March 20, 2025 • 40 mins
On this episode of Speaking Of…College of Charleston, we have a great conversation with Joe Kelly, director of Irish and Irish American Studies and Colleen Glenn, director of film studies at the College about Irish books and movies. The colleagues first met playing softball with faculty from the English department and quickly became friends. They put their heads together and took a group of students to Ireland for a study abroad program, traveling from Dublin to Galway.
“When we do those visits, the students follow our discussions of films, like In The Name of the Father and they're really able to see the landscape and the culture that inspired the movie they they saw on the big screen,” says Glenn.
They recount trips around Ireland, emphasizing locations featured in Irish films such as Dublin, Galway, Connemara, and Belfast. Films discussed include The Quiet Man, Michael Collins and Banshees of Inisherin among others, illustrating the socio-political history and cultural identity of Ireland. The episode also touches on significant Irish cinematic movements and celebrates the storytelling legacy and literary richness of Irish culture.
The way Kelly’s describes the landscape, and the novels are a clear indicator of his knowledge and love for the country. He’s an in-demand professor for a reason.
“John Huston did a film version of The Dead, which is a very quiet story,” says Kelly. “And it ends with this beautiful scene where Gabriel Conroy is looking out the window at the snow falling onto the streets of Dublin and he imagines it falling across the mutinous Shannon waves and the bog of Allen and out onto the crooked crosses in the graveyard where Michael Furey lay buried. It's the most beautiful prose I've ever read and it's a absolutely beautiful 10 minutes of cinematography too.”
Featured on this Episode:
Joe Kelly, director of Irish and Irish American Studies at the College of Charleston, has been studying and writing about Irish literature since the 1990s, and in the last fifteen years he’s been writing narrative histories about American democracy. His next book, The Biggest Lie: A Hundred Years of American Fascism, 1818-1918, will be out this time next year.
Colleen Glenn, director of film studies at the College, teaches courses on film history and American Cinema as well as special topics courses on topics like Irish Cinema & Hollywood Auteurs. In addition to co-editing an anthology on stardom, she has published on Frank Sinatra, Jimmy Stewart, and other film stars.
Irish movies mentioned
The Quiet Man (John Ford, 1952)
The Crying Game (Neil Jordan, 1992)
In the Name of the Father (Jim Sheridan, 1993)
Michael Collins (Neil Jordan, 1996).
The Wind That Shakes the Barley (Ken Loach, 2006
’71 (Yann Demange, 2014).
Hunger (Steve McQueen, 2008).
The Field. (Jim Sheridan, 1990)
**Banshees of Inisherin. (writ and dir by Martin McDonagh, 2022)
Philomena (Stephen Frears, 2013)
The Magdalene Sisters (Peter Mullen, 2002)
Small Things Like These (Tim Mielants, 2024) (Claire Keegan wrote the book).
Waking Ned Divine (Kirk Jones, 1998)-
The Commitments (Alan Parker (ENGL), 1991).
Once. Glen Hansard (John Carney, 2007).
My Left Foot (Jim Sheridan, 1989).
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
On this episode of speaking ofcollege of Charleston, we talked
to faculty members, Joe Kelly.
and Colleen Glenn about Irishliterature and film.
Joe Kelly is a director of Irishand Irish American studies at
the college and has beenstudying and writing about Irish
literature since the 1990s.
(00:24):
And in the last 15 years, he'sbeen writing narrative histories
about American democracy.
His next book, The Biggest Lie,100 Years of American Fascism,
1818 to 1918, will be out thistime next year.
Colleen Glenn, Director of FilmStudies at the College, teaches
courses on film history andAmerican cinema, as well as
(00:48):
special topics courses on topicslike Irish cinema and Hollywood
auteurs.
In addition to co editing ananthology on stardom, she has
published on Frank Sinatra,Jimmy Stewart, and other film
stars.
We're so grateful to both ofthem for coming into the studio
today.
to talk to us about Irishliterature and Irish films in
(01:11):
the month of March in honor ofSt.
Patrick's Day.
Let's get started.
Joe, you teach Irish literatureand Colleen, you teach film
studies.
So how did the two of you endup, um, teaching a study abroad
class in Ireland?
I know that was a couple ofyears ago, but, but please tell
us about that experience.
(01:32):
You want me to take that?
Sure.
Colleen?
Uh, well, my version of thestory begins on the softball
field.
Colleen and I, uh, were, wereboth players on a, on a softball
team dominated by Englishdepartment folks, but, uh,
other, other people inhumanities too.
So we've known each other for avery long time since before
there was an Irish studiesprogram.
(01:53):
And, you know, when we put Irishstudies together, what I did is
I cobbled together faculty fromvarious departments who were all
doing Irish things.
But had not been coordinatedtogether in under, you know, one
umbrella.
So when we put it together, wehad somebody in history, we had
somebody in music, uh, we had amedievalist in the English
department, myself, who's amodernist.
(02:16):
Colleen, film studies, uh,anthropologist, someone in
political science, et cetera.
And we just sort of pooled ourforces together.
And I've been taking students toIreland since I think 2004, 2005
maybe was the first time.
And, you know, somewhere in theteens, we decided to try to
expand that program.
yeah, so that, that was awonderful trip.
(02:36):
And that was the first time Iexpanded it beyond two people.
Up to that point, it'd be, ithad been myself and a
medievalist, uh, in the Englishdepartment.
And we tried to start making itlarger.
And it was, it became much morerobust.
We had more, more studentsinvolved.
Different kinds of students.
Where would you go?
Uh, we were based in Dublin, inDrumcondra, which is, uh, you
(02:57):
know, on the north side ofDublin, but pretty close, just
outside the tourist area, Iwould say.
So we were in, we were stayingin dorms from Dublin City
University, DCU, their St.
Patrick's campus.
Um, faculty were staying in allhollows, you know, it's kind of
Hogwarts y, you know, thefacilities.
Um, but we were outside the citycenter.
(03:17):
So the students were having Uh,you know, an experience that was
like they were Dubliners, youknow, when they went to the pub,
it was not filled withAmericans.
They were the only Americansthere.
Um, which is exactly what theywant, right?
That's what you want for a studyabroad program.
And it was, it was far enoughaway to, we're about a mile and
a half from Trinity College, Iguess, if you want, if you know
(03:39):
Dublin, that's kind of in thecenter of the city.
And which meant, It encouragesstudents to take public
transportation, they havewonderful double decker buses in
Dublin.
So they all had metro cardswhere they could use, use on any
of the trains or, or the buses.
So it encourages students to, toreally kind of branch out and,
and, and become Dubliners.
(04:00):
But then, so we're based inDublin and, and there, and not
to go too far away from film,let me bring it back to you.
There's a lot of Irish film setin Dublin and, you know, it's
typical.
European metropolitan copcapital, like half the people in
the country live in Dublin.
Um, but then we went out Westand, and that's, you know,
territory for a lot of filmsthat Colleen was, uh, teaching
(04:25):
are, are set out in the ruralWest.
So Ireland is kind ofinteresting.
It's got that very urbancosmopolitan place, but it's
also got more rural than you canreally imagine you're going to
find in Europe.
I'm here in some remote placessometimes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So just to stay on that for aminute, when you were, went to
the more rural areas, what kindof movies just.
(04:47):
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, we, we took atrip, a week long trip and we
went, um, west to Galway andthen up through Connemara, which
is really the rugged, veryscenic part of Ireland that, you
know, when most of us think ofIreland, we're thinking of those
lush green hills and the, youknow, the, the mountains kind of
rising up from these, uh, lakes.
And.
(05:08):
both, uh, the quiet man, and thefield were, were filmed, in the
West, the quiet man.
We actually took a trip, um, tovisit the town where it was
filmed.
It's a little town called Kong CO N G and County Mayo, which is
just North of Connemara.
It's actually, my family is fromnear that area, Fallon Road.
Yeah.
I think they're from a small,even a smaller place in
(05:28):
Ballinrow, but that's theclosest place on the map.
the field was actually filmed,uh, right in and around Lenan,
which is a beautiful tinyvillage where we stayed both in
2017 and 2018 with our students.
And it's, just a gorgeous,place, the Bantees of
Ennishirin, though it's set in afictional Island is also set,
you know, out West.
(05:48):
So, That movie came out afterour trips, but I just mean, if
you've seen that film and you'llhave an idea of what the West,
uh, part of Ireland looks like.
And then we actually, went upNorth to Belfast and did the
Giant's Causeway and also touredBelfast and had a really
interesting talk with ahistorian about the, the murals
and just the, the conflict, um,between.
(06:10):
Ireland and Northern Ireland,um, and how that's represented
in the, various, monuments andmemorials and murals.
And films.
I mean, a good third of thefilms that you would know, you
know, are all about theTroubles.
And, and Say Nothing.
Patrick Redden Keefe.
That was such a good book.
Yeah.
And so just to give listeners alittle bit of idea, you are
(06:34):
together with your studentsabout the Troubles.
English students, film students.
And, and as you're travelingalong, you're te are you
teaching them about like, thehistory of Irish literature and
um, or are you teaching aboutspecific films and like, this
was filmed here and that wasfilmed there?
how do you make that, thathands-on experience meaningful
(06:56):
for them?
Yeah, I would say, uh.
It's a mix of what you weresaying, the way I teach
literature and my area ofexpertise is the 20th century,
uh, and so I teach literature,especially as it interacts
culturally and politically withIrish society.
So.
In the beginning of the 20thcentury, really beginning in the
(07:18):
1890s, is a movement calledIrish Revival, Irish
Renaissance, Celtic Revival.
It goes by various names.
WB Yeats is one of the morefamous people associated with
it.
But that group, as they were Uh,reestablishing an Irish national
(07:38):
literature.
They were also creating thenation.
And then after Ireland gets itsindependence, its identity is
based on the work, the culturalwork that those folks did.
And that gets translated by thetime we get into the making of
film.
That, that begins to gettranslated.
Into film.
So they all go together.
You know, I think it'd be prettyhard to teach Irish film without
(08:02):
any kind of reference to, youknow, these, these great social
movements that are going on inthe country.
20th century is a very eventfulcentury for the Irish.
Yeah.
I also think it's just apowerful experience to You know,
to visit the sites where some ofthese films are shot,
particularly films that arebased, on, on real facts and
(08:22):
history.
So, you know, if I teach a filmlike Michael Collins and then we
go to the post office on, uh,it's O'Connell street, right.
And you can see the bullet holesin the, in the building.
I mean, it, it makes an impacton students and, uh, you know,
with Kong, it was a little bitmore lighthearted as if we, if
we talk about the quiet man, Ican get into that, but still
it's still, I think, A big kick,you know, to kind of see,
(08:44):
various and see what inspiredJohn Ford, when he made that
film.
And, I would also say it'sparticularly in Belfast.
I think it's, it's powerful, youknow, and these, when we do
those visits, they follow ourdiscussions of films, like in
the name of the father and such.
So they're really able.
kind of seeing, I guess youcould say, uh, the landscape
that, and the culture thatinspired the movie that they saw
(09:05):
on the big screen.
and Joe, you've been teachingstudents about Irish literature
and culture for years.
Um, for listeners who might notbe as well versed in the
subject, why is Irish literatureso celebrated?
And I mean, I've only been thereonce, but to me, it's such a
culture of storytellers.
And when I was there, everywhereI went had these amazing
(09:26):
bookstores that I just, oh,these, all these amazing local
bookstores that were packed withpeople and is that just a myth
or are they truly a culture ofstorytellers?
And then why is it because, why?
Yeah, they're very, it's not amyth at all.
They're very literary.
And your experience ofbookstores, I think, is, is.
(09:48):
not unusual at all.
They love their bookstores.
They're everywhere, you know,um, and they, and they're, you
know, they celebrate theirwriters.
The statues, when you go throughDublin, they're statues of poets
and writers, you know, they're,you have the occasional general
or something like that, butreally it's mostly people, you
know, people who produceculture, who are the, the
celebrated figures.
(10:09):
Um, if you think, Ireland isabout the size of South
Carolina.
Population is about the same asSouth Carolina.
Ireland has had four Nobellaureates in literature.
So it's a place kind of like ourhome, and it's definitely
punching above its weight.
Um, there's a lot of speculationabout why that is.
(10:30):
I think one of the morepersuasive arguments is that
Ireland emerged out of acolonial experience, and when
you are a colonized people, yourrelationship to languages is
very complex, very subtle, so itfosters a cleverness, a, um, you
know, you use a lot of doubleentendres, you speak about
(10:51):
things that are literally notreally what you're talking
about, you know, you're used tocreating a symbolic language,
Because the people who arecalling out, you have, you have
to be talking about thingswithout the people knowing what
you're talking about.
usually you can code switch, youknow, to use a term that comes
out of the, the Americanexperience.
(11:13):
so that's, and, and in additionto that, so that's one thing I
think your relationship tolanguage is.
Very complex and more complex,uh, than somebody who is on the
other end and the English would,who are, who are colonizing
Ireland.
And on top of that, they have alot to talk about because,
because it's a very traumaticexperience.
(11:34):
And I think a lot of art comesout of trauma.
And even if it's not coming outof trauma, you're surrounded by
other people who are usinglanguage in this wonderful way,
this, this innovative, artisticway.
And that becomes the milieu thatyou grow up in.
So even if you're notexperiencing trauma yourself,
you've, you've grown up in aplace where it's normal to have
(11:56):
five bookstores in the town of3000 people, you know.
And don't you think the, the,this just popped into my head,
so I could be totally wrong, butthe landscape too, like it's the
size of South Carolina, butit's, it's surrounded by these
massive.
Cliffs and cold, you know, wildoceans and so, and weather is
(12:17):
not great for a lot of the year.
So you're, I would imagine thatthat has a little something to
do with.
Yeah.
I think I was just thinking oflike pub culture, for example,
of like gathering together inplaces and, you know, and
culture.
Yeah, I thought you said popculture.
Yeah, pop culture.
And I was, I guess I wasthinking of, uh, uh, to Amy's
(12:38):
point about these, um, moremaybe dramatic or even tough.
Conditions, but this is true inurban areas too, but where
people gather together and tellstories and, and preserve
culture through, uh, throughstories and music, um, poetry.
what's a movie that is a goodexample of that.
Oh, there's so many.
(12:58):
Of that pub, pub culture.
Oh, the, the, the Inashirin.
Actually, the Banshees ofInashirin.
Yeah.
I mean, that takes place halfthe movies in a pub, right?
Yeah.
And just the one pub, you know,that you would go to.
And in fact, and we've been toLenan a couple of times and
there's, this is kind of a onehorse town.
There's one pub and that would,would be the center of, of
nightlife, so to speak, if youcan call it that.
You know, you go and get yourpint and.
(13:19):
And people are singing andtelling stories in their songs.
There's, there's a line in JamesJoyce's Ulysses.
The, the unfilmable.
novel of the 20th century, whichhas been filmed twice, but it
was very good.
Um, that, characters thinkinghis own head.
Oh, wonder, wonderful puzzle,uh, cross Dublin without passing
a pub, you know, this, this,this is like, you know, doing,
(13:39):
doing your wordle or somethinglike that, you know, you figure
it out.
Uh, so even in, in.
These films that are, that arein the city, the Barrytown
Trilogy, the Roddy Doyle films,The Commitments, The Snapper,
The Van, the pub is central tosociety, you know, and you're
(14:01):
going to see, I think it'd be apuzzle to, to go through this,
our list of movies and find onethat doesn't have a pub in it.
We should look and and we forlisteners to what will include a
list in the show notes of of allof the pubs and maybe they can
create a puzzle and send it into us like I found a route I
(14:21):
wrote a paper once on did you onpubs on I was.
fascinated by traveling around,you know, and going to
conferences in, in Europe thatthere's, there's James Joyce
pubs in many different cities.
And so I did a, I did a paper onJames Joyce pubs versus William
Butler Yates pubs, which is kindof link to that in the show
notes.
I'm sure that's a very gooddredge that out, out of the
(14:43):
bottom of my computer.
Uh, ironically you found out.
the really posh sort of upscale.
You name your pub James JoycePub to try to get a higher
clientele.
Even though Joyce was very muchde classe, while William Butler
Yates was pretty close to thearistocracy.
So it's the reverse of what youwould think, but, but it's
interesting.
then this is, I'm jumping arounda tiny bit here, but, but I'm
(15:06):
interested to know how you gotinto this.
I mean, you said you're IrishAmerican yourself, but when you
were in college, how did youdecide that this was your focus?
It was in college, actually,yeah.
But, I mean, I grew up thetypical Irish American listening
to Clancy Brothers albums.
My folks are from the Bronx.
They grew up in Irishneighborhoods.
But we grew up in the suburbs,so we didn't, that kind of
ethnicity was listening torecords and thinking, Oh, I'm
(15:29):
Irish.
Isn't that cool?
You know, um, but it was in, incollege.
My, my parents gave me, Mysophomore year of college, a
bound set of James Joyce's Hiswork, his fiction in, in kind of
a handsome, you know, old, oldfashioned looking kind of thing.
And I read Dubliners, which ishis collection of 15 short
(15:50):
stories.
And there's a, there is a filmmade from one of those stories.
And it blew me away.
I knew right away, I fell inlove with it.
I thought this is head andshoulders, the best writing I've
ever seen.
It's an opinion I still have.
I wrote my dissertation on JamesJoyce.
The first book I wrote was onJames Joyce.
I teach Joyce.
I've been teaching Joyce for 35years.
Uh, and you're still not sick ofhim.
(16:11):
I'm not sick of him.
I don't, I don't write as muchabout him anymore.
I've gone on to other things,but no, uh, I, I often run a
Ulysses reading group.
And when we opened that firstpage, you know, and we're in the
morning of June 16th, I can, Ican smell the, the sea salt on
the Irish sea coming across thepages.
It's wonderful.
Yeah.
(16:31):
And we.
In Dublin, we go to where thatscene takes place in the, in the
Joyce Tower, south of town.
I don't know if you would agreewith me, Colleen, about this or
not, but, uh, John Huston did afilm version of The Dead, which
is the novella at the end ofthat collection I was talking
about called Dubliners.
Okay.
It's a very quiet story.
I mean, it's a, it's about aChristmas party.
(16:52):
So, I mean, it's festive, butit's not, we're, we're in,
inside the same house, almostthrough the whole thing, then we
go, then we go to a hotel.
And that's, that's basically thewhole thing.
This is not about trauma.
There, there are no IRA membersshooting out in the streets or
anything like that.
It's a very quiet.
Cerebral or, or psychologicalnovel, I should say, or novella,
(17:14):
but it's beautifully filmed,absolutely beautifully filmed.
And unless I'm mistaken, uh, Ithink it was John Houston's last
film.
That sounds right.
Yeah.
And Angelica Houston starred init and the final scene.
Is this revelatory what, whatthe term epiphany as a literary
critical term was invented byJoyce to talk about what he was
(17:36):
doing at the end of the dead.
And it, and it ends with thisbeautiful scene where Gabriel
Conroy is looking out the windowat the snow falling onto the
streets of Dublin and heimagines it falling across.
The mutinous Shannon waves andthe bog of Alan and out onto the
crooked crosses in the graveyardwhere Michael Fury lay buried.
(17:58):
It's the most beautiful proseI've ever read and it's a
absolutely beautiful 10 minutesof cinematography too.
Painting a wonderful picturejust by describing it, um, just
to continue on that theme offilms.
Colleen, what would you, as afilm studies professor, what
would you recommend forlisteners to watch other than
(18:20):
we're all going to watch thisone now, um, to, to better
understand the culture?
We've mentioned a few so far,but we're, well, I mean, I
think.
We're really sort of having twoconversations when we talk about
Irish films, so that would, youknow, one would be how Ireland
and how Irish people arerepresented on film, and the
other would be how Irishfilmmakers or Irish writers
(18:40):
portray Ireland, you know, inliterature and film.
And while those are connected,it gets rather complicated to
sort those out.
And sometimes a littlecontested, I guess.
Yes, yeah.
And the Irish sometimes rebelagainst how they're Represented
in American.
I can imagine for sure.
And actually, I'm just to jumpoff to piggyback off of that
comment.
And we mentioned the quiet manearlier.
(19:00):
And while I don't want to spendtoo much time on that film, I do
think it kind of makes sense tostart there.
You know, It's probably the mostfamous film about Ireland to
this day, released in 1952.
It starred John Wayne andMaureen O'Hara.
And It's really the reversal ofthe typical Irish immigrant
story.
It's set in the 1920s.
And you have the American comingback to Ireland, you know,
(19:22):
seeking a better life and hisancestral home, the place where
he grew up as a boy.
And, it's very much, idealizedversion of, of Ireland, you
know, it's full of humor andcharm, but it's also full of
stereotypes.
So it's very, you know,problematic in that way.
Okay.
Um, but I think for asproblematic as it is, I think it
(19:44):
tells us a lot about howAmericans view Ireland.
Uh, at the very least, it tellsus a lot about how John Ford
viewed Ireland.
And so in that sense, it'sreally a kind of love letter to
Ireland, you know, it's thisnostalgic field.
A memory of a mythical placethat never really existed.
Um, but I do think the movieholds a special place in some
Irish American's hearts becauseI think it, it does, I think
(20:08):
powerfully represent a, like ahomesickness for a place our
great grandparents or greatgreat grandparents lived in and
left.
Um, so I think that's kind of agood starting point.
You know, by contrast, I thinkthere's kind of a bit of a leg
before you start to see Irishfilmmakers, not Irish writers,
but Irish filmmakers reallystart producing films, you know,
about Ireland or set in Ireland.
(20:30):
Um, but we, we have a wholebunch of those particularly
coming out in the nineties.
Um, so when you have like Irishscreenwriters and filmmakers
representing Ireland, it's in adifferent way.
And I would say it's You know,depicting a much more realistic
view of Ireland, kind ofspeaking back against that
mythical view of Ireland, oftendepicted in American popular
culture.
there's a whole grouping ofthese films that I would say are
(20:52):
historical and political, right?
Films like, The Crying Game, Inthe Name of the Father, Michael
Collins, The Cillian Murphy, forthose who know him.
71, Hunger, The Field, Bansheesof Innishirin.
There are more, but a lot ofthese films deal with either the
Irish War of Independence or thesubsequent Irish Civil War or
(21:16):
the Troubles coming later in the20th century.
Of all of those, if I had todirect viewers, you know, to one
of those, I would probablyrecommend in the name of the
father, It's an extremelypowerful film directed by Jim
Sheridan, um, came out, I wantto say in 1993 and it, stars.
Daniel Day Lewis as he playsJerry Conlin, who was in real
(21:41):
life, falsely accused of beingan IRA terrorist.
He was kind of wrong place,wrong time.
And he was in prison for many,many years along with his dad,
along with his dad and hisfather died in prison.
Oh, wow.
But it's, you know, Daniel DayLewis.
So it's just a tremendousperformance.
Um, and Yeah, it's, it's hardnot to get emotional talking
about the film because it's sopowerful.
(22:02):
The, the Irish imagine their,uh, civil rights movement that
began in the late 1960s, out ofwhich a lot of these films come,
I think they're commenting onthat struggle.
Which, which ends up becomingviolent and becoming the
troubles very quickly, but theyimagined this struggle in, in
the terms of the American civilrights movement and the early
(22:23):
marches they were singing.
We shall overcome, uh, which iswonderful to hear an Irish
accents.
Uh, they were inspired by MLK.
Uh, it was a nonviolent movementwhen it began and it was.
A movement that was demandingequal rights within the British
Empire.
So Northern Ireland, orlisteners who might not realize
(22:44):
this, uh, six counties inNorthern Ireland are still
attached to, to the UK.
Still to this day.
So, so the UK is actually fournations, England, Wales,
Scotland, and Northern Ireland.
Uh, and the 26 southern countiesof the Republic of Ireland,
which is a, um, you know, anindependent So those six
counties, the Catholicpopulation in those six counties
(23:07):
were second class citizens, andthey looked at their position as
analogous to black Americanshere in the United States and
took their inspiration from thatmovement.
what happened in Ireland thatdidn't happen here was that in
the face of the violence withwhich these, Nonviolent
protesters, uh, you know, whenthey met that violence, the IRA
(23:27):
revived itself and then became,you know, fashioned themselves
as the defenders of theCatholic, um, And were quite
violent, right?
At that point.
Yeah, I mean, there were, therewere terrorists and they, and,
and there were Protestantterrorist groups and the IRA was
a secret terrorist group that,that TV show that we just
referenced, Say Nothing, uh,based on the book, Say Nothing,
which is based on oral historiesthat were collected at Boston
(23:49):
College.
Uh, Bloody Sunday is about theevent that happened in, in 19th,
January of 1972.
It was, it was a peacefulprotest against the practice of
internment where the Britishwould just break into your house
and they would arrest the menand take them off to prison
camps.
And you, you had no right tostand before, uh, a judge.
(24:10):
Habeas corpus had beensuspended.
So it was a protest againstthis, uh, this practice.
And British army troops openedfire.
And so if you've heard the termBloody Sunday, it's probably
referring to that event.
And U2's song is referring toit.
But there's also, Colleenmentioned the film Michael
Collins, which came out in 1996.
(24:32):
Depicts the original BloodySunday, which was during the
original War of Independenceback in 1918 through 1921.
So, the Bloody Sunday in 1972was actually It was called
Bloody Sunday in reference tothe War of Independence.
Wow.
So it's not a surprise that thatfilm about the War of
(24:53):
Independence came out in the midnineties as people are debating,
you know, what is going to endup becoming the Good Friday
Agreement.
Shall we lay down our arms?
Should we?
Stop fighting and take the gunout of Irish politics, as the
phrase goes.
So a lot of these films, and Ithink this is Colleen, why the
1990s is such, I mean, it's agolden age of films made by
(25:18):
Irish folks.
but I think probably, and, andI'll have to defer to Colleen on
this, but I think by that time,now you've got a generation of
people who have been involved inthe film industry in the United
States and, or, or in England.
Some of the directors of thesefilms are actually Englishmen.
That's right.
Um, but now you, you've got abody of people Who are
(25:39):
professionals in the filmindustry, so they can start
making their own stuff, um,telling their own stories.
And so you get, um, Jim Sheridanis all over Irish film.
Some of the films I mentioned,several were directed by him.
He also directed My Left Foot.
Um, yes.
So you might recognize his namefrom that, but Neil Jordan
directs The Crying Game.
Were they both, those twodirectors, are they both Irish
(26:00):
or Jim Sheridan is Irish.
Yeah, Neil Jordan is too.
Neil Jordan's Irish.
In any case, yeah, I think Joe'spoint, we have this generation
of Irish filmmakers who've Whoare sort of kind of come into
their own and, come onto theworld kind of stage in the, in
the 80s and 90s.
Neil Jordan is part of acultural movement that's called
Ireland's Field Day.
Uh, Seamus Heaney, who was oneof those Nobel prize winners,
(26:23):
the poet, he was a member ofField Day.
Um, and what, what that groupdid is, um, they kind of modeled
themselves after that movement.
Celtic revival that I mentionedat the beginning of the 20th
century that helped create theIrish nation.
In a way, what Ireland's fieldday had to do was sort of
uncreate the image of Ireland.
(26:43):
That had been bequeathed to themby the, by the revival.
Uh, so they, they really imaginethemselves as, as working
collaboratively.
Poets, literary critics,playwrights.
Brian Friel is a playwrightthat's associated with it.
And the actor Stephen Ray is themost famous actor that comes out
of it.
And he's, he's in MichaelCollins.
(27:05):
He's in The Crying Game.
Uh, he is a character.
And say nothing because hemarries Dolores Price, the IRA
woman.
they do you think that theystill I'm just thinking about
the differences between here andthere.
Do you do you think they, Dosomething unique to encourage,
like to keep the next generationjust thinking about college
(27:28):
students, like continuing tohave faith that these are
valuable fields of study, youknow, like we're here in the
United States, we don't need toget into it, but humanities are
taking a hit.
I think we can go ahead and sayout loud that humanities are
under attack.
Yeah.
But I wonder with such a richculture of film and literature
(27:52):
and music.
If it's, if they're doingsomething different, and to
continue the next generation andgetting involved in telling
these stories.
Yeah, the government is involvedand they, they have, and I think
it's called the Irish FilmInstitute.
The Irish Film Institute isright, yeah.
Uh, and so they have money that,you know, can concede projects.
They definitely, they're,they're very conscious about
(28:14):
trying to make sure that theyhave a new generation of
filmmakers coming up.
I mean, just in general, theIrish are very invested in their
arts and in protecting theirarts.
We could learn something fromthem.
We, we, we absolutely could.
Yeah.
That's what you, that's exactlywhat you guys are doing.
So, um, Colleen, we've talked alot about films telling the kind
(28:36):
of male story in Ireland.
Are there any that you wouldmention that That tell the
female side of things for sure.
And I think there's been a fewreally important films that have
come out that some of you mayknow, um, that deal with the
Magdalene laundries.
These were, uh, convents thatyoung unmarried women who became
(28:59):
pregnant were sent to.
And this practice went on for avery long time.
Um, and so films like theMagdalene sisters, Um,
Philomena, which was a verypopular film and featured Judi
Dench.
If you remember that movie thatcame out in 2013.
And recently a film was releasedon the same topic called small
things like these based on thebook by Claire key.
(29:20):
That's correct.
Yeah.
And I haven't seen it yet, butagain, starting the popular
killing and it's hard to watchin all of those films, to be
honest, are hard to watch.
Philomena is by far the one thathas the most, comedy in it.
But even that is.
And this was young pregnantwomen who were taken into the
nunnery.
Not necessarily even pregnant.
Oh.
They might just.
(29:40):
Be, you know, hard to handle.
I'm sorry.
Yes, that's correct.
Sometimes just difficult women,right?
So women deemed difficult bytheir families.
This, went on from like the1750s through 1960s.
Um, the last one closed in thenineties.
Okay.
There you go.
No, I don't, I don't thinkpeople were still 1990s, but
(30:00):
these were essentially like workhouses, um, abused and where
women were kept, um, againsttheir will.
If they escape, the police wouldbring them back.
I mean, they were, they were defacto prisons.
So this is, you know, a darkchapter of Irish, uh, history.
And it wasn't just Ireland whohad these, convent homes, by the
(30:20):
way.
Other countries in Europe did aswell and other places, I think.
Um, but, but I mean, it'sdefinitely one of the dark
chapters of Irish history that Ithink is finally getting more
attention.
but we also have some lighthearted films that you talk
about.
Everything's not shown.
Some happy things in our own.
Yeah, there's actually a lot ofreally funny, um, movies.
Yeah, I think that BarrytownTrilogy is The Roddy Doyle The
(30:42):
Roddy Doyle, uh, films beginningwith The Commitments.
Which is just a really fun filmto watch.
If anybody has not seen TheCommitments, go watch it
tonight.
I love that movie.
Such a great movie.
So, the accents, I mean, thecharacters, it's all about music
and uh, uh.
And talk about an answer to likethe, you know, the more kind of
(31:04):
mythical view of the PastoralIreland Island that we think of.
This is, you know, it's urban,it's the working class Dublin,
uh, and it's, you know, justvery gritty.
Um, and again, they're, they'remodeling themselves after black
America, you know, that's,that's where they're taking
their inspiration.
That's right.
Yeah.
And it's young, like high schoolkids forming a band and they're
(31:25):
all incredibly talented.
And for this.
Brief period, they create thisamazing music together until it
falls apart.
Right.
They, they start feuding.
Right.
As they're on the brink ofsuccess.
Right.
That's right.
Right.
Wait a minute.
Wait.
We just, did we spoil the movie?
No, no, no.
One of my favorite scenes ofthat movie is when they do the
tryouts.
Do you remember?
(31:45):
Yes.
Door after door.
They're all horrible.
They just.
Shut the door.
Yeah.
One guy lines up and he thinks,uh, he's like, he has no
instrument and he's like, whatare you doing?
And he goes, I saw a line.
I thought everyone was buyingdrugs.
Such a good movie.
And romance.
There's some romance movies andbooks and plenty of romantic
(32:05):
novels, but for sure.
Well, we, I think we mentionedBrooklyn earlier.
I don't know.
I thought it was a really goodfilm.
Based on the novel by, um, ColmToybien.
Colm Toybien.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's an immigrant story, butit's unusual because it's, About
immigration in the 1950s, andthere were very few Irish coming
to the United States relative toNumbers that they came in before
(32:28):
which is one of the reasons whythat the quiet man is so
interesting is that's the 1950sby the time that gets made Most
Irish Americans are two threefour generations removed from
the old country, which is whyyou have this mythical Edenic
version of it But it'sinteresting to see that film
next to, to Brooklyn, seesomeone coming over in the 1950s
(32:51):
and her experience of America.
And it's, you know, it's a, it'sa powerful film.
I think it's a, it is abouthomesickness and heartbreak and
also in a way, kind of about howyou can't really go home again,
no matter where home is,there's.
Which that's such a universaltheme of, of home and what is
home life and can you go homeagain?
You can't go back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's told in so manydifferent genres.
(33:13):
I thought we started talkingabout, I know lighthearted
movies we're, we're back to, tocrying our eyes out.
I always bring it back to the,well, once they're good at
sadness, they're good atmelancholy, that's for sure.
Um, we're getting close to time,but I want to make sure we had a
couple more questions.
Joe, you had mentioned beforetwo films that were, are
particularly noteworthy.
(33:34):
and maybe mention them and whythey're significant for people
who are interested in this.
Yeah.
I will very briefly.
The first one is, uh, man ofAaron, Yeah.
It's set on the Aaron Islandsout in the West.
you know, the, the far West ofthe West coast of Ireland, uh,
next stop, New York kind ofplace.
And these are barren, rocky,very difficult living islands.
(33:57):
And for the Irish symbolically,these are really important.
This is like the Iowa or theNebraska.
When you think of what is theheart of Irish culture, the, uh,
the Irish want to get as faraway from England as possible.
So they, the Aran Islandsymbolically are the place with
the least amount ofAnglicization.
So the.
didn't need to do a lot of deanglicizing to become Irish.
(34:20):
Uh, so, uh, an Americanfilmmaker, Robert Flaherty,
who's the father or maybegrandfather of documentary film,
um, Ken Burns, you know, isdescended from, from Robert
Flaherty.
He went out there for a coupleof years and filmed these people
and he put together a narrativeand, and by today's standards.
This is neither anthropology nordocumentary.
(34:41):
It's really very heavy handedwhat he did.
Um, but on the other hand, atthe time, it was taken as an
accurate picture of what lifewas like for these very
subsistence level farmers andfishermen out there in the Aran
Islands.
And it came out in 19.
And talk about remote.
Yes.
Very remote.
Yes.
And it came out in 1934.
(35:02):
And a significant thing aboutit, there's no reference to
England at all.
This is when it came out, theIrish took it as, here is the
genuine, uh, mirror image.
If we look in the mirror, thisis what we want to see.
We wanna see the man of Aaron.
Um, and.
You know, Colleen was talkingabout those Magdalene films.
(35:23):
This is, this is one of theconsequences of getting their
independence.
Ireland got its independence,but it became very much, you
know, what we would callChristian nationalism today.
So the Catholic Church was veryinterwoven.
It was written into theConstitution, um, and very
conservative.
(35:43):
And, uh, the government had aheavy hand in promoting a
certain self image and that selfimage was rural.
It was traditional women'splaces in the home.
It actually says that in theConstitution.
Wow.
You know?
So, the Magdalene, uh,laundries, I think, are, are one
consequence of that too.
(36:04):
Not, I mean, if you watch TheMan of Aaron, there's nothing to
do with Magdalene laundries.
But it's, it's, it's of a piece,that kind of cultural.
Artifact.
Um, so that's one.
And it's a, it's a brilliantfilm too.
I, I would recommend people tosee it.
The other that I wanted tomention was Going My Way, which
is the film that, uh, and thisis, this is, there's a lot of
(36:26):
lighthearted moments in this.
If you, if you want to have somelaughs, watch Going My Way.
1944, it's during World War II,uh, big sort of breakout for
Bing Crosby.
Uh, Leo McCary is the directorand the writer of the story.
Uh, Barry Fitzgerald, who playsa minor, I mean, a supporting
role in The Quiet Man, is, uh,is in the film.
(36:49):
And more than anything else,more than any other film, I
think, Going My Way indicatesthe mainstreaming of Irish
Catholics in American society.
By 1944, You're no longer,there's no longer any harm from
being an Irish Catholic.
There's no penalties.
(37:09):
There's no, no real prejudice.
I mean, there may be in someplaces, you know, you might not
be able to get into some countryclub or something, but, but.
By and large, that film reallymarks the, the Irish Catholics
are now right there in the heartof mainstream America.
Won seven Academy Awards.
Uh, you know, it was pretty muchannounced, We're here.
(37:33):
And again, just to remindpeople, I'll put, I'll find
links to these where people canwatch them.
And I'll put that in the shownotes.
So I'll leave listeners withfour recommendations, two
serious and two, um, maybe morelighthearted, but one I already
mentioned in the name of thefather, which I think is
absolutely a must, uh, must seea film.
(37:54):
I also would recommend 71, whichis a great movie.
That is about a British soldierwho gets separated from his unit
after a riot in Belfast in 1971,which was one of the worst times
for the Troubles.
And he has to survive the nightbehind enemy lines.
And it's, it's a thriller andit's just really, um, terrific.
It just explores the complexityof alliances and the conflicts
(38:16):
at the heart of the Troubles andjust the very confusing how
interwoven, uh, they are.
Um, just a great movie.
But to leave us on a morelighthearted note, one of my
very favorite movies, um, set inIreland is Waking Ned Devine.
Oh, I forgot about that.
So that's, um, 1998 and it'sjust this delightful, you know,
(38:37):
feel good comedy about a smallIrish town who bands together to
claim a winning lottery ticket,from a dead man.
yeah, and then we alreadymentioned this one too, but the
commitments, I think if youhaven't seen it, I would
definitely recommend that.
And I think you mentioned onceearlier, which I absolutely love
people know that film because itwon an Academy Award for the
best original song when it cameout in 2007, featuring Glenn
(39:00):
Hansard, who's also in thecommitments.
He is outspan in thecommitments.
Yeah.
So he's one of the band membersin the commitments.
And then he goes on to greaterfame.
Well, um, thank you guys somuch.
We are so appreciative of youcoming in here and telling us
all these wonderful stories andit just makes me want to book a
(39:20):
ticket and go right back thereand explore more of that
beautiful country.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Speaking of College
of Charleston with today'sguests Colleen Glenn and Joe
Kelly.
If you like this episode, pleasehelp us reach more listeners by
sharing it with a friend orleaving a review.
(39:43):
For show notes and moreepisodes, visit the College of
Charleston's official news site.
The College Today at today.
charleston.
edu.
You can find more episodes onall major podcast platforms.
This episode was produced by AmyStockwell with recording and
sound engineering by Jesse Kunzfrom the Division of Information
(40:07):
Technology.
On this episode of speaking ofcollege of Charleston, we talked
to faculty members, Joe Kelly.
and Colleen Glenn about Irishliterature and film.
Joe Kelly is a director of Irishand Irish American studies at
the college and has beenstudying and writing about Irish
literature since the 1990s.
(00:24):
And in the last 15 years, he'sbeen writing narrative histories
about American democracy.
His next book, The Biggest Lie,100 Years of American Fascism,
1818 to 1918, will be out thistime next year.
Colleen Glenn, Director of FilmStudies at the College, teaches
courses on film history andAmerican cinema, as well as
(00:48):
special topics courses on topicslike Irish cinema and Hollywood
auteurs.
In addition to co editing ananthology on stardom, she has
published on Frank Sinatra,Jimmy Stewart, and other film
stars.
We're so grateful to both ofthem for coming into the studio
today.
to talk to us about Irishliterature and Irish films in
(01:11):
the month of March in honor ofSt.
Patrick's Day.
Let's get started.
Joe, you teach Irish literatureand Colleen, you teach film
studies.
So how did the two of you endup, um, teaching a study abroad
class in Ireland?
I know that was a couple ofyears ago, but, but please tell
us about that experience.
(01:32):
You want me to take that?
Sure.
Colleen?
Uh, well, my version of thestory begins on the softball
field.
Colleen and I, uh, were, wereboth players on a, on a softball
team dominated by Englishdepartment folks, but, uh,
other, other people inhumanities too.
So we've known each other for avery long time since before
there was an Irish studiesprogram.
(01:53):
And, you know, when we put Irishstudies together, what I did is
I cobbled together faculty fromvarious departments who were all
doing Irish things.
But had not been coordinatedtogether in under, you know, one
umbrella.
So when we put it together, wehad somebody in history, we had
somebody in music, uh, we had amedievalist in the English
department, myself, who's amodernist.
(02:16):
Colleen, film studies, uh,anthropologist, someone in
political science, et cetera.
And we just sort of pooled ourforces together.
And I've been taking students toIreland since I think 2004, 2005
maybe was the first time.
And, you know, somewhere in theteens, we decided to try to
expand that program.
yeah, so that, that was awonderful trip.
(02:36):
And that was the first time Iexpanded it beyond two people.
Up to that point, it'd be, ithad been myself and a
medievalist, uh, in the Englishdepartment.
And we tried to start making itlarger.
And it was, it became much morerobust.
We had more, more studentsinvolved.
Different kinds of students.
Where would you go?
Uh, we were based in Dublin, inDrumcondra, which is, uh, you
(02:57):
know, on the north side ofDublin, but pretty close, just
outside the tourist area, Iwould say.
So we were in, we were stayingin dorms from Dublin City
University, DCU, their St.
Patrick's campus.
Um, faculty were staying in allhollows, you know, it's kind of
Hogwarts y, you know, thefacilities.
Um, but we were outside the citycenter.
(03:17):
So the students were having Uh,you know, an experience that was
like they were Dubliners, youknow, when they went to the pub,
it was not filled withAmericans.
They were the only Americansthere.
Um, which is exactly what theywant, right?
That's what you want for a studyabroad program.
And it was, it was far enoughaway to, we're about a mile and
a half from Trinity College, Iguess, if you want, if you know
(03:39):
Dublin, that's kind of in thecenter of the city.
And which meant, It encouragesstudents to take public
transportation, they havewonderful double decker buses in
Dublin.
So they all had metro cardswhere they could use, use on any
of the trains or, or the buses.
So it encourages students to, toreally kind of branch out and,
and, and become Dubliners.
(04:00):
But then, so we're based inDublin and, and there, and not
to go too far away from film,let me bring it back to you.
There's a lot of Irish film setin Dublin and, you know, it's
typical.
European metropolitan copcapital, like half the people in
the country live in Dublin.
Um, but then we went out Westand, and that's, you know,
territory for a lot of filmsthat Colleen was, uh, teaching
(04:25):
are, are set out in the ruralWest.
So Ireland is kind ofinteresting.
It's got that very urbancosmopolitan place, but it's
also got more rural than you canreally imagine you're going to
find in Europe.
I'm here in some remote placessometimes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So just to stay on that for aminute, when you were, went to
the more rural areas, what kindof movies just.
(04:47):
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, we, we took atrip, a week long trip and we
went, um, west to Galway andthen up through Connemara, which
is really the rugged, veryscenic part of Ireland that, you
know, when most of us think ofIreland, we're thinking of those
lush green hills and the, youknow, the, the mountains kind of
rising up from these, uh, lakes.
And.
(05:08):
both, uh, the quiet man, and thefield were, were filmed, in the
West, the quiet man.
We actually took a trip, um, tovisit the town where it was
filmed.
It's a little town called Kong CO N G and County Mayo, which is
just North of Connemara.
It's actually, my family is fromnear that area, Fallon Road.
Yeah.
I think they're from a small,even a smaller place in
(05:28):
Ballinrow, but that's theclosest place on the map.
the field was actually filmed,uh, right in and around Lenan,
which is a beautiful tinyvillage where we stayed both in
2017 and 2018 with our students.
And it's, just a gorgeous,place, the Bantees of
Ennishirin, though it's set in afictional Island is also set,
you know, out West.
(05:48):
So, That movie came out afterour trips, but I just mean, if
you've seen that film and you'llhave an idea of what the West,
uh, part of Ireland looks like.
And then we actually, went upNorth to Belfast and did the
Giant's Causeway and also touredBelfast and had a really
interesting talk with ahistorian about the, the murals
and just the, the conflict, um,between.
(06:10):
Ireland and Northern Ireland,um, and how that's represented
in the, various, monuments andmemorials and murals.
And films.
I mean, a good third of thefilms that you would know, you
know, are all about theTroubles.
And, and Say Nothing.
Patrick Redden Keefe.
That was such a good book.
Yeah.
And so just to give listeners alittle bit of idea, you are
(06:34):
together with your studentsabout the Troubles.
English students, film students.
And, and as you're travelingalong, you're te are you
teaching them about like, thehistory of Irish literature and
um, or are you teaching aboutspecific films and like, this
was filmed here and that wasfilmed there?
how do you make that, thathands-on experience meaningful
(06:56):
for them?
Yeah, I would say, uh.
It's a mix of what you weresaying, the way I teach
literature and my area ofexpertise is the 20th century,
uh, and so I teach literature,especially as it interacts
culturally and politically withIrish society.
So.
In the beginning of the 20thcentury, really beginning in the
(07:18):
1890s, is a movement calledIrish Revival, Irish
Renaissance, Celtic Revival.
It goes by various names.
WB Yeats is one of the morefamous people associated with
it.
But that group, as they were Uh,reestablishing an Irish national
(07:38):
literature.
They were also creating thenation.
And then after Ireland gets itsindependence, its identity is
based on the work, the culturalwork that those folks did.
And that gets translated by thetime we get into the making of
film.
That, that begins to gettranslated.
Into film.
So they all go together.
You know, I think it'd be prettyhard to teach Irish film without
(08:02):
any kind of reference to, youknow, these, these great social
movements that are going on inthe country.
20th century is a very eventfulcentury for the Irish.
Yeah.
I also think it's just apowerful experience to You know,
to visit the sites where some ofthese films are shot,
particularly films that arebased, on, on real facts and
(08:22):
history.
So, you know, if I teach a filmlike Michael Collins and then we
go to the post office on, uh,it's O'Connell street, right.
And you can see the bullet holesin the, in the building.
I mean, it, it makes an impacton students and, uh, you know,
with Kong, it was a little bitmore lighthearted as if we, if
we talk about the quiet man, Ican get into that, but still
it's still, I think, A big kick,you know, to kind of see,
(08:44):
various and see what inspiredJohn Ford, when he made that
film.
And, I would also say it'sparticularly in Belfast.
I think it's, it's powerful, youknow, and these, when we do
those visits, they follow ourdiscussions of films, like in
the name of the father and such.
So they're really able.
kind of seeing, I guess youcould say, uh, the landscape
that, and the culture thatinspired the movie that they saw
(09:05):
on the big screen.
and Joe, you've been teachingstudents about Irish literature
and culture for years.
Um, for listeners who might notbe as well versed in the
subject, why is Irish literatureso celebrated?
And I mean, I've only been thereonce, but to me, it's such a
culture of storytellers.
And when I was there, everywhereI went had these amazing
(09:26):
bookstores that I just, oh,these, all these amazing local
bookstores that were packed withpeople and is that just a myth
or are they truly a culture ofstorytellers?
And then why is it because, why?
Yeah, they're very, it's not amyth at all.
They're very literary.
And your experience ofbookstores, I think, is, is.
(09:48):
not unusual at all.
They love their bookstores.
They're everywhere, you know,um, and they, and they're, you
know, they celebrate theirwriters.
The statues, when you go throughDublin, they're statues of poets
and writers, you know, they're,you have the occasional general
or something like that, butreally it's mostly people, you
know, people who produceculture, who are the, the
celebrated figures.
(10:09):
Um, if you think, Ireland isabout the size of South
Carolina.
Population is about the same asSouth Carolina.
Ireland has had four Nobellaureates in literature.
So it's a place kind of like ourhome, and it's definitely
punching above its weight.
Um, there's a lot of speculationabout why that is.
(10:30):
I think one of the morepersuasive arguments is that
Ireland emerged out of acolonial experience, and when
you are a colonized people, yourrelationship to languages is
very complex, very subtle, so itfosters a cleverness, a, um, you
know, you use a lot of doubleentendres, you speak about
(10:51):
things that are literally notreally what you're talking
about, you know, you're used tocreating a symbolic language,
Because the people who arecalling out, you have, you have
to be talking about thingswithout the people knowing what
you're talking about.
usually you can code switch, youknow, to use a term that comes
out of the, the Americanexperience.
(11:13):
so that's, and, and in additionto that, so that's one thing I
think your relationship tolanguage is.
Very complex and more complex,uh, than somebody who is on the
other end and the English would,who are, who are colonizing
Ireland.
And on top of that, they have alot to talk about because,
because it's a very traumaticexperience.
(11:34):
And I think a lot of art comesout of trauma.
And even if it's not coming outof trauma, you're surrounded by
other people who are usinglanguage in this wonderful way,
this, this innovative, artisticway.
And that becomes the milieu thatyou grow up in.
So even if you're notexperiencing trauma yourself,
you've, you've grown up in aplace where it's normal to have
(11:56):
five bookstores in the town of3000 people, you know.
And don't you think the, the,this just popped into my head,
so I could be totally wrong, butthe landscape too, like it's the
size of South Carolina, butit's, it's surrounded by these
massive.
Cliffs and cold, you know, wildoceans and so, and weather is
(12:17):
not great for a lot of the year.
So you're, I would imagine thatthat has a little something to
do with.
Yeah.
I think I was just thinking oflike pub culture, for example,
of like gathering together inplaces and, you know, and
culture.
Yeah, I thought you said popculture.
Yeah, pop culture.
And I was, I guess I wasthinking of, uh, uh, to Amy's
(12:38):
point about these, um, moremaybe dramatic or even tough.
Conditions, but this is true inurban areas too, but where
people gather together and tellstories and, and preserve
culture through, uh, throughstories and music, um, poetry.
what's a movie that is a goodexample of that.
Oh, there's so many.
(12:58):
Of that pub, pub culture.
Oh, the, the, the Inashirin.
Actually, the Banshees ofInashirin.
Yeah.
I mean, that takes place halfthe movies in a pub, right?
Yeah.
And just the one pub, you know,that you would go to.
And in fact, and we've been toLenan a couple of times and
there's, this is kind of a onehorse town.
There's one pub and that would,would be the center of, of
nightlife, so to speak, if youcan call it that.
You know, you go and get yourpint and.
(13:19):
And people are singing andtelling stories in their songs.
There's, there's a line in JamesJoyce's Ulysses.
The, the unfilmable.
novel of the 20th century, whichhas been filmed twice, but it
was very good.
Um, that, characters thinkinghis own head.
Oh, wonder, wonderful puzzle,uh, cross Dublin without passing
a pub, you know, this, this,this is like, you know, doing,
(13:39):
doing your wordle or somethinglike that, you know, you figure
it out.
Uh, so even in, in.
These films that are, that arein the city, the Barrytown
Trilogy, the Roddy Doyle films,The Commitments, The Snapper,
The Van, the pub is central tosociety, you know, and you're
(14:01):
going to see, I think it'd be apuzzle to, to go through this,
our list of movies and find onethat doesn't have a pub in it.
We should look and and we forlisteners to what will include a
list in the show notes of of allof the pubs and maybe they can
create a puzzle and send it into us like I found a route I
(14:21):
wrote a paper once on did you onpubs on I was.
fascinated by traveling around,you know, and going to
conferences in, in Europe thatthere's, there's James Joyce
pubs in many different cities.
And so I did a, I did a paper onJames Joyce pubs versus William
Butler Yates pubs, which is kindof link to that in the show
notes.
I'm sure that's a very gooddredge that out, out of the
(14:43):
bottom of my computer.
Uh, ironically you found out.
the really posh sort of upscale.
You name your pub James JoycePub to try to get a higher
clientele.
Even though Joyce was very muchde classe, while William Butler
Yates was pretty close to thearistocracy.
So it's the reverse of what youwould think, but, but it's
interesting.
then this is, I'm jumping arounda tiny bit here, but, but I'm
(15:06):
interested to know how you gotinto this.
I mean, you said you're IrishAmerican yourself, but when you
were in college, how did youdecide that this was your focus?
It was in college, actually,yeah.
But, I mean, I grew up thetypical Irish American listening
to Clancy Brothers albums.
My folks are from the Bronx.
They grew up in Irishneighborhoods.
But we grew up in the suburbs,so we didn't, that kind of
ethnicity was listening torecords and thinking, Oh, I'm
(15:29):
Irish.
Isn't that cool?
You know, um, but it was in, incollege.
My, my parents gave me, Mysophomore year of college, a
bound set of James Joyce's Hiswork, his fiction in, in kind of
a handsome, you know, old, oldfashioned looking kind of thing.
And I read Dubliners, which ishis collection of 15 short
(15:50):
stories.
And there's a, there is a filmmade from one of those stories.
And it blew me away.
I knew right away, I fell inlove with it.
I thought this is head andshoulders, the best writing I've
ever seen.
It's an opinion I still have.
I wrote my dissertation on JamesJoyce.
The first book I wrote was onJames Joyce.
I teach Joyce.
I've been teaching Joyce for 35years.
Uh, and you're still not sick ofhim.
(16:11):
I'm not sick of him.
I don't, I don't write as muchabout him anymore.
I've gone on to other things,but no, uh, I, I often run a
Ulysses reading group.
And when we opened that firstpage, you know, and we're in the
morning of June 16th, I can, Ican smell the, the sea salt on
the Irish sea coming across thepages.
It's wonderful.
Yeah.
(16:31):
And we.
In Dublin, we go to where thatscene takes place in the, in the
Joyce Tower, south of town.
I don't know if you would agreewith me, Colleen, about this or
not, but, uh, John Huston did afilm version of The Dead, which
is the novella at the end ofthat collection I was talking
about called Dubliners.
Okay.
It's a very quiet story.
I mean, it's a, it's about aChristmas party.
(16:52):
So, I mean, it's festive, butit's not, we're, we're in,
inside the same house, almostthrough the whole thing, then we
go, then we go to a hotel.
And that's, that's basically thewhole thing.
This is not about trauma.
There, there are no IRA membersshooting out in the streets or
anything like that.
It's a very quiet.
Cerebral or, or psychologicalnovel, I should say, or novella,
(17:14):
but it's beautifully filmed,absolutely beautifully filmed.
And unless I'm mistaken, uh, Ithink it was John Houston's last
film.
That sounds right.
Yeah.
And Angelica Houston starred init and the final scene.
Is this revelatory what, whatthe term epiphany as a literary
critical term was invented byJoyce to talk about what he was
(17:36):
doing at the end of the dead.
And it, and it ends with thisbeautiful scene where Gabriel
Conroy is looking out the windowat the snow falling onto the
streets of Dublin and heimagines it falling across.
The mutinous Shannon waves andthe bog of Alan and out onto the
crooked crosses in the graveyardwhere Michael Fury lay buried.
(17:58):
It's the most beautiful proseI've ever read and it's a
absolutely beautiful 10 minutesof cinematography too.
Painting a wonderful picturejust by describing it, um, just
to continue on that theme offilms.
Colleen, what would you, as afilm studies professor, what
would you recommend forlisteners to watch other than
(18:20):
we're all going to watch thisone now, um, to, to better
understand the culture?
We've mentioned a few so far,but we're, well, I mean, I
think.
We're really sort of having twoconversations when we talk about
Irish films, so that would, youknow, one would be how Ireland
and how Irish people arerepresented on film, and the
other would be how Irishfilmmakers or Irish writers
(18:40):
portray Ireland, you know, inliterature and film.
And while those are connected,it gets rather complicated to
sort those out.
And sometimes a littlecontested, I guess.
Yes, yeah.
And the Irish sometimes rebelagainst how they're Represented
in American.
I can imagine for sure.
And actually, I'm just to jumpoff to piggyback off of that
comment.
And we mentioned the quiet manearlier.
(19:00):
And while I don't want to spendtoo much time on that film, I do
think it kind of makes sense tostart there.
You know, It's probably the mostfamous film about Ireland to
this day, released in 1952.
It starred John Wayne andMaureen O'Hara.
And It's really the reversal ofthe typical Irish immigrant
story.
It's set in the 1920s.
And you have the American comingback to Ireland, you know,
(19:22):
seeking a better life and hisancestral home, the place where
he grew up as a boy.
And, it's very much, idealizedversion of, of Ireland, you
know, it's full of humor andcharm, but it's also full of
stereotypes.
So it's very, you know,problematic in that way.
Okay.
Um, but I think for asproblematic as it is, I think it
(19:44):
tells us a lot about howAmericans view Ireland.
Uh, at the very least, it tellsus a lot about how John Ford
viewed Ireland.
And so in that sense, it'sreally a kind of love letter to
Ireland, you know, it's thisnostalgic field.
A memory of a mythical placethat never really existed.
Um, but I do think the movieholds a special place in some
Irish American's hearts becauseI think it, it does, I think
(20:08):
powerfully represent a, like ahomesickness for a place our
great grandparents or greatgreat grandparents lived in and
left.
Um, so I think that's kind of agood starting point.
You know, by contrast, I thinkthere's kind of a bit of a leg
before you start to see Irishfilmmakers, not Irish writers,
but Irish filmmakers reallystart producing films, you know,
about Ireland or set in Ireland.
(20:30):
Um, but we, we have a wholebunch of those particularly
coming out in the nineties.
Um, so when you have like Irishscreenwriters and filmmakers
representing Ireland, it's in adifferent way.
And I would say it's You know,depicting a much more realistic
view of Ireland, kind ofspeaking back against that
mythical view of Ireland, oftendepicted in American popular
culture.
there's a whole grouping ofthese films that I would say are
(20:52):
historical and political, right?
Films like, The Crying Game, Inthe Name of the Father, Michael
Collins, The Cillian Murphy, forthose who know him.
71, Hunger, The Field, Bansheesof Innishirin.
There are more, but a lot ofthese films deal with either the
Irish War of Independence or thesubsequent Irish Civil War or
(21:16):
the Troubles coming later in the20th century.
Of all of those, if I had todirect viewers, you know, to one
of those, I would probablyrecommend in the name of the
father, It's an extremelypowerful film directed by Jim
Sheridan, um, came out, I wantto say in 1993 and it, stars.
Daniel Day Lewis as he playsJerry Conlin, who was in real
(21:41):
life, falsely accused of beingan IRA terrorist.
He was kind of wrong place,wrong time.
And he was in prison for many,many years along with his dad,
along with his dad and hisfather died in prison.
Oh, wow.
But it's, you know, Daniel DayLewis.
So it's just a tremendousperformance.
Um, and Yeah, it's, it's hardnot to get emotional talking
about the film because it's sopowerful.
(22:02):
The, the Irish imagine their,uh, civil rights movement that
began in the late 1960s, out ofwhich a lot of these films come,
I think they're commenting onthat struggle.
Which, which ends up becomingviolent and becoming the
troubles very quickly, but theyimagined this struggle in, in
the terms of the American civilrights movement and the early
(22:23):
marches they were singing.
We shall overcome, uh, which iswonderful to hear an Irish
accents.
Uh, they were inspired by MLK.
Uh, it was a nonviolent movementwhen it began and it was.
A movement that was demandingequal rights within the British
Empire.
So Northern Ireland, orlisteners who might not realize
(22:44):
this, uh, six counties inNorthern Ireland are still
attached to, to the UK.
Still to this day.
So, so the UK is actually fournations, England, Wales,
Scotland, and Northern Ireland.
Uh, and the 26 southern countiesof the Republic of Ireland,
which is a, um, you know, anindependent So those six
counties, the Catholicpopulation in those six counties
(23:07):
were second class citizens, andthey looked at their position as
analogous to black Americanshere in the United States and
took their inspiration from thatmovement.
what happened in Ireland thatdidn't happen here was that in
the face of the violence withwhich these, Nonviolent
protesters, uh, you know, whenthey met that violence, the IRA
(23:27):
revived itself and then became,you know, fashioned themselves
as the defenders of theCatholic, um, And were quite
violent, right?
At that point.
Yeah, I mean, there were, therewere terrorists and they, and,
and there were Protestantterrorist groups and the IRA was
a secret terrorist group that,that TV show that we just
referenced, Say Nothing, uh,based on the book, Say Nothing,
which is based on oral historiesthat were collected at Boston
(23:49):
College.
Uh, Bloody Sunday is about theevent that happened in, in 19th,
January of 1972.
It was, it was a peacefulprotest against the practice of
internment where the Britishwould just break into your house
and they would arrest the menand take them off to prison
camps.
And you, you had no right tostand before, uh, a judge.
(24:10):
Habeas corpus had beensuspended.
So it was a protest againstthis, uh, this practice.
And British army troops openedfire.
And so if you've heard the termBloody Sunday, it's probably
referring to that event.
And U2's song is referring toit.
But there's also, Colleenmentioned the film Michael
Collins, which came out in 1996.
(24:32):
Depicts the original BloodySunday, which was during the
original War of Independenceback in 1918 through 1921.
So, the Bloody Sunday in 1972was actually It was called
Bloody Sunday in reference tothe War of Independence.
Wow.
So it's not a surprise that thatfilm about the War of
(24:53):
Independence came out in the midnineties as people are debating,
you know, what is going to endup becoming the Good Friday
Agreement.
Shall we lay down our arms?
Should we?
Stop fighting and take the gunout of Irish politics, as the
phrase goes.
So a lot of these films, and Ithink this is Colleen, why the
1990s is such, I mean, it's agolden age of films made by
(25:18):
Irish folks.
but I think probably, and, andI'll have to defer to Colleen on
this, but I think by that time,now you've got a generation of
people who have been involved inthe film industry in the United
States and, or, or in England.
Some of the directors of thesefilms are actually Englishmen.
That's right.
Um, but now you, you've got abody of people Who are
(25:39):
professionals in the filmindustry, so they can start
making their own stuff, um,telling their own stories.
And so you get, um, Jim Sheridanis all over Irish film.
Some of the films I mentioned,several were directed by him.
He also directed My Left Foot.
Um, yes.
So you might recognize his namefrom that, but Neil Jordan
directs The Crying Game.
Were they both, those twodirectors, are they both Irish
(26:00):
or Jim Sheridan is Irish.
Yeah, Neil Jordan is too.
Neil Jordan's Irish.
In any case, yeah, I think Joe'spoint, we have this generation
of Irish filmmakers who've Whoare sort of kind of come into
their own and, come onto theworld kind of stage in the, in
the 80s and 90s.
Neil Jordan is part of acultural movement that's called
Ireland's Field Day.
Uh, Seamus Heaney, who was oneof those Nobel prize winners,
(26:23):
the poet, he was a member ofField Day.
Um, and what, what that groupdid is, um, they kind of modeled
themselves after that movement.
Celtic revival that I mentionedat the beginning of the 20th
century that helped create theIrish nation.
In a way, what Ireland's fieldday had to do was sort of
uncreate the image of Ireland.
(26:43):
That had been bequeathed to themby the, by the revival.
Uh, so they, they really imaginethemselves as, as working
collaboratively.
Poets, literary critics,playwrights.
Brian Friel is a playwrightthat's associated with it.
And the actor Stephen Ray is themost famous actor that comes out
of it.
And he's, he's in MichaelCollins.
(27:05):
He's in The Crying Game.
Uh, he is a character.
And say nothing because hemarries Dolores Price, the IRA
woman.
they do you think that theystill I'm just thinking about
the differences between here andthere.
Do you do you think they, Dosomething unique to encourage,
like to keep the next generationjust thinking about college
(27:28):
students, like continuing tohave faith that these are
valuable fields of study, youknow, like we're here in the
United States, we don't need toget into it, but humanities are
taking a hit.
I think we can go ahead and sayout loud that humanities are
under attack.
Yeah.
But I wonder with such a richculture of film and literature
(27:52):
and music.
If it's, if they're doingsomething different, and to
continue the next generation andgetting involved in telling
these stories.
Yeah, the government is involvedand they, they have, and I think
it's called the Irish FilmInstitute.
The Irish Film Institute isright, yeah.
Uh, and so they have money that,you know, can concede projects.
They definitely, they're,they're very conscious about
(28:14):
trying to make sure that theyhave a new generation of
filmmakers coming up.
I mean, just in general, theIrish are very invested in their
arts and in protecting theirarts.
We could learn something fromthem.
We, we, we absolutely could.
Yeah.
That's what you, that's exactlywhat you guys are doing.
So, um, Colleen, we've talked alot about films telling the kind
(28:36):
of male story in Ireland.
Are there any that you wouldmention that That tell the
female side of things for sure.
And I think there's been a fewreally important films that have
come out that some of you mayknow, um, that deal with the
Magdalene laundries.
These were, uh, convents thatyoung unmarried women who became
(28:59):
pregnant were sent to.
And this practice went on for avery long time.
Um, and so films like theMagdalene sisters, Um,
Philomena, which was a verypopular film and featured Judi
Dench.
If you remember that movie thatcame out in 2013.
And recently a film was releasedon the same topic called small
things like these based on thebook by Claire key.
(29:20):
That's correct.
Yeah.
And I haven't seen it yet, butagain, starting the popular
killing and it's hard to watchin all of those films, to be
honest, are hard to watch.
Philomena is by far the one thathas the most, comedy in it.
But even that is.
And this was young pregnantwomen who were taken into the
nunnery.
Not necessarily even pregnant.
Oh.
They might just.
(29:40):
Be, you know, hard to handle.
I'm sorry.
Yes, that's correct.
Sometimes just difficult women,right?
So women deemed difficult bytheir families.
This, went on from like the1750s through 1960s.
Um, the last one closed in thenineties.
Okay.
There you go.
No, I don't, I don't thinkpeople were still 1990s, but
(30:00):
these were essentially like workhouses, um, abused and where
women were kept, um, againsttheir will.
If they escape, the police wouldbring them back.
I mean, they were, they were defacto prisons.
So this is, you know, a darkchapter of Irish, uh, history.
And it wasn't just Ireland whohad these, convent homes, by the
(30:20):
way.
Other countries in Europe did aswell and other places, I think.
Um, but, but I mean, it'sdefinitely one of the dark
chapters of Irish history that Ithink is finally getting more
attention.
but we also have some lighthearted films that you talk
about.
Everything's not shown.
Some happy things in our own.
Yeah, there's actually a lot ofreally funny, um, movies.
Yeah, I think that BarrytownTrilogy is The Roddy Doyle The
(30:42):
Roddy Doyle, uh, films beginningwith The Commitments.
Which is just a really fun filmto watch.
If anybody has not seen TheCommitments, go watch it
tonight.
I love that movie.
Such a great movie.
So, the accents, I mean, thecharacters, it's all about music
and uh, uh.
And talk about an answer to likethe, you know, the more kind of
(31:04):
mythical view of the PastoralIreland Island that we think of.
This is, you know, it's urban,it's the working class Dublin,
uh, and it's, you know, justvery gritty.
Um, and again, they're, they'remodeling themselves after black
America, you know, that's,that's where they're taking
their inspiration.
That's right.
Yeah.
And it's young, like high schoolkids forming a band and they're
(31:25):
all incredibly talented.
And for this.
Brief period, they create thisamazing music together until it
falls apart.
Right.
They, they start feuding.
Right.
As they're on the brink ofsuccess.
Right.
That's right.
Right.
Wait a minute.
Wait.
We just, did we spoil the movie?
No, no, no.
One of my favorite scenes ofthat movie is when they do the
tryouts.
Do you remember?
(31:45):
Yes.
Door after door.
They're all horrible.
They just.
Shut the door.
Yeah.
One guy lines up and he thinks,uh, he's like, he has no
instrument and he's like, whatare you doing?
And he goes, I saw a line.
I thought everyone was buyingdrugs.
Such a good movie.
And romance.
There's some romance movies andbooks and plenty of romantic
(32:05):
novels, but for sure.
Well, we, I think we mentionedBrooklyn earlier.
I don't know.
I thought it was a really goodfilm.
Based on the novel by, um, ColmToybien.
Colm Toybien.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's an immigrant story, butit's unusual because it's, About
immigration in the 1950s, andthere were very few Irish coming
to the United States relative toNumbers that they came in before
(32:28):
which is one of the reasons whythat the quiet man is so
interesting is that's the 1950sby the time that gets made Most
Irish Americans are two threefour generations removed from
the old country, which is whyyou have this mythical Edenic
version of it But it'sinteresting to see that film
next to, to Brooklyn, seesomeone coming over in the 1950s
(32:51):
and her experience of America.
And it's, you know, it's a, it'sa powerful film.
I think it's a, it is abouthomesickness and heartbreak and
also in a way, kind of about howyou can't really go home again,
no matter where home is,there's.
Which that's such a universaltheme of, of home and what is
home life and can you go homeagain?
You can't go back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's told in so manydifferent genres.
(33:13):
I thought we started talkingabout, I know lighthearted
movies we're, we're back to, tocrying our eyes out.
I always bring it back to the,well, once they're good at
sadness, they're good atmelancholy, that's for sure.
Um, we're getting close to time,but I want to make sure we had a
couple more questions.
Joe, you had mentioned beforetwo films that were, are
particularly noteworthy.
(33:34):
and maybe mention them and whythey're significant for people
who are interested in this.
Yeah.
I will very briefly.
The first one is, uh, man ofAaron, Yeah.
It's set on the Aaron Islandsout in the West.
you know, the, the far West ofthe West coast of Ireland, uh,
next stop, New York kind ofplace.
And these are barren, rocky,very difficult living islands.
(33:57):
And for the Irish symbolically,these are really important.
This is like the Iowa or theNebraska.
When you think of what is theheart of Irish culture, the, uh,
the Irish want to get as faraway from England as possible.
So they, the Aran Islandsymbolically are the place with
the least amount ofAnglicization.
So the.
didn't need to do a lot of deanglicizing to become Irish.
(34:20):
Uh, so, uh, an Americanfilmmaker, Robert Flaherty,
who's the father or maybegrandfather of documentary film,
um, Ken Burns, you know, isdescended from, from Robert
Flaherty.
He went out there for a coupleof years and filmed these people
and he put together a narrativeand, and by today's standards.
This is neither anthropology nordocumentary.
(34:41):
It's really very heavy handedwhat he did.
Um, but on the other hand, atthe time, it was taken as an
accurate picture of what lifewas like for these very
subsistence level farmers andfishermen out there in the Aran
Islands.
And it came out in 19.
And talk about remote.
Yes.
Very remote.
Yes.
And it came out in 1934.
(35:02):
And a significant thing aboutit, there's no reference to
England at all.
This is when it came out, theIrish took it as, here is the
genuine, uh, mirror image.
If we look in the mirror, thisis what we want to see.
We wanna see the man of Aaron.
Um, and.
You know, Colleen was talkingabout those Magdalene films.
(35:23):
This is, this is one of theconsequences of getting their
independence.
Ireland got its independence,but it became very much, you
know, what we would callChristian nationalism today.
So the Catholic Church was veryinterwoven.
It was written into theConstitution, um, and very
conservative.
(35:43):
And, uh, the government had aheavy hand in promoting a
certain self image and that selfimage was rural.
It was traditional women'splaces in the home.
It actually says that in theConstitution.
Wow.
You know?
So, the Magdalene, uh,laundries, I think, are, are one
consequence of that too.
(36:04):
Not, I mean, if you watch TheMan of Aaron, there's nothing to
do with Magdalene laundries.
But it's, it's, it's of a piece,that kind of cultural.
Artifact.
Um, so that's one.
And it's a, it's a brilliantfilm too.
I, I would recommend people tosee it.
The other that I wanted tomention was Going My Way, which
is the film that, uh, and thisis, this is, there's a lot of
(36:26):
lighthearted moments in this.
If you, if you want to have somelaughs, watch Going My Way.
1944, it's during World War II,uh, big sort of breakout for
Bing Crosby.
Uh, Leo McCary is the directorand the writer of the story.
Uh, Barry Fitzgerald, who playsa minor, I mean, a supporting
role in The Quiet Man, is, uh,is in the film.
(36:49):
And more than anything else,more than any other film, I
think, Going My Way indicatesthe mainstreaming of Irish
Catholics in American society.
By 1944, You're no longer,there's no longer any harm from
being an Irish Catholic.
There's no penalties.
(37:09):
There's no, no real prejudice.
I mean, there may be in someplaces, you know, you might not
be able to get into some countryclub or something, but, but.
By and large, that film reallymarks the, the Irish Catholics
are now right there in the heartof mainstream America.
Won seven Academy Awards.
Uh, you know, it was pretty muchannounced, We're here.
(37:33):
And again, just to remindpeople, I'll put, I'll find
links to these where people canwatch them.
And I'll put that in the shownotes.
So I'll leave listeners withfour recommendations, two
serious and two, um, maybe morelighthearted, but one I already
mentioned in the name of thefather, which I think is
absolutely a must, uh, must seea film.
(37:54):
I also would recommend 71, whichis a great movie.
That is about a British soldierwho gets separated from his unit
after a riot in Belfast in 1971,which was one of the worst times
for the Troubles.
And he has to survive the nightbehind enemy lines.
And it's, it's a thriller andit's just really, um, terrific.
It just explores the complexityof alliances and the conflicts
(38:16):
at the heart of the Troubles andjust the very confusing how
interwoven, uh, they are.
Um, just a great movie.
But to leave us on a morelighthearted note, one of my
very favorite movies, um, set inIreland is Waking Ned Devine.
Oh, I forgot about that.
So that's, um, 1998 and it'sjust this delightful, you know,
(38:37):
feel good comedy about a smallIrish town who bands together to
claim a winning lottery ticket,from a dead man.
yeah, and then we alreadymentioned this one too, but the
commitments, I think if youhaven't seen it, I would
definitely recommend that.
And I think you mentioned onceearlier, which I absolutely love
people know that film because itwon an Academy Award for the
best original song when it cameout in 2007, featuring Glenn
(39:00):
Hansard, who's also in thecommitments.
He is outspan in thecommitments.
Yeah.
So he's one of the band membersin the commitments.
And then he goes on to greaterfame.
Well, um, thank you guys somuch.
We are so appreciative of youcoming in here and telling us
all these wonderful stories andit just makes me want to book a
(39:20):
ticket and go right back thereand explore more of that
beautiful country.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Speaking of College
of Charleston with today'sguests Colleen Glenn and Joe
Kelly.
If you like this episode, pleasehelp us reach more listeners by
sharing it with a friend orleaving a review.
(39:43):
For show notes and moreepisodes, visit the College of
Charleston's official news site.
The College Today at today.
charleston.
edu.
You can find more episodes onall major podcast platforms.
This episode was produced by AmyStockwell with recording and
sound engineering by Jesse Kunzfrom the Division of Information
(40:07):
Technology.
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