July 16, 2025 • 41 mins
Domestic violence cuts across all layers of society, affecting people of every age, background, and socioeconomic status. In this powerful conversation, Dr. Holly Thacker welcomes attorneys Ashleigh Holmes and Alexandria Ruden to break down the critical facts about intimate partner violence that everyone should know.
The statistics are sobering: a woman is assaulted by an intimate partner every nine seconds in the United States. The National Domestic Violence Hotline receives a staggering 775,000 contacts annually. But behind these numbers are real people facing complex, dangerous situations that aren't always visible to others.
Whether you're personally affected by domestic violence, supporting someone who is, or simply want to better understand this pervasive issue, this episode provides crucial insights that could save lives. Remember, no one deserves to live in fear, and there are resources available to help:
- National Domestic Violence Hotline: call 800-799-7233 or text BEGIN to 88788 with confidential support 24/7/36
- domesticshelters.org
- Ohio Secretary of State Safe at Home Program: find an application at SafeAtHomeOhio.gov or call 614.995.2255
- Ohio Domestic Violence Network - Reports & Fact Sheets
- Ohio Domestic Violence Network (ODVN): 1-800-934-9840
- National DV Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233)
- Journey Center for Safety and Healing: 1-216-391-HELP (4357)
- Ohio Legal HELP: 1-614-285-6710
- The Legal Aid Society of Cleveland: 1-888-817-3777
- Jewish Family Services Association (JFSA)
- Witness Victim Services & Family Justice Center: 216-443-7345
- Cuyahoga County Domestic Relations Court: 216-443-3155 (Domestic Violence Advocate)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Speaking of Women's Health
podcast.
I'm your host, dr Holly Thacker.
I'm the Executive Director ofSpeaking of Women's Health, and
thanks for joining me back inour sunflower house for a brand
new episode.
And most of our topics arehappy and upbeat and uplifting
(00:26):
because our mission is to bestrong, be healthy and be in
charge.
But we do need to cover somevery important, delicate and
distressing topics.
As you'll recall, at the end ofseason one and the end of
season two we covered end oflife care planning and very
(00:46):
important to do in the wholelife cycle.
We also have covered divorceand what women need to do to
kind of be prepared and tounderstand some of those
loopholes.
Today's topic is a veryimportant topic that cuts across
all layers of society and thatis domestic violence, and we in
(01:10):
the medical field have termed itintimate partner violence.
And I have two fabulous guestswith me today that I'm so happy
to introduce.
They're both attorneys, ashleyBrie and Alexandria Rudin, and
we're going to discuss veryimportant topics and some new
changes in Ohio law.
(01:31):
Now we're in 80 countries,we're currently in the state of
Ohio and there's some newlegislation that just took
effect in August or in March ofthis year and then.
So we'll be talking about that.
But I always encourage peoplethat this is not medical advice
or it's not legal advice.
(01:51):
We just want to empower you.
There may be someone in yourfamily or yourself or your
circle of friends.
So about Ashley?
She graduated magna cum laudewith a bachelor of Arts in
Political Science and then shewent to Cleveland Marshall
College of Law and she wasnumber one in her class and had
(02:12):
a 4.0 GPA and she is an attorneyand also a mother of a
delightful six-year-old son,william, who Artemis loves
playing with.
You all have heard about mygranddaughter, artemis and his.
He's had fabulous birthdayparties.
He turned her on to Spider-Manand being a superhero and I
(02:32):
think that's a really goodfeeling and we all want to have
that internal agency and power.
And she also loves to exerciseand run and advocate and create
opportunities for children withautism throughout Northeast Ohio
.
Our second guest, alexandriaRudin, is a supervising attorney
(02:56):
at the Legal Aid Society ofCleveland and she has special
expertise in domestic violencerepresentation and she is on
several committees andassociations.
Is admitted to the SupremeCourt of Ohio, the Advisory
Committee on Domestic Violence.
The Supreme Court of OhioSubcommittee on Abuse, neglect
(03:19):
and Dependency, an officerpresidency, an officer, a board
member for the Office ofCriminal Justice and several
other statewide andcommunity-wide important
committees and she's a nationallecturer and she's also a
trainer and she's alsoco-authored Ohio's Domestic
(03:40):
Violence Law and she's receiveda lot of awards for exceptional
service in the field of familyviolence prevention and Ohio
criminal justice services.
So I am thrilled to welcomeboth of you.
Welcome Ashley and Alexandria.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Holly.
So I first want to talk and askAlexandria.
Like we talk about intimatepartner violence, try to be as
comprehensive and inclusive aspossible.
But you were saying thatdomestic violence is the term in
the state of Ohio.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
And that's based, interestingly, on the statute
and domestic violence, ourfamily or household member
relationships.
And because of the way Ohio hasconstructed all their
protection order statutes wehave so many, we have six
statewide protection orderstatutes that each addresses
(04:39):
something different oneaddresses dating violence, one
addresses juvenile, oneaddresses non-intimate partner
stalking relationships and oneaddresses family or household
members.
And then we have criminalstatutes as well.
But because we have terminated,we've made the term domestic
(05:02):
violence.
We use that Now, interestingly,other people do use intimate
partner violence, but intimatepartner violence is a bit
broader than what we use asdomestic violence, Suffice it to
say I don't think it reallymatters.
I think intimate partnerviolence is a larger term and
(05:23):
covers more, but we include thatas family or household members.
And again, when we use that asfamily or household members, we
are considering family violenceas well, not just intimate
partners.
That's why our statute isbroader and it includes that.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
So I recently was renewing my license medical
license in Florida and theyactually have mandatory domestic
violence and violence againstchildren training.
I thought that was veryinteresting.
Ashley, can you talk to us alittle bit about myths?
I mean, I think that a lot ofpeople are embarrassed if
(06:06):
they've been involved or avictim of domestic violence.
Can you just give us a littlebit about the statistics and why
?
This is something that reallywe all should be aware of and
know what our resources and ourremedies are.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Absolutely, holly.
Well, as you are probably wellaware, domestic violence does
remain a significant pervasivecrisis on a nationwide and a
statewide level.
The National Domestic ViolenceHotline, which is one of the
resources available to victims,gets a staggering 775,000 calls
(06:47):
per year calls, chats or textspeople reaching out.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Do you have that number?
We can certainly put it in theshow notes.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yes, I can get you after this, like my outline with
the stats.
Approximately one in 10 womenhave experienced physical
violence, rape or stalking by anintimate partner.
In this country, a woman isassaulted by an intimate partner
every nine seconds, and on astatewide level it's interesting
(07:18):
because the Ohio DomesticViolence Network Domestic
Violence Network, which is anagency in Columbus that does
lobbying it's a resource forvictims.
I'm sure that Alexandra can talkmore about ODSI, the High
Domestic Violence Network, butthey do every year.
So for the last 18 years,they've participated in this
(07:40):
national counts of domesticviolence incidences and other
stats about domestic violencethrough the National Network to
End Domestic Violence.
So that's an organization inWashington DC that the Ohio
Domestic Violence Networkbelongs to, and so for 18 years,
they've done these counts andso like, for example, you know,
(08:01):
according to the 18th annualreport, they collect data from
like a single day in a year Ithink it was like September 7th
of 2023.
They say you know, they pick aday each year.
We're going to see how manypeople call this day, how many
people are served in Ohio injust one day, and they do that
every year for the last 18 years, and so in 2023, you know, they
(08:22):
received 658 contacts.
That's just in one day, so thataverages more than 27 contacts
per hour.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
They served 2,445 victims, whether it be providing
transitional housing or otherresources, and the 17th annual
counts report was very similar,except they served, you know,
2,900 victims of the five-yearanniversary of the pandemic and
certainly with all the shutdowns, there was definite increases
(09:07):
in violence abuse of children,abuse of women and I know our
laws have recently changed.
Before we get into all of thatdetail, I wanted Alexandria to
tell us just a little bit aboutthe historical context of how
this has evolved and howviolence amongst strangers is
(09:27):
different than someone that youknow.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Well, I will start by saying domestic violence has
existed from the beginning oftime.
We used to have an edict inRussia in the 1600s that spelled
out how a man most effectivelybeat his wife.
He was even allowed to kill herif he did so for disciplinary
purposes.
In England we had the rule ofthumb you could beat your wife,
(09:54):
but it's with a stick less thickthan the thumb.
Then we moved into America andwhat we found in the 1800s is
let's ignore domestic violence.
Remember, this is a familymatter.
Let's leave it up to theparties to forgive and forget.
And that brought us into the20th century and suddenly we had
(10:18):
the women's movement, we hadthe civil rights movement and
out of that women began to talkand realize there were many
problems.
So they looked at the laws onthe book and we had assault laws
.
But assault?
The judicial system and the lawenforcement system treated
(10:40):
assaults between strangers verydifferently than assaults
between family or householdmembers, specifically spouses at
that point.
So if you're a spouse, you goback with your husband.
We don't want to expendresources for you.
If you're a stranger, thesepeople will not go back with
(11:02):
their assaulter, so we're gonnafocus on them.
However, as more and more womengot together from different
areas all around the country.
Really, there was adetermination that we needed to
look at domestic violence as acrime, separate and apart from
(11:22):
assault, and the only way wecould do that is to create a
statute specific to domesticviolence.
And that is exactly what we did.
So we we put we put domesticviolence, assaults and issues,
giving it a level playing field,and then we began to train on
(11:44):
it.
And of course in Ohio we havetwo aspects of the law.
We have the crime of domesticviolence and then we have civil
protection orders, which is theissue in itself.
That means a victim can callthe prosecutor.
A victim can ask that chargesbe filed.
Prosecutor has to make thatdetermination, whether there's
(12:07):
cause for it.
But a civil protection order isvictim-driven.
She goes into a courthouse, sheasks for a protection order,
for protection for herself, forher children, and then there are
several remedies that go alongwith it.
But that's sort of how thisdeveloped.
And for Ohio in 1975, thenAttorney General William Brown
(12:30):
convened a task force todetermine whether domestic
violence was epidemic in thestate and out of that Ohio's
domestic violence law was passedin 1979.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And it's taken all this time to figure out what to
do with this statute and and so,ashley, you were telling me
that in march of this year, 2025, that there was a new law that
went into effect.
Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
yes.
So, um, in march, march 20th of2025, there were actually two
there was a Senate Bill 100,which created an entire new
statute criminalizing placing atracking device or application
(13:20):
on a person's person or theirproperty without their consent
or failing to remove the same ifconsent had previously been
given and is now revoked.
And there's even presumptionsin the statute that if consent
was given, it's automaticallyrevoked.
So, if one of the parties filesfor divorce or disillusion, if
(13:41):
one of the parties goes andseeks a protection order,
disillusion, if one of theparties goes and seeks a
protection order, then consentis revoked presumptively under
the statute and you are toremove or discontinue use of
that tracking device andtracking application.
And the reason that this isvery germane is because, you
know, I don't know if we'regoing to get into.
You know, in 1984, the year Iwas born, the creation of the
(14:03):
power and control wheel,domestic violence.
You think, oh, you know, in1984, the year I was born, the
creation of the power andcontrol wheel, domestic violence
.
You think, oh, you know,getting hit in the face.
No, it's a pot of play oftactics used to gain and
maintain control over the victim, and one of those tactics
that's often used is stalking,is overreaching the boundaries
of privacy of the victim.
(14:23):
Overreaching the boundaries ofprivacy of the victim.
So the fact that we are nowcriminalizing placing a tracking
device or application on, youknow, someone's person or
property is huge.
There are some exceptions thatI think, unfortunately, courts
could interpret too broadly tokind of undercut the purpose of
this law.
But the fact that we have thislaw and we have organizations
(14:44):
like the ones that Alexandriaare part of, like Ohio Domestic
Violence Network, to be able toattempt to construe those
exceptions narrowly and be ableto enforce this, is very huge.
I think it's a huge stepforward, because stalking is
definitely one of those elementsof the power and control wheel,
and so are most of the peopledoing the stalking of women?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
are they generally people that know the woman, and
is it different if it's justsome unknown person who decides
to stalk a person?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think alexandria could speak to that, because,
yes, there there's definitely,there's a civil stalking
protection order where you don'thave to be a family or
household member, and then, um,it would be different if you're
a family or household member.
So, if you want to speak tothat, alexandria- here's what
what I've learned.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Stalking is domestic violence when it occurs between
family or household members.
When it is non family orhousehold members, which which
include spouses, former spouses,people related by blood or
marriage, people who are notliving together but who have a
child in common, and people whoare living as spouses, people
(15:54):
who are cohabiting or who havecohabited within five years.
That's the definition of thosefamilies who are covered.
Now, if you fit outside of that, you may be seeing somebody
you're not really dating.
There could be strangerstalking that would be under a
different statute, but thedefinition of stalking is going
(16:17):
to be the same no matter whichstatute you look at.
Again, I laugh as I'm talkinglike this because Ohio has a
very convoluted set of statutesand each statute addresses
potentially a different crime.
But everything came out of theof the domestic violence statute
(16:38):
.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So let's take like a bigger picture, since I you know
people are listening in alldifferent countries and states,
and since this is a pervasiveproblem of different ages,
different backgrounds, differentsocioeconomics, it's not, you
know what might be common mythsthat people have.
What are some of the basic do'sand don'ts for women or
(17:02):
children or anyone?
You know, elderly people aswell, who might be abused by
their younger family members ofdoing if you're ensconced in
some perilous situation?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
One thing I would say and this is kind of speaking a
little outside of the box.
I don't know if you guys sawlike 10 months ago I'm sure a
lot of your viewers would haveseen that this was trending all
over on social media that TikTokdid a video where they asked a
bunch of women if they wouldrather be stranded in a forest
with a wild bear or with a manand seven out of eight said that
(17:39):
they would prefer the bear.
And for a number of reasons,just because you know it was
predictable, you're either goingto get killed by the bear or
the bear is going to ignore you.
It can't be like someone youlove, hurting you, humiliating
you, degrading you, just frombased on experiences that women
have gone through with men.
It was a very popular, trendingthing and what it made me think
of today was, however you feelon the bear versus man
(18:03):
controversy, you wouldn't go upin the forest to a bear and hit
a bear with a shoe.
Don't antagonize If you're in aperilous situation.
If you're in the heat of aperilous situation, it is not
the time to take a stand.
I don't think I'm not sayingput your head down.
(18:33):
This isn't the 1950s, but youhave to come up with a plan, a
safety plan.
Do not try to takericateyourself from immediate danger
and then have time to if youknow if you're going to leave.
I mean there's and we can getinto the myths.
There's a myriad of reasons.
Women don't leave that they.
They decide that that's not thebest course of action for their
safety or their family or theirfinancial security, and that's
(18:55):
a personal choice.
But if you are going to leaveit, it needs to be a rational,
planned out situation, asopposed to antagonizing a
dangerous person in the heat ofthe peril.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, I think that's a very, very important point,
like we have information infemale only restrooms at the
hospital with, you know, 1-800numbers and resources, because
an exit safety plan has to be inplace and the time of a woman
(19:33):
exiting is the highest risk for,you know, injury and murder.
To re assault yes, is thehighest risk for injury and
murder To re assault yes, yeah,and I'm thinking years ago, one
of my physician colleagues sophysicians are educated and
generally have financialresources they're not
necessarily financiallyconstrained as some people in
other situations might be whowas being abused by her
(19:56):
physician spouse and she madeher exit plan and, of course,
didn't tell anyone, except ofcourse she told me because, um,
I am in charge of a big centerand have a lot of patients, and,
um, the plan was we can't letanyone know or cancel patients
(20:16):
or anything else, because wecan't let this abuser aware that
she's going to be going, and soit was very stealth, and so I
think that women need resourcesin order to make plans to do
that without the abuser knowingwhat.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I tell my clients is clients will come in.
They want a protection order,they want a divorce.
I only represent victims ofdomestic violence, so I'm very
limited in my practice.
But I tell them that they needto pull together all their
important papers to begin tosave money, to create a safety
(20:57):
plan, not only only withthemselves but, let's say, with
a neighbor, so if their abuseris going it's hurting them, they
can go by the door and turn onthe light or do something to
make somebody aware and have allthat information.
So if they have to leave, theyhave that ability.
(21:19):
The problem becomes when theytheir behavior is
counterintuitive they don'tleave.
They don't leave because theybelieve that they'll be killed.
If they do leave, they reallylove him.
Whatever the reason is, thenyou have a higher system, the
court court system or the lawenforcement system that would
(21:41):
say wait a second, if she werethat badly abused she would have
left.
And so that's where theeducation comes in.
It's training every system tounderstand each of the myths, to
understand why women stay, whythey go back, why they don't
leave in the beginning.
But we can't lose sight of thefact that we're here to help
(22:03):
them and we need to keep movingthem forward.
And that means the safetyplanning, that means being there
.
It takes a woman usually sevento nine times to get out of a
bad situation.
So if I were training lawyers Iwould say be there for them the
next time, because the nexttime they could get out.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
What about just training for the non-lawyer?
You know, the non-social worker, the non-law enforcement person
, just someone in the community,like maybe someone listening,
who is a church member or is,you know, part of a community
group or a mom's group?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
For a mom's group, for a church group, and then,
ashley, you'll be able to talkabout that as well.
But I would explain the myths.
If it were me, I would explainwhy women leave, why they stay.
If it were me, I would explainwhy women leave, why they stay,
and what to look for in thebatterer, in the victim, how
they respond.
That's what I would do.
(23:05):
The other thing I would do istalk a little bit about not just
the survivor but their childrenand different ways to look at
their children.
One thing Ohio has that wentinto effect is a safe at home.
It's addressed confidentiality.
If you are a victim of domesticviolence, stalking, human
(23:27):
trafficking, dating violence andyou move to a place where your
abuser does not know where youlive, you can contact the Ohio
Secretary of State's office andyou will be given, if you follow
the application, you will begiven a PO box.
(23:48):
That PO box will be used on allpublic documents and then the
Secretary of State will sendthose documents, whatever it
could be service of papers, itcould be any kind of mail Then
it will be sent to the victimfrom the Secretary of State's
office.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Oh, that's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I didn't know that Most states in the United States
have it.
I don't know around the worldit could be Again.
So much that's happened in theUnited States is moving around
the world Family justice centers, strangulation, addressing the
issue of strangulation so it maybe that other countries do have
(24:27):
something like that.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I don't know.
So we'll definitely want thatnumber for at least Ohio
Secretary of State to put in ourshow notes of state to put in
our show notes and also any kindof shelters, any, you know 24-7
hotlines.
You know that people can reachout to and get that information.
Why is strangulation lawsdifferent than just any other
(24:52):
physical violence law?
That's that seems interesting,or different.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
As a lawyer.
every time a client said myhusband choked me, I would write
it down and call it domesticviolence and never think
something anything else about itand never look at the danger it
poses, because victims can bekilled by strangulation even
(25:19):
when there are no visibleinjuries, when there's petechiae
and it should be that everyonewho encounters a woman who says
they've been choked, strangledis what we would say, but every
time a victim says that weshould advise them to seek
medical attention and we need tolook at strangulation as the
(25:43):
last warning shot beforefemicide.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And if femicide is the woman being killed?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yes, and then any comments about other situations,
like I have women in mypractice who have daughters who
are like maybe of age, butthey're still young, but they're
over age 18 and they're inthese bad dating situations,
abusive situations.
And I also have patients whohave elderly relatives and
(26:18):
they're not happy with howsomeone else is treating that
elderly person, you know,because if they die then there's
inheritance or there's othermoney or there's some other
motivation.
Are those all under domesticviolence as well, or not?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
If let's say, I abuse my daughter or my daughter
abuses me, that's how you wouldwant to.
My daughter abuses me?
Yes, that is domestic violencebecause we have a family or
household relationship.
She was my child, so, yes, thatis covered.
(26:56):
Children are covered as well.
Dating partners are covered nowunder a recently enacted
statute.
So we have all that, and thething is, what we need to do is
we need to change the paradigm.
We need to begin to talk aboutdomestic violence, dating
(27:16):
violence, creating healthyrelationships when children are
young.
The other piece is we need tomake significant movement with
our juvenile courts, becausesomething I learned that I
fought because I said, ah, itcan't be true.
It's that almost everyperpetrator was a victim.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Oh, really.
So it's like a cycle ofviolence.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It is such a cycle and the goal is how do we break
that cycle of violence?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, that was one of the things that was really
brought home to me in theeducation that I was doing for
my continuing medical education.
And, you know, in order to be,you know, completely looking at
all aspects, even though weobviously know, biologically men
are generally bigger andstronger and can physically
overtake women, um, in the vastmajority of the situations,
(28:09):
there probably are somesituations where males are
victims of domestic violence,are victims of domestic violence
, and I would think that wouldbe even harder on you know, to
try to get help for that as aman.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yes, I think it's harder to seek the resources
they may need, but I stillbelieve.
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but Ibelieve that domestic violence
is a crime against women.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Definitely, strangulation is a crime, sure,
sure, but there's also same-sexrelationships and absolutely you
know parent child orstep-parent child, you know, and
I think what does get lost isthe same sex.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
You know where talk I ?
When I talk, I generally usedisclaimers that say I speak in
terms of the woman being theabused, the male being the
perpetrator.
I recognize that men can beabused and I recognize that the
same dynamics occur between theLGBTQ community.
(29:18):
So I recognize that.
But it's very hard when you'retraining or talking.
Just talk in terms of he, sheor they.
It doesn't follow as easily forme.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
No, I understand, I just wanna make anyone listening
that, if anyone is-.
We don't wanna minimize thatAbused in perilous situations,
you know that's obviously notacceptable.
And when a woman or a personwho's abused fights back for
their own, um personal safety, Imean what happens if they're,
(29:55):
you know, if they kill theirabuser?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
in terms of that whole aspect, there is a
battered women's syndromedefense and then there's also
just general self-defense.
I mean with battered women'ssyndrome defense my
understanding is that doesn'teven have to be in the heat of
the moment.
With self-defense, you use thewhen you're defending yourself.
(30:19):
The standard is it has to bereasonable for the force that's
exerted, as you, for like,example, if someone just I don't
know slaps me across the facelike, and then they back down, I
can't just go grab my gun andshoot him and be like, well, my
husband was trying to kill me,like, yes, he committed domestic
violence by slapping me acrossthe face, but that wasn't enough
force for me to go shoot him inthe head and say it was just
(30:42):
basic self-defense.
But with battered women,syndrome defense, um, and that's
a very limited exception.
I'm not even sure it'srecognized in Ohio.
I haven't thought about itsince law school but I remember,
um, you know, if you're.
I mean, like she said, it'susually nine, seven to nine
incidences before you leave.
I mean, some women aresubjected to severe malignant
(31:05):
abuse, day after day after dayafter day, for, you know, 20
years.
And if they kill their abuser,even if it's not in the direct
heat of the moment, even if itwas more excessive than a
general self-defense force, theycan utilize that to mitigate or
be exonerated.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yes, and now they're looking at calling it.
They haven't changed thestatute.
There is a full statute.
Instead of the battered women'ssyndrome defense, it's the
battered women's syndromedefense, it's the battered
women's experiences.
But I want to go one stepfurther and talk about the, the
medical community and what theycan do.
Yes, that's every time asurvivor comes in, even if they
(31:49):
say I fell over a fence or Iknocked myself in the eye, under
Ohio law they have anobligation to note in that
patient's records known orsuspected abuse.
That also means that I can saymy patient's injuries are
(32:13):
inconsistent with what thatvictim says.
I suspect violence perpetrated,even if they don't say it.
So that creates a record.
So in the event he kills her orshe kills him, then that
hopefully will be able to comeout and show that maybe she was
(32:38):
a survivor, a victim of domesticviolence.
That's really important to beable to bring up, and so we
depend on the medical community.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well, my perspective and we do have a lot of
physicians and nurses who listento our podcast, because we do
have some CME podcasts For anyof you physicians from season
one where you can listen and getfree CME.
This is not one today, but Iteach my residents and fellows
in the field of women's health,which I specialize in, that when
(33:10):
we see a woman and theirpartner insist on physically
being present for the whole exam, that sets off all sorts of
alarms and we pretty much have apolicy where we say part of the
time, especially the exam part,we don't allow that person to
be in the room, and that's whensometimes things are discovered.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
And you also ask women because in 1994, that's
what we had put in the statutethat medical professionals will
ask.
You know that domestic violenceis very dangerous and they
should be asking and separatingthe parties and, as part of that
, what's come out of that is areyou safe in your home?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yes, yes, and we do have nurses generally routinely
ask those questions andcertainly I think emergency room
personnel that sees fracturesand lacerations will ask those
questions.
When my middle son graduatedfrom high school and we were
having this graduation party Iwas filming holding a camcorder
(34:18):
and a bee bit me in the ear andso I went like this to get the
bee and I just like lacerated mywhole forehead and everybody
was having so much fun at theparty I had to like drive myself
to the emergency room to go getstitches.
And so like they immediatelywere thinking like you know,
asking me questions about that,and I said no, it's just my own,
(34:39):
my own idiocy.
And then they said don't letthe door hit you on the way out.
Like OK, gee, thanks.
Like I was clumsy, but itreally.
You know, domestic violence isvery serious, it can be very
deadly, it's very pervasive.
We've only just touched on justsome of the topics.
We have so much more to go intoabout civil and criminal in the
(35:02):
future, and you know what aboutwith children and custody, and
there's so many more issues thatwe can get into and maybe we
should have you ladies back onanother episode.
I just wanted to give you eacha chance to give a little
wrap-up statement and anythingwhere people can contact you, or
(35:23):
resources or websites oranything else that you would
like to to say.
I'll start with you, ashley.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yes, so there are so many more facets.
We didn't get into the otherchange to the law that came into
effect on March 20th, so maybewe can do another episode where
we touch on that, because someof the penalties for third-time
offenders were enhanced,especially for the victim being
pregnant or the fetus beingharmed.
(35:52):
So that's another positive stepin the right direction.
But we have ways to go to getto where we need to be to start
to ameliorate this undeniablecrisis, and I would just say
that the safety plan is key.
Getting your resources in orderand learning about government
(36:14):
assistance.
That's something that most womenprobably have never seen in
their life, probably neverthought about, but you know when
you're leaving.
You know in 99% of cases that'slike universal statistics on
all these domestic violencewebsites there's financial abuse
.
So the woman, even if she had acareer, that she left to stay
home with the kids, even if shehas a degree, even if she is
(36:36):
working, you know sometimes theresources are not provided to
her, they're not given, so she'sliterally left with nothing.
So just learning how tonavigate all that prior to
exiting to make your situationmore sustainable for yourself
and your children and just besafe, and I think Alexandra will
(36:57):
be able to provide a lot of theimmediate resources to contact.
But I would just say, the moreyou can plan in advance, before
you extricate yourself from thesituation, the better off you'll
be and the safer you'll be whenyou do leave and I would
encourage all of our listeners.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
If you didn't hear the podcast that I did with an
attorney who's an expert indomestic law, ava Saulnier, on
divorce and getting yourfinancial assets and papers and
all of that in order, that's anexcellent one to go back to
listen to and she's like a newmom now.
(37:35):
That's exciting listen to andshe's like a new mom now.
That's exciting.
So, alexandria, let's have yourfinal wrap-up points and where
people can contact you if theymight need your services.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Well, I want to start by saying that in the area of
domestic violence, ohio has Ohiohas one of the better statutes.
The problem is not as much ouris not our statute, it's the
enforcement of our statute bythe professionals who have to
(38:05):
enforce it.
That's where we have thebiggest problem.
Additionally, one of the two ofthe issues that really need to
come up is creating expertwitnesses to come to court to
explain domestic violence tocourt systems before they award
custody and, as Ashley talkedabout, we really need to focus.
(38:27):
You mentioned financial abuse.
We don't have in our state.
There are only a few states thathave it coercive, controlling
behavior codified in their laws.
I know the UK has it.
I can't remember othercountries have it.
We don't.
Now every victim, at least inthe United States and probably
(38:48):
around the world.
There are law offices forlow-income clients, like in the
United States.
We have the Legal ServicesCorporation and we have various
legal aids that address domesticviolence.
We have each state has acoalition, a statewide coalition
(39:12):
.
Ours is the Ohio DomesticViolence Network and, as we've
trained medical professionalsand forensic nurses about
domestic violence andstrangulation, they are situated
in various hospitals.
But the last thing I wanted tosay is victims need to know they
(39:34):
are not alone.
And if you are not a victim butyou have somebody in your
family, the biggest thing is bethere, even if it becomes
frustrating because they go back, because you never know that
the next time you open yourheart to them they won't get out
, and if you fail to open yourheart they could be dead.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Well, thank you so much, Ashley and Alexandria, for
joining me on this specialSpeaking of Women's Health
podcast on domestic violence.
Please check our show notes forthese resources and thank you
to our listeners for tuning into Speaking of Women's Health,
(40:19):
and we're so grateful for yoursupport and we hope that you'll
support the podcast, share itwith others, leave us a
five-star rating and to catchall the latest from Speaking of
Women's Health, please subscribe.
Hit the subscribe or followbutton on Apple Podcasts Spotify
TuneIn wherever you listen soyou won't miss any future
(40:40):
episodes.
Thanks for listening.
Remember, be strong, be healthyand be in charge.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
We agree.
Welcome to the Speaking of Women's Health
podcast.
I'm your host, dr Holly Thacker.
I'm the Executive Director ofSpeaking of Women's Health, and
thanks for joining me back inour sunflower house for a brand
new episode.
And most of our topics arehappy and upbeat and uplifting
(00:26):
because our mission is to bestrong, be healthy and be in
charge.
But we do need to cover somevery important, delicate and
distressing topics.
As you'll recall, at the end ofseason one and the end of
season two we covered end oflife care planning and very
(00:46):
important to do in the wholelife cycle.
We also have covered divorceand what women need to do to
kind of be prepared and tounderstand some of those
loopholes.
Today's topic is a veryimportant topic that cuts across
all layers of society and thatis domestic violence, and we in
(01:10):
the medical field have termed itintimate partner violence.
And I have two fabulous guestswith me today that I'm so happy
to introduce.
They're both attorneys, ashleyBrie and Alexandria Rudin, and
we're going to discuss veryimportant topics and some new
changes in Ohio law.
(01:31):
Now we're in 80 countries,we're currently in the state of
Ohio and there's some newlegislation that just took
effect in August or in March ofthis year and then.
So we'll be talking about that.
But I always encourage peoplethat this is not medical advice
or it's not legal advice.
(01:51):
We just want to empower you.
There may be someone in yourfamily or yourself or your
circle of friends.
So about Ashley?
She graduated magna cum laudewith a bachelor of Arts in
Political Science and then shewent to Cleveland Marshall
College of Law and she wasnumber one in her class and had
(02:12):
a 4.0 GPA and she is an attorneyand also a mother of a
delightful six-year-old son,william, who Artemis loves
playing with.
You all have heard about mygranddaughter, artemis and his.
He's had fabulous birthdayparties.
He turned her on to Spider-Manand being a superhero and I
(02:32):
think that's a really goodfeeling and we all want to have
that internal agency and power.
And she also loves to exerciseand run and advocate and create
opportunities for children withautism throughout Northeast Ohio
.
Our second guest, alexandriaRudin, is a supervising attorney
(02:56):
at the Legal Aid Society ofCleveland and she has special
expertise in domestic violencerepresentation and she is on
several committees andassociations.
Is admitted to the SupremeCourt of Ohio, the Advisory
Committee on Domestic Violence.
The Supreme Court of OhioSubcommittee on Abuse, neglect
(03:19):
and Dependency, an officerpresidency, an officer, a board
member for the Office ofCriminal Justice and several
other statewide andcommunity-wide important
committees and she's a nationallecturer and she's also a
trainer and she's alsoco-authored Ohio's Domestic
(03:40):
Violence Law and she's receiveda lot of awards for exceptional
service in the field of familyviolence prevention and Ohio
criminal justice services.
So I am thrilled to welcomeboth of you.
Welcome Ashley and Alexandria.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Holly.
So I first want to talk and askAlexandria.
Like we talk about intimatepartner violence, try to be as
comprehensive and inclusive aspossible.
But you were saying thatdomestic violence is the term in
the state of Ohio.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
And that's based, interestingly, on the statute
and domestic violence, ourfamily or household member
relationships.
And because of the way Ohio hasconstructed all their
protection order statutes wehave so many, we have six
statewide protection orderstatutes that each addresses
(04:39):
something different oneaddresses dating violence, one
addresses juvenile, oneaddresses non-intimate partner
stalking relationships and oneaddresses family or household
members.
And then we have criminalstatutes as well.
But because we have terminated,we've made the term domestic
(05:02):
violence.
We use that Now, interestingly,other people do use intimate
partner violence, but intimatepartner violence is a bit
broader than what we use asdomestic violence, Suffice it to
say I don't think it reallymatters.
I think intimate partnerviolence is a larger term and
(05:23):
covers more, but we include thatas family or household members.
And again, when we use that asfamily or household members, we
are considering family violenceas well, not just intimate
partners.
That's why our statute isbroader and it includes that.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
So I recently was renewing my license medical
license in Florida and theyactually have mandatory domestic
violence and violence againstchildren training.
I thought that was veryinteresting.
Ashley, can you talk to us alittle bit about myths?
I mean, I think that a lot ofpeople are embarrassed if
(06:06):
they've been involved or avictim of domestic violence.
Can you just give us a littlebit about the statistics and why
?
This is something that reallywe all should be aware of and
know what our resources and ourremedies are.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Absolutely, holly.
Well, as you are probably wellaware, domestic violence does
remain a significant pervasivecrisis on a nationwide and a
statewide level.
The National Domestic ViolenceHotline, which is one of the
resources available to victims,gets a staggering 775,000 calls
(06:47):
per year calls, chats or textspeople reaching out.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Do you have that number?
We can certainly put it in theshow notes.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yes, I can get you after this, like my outline with
the stats.
Approximately one in 10 womenhave experienced physical
violence, rape or stalking by anintimate partner.
In this country, a woman isassaulted by an intimate partner
every nine seconds, and on astatewide level it's interesting
(07:18):
because the Ohio DomesticViolence Network Domestic
Violence Network, which is anagency in Columbus that does
lobbying it's a resource forvictims.
I'm sure that Alexandra can talkmore about ODSI, the High
Domestic Violence Network, butthey do every year.
So for the last 18 years,they've participated in this
(07:40):
national counts of domesticviolence incidences and other
stats about domestic violencethrough the National Network to
End Domestic Violence.
So that's an organization inWashington DC that the Ohio
Domestic Violence Networkbelongs to, and so for 18 years,
they've done these counts andso like, for example, you know,
(08:01):
according to the 18th annualreport, they collect data from
like a single day in a year Ithink it was like September 7th
of 2023.
They say you know, they pick aday each year.
We're going to see how manypeople call this day, how many
people are served in Ohio injust one day, and they do that
every year for the last 18 years, and so in 2023, you know, they
(08:22):
received 658 contacts.
That's just in one day, so thataverages more than 27 contacts
per hour.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
They served 2,445 victims, whether it be providing
transitional housing or otherresources, and the 17th annual
counts report was very similar,except they served, you know,
2,900 victims of the five-yearanniversary of the pandemic and
certainly with all the shutdowns, there was definite increases
(09:07):
in violence abuse of children,abuse of women and I know our
laws have recently changed.
Before we get into all of thatdetail, I wanted Alexandria to
tell us just a little bit aboutthe historical context of how
this has evolved and howviolence amongst strangers is
(09:27):
different than someone that youknow.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Well, I will start by saying domestic violence has
existed from the beginning oftime.
We used to have an edict inRussia in the 1600s that spelled
out how a man most effectivelybeat his wife.
He was even allowed to kill herif he did so for disciplinary
purposes.
In England we had the rule ofthumb you could beat your wife,
(09:54):
but it's with a stick less thickthan the thumb.
Then we moved into America andwhat we found in the 1800s is
let's ignore domestic violence.
Remember, this is a familymatter.
Let's leave it up to theparties to forgive and forget.
And that brought us into the20th century and suddenly we had
(10:18):
the women's movement, we hadthe civil rights movement and
out of that women began to talkand realize there were many
problems.
So they looked at the laws onthe book and we had assault laws
.
But assault?
The judicial system and the lawenforcement system treated
(10:40):
assaults between strangers verydifferently than assaults
between family or householdmembers, specifically spouses at
that point.
So if you're a spouse, you goback with your husband.
We don't want to expendresources for you.
If you're a stranger, thesepeople will not go back with
(11:02):
their assaulter, so we're gonnafocus on them.
However, as more and more womengot together from different
areas all around the country.
Really, there was adetermination that we needed to
look at domestic violence as acrime, separate and apart from
(11:22):
assault, and the only way wecould do that is to create a
statute specific to domesticviolence.
And that is exactly what we did.
So we we put we put domesticviolence, assaults and issues,
giving it a level playing field,and then we began to train on
(11:44):
it.
And of course in Ohio we havetwo aspects of the law.
We have the crime of domesticviolence and then we have civil
protection orders, which is theissue in itself.
That means a victim can callthe prosecutor.
A victim can ask that chargesbe filed.
Prosecutor has to make thatdetermination, whether there's
(12:07):
cause for it.
But a civil protection order isvictim-driven.
She goes into a courthouse, sheasks for a protection order,
for protection for herself, forher children, and then there are
several remedies that go alongwith it.
But that's sort of how thisdeveloped.
And for Ohio in 1975, thenAttorney General William Brown
(12:30):
convened a task force todetermine whether domestic
violence was epidemic in thestate and out of that Ohio's
domestic violence law was passedin 1979.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And it's taken all this time to figure out what to
do with this statute and and so,ashley, you were telling me
that in march of this year, 2025, that there was a new law that
went into effect.
Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
yes.
So, um, in march, march 20th of2025, there were actually two
there was a Senate Bill 100,which created an entire new
statute criminalizing placing atracking device or application
(13:20):
on a person's person or theirproperty without their consent
or failing to remove the same ifconsent had previously been
given and is now revoked.
And there's even presumptionsin the statute that if consent
was given, it's automaticallyrevoked.
So, if one of the parties filesfor divorce or disillusion, if
(13:41):
one of the parties goes andseeks a protection order,
disillusion, if one of theparties goes and seeks a
protection order, then consentis revoked presumptively under
the statute and you are toremove or discontinue use of
that tracking device andtracking application.
And the reason that this isvery germane is because, you
know, I don't know if we'regoing to get into.
You know, in 1984, the year Iwas born, the creation of the
(14:03):
power and control wheel,domestic violence.
You think, oh, you know, in1984, the year I was born, the
creation of the power andcontrol wheel, domestic violence
.
You think, oh, you know,getting hit in the face.
No, it's a pot of play oftactics used to gain and
maintain control over the victim, and one of those tactics
that's often used is stalking,is overreaching the boundaries
of privacy of the victim.
(14:23):
Overreaching the boundaries ofprivacy of the victim.
So the fact that we are nowcriminalizing placing a tracking
device or application on, youknow, someone's person or
property is huge.
There are some exceptions thatI think, unfortunately, courts
could interpret too broadly tokind of undercut the purpose of
this law.
But the fact that we have thislaw and we have organizations
(14:44):
like the ones that Alexandriaare part of, like Ohio Domestic
Violence Network, to be able toattempt to construe those
exceptions narrowly and be ableto enforce this, is very huge.
I think it's a huge stepforward, because stalking is
definitely one of those elementsof the power and control wheel,
and so are most of the peopledoing the stalking of women?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
are they generally people that know the woman, and
is it different if it's justsome unknown person who decides
to stalk a person?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think alexandria could speak to that, because,
yes, there there's definitely,there's a civil stalking
protection order where you don'thave to be a family or
household member, and then, um,it would be different if you're
a family or household member.
So, if you want to speak tothat, alexandria- here's what
what I've learned.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Stalking is domestic violence when it occurs between
family or household members.
When it is non family orhousehold members, which which
include spouses, former spouses,people related by blood or
marriage, people who are notliving together but who have a
child in common, and people whoare living as spouses, people
(15:54):
who are cohabiting or who havecohabited within five years.
That's the definition of thosefamilies who are covered.
Now, if you fit outside of that, you may be seeing somebody
you're not really dating.
There could be strangerstalking that would be under a
different statute, but thedefinition of stalking is going
(16:17):
to be the same no matter whichstatute you look at.
Again, I laugh as I'm talkinglike this because Ohio has a
very convoluted set of statutesand each statute addresses
potentially a different crime.
But everything came out of theof the domestic violence statute
(16:38):
.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So let's take like a bigger picture, since I you know
people are listening in alldifferent countries and states,
and since this is a pervasiveproblem of different ages,
different backgrounds, differentsocioeconomics, it's not, you
know what might be common mythsthat people have.
What are some of the basic do'sand don'ts for women or
(17:02):
children or anyone?
You know, elderly people aswell, who might be abused by
their younger family members ofdoing if you're ensconced in
some perilous situation?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
One thing I would say and this is kind of speaking a
little outside of the box.
I don't know if you guys sawlike 10 months ago I'm sure a
lot of your viewers would haveseen that this was trending all
over on social media that TikTokdid a video where they asked a
bunch of women if they wouldrather be stranded in a forest
with a wild bear or with a manand seven out of eight said that
(17:39):
they would prefer the bear.
And for a number of reasons,just because you know it was
predictable, you're either goingto get killed by the bear or
the bear is going to ignore you.
It can't be like someone youlove, hurting you, humiliating
you, degrading you, just frombased on experiences that women
have gone through with men.
It was a very popular, trendingthing and what it made me think
of today was, however you feelon the bear versus man
(18:03):
controversy, you wouldn't go upin the forest to a bear and hit
a bear with a shoe.
Don't antagonize If you're in aperilous situation.
If you're in the heat of aperilous situation, it is not
the time to take a stand.
I don't think I'm not sayingput your head down.
(18:33):
This isn't the 1950s, but youhave to come up with a plan, a
safety plan.
Do not try to takericateyourself from immediate danger
and then have time to if youknow if you're going to leave.
I mean there's and we can getinto the myths.
There's a myriad of reasons.
Women don't leave that they.
They decide that that's not thebest course of action for their
safety or their family or theirfinancial security, and that's
(18:55):
a personal choice.
But if you are going to leaveit, it needs to be a rational,
planned out situation, asopposed to antagonizing a
dangerous person in the heat ofthe peril.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, I think that's a very, very important point,
like we have information infemale only restrooms at the
hospital with, you know, 1-800numbers and resources, because
an exit safety plan has to be inplace and the time of a woman
(19:33):
exiting is the highest risk for,you know, injury and murder.
To re assault yes, is thehighest risk for injury and
murder To re assault yes, yeah,and I'm thinking years ago, one
of my physician colleagues sophysicians are educated and
generally have financialresources they're not
necessarily financiallyconstrained as some people in
other situations might be whowas being abused by her
(19:56):
physician spouse and she madeher exit plan and, of course,
didn't tell anyone, except ofcourse she told me because, um,
I am in charge of a big centerand have a lot of patients, and,
um, the plan was we can't letanyone know or cancel patients
(20:16):
or anything else, because wecan't let this abuser aware that
she's going to be going, and soit was very stealth, and so I
think that women need resourcesin order to make plans to do
that without the abuser knowingwhat.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I tell my clients is clients will come in.
They want a protection order,they want a divorce.
I only represent victims ofdomestic violence, so I'm very
limited in my practice.
But I tell them that they needto pull together all their
important papers to begin tosave money, to create a safety
(20:57):
plan, not only only withthemselves but, let's say, with
a neighbor, so if their abuseris going it's hurting them, they
can go by the door and turn onthe light or do something to
make somebody aware and have allthat information.
So if they have to leave, theyhave that ability.
(21:19):
The problem becomes when theytheir behavior is
counterintuitive they don'tleave.
They don't leave because theybelieve that they'll be killed.
If they do leave, they reallylove him.
Whatever the reason is, thenyou have a higher system, the
court court system or the lawenforcement system that would
(21:41):
say wait a second, if she werethat badly abused she would have
left.
And so that's where theeducation comes in.
It's training every system tounderstand each of the myths, to
understand why women stay, whythey go back, why they don't
leave in the beginning.
But we can't lose sight of thefact that we're here to help
(22:03):
them and we need to keep movingthem forward.
And that means the safetyplanning, that means being there
.
It takes a woman usually sevento nine times to get out of a
bad situation.
So if I were training lawyers Iwould say be there for them the
next time, because the nexttime they could get out.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
What about just training for the non-lawyer?
You know, the non-social worker, the non-law enforcement person
, just someone in the community,like maybe someone listening,
who is a church member or is,you know, part of a community
group or a mom's group?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
For a mom's group, for a church group, and then,
ashley, you'll be able to talkabout that as well.
But I would explain the myths.
If it were me, I would explainwhy women leave, why they stay.
If it were me, I would explainwhy women leave, why they stay,
and what to look for in thebatterer, in the victim, how
they respond.
That's what I would do.
(23:05):
The other thing I would do istalk a little bit about not just
the survivor but their childrenand different ways to look at
their children.
One thing Ohio has that wentinto effect is a safe at home.
It's addressed confidentiality.
If you are a victim of domesticviolence, stalking, human
(23:27):
trafficking, dating violence andyou move to a place where your
abuser does not know where youlive, you can contact the Ohio
Secretary of State's office andyou will be given, if you follow
the application, you will begiven a PO box.
(23:48):
That PO box will be used on allpublic documents and then the
Secretary of State will sendthose documents, whatever it
could be service of papers, itcould be any kind of mail Then
it will be sent to the victimfrom the Secretary of State's
office.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Oh, that's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I didn't know that Most states in the United States
have it.
I don't know around the worldit could be Again.
So much that's happened in theUnited States is moving around
the world Family justice centers, strangulation, addressing the
issue of strangulation so it maybe that other countries do have
(24:27):
something like that.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I don't know.
So we'll definitely want thatnumber for at least Ohio
Secretary of State to put in ourshow notes of state to put in
our show notes and also any kindof shelters, any, you know 24-7
hotlines.
You know that people can reachout to and get that information.
Why is strangulation lawsdifferent than just any other
(24:52):
physical violence law?
That's that seems interesting,or different.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
As a lawyer.
every time a client said myhusband choked me, I would write
it down and call it domesticviolence and never think
something anything else about itand never look at the danger it
poses, because victims can bekilled by strangulation even
(25:19):
when there are no visibleinjuries, when there's petechiae
and it should be that everyonewho encounters a woman who says
they've been choked, strangledis what we would say, but every
time a victim says that weshould advise them to seek
medical attention and we need tolook at strangulation as the
(25:43):
last warning shot beforefemicide.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And if femicide is the woman being killed?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yes, and then any comments about other situations,
like I have women in mypractice who have daughters who
are like maybe of age, butthey're still young, but they're
over age 18 and they're inthese bad dating situations,
abusive situations.
And I also have patients whohave elderly relatives and
(26:18):
they're not happy with howsomeone else is treating that
elderly person, you know,because if they die then there's
inheritance or there's othermoney or there's some other
motivation.
Are those all under domesticviolence as well, or not?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
If let's say, I abuse my daughter or my daughter
abuses me, that's how you wouldwant to.
My daughter abuses me?
Yes, that is domestic violencebecause we have a family or
household relationship.
She was my child, so, yes, thatis covered.
(26:56):
Children are covered as well.
Dating partners are covered nowunder a recently enacted
statute.
So we have all that, and thething is, what we need to do is
we need to change the paradigm.
We need to begin to talk aboutdomestic violence, dating
(27:16):
violence, creating healthyrelationships when children are
young.
The other piece is we need tomake significant movement with
our juvenile courts, becausesomething I learned that I
fought because I said, ah, itcan't be true.
It's that almost everyperpetrator was a victim.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Oh, really.
So it's like a cycle ofviolence.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It is such a cycle and the goal is how do we break
that cycle of violence?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, that was one of the things that was really
brought home to me in theeducation that I was doing for
my continuing medical education.
And, you know, in order to be,you know, completely looking at
all aspects, even though weobviously know, biologically men
are generally bigger andstronger and can physically
overtake women, um, in the vastmajority of the situations,
(28:09):
there probably are somesituations where males are
victims of domestic violence,are victims of domestic violence
, and I would think that wouldbe even harder on you know, to
try to get help for that as aman.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yes, I think it's harder to seek the resources
they may need, but I stillbelieve.
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but Ibelieve that domestic violence
is a crime against women.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Definitely, strangulation is a crime, sure,
sure, but there's also same-sexrelationships and absolutely you
know parent child orstep-parent child, you know, and
I think what does get lost isthe same sex.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
You know where talk I ?
When I talk, I generally usedisclaimers that say I speak in
terms of the woman being theabused, the male being the
perpetrator.
I recognize that men can beabused and I recognize that the
same dynamics occur between theLGBTQ community.
(29:18):
So I recognize that.
But it's very hard when you'retraining or talking.
Just talk in terms of he, sheor they.
It doesn't follow as easily forme.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
No, I understand, I just wanna make anyone listening
that, if anyone is-.
We don't wanna minimize thatAbused in perilous situations,
you know that's obviously notacceptable.
And when a woman or a personwho's abused fights back for
their own, um personal safety, Imean what happens if they're,
(29:55):
you know, if they kill theirabuser?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
in terms of that whole aspect, there is a
battered women's syndromedefense and then there's also
just general self-defense.
I mean with battered women'ssyndrome defense my
understanding is that doesn'teven have to be in the heat of
the moment.
With self-defense, you use thewhen you're defending yourself.
(30:19):
The standard is it has to bereasonable for the force that's
exerted, as you, for like,example, if someone just I don't
know slaps me across the facelike, and then they back down, I
can't just go grab my gun andshoot him and be like, well, my
husband was trying to kill me,like, yes, he committed domestic
violence by slapping me acrossthe face, but that wasn't enough
force for me to go shoot him inthe head and say it was just
(30:42):
basic self-defense.
But with battered women,syndrome defense, um, and that's
a very limited exception.
I'm not even sure it'srecognized in Ohio.
I haven't thought about itsince law school but I remember,
um, you know, if you're.
I mean, like she said, it'susually nine, seven to nine
incidences before you leave.
I mean, some women aresubjected to severe malignant
(31:05):
abuse, day after day after dayafter day, for, you know, 20
years.
And if they kill their abuser,even if it's not in the direct
heat of the moment, even if itwas more excessive than a
general self-defense force, theycan utilize that to mitigate or
be exonerated.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yes, and now they're looking at calling it.
They haven't changed thestatute.
There is a full statute.
Instead of the battered women'ssyndrome defense, it's the
battered women's syndromedefense, it's the battered
women's experiences.
But I want to go one stepfurther and talk about the, the
medical community and what theycan do.
Yes, that's every time asurvivor comes in, even if they
(31:49):
say I fell over a fence or Iknocked myself in the eye, under
Ohio law they have anobligation to note in that
patient's records known orsuspected abuse.
That also means that I can saymy patient's injuries are
(32:13):
inconsistent with what thatvictim says.
I suspect violence perpetrated,even if they don't say it.
So that creates a record.
So in the event he kills her orshe kills him, then that
hopefully will be able to comeout and show that maybe she was
(32:38):
a survivor, a victim of domesticviolence.
That's really important to beable to bring up, and so we
depend on the medical community.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well, my perspective and we do have a lot of
physicians and nurses who listento our podcast, because we do
have some CME podcasts For anyof you physicians from season
one where you can listen and getfree CME.
This is not one today, but Iteach my residents and fellows
in the field of women's health,which I specialize in, that when
(33:10):
we see a woman and theirpartner insist on physically
being present for the whole exam, that sets off all sorts of
alarms and we pretty much have apolicy where we say part of the
time, especially the exam part,we don't allow that person to
be in the room, and that's whensometimes things are discovered.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
And you also ask women because in 1994, that's
what we had put in the statutethat medical professionals will
ask.
You know that domestic violenceis very dangerous and they
should be asking and separatingthe parties and, as part of that
, what's come out of that is areyou safe in your home?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yes, yes, and we do have nurses generally routinely
ask those questions andcertainly I think emergency room
personnel that sees fracturesand lacerations will ask those
questions.
When my middle son graduatedfrom high school and we were
having this graduation party Iwas filming holding a camcorder
(34:18):
and a bee bit me in the ear andso I went like this to get the
bee and I just like lacerated mywhole forehead and everybody
was having so much fun at theparty I had to like drive myself
to the emergency room to go getstitches.
And so like they immediatelywere thinking like you know,
asking me questions about that,and I said no, it's just my own,
(34:39):
my own idiocy.
And then they said don't letthe door hit you on the way out.
Like OK, gee, thanks.
Like I was clumsy, but itreally.
You know, domestic violence isvery serious, it can be very
deadly, it's very pervasive.
We've only just touched on justsome of the topics.
We have so much more to go intoabout civil and criminal in the
(35:02):
future, and you know what aboutwith children and custody, and
there's so many more issues thatwe can get into and maybe we
should have you ladies back onanother episode.
I just wanted to give you eacha chance to give a little
wrap-up statement and anythingwhere people can contact you, or
(35:23):
resources or websites oranything else that you would
like to to say.
I'll start with you, ashley.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yes, so there are so many more facets.
We didn't get into the otherchange to the law that came into
effect on March 20th, so maybewe can do another episode where
we touch on that, because someof the penalties for third-time
offenders were enhanced,especially for the victim being
pregnant or the fetus beingharmed.
(35:52):
So that's another positive stepin the right direction.
But we have ways to go to getto where we need to be to start
to ameliorate this undeniablecrisis, and I would just say
that the safety plan is key.
Getting your resources in orderand learning about government
(36:14):
assistance.
That's something that most womenprobably have never seen in
their life, probably neverthought about, but you know when
you're leaving.
You know in 99% of cases that'slike universal statistics on
all these domestic violencewebsites there's financial abuse
.
So the woman, even if she had acareer, that she left to stay
home with the kids, even if shehas a degree, even if she is
(36:36):
working, you know sometimes theresources are not provided to
her, they're not given, so she'sliterally left with nothing.
So just learning how tonavigate all that prior to
exiting to make your situationmore sustainable for yourself
and your children and just besafe, and I think Alexandra will
(36:57):
be able to provide a lot of theimmediate resources to contact.
But I would just say, the moreyou can plan in advance, before
you extricate yourself from thesituation, the better off you'll
be and the safer you'll be whenyou do leave and I would
encourage all of our listeners.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
If you didn't hear the podcast that I did with an
attorney who's an expert indomestic law, ava Saulnier, on
divorce and getting yourfinancial assets and papers and
all of that in order, that's anexcellent one to go back to
listen to and she's like a newmom now.
(37:35):
That's exciting listen to andshe's like a new mom now.
That's exciting.
So, alexandria, let's have yourfinal wrap-up points and where
people can contact you if theymight need your services.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Well, I want to start by saying that in the area of
domestic violence, ohio has Ohiohas one of the better statutes.
The problem is not as much ouris not our statute, it's the
enforcement of our statute bythe professionals who have to
(38:05):
enforce it.
That's where we have thebiggest problem.
Additionally, one of the two ofthe issues that really need to
come up is creating expertwitnesses to come to court to
explain domestic violence tocourt systems before they award
custody and, as Ashley talkedabout, we really need to focus.
(38:27):
You mentioned financial abuse.
We don't have in our state.
There are only a few states thathave it coercive, controlling
behavior codified in their laws.
I know the UK has it.
I can't remember othercountries have it.
We don't.
Now every victim, at least inthe United States and probably
(38:48):
around the world.
There are law offices forlow-income clients, like in the
United States.
We have the Legal ServicesCorporation and we have various
legal aids that address domesticviolence.
We have each state has acoalition, a statewide coalition
(39:12):
.
Ours is the Ohio DomesticViolence Network and, as we've
trained medical professionalsand forensic nurses about
domestic violence andstrangulation, they are situated
in various hospitals.
But the last thing I wanted tosay is victims need to know they
(39:34):
are not alone.
And if you are not a victim butyou have somebody in your
family, the biggest thing is bethere, even if it becomes
frustrating because they go back, because you never know that
the next time you open yourheart to them they won't get out
, and if you fail to open yourheart they could be dead.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Well, thank you so much, Ashley and Alexandria, for
joining me on this specialSpeaking of Women's Health
podcast on domestic violence.
Please check our show notes forthese resources and thank you
to our listeners for tuning into Speaking of Women's Health,
(40:19):
and we're so grateful for yoursupport and we hope that you'll
support the podcast, share itwith others, leave us a
five-star rating and to catchall the latest from Speaking of
Women's Health, please subscribe.
Hit the subscribe or followbutton on Apple Podcasts Spotify
TuneIn wherever you listen soyou won't miss any future
(40:40):
episodes.
Thanks for listening.
Remember, be strong, be healthyand be in charge.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
We agree.
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