April 23, 2025 • 45 mins
Discover the ancient art of acupuncture with Dr. Holly Thacker and our esteemed guest, Dr. Jing Fan, a renowned expert bridging the worlds of Chinese and Western medicine. Together, they unravel how this centuries-old practice can do more than just alleviate pain. From managing menstrual cramps to aiding in stroke recovery, Dr. Fan provides an enlightening perspective on acupuncture's capacity to balance hormones and enhance bodily functions by manipulating energy flows, or qi, across the body’s meridians.
Dr. Fan takes us on a journey through the myriad health benefits acupuncture offers, emphasizing its role in addressing complex conditions like osteoarthritis, Bell’s palsy, and even mood disorders. He shares his clinical expertise on how acupuncture releases endorphins, boosts blood flow, and influences neurotransmitters, offering a holistic approach to health. Whether it's alleviating chronic pain or supporting addiction recovery, Dr. Fan explains why acupuncture is a valuable tool in modern medicine’s toolkit.
For those curious about acupuncture's safety and practicalities, they cover essential tips for a safe experience, highlighting the importance of finding licensed professionals. Dr. Fan also shares his tailored recommendations for treatment frequency, ensuring listeners understand how to optimize results. They wrap up with how you can connect with both Dr. Fan and Dr. Thacker for further insights, ensuring that expert advice is just a call or click away. Tune in to unlock the secrets of acupuncture and its transformative potential for health and well-being.
For more information on Dr. Jing Fan or to make an appointment with him, visit clevelandclinic.org or call 440-940-2706.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
welcome to the speaking of women's health
podcast.
I'm your host, dr holly thacker, the executive director of
speaking of women's health, andI am back in the sunflower house
for a new episode episode, andon this episode I am
interviewing Dr Jing Fan to talkabout acupuncture.
(00:31):
And he is so well educated suchan impressive background.
He has an undergraduate degreein surgery of Chinese medicine
and he has a master's degree inclinical medicine from Nanjing
(00:53):
University in China.
He also completed a fellowshipin Chinese medicine and a
fellowship in orthopedic surgeryfrom Shanghai Jiao Tong
University.
After all this training, hewent to Harvard Medical School
in Boston to complete a PhD intranslational medicine and he
(01:19):
currently works in the wellnessand preventventive Medicine
Department at Cleveland Clinic.
Wow, such an impressivebackground.
Welcome to the Speaking ofWomen's Health podcast, dr Fan.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thanks so much, dr Decker, for that kind
introduction.
I'm really excited to be hereon the Speaking of Women's
Health podcast.
I'm looking forward to chatwith you about acupuncture, how
it works and how it can helppeople feel their best.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
This is such an important topic.
In fact, after I got back fromone of my sessions with you the
other day for my shoulder and Ithink we're going to post
pictures of my shoulder with allthe different acupuncture
needles in it One of our nursepractitioners who's been on this
podcast, kelsey Kennedy, andshe said it was fine for me to
use her name I'm not breakingany confidences.
(02:14):
She's like I'm the one whofound him.
He's the best.
I said well, you didn't tell methat, I just found him too.
But now we're going to let allof our listeners from 80
different countries who arelistening in and even if they're
not able to come to ClevelandClinic to see you I think it's
so important for our listenersto understand Tell us what is
(02:39):
acupuncture.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Okay, thank you so much for inviting me here.
So acupuncture is a key part ofthe traditional Chinese
medicine, or we can call it thetraditional, maybe oriental,
medicine, not only in Chinesebut also in Japan, korea, a lot
of the Asian areas.
So that has been practiced forthousands of years.
(03:01):
So the first book we learned inChinese medicine acupuncture is
about 3,000 years ago.
So it involved inserting verythin sterile needles into the
specific point on the body.
We call this point acupuncturepoint or acupoints.
So these points are locatedalong the pathways.
(03:22):
We call them meridians, so theyare believed to carry energy,
which we call qi.
So, yeah, it helps thecirculation of energy
circulation and balancing ofenergy.
The goal of the acupuncture isto restore the balance of the
flow of the qi and help the bodyheal itself.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So interesting and it's such a long therapy to be
around for thousands of yearsand that's the one thing that
Kelsey said to me is anythingthat doesn't work or isn't
impressive wouldn't have lastedthis long.
So tell us, how doesacupuncture work and are there
(04:04):
different types of acupuncture?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yes.
So yes, we have the two.
We can call it the concept ofacupuncture.
One is the traditionalacupuncture, one is the modern
acupuncture, because we havebeen practicing, the Asian
people have been practicingacupuncture for thousands of
years.
So the idea, philosophy they'reusing is qi right.
(04:31):
So the energy they want to movethe energy, they want to
promote energy flow.
But today, more and moreresearch we did, we found
acupuncture works by stimulatingthe point on the body and help
the balance with a lot of thescientific research of the
(04:52):
pathways.
So the first mechanism ofacupuncture is the local effects
.
So when we insert needle in theplace of the area, so it
triggers some response.
We call the reflex, theresponse in the surrounding
tissue.
So this increase the blood flowand release some natural
(05:14):
chemicals like the endorphins,so which reduce the pain and
promote healing.
Yes, a lot of the applicationof acupuncture, like for the
muscular skeletal pain, wasusing this effect effects.
So this we call the localeffects.
It can remove the, theinflammation and reduce the
(05:37):
muscle tension.
The second pathway, secondmechanism, is also another
reflex, but we call thesomato-autonomic reflex.
So this is the reflex, theacupuncture tap into the body's
autonomic nervous system whichcontrols the function like we
(05:59):
have internal organ, like thedigestion, the heart rate and
blood pressure.
So there are a little bitcomplicated, sorry.
So there are two pathway, onesegmental, one is the brain
level.
Segmental happens within thesingle spinal segment.
For example, if we putacupuncture needles on the
(06:23):
abdominal area so it may improvethe stomach function by calming
the nerves connected to thatspecific spinal segment.
That is the segmental pathway.
Another one is a brain levelpathway.
Brain level pathway is thesignals travels to the brain
first and then influence thebody.
So, for example, stimulatingpoints on arms and the legs we
(06:47):
call the meridians.
We put the needle on thestomach meridian, large
intestine meridian, the stomachlarge intestine, not on the
trunk but the meridian on armsand legs.
So it can improve the digestionand the cardiovascular function
through the reflex involving thebrain and the nerves, like the
vigorous nerve.
So this is the reflex.
(07:10):
And also we can see some systemas the systemic effects we call
this is a neural transmittersin the brain.
So Acupuncture, we can see alot of the example.
Acupuncture help regulate thebrain.
Chemicals like the serotoninand the dopamine, yeah, which
play a role, very important roletoday we can use acupuncture
(07:33):
help the mood issue.
So disorder of the mood andalso pain control and even
addiction.
So this is yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
It is so fascinating, so it sounds like it's
incredibly holistic.
It deals with the whole bodythe musculoskeletal system, the
brain, the neural pathways, thenatural opiate system in the
body, as well as theneurotransmitters.
So no wonder it treats so manythings.
At first, when I heard about itbeing used for so many
(08:07):
different things, I thought, oh,this just is too good to be
true, because, like I tell mylisteners, anything too good to
be true usually is.
But apparently we have anexception here with acupuncture.
Tell us about how you useacupuncture to help people quit
smoking and addictions.
That's something that plagues alot of people.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yes, so yes, because we a clinic to help people quit
(08:47):
the smoking and help people quitthe addiction for the drug use.
So usually we combine the bodyacupuncture, that is, we put a
needle on the arm, the leg,sometimes the scalp, the top of
the head, head, and also wecombine this needle with the ear
needle, auricular needle.
(09:08):
Yeah, because why, auricular,because this area, the ear outer
area, that is the areas theweakest nerve, inner weight.
So, yes, we, when we stimulatethis area, we can stimulate the
vagus nerve.
That is played an importantrole to help the people to quit
the addiction and quit smoking.
(09:28):
So this is a very popular use.
We have also an organization wecall NADA.
Nada is an organization foundedand based in New York City and
this is a worldwide, globalorganization to help people quit
addiction.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
That's excellent.
Does it help with foodaddictions?
Because, of course, obesity issomething that, at least in
America, we deal with on such awidespread basis.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, this is another application of the acupuncture,
so it's not just in America butalso all the world worldwide
issue.
In China we have a lot of theoverweighted people also.
So, yeah, so I know maybeyou're not familiar how popular
(10:19):
acupuncture in China.
We have the night clinic, notclinic or the evening clinic.
We can call it night clinicbecause we open until 9 to 10 pm
the day.
So this clinic, especially forpeople for the weight loss yeah,
with control.
So when they finish their wholeday's work they went to the
(10:42):
hospital, the clinic.
They can help manage their bodyweight.
So for this type of treatmentwe combined the abdominal needle
with the extremity needles, theneedles on the arms and legs
Abdominal needle.
Usually we combine with theelectrical stimulation.
(11:03):
Electrical acupuncture orelectrical stimulation involves
a gentle electric current passedbetween the needles to enhance
the stimulation.
This is very effective for theweight loss because a lot of
people report after the needle,after the need only.
So the the they feel the needlehelp reduce the cravings and
(11:29):
also improve the digestion andsupport the metabolism.
So it's not like the medicationor drugs for the for the weight
loss a lot of side effects, butacupuncture they didn't feel
any side effect but they feel,feel, yeah, so they can
constantly feel the improvementof their weight management.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
That is fascinating and I think when people who've
never had acupuncture hear aboutneedles or hear about
electrical stimulation, itsounds scary.
But I can tell you personally Ihad acupuncture years ago for
tennis elbow.
I went from playing tennis oncea week to twice a week and I
have bad tendons, as mylisteners know, and I didn't
(12:11):
want a steroid injection.
And one of our gynecologists onstaff was also trained in
acupuncture and she's like, ohcome on, let's do it.
I just had the plain needles,it wasn't painful and I was so
improved and happy that I didn'thave to take medications or get
a steroid injection.
And then fast forward.
Several years later I decided tolift a lot more weights and
(12:34):
increase it too much and strainmy old tendons and came to see
you and you also have appliedthe electrical stimulation and
it's an interesting feeling.
It's not painful at all andafterwards it almost feels like
you've either worked out yourmuscles or I felt very relaxed,
(12:55):
almost like I had had a massagein a kind of a different way.
Is that the neurochemicals inthe brain?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So, yes, I just mentioned themany pathways.
So, yeah, so for the pain issue, for the pain issue, it's more
than the pathway I mentioned.
It also has another like thefascial network.
Yeah, so that is the newer ideathat explains how acupuncture
(13:23):
can help the collected tissues,the fascia.
We know we are a lot of thewhole body full of all of the
fascia.
Fascia is a network of thetissue running through the body.
It may act as the pathway foreffective acupuncture.
Also, stimulating the pointsmight improve how the body
(13:48):
communicates the heals itselfwith the fascia system.
So that is why acupunctureworks very well.
For the pain issue, we all knowthe Ohio Medicaid covered
acupuncture with seven.
Let me see one, two, three,four, five, six, yeah, seven.
I remember seven conditionslike the acute post-operative
(14:10):
pain, cervical pain, low backpain, migraines, osteoarthritis
of the hip and knee and also onemore very interesting nausea or
vomiting related to thepregnancy and the chemotherapy.
So that's it.
All of this is covered by theOhio Medicaid.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh my, I wish I would have known about it.
I had terrible nausea with mypregnancies.
In fact, it was so terrible Ican't believe I got pregnant as
many times as I did, because itwas terrible to feel nauseated
all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And so it's safe in pregnancy then, yeah yes,
because for the pregnancy weknow some point is not good to
use.
Some points are good to use.
So because for the pregnancy weknow a lot of people are
concerned about takingmedication because maybe not
good for the baby.
So yeah, but the acupuncture isvery safe.
(15:09):
There's no side effect like thedrug.
But the WCM helped with thereflex, can help to sedate the
nausea and the vomiting.
So usually we put the needle onthe upper stomach, not lower
but upper stomach and also theneedle on the wrist area,
sometimes just the, and also wecan add one point on the knee
(15:34):
area.
So we just put maybe threeneedles or sometimes four
needles.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
We can help the nausea a lot Wow, sometimes four
needles.
We can help the nausea a lotWow.
I'm gonna have to have ourexecutive producer and our
social media manager, leeKleckar, update lots of our
pages, like from migraineheadache to low back pain to we
have a lot of information aboutnausea.
In pregnancy.
I used a little bit of b6 andthen those acupressure bands,
but it probably would have beena lot better just to come in and
(16:05):
get the needle.
Does it stimulate fasterdigestion?
Because what I thought, why Iwas so nauseated is like my
stomach just never emptied.
The food would just sit therefor hours.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So for all the digestion issues, not only
stomach issues but also bowelmovement issues, acupuncture
works very well for that.
Acupuncture can work for eitherconstipation or diarrhea.
So this is very interesting.
So some people have diarrhea,we can fix it.
Some people have constipation,also we can fix it.
(16:40):
And sometimes these two typesof treatments are similar also
can fix it.
And sometimes these two typesof treatment are similar.
That means the acupuncture, theacupoint treatment, the
medulline stimulating the point,can have the bidirection effect
on the whole body.
That is what we call restorethe balance Fascinating.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
And is this something for children?
Is there any kind of an agelimit in terms of?
Is it for cooperation or justdevelopment of the nervous
system?
It depends.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
It depends on how sensitive the children are, how
the kind of education we educateour children about acupuncture.
In China for the kids,acupuncture for the children is
a very popular use.
So usually five years, sixyears children we can use
(17:30):
acupuncture also, and also I didacupuncture for my daughter
once.
They're maybe three years old.
It's okay for some of them,they're just scared, they cry.
But when I put a needle it'sokay, it's not hurting.
Yeah, this is kind of education, but usually I because I'm not
a pediatric acupuncturistusually I works for the patient
(17:55):
about eight years or nine yearsabout, because I think they can
control their emotion andcontrol their behavior better.
So I'm so when I see the babycry my heart breaks.
So I have to admit I'm not agood pediatric acupuncturist.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
It's definitely a different skill.
I know when I rotated inmedical school with pediatrics
Definitely a different skill.
I know when I rotated inmedical school with pediatrics I
was like this is not for me, Ijust want to deal with adults.
So it is a different skill setand just like in so many fields
of medicine.
But you have been listening tothe Speaking of Women's Health
podcast and I'm your host, drHolly Thacker I am interviewing
(18:40):
Dr Jing Fan, who is trained inorthopedic surgery, acupuncture
and also translational medicine.
He's done extensive research sohe really understands all the
whole biology, physiology,pathology, anatomy and has
studied several differentaspects of medicine.
(19:04):
And we're talking about howacupuncture works.
It works for lots of painconditions, including chronic
lower back pain.
We have a podcast on sciatica.
Migraine headaches certainlyare a big problem.
Half the population has them.
I had a podcast on migraineheadaches but I didn't include
anything about acupuncture Now Ifeel like I'm deficient and
(19:26):
some other women's health topics.
You were telling me menstrualcramps.
I mean we deal with painfulmenstrual periods all the time
in our Center for SpecializedWomen's Health and a lot of
times use medication or hormonalmanipulation.
But you've got a needle totreat that right.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes, yeah, so the acupuncture because acupuncture
works with the nervous system,works with the endocrine system
and also works with sometimesworks, that we can see the
evidence to see acupuncture canhelp the immune system.
And so this is all of thismechanism.
(20:04):
So combined we can seeacupuncture works very well for
the menstrual cycle regulationand also sometimes the menopause
and hot flashes.
It's not only the pain but alsothe help.
This restore the cycle, theregular cycle and also the
infertility.
(20:25):
So the mechanism is what wecall the neuroendocrine effect.
The neuroendocrine effectregulates the hormones, not like
the estrogen, progesterone, butit's more come from works more
from the hypothalamus and theputeri.
So the glands, we see thecentral nerve system.
(20:46):
We know there is an axlebetween the central nerve and
the target organ, the glands.
Acupuncture can regulate thestimulating hormone and then can
help the feedback, the hormonefeedback.
So you know, I see a lot of mypatients who have the menstrual
(21:07):
cycle issue is because they'reusing some fake hormone.
Yeah, so they are using thebirth control pill to improve
their sensitivity of thefeedback and regulate and
promote our natural hormoneproduction and that can help
that.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Excellent.
Now, when I asked you before,are there some conditions that
we should know that peopleshould get immediate treatment
for acupuncture?
You mentioned Bell's palsy, sotell us what Bell's palsy is and
why it's important for someoneto get acupuncture if they
develop this facial paralysis.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, acupuncture helps restore the muscle
function and also nerve activityin the face.
So we know the local effectimproves blood flow and helps
repair the damaged facial nerve.
If the blood flow improved, allthe damaged tissue improved.
So that is the one.
And also the fascia networksupports the muscle recovery
(22:09):
also, and you know, theacupuncture not only helps the
function of the muscle but alsocan have some systemic effect to
reduce the stress.
Also can help the healing.
Usually, you know, in China theBell's palsy is the main
(22:30):
condition, acupuncture cover.
This is the main condition.
Everybody knows who has theBell's palsy.
They should go to acupuncturefirst.
So yeah, so within the firstweek.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know that until you
educated me, and I would thinkthat people would.
If their regular allopathicphysician doesn't tell them
about that, they wouldn't know.
And so you say that they mighthave the paralysis for several
months, longer than they mightotherwise have.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, so today a lot of people assume the Bell's
palsy can be healed by itselfwithout any treatment.
But in my experience I seemaybe 80% is good but the sum
maybe 10% or 20% is not good,the prognosis is not good.
With acupuncture we can reducethe risk for the long term, the
(23:23):
problem of the Bell's Palsy.
So my experience, the fastest,fastest, fastest recovery is
just two weeks, two weeks.
So everything is good,everything is recovered and some
people maybe need four weeks.
The treatment, usually the, Ithink the medium the time, the
(23:47):
recovery time is about three tofour weeks with acupuncture
fully recovered without anyproblem.
Yeah, so that is the what I see, acupuncture and the same for
the stroke.
You know, stroke is worse.
It's more, much, much moresevere than the Bell's palsy
because Bell's palsy is aperipheral nerve problem.
(24:07):
But, stroke is a central nerve.
It's a brain problem, centralnerve problem.
So the recovery period for thestroke is much longer than the
Bell's palsy.
But yes, so stroke is anothercondition in China.
Everybody knows acupuncture canhelp.
So when they got stroke theyalways go to the acupuncture
(24:30):
doctors to treat.
For the treatment for thestroke we can see with
acupuncture, without acupuncture, we can see significant
difference between these twogroups between these two groups.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Wow, that is something, because stroke can be
so devastating in any type ofparalysis, whether it's
peripheral nerve, like Bell'spalsy, or central nervous system
.
Now I'm curious about theosteoarthritis indications,
because when I look at x-rays ofjoints hips, knees, hands and
you see bone on bone, you wouldthink it's end stage.
(25:06):
So is it just pain relief?
Or I mean, as far as I know, wecan't regenerate cartilage,
which loss of cartilage and thejoint imbalance is a major part
of the problem.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
This is a very good question, this is a very good
(25:46):
question.
This is also, I can is the mainmanifestation or phenomenon of
the osteoarthritis.
But the cause of osteoarthritisis more than that.
Why the cartilage damage?
Why we can see the bone on bone.
That is something we need tofix first right.
So we are born with healthy,everybody born with healthy.
(26:11):
But why we developedosteoarthritis that is because
of the imbalance of soft tissue.
We can see most of people whohas osteoarthritis with the
deformity of the alignment ofthe knee.
Some people have varus orvalgus because the knee bending
inside or bending outside.
That is what we call thedeformities of the joint.
(26:33):
Why it happened?
Because the joint, the capsuleor the ligament around joint
lose the balance.
One side is tighter thananother side.
That is why the body's weightloading more on inside or
outside more than another side.
That is cause the compartment,the damage, the cartilage damage
(26:57):
in one compartment.
We seldom see both of the.
Just for the knee, for example.
For the knee osteoarthritis wehave two compartments.
One is the medial, one is thelateral.
Most of the osteoarthritishappened in the medial side.
Why medial side?
Because the medial, theligament is more likely to
(27:19):
develop, the tighten and shorten.
So then the outer side, themedial side is more stable and
the more thickness than theouter side.
So that is why when we becauseI did a lot of the knee
replacement in China when I wasworking in hospital in China we
found that when we replace theknee, the knee replacement
(27:42):
surgery, we found sometimes wejust replace the medial side
only, it also can work.
It also works we don't have toreplace the whole knee.
But the key point is we need to,after surgery or during the
surgery, we need to restore thetissue balance, soft tissue
balance, the ligament balance.
(28:03):
That is more important than toreplace the bone of the knee.
So acupuncture works.
Acupuncture is very fine needle.
We know it doesn't change thestructure of the knee but it can
help not only the pain.
Pain is absolutely.
Acupuncture helps the pain.
Yeah, with a lot of reflex,reflex that changed our pain
sensation and also the bloodcirculation.
(28:26):
But acupuncture usually mystrategy of treating the knee
pain or all type of pain issue.
I wanted to do the needling onthe specific point to restore
the balance of soft tissue.
That means restore the balanceof soft tissue.
That means to release thetightened side and reinforce the
loose side.
(28:46):
So that is the way I treat thepain issue, especially for
osteoarthritis.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So it sounds like it's very complementary.
You could do it in place ofsomething more invasive.
On the other hand, if someonedoes undergo back surgery or
knee surgery or hip surgery,they still obviously need rehab
and physical therapy and paincontrol and realignment, which
it sounds like you knowacupuncture helps in those
(29:14):
realms.
So that is so fascinating.
Are there other healthconditions that acupuncture can
help with, like cancer?
Is there any contraindicationsthat you can't do?
Acupuncture in certain patients?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
So cancer is a very wide application.
Acupuncture can help so cancerand also the treatment of the
cancer, because we all knowchemotherapy has a lot of side
effects, like the neuropathy,like the digestion issues and
also some other immunityproblems.
(29:52):
So acupuncture works for thecancer itself.
We have seen a lot of thepapers, articles, reports that
acupuncture improves immunityand also anti-inflammation and
also sometimes acupuncture can,because acupuncture promote a
holistic health.
It also can help for the cancertreatment also.
(30:15):
But acupuncture works more likethe nausea, fatigue and pain
during the cancer treatment, thechemotherapy treatment,
radiotherapy treatment and alsoacupuncture help with the
patient's stress, the cancerPeople who has cancer a lot of
(30:36):
stress, very high stress.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Oh, yes, and improve sleep.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
acupuncture improve sleep, that is can help people
improve the mood and energy.
This is one for application forthe cancer and also acupuncture
.
Yeah, we just discussed thepain management, the weight
management, the nerves and thosequit smoking, and acupuncture
(31:00):
works for the one.
We.
Because I have been teachingacupuncture in China, in the
United States, for 20 yearsalmost 20 years, wow.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
You don't look old enough to have done all this.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I'm pretty old, so yeah, so acupuncture when we
learn, when we are teachingacupuncture in class, so we
teach our students.
Acupuncture works for thestroke, common cold, asthma,
vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, urinary issue, mental health
(31:38):
issue, dizziness, headaches,joint pain, all type pain, belt
pulses, sciatica, mental issue,tinnitus and hearing loss.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Oh yes, Tinnitus seems to be a huge problem that
patients are just driven crazywith.
So how is it that acupuncturehelps tinnitus, which is ringing
in the ears?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yes.
So the hearing issue.
We all know hearing issue isthe problem.
It's a big problem.
We don't have a lot of goodsolution for that issue, Usually
for acupuncture treatment, notonly for the hearing problem but
also for all type problem,because we learned the mechanism
(32:21):
I mentioned.
We need a local treatment andwith the distal treatment, the
local treatment works on thelocal reflex and also improves
the local healing of the nerve,local healing of the
inflammation, local healing ofthe tissue damage.
And the distal treatment we putthe needles for example, people
(32:42):
who have tinnitus and then weput a needle not only in the ear
, around the ear, but also weput needle on the arms.
We put needle on not only inthe ear, around the ear, but
also we put needle on the arms,with the needle on the legs and
the toes, the fingers, that theclose, the finger toes.
That is we call the meridian,so some meridian.
They connect to the ear.
There are maybe about sixmeridians to connect to the ears
(33:04):
.
We put a needle on thismeridian.
That also can improve thehearing, the functions.
So but because the tinnitus andhearing issue is very
complicated.
So when we see the reason,there are many reasons for that
one.
So acupuncture also need to seewhat type of the issue and also
we do the different plan forthis issue.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
And I've certainly seen patients who've undergone
all sorts of invasive, expensiveinfertility treatments who then
have acupuncture and getpregnant Is it primarily through
reducing stress, but alsorebalancing the hormones as well
?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yes, it's not only for the stress but also for the
hormone, hormonal balancing.
So when we treat theinfertility the same, we need to
put some needle in the lowerabdominal areas.
We have some point.
We call the uterine points.
We have some points, yeah, wecall the infertility points.
(34:08):
And also we put some needle onthe legs, meaning the legs.
The legs can have some insideof the meridian.
We call it three in meridian,there are three in meridians.
So this meridian helped collectto the vaginal area, connect to
the reproductive system.
(34:28):
That not only for the fertilitybut also can help the bladder
problem.
The bladder and also can helpthe bowel movement also can work
for that and also acupuncture.
Because, yeah, I just mentionedthat infertility is not only
the target organ problem, notonly the overall problem, not
(34:51):
only the uterus problem, butalso the hypothalamus and the
pituitary imbalance between theheart.
The bottom is kidney.
So heart is our mind, because Ihave a brave heart.
(35:13):
Heart means that it's not thishard.
A brave heart is not.
That means my heart is strongbut my mind, my brain is strong.
And also the kidney.
In Chinese medicine that is thefunction of the hormone, of the
endocrine system function.
So the heart and kidneyconnection that represent in the
Western medicine that is thehypothalamus, pituitary and
(35:36):
overall axils.
So when we do the treatment weneed to do some top treatment.
That means the needle on thescalp area that can help the
release the stress, and then weput a needle on the heart
meridian, on the kidney meridian, on the spleen meridian and
also local treatment of theabdominal area that can help
(35:57):
restore the holistic imbalance.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Now.
Are there any risks associatedwith acupuncture?
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Oh, yes, it's a very good question.
A lot of people are curiousabout the risk.
Acupuncture is a very safe one,down by a trained professional,
so the risks are minimal.
But we have seen there somepeople might have some mild
bruising.
I want to put some needles onmild bruising and also some
(36:27):
soreness where the needles go in.
So the soreness may be the sameday, the evening, because the
body has some muscles andresponse for the needle, and
also maybe the second day peoplefeel the soreness.
But this is mild.
And also it's important to makesure your acupuncture is
(36:48):
licensed or your practitioner islicensed, because some areas,
if we put the needle too deep,we have to know how deep the
needles go and also we need touse the sterile needles.
So today we always use thedisposable, just the one-time
(37:09):
use needles.
We shouldn't use the reusedneedles.
This is the one thing.
And also for some people whohave the blood issue, the blood
disease or cardiovascular issue,they are taking the blood
thinners.
That is something we need toknow.
So tell your acupuncturist oryour doctor that you are taking
(37:32):
the blood thinners or sometimesyou're taking some other
medication maybe has somecirculation impacting your
circulation and anticoagulantand anti-platelet medication.
That is we need to know becausesometimes if we put a needle
(37:53):
and withdraw the needle, pullout and take out the needle,
there is some bleeding.
That bleeding is very mildbleeding.
Just a push press for maybe oneminute.
That should be fine, but somepeople are taking the blood
thinner.
We need to press for a longertime.
There maybe has some bleedinginside.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
And how often or how many times is acupuncture needed
?
Yeah, it depends.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It depends on the person and the condition be
treated.
Some people feel better afterjust one session, but some
chronic condition you reallyneed a few weeks, six weeks, 12
weeks of the regular treatment.
Typically a plan might be onceor twice a week.
(38:40):
This is typically the plan andalso, for example, for the pain
management if someone come herewith the pain about the six or
eight.
So with the regular treatmentonce or twice a week, so we
reduce the pain to two,sometimes two or three, yeah,
from seven, eight to two, threeand then the next treatment
(39:03):
which can do less often.
So we can do every other weekor every three weeks.
That is just to keep the verylow.
Yeah because for the chronicissue it's hard to say we can
100% fix it.
Yeah, for the chronic pain ifthe pain is a very high.
Eight, nine, that is, yeah,very absolutely we need to treat
(39:25):
it.
But if pain is just one or two,maybe we don't need to treat it
.
But it's pain is just one ortwo, maybe we don't need to
treat just us people.
Do some self-stretching,self-maintenance, that can help.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
We don't need acupuncture anymore and any
final tips or words of advicefor our listeners okay, thank
you.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
So final tips if you are curious about acupuncture,
give it a try.
Yeah, it's worth to try.
It's not painful, it's nothurting.
So yeah, it's gentle, naturalway to support your health and
also it can be a great additionto your overall wellness routine
.
Yeah, but that just to makesure.
(40:05):
Once again, just make sure tosee a licensed acupuncturist or
any practitioner.
We know today medical doctorswith acupuncture training and
also with the nurse practitioner, the physician assistant and
also chiropractor, the PT.
They all have to plan thecurriculum of the acupuncture
(40:32):
treatment and the training.
So if you see your practitioner, you have to make sure they
have the license acupuncturelicense to train.
So that is also very important.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
And how can one determine if someone does have a
license?
Is there like a website or acertain specific credential that
we should look for?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
So for the acupuncturist, everybody,
everyone who practiceacupuncture, as acupuncturist,
they must have the certificate,the acupuncture license.
Or I think maybe only threestates in the United States do
not need acupuncture certificate.
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, only three.
What are those three states?
I do not remember.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
So we have totally 50 .
There are only three.
We can check the.
If you want to check, you cango to the website of the NCCAOM.
Nccaom is a national committeeof the certification committee,
so they have the map of theacupuncture license map.
(41:43):
I remember three states they donot require the certificate.
They can practice acupuncture,only three.
But Ohio absolutely needacupuncture certificate.
And yeah, this is this is the.
Yeah, this is what I want tosay.
Maybe this is the final tips,but not only just acupuncturist
(42:07):
for other practitioner like themedical doctor or chiropractor,
I think they they these.
They need to receive sometraining program.
Yeah, go to training program.
This.
You should have somecertificate with the acupuncture
training or dry needle intraining.
Dry needle is similar, so maybesomeone doesn't.
(42:27):
So, maybe someone doesn't likeit, but I think with my
experience, I think dry needlingis similar, but dry needling
focuses on the musculoskeletalsystem.
Acupuncture covers more thanthe musculoskeletal.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Much more comprehensive.
Yes, Well, we'll include someof this in our show notes and if
our listeners want to get intouch with you or see you as a
patient or any social media, arethere any contacts that you
want our listeners to know about?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Okay, so I'm a full-time faculty and an
employee at Cleveland Clinic.
If you want to see me, just goto the Cleveland Clinic website
official website and search thefind Dr Gene Fan.
You can find me and there aremy information and also the
(43:21):
phone number.
You can call them to makeappointment with me and also if
you have some questions, maybe Ithink Dr Thacker has some.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Dr Thacker, do you have any way to have our
audience can reach out to you orto some, because the yes, yes,
actually, on ourspeakingofwomenshealthcom
there's a contact us, so ifthere's any specific questions
that people have, you cancommunicate that way with us and
(44:00):
we will push out Dr Jing Fang'scontact information on our
social media.
And I encourage our listenersto go on
speakingofwomenshealthcombecause we do have some content
on acupuncture.
I think we probably need somemore content and thank you so
much, doctor, for joining us onthe Speaking of Women's Health
(44:23):
podcast.
This was so enlightening andthanks to our loyal listeners
for tuning in for anotherepisode.
Please be sure to subscribe forfree.
You can subscribe on ApplePodcasts, spotify TuneIn,
wherever you listen to podcasts,and if you enjoyed this episode
and you want to support thepodcast, share it with others.
welcome to the speaking of women's health
podcast.
I'm your host, dr holly thacker, the executive director of
speaking of women's health, andI am back in the sunflower house
for a new episode episode, andon this episode I am
interviewing Dr Jing Fan to talkabout acupuncture.
(00:31):
And he is so well educated suchan impressive background.
He has an undergraduate degreein surgery of Chinese medicine
and he has a master's degree inclinical medicine from Nanjing
(00:53):
University in China.
He also completed a fellowshipin Chinese medicine and a
fellowship in orthopedic surgeryfrom Shanghai Jiao Tong
University.
After all this training, hewent to Harvard Medical School
in Boston to complete a PhD intranslational medicine and he
(01:19):
currently works in the wellnessand preventventive Medicine
Department at Cleveland Clinic.
Wow, such an impressivebackground.
Welcome to the Speaking ofWomen's Health podcast, dr Fan.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thanks so much, dr Decker, for that kind
introduction.
I'm really excited to be hereon the Speaking of Women's
Health podcast.
I'm looking forward to chatwith you about acupuncture, how
it works and how it can helppeople feel their best.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
This is such an important topic.
In fact, after I got back fromone of my sessions with you the
other day for my shoulder and Ithink we're going to post
pictures of my shoulder with allthe different acupuncture
needles in it One of our nursepractitioners who's been on this
podcast, kelsey Kennedy, andshe said it was fine for me to
use her name I'm not breakingany confidences.
(02:14):
She's like I'm the one whofound him.
He's the best.
I said well, you didn't tell methat, I just found him too.
But now we're going to let allof our listeners from 80
different countries who arelistening in and even if they're
not able to come to ClevelandClinic to see you I think it's
so important for our listenersto understand Tell us what is
(02:39):
acupuncture.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Okay, thank you so much for inviting me here.
So acupuncture is a key part ofthe traditional Chinese
medicine, or we can call it thetraditional, maybe oriental,
medicine, not only in Chinesebut also in Japan, korea, a lot
of the Asian areas.
So that has been practiced forthousands of years.
(03:01):
So the first book we learned inChinese medicine acupuncture is
about 3,000 years ago.
So it involved inserting verythin sterile needles into the
specific point on the body.
We call this point acupuncturepoint or acupoints.
So these points are locatedalong the pathways.
(03:22):
We call them meridians, so theyare believed to carry energy,
which we call qi.
So, yeah, it helps thecirculation of energy
circulation and balancing ofenergy.
The goal of the acupuncture isto restore the balance of the
flow of the qi and help the bodyheal itself.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So interesting and it's such a long therapy to be
around for thousands of yearsand that's the one thing that
Kelsey said to me is anythingthat doesn't work or isn't
impressive wouldn't have lastedthis long.
So tell us, how doesacupuncture work and are there
(04:04):
different types of acupuncture?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yes.
So yes, we have the two.
We can call it the concept ofacupuncture.
One is the traditionalacupuncture, one is the modern
acupuncture, because we havebeen practicing, the Asian
people have been practicingacupuncture for thousands of
years.
So the idea, philosophy they'reusing is qi right.
(04:31):
So the energy they want to movethe energy, they want to
promote energy flow.
But today, more and moreresearch we did, we found
acupuncture works by stimulatingthe point on the body and help
the balance with a lot of thescientific research of the
(04:52):
pathways.
So the first mechanism ofacupuncture is the local effects
.
So when we insert needle in theplace of the area, so it
triggers some response.
We call the reflex, theresponse in the surrounding
tissue.
So this increase the blood flowand release some natural
(05:14):
chemicals like the endorphins,so which reduce the pain and
promote healing.
Yes, a lot of the applicationof acupuncture, like for the
muscular skeletal pain, wasusing this effect effects.
So this we call the localeffects.
It can remove the, theinflammation and reduce the
(05:37):
muscle tension.
The second pathway, secondmechanism, is also another
reflex, but we call thesomato-autonomic reflex.
So this is the reflex, theacupuncture tap into the body's
autonomic nervous system whichcontrols the function like we
(05:59):
have internal organ, like thedigestion, the heart rate and
blood pressure.
So there are a little bitcomplicated, sorry.
So there are two pathway, onesegmental, one is the brain
level.
Segmental happens within thesingle spinal segment.
For example, if we putacupuncture needles on the
(06:23):
abdominal area so it may improvethe stomach function by calming
the nerves connected to thatspecific spinal segment.
That is the segmental pathway.
Another one is a brain levelpathway.
Brain level pathway is thesignals travels to the brain
first and then influence thebody.
So, for example, stimulatingpoints on arms and the legs we
(06:47):
call the meridians.
We put the needle on thestomach meridian, large
intestine meridian, the stomachlarge intestine, not on the
trunk but the meridian on armsand legs.
So it can improve the digestionand the cardiovascular function
through the reflex involving thebrain and the nerves, like the
vigorous nerve.
So this is the reflex.
(07:10):
And also we can see some systemas the systemic effects we call
this is a neural transmittersin the brain.
So Acupuncture, we can see alot of the example.
Acupuncture help regulate thebrain.
Chemicals like the serotoninand the dopamine, yeah, which
play a role, very important roletoday we can use acupuncture
(07:33):
help the mood issue.
So disorder of the mood andalso pain control and even
addiction.
So this is yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
It is so fascinating, so it sounds like it's
incredibly holistic.
It deals with the whole bodythe musculoskeletal system, the
brain, the neural pathways, thenatural opiate system in the
body, as well as theneurotransmitters.
So no wonder it treats so manythings.
At first, when I heard about itbeing used for so many
(08:07):
different things, I thought, oh,this just is too good to be
true, because, like I tell mylisteners, anything too good to
be true usually is.
But apparently we have anexception here with acupuncture.
Tell us about how you useacupuncture to help people quit
smoking and addictions.
That's something that plagues alot of people.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yes, so yes, because we a clinic to help people quit
(08:47):
the smoking and help people quitthe addiction for the drug use.
So usually we combine the bodyacupuncture, that is, we put a
needle on the arm, the leg,sometimes the scalp, the top of
the head, head, and also wecombine this needle with the ear
needle, auricular needle.
(09:08):
Yeah, because why, auricular,because this area, the ear outer
area, that is the areas theweakest nerve, inner weight.
So, yes, we, when we stimulatethis area, we can stimulate the
vagus nerve.
That is played an importantrole to help the people to quit
the addiction and quit smoking.
(09:28):
So this is a very popular use.
We have also an organization wecall NADA.
Nada is an organization foundedand based in New York City and
this is a worldwide, globalorganization to help people quit
addiction.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
That's excellent.
Does it help with foodaddictions?
Because, of course, obesity issomething that, at least in
America, we deal with on such awidespread basis.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, this is another application of the acupuncture,
so it's not just in America butalso all the world worldwide
issue.
In China we have a lot of theoverweighted people also.
So, yeah, so I know maybeyou're not familiar how popular
(10:19):
acupuncture in China.
We have the night clinic, notclinic or the evening clinic.
We can call it night clinicbecause we open until 9 to 10 pm
the day.
So this clinic, especially forpeople for the weight loss yeah,
with control.
So when they finish their wholeday's work they went to the
(10:42):
hospital, the clinic.
They can help manage their bodyweight.
So for this type of treatmentwe combined the abdominal needle
with the extremity needles, theneedles on the arms and legs
Abdominal needle.
Usually we combine with theelectrical stimulation.
(11:03):
Electrical acupuncture orelectrical stimulation involves
a gentle electric current passedbetween the needles to enhance
the stimulation.
This is very effective for theweight loss because a lot of
people report after the needle,after the need only.
So the the they feel the needlehelp reduce the cravings and
(11:29):
also improve the digestion andsupport the metabolism.
So it's not like the medicationor drugs for the for the weight
loss a lot of side effects, butacupuncture they didn't feel
any side effect but they feel,feel, yeah, so they can
constantly feel the improvementof their weight management.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
That is fascinating and I think when people who've
never had acupuncture hear aboutneedles or hear about
electrical stimulation, itsounds scary.
But I can tell you personally Ihad acupuncture years ago for
tennis elbow.
I went from playing tennis oncea week to twice a week and I
have bad tendons, as mylisteners know, and I didn't
(12:11):
want a steroid injection.
And one of our gynecologists onstaff was also trained in
acupuncture and she's like, ohcome on, let's do it.
I just had the plain needles,it wasn't painful and I was so
improved and happy that I didn'thave to take medications or get
a steroid injection.
And then fast forward.
Several years later I decided tolift a lot more weights and
(12:34):
increase it too much and strainmy old tendons and came to see
you and you also have appliedthe electrical stimulation and
it's an interesting feeling.
It's not painful at all andafterwards it almost feels like
you've either worked out yourmuscles or I felt very relaxed,
(12:55):
almost like I had had a massagein a kind of a different way.
Is that the neurochemicals inthe brain?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So, yes, I just mentioned themany pathways.
So, yeah, so for the pain issue, for the pain issue, it's more
than the pathway I mentioned.
It also has another like thefascial network.
Yeah, so that is the newer ideathat explains how acupuncture
(13:23):
can help the collected tissues,the fascia.
We know we are a lot of thewhole body full of all of the
fascia.
Fascia is a network of thetissue running through the body.
It may act as the pathway foreffective acupuncture.
Also, stimulating the pointsmight improve how the body
(13:48):
communicates the heals itselfwith the fascia system.
So that is why acupunctureworks very well.
For the pain issue, we all knowthe Ohio Medicaid covered
acupuncture with seven.
Let me see one, two, three,four, five, six, yeah, seven.
I remember seven conditionslike the acute post-operative
(14:10):
pain, cervical pain, low backpain, migraines, osteoarthritis
of the hip and knee and also onemore very interesting nausea or
vomiting related to thepregnancy and the chemotherapy.
So that's it.
All of this is covered by theOhio Medicaid.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh my, I wish I would have known about it.
I had terrible nausea with mypregnancies.
In fact, it was so terrible Ican't believe I got pregnant as
many times as I did, because itwas terrible to feel nauseated
all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And so it's safe in pregnancy then, yeah yes,
because for the pregnancy weknow some point is not good to
use.
Some points are good to use.
So because for the pregnancy weknow a lot of people are
concerned about takingmedication because maybe not
good for the baby.
So yeah, but the acupuncture isvery safe.
(15:09):
There's no side effect like thedrug.
But the WCM helped with thereflex, can help to sedate the
nausea and the vomiting.
So usually we put the needle onthe upper stomach, not lower
but upper stomach and also theneedle on the wrist area,
sometimes just the, and also wecan add one point on the knee
(15:34):
area.
So we just put maybe threeneedles or sometimes four
needles.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
We can help the nausea a lot Wow, sometimes four
needles.
We can help the nausea a lotWow.
I'm gonna have to have ourexecutive producer and our
social media manager, leeKleckar, update lots of our
pages, like from migraineheadache to low back pain to we
have a lot of information aboutnausea.
In pregnancy.
I used a little bit of b6 andthen those acupressure bands,
but it probably would have beena lot better just to come in and
(16:05):
get the needle.
Does it stimulate fasterdigestion?
Because what I thought, why Iwas so nauseated is like my
stomach just never emptied.
The food would just sit therefor hours.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So for all the digestion issues, not only
stomach issues but also bowelmovement issues, acupuncture
works very well for that.
Acupuncture can work for eitherconstipation or diarrhea.
So this is very interesting.
So some people have diarrhea,we can fix it.
Some people have constipation,also we can fix it.
(16:40):
And sometimes these two typesof treatments are similar also
can fix it.
And sometimes these two typesof treatment are similar.
That means the acupuncture, theacupoint treatment, the
medulline stimulating the point,can have the bidirection effect
on the whole body.
That is what we call restorethe balance Fascinating.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
And is this something for children?
Is there any kind of an agelimit in terms of?
Is it for cooperation or justdevelopment of the nervous
system?
It depends.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
It depends on how sensitive the children are, how
the kind of education we educateour children about acupuncture.
In China for the kids,acupuncture for the children is
a very popular use.
So usually five years, sixyears children we can use
(17:30):
acupuncture also, and also I didacupuncture for my daughter
once.
They're maybe three years old.
It's okay for some of them,they're just scared, they cry.
But when I put a needle it'sokay, it's not hurting.
Yeah, this is kind of education, but usually I because I'm not
a pediatric acupuncturistusually I works for the patient
(17:55):
about eight years or nine yearsabout, because I think they can
control their emotion andcontrol their behavior better.
So I'm so when I see the babycry my heart breaks.
So I have to admit I'm not agood pediatric acupuncturist.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
It's definitely a different skill.
I know when I rotated inmedical school with pediatrics
Definitely a different skill.
I know when I rotated inmedical school with pediatrics I
was like this is not for me, Ijust want to deal with adults.
So it is a different skill setand just like in so many fields
of medicine.
But you have been listening tothe Speaking of Women's Health
podcast and I'm your host, drHolly Thacker I am interviewing
(18:40):
Dr Jing Fan, who is trained inorthopedic surgery, acupuncture
and also translational medicine.
He's done extensive research sohe really understands all the
whole biology, physiology,pathology, anatomy and has
studied several differentaspects of medicine.
(19:04):
And we're talking about howacupuncture works.
It works for lots of painconditions, including chronic
lower back pain.
We have a podcast on sciatica.
Migraine headaches certainlyare a big problem.
Half the population has them.
I had a podcast on migraineheadaches but I didn't include
anything about acupuncture Now Ifeel like I'm deficient and
(19:26):
some other women's health topics.
You were telling me menstrualcramps.
I mean we deal with painfulmenstrual periods all the time
in our Center for SpecializedWomen's Health and a lot of
times use medication or hormonalmanipulation.
But you've got a needle totreat that right.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes, yeah, so the acupuncture because acupuncture
works with the nervous system,works with the endocrine system
and also works with sometimesworks, that we can see the
evidence to see acupuncture canhelp the immune system.
And so this is all of thismechanism.
(20:04):
So combined we can seeacupuncture works very well for
the menstrual cycle regulationand also sometimes the menopause
and hot flashes.
It's not only the pain but alsothe help.
This restore the cycle, theregular cycle and also the
infertility.
(20:25):
So the mechanism is what wecall the neuroendocrine effect.
The neuroendocrine effectregulates the hormones, not like
the estrogen, progesterone, butit's more come from works more
from the hypothalamus and theputeri.
So the glands, we see thecentral nerve system.
(20:46):
We know there is an axlebetween the central nerve and
the target organ, the glands.
Acupuncture can regulate thestimulating hormone and then can
help the feedback, the hormonefeedback.
So you know, I see a lot of mypatients who have the menstrual
(21:07):
cycle issue is because they'reusing some fake hormone.
Yeah, so they are using thebirth control pill to improve
their sensitivity of thefeedback and regulate and
promote our natural hormoneproduction and that can help
that.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Excellent.
Now, when I asked you before,are there some conditions that
we should know that peopleshould get immediate treatment
for acupuncture?
You mentioned Bell's palsy, sotell us what Bell's palsy is and
why it's important for someoneto get acupuncture if they
develop this facial paralysis.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, acupuncture helps restore the muscle
function and also nerve activityin the face.
So we know the local effectimproves blood flow and helps
repair the damaged facial nerve.
If the blood flow improved, allthe damaged tissue improved.
So that is the one.
And also the fascia networksupports the muscle recovery
(22:09):
also, and you know, theacupuncture not only helps the
function of the muscle but alsocan have some systemic effect to
reduce the stress.
Also can help the healing.
Usually, you know, in China theBell's palsy is the main
(22:30):
condition, acupuncture cover.
This is the main condition.
Everybody knows who has theBell's palsy.
They should go to acupuncturefirst.
So yeah, so within the firstweek.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know that until you
educated me, and I would thinkthat people would.
If their regular allopathicphysician doesn't tell them
about that, they wouldn't know.
And so you say that they mighthave the paralysis for several
months, longer than they mightotherwise have.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, so today a lot of people assume the Bell's
palsy can be healed by itselfwithout any treatment.
But in my experience I seemaybe 80% is good but the sum
maybe 10% or 20% is not good,the prognosis is not good.
With acupuncture we can reducethe risk for the long term, the
(23:23):
problem of the Bell's Palsy.
So my experience, the fastest,fastest, fastest recovery is
just two weeks, two weeks.
So everything is good,everything is recovered and some
people maybe need four weeks.
The treatment, usually the, Ithink the medium the time, the
(23:47):
recovery time is about three tofour weeks with acupuncture
fully recovered without anyproblem.
Yeah, so that is the what I see, acupuncture and the same for
the stroke.
You know, stroke is worse.
It's more, much, much moresevere than the Bell's palsy
because Bell's palsy is aperipheral nerve problem.
(24:07):
But, stroke is a central nerve.
It's a brain problem, centralnerve problem.
So the recovery period for thestroke is much longer than the
Bell's palsy.
But yes, so stroke is anothercondition in China.
Everybody knows acupuncture canhelp.
So when they got stroke theyalways go to the acupuncture
(24:30):
doctors to treat.
For the treatment for thestroke we can see with
acupuncture, without acupuncture, we can see significant
difference between these twogroups between these two groups.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Wow, that is something, because stroke can be
so devastating in any type ofparalysis, whether it's
peripheral nerve, like Bell'spalsy, or central nervous system
.
Now I'm curious about theosteoarthritis indications,
because when I look at x-rays ofjoints hips, knees, hands and
you see bone on bone, you wouldthink it's end stage.
(25:06):
So is it just pain relief?
Or I mean, as far as I know, wecan't regenerate cartilage,
which loss of cartilage and thejoint imbalance is a major part
of the problem.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
This is a very good question, this is a very good
(25:46):
question.
This is also, I can is the mainmanifestation or phenomenon of
the osteoarthritis.
But the cause of osteoarthritisis more than that.
Why the cartilage damage?
Why we can see the bone on bone.
That is something we need tofix first right.
So we are born with healthy,everybody born with healthy.
(26:11):
But why we developedosteoarthritis that is because
of the imbalance of soft tissue.
We can see most of people whohas osteoarthritis with the
deformity of the alignment ofthe knee.
Some people have varus orvalgus because the knee bending
inside or bending outside.
That is what we call thedeformities of the joint.
(26:33):
Why it happened?
Because the joint, the capsuleor the ligament around joint
lose the balance.
One side is tighter thananother side.
That is why the body's weightloading more on inside or
outside more than another side.
That is cause the compartment,the damage, the cartilage damage
(26:57):
in one compartment.
We seldom see both of the.
Just for the knee, for example.
For the knee osteoarthritis wehave two compartments.
One is the medial, one is thelateral.
Most of the osteoarthritishappened in the medial side.
Why medial side?
Because the medial, theligament is more likely to
(27:19):
develop, the tighten and shorten.
So then the outer side, themedial side is more stable and
the more thickness than theouter side.
So that is why when we becauseI did a lot of the knee
replacement in China when I wasworking in hospital in China we
found that when we replace theknee, the knee replacement
(27:42):
surgery, we found sometimes wejust replace the medial side
only, it also can work.
It also works we don't have toreplace the whole knee.
But the key point is we need to,after surgery or during the
surgery, we need to restore thetissue balance, soft tissue
balance, the ligament balance.
(28:03):
That is more important than toreplace the bone of the knee.
So acupuncture works.
Acupuncture is very fine needle.
We know it doesn't change thestructure of the knee but it can
help not only the pain.
Pain is absolutely.
Acupuncture helps the pain.
Yeah, with a lot of reflex,reflex that changed our pain
sensation and also the bloodcirculation.
(28:26):
But acupuncture usually mystrategy of treating the knee
pain or all type of pain issue.
I wanted to do the needling onthe specific point to restore
the balance of soft tissue.
That means restore the balanceof soft tissue.
That means to release thetightened side and reinforce the
loose side.
(28:46):
So that is the way I treat thepain issue, especially for
osteoarthritis.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So it sounds like it's very complementary.
You could do it in place ofsomething more invasive.
On the other hand, if someonedoes undergo back surgery or
knee surgery or hip surgery,they still obviously need rehab
and physical therapy and paincontrol and realignment, which
it sounds like you knowacupuncture helps in those
(29:14):
realms.
So that is so fascinating.
Are there other healthconditions that acupuncture can
help with, like cancer?
Is there any contraindicationsthat you can't do?
Acupuncture in certain patients?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
So cancer is a very wide application.
Acupuncture can help so cancerand also the treatment of the
cancer, because we all knowchemotherapy has a lot of side
effects, like the neuropathy,like the digestion issues and
also some other immunityproblems.
(29:52):
So acupuncture works for thecancer itself.
We have seen a lot of thepapers, articles, reports that
acupuncture improves immunityand also anti-inflammation and
also sometimes acupuncture can,because acupuncture promote a
holistic health.
It also can help for the cancertreatment also.
(30:15):
But acupuncture works more likethe nausea, fatigue and pain
during the cancer treatment, thechemotherapy treatment,
radiotherapy treatment and alsoacupuncture help with the
patient's stress, the cancerPeople who has cancer a lot of
(30:36):
stress, very high stress.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Oh, yes, and improve sleep.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
acupuncture improve sleep, that is can help people
improve the mood and energy.
This is one for application forthe cancer and also acupuncture
.
Yeah, we just discussed thepain management, the weight
management, the nerves and thosequit smoking, and acupuncture
(31:00):
works for the one.
We.
Because I have been teachingacupuncture in China, in the
United States, for 20 yearsalmost 20 years, wow.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
You don't look old enough to have done all this.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I'm pretty old, so yeah, so acupuncture when we
learn, when we are teachingacupuncture in class, so we
teach our students.
Acupuncture works for thestroke, common cold, asthma,
vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, urinary issue, mental health
(31:38):
issue, dizziness, headaches,joint pain, all type pain, belt
pulses, sciatica, mental issue,tinnitus and hearing loss.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Oh yes, Tinnitus seems to be a huge problem that
patients are just driven crazywith.
So how is it that acupuncturehelps tinnitus, which is ringing
in the ears?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yes.
So the hearing issue.
We all know hearing issue isthe problem.
It's a big problem.
We don't have a lot of goodsolution for that issue, Usually
for acupuncture treatment, notonly for the hearing problem but
also for all type problem,because we learned the mechanism
(32:21):
I mentioned.
We need a local treatment andwith the distal treatment, the
local treatment works on thelocal reflex and also improves
the local healing of the nerve,local healing of the
inflammation, local healing ofthe tissue damage.
And the distal treatment we putthe needles for example, people
(32:42):
who have tinnitus and then weput a needle not only in the ear
, around the ear, but also weput needle on the arms.
We put needle on not only inthe ear, around the ear, but
also we put needle on the arms,with the needle on the legs and
the toes, the fingers, that theclose, the finger toes.
That is we call the meridian,so some meridian.
They connect to the ear.
There are maybe about sixmeridians to connect to the ears
(33:04):
.
We put a needle on thismeridian.
That also can improve thehearing, the functions.
So but because the tinnitus andhearing issue is very
complicated.
So when we see the reason,there are many reasons for that
one.
So acupuncture also need to seewhat type of the issue and also
we do the different plan forthis issue.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
And I've certainly seen patients who've undergone
all sorts of invasive, expensiveinfertility treatments who then
have acupuncture and getpregnant Is it primarily through
reducing stress, but alsorebalancing the hormones as well
?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yes, it's not only for the stress but also for the
hormone, hormonal balancing.
So when we treat theinfertility the same, we need to
put some needle in the lowerabdominal areas.
We have some point.
We call the uterine points.
We have some points, yeah, wecall the infertility points.
(34:08):
And also we put some needle onthe legs, meaning the legs.
The legs can have some insideof the meridian.
We call it three in meridian,there are three in meridians.
So this meridian helped collectto the vaginal area, connect to
the reproductive system.
(34:28):
That not only for the fertilitybut also can help the bladder
problem.
The bladder and also can helpthe bowel movement also can work
for that and also acupuncture.
Because, yeah, I just mentionedthat infertility is not only
the target organ problem, notonly the overall problem, not
(34:51):
only the uterus problem, butalso the hypothalamus and the
pituitary imbalance between theheart.
The bottom is kidney.
So heart is our mind, because Ihave a brave heart.
(35:13):
Heart means that it's not thishard.
A brave heart is not.
That means my heart is strongbut my mind, my brain is strong.
And also the kidney.
In Chinese medicine that is thefunction of the hormone, of the
endocrine system function.
So the heart and kidneyconnection that represent in the
Western medicine that is thehypothalamus, pituitary and
(35:36):
overall axils.
So when we do the treatment weneed to do some top treatment.
That means the needle on thescalp area that can help the
release the stress, and then weput a needle on the heart
meridian, on the kidney meridian, on the spleen meridian and
also local treatment of theabdominal area that can help
(35:57):
restore the holistic imbalance.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Now.
Are there any risks associatedwith acupuncture?
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Oh, yes, it's a very good question.
A lot of people are curiousabout the risk.
Acupuncture is a very safe one,down by a trained professional,
so the risks are minimal.
But we have seen there somepeople might have some mild
bruising.
I want to put some needles onmild bruising and also some
(36:27):
soreness where the needles go in.
So the soreness may be the sameday, the evening, because the
body has some muscles andresponse for the needle, and
also maybe the second day peoplefeel the soreness.
But this is mild.
And also it's important to makesure your acupuncture is
(36:48):
licensed or your practitioner islicensed, because some areas,
if we put the needle too deep,we have to know how deep the
needles go and also we need touse the sterile needles.
So today we always use thedisposable, just the one-time
(37:09):
use needles.
We shouldn't use the reusedneedles.
This is the one thing.
And also for some people whohave the blood issue, the blood
disease or cardiovascular issue,they are taking the blood
thinners.
That is something we need toknow.
So tell your acupuncturist oryour doctor that you are taking
(37:32):
the blood thinners or sometimesyou're taking some other
medication maybe has somecirculation impacting your
circulation and anticoagulantand anti-platelet medication.
That is we need to know becausesometimes if we put a needle
(37:53):
and withdraw the needle, pullout and take out the needle,
there is some bleeding.
That bleeding is very mildbleeding.
Just a push press for maybe oneminute.
That should be fine, but somepeople are taking the blood
thinner.
We need to press for a longertime.
There maybe has some bleedinginside.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
And how often or how many times is acupuncture needed
?
Yeah, it depends.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It depends on the person and the condition be
treated.
Some people feel better afterjust one session, but some
chronic condition you reallyneed a few weeks, six weeks, 12
weeks of the regular treatment.
Typically a plan might be onceor twice a week.
(38:40):
This is typically the plan andalso, for example, for the pain
management if someone come herewith the pain about the six or
eight.
So with the regular treatmentonce or twice a week, so we
reduce the pain to two,sometimes two or three, yeah,
from seven, eight to two, threeand then the next treatment
(39:03):
which can do less often.
So we can do every other weekor every three weeks.
That is just to keep the verylow.
Yeah because for the chronicissue it's hard to say we can
100% fix it.
Yeah, for the chronic pain ifthe pain is a very high.
Eight, nine, that is, yeah,very absolutely we need to treat
(39:25):
it.
But if pain is just one or two,maybe we don't need to treat it
.
But it's pain is just one ortwo, maybe we don't need to
treat just us people.
Do some self-stretching,self-maintenance, that can help.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
We don't need acupuncture anymore and any
final tips or words of advicefor our listeners okay, thank
you.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
So final tips if you are curious about acupuncture,
give it a try.
Yeah, it's worth to try.
It's not painful, it's nothurting.
So yeah, it's gentle, naturalway to support your health and
also it can be a great additionto your overall wellness routine
.
Yeah, but that just to makesure.
(40:05):
Once again, just make sure tosee a licensed acupuncturist or
any practitioner.
We know today medical doctorswith acupuncture training and
also with the nurse practitioner, the physician assistant and
also chiropractor, the PT.
They all have to plan thecurriculum of the acupuncture
(40:32):
treatment and the training.
So if you see your practitioner, you have to make sure they
have the license acupuncturelicense to train.
So that is also very important.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
And how can one determine if someone does have a
license?
Is there like a website or acertain specific credential that
we should look for?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
So for the acupuncturist, everybody,
everyone who practiceacupuncture, as acupuncturist,
they must have the certificate,the acupuncture license.
Or I think maybe only threestates in the United States do
not need acupuncture certificate.
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, only three.
What are those three states?
I do not remember.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
So we have totally 50 .
There are only three.
We can check the.
If you want to check, you cango to the website of the NCCAOM.
Nccaom is a national committeeof the certification committee,
so they have the map of theacupuncture license map.
(41:43):
I remember three states they donot require the certificate.
They can practice acupuncture,only three.
But Ohio absolutely needacupuncture certificate.
And yeah, this is this is the.
Yeah, this is what I want tosay.
Maybe this is the final tips,but not only just acupuncturist
(42:07):
for other practitioner like themedical doctor or chiropractor,
I think they they these.
They need to receive sometraining program.
Yeah, go to training program.
This.
You should have somecertificate with the acupuncture
training or dry needle intraining.
Dry needle is similar, so maybesomeone doesn't.
(42:27):
So, maybe someone doesn't likeit, but I think with my
experience, I think dry needlingis similar, but dry needling
focuses on the musculoskeletalsystem.
Acupuncture covers more thanthe musculoskeletal.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Much more comprehensive.
Yes, Well, we'll include someof this in our show notes and if
our listeners want to get intouch with you or see you as a
patient or any social media, arethere any contacts that you
want our listeners to know about?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Okay, so I'm a full-time faculty and an
employee at Cleveland Clinic.
If you want to see me, just goto the Cleveland Clinic website
official website and search thefind Dr Gene Fan.
You can find me and there aremy information and also the
(43:21):
phone number.
You can call them to makeappointment with me and also if
you have some questions, maybe Ithink Dr Thacker has some.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Dr Thacker, do you have any way to have our
audience can reach out to you orto some, because the yes, yes,
actually, on ourspeakingofwomenshealthcom
there's a contact us, so ifthere's any specific questions
that people have, you cancommunicate that way with us and
(44:00):
we will push out Dr Jing Fang'scontact information on our
social media.
And I encourage our listenersto go on
speakingofwomenshealthcombecause we do have some content
on acupuncture.
I think we probably need somemore content and thank you so
much, doctor, for joining us onthe Speaking of Women's Health
(44:23):
podcast.
This was so enlightening andthanks to our loyal listeners
for tuning in for anotherepisode.
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