July 28, 2025 • 30 mins
Mallary Tenore Tarpley shares her journey through eating disorder recovery and offers guidance for parents navigating these conversations with their children in today's challenging social media landscape.
• Understanding eating disorders beyond body image—Mallary's anorexia developed after her mother's death as an attempt to "stop time" and stay connected to her
• The importance of recognizing the "middle place" in recovery where both progress and slips coexist
• Teaching children that all bodies deserve respect regardless of size or shape
• Avoiding labeling foods as "good" or "bad" which can create harmful associations for children
• Creating positive relationships with food by involving children in meal preparation and giving them appropriate autonomy
• Approaching concerns about disordered eating with curiosity rather than accusation
• The importance of early intervention and seeking specialists in eating disorders when concerned
• Recognizing that recovery's middle ground is not settling for stagnation but learning to manage vulnerability
• Understanding slips as opportunities for growth rather than evidence of failure
Check out Mallary's memoir "Slip" to learn more about navigating the complex journey of eating disorder recovery.
Connect with Mallary on Facebook or Instagram!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green and today'sguest is Mallory Tenori Tarpley
.
Mallory is a journalismprofessor at the University of
Texas at Austin, and she is alsoan author of the memoir Slip,
which explores life in themiddle of eating disorder
recovery.
So a heavy conversation we wantto have today, but a very, very
necessary one.
(00:20):
So I'm glad you're listeningand I'm glad, mallory, to have
you here today.
Yes, thanks so much for havingme, so I'm glad you're listening
and I'm glad, mallory, to haveyou here today.
Yes, thanks so much for havingme.
So let's just dive right in.
You are obviously you have arecovering from an eating
disorder, or would you sayyou're recovered.
How just let me get the wordstraight on that how do we
introduce you, knowing thatthat's what we're talking about
(00:41):
and I know that's such an awfulway to just start the
conversation, but that's whatwe're here to talk about right?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yes, and I appreciate that, because I think it's so
important to ask people aboutthe language that they use to
describe their recovery.
So I say that I'm in recoveryfrom an eating disorder.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, and so just for context sake, when did this
start for you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So I developed anorexia nervosa when I was 12
years old, after my mother diedof breast cancer.
She died when I was 11, andthen I very quickly descended
into an eating disorder.
So it's something that I was intreatment for throughout my
teenage years, and I'm farbetter than I ever imagined I
would be, but I still live withthe disorder's imprints, and so
(01:21):
that's why I always say that Iam in ongoing recovery from the
disorder.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Okay, and one thing I think it's important to point
out too, is that we think ofeating disorders as always a
body image, and it is part ofthat, right.
But that's not entirely likewith your scenario, right, that
your mother dying was atraumatic event, right?
So do you think that played abig part?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I definitely think it did.
Many people do believe thateating disorders are all about
people trying to stay skinny orsmall, and for me it was really
different in that it didn't haveanything to do with weight.
It was more so about trying tostay small and safe.
So after my mother died, I feltso far away from her and I
(02:02):
found myself wanting to stoptime and I thought that if I
stayed the same size that I waswhen my mom was alive, I could
somehow be closer to her.
And so food restriction becamethis warped form of time travel.
And of course, the irony ofeating disorders is that we
think they're going to give usone thing, but they end up
really completely removing usfrom that thing.
(02:23):
So the eating disorder reallyleft me feeling farther away
from my mother than ever before,but originally that's what I
hoped it would do.
Right, Just help me to remaincloser to my mother.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think that's so important for people to hear,
because I think a lot of timesit's easy to think, oh no,
you're already tiny, you don'thave an issue.
You know what I mean?
I think there's just there's somuch judgment around it and I
want to talk about that.
But before we get to that, howdid you find your way out of it?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So originally, when I first started restricting my
food intake, I really didn'tknow that it was an eating
disorder.
I didn't have the words todescribe it.
As a child, I thought peoplewith eating disorders didn't eat
anything at all, and I wasstill eating enough to sustain
myself, but I wasn't eatingnearly enough.
But I had all thesemisconceptions about what an
(03:11):
eating disorder was.
And it wasn't until I washospitalized at Boston
Children's Hospital inMassachusetts at age 13 that I
got an actual diagnosis andcould better understand what it
was I was grappling with.
And so I ended up beinghospitalized on five separate
occasions, and each time I wasrestored in terms of my weight
(03:31):
and I was nutritionallyrehabilitated.
So physically I was in a betterplace after each of these
hospitalizations.
But all of the cognitivedistortions that come with an
eating disorder remained, and soI was never in the hospital
long enough to really addressall of those cognitive issues,
and so I ended up going to aresidential treatment facility
(03:51):
for a year and a half, and itwas that time away from home.
It was really being immersed intreatment and in therapy that
really helped me to makemeaningful progress forward.
So that's really where the bulkof my real recovery work
happened and it really laid thefoundation for my recovery in
the years to come.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Well, I obviously hate that you had that
experience, but it's amazingthat you're taking such a
painful experience and puttingit out there to the world.
That's not an easy thing to doeither, but why are you doing
that?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
So it's really important to me as a writer to
just think about the power ofsharing stories to help other
people feel seen and heard, andfor me, so many of the books
that I read throughout the yearsabout eating disorders were
either very clinical or theywere written from the
perspective of people who werefully recovered.
And as I made progress inrecovery, I found that I was
better, but I wasn't all better,and it seemed like there was
(04:56):
this lack of a mirrored imagebetween my own narrative and the
stories I was reading in books,because I thought all of these
individuals are fully recoveredand I'm not.
So what does that mean?
And what does it mean to be inthis middle place between acute
sickness and full recovery?
So for a long time I thought Iwas the only person in this
place.
But for the book, I ended upsurveying over 700 people from
(05:17):
around the world who have livedexperience with eating disorders
, and 85% of those people saidthat they could identify with
this middle place, and yet theynever really had the words to
describe it, and so I thought,okay, there's something here.
Right, there needs to be agreater conversation around what
it means to be in this messymiddle and what it means to slip
(05:39):
and recognize that both slipsand progress can coexist.
So with this book I want toreally broaden our scope of
understanding around what itmeans to recover and also give
people more words for describingtheir recovery and remove some
of the shame that can come whenyou're not fully recovered.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, and it makes sense.
I've always kind of I guess Ihaven't thought too much about
it, but kind of picturedsomebody in an active eating
disorder and then fine, andthere has to be so much in the
middle.
It's just like, if we'retalking about, recovering
alcoholics still go to AAmeetings years after, because
it's not just a simple we'rejust going to turn this off,
(06:18):
regardless of what your issue is, that you're dealing with, that
you're fighting.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yes, exactly, and in the eating disorder space, we
still have a long way to go interms of just accepting the fact
that many people do live outtheir lives in this middle place
.
There is a lot of black andwhite language in the field in
terms of people are either sickor they're fully recovered, and
I really understand whytreatment providers push for
(06:43):
full recovery for everyone,because some individuals do
fully recover and I includetheir perspectives in the book
but there's so many of us whoare in this kind of murky
territory of really living withthe vulnerability of the
disorder, and I think we need tohave more real and honest
conversations about what thatlooks like, similar to the way
that other fields, like theaddiction and substance abuse
(07:06):
fields, have had for many years.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
That makes a lot of sense.
Well, one of the things we wantto talk about today is
empowering our listeners, momsand dads, to have hard but
meaningful conversations withtheir kids, in hopes that their
children never go down that path, but knowing that nobody is
(07:30):
going to live a perfect life,our children are going to hit
bumps along the road and so,even though we're talking
specifically about eatingdisorders today, a lot of the
things we're talking are goingto talk about apply to all kinds
of challenges that kids willface and teens will face, right?
Yes, for sure.
So let's just start with that.
How do we talk to kids aboutbody image?
And that's such a broad question, but I guess I want to preface
(07:51):
something that we were sayingbefore we started recording that
growing up in the nineties andthe early two thousands was
difficult for everybody, I'msure, and as a woman, I felt
like you know, growing, yourbody's changing and there's
pressure on you, and at thatpoint we were just seeing the
star magazines with thebeautiful actresses.
Now kids have social mediawhere they're seeing People who
(08:14):
go to school with them lookinglike these famous actresses, and
all of this because of thisheavy conviction.
They have to look amazing tothe world, and so I just can't
imagine.
I can't imagine being a teen intoday's world with those
challenges.
But we're raising them and sowe have to think about it and
(08:34):
learn how to cope with it.
But so knowing all of thosethings like it's such a big
thing, how do we ever begin tohave that conversation with our
kids?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes.
So it's such an important topicto broach and it is not an easy
one to talk about.
I will say that as the motherof a seven-year-old son and a
nine-year-old daughter, and Ifear for the time when they do
begin to use social media andwhen they are exposed to all of
this different content, and so abig part of what I think
(09:03):
parents could benefit from doingis to really talk about how all
bodies are worthy of respect.
I think that that message isreally important and I talk
about that a lot with my kids.
I say all bodies are worthy ofrespect, no matter how short or
tall, no matter how short ortall, no matter how big or small
, because I want them to realizethat they are going to be
(09:24):
exposed to messages that tellthem that their worth is
determined by their weight.
And our society is so deeplyentrenched in diet culture and
in fat phobia and we receive somany messages that essentially
are perpetuating the thin idealand making us believe that it is
morally bad to live in a largerbody, and I think we need to
(09:48):
really have some of these harderconversations with kids around
the fact that they will beexposed to some of this
messaging and they need to tryto recognize it when they see it
.
Because I think the more we cantalk with kids about some of
the pernicious content that theymay be seeing or that they may
one day see, the more we canprepare them to be aware of it
(10:09):
and to call it out as dietculture.
Certainly, we're not going todismantle diet culture anytime
soon, but I think, personally,we can take a stand against it
and say I am not going to lookat skinny talk, for instance.
We know that that's been banned, but there's so much content
like that on social media whereyou have people who are talking
about dieting or who are talkingabout wellness under the guise
(10:33):
of unhealthy behaviors aroundeating.
So that's one aspect of it.
Another is really just trying toavoid labels when it comes to
food.
I say this as someone who, atage 12, was in a health class in
which a teacher was telling usabout what we should and
shouldn't eat and she wouldlabel foods as being good and
(10:55):
bad or healthy and unhealthy,and she would tell us sort of
what foods to avoid, and as apeople pleaser and a
perfectionist, I really wantedto follow what she said.
So I began to believe that Iwould be bad if I ate those
quote unquote bad foods and thatI was good if I ate the good
foods.
And for kids those types oflabels can be harmful because
(11:18):
it's more difficult for kids tounderstand nuance and sometimes
children will begin to ascribethese moral values to food when
they hear that there are certainfoods that are good or bad.
So part of this is eatingdisorder prevention.
Speak as a mother in recoverybut I do tell my kids that all
foods fit and I do let them eata variety of foods.
(11:39):
So there's no foods that arereally off limits in our house
because I don't want to placethose restrictions on them.
In some ways I think our kidsare attuned to what their bodies
need and are attuned to kind offullness and hunger cues in
ways that a lot of us aren't asadults, and so I try to trust
that.
Of course I don't want themeating Cheetos for every meal,
(12:01):
so I intervene in some ways, butI also don't restrict them from
certain foods, knowing thatthey are growing and they need
to have a variety of foods intheir diet.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So if we don't want to label things as good and bad
but at the same time, we stillwant our kids to understand the
difference between healthy andnot healthy, Are those the words
we should be using, or how doyou approach that so that
they're still learning to makegood choices?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, so I think each family is going to have
different verbiage, differentwords that they want to use.
There are some eating disorderdieticians who I've talked to
who have kind of used the termsgrowing and non-growing foods.
So these are foods that arereally going to give your body
strength, they're really goingto help you grow, and then there
are other foods that we enjoyeating but they're not
(12:45):
necessarily going to help ourbodies to grow in healthy ways,
and so that can be a differentapproach as opposed to just sort
of labeling things as eithergood or bad.
Those words tend to be justdifficult to understand
sometimes and people can sort ofdefine those in different ways
(13:05):
that could be harmful.
So the growing versusnon-growing foods is an approach
that can be helpful for some.
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And so before we kind of turn to, what do we do if we
feel like our child isstruggling with something like
this is there?
Are there any other practicaltips like that that we could use
at home before we get to thatstage where we have to, you know
, before we're worried thatthere is an issue.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah.
So I also think it's reallyimportant to try to create
community around food.
So thinking about how we caninvolve kids in making food and
making dishes and giving them asay over what foods they want
this is something that I've hadto really think a lot about,
because one of the imprints ofmy own disorder is that I do
(13:47):
tend to exert a fair amount ofcontrol in the kitchen and that
I like to make the meals.
I like to prepare the food forthe kids.
But I recently enrolled them ina cooking camp and they really
took so much pleasure in justtrying different foods and
making the foods themselves, andit was this really important
reminder that we need to empowerkids to make choices around
(14:10):
food, to see food as somethingthat can be fun, as something
that really gives our bodystrength and fuel.
And the more we can involvethem in the kitchen, the more we
can sort of be together as afamily at mealtimes.
I think the healthierrelationships we can build
around food with our kids.
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
And just a side note too, my kids are a little bit
older, they're 12 and 16, andthey both one particularly loves
to cook.
Actually, I would say he lovesto bake, he likes to make all
the sweets and things.
But as a mom, there is alsosomething really amazing when
they get to that point where youcan say if you don't like what
I fixed for dinner, you can fixsomething on your own.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
That is the most freeing thing.
Yes, exactly, and I think thatthat's really important to give
them options.
There is a woman named EllenSattler who has written some
books about how we feed children, and she talks about just this
approach to putting a meal onthe table and then letting
children kind of pick from thatmeal.
So you're the one, as theparent, choosing what the
(15:10):
children are eating, but thenthey get to serve themselves
what they want and how much theywant, and so it gives them a
little bit more choice over thatand helps them to figure out
what they're wanting in anymoment in time.
So I think that approach canalso be helpful as we think
about providing good, nutritiousmeals for our children but also
giving them some sense ofautonomy over what to eat.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Absolutely.
And if it helps avoid some ofthe dinnertime tantrums too,
over foods, you know, thenthat's absolutely a win.
I love that idea.
That's a great idea.
So kind of moving then towards,let's say, we're in a situation
where we're worried that ourchild is really maybe going down
a path that we don't want forthem.
How do we start to have thoseconversations in a way that
(15:54):
they're going to listen and beopen to talking to us?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yes.
So I would say that you reallywant to trust your gut in these
situations.
If you feel like something iswrong, then it's important to
broach that conversation.
It's also important to notethat many people struggling with
eating disorders, andparticularly children, are often
in denial, and so they may notbelieve that they have an eating
(16:17):
disorder.
There's often this mentalitythat people struggling with
eating disorders think thatthey're not sick enough, right?
They think, oh, I'm eatingenough, or I'm not sick enough,
I'm not skinny enough to beanorexic.
So there's a fair amount ofdenial that comes into play here
, as well as a fair amount ofsecrecy.
So if it's gotten to the pointwhere you are noticing behavior
(16:39):
changes, then that means thatyou really need to act, because
most likely, these behaviorshave been going on behind closed
doors and it's gotten to thepoint where they're prevalent
enough that you're seeing them.
So it's important to haveconversations with kids, using
nonjudgmental language andreally approaching it with a
(17:00):
sense of curiosity, right, andsaying I've noticed, for
instance, that you've beenreally retreating during
mealtimes.
It seems like you haven'treally been wanting to eat.
Or I've noticed that you'vebeen going to the bathroom every
time after you eat, right,which could be a sign that
someone is purging and reallyjust saying what you've been
(17:23):
noticing, as opposed to goinginto the conversation in a very
accusatory way and saying Ican't believe that you've not
been eating or what you'renoticing, and then opening up
avenues for storytelling wherethe child can begin to hopefully
(17:43):
tell you a little bit moreabout what's happening right.
So being able to say I'venoticed these things happening
and I want to talk with youabout them.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about what you're noticing
right, or what's going on foryou right now?
I want to be here, I want tohelp you and I'm concerned,
right, and really stating that Ithink is important.
(18:04):
The things that are notimportant are when you go into
it with accusations or when yousay why can't you just eat right
?
Or you're so smart, why can'tyou figure this out?
Or step on the scale, you'llsee you're losing weight.
Those were all comments that myfamily made to me when I was
younger, and they came from aplace of love, but also just
real confusion over what wasgoing on.
(18:24):
So I think part of this, too,is doing a little bit of our own
kind of psychoeducation where,even before having these
conversations, we try to read upon eating disorders a little
bit more, try to get a sense ofthem, try to kind of get more
familiar with the differentsymptoms, so that we can just
have that knowledge in our backpocket before we have these
(18:45):
conversations.
The other thing, too, isrevisiting these conversations,
not just having one, and if thechild denies it, then just
forgetting about it, and it maybe that you end up needing to
take your child to a medicalprovider just to be able to
assess them and see reallywhat's going on.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, I think that it's hard as parents hey, we
want to fix things right, wewant them to be healthy and
happy, and when they're not, wewant to fix things.
And for me it is giving myyoungest as an example.
He's a quiet little guy and ifsomething is upsetting him he
does not want to talk about it.
And I talk all the time and soit kills me when I'm like what's
(19:26):
wrong, tell me what's wrong soI can help you.
And it just pushes him fartheraway thing.
When we're talking about, I mean, he might be upset because he
and his friend had a little tiffor something.
When we're talking aboutsomething so personal and when
there's a lot of shame around it, we can't expect them just to
be like oh mom, I'm so glad youasked, so we just keep having
(19:54):
these conversations.
I mean, like you said, I knowat some point you might have to
have medical professionalsintervene, but I think also
that's hard for parents to dofor fear that they're going to
push their kid farther away byhaving somebody else step in
again in something that's sopersonal.
So what do you say to the momthat's worried about that?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I would say that it's worth getting that intervention
, because we do know fromresearch that the earlier a
child receives treatment, thebetter the prognosis, and so the
longer we wait to get childrenhelp, the farther they're going
to descend into their disorderand the harder it gets to
recover from that disorder.
So ultimately you are going tofeel like you're losing your
(20:38):
child if they are kind ofdescending deeper into that
disorder and so there is goingto be this sort of feeling of
separation.
It's better to just be able togo to a provider, ideally one
that specializes in eatingdisorders, so that could be an
eating disorder therapist, butcould also be an eating disorder
dietician.
And I say that because thereare a lot of medical providers
(21:00):
who really don't know a wholelot about eating disorders.
The average doctor receiveszero to two hours of training on
eating disorders, which is mindboggling when you consider that
30 million Americans willstruggle with an eating disorder
in their lifetime, and I delvepretty deeply into that in the
book.
But I think that that'simportant too right that there
(21:21):
are instances sometimes whenparents will go to medical
providers who really don't knowmuch about eating disorders, and
if their child's not clinicallyunderweight, the provider may
say well, we don't really knowwhat's going on or we don't
think they have an eatingdisorder.
So I think that that's reallyimportant.
It's so unfortunate, but I'vetalked with countless people for
whom that's been the case, andit was also the case for me when
(21:41):
I was a child that mypediatrician did not recognize I
needed help.
So I think the extent to whichyou can find an eating disorder
clinician is going to really behelpful and yes, I would say,
just try to initially have thoseconversations with the child,
but then, if that's not workingand you're really still
concerned, really seeking moreprofessional help for your child
(22:03):
.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Just as if we suspected something was going on
.
Maybe they had a growth ontheir arm or something that
shouldn't be there and they'relike, oh, just leave me alone,
we wouldn't just ignore it.
We need to go to thedermatologist and get this
checked out.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It's the same thing, yes, exactly, and I think too
it's also about learning what isthis right or how can I help my
child and providers can reallyassist with that.
Years ago the sort of approachwas to really try to extricate
the child from the home and thethinking was that mothers were
to blame for children who hadeating disorders.
(22:37):
And there's a lot less parentblaming now because we know that
certainly parents can'tcategorically cause eating
disorders.
Certainly parents can haveinfluence over their children
and the way they think aboutfood and their bodies, but we've
moved away from that motherblaming and we have really sort
of realized that particularlyfor children, it is especially
(22:58):
helpful if we can keep them inthe home and also help parents
to really work closely with them.
So it's not a perfect sort ofmode of treatment, but now there
is a treatment that was notaround in the late nineties when
I was struggling and it's knownas family-based treatment.
It is kind of research,evidence-based treatment that
really tries to keep the childat home and really works very
(23:22):
closely with the parents onhelping the child and figuring
out how they can be of greaterassistance to the child and how
they can really sort of do thatin a way that doesn't strain the
relationship.
So I think that that's a reallyimportant sort of development
and treatment in terms of how wecare for kids with eating
disorders.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Absolutely.
And are we seeing more peoplewith eating disorders these days
and at younger ages than before?
Is it actually growing?
I mean, it seems like it shouldbe because of what we see in
our faces all the time.
It is growing.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yes, so the rate of eating disorders is increasing.
We saw this particularly duringthe COVID-19 pandemic, where
the rate of hospitalizations foreating disorders was just
skyrocketing and that really gotsome attention at the time.
I have talked with differentdoctors who have also confirmed
this, that they are seeing moreand more patients with eating
(24:18):
disorders, and at one point Iwas interviewing my medical
doctor who treated me years agowhen I was first hospitalized,
and she still treats eatingdisorder patients today and I
said well, why do you think thatthe number is increasing so
much?
And she said well, I know why.
Social media, right.
And so again, we can't alwaysjust blame one thing.
So we can't blame social mediaalone for causing eating
(24:40):
disorders, but certainly when wethink about just all of the
content that children areexposed to, that teens are
exposed to on social media, it'sno wonder that we see more
people falling into thesedisorders.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Well, I have just a couple more questions for you,
if you have another coupleminutes.
This has been so enlighteningso far.
I wanted to ask you what do yousay if the mom who's listening
right now says okay, mydaughter's best friend, I know
she's going down this path, mydaughter knows it.
What do we do?
I'm not the, I'm not the mom.
You know I can't broach thatkind of conversation.
(25:15):
What do you say to somebodywho's witnessing this?
You know closely, but from afar?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
So it's always tricky and of course it's going to
depend on kind of the differentindividuals, but I would say
it's really important to try totalk to the parents of that
child.
I say that as someone who wishesthat other people had
intervened sooner with me,because there were people who
noticed that I was losing weight, but I don't think they really
(25:44):
knew what to do or what to say,or they felt like it wasn't
their place and the reaction youmay get may not be positive
right.
The parent may come back and saywho do you think you are?
Or I know my child, they're notstruggling, but maybe you plant
the seed right that that childneeds care or that child needs
something.
It could be too that the parentmay be struggling with their
(26:06):
own eating disorder and may feela lot of shame around the fact
that their child now isbeginning to struggle.
We do know that eatingdisorders are genetic, and so
there is that likelihood that achild of a parent with an eating
disorder could also end upstruggling.
Recognize that, then it isimportant to try to talk to the
(26:32):
parents and to try to do itagain from a place of real deep
seated care and not from a placeof you know kind of blaming the
parent or shaming the parent inany way, right?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, all right, and then I guess, my last question
for you.
You talk a lot in your bookabout living in this middle
ground, and I'm sure there arepeople listening that are like,
yeah, I got it, I'm there.
What do you say to them?
Obviously, we want them to readyour book and learn so much
more about how they can helpthemselves.
But what do you say to thosepeople?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So I would say that it is not a failure to be in the
middle place, and I also thinkit's important for parents to
recognize that the middle placeis a place where you can lead a
full life, because I think veryoften when parents think about
their own kids struggling, theythink, oh my gosh, is my child
just going to be living withthis for the rest of their lives
(27:21):
?
I want them to be fullyrecovered.
I don't want them in thismiddle place.
But I think it's reallyimportant to recognize that the
middle place is not aboutsettling for stagnancy, it's not
about being sick for your life,but it's really about
recognizing that the disorderremains a vulnerability.
And so in this place, it'simportant to just recognize when
(27:42):
slips happen and to know thatthose slips don't have to turn
into uncontrollable slides.
Instead of being grounds forfailure, they can really be
opportunities for growth.
So it's so easy to demonizeslips and to just be so hard on
ourself when we have a slip up,but it's just as important to
look at that slip and say, okay,that happened.
(28:04):
What can I learn from that?
How do I move forward?
Because if you think about thatvery word slip, it suggests
some sort of movement, becauseyou can't slip if you're
standing still.
So often, when we are makingstrides in our recovery, that is
when we slip, because we aretrying to get better and trying
to do things that arechallenging and that are forcing
us to step outside of ourcomfort zone.
(28:26):
So it's really important tocelebrate those wins and those
steps forward, as opposed toonly fixating on the slips and
the negative repercussions ofthem.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Well, mallory, I am grateful toyou for taking what obviously
is a painful and a private thingand putting it out there for
the world in hopes of helpingother people and I'm sure that
you are and if you are listeningto this or watching this, we
will link to Mallory's book, soit's super easy for you to check
out.
And, mallory, if you have anyother resources or anything that
(28:57):
we could provide to people, wecan add some extra links below,
or they will also link to allyour social media accounts so
they can connect with you aswell.
So, again, thank you so muchfor your time and
Welcome back to Speak Out.
Stand Out.
I'm Elizabeth Green and today'sguest is Mallory Tenori Tarpley
.
Mallory is a journalismprofessor at the University of
Texas at Austin, and she is alsoan author of the memoir Slip,
which explores life in themiddle of eating disorder
recovery.
So a heavy conversation we wantto have today, but a very, very
necessary one.
(00:20):
So I'm glad you're listeningand I'm glad, mallory, to have
you here today.
Yes, thanks so much for havingme, so I'm glad you're listening
and I'm glad, mallory, to haveyou here today.
Yes, thanks so much for havingme.
So let's just dive right in.
You are obviously you have arecovering from an eating
disorder, or would you sayyou're recovered.
How just let me get the wordstraight on that how do we
introduce you, knowing thatthat's what we're talking about
(00:41):
and I know that's such an awfulway to just start the
conversation, but that's whatwe're here to talk about right?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yes, and I appreciate that, because I think it's so
important to ask people aboutthe language that they use to
describe their recovery.
So I say that I'm in recoveryfrom an eating disorder.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, and so just for context sake, when did this
start for you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So I developed anorexia nervosa when I was 12
years old, after my mother diedof breast cancer.
She died when I was 11, andthen I very quickly descended
into an eating disorder.
So it's something that I was intreatment for throughout my
teenage years, and I'm farbetter than I ever imagined I
would be, but I still live withthe disorder's imprints, and so
(01:21):
that's why I always say that Iam in ongoing recovery from the
disorder.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Okay, and one thing I think it's important to point
out too, is that we think ofeating disorders as always a
body image, and it is part ofthat, right.
But that's not entirely likewith your scenario, right, that
your mother dying was atraumatic event, right?
So do you think that played abig part?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I definitely think it did.
Many people do believe thateating disorders are all about
people trying to stay skinny orsmall, and for me it was really
different in that it didn't haveanything to do with weight.
It was more so about trying tostay small and safe.
So after my mother died, I feltso far away from her and I
(02:02):
found myself wanting to stoptime and I thought that if I
stayed the same size that I waswhen my mom was alive, I could
somehow be closer to her.
And so food restriction becamethis warped form of time travel.
And of course, the irony ofeating disorders is that we
think they're going to give usone thing, but they end up
really completely removing usfrom that thing.
(02:23):
So the eating disorder reallyleft me feeling farther away
from my mother than ever before,but originally that's what I
hoped it would do.
Right, Just help me to remaincloser to my mother.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think that's so important for people to hear,
because I think a lot of timesit's easy to think, oh no,
you're already tiny, you don'thave an issue.
You know what I mean?
I think there's just there's somuch judgment around it and I
want to talk about that.
But before we get to that, howdid you find your way out of it?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So originally, when I first started restricting my
food intake, I really didn'tknow that it was an eating
disorder.
I didn't have the words todescribe it.
As a child, I thought peoplewith eating disorders didn't eat
anything at all, and I wasstill eating enough to sustain
myself, but I wasn't eatingnearly enough.
But I had all thesemisconceptions about what an
(03:11):
eating disorder was.
And it wasn't until I washospitalized at Boston
Children's Hospital inMassachusetts at age 13 that I
got an actual diagnosis andcould better understand what it
was I was grappling with.
And so I ended up beinghospitalized on five separate
occasions, and each time I wasrestored in terms of my weight
(03:31):
and I was nutritionallyrehabilitated.
So physically I was in a betterplace after each of these
hospitalizations.
But all of the cognitivedistortions that come with an
eating disorder remained, and soI was never in the hospital
long enough to really addressall of those cognitive issues,
and so I ended up going to aresidential treatment facility
(03:51):
for a year and a half, and itwas that time away from home.
It was really being immersed intreatment and in therapy that
really helped me to makemeaningful progress forward.
So that's really where the bulkof my real recovery work
happened and it really laid thefoundation for my recovery in
the years to come.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Well, I obviously hate that you had that
experience, but it's amazingthat you're taking such a
painful experience and puttingit out there to the world.
That's not an easy thing to doeither, but why are you doing
that?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
So it's really important to me as a writer to
just think about the power ofsharing stories to help other
people feel seen and heard, andfor me, so many of the books
that I read throughout the yearsabout eating disorders were
either very clinical or theywere written from the
perspective of people who werefully recovered.
And as I made progress inrecovery, I found that I was
better, but I wasn't all better,and it seemed like there was
(04:56):
this lack of a mirrored imagebetween my own narrative and the
stories I was reading in books,because I thought all of these
individuals are fully recoveredand I'm not.
So what does that mean?
And what does it mean to be inthis middle place between acute
sickness and full recovery?
So for a long time I thought Iwas the only person in this
place.
But for the book, I ended upsurveying over 700 people from
(05:17):
around the world who have livedexperience with eating disorders
, and 85% of those people saidthat they could identify with
this middle place, and yet theynever really had the words to
describe it, and so I thought,okay, there's something here.
Right, there needs to be agreater conversation around what
it means to be in this messymiddle and what it means to slip
(05:39):
and recognize that both slipsand progress can coexist.
So with this book I want toreally broaden our scope of
understanding around what itmeans to recover and also give
people more words for describingtheir recovery and remove some
of the shame that can come whenyou're not fully recovered.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, and it makes sense.
I've always kind of I guess Ihaven't thought too much about
it, but kind of picturedsomebody in an active eating
disorder and then fine, andthere has to be so much in the
middle.
It's just like, if we'retalking about, recovering
alcoholics still go to AAmeetings years after, because
it's not just a simple we'rejust going to turn this off,
(06:18):
regardless of what your issue is, that you're dealing with, that
you're fighting.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yes, exactly, and in the eating disorder space, we
still have a long way to go interms of just accepting the fact
that many people do live outtheir lives in this middle place
.
There is a lot of black andwhite language in the field in
terms of people are either sickor they're fully recovered, and
I really understand whytreatment providers push for
(06:43):
full recovery for everyone,because some individuals do
fully recover and I includetheir perspectives in the book
but there's so many of us whoare in this kind of murky
territory of really living withthe vulnerability of the
disorder, and I think we need tohave more real and honest
conversations about what thatlooks like, similar to the way
that other fields, like theaddiction and substance abuse
(07:06):
fields, have had for many years.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
That makes a lot of sense.
Well, one of the things we wantto talk about today is
empowering our listeners, momsand dads, to have hard but
meaningful conversations withtheir kids, in hopes that their
children never go down that path, but knowing that nobody is
(07:30):
going to live a perfect life,our children are going to hit
bumps along the road and so,even though we're talking
specifically about eatingdisorders today, a lot of the
things we're talking are goingto talk about apply to all kinds
of challenges that kids willface and teens will face, right?
Yes, for sure.
So let's just start with that.
How do we talk to kids aboutbody image?
And that's such a broad question, but I guess I want to preface
(07:51):
something that we were sayingbefore we started recording that
growing up in the nineties andthe early two thousands was
difficult for everybody, I'msure, and as a woman, I felt
like you know, growing, yourbody's changing and there's
pressure on you, and at thatpoint we were just seeing the
star magazines with thebeautiful actresses.
Now kids have social mediawhere they're seeing People who
(08:14):
go to school with them lookinglike these famous actresses, and
all of this because of thisheavy conviction.
They have to look amazing tothe world, and so I just can't
imagine.
I can't imagine being a teen intoday's world with those
challenges.
But we're raising them and sowe have to think about it and
(08:34):
learn how to cope with it.
But so knowing all of thosethings like it's such a big
thing, how do we ever begin tohave that conversation with our
kids?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes.
So it's such an important topicto broach and it is not an easy
one to talk about.
I will say that as the motherof a seven-year-old son and a
nine-year-old daughter, and Ifear for the time when they do
begin to use social media andwhen they are exposed to all of
this different content, and so abig part of what I think
(09:03):
parents could benefit from doingis to really talk about how all
bodies are worthy of respect.
I think that that message isreally important and I talk
about that a lot with my kids.
I say all bodies are worthy ofrespect, no matter how short or
tall, no matter how short ortall, no matter how big or small
, because I want them to realizethat they are going to be
(09:24):
exposed to messages that tellthem that their worth is
determined by their weight.
And our society is so deeplyentrenched in diet culture and
in fat phobia and we receive somany messages that essentially
are perpetuating the thin idealand making us believe that it is
morally bad to live in a largerbody, and I think we need to
(09:48):
really have some of these harderconversations with kids around
the fact that they will beexposed to some of this
messaging and they need to tryto recognize it when they see it
.
Because I think the more we cantalk with kids about some of
the pernicious content that theymay be seeing or that they may
one day see, the more we canprepare them to be aware of it
(10:09):
and to call it out as dietculture.
Certainly, we're not going todismantle diet culture anytime
soon, but I think, personally,we can take a stand against it
and say I am not going to lookat skinny talk, for instance.
We know that that's been banned, but there's so much content
like that on social media whereyou have people who are talking
about dieting or who are talkingabout wellness under the guise
(10:33):
of unhealthy behaviors aroundeating.
So that's one aspect of it.
Another is really just trying toavoid labels when it comes to
food.
I say this as someone who, atage 12, was in a health class in
which a teacher was telling usabout what we should and
shouldn't eat and she wouldlabel foods as being good and
(10:55):
bad or healthy and unhealthy,and she would tell us sort of
what foods to avoid, and as apeople pleaser and a
perfectionist, I really wantedto follow what she said.
So I began to believe that Iwould be bad if I ate those
quote unquote bad foods and thatI was good if I ate the good
foods.
And for kids those types oflabels can be harmful because
(11:18):
it's more difficult for kids tounderstand nuance and sometimes
children will begin to ascribethese moral values to food when
they hear that there are certainfoods that are good or bad.
So part of this is eatingdisorder prevention.
Speak as a mother in recoverybut I do tell my kids that all
foods fit and I do let them eata variety of foods.
(11:39):
So there's no foods that arereally off limits in our house
because I don't want to placethose restrictions on them.
In some ways I think our kidsare attuned to what their bodies
need and are attuned to kind offullness and hunger cues in
ways that a lot of us aren't asadults, and so I try to trust
that.
Of course I don't want themeating Cheetos for every meal,
(12:01):
so I intervene in some ways, butI also don't restrict them from
certain foods, knowing thatthey are growing and they need
to have a variety of foods intheir diet.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So if we don't want to label things as good and bad
but at the same time, we stillwant our kids to understand the
difference between healthy andnot healthy, Are those the words
we should be using, or how doyou approach that so that
they're still learning to makegood choices?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, so I think each family is going to have
different verbiage, differentwords that they want to use.
There are some eating disorderdieticians who I've talked to
who have kind of used the termsgrowing and non-growing foods.
So these are foods that arereally going to give your body
strength, they're really goingto help you grow, and then there
are other foods that we enjoyeating but they're not
(12:45):
necessarily going to help ourbodies to grow in healthy ways,
and so that can be a differentapproach as opposed to just sort
of labeling things as eithergood or bad.
Those words tend to be justdifficult to understand
sometimes and people can sort ofdefine those in different ways
(13:05):
that could be harmful.
So the growing versusnon-growing foods is an approach
that can be helpful for some.
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And so before we kind of turn to, what do we do if we
feel like our child isstruggling with something like
this is there?
Are there any other practicaltips like that that we could use
at home before we get to thatstage where we have to, you know
, before we're worried thatthere is an issue.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah.
So I also think it's reallyimportant to try to create
community around food.
So thinking about how we caninvolve kids in making food and
making dishes and giving them asay over what foods they want
this is something that I've hadto really think a lot about,
because one of the imprints ofmy own disorder is that I do
(13:47):
tend to exert a fair amount ofcontrol in the kitchen and that
I like to make the meals.
I like to prepare the food forthe kids.
But I recently enrolled them ina cooking camp and they really
took so much pleasure in justtrying different foods and
making the foods themselves, andit was this really important
reminder that we need to empowerkids to make choices around
(14:10):
food, to see food as somethingthat can be fun, as something
that really gives our bodystrength and fuel.
And the more we can involvethem in the kitchen, the more we
can sort of be together as afamily at mealtimes.
I think the healthierrelationships we can build
around food with our kids.
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
And just a side note too, my kids are a little bit
older, they're 12 and 16, andthey both one particularly loves
to cook.
Actually, I would say he lovesto bake, he likes to make all
the sweets and things.
But as a mom, there is alsosomething really amazing when
they get to that point where youcan say if you don't like what
I fixed for dinner, you can fixsomething on your own.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
That is the most freeing thing.
Yes, exactly, and I think thatthat's really important to give
them options.
There is a woman named EllenSattler who has written some
books about how we feed children, and she talks about just this
approach to putting a meal onthe table and then letting
children kind of pick from thatmeal.
So you're the one, as theparent, choosing what the
(15:10):
children are eating, but thenthey get to serve themselves
what they want and how much theywant, and so it gives them a
little bit more choice over thatand helps them to figure out
what they're wanting in anymoment in time.
So I think that approach canalso be helpful as we think
about providing good, nutritiousmeals for our children but also
giving them some sense ofautonomy over what to eat.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Absolutely.
And if it helps avoid some ofthe dinnertime tantrums too,
over foods, you know, thenthat's absolutely a win.
I love that idea.
That's a great idea.
So kind of moving then towards,let's say, we're in a situation
where we're worried that ourchild is really maybe going down
a path that we don't want forthem.
How do we start to have thoseconversations in a way that
(15:54):
they're going to listen and beopen to talking to us?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yes.
So I would say that you reallywant to trust your gut in these
situations.
If you feel like something iswrong, then it's important to
broach that conversation.
It's also important to notethat many people struggling with
eating disorders, andparticularly children, are often
in denial, and so they may notbelieve that they have an eating
(16:17):
disorder.
There's often this mentalitythat people struggling with
eating disorders think thatthey're not sick enough, right?
They think, oh, I'm eatingenough, or I'm not sick enough,
I'm not skinny enough to beanorexic.
So there's a fair amount ofdenial that comes into play here
, as well as a fair amount ofsecrecy.
So if it's gotten to the pointwhere you are noticing behavior
(16:39):
changes, then that means thatyou really need to act, because
most likely, these behaviorshave been going on behind closed
doors and it's gotten to thepoint where they're prevalent
enough that you're seeing them.
So it's important to haveconversations with kids, using
nonjudgmental language andreally approaching it with a
(17:00):
sense of curiosity, right, andsaying I've noticed, for
instance, that you've beenreally retreating during
mealtimes.
It seems like you haven'treally been wanting to eat.
Or I've noticed that you'vebeen going to the bathroom every
time after you eat, right,which could be a sign that
someone is purging and reallyjust saying what you've been
(17:23):
noticing, as opposed to goinginto the conversation in a very
accusatory way and saying Ican't believe that you've not
been eating or what you'renoticing, and then opening up
avenues for storytelling wherethe child can begin to hopefully
(17:43):
tell you a little bit moreabout what's happening right.
So being able to say I'venoticed these things happening
and I want to talk with youabout them.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about what you're noticing
right, or what's going on foryou right now?
I want to be here, I want tohelp you and I'm concerned,
right, and really stating that Ithink is important.
(18:04):
The things that are notimportant are when you go into
it with accusations or when yousay why can't you just eat right
?
Or you're so smart, why can'tyou figure this out?
Or step on the scale, you'llsee you're losing weight.
Those were all comments that myfamily made to me when I was
younger, and they came from aplace of love, but also just
real confusion over what wasgoing on.
(18:24):
So I think part of this, too,is doing a little bit of our own
kind of psychoeducation where,even before having these
conversations, we try to read upon eating disorders a little
bit more, try to get a sense ofthem, try to kind of get more
familiar with the differentsymptoms, so that we can just
have that knowledge in our backpocket before we have these
(18:45):
conversations.
The other thing, too, isrevisiting these conversations,
not just having one, and if thechild denies it, then just
forgetting about it, and it maybe that you end up needing to
take your child to a medicalprovider just to be able to
assess them and see reallywhat's going on.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, I think that it's hard as parents hey, we
want to fix things right, wewant them to be healthy and
happy, and when they're not, wewant to fix things.
And for me it is giving myyoungest as an example.
He's a quiet little guy and ifsomething is upsetting him he
does not want to talk about it.
And I talk all the time and soit kills me when I'm like what's
(19:26):
wrong, tell me what's wrong soI can help you.
And it just pushes him fartheraway thing.
When we're talking about, I mean, he might be upset because he
and his friend had a little tiffor something.
When we're talking aboutsomething so personal and when
there's a lot of shame around it, we can't expect them just to
be like oh mom, I'm so glad youasked, so we just keep having
(19:54):
these conversations.
I mean, like you said, I knowat some point you might have to
have medical professionalsintervene, but I think also
that's hard for parents to dofor fear that they're going to
push their kid farther away byhaving somebody else step in
again in something that's sopersonal.
So what do you say to the momthat's worried about that?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I would say that it's worth getting that intervention
, because we do know fromresearch that the earlier a
child receives treatment, thebetter the prognosis, and so the
longer we wait to get childrenhelp, the farther they're going
to descend into their disorderand the harder it gets to
recover from that disorder.
So ultimately you are going tofeel like you're losing your
(20:38):
child if they are kind ofdescending deeper into that
disorder and so there is goingto be this sort of feeling of
separation.
It's better to just be able togo to a provider, ideally one
that specializes in eatingdisorders, so that could be an
eating disorder therapist, butcould also be an eating disorder
dietician.
And I say that because thereare a lot of medical providers
(21:00):
who really don't know a wholelot about eating disorders.
The average doctor receiveszero to two hours of training on
eating disorders, which is mindboggling when you consider that
30 million Americans willstruggle with an eating disorder
in their lifetime, and I delvepretty deeply into that in the
book.
But I think that that'simportant too right that there
(21:21):
are instances sometimes whenparents will go to medical
providers who really don't knowmuch about eating disorders, and
if their child's not clinicallyunderweight, the provider may
say well, we don't really knowwhat's going on or we don't
think they have an eatingdisorder.
So I think that that's reallyimportant.
It's so unfortunate, but I'vetalked with countless people for
whom that's been the case, andit was also the case for me when
(21:41):
I was a child that mypediatrician did not recognize I
needed help.
So I think the extent to whichyou can find an eating disorder
clinician is going to really behelpful and yes, I would say,
just try to initially have thoseconversations with the child,
but then, if that's not workingand you're really still
concerned, really seeking moreprofessional help for your child
(22:03):
.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Just as if we suspected something was going on
.
Maybe they had a growth ontheir arm or something that
shouldn't be there and they'relike, oh, just leave me alone,
we wouldn't just ignore it.
We need to go to thedermatologist and get this
checked out.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It's the same thing, yes, exactly, and I think too
it's also about learning what isthis right or how can I help my
child and providers can reallyassist with that.
Years ago the sort of approachwas to really try to extricate
the child from the home and thethinking was that mothers were
to blame for children who hadeating disorders.
(22:37):
And there's a lot less parentblaming now because we know that
certainly parents can'tcategorically cause eating
disorders.
Certainly parents can haveinfluence over their children
and the way they think aboutfood and their bodies, but we've
moved away from that motherblaming and we have really sort
of realized that particularlyfor children, it is especially
(22:58):
helpful if we can keep them inthe home and also help parents
to really work closely with them.
So it's not a perfect sort ofmode of treatment, but now there
is a treatment that was notaround in the late nineties when
I was struggling and it's knownas family-based treatment.
It is kind of research,evidence-based treatment that
really tries to keep the childat home and really works very
(23:22):
closely with the parents onhelping the child and figuring
out how they can be of greaterassistance to the child and how
they can really sort of do thatin a way that doesn't strain the
relationship.
So I think that that's a reallyimportant sort of development
and treatment in terms of how wecare for kids with eating
disorders.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Absolutely.
And are we seeing more peoplewith eating disorders these days
and at younger ages than before?
Is it actually growing?
I mean, it seems like it shouldbe because of what we see in
our faces all the time.
It is growing.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yes, so the rate of eating disorders is increasing.
We saw this particularly duringthe COVID-19 pandemic, where
the rate of hospitalizations foreating disorders was just
skyrocketing and that really gotsome attention at the time.
I have talked with differentdoctors who have also confirmed
this, that they are seeing moreand more patients with eating
(24:18):
disorders, and at one point Iwas interviewing my medical
doctor who treated me years agowhen I was first hospitalized,
and she still treats eatingdisorder patients today and I
said well, why do you think thatthe number is increasing so
much?
And she said well, I know why.
Social media, right.
And so again, we can't alwaysjust blame one thing.
So we can't blame social mediaalone for causing eating
(24:40):
disorders, but certainly when wethink about just all of the
content that children areexposed to, that teens are
exposed to on social media, it'sno wonder that we see more
people falling into thesedisorders.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Well, I have just a couple more questions for you,
if you have another coupleminutes.
This has been so enlighteningso far.
I wanted to ask you what do yousay if the mom who's listening
right now says okay, mydaughter's best friend, I know
she's going down this path, mydaughter knows it.
What do we do?
I'm not the, I'm not the mom.
You know I can't broach thatkind of conversation.
(25:15):
What do you say to somebodywho's witnessing this?
You know closely, but from afar?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
So it's always tricky and of course it's going to
depend on kind of the differentindividuals, but I would say
it's really important to try totalk to the parents of that
child.
I say that as someone who wishesthat other people had
intervened sooner with me,because there were people who
noticed that I was losing weight, but I don't think they really
(25:44):
knew what to do or what to say,or they felt like it wasn't
their place and the reaction youmay get may not be positive
right.
The parent may come back and saywho do you think you are?
Or I know my child, they're notstruggling, but maybe you plant
the seed right that that childneeds care or that child needs
something.
It could be too that the parentmay be struggling with their
(26:06):
own eating disorder and may feela lot of shame around the fact
that their child now isbeginning to struggle.
We do know that eatingdisorders are genetic, and so
there is that likelihood that achild of a parent with an eating
disorder could also end upstruggling.
Recognize that, then it isimportant to try to talk to the
(26:32):
parents and to try to do itagain from a place of real deep
seated care and not from a placeof you know kind of blaming the
parent or shaming the parent inany way, right?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, all right, and then I guess, my last question
for you.
You talk a lot in your bookabout living in this middle
ground, and I'm sure there arepeople listening that are like,
yeah, I got it, I'm there.
What do you say to them?
Obviously, we want them to readyour book and learn so much
more about how they can helpthemselves.
But what do you say to thosepeople?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So I would say that it is not a failure to be in the
middle place, and I also thinkit's important for parents to
recognize that the middle placeis a place where you can lead a
full life, because I think veryoften when parents think about
their own kids struggling, theythink, oh my gosh, is my child
just going to be living withthis for the rest of their lives
(27:21):
?
I want them to be fullyrecovered.
I don't want them in thismiddle place.
But I think it's reallyimportant to recognize that the
middle place is not aboutsettling for stagnancy, it's not
about being sick for your life,but it's really about
recognizing that the disorderremains a vulnerability.
And so in this place, it'simportant to just recognize when
(27:42):
slips happen and to know thatthose slips don't have to turn
into uncontrollable slides.
Instead of being grounds forfailure, they can really be
opportunities for growth.
So it's so easy to demonizeslips and to just be so hard on
ourself when we have a slip up,but it's just as important to
look at that slip and say, okay,that happened.
(28:04):
What can I learn from that?
How do I move forward?
Because if you think about thatvery word slip, it suggests
some sort of movement, becauseyou can't slip if you're
standing still.
So often, when we are makingstrides in our recovery, that is
when we slip, because we aretrying to get better and trying
to do things that arechallenging and that are forcing
us to step outside of ourcomfort zone.
(28:26):
So it's really important tocelebrate those wins and those
steps forward, as opposed toonly fixating on the slips and
the negative repercussions ofthem.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Well, mallory, I am grateful toyou for taking what obviously
is a painful and a private thingand putting it out there for
the world in hopes of helpingother people and I'm sure that
you are and if you are listeningto this or watching this, we
will link to Mallory's book, soit's super easy for you to check
out.
And, mallory, if you have anyother resources or anything that
(28:57):
we could provide to people, wecan add some extra links below,
or they will also link to allyour social media accounts so
they can connect with you aswell.
So, again, thank you so muchfor your time and
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