October 18, 2024 • 27 mins
On this episode of Speaking Of…College of Charleston, we talk to Bret Lott, professor of English and New York Times Best-Selling author, about his latest book, his upcoming retirement after decades of teaching at the College and the importance of maintaining hope. Jesse Kunze, our sound engineer, is stepping into the host’s seat today because he is a former student of Lott’s and because the two spent a lot of time together in this very studio recording the audio version of Lott’s latest book, Gather the Olives, On Food and Hope and the Holy Land.
Featured on this episode:
Bret Lott is the bestselling author of eight novels, three story collections and three nonfiction books; his fifteenth book, a nonfiction collection titled Cherries on the Golan, Olives in Jerusalem, will be out in 2023. His first novel, The Man Who Owned Vermont, was read in nationwide broadcasts on public radio. and his novel Jewel was both an Oprah Book Club selection and made into a film. His work has been translated into eight languages. He received his MFA in fiction from the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, in 1984, studying under Jay Neugeboren and James Baldwin.
He has spoken on Flannery O'Connor at the White House, and served as Fulbright Senior American Scholar to Bar-llan University in Tel Aviv, Israel. From 2006 to 2013 he served as a member of the National Council on the Arts, and from 2010 to 2022 he directed the Spoleto Summer Study Abroad program in English at the College.
If you enjoyed this episode with Bret Lott, listen to an earlier episode where he shares why he loves teaching.
Resources from this episode:
- Podcast with Bret Lott on teaching MFA students in Bahrain
- Gather the Olives, on Food and Hope in the Holy Land
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
amy stockwell (00:10):
Brett on this episode of speaking of College
of Charleston, we talk to BrettLott, professor of English and
New York Times, Best SellingAuthor. We're so grateful that
Lott made time to come to thestudio and talk to us about his
latest book, upcoming retirementdecades of teaching and the
importance of maintaining hope.
Jesse Kunz, our sound engineer,is stepping into the host seat
(00:32):
today because he's a formerstudent of lots and because the
two spent a lot of time togetherin this very same studio
recording the audio version oflot's latest book, gather the
olives on food and hope in theHoly Land. Hi,
Unknown (00:49):
Britt, thanks for coming back to the studio to
talk about your latest book.
Gather the olives. So I had theprivilege of working with you to
record the audiobook version,which we'll hopefully be
releasing in the near future.
Let's talk about what it waslike for you to record your
first audio. Well, youhad, you got it all wrong. I had
the privilege of working withyou. You were the brains behind
the whole thing, and it was myfirst time reading it. And I
(01:16):
give readings all the time, youknow, going to different places
and reading from my books overthe years and but this was was
very different to me. And Ithink we talked about this, how
when you're standing in front of50, 100 couple 100 people,
there's a whole different feelfor you're speaking to a crowd.
But when, when I what I realizedworking with you was that when
(01:39):
you're reading a book, it's likeyou're talking to one person.
You're reading to a friend. Andit was, it was different, you
know, it was, there were timeswe had to redo things, and I
would go too fast, and might,might not, have been as close to
the mic as I needed to be, andsometimes it felt a little
(01:59):
monotone, because I was sittingin a room with you and just, you
know, reading this book. But wedefinitely had to go through our
growing pains on learning how todo it, yeah,
and then I think we figured outhow to do it, and it sounded, I
think it sounds great, and I'mlooking forward to it coming up
(02:21):
pretty soon. I'm it's the firsttime the publisher of Slant
books has ever done anaudiobook. So they are having to
learn how to actually go throughall that. And so it's not
actually simultaneous with thepublication of the book, which
is usually what happens. But orgo ahead, I'm
in the same boat, because I havenever edited a audiobook, and I
(02:45):
have been having a time figuringout how to how to place every
single track listing and get allthe volume right. So I know it's
a bit of a struggle.
It was very interesting becausesomething would happen, like we
talked about, about, you know,motorcycle co pilot, oh yeah, we
had a, we had a terriblemotorcycle friend who would
(03:06):
drive by about every 15 minutes,really,
just circle every session, even,even though we were here in the
studio, still, you know, thatsound would come through, but
then we'd have to stop and we'dhave to pick up again, or I
would really flub a line, and weboth, you know, we just stopped,
and I'm just still havinglistened to the whole thing the
(03:31):
way that you were able to justedit in, you know, those pauses
and those those places where Ihad to pick up again. I thought
this guy's great. He's done areally cool job of editing and
making everything smooth, and Ilook forward to it, and I'm very
happy to have gotten to workwith you. Well, thank you. Fun.
It was a blast. It'sa long time, six months,
(03:55):
but I'm right. It was sixmonths. We
were both working professionals,so we had this work around
schedules, right? All right, soyou finished writing the book
before the Hamas attacks ofOctober 7, 2023 after talking
with your editor about possiblyholding the book back from
publication, you decided to adda note to readers. Can you read
(04:18):
that passage for us and talkabout why you felt it was
important to include it in thebook. Sure,
it was very strange handing thisin, because suddenly it was,
there'sour motorcycle, there's our
motorcycle. Man right outside.
It was very strange turningthis, I turned it in, like six
(04:39):
weeks before October 7. And atthat time it was, it was a book
about living in Israel andtraveling, and it was about the
food and everything. But thensuddenly it was, it was going to
go out into the world about aplace that had just. Totally
(05:00):
erupted on October 7, and theneverything that has come since
then to this day. And thepublisher, Greg Wolfe, said, You
know what, we need to put a kindof marker at the beginning of
this thing, in order to give ita context, rather than just, oh,
here's a book about traveling inIsrael and eating food. So this
(05:23):
is, this is what we ended upwith. It's called simply a word.
I turned this book into thepublisher in the summer of 2023
then came the horrors of October7, and after, immediately, these
pages became missives frombefore. And now, as you read
these words. They are operatingin the after. There is no going
(05:43):
back yet. Here is a book. It isabout food and about communion.
It is about taste and aboutpeople and place. It is about
breaking bread and with whom webreak it. My wife, Melanie, and
I lived in Jerusalem for awhile, five months, to be exact,
and have stayed there forextended periods, for at last
count, a half dozen times. Wehave traveled to the West Bank,
(06:07):
to East Jerusalem and toRamallah. We have been to one
side and the other of the walland found good and beautiful
people on both. But let it beknown that I am no expert on
Israel, no professional guide orapologist or even dilettante.
Please, don't imagine this willbe anything like a cookbook or a
list of suggested tours or abook on war, barbarity,
(06:30):
retribution or response,measured or disproportionate. It
is not a book on social justiceor political stance or a solving
of the Middle East situation onestate or two, state or war or
peace, protracted or paused. Bythe time you read these words,
the world will have movedforward into realms unknown, and
(06:51):
even these terms I've paradedabout just now will seem
antiquated because of whatevernew news will have arrived via
the predictable ways News of theWorld arrives. This is a book
about another story to thisplace, one of people to people,
and the way, when sharing ameal, whether cherries from a
roadside stand or pork ribssauced and grilled on the stoop
(07:14):
of an Arabic apartment, therecan be peace. We lived there and
visited and have partaken inmeals with more people through
the years, Israeli andPalestinian alike than we can
count, from falafel withnewfound friends the best street
corner shawarma stand inJerusalem's German colony, the
place set with maybe a dozenplastic chairs and a window out
(07:36):
onto the street to a launch ofinnumerable fresh salads
cluttered across a flowerplastic tablecloth in a family's
home at the border with Lebanon,the father seeking to restore
the Aramaic language as far andwide as he can, to a food truck
hamburger at a minor leaguebaseball game the diamond
settled in a field of sunflowersoutside Beit Shemesh, where The
(08:00):
Ark of the Covenant first cameto rest after the Philistines
had sent the tumor inducingthing back to Israel on a wooden
cart pulled by those straightarrow milk cows. We've eaten in
a lot of places, and we have metgood people all along the way.
This is a book about them. Thisis a book about their places.
(08:21):
This is a book about their food.
It is an account from before,yes, but it is an account of the
way food and place and peopleinform and enlighten and broaden
and magnify what it means to behuman. Now that we are after,
there is no going back, but nowas forever, there is hope. With
this book, I'm trying to give aglimpse of that hope, because
(08:42):
hope still lives. And it was a,you know, the I had a little
intro before that, you know,just kind of like, here's this
book, and it was seemed to havea lot lighter heart to it. But
after what had happened, reallyhad to step back from it. It
actually had recipes in theoriginal version of the book,
(09:05):
which we were happy to include.
But once all this happened, itseemed silly, and, you know,
precious to be putting recipesout there in the in the the
midst of war, but it's still westill believed in it, having a
(09:28):
place to speak to hope and peaceat a time when hope and peace
are what is necessary. Yeah,I think it establishes the book
so well, because it reallyfocuses on those, those themes,
but it also kind of shows us thepower of food, you know, and
which I think you do so well inthis, in your book, because I
(09:48):
was just struck by yourincredible descriptions of such
mouth watering food and theconnection we. And so often find
through breaking bread with oneanother, you want to just talk
about the power of food that youexperienced. I remember
(10:09):
recording with you, and one timeyou said, Man, I'm hungry. Yeah.
And I thought, yes, yeah.
No, you that you describe suchamazing food. I mean, the, you
know, cafe hafuq and and thecoffee, the bagels, your search
for pork, which I just found sofunny, right? But you talk about
(10:33):
the spice Zaatar in the book,and I was wondering maybe if you
could read a little bit of thatsection, because I found it
really powerful. Sure,Zaatar is this spice that's
everywhere. And I knew of it. Iprobably had it before, but when
we got there, we realized thisis just everywhere. And so
there's a whole essay that'sdedicated to Zaatar, but here's
a little passage about what ittastes like in its history.
(10:58):
There's an eto. Eto. Okay, nowlet me start over. There's an
etymological descriptor for thekind of word Zaatar. Zaatar is a
loan word which means exactlywhat you think a word loan,
loaned out from elsewhere andgrown into another language. And
though you don't hear the wordZaatar bandied about in American
(11:21):
kitchens like you do mustard,French, an easy one, or ketchup,
Chinese, or even coleslaw,Dutch. It's a pretty common,
very common loan word in theMiddle East, because it's
everywhere. It's an Arabic wordloaned out to Hebrew, and the
spice mixture is used on prettymuch anything, but it's also a
valued element of a dish, not athrowaway spice sprinkled over
(11:45):
something. For the sake oftradition, I've put it on
chicken and steak and everyroasted vegetable you can think
of, on scrambled, fried and hardboiled eggs, on pizza and salad,
and sometimes in the morning,simply on a piece of toast with
olive oil. And every time ittastes like Zaatar, and
everything tastes more for it.
(12:08):
Whereas when you put salt in adish that needs more salt, and
you taste it, and providedyou've added the right amount of
salt, you'll say better. Butwhen you add Zaatar, you'll say,
there the taste, dark green, alittle bitter, a forest lemon,
an old taste, as in a taste pasttime, a harkening back to some
(12:30):
other place, the earth. There'salso a murkiness in its meaning
and common usage, in that Zaataris both an herb and the spice
mixture. The herb itself,oreganum siriacum, lives
throughout the Middle East andlooks something a little like
lavender, and then it grows onstalks with leaves that same
(12:51):
pale, gray, green, though theyare, broader, bigger, more like
stubby sage than anything else,but Zaatar, the spice mixture
doesn't always contain Zaatarthe herb, sort of like how a
Kleenex is always a tissue, buta tissue isn't always a Kleenex,
yeah, like that. I think. Howabout this? Oftentimes you'll
(13:14):
find in Zaatar the spice mixturedried marjoram and, or oregano
and, or thyme. But know Zaatarthe herb, sometimes there will
be dried lemon or orange zest inthere too, and dill, now and
again, even caraway seeds andcumin. But the real thing is
made simply of Zaatar the herb,those SES those toasted sesame
(13:37):
seeds, ground sumac, with itsgloriously rich burgundy hue, a
little bit of sea salt and adash of olive oil, things get
even more involved the deeperyou dig into that etymology. The
classical Hebrew word for Zaatarin the Bible is ezov, which,
when it was translated into theGreek, became the word hyssop.
(13:59):
And now, in this moment of wordson a page, zaatar's surprise in
my triangular newsprint footballthat's a reference a little bit
earlier dropped into my hands bya boy selling bread suddenly
multiplies in manifold, inmysterious ways, its primary
ingredient and namesake in theherb mixture, the tool for
(14:20):
painting lamb's blood on doorframes the first Passover. It
becomes the means by which oneis cleansed, whether from
leprosy and Leviticus or thedeepest reaches of sin. Cleanse
me with hyssop and I will beclean. Wash me and I will be
whiter than snow. David criesout in Psalm 51 in First Kings,
it becomes an element of thewisdom of Solomon. He spoke 3000
(14:44):
Proverbs, and his songs numbered1005 he spoke about plant life,
from the cedar of Lebanon to thehyssop that grows out of walls.
And the Gospel of John tells usof its role in quenching
Christ's thirst as He hung thereon the cross. The sour wine, one
last moment of earthly reliefbefore his work here is
complete. After this, Jesus,knowing that all was now
(15:08):
finished, said to fulfill thescripture, I thirst a jar full
of sour wine stood there. Sothey put a sponge full of the
sour wine on a hyssop ranch andheld it to his mouth. When Jesus
had received the sour wine, hesaid, It is finished, and he
bowed his head and gave up hisspirit. Somehow, in this
tablespoon full of green andbitter herbs mixed with other
(15:31):
spices and seeds, I am partakingof the history of my faith,
tasting time and place andsalvation. It is a marvelous
flavor. I just found it fun towrite about how just, just
thinking more deeply and deeplyand deeply about what food I was
(15:51):
eating back there, and just theramifications and the, you know,
the rock dropped in a pond andcircles and go out from it was
fun not to just sit there andeat the food, but like, oh,
what's the story of this? Well,we
can all relate. I mean, it's sopowerful, because I think we can
all relate to just theconnection we find in food. I
(16:15):
think anyone you know,regardless of where you're from,
has had an experience where theyhave bonded with someone family
or stranger over food. And Ijust think you're just such
rich. Writing is is justphenomenal. I thank you for
reading that.
Well, you're right. You'reright. Food is what brings us
together. I mean, food iscommunion. Food is sitting with
(16:36):
people and coming to know eachother, whether it's family
you've known your whole life,or, you know, new people. So,
yeah, food is, is such a aninducer of memories and
associations and and importanceto anyway? Sorry, I'm just
rambling.
(16:56):
Oh no, you're, you are good. Sospeaking on memories and kind of
shifting a little bit to toyour, you know, broader writing
career. In a previous interview,you quoted the writer, James
Baldwin, a former teacher ofyours, who said quote, once
you've learned one thing, moveon to the next end quote to
(17:17):
explain your approach to writingin different genres. You've
written both fiction andnonfiction, and are now working
on a science fiction novel. Whatdoes that do to your writing
process? Do you feel like you'restarting all over again when you
move on to the next thing?
Every time, every time it's itfeels like starting over again.
But that's, that's fun, okay,when he told me that I was just
(17:44):
young and I had written a fewshort stories, and I hadn't
written my first novel yet, butwhen I got to the end of my
first novel, I was like, I thinkI know what he means. I'm not
going to write that book again.
There's another one, and it'snot the next book wasn't far,
far afield. It was, it was itwas about some of the same
people, but it was from adistinctly different point of
(18:05):
view and about different things.
And it's really my first bookwas about the Manuel Vermont is
about an RC Cola salesman livesin Western Massachusetts, and
his wife leaves him. I was an RCCola salesman and went to grad
school in Western Massachusetts.
My wife never left me. Thefiction part was, what if my
(18:27):
wife were to leave me, and wherewould that believe me? So that's
that was as close to me that asof any book that I've written.
The next book was from a femalepoint of view at a place where
my wife worked while we were inWestern Mass. So there were some
people who were there, but itwas now from a female point of
(18:47):
view, and it was trying tofigure out, what does the world
look like from her point ofview, and but So my life has
gone. Each book has gone fartherafield, science fiction, exactly
the science fiction book is.
It's, it's the farthest to feelthat you could be science
(19:11):
fiction. It's still about, I'mstill writing about family. I'm
still writing about a husbandand wife, because in science
fiction, they'll still behusbands and wives. You know,
it's about the concerns betweenthem and their child and and,
but also this sense of what ishistory, and being able to visit
and understand history. But itis. It's been a great piece of
(19:35):
advice, I would say, sort of,you know, foundational piece of
advice that I received from Mr.
Baldwin all those years ago,because it's allowed me to,
like, start over every time Ievery semester, I use a book
called A Giacometti portrait,which is by James Lord, and it's
about James Lord was an artcritic and writer back in 1965
he sat for Giacometti for 18days to do a painting. Mm. And
(19:58):
what he did is he just wrotedown everything to Jocko, and he
said, Who this time was at thepinnacle of his career as an
artist. And he just kept saying,you know, I don't know what I'm
doing. I don't know how to dothis. And what, what he had to
do was to begin again everytime, and not rely on the
successes that he's had before,because relying on prior
(20:20):
successes makes you notencounter this news like, oh
yeah, I got this in the bag.
I've done this before every timeyou go at it. And this was the
real value of that advice, was,every time you go to make
something, you need to make abrand new thing and not just
repeat the thing that youalready know how to do. So
that's what Giacometti says allthe time that, you know, I don't
(20:44):
know anything. I have toremember what I was like when I
was 18 and doing my firstpainting every time he says
about it. So I feel like I'm apunk kid every time for every
book this one gather thehollows. It was I really had to
think about. Now, I've neverreally written about food. What
is food? How do you write aboutfood? You put it in your mouth,
you chew. It tastes good. Thistastes good. You know, there's
(21:07):
more to it.
I think you got a little betterat it than that, but I hope
so. I hope so you're generousand you're very patient through
all those hours that werecorded. Wow,
it was, it was a blast. But, Imean, I think that's just
fantastic advice. In myextremely limited writing
experience in college, when Iwas here I am, I took three
(21:29):
semesters of fiction, and everytime I was what the hell was I
thinking then, you know, eachsemester was an was a fresh me.
So, success, yeah. So it's oneof some of my favorite classes
here at the college. So speakingof your illustrious, long
teaching career, sadly for allof us, you're retiring this
(21:52):
spring after teaching at thecollege for almost four decades.
What are you going to do withall your free time?
That's what my wife asks me. Hesays, You better have a plan.
And I'm not sure what the planis. It'll be to write. We love
to travel, and so we'll betraveling more.
(22:12):
And where are you going to betraveling? You think, anywhere?
Fun.
Oh yeah, we're going to Italy.
Italy, beautiful. We areroutinely going there, but we
also, we also want to go anyway,Scotland. We we want to go to we
want to go to Croatia. Have notbeen to Croatia, but Croatia is
supposed to be beautiful. AndSlovenia, so that's kind of in
(22:32):
the dark end. Fantastic. Yeah,so in writing and mowing my
lawn. I have an area.
Well, so um, what will you Iwill you be missing students?
What will you be missing aboutkind of your time teaching?
Somebody asked me that the otherday, and they said, What do you?
(22:55):
What did you? What are you gonnamiss most? And I said, I'm gonna
miss most being actually in theclassroom talking with students,
that's what I'm going to missmost. You know, I majority of my
my time is spent reading thingsand marking them up, and I'm,
I'm happy to do that, but beingwith students and talking with
them in this sometimes the lookon a student's face when they
(23:18):
understand what you're talkingabout and they're seeing the
world in a different in adifferent way because of
something you might have said,but also listening to them and
understanding them is the bestpart. Just being in interaction
with students in a classroom iscoolest thing if I if the job
would only be that, it'd beawesome. You know, that's not
(23:40):
that. It's a bad job, butthere's also some other things
that go into being a professorthat I probably won't miss, but
the college has been verysupportive all through the
years, and last night, I gaveprobably my last reading here at
the college. I read from gatherthe olives and and I not
(24:02):
bragging. I'm not pregnantbragging, but I they gave me a
standing ovation at the end. Andthat was I was like, Wow, this
has never happened in my lifewhere people give me standing
ovation. I think they're feelingsorry for me, the old guys
retiring.
But I'm sure that's it. But Iappreciate it. Oh, very good.
(24:23):
We're kind of running low ontime here, but I would be remiss
if I didn't ask, what are youreading now? Do you have any
book recommendations? Because Igotta pick your brain on what's
good right now. Iam reading right now. Okay, so I
love the television series, slowhorses on apple. Oh,
I have been watching as well,very good.
(24:44):
I'm reading. There's like six ofthese books. The author, I think
his name is Mick or Nick Herron.
And I'm reading the first one,slow horses. And it's, it's,
it's, follows the series. But abook is, you realize reading.
Book. It's like, oh, books areso much better. There's so much
more that you did, so muchdeeper. So I'm reading that
(25:05):
right now, and I'm not goinghigh brown on you, but I'm also
reading at the same timeUlysses. I mean, the Odyssey
about Ulysses. I'm reading thatand just so I'm going like, sort
of the popular classic, both ofthose at the same time. Well,
very good, yeah, not, not atonce.
(25:28):
I don't think they would quitemesh together. It's a small
world, because I have, I gotinto a rabbit hole watching
that, um, that show, yeah. AndI'm not reading those books, but
I am reading the John le Carrespy novels, I am in the middle
of the second of the Tinker,Tailor Soldier Spy trilogy. So
(25:49):
in my car,on Audible, I'm listening to the
honorable schoolboy. Weare on the same book. That's
crazy, people. Wedid not. We did not.
We did not.
I guess I would say I'm about75% I am. I'm in the last, like,
like, I'm mainly listening toit. I'm in the last, like, three
(26:10):
or four hours. So we're probablyon the same chapter.
Five hours left is what I have.
It's like, 22 hours long.
Oh, it's, I love it. There'snothing better than nothing like
a long audioI like, I'm into to the reading
these really good spy novels nowall of a sudden,
(26:31):
well, I'm gonna take your tipsand start reading the slow
horses series. Then, okay, well,Brett, thank you so much for
coming in here having thisconversation. It's been a blast,
and I cannot waitfor you. Thank you. Thank you.
amy stockwell (26:50):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
speaking of College ofCharleston with today's guest,
Brett Lott. If you liked thisepisode, please help us reach
more listeners by sharing itwith a friend or leaving a
review for show notes and moreepisodes. Visit the College of
Charleston's official news site,the college
today@today.charleston.edu, youcan find episodes on all major
(27:16):
podcast platforms. This episodewas produced by Amy Stockwell,
with recording and soundengineering by Jesse Kunz from
the Division of InformationTechnology. You.
Brett on this episode of speaking of College
of Charleston, we talk to BrettLott, professor of English and
New York Times, Best SellingAuthor. We're so grateful that
Lott made time to come to thestudio and talk to us about his
latest book, upcoming retirementdecades of teaching and the
importance of maintaining hope.
Jesse Kunz, our sound engineer,is stepping into the host seat
(00:32):
today because he's a formerstudent of lots and because the
two spent a lot of time togetherin this very same studio
recording the audio version oflot's latest book, gather the
olives on food and hope in theHoly Land. Hi,
Unknown (00:49):
Britt, thanks for coming back to the studio to
talk about your latest book.
Gather the olives. So I had theprivilege of working with you to
record the audiobook version,which we'll hopefully be
releasing in the near future.
Let's talk about what it waslike for you to record your
first audio. Well, youhad, you got it all wrong. I had
the privilege of working withyou. You were the brains behind
the whole thing, and it was myfirst time reading it. And I
(01:16):
give readings all the time, youknow, going to different places
and reading from my books overthe years and but this was was
very different to me. And Ithink we talked about this, how
when you're standing in front of50, 100 couple 100 people,
there's a whole different feelfor you're speaking to a crowd.
But when, when I what I realizedworking with you was that when
(01:39):
you're reading a book, it's likeyou're talking to one person.
You're reading to a friend. Andit was, it was different, you
know, it was, there were timeswe had to redo things, and I
would go too fast, and might,might not, have been as close to
the mic as I needed to be, andsometimes it felt a little
(01:59):
monotone, because I was sittingin a room with you and just, you
know, reading this book. But wedefinitely had to go through our
growing pains on learning how todo it, yeah,
and then I think we figured outhow to do it, and it sounded, I
think it sounds great, and I'mlooking forward to it coming up
(02:21):
pretty soon. I'm it's the firsttime the publisher of Slant
books has ever done anaudiobook. So they are having to
learn how to actually go throughall that. And so it's not
actually simultaneous with thepublication of the book, which
is usually what happens. But orgo ahead, I'm
in the same boat, because I havenever edited a audiobook, and I
(02:45):
have been having a time figuringout how to how to place every
single track listing and get allthe volume right. So I know it's
a bit of a struggle.
It was very interesting becausesomething would happen, like we
talked about, about, you know,motorcycle co pilot, oh yeah, we
had a, we had a terriblemotorcycle friend who would
(03:06):
drive by about every 15 minutes,really,
just circle every session, even,even though we were here in the
studio, still, you know, thatsound would come through, but
then we'd have to stop and we'dhave to pick up again, or I
would really flub a line, and weboth, you know, we just stopped,
and I'm just still havinglistened to the whole thing the
(03:31):
way that you were able to justedit in, you know, those pauses
and those those places where Ihad to pick up again. I thought
this guy's great. He's done areally cool job of editing and
making everything smooth, and Ilook forward to it, and I'm very
happy to have gotten to workwith you. Well, thank you. Fun.
It was a blast. It'sa long time, six months,
(03:55):
but I'm right. It was sixmonths. We
were both working professionals,so we had this work around
schedules, right? All right, soyou finished writing the book
before the Hamas attacks ofOctober 7, 2023 after talking
with your editor about possiblyholding the book back from
publication, you decided to adda note to readers. Can you read
(04:18):
that passage for us and talkabout why you felt it was
important to include it in thebook. Sure,
it was very strange handing thisin, because suddenly it was,
there'sour motorcycle, there's our
motorcycle. Man right outside.
It was very strange turningthis, I turned it in, like six
(04:39):
weeks before October 7. And atthat time it was, it was a book
about living in Israel andtraveling, and it was about the
food and everything. But thensuddenly it was, it was going to
go out into the world about aplace that had just. Totally
(05:00):
erupted on October 7, and theneverything that has come since
then to this day. And thepublisher, Greg Wolfe, said, You
know what, we need to put a kindof marker at the beginning of
this thing, in order to give ita context, rather than just, oh,
here's a book about traveling inIsrael and eating food. So this
(05:23):
is, this is what we ended upwith. It's called simply a word.
I turned this book into thepublisher in the summer of 2023
then came the horrors of October7, and after, immediately, these
pages became missives frombefore. And now, as you read
these words. They are operatingin the after. There is no going
(05:43):
back yet. Here is a book. It isabout food and about communion.
It is about taste and aboutpeople and place. It is about
breaking bread and with whom webreak it. My wife, Melanie, and
I lived in Jerusalem for awhile, five months, to be exact,
and have stayed there forextended periods, for at last
count, a half dozen times. Wehave traveled to the West Bank,
(06:07):
to East Jerusalem and toRamallah. We have been to one
side and the other of the walland found good and beautiful
people on both. But let it beknown that I am no expert on
Israel, no professional guide orapologist or even dilettante.
Please, don't imagine this willbe anything like a cookbook or a
list of suggested tours or abook on war, barbarity,
(06:30):
retribution or response,measured or disproportionate. It
is not a book on social justiceor political stance or a solving
of the Middle East situation onestate or two, state or war or
peace, protracted or paused. Bythe time you read these words,
the world will have movedforward into realms unknown, and
(06:51):
even these terms I've paradedabout just now will seem
antiquated because of whatevernew news will have arrived via
the predictable ways News of theWorld arrives. This is a book
about another story to thisplace, one of people to people,
and the way, when sharing ameal, whether cherries from a
roadside stand or pork ribssauced and grilled on the stoop
(07:14):
of an Arabic apartment, therecan be peace. We lived there and
visited and have partaken inmeals with more people through
the years, Israeli andPalestinian alike than we can
count, from falafel withnewfound friends the best street
corner shawarma stand inJerusalem's German colony, the
place set with maybe a dozenplastic chairs and a window out
(07:36):
onto the street to a launch ofinnumerable fresh salads
cluttered across a flowerplastic tablecloth in a family's
home at the border with Lebanon,the father seeking to restore
the Aramaic language as far andwide as he can, to a food truck
hamburger at a minor leaguebaseball game the diamond
settled in a field of sunflowersoutside Beit Shemesh, where The
(08:00):
Ark of the Covenant first cameto rest after the Philistines
had sent the tumor inducingthing back to Israel on a wooden
cart pulled by those straightarrow milk cows. We've eaten in
a lot of places, and we have metgood people all along the way.
This is a book about them. Thisis a book about their places.
(08:21):
This is a book about their food.
It is an account from before,yes, but it is an account of the
way food and place and peopleinform and enlighten and broaden
and magnify what it means to behuman. Now that we are after,
there is no going back, but nowas forever, there is hope. With
this book, I'm trying to give aglimpse of that hope, because
(08:42):
hope still lives. And it was a,you know, the I had a little
intro before that, you know,just kind of like, here's this
book, and it was seemed to havea lot lighter heart to it. But
after what had happened, reallyhad to step back from it. It
actually had recipes in theoriginal version of the book,
(09:05):
which we were happy to include.
But once all this happened, itseemed silly, and, you know,
precious to be putting recipesout there in the in the the
midst of war, but it's still westill believed in it, having a
(09:28):
place to speak to hope and peaceat a time when hope and peace
are what is necessary. Yeah,I think it establishes the book
so well, because it reallyfocuses on those, those themes,
but it also kind of shows us thepower of food, you know, and
which I think you do so well inthis, in your book, because I
(09:48):
was just struck by yourincredible descriptions of such
mouth watering food and theconnection we. And so often find
through breaking bread with oneanother, you want to just talk
about the power of food that youexperienced. I remember
(10:09):
recording with you, and one timeyou said, Man, I'm hungry. Yeah.
And I thought, yes, yeah.
No, you that you describe suchamazing food. I mean, the, you
know, cafe hafuq and and thecoffee, the bagels, your search
for pork, which I just found sofunny, right? But you talk about
(10:33):
the spice Zaatar in the book,and I was wondering maybe if you
could read a little bit of thatsection, because I found it
really powerful. Sure,Zaatar is this spice that's
everywhere. And I knew of it. Iprobably had it before, but when
we got there, we realized thisis just everywhere. And so
there's a whole essay that'sdedicated to Zaatar, but here's
a little passage about what ittastes like in its history.
(10:58):
There's an eto. Eto. Okay, nowlet me start over. There's an
etymological descriptor for thekind of word Zaatar. Zaatar is a
loan word which means exactlywhat you think a word loan,
loaned out from elsewhere andgrown into another language. And
though you don't hear the wordZaatar bandied about in American
(11:21):
kitchens like you do mustard,French, an easy one, or ketchup,
Chinese, or even coleslaw,Dutch. It's a pretty common,
very common loan word in theMiddle East, because it's
everywhere. It's an Arabic wordloaned out to Hebrew, and the
spice mixture is used on prettymuch anything, but it's also a
valued element of a dish, not athrowaway spice sprinkled over
(11:45):
something. For the sake oftradition, I've put it on
chicken and steak and everyroasted vegetable you can think
of, on scrambled, fried and hardboiled eggs, on pizza and salad,
and sometimes in the morning,simply on a piece of toast with
olive oil. And every time ittastes like Zaatar, and
everything tastes more for it.
(12:08):
Whereas when you put salt in adish that needs more salt, and
you taste it, and providedyou've added the right amount of
salt, you'll say better. Butwhen you add Zaatar, you'll say,
there the taste, dark green, alittle bitter, a forest lemon,
an old taste, as in a taste pasttime, a harkening back to some
(12:30):
other place, the earth. There'salso a murkiness in its meaning
and common usage, in that Zaataris both an herb and the spice
mixture. The herb itself,oreganum siriacum, lives
throughout the Middle East andlooks something a little like
lavender, and then it grows onstalks with leaves that same
(12:51):
pale, gray, green, though theyare, broader, bigger, more like
stubby sage than anything else,but Zaatar, the spice mixture
doesn't always contain Zaatarthe herb, sort of like how a
Kleenex is always a tissue, buta tissue isn't always a Kleenex,
yeah, like that. I think. Howabout this? Oftentimes you'll
(13:14):
find in Zaatar the spice mixturedried marjoram and, or oregano
and, or thyme. But know Zaatarthe herb, sometimes there will
be dried lemon or orange zest inthere too, and dill, now and
again, even caraway seeds andcumin. But the real thing is
made simply of Zaatar the herb,those SES those toasted sesame
(13:37):
seeds, ground sumac, with itsgloriously rich burgundy hue, a
little bit of sea salt and adash of olive oil, things get
even more involved the deeperyou dig into that etymology. The
classical Hebrew word for Zaatarin the Bible is ezov, which,
when it was translated into theGreek, became the word hyssop.
(13:59):
And now, in this moment of wordson a page, zaatar's surprise in
my triangular newsprint footballthat's a reference a little bit
earlier dropped into my hands bya boy selling bread suddenly
multiplies in manifold, inmysterious ways, its primary
ingredient and namesake in theherb mixture, the tool for
(14:20):
painting lamb's blood on doorframes the first Passover. It
becomes the means by which oneis cleansed, whether from
leprosy and Leviticus or thedeepest reaches of sin. Cleanse
me with hyssop and I will beclean. Wash me and I will be
whiter than snow. David criesout in Psalm 51 in First Kings,
it becomes an element of thewisdom of Solomon. He spoke 3000
(14:44):
Proverbs, and his songs numbered1005 he spoke about plant life,
from the cedar of Lebanon to thehyssop that grows out of walls.
And the Gospel of John tells usof its role in quenching
Christ's thirst as He hung thereon the cross. The sour wine, one
last moment of earthly reliefbefore his work here is
complete. After this, Jesus,knowing that all was now
(15:08):
finished, said to fulfill thescripture, I thirst a jar full
of sour wine stood there. Sothey put a sponge full of the
sour wine on a hyssop ranch andheld it to his mouth. When Jesus
had received the sour wine, hesaid, It is finished, and he
bowed his head and gave up hisspirit. Somehow, in this
tablespoon full of green andbitter herbs mixed with other
(15:31):
spices and seeds, I am partakingof the history of my faith,
tasting time and place andsalvation. It is a marvelous
flavor. I just found it fun towrite about how just, just
thinking more deeply and deeplyand deeply about what food I was
(15:51):
eating back there, and just theramifications and the, you know,
the rock dropped in a pond andcircles and go out from it was
fun not to just sit there andeat the food, but like, oh,
what's the story of this? Well,we
can all relate. I mean, it's sopowerful, because I think we can
all relate to just theconnection we find in food. I
(16:15):
think anyone you know,regardless of where you're from,
has had an experience where theyhave bonded with someone family
or stranger over food. And Ijust think you're just such
rich. Writing is is justphenomenal. I thank you for
reading that.
Well, you're right. You'reright. Food is what brings us
together. I mean, food iscommunion. Food is sitting with
(16:36):
people and coming to know eachother, whether it's family
you've known your whole life,or, you know, new people. So,
yeah, food is, is such a aninducer of memories and
associations and and importanceto anyway? Sorry, I'm just
rambling.
(16:56):
Oh no, you're, you are good. Sospeaking on memories and kind of
shifting a little bit to toyour, you know, broader writing
career. In a previous interview,you quoted the writer, James
Baldwin, a former teacher ofyours, who said quote, once
you've learned one thing, moveon to the next end quote to
(17:17):
explain your approach to writingin different genres. You've
written both fiction andnonfiction, and are now working
on a science fiction novel. Whatdoes that do to your writing
process? Do you feel like you'restarting all over again when you
move on to the next thing?
Every time, every time it's itfeels like starting over again.
But that's, that's fun, okay,when he told me that I was just
(17:44):
young and I had written a fewshort stories, and I hadn't
written my first novel yet, butwhen I got to the end of my
first novel, I was like, I thinkI know what he means. I'm not
going to write that book again.
There's another one, and it'snot the next book wasn't far,
far afield. It was, it was itwas about some of the same
people, but it was from adistinctly different point of
(18:05):
view and about different things.
And it's really my first bookwas about the Manuel Vermont is
about an RC Cola salesman livesin Western Massachusetts, and
his wife leaves him. I was an RCCola salesman and went to grad
school in Western Massachusetts.
My wife never left me. Thefiction part was, what if my
(18:27):
wife were to leave me, and wherewould that believe me? So that's
that was as close to me that asof any book that I've written.
The next book was from a femalepoint of view at a place where
my wife worked while we were inWestern Mass. So there were some
people who were there, but itwas now from a female point of
(18:47):
view, and it was trying tofigure out, what does the world
look like from her point ofview, and but So my life has
gone. Each book has gone fartherafield, science fiction, exactly
the science fiction book is.
It's, it's the farthest to feelthat you could be science
(19:11):
fiction. It's still about, I'mstill writing about family. I'm
still writing about a husbandand wife, because in science
fiction, they'll still behusbands and wives. You know,
it's about the concerns betweenthem and their child and and,
but also this sense of what ishistory, and being able to visit
and understand history. But itis. It's been a great piece of
(19:35):
advice, I would say, sort of,you know, foundational piece of
advice that I received from Mr.
Baldwin all those years ago,because it's allowed me to,
like, start over every time Ievery semester, I use a book
called A Giacometti portrait,which is by James Lord, and it's
about James Lord was an artcritic and writer back in 1965
he sat for Giacometti for 18days to do a painting. Mm. And
(19:58):
what he did is he just wrotedown everything to Jocko, and he
said, Who this time was at thepinnacle of his career as an
artist. And he just kept saying,you know, I don't know what I'm
doing. I don't know how to dothis. And what, what he had to
do was to begin again everytime, and not rely on the
successes that he's had before,because relying on prior
(20:20):
successes makes you notencounter this news like, oh
yeah, I got this in the bag.
I've done this before every timeyou go at it. And this was the
real value of that advice, was,every time you go to make
something, you need to make abrand new thing and not just
repeat the thing that youalready know how to do. So
that's what Giacometti says allthe time that, you know, I don't
(20:44):
know anything. I have toremember what I was like when I
was 18 and doing my firstpainting every time he says
about it. So I feel like I'm apunk kid every time for every
book this one gather thehollows. It was I really had to
think about. Now, I've neverreally written about food. What
is food? How do you write aboutfood? You put it in your mouth,
you chew. It tastes good. Thistastes good. You know, there's
(21:07):
more to it.
I think you got a little betterat it than that, but I hope
so. I hope so you're generousand you're very patient through
all those hours that werecorded. Wow,
it was, it was a blast. But, Imean, I think that's just
fantastic advice. In myextremely limited writing
experience in college, when Iwas here I am, I took three
(21:29):
semesters of fiction, and everytime I was what the hell was I
thinking then, you know, eachsemester was an was a fresh me.
So, success, yeah. So it's oneof some of my favorite classes
here at the college. So speakingof your illustrious, long
teaching career, sadly for allof us, you're retiring this
(21:52):
spring after teaching at thecollege for almost four decades.
What are you going to do withall your free time?
That's what my wife asks me. Hesays, You better have a plan.
And I'm not sure what the planis. It'll be to write. We love
to travel, and so we'll betraveling more.
(22:12):
And where are you going to betraveling? You think, anywhere?
Fun.
Oh yeah, we're going to Italy.
Italy, beautiful. We areroutinely going there, but we
also, we also want to go anyway,Scotland. We we want to go to we
want to go to Croatia. Have notbeen to Croatia, but Croatia is
supposed to be beautiful. AndSlovenia, so that's kind of in
(22:32):
the dark end. Fantastic. Yeah,so in writing and mowing my
lawn. I have an area.
Well, so um, what will you Iwill you be missing students?
What will you be missing aboutkind of your time teaching?
Somebody asked me that the otherday, and they said, What do you?
(22:55):
What did you? What are you gonnamiss most? And I said, I'm gonna
miss most being actually in theclassroom talking with students,
that's what I'm going to missmost. You know, I majority of my
my time is spent reading thingsand marking them up, and I'm,
I'm happy to do that, but beingwith students and talking with
them in this sometimes the lookon a student's face when they
(23:18):
understand what you're talkingabout and they're seeing the
world in a different in adifferent way because of
something you might have said,but also listening to them and
understanding them is the bestpart. Just being in interaction
with students in a classroom iscoolest thing if I if the job
would only be that, it'd beawesome. You know, that's not
(23:40):
that. It's a bad job, butthere's also some other things
that go into being a professorthat I probably won't miss, but
the college has been verysupportive all through the
years, and last night, I gaveprobably my last reading here at
the college. I read from gatherthe olives and and I not
(24:02):
bragging. I'm not pregnantbragging, but I they gave me a
standing ovation at the end. Andthat was I was like, Wow, this
has never happened in my lifewhere people give me standing
ovation. I think they're feelingsorry for me, the old guys
retiring.
But I'm sure that's it. But Iappreciate it. Oh, very good.
(24:23):
We're kind of running low ontime here, but I would be remiss
if I didn't ask, what are youreading now? Do you have any
book recommendations? Because Igotta pick your brain on what's
good right now. Iam reading right now. Okay, so I
love the television series, slowhorses on apple. Oh,
I have been watching as well,very good.
(24:44):
I'm reading. There's like six ofthese books. The author, I think
his name is Mick or Nick Herron.
And I'm reading the first one,slow horses. And it's, it's,
it's, follows the series. But abook is, you realize reading.
Book. It's like, oh, books areso much better. There's so much
more that you did, so muchdeeper. So I'm reading that
(25:05):
right now, and I'm not goinghigh brown on you, but I'm also
reading at the same timeUlysses. I mean, the Odyssey
about Ulysses. I'm reading thatand just so I'm going like, sort
of the popular classic, both ofthose at the same time. Well,
very good, yeah, not, not atonce.
(25:28):
I don't think they would quitemesh together. It's a small
world, because I have, I gotinto a rabbit hole watching
that, um, that show, yeah. AndI'm not reading those books, but
I am reading the John le Carrespy novels, I am in the middle
of the second of the Tinker,Tailor Soldier Spy trilogy. So
(25:49):
in my car,on Audible, I'm listening to the
honorable schoolboy. Weare on the same book. That's
crazy, people. Wedid not. We did not.
We did not.
I guess I would say I'm about75% I am. I'm in the last, like,
like, I'm mainly listening toit. I'm in the last, like, three
(26:10):
or four hours. So we're probablyon the same chapter.
Five hours left is what I have.
It's like, 22 hours long.
Oh, it's, I love it. There'snothing better than nothing like
a long audioI like, I'm into to the reading
these really good spy novels nowall of a sudden,
(26:31):
well, I'm gonna take your tipsand start reading the slow
horses series. Then, okay, well,Brett, thank you so much for
coming in here having thisconversation. It's been a blast,
and I cannot waitfor you. Thank you. Thank you.
amy stockwell (26:50):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
speaking of College ofCharleston with today's guest,
Brett Lott. If you liked thisepisode, please help us reach
more listeners by sharing itwith a friend or leaving a
review for show notes and moreepisodes. Visit the College of
Charleston's official news site,the college
today@today.charleston.edu, youcan find episodes on all major
(27:16):
podcast platforms. This episodewas produced by Amy Stockwell,
with recording and soundengineering by Jesse Kunz from
the Division of InformationTechnology. You.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com