itbecause she heard that in order
to kind of be popular and getthis person to like you, you've
got to do what they want to dowhen they want to do it.
So when this couple straightcouple gets married, he comes in
(21:38):
thinking he gets something andshe comes in thinking he
deserves something and they endup having a transactional sexual
relationship that is really notemotionally nourishing to
either one and often is onlyphysically pleasurable to one
and not the other.
Those people end up in myoffice and every other you know
(22:01):
couples therapists who's also asex therapist in their offices
because they're like we'reunhappy but we don't know how to
make ourselves happily, and itgoes all the way back to this.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Well, how do you?
What do we?
You've been saying the wordsexual shame, right.
How do we?
How do we get that?
How do we acquire that?
How do we know if we have that?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, good question.
I'm going to read you thedefinition, because all of
that's actually in there and Ithink that that will help you
and your listeners understand it.
Okay, sexual shame.
It's a visceral feeling, soit's in your body.
It's in your body a visceralfeeling of humiliation and
(22:44):
disgust toward one's own bodyand identity as a sexual being,
and a belief of being abnormal,inferior and unworthy, worthy.
This feeling can beinternalized, so it's inside of
(23:05):
us.
But it also manifests, and Iwould say it begins manifesting
in interpersonal relationship.
It begins at 11 months, whenthat kid finds their genitals
and their caregiver goes oh,gross, yeah, slaps their hand
away.
Okay, now they don't stoptouching their genitals at 11
months.
They're not going to get whatyou're saying until they're
(23:26):
three or four.
So all the times it happens andsomebody's yelling at them or
telling them that it's gross,don't touch.
Right, they're downloading.
Something must be wrong with me, because I don't actually
understand, because I'm justbeing me.
I'm just doing what my reflexesare to do, right?
I like pleasure.
(23:46):
I'm learning about food.
I'm learning about everything.
Right, I'm going to do thisthing because it feels good.
It's like the inside of mybunny's ear.
It feels good.
I keep getting in trouble.
I don't understand, so it mustbe me.
Okay, so it begins ininterpersonal relationships
having a negative impact ontrust, communication and
(24:06):
physical and emotional intimacy.
Sexual shame develops acrossthe lifespan.
So just like I'm talking aboutreally young and then over and
over and over and over and overagain, so many different ways,
right and interactions withinterpersonal relationship.
But then once culture andsociety lays its own layer on
(24:27):
top of it, okay, we have 50% ofsix-year-old girls in the U S,
two thirds of nine-year-oldgirls and 90% of 15 year old
girls modifying their dietsbecause they believe their
bodies are not okay.
Okay, this is just from media,right?
Okay.
So once culture and societylays its stuff and then creates
(24:49):
a subsequent criticalself-appraisal, so the internal
critic gets going, going, see,there, you are screwing up again
.
There you are, you're fat, yournose is too big.
To death, to death, to death.
This is going on all the timeinside their head.
Then it goes on to say there isalso a fear and uncertainty
related to one's power or rightto make decisions, including
(25:11):
safety decisions related tosexual encounters, along with an
internalized judgment towardone's own sexual desire.
So I don't even believeanything about my sexual desire
is good.
It's bad in so many differentways, right, but this last piece
, I think, is really important.
Peggy Ornstein wrote a bookcalled Girls and Sex and she
also later wrote a book aboutfive years later called Boys and
(25:33):
Sex, and it was based onmedia's effect on kids growing
up right now.
She interviewed 80 girls in theGirls and sex book and what she
found was the girls seemedconfident and competent in every
area of their life, talked withconfidence and competence in
every area of their life, untilthey got ready to go out and
then they were putting downthree, four and five shots of
(25:54):
hard liquor because they didn'tknow if they had the right to
keep themselves safe or if theycould, if they had the right to
keep themselves safe or if theycould.
Now these were not kids fromreligious homes, but we have
been teaching abstinence,education and shaming sex for 45
years now 45 years, even thoughwe know it raises the risk of
(26:16):
just about everything related tointerpersonal high school
relationships or young adultrelationships, right, pregnancy,
stis, assault.
I mean we have a rape cultureand that's what this definition
is saying that when we've gotkids, that they were just raised
in culture, they weren't raisedin religious homes.
(26:37):
They didn't get extra, anotherwhole extra message on top of it
, but they learned all this justfrom culture and the silence,
or silence and shame in theirown home, around bodies.
Silence sends a message.
If we don't talk about it, welearned that's a topic we don't
talk about.
Something is up with it.
(26:57):
I don't know what, butsomething's up with it.
We fill in the blanks.
So it's a it's a big deal andit is why I sort of get out
there to talk about this,because it also I'm watching all
these parents do it differentlyand they're also having so much
fun with their kids.
They're like fumbling throughtogether, but they're like they
read the books because theydon't have to know it.
You, the book will help youthrough it, you know.
(27:19):
And they're like oh, that wasinteresting.
I wish somebody had done thisfor me when I was little.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Right, right.
Well, this has really beenenlightening and you've touched
on this, but I have one lastquestion for you.
What do you say to the parentwho has a growing teenager and
they say we want abstinence,that's it, we're not gonna.
You know that, that is our rule.
What do you say to the to theparent who has that perspective?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
I'm like that is you are a parent, you have the right
to make whatever choices feelright for you.
I believe that you believe thatthis is protective to them.
But I want you to know thatwhat your child will likely do
many, some will comply, but theywill be turning off their
sexual desire, their sexualthoughts and their sexual
(28:09):
feelings as hard as they can inorder to comply.
And so when it comes time forthem to partner, it will not be
uncommon for their entire bodybecause it's visceral, their
entire body to say no eventhough their mind and heart is
saying yes.
And that includes the vaginalcanal.
All of the muscles inside ofthere will close.
(28:32):
And this now is a much more thatwe see much more of this
happening to kids who grew up inabstinence only homes,
especially authoritarianabstinence, only homes.
These kids will either do allthat to shove it, shove it,
shove it, close it, close it,close it.
It's bad as bad as bad, makethemselves bad and then try to
flip a switch when they getmarried and the switch won't it
(28:54):
won't flip at all.
And their whole body it's notjust here, not just their mind,
but their whole body is on, noand off and bad right, or
they'll go underground to try todiscover their own truth about
sexuality and relationships.
But I would say it's likethrowing your kids to the wolves
to not give them information,because the only place they're
(29:15):
going to be able to get it isfrom other kids and from the
media, and that just is not asafe place.
We know that 11 year olds canget online and get, within 30
seconds, start getting pursuedby somebody who's pretending to
be a youth, who is not.
So it is not safe out there,and you you're wanting to equip
(29:37):
your child to be safe and smartin every other area.
There is no difference here,which is why I think Amy
Shalit's book is so good,because you can see what happens
in countries and this is true.
The reason I know this is Igrew up in a Swedish immigrant
home, so I had epigenetics.
I had generations of peopleaunts, uncles, grandparents, so
(29:57):
on and so forth who talked aboutbodies and sexuality like they
talked about recipes.
It was talked about in thekitchen over dinner.
It was talked about all thetime.
I didn't even know that myfamily was weird until I was in
my thirties and I started tohear other people's stories and
I'm like it wasn't just thatthere were other families.
I was having a hard timefinding any other families like
(30:20):
mine.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And um, but I see bodies and sexuality as a
beautiful part of who we are, ascreated beings, and it should
be understood and celebrated.
And in a world like ours thatis trying to extract and exploit
and sell, it's really importantto equip our kids to be like I
(30:43):
deserve better.
Dude, you got to treat mebetter if you want to be with me
or you know what?
I treat people with realkindness and I expect to be
treated that way too, and theyjust take that all the way
through their body.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Dr Tina, this has been an incredible conversation.
I have learned so much from itand you just I mean honestly the
way you talk about it.
You take the scary out of it.
You know and have really mademe realize and I'm sure other
people listen to this that thisis something we don't want to
bury our heads in the sand aboutand it's probably never going
to be like super fun to havethese conversations with our
(31:17):
kids.
It won't with our kids, but itis obviously so important in
helping them grow to be thevaluable person to know that
they're the valuable person thatthey are.
Well again, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I will absolutely be buying your book.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I'm heading over there as soon as we get off of
here.
We will be putting the linksbelow.
And Dr Tina, I know you'reactive on Instagram.
If you want to reach out to her, you can DM her there and we'll
also include the link to thebook, the website, all the
things where you really havesome fantastic resources.
And again, just thanks fortaking your time to share your
stories on this really importanttopic, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Now, just give one little thing.
If anybody out there can'tafford either one of the books
that I wrote, feel free to DM meand I will send you a link to
an audio version of the book I'mhappy to do that.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
That's awesome.
So well.
Thank you so much.
We'll make sure that link isright below so people can access
it.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Dr Tina Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Talk to you later.
Welcome back to Speak Out Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green, andtoday's guest is Dr Tina Shermer
Sellers.
Dr Tina is a licensed sex andgender feminist, psychotherapist
, bestselling author, professorand media personality, and her
latest book is called ShamelessParenting Everything you Need to
Raise Shame-Free, confidentKids and Heal your Shame Too,
(00:22):
and so that's what we're kind offocused on today.
You know, here at Speak OutStand Out, we talk about ways to
build confidence andcommunication skills in our kids
, and one of the last things Ithink that most of us want to
really talk about with our kidsis sex, and that's what we're
here to talk about today.
Dr Tina, thanks for being herewith us, first and foremost.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
So you know, I don't know what it was like when you
were growing up, but I feel likethe topic of sex growing up was
either you were sat down andhad the birds and the bees
conversation or it was just kindof avoided.
And it seems like we're hearingand obviously your profession
is geared towards helping usstop avoiding those
conversations.
And is that important first ofall, and why?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, it's absolutely important.
I want to kind of compare it tocan you imagine being, I don't
know hesitant to talk abouthealth and wellness with your
kids and avoiding it?
Avoiding what you would say toa two-year-old, avoiding what
you'd say to a four-year-old?
(01:29):
You wouldn't say anything whenthey're putting sand in their
mouth.
You wouldn't say anything whenthey're wanting to eat candy all
the time.
You wouldn't say anything aboutlooking both ways before you
cross the street.
It just felt too uncomfortableand so you didn't say anything
at all until they're about readyto drive a car.
And then you get really scaredand you're like, okay, we got to
(01:50):
talk about it, you got to sitdown and you got to listen and
you give this one 100 minutepainful conversation when
they're in an age wherelistening like that really is
difficult for themdevelopmentally, like they are
really wanting to listen tothemselves, listen to their peer
group, and the download youneed to have done, you need to
(02:11):
have done before the age of 13.
I mean really like of mostthings, like what safety is,
what health and wellness is,what kindness is, what I mean,
just a whole lot of things.
But you didn't because you wereafraid to, because that's how
your parents were and yourgrandparents were and everyone
else.
You know, right.
But if you think about the rolethat sexuality plays in our
(02:35):
life, it usually is aboutcreating connection and pleasure
with somebody that you careabout, as well as having a good
relationship with connection andpleasure for yourself, right,
how you appreciate connectionand pleasure in your own life,
connection to yourself.
You know yourself, you careabout yourself, you love
(02:56):
yourself, right, and youappreciate the beauty and
pleasure that's in the world.
You appreciate that you'regrateful for a body that allows
you to take it in on all fivesenses, right.
So that's in the world.
You appreciate that You'regrateful for a body that allows
you to take it in on all fivesenses, right.
So that's what sexuality is inits fullest sense.
It's a relational intelligence,it's an emotional intelligence,
it's a social intelligence andit's a body intelligence, right.
(03:20):
And we need to be teaching whatis age appropriate, from the
time they find their genitals,which is usually about 11 months
old, and they're getting theirdiaper changed, right, or
they're in the tub from thereall the way forward.
So what are 11 month old, 12month old, 18 month old kids
doing there?
They've got people in theirlife labeling their world.
You know head, shoulders, kneesand toes right, knees and toes,
(03:44):
knees and toes.
We're that's a car, that's acat, that's a dog right when
they find their genitals, theyneed somebody there saying, yeah
, that's your penis, it's afabulous part of your body, or
yep, that's your vulva, it's afabulous part of your body.
Let's finish diapering you.
Let's finish drying you offwhatever it is, and you give
them developmentally what theyneed.
That includes things like bodyautonomy.
(04:05):
Who's in charge of your body?
Can anybody touch your body?
Do you get to say who touchesyour body?
What about other people?
Do they get to be in charge oftheir body?
Do you get to do whatever youwant to their body?
You're teaching about autonomy.
You're teaching about consentchoice you have choice, they
(04:26):
have choice.
We learn to respect eachother's choices.
If you're ever uncomfortable,you come to me or let's talk
about the safe people in yourlife that you could come to If
anybody older or bigger or morethreatening doesn't listen to
you and what your choice isabout you and your body doesn't
listen to you and what yourchoice is about you and your
(04:47):
body.
Right, you're giving thesethings at age appropriate ways.
You know the five and six yearold that are curious about each
other's bodies.
Right, you're giving them whatthey need there, you know, and
all the way along.
But because we didn't get that,most people less than 5% of
people in the U?
S did not get that.
Then what they do insidethemselves as they go, when they
(05:08):
get walked in on, or when theirchild finds their genitals, or
when they walk in on their kidsexamining each other or whatever
, they go like this and I'malways saying, honey, that's
just the shame you acquired frompeople who loved you very much
but didn't know how to give thisto you.
Put your hand on your heart andtell yourself you're okay.
That's just shame and you'vegot some learning to do to
(05:32):
rewrite the legacy.
So you don't pass on the legacyof shame.
You pass on the legacy ofknowledge.
You know this is your body.
All parts of your body aregreat Elbows, noses, vulvas,
genitals, all of it.
But they all have differentlike purposes and they need to
be cared for differently andwe're going to teach you about
it along the way.
And some parts we call moreprivate because they're kind of
(05:55):
special to us, and so you get tobe in charge of those, just
like you get to be in charge ofanybody who grabs your nose,
you're going to be in charge ofthat too, all parts of your body
.
So we are teaching all of thosethings.
And most parents go okay, Iknow what I don't want to do,
because I don't want to do whatwas done to me, but I don't know
what to do.
And that's how ShamelessParenting.
(06:15):
The book got written.
I'm like don't worry, I've beenteaching this to physicians and
therapists for 30 years.
I will write a book that goesbirth to two, two to four, four
to six, all the way up to 18.
Each section is going to sayhere's what, emotionally, kids
are, the tasks they're trying toaccomplish developmentally.
Here's the behavioral thingsthey're often doing.
(06:37):
Here's the body curiositiesthey often are having.
How does that when they startto do that?
How does that feel when youimagine that?
And if you feel that inside ofyou, okay, I just want you to
love up on yourself and thenknow that you've got some
learning to do this.
And then I tell you this iswhat they need from you, and I
(06:59):
give exactly what that is.
And then I'm like here are thetop books for kids at that age
and the top books for parents atthat age and the top websites.
And I say to parents you onlyneed to be two years ahead of
your kid.
So get to where they are now,read up to where they are now,
get all those books, cause, ifyou like, if you've got
teenagers, I tell people, go tothe library and get the kid
(07:22):
books, get them all and leavethem around the house and be
like I'm learning things.
Just say to them I'm learningthings.
I realized I didn't know whenyou were little.
So I'm getting the books andreading them and I'd love for
you to read these too.
They're kid books.
But there's things that wedidn't talk about.
I think enough, and I wish wedid, but I didn't know.
(07:42):
So you know I'm always doingthe best I can.
So you know, here they are, andthen get yourself caught up and
then if there are things youneed to address, then I'm like,
if you've got teenagers, thensay to them okay, there's
something I need to talk to youabout.
It feels really important, butit's going to be uncomfortable,
so I'm going to try to do it in60 seconds or less.
So we're both going to take abig breath and then I'm going to
(08:03):
go like boom, boom, boom, boom,boom, because I do want you to
hear it from me and not justfrom your friends.
Okay, cause I love you, we'regoing to both live through this,
and you just call it for whatit is and you just do it.
You know what I've heard frompeople who are older, like in
their twenties and thirties andon.
You're like my parent did thatfor me and even though it was
(08:24):
uncomfortable and I rolled myeyes the entire time, I'm really
glad they did.
Yeah, so, um, so, literally I'mgoing to hold your hand all the
way through it and just make itreally easy for you.
And then what's the mostexciting thing about this is
that you can change the legacyin one generation, like,
literally, by doing it differentwith your own kids.
(08:44):
Even late, doing it different,you will, if you're fortunate
enough, watch them do itdifferent with theirs.
Yeah, yeah, and that is worthit for sure, right?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Because I mean, no matter how old your kids are I
feel like every parent isprobably already you know you
focus on the things.
Oh, I wish I would have donethis differently when they were
little, even if they're babies,you know.
I wish I would have done thisdifferently last week, so to be
able to learn, you know andchange and then see them, you
know, take the good parts of ourparenting.
But I hear that what you saidabout having it broken down by
(09:18):
like here's what to expect,here's what to do, I mean, how
amazing would it be if we hadthat for every aspect of
parenting.
But that's gotta be soimportant for this aspect.
That seems so difficult.
And my, my kids are 11 and 15now and, um, and I will say we
have really not.
Well, my husband's a PE teacherand a health teacher, so he has
(09:38):
to actually have theconversation with public school
kids, so he's kind of in chargeof having that conversation, as
it needs to, with my kids.
But I remember when my oldesthe was probably six, he walked
in and just out of the blue hesaid what's sex?
And my reaction was I don't know, that's what I told him,
because I was so unprepared.
(10:00):
It was out of the blue, sounprepared.
And like you said, I just kindof froze because I I hadn't
considered that I'm going toneed to answer these questions
ever at that point you know,right, and probably no one did
that for you at six, you know,like when you asked the question
or whatever, there wasn'tsomebody.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Go well, what a great question.
And it's such a great question,but I don't know exactly what
you're wanting to know.
So can you tell me what youwant to know exactly, cause I
don't want to like it can be acomplicated subject, I don't
want to go into all of it.
What do you want?
Well, I mean, my friend,so-and-so, said that they went
to the zoo one day and thentheir mom, who had this big
belly, came home with the babyand that they had just gotten it
(10:39):
, you know, from us, from thehospital, and it didn't make a
lot of sense to me.
So I just thought I got to askmy mom you know, you got it.
You find out from them.
What is it they're reallywanting to know?
So you want to know where,where they come from.
Like, where do they come from?
From the body, or does thatmake sense?
I'll just give you the littleanswer and then, if you want
more, you just tell me what moreyou want, and so that way we're
(11:06):
just giving them just what theywant, because if we go on too
long, they're going to glassover and go off and play Right.
So we just give them what theywant and what's, and they are
the ones that know what'sdevelopmentally appropriate for
them.
They'll tell you, you know like.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I just want this yeah , letting them guide the
conversation.
Yeah, like in that instance wedidn't have to sit down and have
the full discussion.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
No, but I could have answered his question in some
way.
Yeah, absolutely.
And six is right on.
I mean, that is right whenthey're like starting to ask the
question, you know, and, and soyou.
But you do want to know exactlywhat they want to, what they
are wanting to understand aboutit.
You know, and the that question, or the, the answer to the
question you're asking, like,what exactly do you want to know
(11:44):
?
You'll see, we'll get morecomplex as they get older.
Well, I just don't understandhow the baby gets in there to
begin with.
Okay, so you want to know howit even starts to grow?
Well, then, let's get out abook and I'll explain all that
part.
You know, and and so you cankind of you know, get they're
(12:07):
the ones that will tell you whatmore they need to make it fit
their real questions you know asthey're going, yeah, but
there's a lot of other thingsthat we want to be teaching
along the way and a lot of it iswhen we think of, like
kindergarten to third grade orso, social, like aid.
It's really a lot of emotionaland relational intelligence.
You know, skills, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, and I think that you know it's so easy to
avoid, you know, uncomfortableconversations, but now that
we're having this conversation,I'm thinking about how, you know
, I want my kids to know thatthey can ask me anything about
anything, and especially ifthey're ever in a situation that
they don't understand or aren'tcomfortable with that they
could come.
Understand or aren'tcomfortable with that, they
(12:45):
could come and talk to us aboutthat.
So what do you say, though Imean, to those like me who my
kids are 11 and 15, we've nothad this conversation.
I'm sure my kids know, but wehaven't had the conversation.
But what do you say to somebodywho has not broached this
subject at all?
How do we do that?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, I mean honestly , I would get the Shameless
Parenting book and for anybodythat works with kids, there's a
way you can get them as handoutsbirth to two, two to four.
If you're like, yeah, I'mworking only with junior high
kids, you can go on my websiteand there's a shop and you can
get just the handouts, if thatmakes life easier for you.
(13:24):
But really it's, I don't know.
I just think you need to try to.
I would, I would say, own first.
You know what I'm realizingafter reading some of this stuff
that I haven't covered a lot ofthings with you, and my hunch
is you're getting it at schoolLike you're hearing it from your
(13:46):
friends.
I just want you to know that,when it comes to things like
having to do with how peopletreat each other, how people
touch each other, how peopletouch each other, things around
sexuality, things around whatyou're attracted to, identity,
like how you identify as aperson Do you identify as a
(14:08):
girly girl, or all of that stuffthat's stuff that we can talk
about too, because there's a lotof information out there in the
world that your friends mightbe getting from social media and
other places that might not beaccurate, and what I want to
give you is the actual knowledge, so that you know when you're
talking to people oh, that'strue or you know.
(14:31):
I don't think that's true, andyou can always come back and ask
me, and if I don't know,honestly, I will look it up with
you.
You know, but I want you tofeel equipped, because there are
ways in which we exploit people, because we want them to go,
buy things or do things orwhatever.
(14:51):
Right, and some of that isactually not you're.
You're going to want to knowthat somebody is trying to take
advantage of you, so that youcan be able to say inside
yourself I don't want that, I'mgoing to distance myself from
this situation or from thisperson.
Um, and so you've got myopinion and you've got to be
talking about how exploitationhappens, how people will lie to
(15:14):
get what they want from you.
I mean, we run our economy onthat, yeah, right, we want you
to feel bad about whateveryou're wearing, looking whatever
, so that you buy more things.
Well, we're actually teachingpeople that we can do that we
can exploit for our own purposes.
That's what we're teaching andso kids in their immaturity you
(15:36):
know, not having enough lifeexperience quite yet will do
that to each other.
But we want our children to belike that doesn't feel fair to
me.
I don't want to do that or thatisn't right.
That's what I know.
That actually isn't right.
Providing sex and relationshipand emotional education all of
(15:57):
this what in Sweden they calllife education providing this
along the way equips kids tofeel confident that they know
the difference between this andthat and then be able to stand
up for themselves or get helpRight.
And so it.
You know.
We know that kids that getcomprehensive sex education,
they get involved with sex laterthey make safer sexual choices,
(16:19):
they know how to protectthemselves, they suffer less
assault, they make betterchoices down the road with
relationships that are moreegalitarian.
They're not so in such a hurrybecause they're not trying to
impress.
They actually kind of know thatit's a complex issue and they
want it to go well for thembecause they're having lots of
(16:40):
conversations Sometimes that Ihave this in the book for older
parents or for parents witholder kids.
There's a book called not in myhouse or not not under my roof,
I'm sorry by Amy Shalit and shegrew up in Holland, where they
have comprehensive sex educationas most of the.
Northern European countries do.
And then she came to the U?
S to study grad school and shecouldn't figure out why kids and
(17:01):
parents were so differentaround relationships and
sexuality.
And so she did a did aqualitative study where she
interviewed families, kids andparents in two cities in Holland
and then the same in the U?
S, and then wrote a book abouthow it's done differently, and
it can be shocking to Americanpeople to read that book and be
(17:23):
like kids actually talk to theirparents about all of this stuff
they talk about to theirparents about masturbation.
They talk to their parents aboutliking somebody.
They talk to their parentsabout readiness to touch and
does their parents think theyare their first sexual
experiences are at home and it'sall been talked about ahead of
(17:45):
time.
So these kids have verydifferent experiences.
There's much less hooking upfor no reason.
They want to be treated welland they want to treat people
well.
They want good experiences.
They know about them and sothey seek them and they ask for
guidance.
We know from research that kidswho have comprehensive sex
education with their parentsdescribe themselves as closer to
(18:08):
their parents overall inadolescence.
So you want to be connected toyour kids.
Learn how to do this, becauseyour kids will be like, if my
parents can talk to me aboutthis, I can talk to them about
anything.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right, and that's what?
Oh, that's what, as a mother,that's what we want them to feel
safe to tell us anything,oftentimes, so we can swoop in
and fix it right when we're notsupposed to, but you know, just
as a mom we want to, you know wewant to know everything and we
want to you know, to be theirperson.
I think that this has been kindof eye opening to me, because
(18:42):
when I think about having sexconversations with kids, I think
about because we want to havethose conversations to avoid
unwanted pregnancies, stds, daterape, things like that.
But it is, it's a lot more thanjust arming them to protect
themselves physically fromthings that can happen and go
wrong when they're sexuallyactive.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's about so much more together and knowing their
own body that they will be ableto make really good choices and
(19:25):
find people who are loving andkind and trustworthy and who
listen and want to know who theyare, and they know how to ask
questions and learn aboutsomebody else.
We're teaching them aboutbonding and attachment at the
deepest level so that when theygo do that with good friends or
with partners, they're pickingreally quality people for
(19:48):
themselves.
They're creating a communitythat can nourish them through
their lifetime.
There's an 85 year study atHarvard called the happiness
study, and it's literally for 85years.
They've been looking at whatare the ingredients where people
say that they're happy, and itall comes down to the strength
(20:09):
and wellness of theirrelationships, not their jobs,
not how much money they have,not any of those things that we
sell in a capitalist agenda.
Right, it's relationships, andwhen we stop and think about it,
we know that's true.
But there was research done justin 2017 on the impact of sexual
(20:31):
shame on people's life, and theplace that it hits you the most
is trust, communication,identity.
You believe you're unworthy oflove, belonging, connection,
pleasure.
I mean, I could read you thedefinition.
It is profound, but this isexactly where it hurts people.
(20:53):
Sexual shame hurts your abilityto bond well and create strong
attachments.
So people get in relationshipsand they're like okay, I was
raised a boy.
I learned that I, that I kind oflearned that women were there
for my own pleasure.
But I really like this person,so I'm going to, I'm going to do
(21:14):
to them what I saw onpornography or what I heard from
my friends, but she starts todistance herself but then she's
trying to go along with itbecause she heard that in order
to kind of be popular and getthis person to like you, you've
got to do what they want to dowhen they want to do it.
So when this couple straightcouple gets married, he comes in
(21:38):
thinking he gets something andshe comes in thinking he
deserves something and they endup having a transactional sexual
relationship that is really notemotionally nourishing to
either one and often is onlyphysically pleasurable to one
and not the other.
Those people end up in myoffice and every other you know
(22:01):
couples therapists who's also asex therapist in their offices
because they're like we'reunhappy but we don't know how to
make ourselves happily, and itgoes all the way back to this.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Well, how do you?
What do we?
You've been saying the wordsexual shame, right.
How do we?
How do we get that?
How do we acquire that?
How do we know if we have that?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, good question.
I'm going to read you thedefinition, because all of
that's actually in there and Ithink that that will help you
and your listeners understand it.
Okay, sexual shame.
It's a visceral feeling, soit's in your body.
It's in your body a visceralfeeling of humiliation and
(22:44):
disgust toward one's own bodyand identity as a sexual being,
and a belief of being abnormal,inferior and unworthy, worthy.
This feeling can beinternalized, so it's inside of
(23:05):
us.
But it also manifests, and Iwould say it begins manifesting
in interpersonal relationship.
It begins at 11 months, whenthat kid finds their genitals
and their caregiver goes oh,gross, yeah, slaps their hand
away.
Okay, now they don't stoptouching their genitals at 11
months.
They're not going to get whatyou're saying until they're
(23:26):
three or four.
So all the times it happens andsomebody's yelling at them or
telling them that it's gross,don't touch.
Right, they're downloading.
Something must be wrong with me, because I don't actually
understand, because I'm justbeing me.
I'm just doing what my reflexesare to do, right?
I like pleasure.
(23:46):
I'm learning about food.
I'm learning about everything.
Right, I'm going to do thisthing because it feels good.
It's like the inside of mybunny's ear.
It feels good.
I keep getting in trouble.
I don't understand, so it mustbe me.
Okay, so it begins ininterpersonal relationships
having a negative impact ontrust, communication and
(24:06):
physical and emotional intimacy.
Sexual shame develops acrossthe lifespan.
So just like I'm talking aboutreally young and then over and
over and over and over and overagain, so many different ways,
right and interactions withinterpersonal relationship.
But then once culture andsociety lays its own layer on
(24:27):
top of it, okay, we have 50% ofsix-year-old girls in the U S,
two thirds of nine-year-oldgirls and 90% of 15 year old
girls modifying their dietsbecause they believe their
bodies are not okay.
Okay, this is just from media,right?
Okay.
So once culture and societylays its stuff and then creates
(24:49):
a subsequent criticalself-appraisal, so the internal
critic gets going, going, see,there, you are screwing up again
.
There you are, you're fat, yournose is too big.
To death, to death, to death.
This is going on all the timeinside their head.
Then it goes on to say there isalso a fear and uncertainty
related to one's power or rightto make decisions, including
(25:11):
safety decisions related tosexual encounters, along with an
internalized judgment towardone's own sexual desire.
So I don't even believeanything about my sexual desire
is good.
It's bad in so many differentways, right, but this last piece
, I think, is really important.
Peggy Ornstein wrote a bookcalled Girls and Sex and she
also later wrote a book aboutfive years later called Boys and
(25:33):
Sex, and it was based onmedia's effect on kids growing
up right now.
She interviewed 80 girls in theGirls and sex book and what she
found was the girls seemedconfident and competent in every
area of their life, talked withconfidence and competence in
every area of their life, untilthey got ready to go out and
then they were putting downthree, four and five shots of
(25:54):
hard liquor because they didn'tknow if they had the right to
keep themselves safe or if theycould, if they had the right to
keep themselves safe or if theycould.
Now these were not kids fromreligious homes, but we have
been teaching abstinence,education and shaming sex for 45
years now 45 years, even thoughwe know it raises the risk of
(26:16):
just about everything related tointerpersonal high school
relationships or young adultrelationships, right, pregnancy,
stis, assault.
I mean we have a rape cultureand that's what this definition
is saying that when we've gotkids, that they were just raised
in culture, they weren't raisedin religious homes.
(26:37):
They didn't get extra, anotherwhole extra message on top of it
, but they learned all this justfrom culture and the silence,
or silence and shame in theirown home, around bodies.
Silence sends a message.
If we don't talk about it, welearned that's a topic we don't
talk about.
Something is up with it.
(26:57):
I don't know what, butsomething's up with it.
We fill in the blanks.
So it's a it's a big deal andit is why I sort of get out
there to talk about this,because it also I'm watching all
these parents do it differentlyand they're also having so much
fun with their kids.
They're like fumbling throughtogether, but they're like they
read the books because theydon't have to know it.
You, the book will help youthrough it, you know.
(27:19):
And they're like oh, that wasinteresting.
I wish somebody had done thisfor me when I was little.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Right, right.
Well, this has really beenenlightening and you've touched
on this, but I have one lastquestion for you.
What do you say to the parentwho has a growing teenager and
they say we want abstinence,that's it, we're not gonna.
You know that, that is our rule.
What do you say to the to theparent who has that perspective?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
I'm like that is you are a parent, you have the right
to make whatever choices feelright for you.
I believe that you believe thatthis is protective to them.
But I want you to know thatwhat your child will likely do
many, some will comply, but theywill be turning off their
sexual desire, their sexualthoughts and their sexual
(28:09):
feelings as hard as they can inorder to comply.
And so when it comes time forthem to partner, it will not be
uncommon for their entire bodybecause it's visceral, their
entire body to say no eventhough their mind and heart is
saying yes.
And that includes the vaginalcanal.
All of the muscles inside ofthere will close.
(28:32):
And this now is a much more thatwe see much more of this
happening to kids who grew up inabstinence only homes,
especially authoritarianabstinence, only homes.
These kids will either do allthat to shove it, shove it,
shove it, close it, close it,close it.
It's bad as bad as bad, makethemselves bad and then try to
flip a switch when they getmarried and the switch won't it
(28:54):
won't flip at all.
And their whole body it's notjust here, not just their mind,
but their whole body is on, noand off and bad right, or
they'll go underground to try todiscover their own truth about
sexuality and relationships.
But I would say it's likethrowing your kids to the wolves
to not give them information,because the only place they're
(29:15):
going to be able to get it isfrom other kids and from the
media, and that just is not asafe place.
We know that 11 year olds canget online and get, within 30
seconds, start getting pursuedby somebody who's pretending to
be a youth, who is not.
So it is not safe out there,and you you're wanting to equip
(29:37):
your child to be safe and smartin every other area.
There is no difference here,which is why I think Amy
Shalit's book is so good,because you can see what happens
in countries and this is true.
The reason I know this is Igrew up in a Swedish immigrant
home, so I had epigenetics.
I had generations of peopleaunts, uncles, grandparents, so
(29:57):
on and so forth who talked aboutbodies and sexuality like they
talked about recipes.
It was talked about in thekitchen over dinner.
It was talked about all thetime.
I didn't even know that myfamily was weird until I was in
my thirties and I started tohear other people's stories and
I'm like it wasn't just thatthere were other families.
I was having a hard timefinding any other families like
(30:20):
mine.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And um, but I see bodies and sexuality as a
beautiful part of who we are, ascreated beings, and it should
be understood and celebrated.
And in a world like ours thatis trying to extract and exploit
and sell, it's really importantto equip our kids to be like I
(30:43):
deserve better.
Dude, you got to treat mebetter if you want to be with me
or you know what?
I treat people with realkindness and I expect to be
treated that way too, and theyjust take that all the way
through their body.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Dr Tina, this has been an incredible conversation.
I have learned so much from itand you just I mean honestly the
way you talk about it.
You take the scary out of it.
You know and have really mademe realize and I'm sure other
people listen to this that thisis something we don't want to
bury our heads in the sand aboutand it's probably never going
to be like super fun to havethese conversations with our
(31:17):
kids.
It won't with our kids, but itis obviously so important in
helping them grow to be thevaluable person to know that
they're the valuable person thatthey are.
Well again, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I will absolutely be buying your book.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I'm heading over there as soon as we get off of
here.
We will be putting the linksbelow.
And Dr Tina, I know you'reactive on Instagram.
If you want to reach out to her, you can DM her there and we'll
also include the link to thebook, the website, all the
things where you really havesome fantastic resources.
And again, just thanks fortaking your time to share your
stories on this really importanttopic, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Now, just give one little thing.
If anybody out there can'tafford either one of the books
that I wrote, feel free to DM meand I will send you a link to
an audio version of the book I'mhappy to do that.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
That's awesome.
So well.
Thank you so much.
We'll make sure that link isright below so people can access
it.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Dr Tina Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Talk to you later.
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