November 12, 2025 • 41 mins
When family dynamics break down, who protects the bond between grandparents and grandchildren? Attorney Eva Saulnier returns to the Speaking of Women's Health Podcast to tackle this often-overlooked but emotionally charged area of family law.
Most grandparents are shocked to discover they have limited legal standing regarding their grandchildren. As Saulnier explains to Host Dr. Holly Thacker, courts maintain a strong preference for parental rights, even when those parents aren't perfect.
Whether you're concerned about your own grandchildren or supporting someone facing these difficult circumstances, this episode provides essential insights into the complex intersection of family bonds and legal rights.
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Episode Transcript
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Holly L. Thacker, MD (00:06):
Welcome to the Speaking of Women's Health
podcast.
I'm your host, dr Holly Thacker, and I am back in the Sunflower
House for a new edition of thispodcast, and I am so thrilled
to have back in the SunflowerHouse a good friend and a prior
(00:27):
guest, attorney, ava Saulnier.
She joined us in season one totalk about family law, including
tips on working with anattorney during divorce and
custody matters, and usually, ofcourse, we always like to talk
about uplifting things to bestrong, be healthy and be in
(00:48):
charge, but things likeend-of-life care, domestic
violence, which we've tackled inseason three, as well as
divorce, are things that arepart of life and it's important
to be knowledgeable.
And so she is back to discusssomething that I found
fascinating.
I read what she was writing onLinkedIn and, as a grandmother
(01:13):
of five, I was very interestedin the topic of grandparent
custody rights and she wrote athree-piece article series
titled custody rights, and shewrote a three-piece article
series titled when GrandparentsStep In Legal Options for
Visitation and or Custody in theState of Ohio, and I know we
(01:34):
have listeners from around theworld, but we'll be focusing on
Ohio law, but I'm sure there's alot of spring points that will
be great food for thought forall of our listeners.
Ava is advancing her practiceand she's now an attorney in the
KJK's family law practice, andshe represents individuals and
(01:56):
families in all aspects ofdomestic relations, which does
include divorce, disillusionment, property division, support
matters and custody matters.
And she's quite talented inthat she holds law degrees from
both the United States, being aCase Western Reserve graduate of
(02:17):
the School of Law as well as alaw degree from France.
Both she and her husband,douglas, are duly trained and
their families expanded.
Congratulations, ava, andwelcome back to our podcast,
thank you.
Eva Saulnier (02:32):
Thank you so much, holly.
I'm glad to be back.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (02:36):
And so tell us, like this topic, I
thought it was just not evenanything that grandparents had
anything to do with.
In fact, during my severalyears of practice in specialized
women's health, I have listenedto many women in my office very
distressed about grandchildren.
If their children are not theiradult, children might have drug
(03:01):
abuse problems or abandonmentissues or other unsafe
situations, and I really justthought that a grandparent
really didn't have any type ofrights at all.
So apparently I'm wrong.
Eva Saulnier (03:15):
Yeah, there are some rights.
It is, and we'll delve into ita bit more, but it is not easy
to obtain necessarily.
But there are ways of doingthat when the situation calls
for it, really.
And so I started thinking aboutthis because I'm expecting and
(03:37):
not that I, you know, I don'tthink we'll have any issue with
the grandparents.
They'll be able to see thegrandbaby, obviously, but but
that, you know, that kind ofmade me think a little bit about
that, because it is there's nota whole lot of information out
there about this topic, so yeah,and I do think that I know I
(03:58):
can't speak for Europeanpractices, but it would be
interesting for your perspectiveon that.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (04:03):
But it does seem like in American
culture and law that parentalrights are really pretty strong
and that the thought is thateven a parent that's maybe not
the best parent is still betterfor the child than, you know,
(04:26):
being the ward of the state orthe county.
Eva Saulnier (04:30):
Do you have?
Holly L. Thacker, MD (04:30):
some comments or perspectives on that
, just historically or legally.
Eva Saulnier (04:35):
I think the school of thought of the courts in
general is that they try tointervene as little as possible
in the private realms of afamily or anything that's
private.
So they'll intervene and takecustody from a parent and give
it to someone else only ifthere's really a big situation
(04:59):
that calls for it.
So, you know, sometimes I getclients even in in between
parents that will tell me oh,it's, it's horrible.
My kids, you know, with him orher they eat McDonald's every
day.
And I'm like I understand thatthis is not the best and you, dr
Thacker, I'm sure will behorrified, but unfortunately the
(05:21):
court is not gonna, it's notgonna be enough to take custody
unless there's real proof thatthe child is malnourished or
things of that nature.
But if I don't have evidence Ican't really help them.
So yeah, I usually sayunfortunately the standard is
(05:43):
not A+.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (05:45):
No, that's not, it's C minus D.
Yeah, I usually say,unfortunately, the standard is
not A plus.
No, that's not, it's C minus DD.
I think that's a good way tolook at it and I was like
mortified the other day when Ifound out that my granddaughter
Artemis had had a fast foodhamburger.
I'm like, you're taking her tothis place and I realized, well,
I got to zip my lips becauseI'm not the parent heard of this
(06:05):
place and I realized, well, Igot to zip my lips because I'm
not the parent, I'm thegrandparent, even though
sometimes they get on me forwhat my husband and I offer,
although it can be really good.
Like she accompanied us to theoyster bar the other day.
Eva Saulnier (06:18):
And she has the best taste she does.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (06:21):
She gets surf and turf eggs, hollandaise
which is filet and lobster.
But that is the point.
I'm sure that divorcing parentshave all sorts of complaints
about screen time or staying uplate at night, or whether
they're using sunscreen or not.
Speaking of that, Artemis saysMimi, why does my dad make me
(06:44):
look like a ghost?
He puts all this on my face,and so it's really.
The parents are the primaryones, and I guess when the
parents are divorced orseparated, that's the parent
who's got the child at that time.
They're in charge, right?
Or does the court come downsaying well, this has to be
agreed upon in terms of theparenting aspects?
Eva Saulnier (07:07):
I mean they will.
You know, for example, thecourt will take into
consideration all of that.
It's just, it's going to be abalance act.
I would say so if you have aparent that will let the
children just play video gamesall the time instead of actually
doing homework, perhaps theperson is not going to lose
(07:30):
custody.
But perhaps during the schoolyear the court is going to be
like, ok, maybe during theschool year the children are
going to be with the otherparents so they can focus on
schoolwork a bit more, have sometime to really focus on school
work a bit more, have some timeto really focus on their, on
their work, and then during thesummer they'll they'll be with
(07:52):
the other parent a bit more,because clearly the rules are
not the same.
So that might be the solutionto to that, for example.
But custody, which is decisionmaking power, decision-making
power that's really hard to betaken away.
So, yeah, there's a differencebetween visitation and custody
(08:14):
and that people usually kind ofget those confused.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (08:18):
Visitation and custody.
Right, right, those are veryimportant topics.
I think that when you've been aparent, you're just so used to
being in that parenting role,Even once your child, of course,
is completely emancipated andis an adult, even grown and have
their own family.
So I'm sure there's always alot of natural tension and
(08:41):
families between thegrandparents who, well, I raised
you just fine, you know look atyou, and then the younger
generation is looking at theseolder people.
Well, you're just so out oftouch and, like you know, I
think it's kind of crazy, thesemillennials with their sleep
obsessions, and they're readingthese same apps about parenting
(09:01):
and these sleep sacks, which Ithink is almost bordering on
abuse, because I'm all forfreedom of the arms and legs,
but it's like that's what theywant and apparently that's what
they do and there's a lot ofgenerational differences.
Eva Saulnier (09:15):
Yes, those sleep sacks.
I got so many of them, so manydifferent ones, and I don't.
I don't know which one, becauseyou know everyone tells you
that's what you have to get.
They look so complicated so I'mlike I hope just that the nurse
(09:38):
will teach me how to use that,because this looks and I have a
higher degree.
But wow, it's just really hardto figure out.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (09:43):
Yeah, so we'll see figure out.
Yeah, it's like a straightjacket.
But I'm sure a lot of just youknow your own instincts and you
spending time with your childand understanding kind of what
their needs were.
When my first son was born,they said, oh, has to sleep on
the stomach because that'sbetter for them, that less
sudden infant death.
(10:03):
And I'm like Stetson onlywanted to sleep on his back.
And then by the time Emersonwas born a year and a half later
, oh no, they had the evidenceyou had to sleep on your back.
Well, he would cry and he wasfussy and I'm like I'm just
going to listen to what I thinkis my instinct as a mother,
what's best for my child.
And so I do think that that'sso important for society and the
(10:26):
law and the extended family toreally respect the parents.
It's their ultimateresponsibility.
But there are obviously timeswhen grandparents or aunts or
uncles or other relatives mightfeel the need to intervene for
that child's safety or even justto seek visitation with their
(10:47):
grandchildren.
So when married parents decideto terminate their marriage or
legally separate, how do thegrandparents fare in that
situation?
Eva Saulnier (11:01):
Yeah, so in the run-of-the-mill divorce,
typically we're not going tohave grandparents seek
visitation, necessarily becausethe parents are going to make
sure that their parents see thegrandchildren on their time.
But sometimes there's an addedlayer.
(11:22):
So one of the parents, there'ssome substance abuse, there's
some incarceration, or they'reestranged with their kids and it
was really the other spousethat was arranging visits and
then they're divorcing, and soyou're like oh, I'm not going to
see my grandkids, and what dowe do?
(11:42):
Because unfortunately, I'm notspeaking with my children
anymore, but I like to see thegrandkids.
So in those cases, uh, that'swhen, um, we have people that
come in and kind of ask us whatthey can do, um, and so you can
seek visitation, um, and sothere's going to be a whole
(12:03):
investigation, a whole process.
It's pretty long, but at the end, if it's determined that it's
in the best interest of thechildren, then you can get some
court-ordered time where youknow for sure you're going to be
able to see your grandkids andyou know they have a very vital
(12:24):
role.
I think grandparents have avital role in their
grandchildren's lives, so it'svery, very much important.
I didn't have the joy to havegrandparents, so I'm very
excited to have a child and haveyou know, see kind of the bond
that you can have betweengrandparents and grandkids.
(12:45):
I think that's just wonderful.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (12:48):
Yeah, I think it's just absolutely
fabulous and I think both sidesof your family are going to away
when the children orgrandchildren are obviously
still minors.
I mean, that would be justterrible if you're on the side
(13:20):
of the family that you know thechild, the adult child, passed
away and then you feel like youdon't have any access to ever
seeing the grandchildren.
Eva Saulnier (13:28):
Yeah, so that's the second situation where Ohio
has recognized a path for agrandparent to seek visitation.
So if in those circumstances,if you know your son, your
daughter has unfortunatelypassed away, the other parent is
not letting you see thegrandkids, you can seek
(13:50):
visitation through the courts.
And so in the third.
So there's three situationswhere you can seek visitation so
during a divorce of the parents, death of one parent, or in
juvenile court.
So whenever a child is born ofan unmarried woman those
(14:11):
statutes are very old-fashionedin juvenile court, but that's
how it's called and so in thosesituations you can seek
visitation.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (14:21):
Now I understand from reading some of
your articles and since I'm justas a boy mom, so my biological
children are all males, so theywouldn't be the ones giving
birth.
It's of course you know thewomen, the woman that they're
with, there's not.
There's not a good edge, though, for the paternal side, correct
(14:42):
, where there is an automaticedge of the maternal grandparent
.
Eva Saulnier (14:47):
So the maternal grandparents are going to be
able to file very fast becauseof course we know that the
paternal grandparents areassociated with the mom, who's
the mom For paternalgrandparents.
You're going to have toestablish the paternity first,
(15:07):
which isn't super hard, you knowyou just get a test, a
paternity test.
but you need to go through thatprocess of having the court
issue an order for paternitytest, get the paternity test,
pay for it and then, if you canprove all that, then you can
(15:28):
seek a visitation.
So it's just going to add acouple more months of the
process which is already longenough and frustrating enough.
So yeah, that's the, that's theonly downside.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (15:42):
And what if the father claims that that's
his child, even though he's notmarried?
Does that speed it up at all?
Eva Saulnier (15:51):
So if you're not if you're on the birth
certificate.
If your name is on the birthcertificate, that kind of gives
you a little, a little edge.
You'll have to do a testeventually, unless, I mean, if
it's contested.
If it's not contested, thenyou're not going to have to do
that.
So being on the birthcertificate is a very good idea
(16:13):
if you're not married.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (16:15):
But what if you're in the situation I
have a friend whose daughter isexpecting a baby and is not
married, but the father of thechild has been verbally abusive
and she doesn't think she wantsa relationship with them.
So in those cases, is it betterthat the woman not put the
father's name on the birthcertificate or does it not
matter if he demands a paternitytest and wants to be involved
(16:37):
in the child's life?
Eva Saulnier (16:39):
He'll.
It's just going to make hislife a little bit harder at
first.
If he's not on the birthcertificate, it's not her
responsibility to do it, it'shis.
So so you know, if she doesn'twant to do those extra steps,
she shouldn't.
I mean, you know, um he's, ifhe wants to seek custody, he'll
(17:00):
have to go through those steps.
Um get his name added um youknow, prove that he's the father
, and then he can try and seekcustody or visitation rights.
Establish his rights.
He'll have to file becausethey're not married.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (17:19):
Wow, so much.
Well, you've been listening tothe Speaking of Women's Health
podcast and I'm your host, drHolly Thacker, talking to an
attorney in family law, dr AvaSaulnier, who's expanding her
family, and we're talking aboutgrandparents' rights in terms of
in the law in the state of Ohioand the cases that I've heard
(17:42):
about.
As a physician dealing with mydistressed midlife patients is
what about the cases of abusedor neglected dependent children?
What are the grandparents'legal options in these
situations when they really fearfor the safety of their
grandchild but they don't havecustody?
Eva Saulnier (18:04):
Yeah, so when a situation falls into that
category we kind of fall into alittle niche of the law where
the agency is probably going tobe involved.
So social workers are going tobe involved.
In Cuyahoga County it's theDivision of Children and Family
(18:24):
Services, home, dcfs, and sothey have their own little
bubble.
There's not really a set pathwritten in black and white for a
grandparent, so it's morelikely going to be on a
(18:46):
case-by-case basis where youknow the people in charge, the
social workers, the magistratethey're going to.
Just the priority is to put thechildren in a safe place.
So it might be thegrandparents' home, it might be
a foster home, it depends on thecase.
But they'll definitely reachout to all of the relatives to
(19:12):
see there's sort of a priorityof the blood first Is it.
Yeah, there's a priority ofcloser to the family and then
you can expand.
Foster homes are going to bethe last, really the last,
solution.
They try to not place kids.
(19:34):
If they can have a familymember that can do it and he's
competent to take care of thekids.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (19:42):
Oh, that's good to hear, because I've just
heard at least you know stories, people telling me oh no, went
to the foster home, but we werethe great aunt or the great
uncle and have resources andwe're wanting to take care of
these children, like in the caseof you know, both parents being
incarcerated or or deceased.
you know one thing, which I'msure we could probably do a
whole other podcast on um interms of the whole assisted
(20:05):
reproductive technology and howthere's surrogacies and you know
donated eggs and you knowthere's the child that was
conceived with a third person'smitochondria you know the mother
and the father and then anothermitochondria in a surrogate.
And can you comment a littlebit about those rules, like if
(20:26):
you had a surrogate grandchildthat was biologically related to
you but wasn't being raised byum, your biological adult child,
do you have any rights to that?
Eva Saulnier (20:39):
child.
That really adds a lot oflayers and I don't think that
the court or the law has caughtup on the scientific
achievements that we can.
You know what we can donowadays, so there's not a whole
lot of case law on this.
But mainly what is going tocontrol is the surrogacy
(21:03):
agreement or you know, whateveragreement is being signed or
contract is being signed at thefacility.
So you really have to payattention to the terms that are
in there, because it's going todefine who has custody, who has
rights, who has parental rights,who doesn't.
(21:24):
So usually the courts are goingto look at those contracts very
closely because that's theeasiest way of doing this.
Otherwise it's just kind ofmayhem.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (21:37):
Right, and doesn't it possibly depend on
what county in the state of Ohiothat you're in?
Eva Saulnier (21:44):
Yeah, there's just not controlling law yet, so I
don't believe that there's awhole lot of.
So I don't believe that there'sa whole lot of Ohio Supreme
Court laws yet or precedent onall of those cases.
So it will depend until it goesup, until there's an appeal and
(22:12):
you get a Supreme Court case.
Then it kind of depends on allcounties.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (22:13):
Even within the same same court you
can have different rulingsdepending on your hearing
officer, um so well, I wouldassume that most egg donors and
most sperm donors, as well asthe surrogate gestational
carriers, probably sign away alltheir rights, generally
speaking.
So if they've signed away alltheir rights, I wouldn't think,
secondarily, that grandparentswould probably not have a leg to
(22:35):
stand on.
And I think a lot of people findout these things later, when
they've done, you know, theirrecreational genetic testing,
and then they find out they haveblood relatives they never knew
about.
That's a whole other discussion.
Eva Saulnier (22:51):
But one thing I would.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (22:52):
I would say that I just learned recently
from my PhD geneticist, sonStetson is he was telling me
that the paternal grandparentshave the genetic edge because
there's less assortative changesin the male gamete than the
female.
And then if you're a paternalgrandmother like I I am of
granddaughters then you have themost edge out of all four of
(23:13):
the grandparents because yourson gave that X chromosome to
the daughter.
Eva Saulnier (23:19):
So there's that.
I don't know that that has anyeffects in the law.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (23:23):
But if they're going straight on blood
there's a little bit moregenetic similarity.
Eva Saulnier (23:29):
Maybe I'll try that argument one day.
Yes, we'll see if that works,if that works.
Yeah.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (23:35):
Yeah, oh my.
So let's talk about custody.
When would a grandparent needto step in and try to seek
custody of their grandchildren?
Eva Saulnier (23:45):
Yeah, so custody is going to be decision-making
powers, so all of thosedecisions that are big decisions
for the kids, which is schooldecisions, medical decisions,
extracurriculars, all of thatgood stuff.
So that's kind of an addedlayer than just visitation
(24:09):
rights where it's just time withthe kids.
Than just visitation rightswhere it's just, you know, time
with the kids.
Um, so you're gonna want thatif really there's a big issue
with the parents, they are notable to support, um, the, your
grandkids, their kids, um, andso you are doing this out of
(24:30):
love, not necessarily obligation, but you know that you need to
step in for the kids.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (24:37):
So could that be in like a situation like
of homeless?
I know that years ago, when Iserved on the school board, we
actually, of course, in thestate of Ohio, there's law and
we had policy for how you dealwith students that are homeless
for how you deal with studentsthat are homeless.
Eva Saulnier (24:53):
Yeah, yeah, that would be.
You know, inability to supportfinancially is also would be
something that could qualify, soyeah.
So if you're seeking custodythrough the court, the first
step is that you're going tohave to prove unsuitability or
that the parents are unfit tocare for the kids.
(25:16):
So that's gonna be the firststep.
You may have a full trial onthat first and then if the court
finds that the parents or theparent there can probably have
only one sometimes is unfit,then you go and do kind of the
more traditional trial, which isgoing to be about the best
(25:39):
interests of the children.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (25:42):
Are there times when the remaining parent
doesn't want the children orit's amicable and they want to
give up the custody.
Does that make it easier?
Eva Saulnier (25:51):
Very much, very much.
So it it's.
It's pretty rare, but it doeshappen.
Yeah, um, it does happen.
And so if a parent wants togive up his or her parental
rights, the court it will accept.
You know, the court is notgoing to go against someone's
wishes, um, so you can just inthat that case it's fairly easy.
(26:14):
You just kind of draw up anagreement and then get that
signed by the court.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (26:21):
So how does a grandparent go about
seeking legal custody of thegrandchildren?
Eva Saulnier (26:27):
So you file a motion in the court for custody,
Then there's going to be kindof all of the usual in my world
people that are going to comeinto play.
So you might have a guardian adlitem, which is typically an
attorney that is trained andwill do an investigation we
(26:51):
might get and that guardian adlitem is like the child's own
attorney.
Yeah, sort of I think.
Yeah, it's the person that has.
It's the person that will writea report to the court and state
what they think is in thechild's best interest.
So they'll talk with the schoolteachers, with the family
(27:14):
relatives.
They'll go to each parent'shouse and see what the house
looks like, how they interactwith each parent, with the
grandparents too.
Then in that case you're goingto have a visit of the
grandparents.
I'm sure in most cases, youknow the grandparents' health is
(27:35):
going to be in play too,because we need to make sure, if
they're older, we need to makesure that they are able to take
care of the kids in terms oftheir health as well.
So there's just a whole lot offactors that come into play.
So that's why it takes so long,because there needs to be a lot
(27:55):
of data for the courts to beable to make a ruling.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (28:00):
Is there typically social workers and
child psychologists or folkslike that involved?
Eva Saulnier (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, we try to have different so there can
be a child psychologist thatwill testify in court, but that
won't be necessarily the thetreating psychologist for the
children, because we try to kindof let them have their own
(28:27):
space and so that the kids knowthat they can say things that
won't end up in a reportsomewhere they need to have
their safe bubble that won't bebreached.
So then we kind of duplicatethe amount of people that are
involved, but it's kind of totry to protect them.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (28:48):
So talk to us about the difference between
temporary custody through apower of attorney and temporary
custody through a caretakerauthorization affidavit.
Eva Saulnier (28:59):
Yeah, so those can be done by agreement from the
parents.
The power of attorney.
Custodial parents or bothcustodial parents can sign that
to the grandparents if theythink.
Usually it's in a situationwhere the kids are already
(29:19):
living with the grandparents.
The parents are not necessarilydoing well, they have their own
issues.
Parents take care of the kidsand the grandparents need to
have some sort of document thatgive them the power to make
(29:39):
decisions, because they need toenroll the kids in school, they
need to take them to thehospitals and make decisions.
You know all of that.
So you can sign a power ofattorney after david's uh kind
of granting that authority tomake decisions on a temporary
basis.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (30:00):
Is that a good thing to do, Like there's
been times that I've watched mygrandchildren, you know, once
when my son and his wife wereout of the country vacationing
and other shorter periods oftime.
But you know, I just rememberwhen my sister was a little girl
and broke her arm and theneighborhood parent took her
into the emergency room eventhough she was in distress and
(30:22):
her arm was visibly needing tobe set because it was completely
deformed, the hospital wouldn'tdo anything because there
wasn't anybody who had legalauthority to even authorize.
I mean, it wasn'tlife-threatening, but it was
still an emergency, but notlife-threatening.
Eva Saulnier (30:40):
Yeah, that could be a good, that could be a good
idea to do that.
So you have to kind of get itsigned every single time.
So it can be a little hassle toget that done and then kind of.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (30:55):
And my one son said oh, we don't really
need this, because if somethinghappens and you take them to the
emergency room, you can justget us on the phone.
Eva Saulnier (31:03):
Well, sometimes you can't always get people on
the phone, you know we do livein a world where it is much
easier to get a hold of someone,but sometimes you can't.
I would imagine that if it's alife-threatening situation, the
hospital would act at some point.
Right yeah, if it'slife-threatening.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (31:27):
The problem is when it's not exactly
life-threatening, but it mightbe still painful and
uncomfortable.
So that's why I usually like atleast something written down
and all the insuranceinformation and all of that and
obviously parents aren'tgranting you complete authority
indefinitely, but for whateverthat period of time is, For a
small period of time, Time right.
And what about legal custodythrough the parents' agreement?
Eva Saulnier (31:53):
I'll just talk about the caretaker one, because
that's to say, um, just thecaretaker authorization
affidavit is when you can't geta hold of the parents.
You are the grandparent, yourgrandchild is living with you.
You don't know where theparents are.
It happens, yeah, like they'vejust gone away, they're just
(32:13):
gone, and so in.
So in that situation you need apaper that gives you rights.
So you'll fill that out andthen file it with the court, and
so then you get a court orderthat you can take decisions.
It's only, you know, if one ofthe parents shows up again and
contests that, then it kind ofreverses right away.
(32:35):
So that's why we say it'stemporary, because it's as soon
as it's contested, then therights go back to the parents.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (32:46):
Like if the parent was kidnapped and
then all of a sudden they werefree.
Yeah, I guess.
Eva Saulnier (32:51):
Anything's possible.
But yeah, so that's thecaretaker authorization
affidavit, and then you know,the parents can also just agree
and enter into an agreement withthe grandparents to grant them
temporary custody.
(33:12):
It's possible.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (33:13):
I haven't seen that yet, but it's possible
I haven't seen that yet, butit's possible really, even like
in this global world, like whatif the parent had business and
they had to be out of thecountry and they didn't want to
take their child, for whateverreason, and they wanted their
child in the same I don't knowschool district or environment?
Eva Saulnier (33:32):
yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, in those cases,
grandparents' rights in generalis extremely, fairly rare.
I would say it's not so.
I haven't yet seen thatsituation, but I might.
It's very much possible, yeah.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (33:51):
So let's discuss the legal processes for
grandparents who want topetition the court for legal
custody.
I read in your article that toovercome a parent's
constitutional right to custody,a grandparent seems like they
have a pretty high heel decline.
They have to prove in court theparent is unsuitable.
And what does that mean for aparent to be legally unfit to be
(34:13):
a parent?
Eva Saulnier (34:13):
And what does that mean for a parent to be legally
unfit to be a parent?
Yeah, I think we touched alittle bit on that earlier, but
that was my example of themeating McDonald's every day.
That's not.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (34:24):
That's not being unfit.
You can take them for junk food.
Eva Saulnier (34:28):
Yeah yeah, that's not necessarily being unfit.
It's defined as the totalinability to provide care or
support.
So that's quite a high bar.
You're going to have to reallygather a lot of evidence, but it
happens.
I've had a case just recentlywhere mom and dads were both
(34:52):
proven to be unfit.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (34:55):
The cases that I have my patients come to
me about very concerned is likethe adult parent, their child or
their in-law or whatever.
The other one is like passedout on drugs or like not putting
them in seatbelts or takingthem to parties or having them
(35:17):
exposed to like really unstable,unsavory situations based on
what they're doing, and a lot ofit stems from drug abuse and
the drug culture that you knowis very scary and shocking and
dangerous, but maybe nothing'syet completely yet happened to
that child.
But I mean, those are the casesthat I think about patients
(35:38):
telling me about.
Eva Saulnier (35:40):
Yeah, and those are all good examples of what
could constitute anunsuitability.
It's just going to be, you know, you're going to have to gather
as much as possible and thenyou're kind of left in the hands
of the hearing officer and whatthey think is sufficient or not
(36:01):
.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (36:02):
But so that's the first step and do
they like give the parentseveral chances for, like, going
into rehab?
Does that mitigate or only maketemporary custody as opposed to
permanent custody?
Mitigate or only make temporarycustody as opposed to permanent
custody?
Is that what the court does ifthey're trying to let the parent
, you know, get off and getclean and straighten up?
Eva Saulnier (36:21):
Yeah, what I've seen often is in cases of
dependency or things of thatnature, of drugs and things like
that, there's going to beusually a plan, a step-up plan.
So we're going to have okay,dad or mom is going to have to
go through a sober test everyother day, blah, blah, blah.
(36:45):
You know we have like all ofthose.
And then if mom and dad havebeen sober for six months, then
their visitation rights increaseto that many days.
And you know we go fromsupervised to maybe unsupervised
, and so it's a step up planevery time that they can reach
their sober goals.
(37:06):
And it might take years untilthey get all of their rights
back.
So during that time maybe thegrandparents will have temporary
custody until the parents cankind of get clean.
And so if the parents just keepfailing and failing and failing
, then at some point maybe thecourt will just say, okay, maybe
(37:32):
grandparents should just havecustody at this point.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (37:37):
So throughout, your article series.
I read the words in quote thebest interest of the child.
But what does that mean legallyin terms of how the court makes
that determination?
Eva Saulnier (37:47):
Yeah, it's kind of like the magic phrase.
It's.
It's defined in the Ohiostatute and there's about, I
think, 16 factors that the courttakes into consideration to
determine what is in the bestinterest of a child.
(38:09):
So it's going to be the child'srelationship with the parents
or the grandparents, how they'redoing in their community, the
health of everyone, mentalhealth of everyone.
You know the age of thechildren and what sometimes you
(38:29):
know their wishes are going tobe taken into consideration if
they're mature enough to makethat type of decision.
So there's no age really ofwhat is a mature child.
It kind of depends.
Some children are very maturein their 12.
Some are not mature in their 16.
(38:50):
So yeah, there's a whole lot offactors.
It's in ORC 3109-051.
It's a long statute, very, verylong, and so there's a there's
just a bunch of things that comeinto consideration to make that
decision and yeah, it's a lot.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (39:15):
Yeah, tough situations.
Any final thoughts or words ofadvice to our listeners who may
be going through somethingsimilar to this or have other
friends or family that are kindof grappling with these problems
?
Eva Saulnier (39:30):
Yeah, I would say, typically, if grandparents are
going to step in and go throughthe courts for rights, they do
it out of love, and so I justwant to, you know, they should
just remind themselves thingsare going to be a little
frustrating, and to kind of notget caught up in this
(39:55):
frustration and then makedecisions out of frustration
based on the other side, theother parents.
But try to take a step back,look at the big picture.
What is the real goal?
It's your grandkids.
You know well-being and makedecisions based on that.
To not forget the kids in themidst, because sometimes that's
(40:21):
just what happens.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (40:22):
Yeah, I can imagine lots of power plays
and dramas and other things, andthen you add that to just the
delays in in the court and thevery high bar that you mentioned
, which I think is important,you know, for the, for the child
and for the parent.
Well, thank you so much, ava,for joining us on the Speaking
of Women's Health podcast, andthanks to our listeners for
(40:42):
tuning in, and if people want tocontact you, they can look for
you on LinkedIn and yourprofessional profile.
Eva Saulnier (40:52):
Yeah, and you know , if they type KJK, my profile
should pop up and there's all ofmy articles that get also
posted on our firm's page.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (41:02):
So oh, that's great.
I found them so interesting.
So, thank you all so much.
We're grateful for ourlisteners and we hope that you
continue to support our podcast.
Share it with others.
Give us a five-star rating, youcan donate to our nonprofit,
speakingofwomenshealthcom, leaveus a comment and if you've got
(41:26):
any questions on any topics thatyou want us to cover, email us
at contactus atspeakingofwomenshealthcom.
Remember, be strong, be healthyand be in charge.
Welcome to the Speaking of Women's Health
podcast.
I'm your host, dr Holly Thacker, and I am back in the Sunflower
House for a new edition of thispodcast, and I am so thrilled
to have back in the SunflowerHouse a good friend and a prior
(00:27):
guest, attorney, ava Saulnier.
She joined us in season one totalk about family law, including
tips on working with anattorney during divorce and
custody matters, and usually, ofcourse, we always like to talk
about uplifting things to bestrong, be healthy and be in
(00:48):
charge, but things likeend-of-life care, domestic
violence, which we've tackled inseason three, as well as
divorce, are things that arepart of life and it's important
to be knowledgeable.
And so she is back to discusssomething that I found
fascinating.
I read what she was writing onLinkedIn and, as a grandmother
(01:13):
of five, I was very interestedin the topic of grandparent
custody rights and she wrote athree-piece article series
titled custody rights, and shewrote a three-piece article
series titled when GrandparentsStep In Legal Options for
Visitation and or Custody in theState of Ohio, and I know we
(01:34):
have listeners from around theworld, but we'll be focusing on
Ohio law, but I'm sure there's alot of spring points that will
be great food for thought forall of our listeners.
Ava is advancing her practiceand she's now an attorney in the
KJK's family law practice, andshe represents individuals and
(01:56):
families in all aspects ofdomestic relations, which does
include divorce, disillusionment, property division, support
matters and custody matters.
And she's quite talented inthat she holds law degrees from
both the United States, being aCase Western Reserve graduate of
(02:17):
the School of Law as well as alaw degree from France.
Both she and her husband,douglas, are duly trained and
their families expanded.
Congratulations, ava, andwelcome back to our podcast,
thank you.
Eva Saulnier (02:32):
Thank you so much, holly.
I'm glad to be back.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (02:36):
And so tell us, like this topic, I
thought it was just not evenanything that grandparents had
anything to do with.
In fact, during my severalyears of practice in specialized
women's health, I have listenedto many women in my office very
distressed about grandchildren.
If their children are not theiradult, children might have drug
(03:01):
abuse problems or abandonmentissues or other unsafe
situations, and I really justthought that a grandparent
really didn't have any type ofrights at all.
So apparently I'm wrong.
Eva Saulnier (03:15):
Yeah, there are some rights.
It is, and we'll delve into ita bit more, but it is not easy
to obtain necessarily.
But there are ways of doingthat when the situation calls
for it, really.
And so I started thinking aboutthis because I'm expecting and
(03:37):
not that I, you know, I don'tthink we'll have any issue with
the grandparents.
They'll be able to see thegrandbaby, obviously, but but
that, you know, that kind ofmade me think a little bit about
that, because it is there's nota whole lot of information out
there about this topic, so yeah,and I do think that I know I
(03:58):
can't speak for Europeanpractices, but it would be
interesting for your perspectiveon that.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (04:03):
But it does seem like in American
culture and law that parentalrights are really pretty strong
and that the thought is thateven a parent that's maybe not
the best parent is still betterfor the child than, you know,
(04:26):
being the ward of the state orthe county.
Eva Saulnier (04:30):
Do you have?
Holly L. Thacker, MD (04:30):
some comments or perspectives on that
, just historically or legally.
Eva Saulnier (04:35):
I think the school of thought of the courts in
general is that they try tointervene as little as possible
in the private realms of afamily or anything that's
private.
So they'll intervene and takecustody from a parent and give
it to someone else only ifthere's really a big situation
(04:59):
that calls for it.
So, you know, sometimes I getclients even in in between
parents that will tell me oh,it's, it's horrible.
My kids, you know, with him orher they eat McDonald's every
day.
And I'm like I understand thatthis is not the best and you, dr
Thacker, I'm sure will behorrified, but unfortunately the
(05:21):
court is not gonna, it's notgonna be enough to take custody
unless there's real proof thatthe child is malnourished or
things of that nature.
But if I don't have evidence Ican't really help them.
So yeah, I usually sayunfortunately the standard is
(05:43):
not A+.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (05:45):
No, that's not, it's C minus D.
Yeah, I usually say,unfortunately, the standard is
not A plus.
No, that's not, it's C minus DD.
I think that's a good way tolook at it and I was like
mortified the other day when Ifound out that my granddaughter
Artemis had had a fast foodhamburger.
I'm like, you're taking her tothis place and I realized, well,
I got to zip my lips becauseI'm not the parent heard of this
(06:05):
place and I realized, well, Igot to zip my lips because I'm
not the parent, I'm thegrandparent, even though
sometimes they get on me forwhat my husband and I offer,
although it can be really good.
Like she accompanied us to theoyster bar the other day.
Eva Saulnier (06:18):
And she has the best taste she does.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (06:21):
She gets surf and turf eggs, hollandaise
which is filet and lobster.
But that is the point.
I'm sure that divorcing parentshave all sorts of complaints
about screen time or staying uplate at night, or whether
they're using sunscreen or not.
Speaking of that, Artemis saysMimi, why does my dad make me
(06:44):
look like a ghost?
He puts all this on my face,and so it's really.
The parents are the primaryones, and I guess when the
parents are divorced orseparated, that's the parent
who's got the child at that time.
They're in charge, right?
Or does the court come downsaying well, this has to be
agreed upon in terms of theparenting aspects?
Eva Saulnier (07:07):
I mean they will.
You know, for example, thecourt will take into
consideration all of that.
It's just, it's going to be abalance act.
I would say so if you have aparent that will let the
children just play video gamesall the time instead of actually
doing homework, perhaps theperson is not going to lose
(07:30):
custody.
But perhaps during the schoolyear the court is going to be
like, ok, maybe during theschool year the children are
going to be with the otherparents so they can focus on
schoolwork a bit more, have sometime to really focus on school
work a bit more, have some timeto really focus on their, on
their work, and then during thesummer they'll they'll be with
(07:52):
the other parent a bit more,because clearly the rules are
not the same.
So that might be the solutionto to that, for example.
But custody, which is decisionmaking power, decision-making
power that's really hard to betaken away.
So, yeah, there's a differencebetween visitation and custody
(08:14):
and that people usually kind ofget those confused.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (08:18):
Visitation and custody.
Right, right, those are veryimportant topics.
I think that when you've been aparent, you're just so used to
being in that parenting role,Even once your child, of course,
is completely emancipated andis an adult, even grown and have
their own family.
So I'm sure there's always alot of natural tension and
(08:41):
families between thegrandparents who, well, I raised
you just fine, you know look atyou, and then the younger
generation is looking at theseolder people.
Well, you're just so out oftouch and, like you know, I
think it's kind of crazy, thesemillennials with their sleep
obsessions, and they're readingthese same apps about parenting
(09:01):
and these sleep sacks, which Ithink is almost bordering on
abuse, because I'm all forfreedom of the arms and legs,
but it's like that's what theywant and apparently that's what
they do and there's a lot ofgenerational differences.
Eva Saulnier (09:15):
Yes, those sleep sacks.
I got so many of them, so manydifferent ones, and I don't.
I don't know which one, becauseyou know everyone tells you
that's what you have to get.
They look so complicated so I'mlike I hope just that the nurse
(09:38):
will teach me how to use that,because this looks and I have a
higher degree.
But wow, it's just really hardto figure out.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (09:43):
Yeah, so we'll see figure out.
Yeah, it's like a straightjacket.
But I'm sure a lot of just youknow your own instincts and you
spending time with your childand understanding kind of what
their needs were.
When my first son was born,they said, oh, has to sleep on
the stomach because that'sbetter for them, that less
sudden infant death.
(10:03):
And I'm like Stetson onlywanted to sleep on his back.
And then by the time Emersonwas born a year and a half later
, oh no, they had the evidenceyou had to sleep on your back.
Well, he would cry and he wasfussy and I'm like I'm just
going to listen to what I thinkis my instinct as a mother,
what's best for my child.
And so I do think that that'sso important for society and the
(10:26):
law and the extended family toreally respect the parents.
It's their ultimateresponsibility.
But there are obviously timeswhen grandparents or aunts or
uncles or other relatives mightfeel the need to intervene for
that child's safety or even justto seek visitation with their
(10:47):
grandchildren.
So when married parents decideto terminate their marriage or
legally separate, how do thegrandparents fare in that
situation?
Eva Saulnier (11:01):
Yeah, so in the run-of-the-mill divorce,
typically we're not going tohave grandparents seek
visitation, necessarily becausethe parents are going to make
sure that their parents see thegrandchildren on their time.
But sometimes there's an addedlayer.
(11:22):
So one of the parents, there'ssome substance abuse, there's
some incarceration, or they'reestranged with their kids and it
was really the other spousethat was arranging visits and
then they're divorcing, and soyou're like oh, I'm not going to
see my grandkids, and what dowe do?
(11:42):
Because unfortunately, I'm notspeaking with my children
anymore, but I like to see thegrandkids.
So in those cases, uh, that'swhen, um, we have people that
come in and kind of ask us whatthey can do, um, and so you can
seek visitation, um, and sothere's going to be a whole
(12:03):
investigation, a whole process.
It's pretty long, but at the end, if it's determined that it's
in the best interest of thechildren, then you can get some
court-ordered time where youknow for sure you're going to be
able to see your grandkids andyou know they have a very vital
(12:24):
role.
I think grandparents have avital role in their
grandchildren's lives, so it'svery, very much important.
I didn't have the joy to havegrandparents, so I'm very
excited to have a child and haveyou know, see kind of the bond
that you can have betweengrandparents and grandkids.
(12:45):
I think that's just wonderful.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (12:48):
Yeah, I think it's just absolutely
fabulous and I think both sidesof your family are going to away
when the children orgrandchildren are obviously
still minors.
I mean, that would be justterrible if you're on the side
(13:20):
of the family that you know thechild, the adult child, passed
away and then you feel like youdon't have any access to ever
seeing the grandchildren.
Eva Saulnier (13:28):
Yeah, so that's the second situation where Ohio
has recognized a path for agrandparent to seek visitation.
So if in those circumstances,if you know your son, your
daughter has unfortunatelypassed away, the other parent is
not letting you see thegrandkids, you can seek
(13:50):
visitation through the courts.
And so in the third.
So there's three situationswhere you can seek visitation so
during a divorce of the parents, death of one parent, or in
juvenile court.
So whenever a child is born ofan unmarried woman those
(14:11):
statutes are very old-fashionedin juvenile court, but that's
how it's called and so in thosesituations you can seek
visitation.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (14:21):
Now I understand from reading some of
your articles and since I'm justas a boy mom, so my biological
children are all males, so theywouldn't be the ones giving
birth.
It's of course you know thewomen, the woman that they're
with, there's not.
There's not a good edge, though, for the paternal side, correct
(14:42):
, where there is an automaticedge of the maternal grandparent
.
Eva Saulnier (14:47):
So the maternal grandparents are going to be
able to file very fast becauseof course we know that the
paternal grandparents areassociated with the mom, who's
the mom For paternalgrandparents.
You're going to have toestablish the paternity first,
(15:07):
which isn't super hard, you knowyou just get a test, a
paternity test.
but you need to go through thatprocess of having the court
issue an order for paternitytest, get the paternity test,
pay for it and then, if you canprove all that, then you can
(15:28):
seek a visitation.
So it's just going to add acouple more months of the
process which is already longenough and frustrating enough.
So yeah, that's the, that's theonly downside.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (15:42):
And what if the father claims that that's
his child, even though he's notmarried?
Does that speed it up at all?
Eva Saulnier (15:51):
So if you're not if you're on the birth
certificate.
If your name is on the birthcertificate, that kind of gives
you a little, a little edge.
You'll have to do a testeventually, unless, I mean, if
it's contested.
If it's not contested, thenyou're not going to have to do
that.
So being on the birthcertificate is a very good idea
(16:13):
if you're not married.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (16:15):
But what if you're in the situation I
have a friend whose daughter isexpecting a baby and is not
married, but the father of thechild has been verbally abusive
and she doesn't think she wantsa relationship with them.
So in those cases, is it betterthat the woman not put the
father's name on the birthcertificate or does it not
matter if he demands a paternitytest and wants to be involved
(16:37):
in the child's life?
Eva Saulnier (16:39):
He'll.
It's just going to make hislife a little bit harder at
first.
If he's not on the birthcertificate, it's not her
responsibility to do it, it'shis.
So so you know, if she doesn'twant to do those extra steps,
she shouldn't.
I mean, you know, um he's, ifhe wants to seek custody, he'll
(17:00):
have to go through those steps.
Um get his name added um youknow, prove that he's the father
, and then he can try and seekcustody or visitation rights.
Establish his rights.
He'll have to file becausethey're not married.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (17:19):
Wow, so much.
Well, you've been listening tothe Speaking of Women's Health
podcast and I'm your host, drHolly Thacker, talking to an
attorney in family law, dr AvaSaulnier, who's expanding her
family, and we're talking aboutgrandparents' rights in terms of
in the law in the state of Ohioand the cases that I've heard
(17:42):
about.
As a physician dealing with mydistressed midlife patients is
what about the cases of abusedor neglected dependent children?
What are the grandparents'legal options in these
situations when they really fearfor the safety of their
grandchild but they don't havecustody?
Eva Saulnier (18:04):
Yeah, so when a situation falls into that
category we kind of fall into alittle niche of the law where
the agency is probably going tobe involved.
So social workers are going tobe involved.
In Cuyahoga County it's theDivision of Children and Family
(18:24):
Services, home, dcfs, and sothey have their own little
bubble.
There's not really a set pathwritten in black and white for a
grandparent, so it's morelikely going to be on a
(18:46):
case-by-case basis where youknow the people in charge, the
social workers, the magistratethey're going to.
Just the priority is to put thechildren in a safe place.
So it might be thegrandparents' home, it might be
a foster home, it depends on thecase.
But they'll definitely reachout to all of the relatives to
(19:12):
see there's sort of a priorityof the blood first Is it.
Yeah, there's a priority ofcloser to the family and then
you can expand.
Foster homes are going to bethe last, really the last,
solution.
They try to not place kids.
(19:34):
If they can have a familymember that can do it and he's
competent to take care of thekids.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (19:42):
Oh, that's good to hear, because I've just
heard at least you know stories, people telling me oh no, went
to the foster home, but we werethe great aunt or the great
uncle and have resources andwe're wanting to take care of
these children, like in the caseof you know, both parents being
incarcerated or or deceased.
you know one thing, which I'msure we could probably do a
whole other podcast on um interms of the whole assisted
(20:05):
reproductive technology and howthere's surrogacies and you know
donated eggs and you knowthere's the child that was
conceived with a third person'smitochondria you know the mother
and the father and then anothermitochondria in a surrogate.
And can you comment a littlebit about those rules, like if
(20:26):
you had a surrogate grandchildthat was biologically related to
you but wasn't being raised byum, your biological adult child,
do you have any rights to that?
Eva Saulnier (20:39):
child.
That really adds a lot oflayers and I don't think that
the court or the law has caughtup on the scientific
achievements that we can.
You know what we can donowadays, so there's not a whole
lot of case law on this.
But mainly what is going tocontrol is the surrogacy
(21:03):
agreement or you know, whateveragreement is being signed or
contract is being signed at thefacility.
So you really have to payattention to the terms that are
in there, because it's going todefine who has custody, who has
rights, who has parental rights,who doesn't.
(21:24):
So usually the courts are goingto look at those contracts very
closely because that's theeasiest way of doing this.
Otherwise it's just kind ofmayhem.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (21:37):
Right, and doesn't it possibly depend on
what county in the state of Ohiothat you're in?
Eva Saulnier (21:44):
Yeah, there's just not controlling law yet, so I
don't believe that there's awhole lot of.
So I don't believe that there'sa whole lot of Ohio Supreme
Court laws yet or precedent onall of those cases.
So it will depend until it goesup, until there's an appeal and
(22:12):
you get a Supreme Court case.
Then it kind of depends on allcounties.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (22:13):
Even within the same same court you
can have different rulingsdepending on your hearing
officer, um so well, I wouldassume that most egg donors and
most sperm donors, as well asthe surrogate gestational
carriers, probably sign away alltheir rights, generally
speaking.
So if they've signed away alltheir rights, I wouldn't think,
secondarily, that grandparentswould probably not have a leg to
(22:35):
stand on.
And I think a lot of people findout these things later, when
they've done, you know, theirrecreational genetic testing,
and then they find out they haveblood relatives they never knew
about.
That's a whole other discussion.
Eva Saulnier (22:51):
But one thing I would.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (22:52):
I would say that I just learned recently
from my PhD geneticist, sonStetson is he was telling me
that the paternal grandparentshave the genetic edge because
there's less assortative changesin the male gamete than the
female.
And then if you're a paternalgrandmother like I I am of
granddaughters then you have themost edge out of all four of
(23:13):
the grandparents because yourson gave that X chromosome to
the daughter.
Eva Saulnier (23:19):
So there's that.
I don't know that that has anyeffects in the law.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (23:23):
But if they're going straight on blood
there's a little bit moregenetic similarity.
Eva Saulnier (23:29):
Maybe I'll try that argument one day.
Yes, we'll see if that works,if that works.
Yeah.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (23:35):
Yeah, oh my.
So let's talk about custody.
When would a grandparent needto step in and try to seek
custody of their grandchildren?
Eva Saulnier (23:45):
Yeah, so custody is going to be decision-making
powers, so all of thosedecisions that are big decisions
for the kids, which is schooldecisions, medical decisions,
extracurriculars, all of thatgood stuff.
So that's kind of an addedlayer than just visitation
(24:09):
rights where it's just time withthe kids.
Than just visitation rightswhere it's just, you know, time
with the kids.
Um, so you're gonna want thatif really there's a big issue
with the parents, they are notable to support, um, the, your
grandkids, their kids, um, andso you are doing this out of
(24:30):
love, not necessarily obligation, but you know that you need to
step in for the kids.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (24:37):
So could that be in like a situation like
of homeless?
I know that years ago, when Iserved on the school board, we
actually, of course, in thestate of Ohio, there's law and
we had policy for how you dealwith students that are homeless
for how you deal with studentsthat are homeless.
Eva Saulnier (24:53):
Yeah, yeah, that would be.
You know, inability to supportfinancially is also would be
something that could qualify, soyeah.
So if you're seeking custodythrough the court, the first
step is that you're going tohave to prove unsuitability or
that the parents are unfit tocare for the kids.
(25:16):
So that's gonna be the firststep.
You may have a full trial onthat first and then if the court
finds that the parents or theparent there can probably have
only one sometimes is unfit,then you go and do kind of the
more traditional trial, which isgoing to be about the best
(25:39):
interests of the children.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (25:42):
Are there times when the remaining parent
doesn't want the children orit's amicable and they want to
give up the custody.
Does that make it easier?
Eva Saulnier (25:51):
Very much, very much.
So it it's.
It's pretty rare, but it doeshappen.
Yeah, um, it does happen.
And so if a parent wants togive up his or her parental
rights, the court it will accept.
You know, the court is notgoing to go against someone's
wishes, um, so you can just inthat that case it's fairly easy.
(26:14):
You just kind of draw up anagreement and then get that
signed by the court.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (26:21):
So how does a grandparent go about
seeking legal custody of thegrandchildren?
Eva Saulnier (26:27):
So you file a motion in the court for custody,
Then there's going to be kindof all of the usual in my world
people that are going to comeinto play.
So you might have a guardian adlitem, which is typically an
attorney that is trained andwill do an investigation we
(26:51):
might get and that guardian adlitem is like the child's own
attorney.
Yeah, sort of I think.
Yeah, it's the person that has.
It's the person that will writea report to the court and state
what they think is in thechild's best interest.
So they'll talk with the schoolteachers, with the family
(27:14):
relatives.
They'll go to each parent'shouse and see what the house
looks like, how they interactwith each parent, with the
grandparents too.
Then in that case you're goingto have a visit of the
grandparents.
I'm sure in most cases, youknow the grandparents' health is
(27:35):
going to be in play too,because we need to make sure, if
they're older, we need to makesure that they are able to take
care of the kids in terms oftheir health as well.
So there's just a whole lot offactors that come into play.
So that's why it takes so long,because there needs to be a lot
(27:55):
of data for the courts to beable to make a ruling.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (28:00):
Is there typically social workers and
child psychologists or folkslike that involved?
Eva Saulnier (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, we try to have different so there can
be a child psychologist thatwill testify in court, but that
won't be necessarily the thetreating psychologist for the
children, because we try to kindof let them have their own
(28:27):
space and so that the kids knowthat they can say things that
won't end up in a reportsomewhere they need to have
their safe bubble that won't bebreached.
So then we kind of duplicatethe amount of people that are
involved, but it's kind of totry to protect them.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (28:48):
So talk to us about the difference between
temporary custody through apower of attorney and temporary
custody through a caretakerauthorization affidavit.
Eva Saulnier (28:59):
Yeah, so those can be done by agreement from the
parents.
The power of attorney.
Custodial parents or bothcustodial parents can sign that
to the grandparents if theythink.
Usually it's in a situationwhere the kids are already
(29:19):
living with the grandparents.
The parents are not necessarilydoing well, they have their own
issues.
Parents take care of the kidsand the grandparents need to
have some sort of document thatgive them the power to make
(29:39):
decisions, because they need toenroll the kids in school, they
need to take them to thehospitals and make decisions.
You know all of that.
So you can sign a power ofattorney after david's uh kind
of granting that authority tomake decisions on a temporary
basis.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (30:00):
Is that a good thing to do, Like there's
been times that I've watched mygrandchildren, you know, once
when my son and his wife wereout of the country vacationing
and other shorter periods oftime.
But you know, I just rememberwhen my sister was a little girl
and broke her arm and theneighborhood parent took her
into the emergency room eventhough she was in distress and
(30:22):
her arm was visibly needing tobe set because it was completely
deformed, the hospital wouldn'tdo anything because there
wasn't anybody who had legalauthority to even authorize.
I mean, it wasn'tlife-threatening, but it was
still an emergency, but notlife-threatening.
Eva Saulnier (30:40):
Yeah, that could be a good, that could be a good
idea to do that.
So you have to kind of get itsigned every single time.
So it can be a little hassle toget that done and then kind of.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (30:55):
And my one son said oh, we don't really
need this, because if somethinghappens and you take them to the
emergency room, you can justget us on the phone.
Eva Saulnier (31:03):
Well, sometimes you can't always get people on
the phone, you know we do livein a world where it is much
easier to get a hold of someone,but sometimes you can't.
I would imagine that if it's alife-threatening situation, the
hospital would act at some point.
Right yeah, if it'slife-threatening.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (31:27):
The problem is when it's not exactly
life-threatening, but it mightbe still painful and
uncomfortable.
So that's why I usually like atleast something written down
and all the insuranceinformation and all of that and
obviously parents aren'tgranting you complete authority
indefinitely, but for whateverthat period of time is, For a
small period of time, Time right.
And what about legal custodythrough the parents' agreement?
Eva Saulnier (31:53):
I'll just talk about the caretaker one, because
that's to say, um, just thecaretaker authorization
affidavit is when you can't geta hold of the parents.
You are the grandparent, yourgrandchild is living with you.
You don't know where theparents are.
It happens, yeah, like they'vejust gone away, they're just
(32:13):
gone, and so in.
So in that situation you need apaper that gives you rights.
So you'll fill that out andthen file it with the court, and
so then you get a court orderthat you can take decisions.
It's only, you know, if one ofthe parents shows up again and
contests that, then it kind ofreverses right away.
(32:35):
So that's why we say it'stemporary, because it's as soon
as it's contested, then therights go back to the parents.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (32:46):
Like if the parent was kidnapped and
then all of a sudden they werefree.
Yeah, I guess.
Eva Saulnier (32:51):
Anything's possible.
But yeah, so that's thecaretaker authorization
affidavit, and then you know,the parents can also just agree
and enter into an agreement withthe grandparents to grant them
temporary custody.
(33:12):
It's possible.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (33:13):
I haven't seen that yet, but it's possible
I haven't seen that yet, butit's possible really, even like
in this global world, like whatif the parent had business and
they had to be out of thecountry and they didn't want to
take their child, for whateverreason, and they wanted their
child in the same I don't knowschool district or environment?
Eva Saulnier (33:32):
yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, in those cases,
grandparents' rights in generalis extremely, fairly rare.
I would say it's not so.
I haven't yet seen thatsituation, but I might.
It's very much possible, yeah.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (33:51):
So let's discuss the legal processes for
grandparents who want topetition the court for legal
custody.
I read in your article that toovercome a parent's
constitutional right to custody,a grandparent seems like they
have a pretty high heel decline.
They have to prove in court theparent is unsuitable.
And what does that mean for aparent to be legally unfit to be
(34:13):
a parent?
Eva Saulnier (34:13):
And what does that mean for a parent to be legally
unfit to be a parent?
Yeah, I think we touched alittle bit on that earlier, but
that was my example of themeating McDonald's every day.
That's not.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (34:24):
That's not being unfit.
You can take them for junk food.
Eva Saulnier (34:28):
Yeah yeah, that's not necessarily being unfit.
It's defined as the totalinability to provide care or
support.
So that's quite a high bar.
You're going to have to reallygather a lot of evidence, but it
happens.
I've had a case just recentlywhere mom and dads were both
(34:52):
proven to be unfit.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (34:55):
The cases that I have my patients come to
me about very concerned is likethe adult parent, their child or
their in-law or whatever.
The other one is like passedout on drugs or like not putting
them in seatbelts or takingthem to parties or having them
(35:17):
exposed to like really unstable,unsavory situations based on
what they're doing, and a lot ofit stems from drug abuse and
the drug culture that you knowis very scary and shocking and
dangerous, but maybe nothing'syet completely yet happened to
that child.
But I mean, those are the casesthat I think about patients
(35:38):
telling me about.
Eva Saulnier (35:40):
Yeah, and those are all good examples of what
could constitute anunsuitability.
It's just going to be, you know, you're going to have to gather
as much as possible and thenyou're kind of left in the hands
of the hearing officer and whatthey think is sufficient or not
(36:01):
.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (36:02):
But so that's the first step and do
they like give the parentseveral chances for, like, going
into rehab?
Does that mitigate or only maketemporary custody as opposed to
permanent custody?
Mitigate or only make temporarycustody as opposed to permanent
custody?
Is that what the court does ifthey're trying to let the parent
, you know, get off and getclean and straighten up?
Eva Saulnier (36:21):
Yeah, what I've seen often is in cases of
dependency or things of thatnature, of drugs and things like
that, there's going to beusually a plan, a step-up plan.
So we're going to have okay,dad or mom is going to have to
go through a sober test everyother day, blah, blah, blah.
(36:45):
You know we have like all ofthose.
And then if mom and dad havebeen sober for six months, then
their visitation rights increaseto that many days.
And you know we go fromsupervised to maybe unsupervised
, and so it's a step up planevery time that they can reach
their sober goals.
(37:06):
And it might take years untilthey get all of their rights
back.
So during that time maybe thegrandparents will have temporary
custody until the parents cankind of get clean.
And so if the parents just keepfailing and failing and failing
, then at some point maybe thecourt will just say, okay, maybe
(37:32):
grandparents should just havecustody at this point.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (37:37):
So throughout, your article series.
I read the words in quote thebest interest of the child.
But what does that mean legallyin terms of how the court makes
that determination?
Eva Saulnier (37:47):
Yeah, it's kind of like the magic phrase.
It's.
It's defined in the Ohiostatute and there's about, I
think, 16 factors that the courttakes into consideration to
determine what is in the bestinterest of a child.
(38:09):
So it's going to be the child'srelationship with the parents
or the grandparents, how they'redoing in their community, the
health of everyone, mentalhealth of everyone.
You know the age of thechildren and what sometimes you
(38:29):
know their wishes are going tobe taken into consideration if
they're mature enough to makethat type of decision.
So there's no age really ofwhat is a mature child.
It kind of depends.
Some children are very maturein their 12.
Some are not mature in their 16.
(38:50):
So yeah, there's a whole lot offactors.
It's in ORC 3109-051.
It's a long statute, very, verylong, and so there's a there's
just a bunch of things that comeinto consideration to make that
decision and yeah, it's a lot.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (39:15):
Yeah, tough situations.
Any final thoughts or words ofadvice to our listeners who may
be going through somethingsimilar to this or have other
friends or family that are kindof grappling with these problems
?
Eva Saulnier (39:30):
Yeah, I would say, typically, if grandparents are
going to step in and go throughthe courts for rights, they do
it out of love, and so I justwant to, you know, they should
just remind themselves thingsare going to be a little
frustrating, and to kind of notget caught up in this
(39:55):
frustration and then makedecisions out of frustration
based on the other side, theother parents.
But try to take a step back,look at the big picture.
What is the real goal?
It's your grandkids.
You know well-being and makedecisions based on that.
To not forget the kids in themidst, because sometimes that's
(40:21):
just what happens.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (40:22):
Yeah, I can imagine lots of power plays
and dramas and other things, andthen you add that to just the
delays in in the court and thevery high bar that you mentioned
, which I think is important,you know, for the, for the child
and for the parent.
Well, thank you so much, ava,for joining us on the Speaking
of Women's Health podcast, andthanks to our listeners for
(40:42):
tuning in, and if people want tocontact you, they can look for
you on LinkedIn and yourprofessional profile.
Eva Saulnier (40:52):
Yeah, and you know , if they type KJK, my profile
should pop up and there's all ofmy articles that get also
posted on our firm's page.
Holly L. Thacker, MD (41:02):
So oh, that's great.
I found them so interesting.
So, thank you all so much.
We're grateful for ourlisteners and we hope that you
continue to support our podcast.
Share it with others.
Give us a five-star rating, youcan donate to our nonprofit,
speakingofwomenshealthcom, leaveus a comment and if you've got
(41:26):
any questions on any topics thatyou want us to cover, email us
at contactus atspeakingofwomenshealthcom.
Remember, be strong, be healthyand be in charge.
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