Creating Trust and Value: Communication Lessons for Leaders from Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

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Have you ever wondered why empathy is often considered a “soft skill,” and whether it truly has a place in driving real results within leadership, organizations, and communication? On this week’s episode of Speaking with Confidence, I tackle this question head-on with my guest, Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, an expert in empathy, emotional intelligence, and visionary leadership.

I’m Tim Newman, your host–a recovering college professor turned communication coach. Every week, I help listeners build the skills and confidence they need to show up powerfully in every conversation. Today, I’m thrilled to welcome Dr. Winemiller, whose mission is to help leaders become future visionaries by making empathy skills-based, data-driven, and results-oriented. Melissa brings a rich background as both a world-traveling musician and a former academic who has dedicated her life to understanding and teaching empathy for profit, productivity, and innovation.

Our conversation kicks off with Melissa’s fascinating backstory: how a lifelong passion for music took her across the globe, on tours and prestigious stages, and even saw her playing French horn alongside legends like Ray Charles and conversing with David Ogden Steers (MAS*H’s Winchester). As Melissa shares, her journey from the world of performance to academia—and ultimately to empathy research—was shaped by witnessing both the highs of artistic connection and the lows of broken, unempathetic systems.

Here's what we covered:

• Melissa’s journey from international touring musician to empathy expert and academic
• Life and communication lessons from the world of music performance
• The vulnerability of public speaking versus musical performance
• Teaching and connecting with students through listening and individualized communication
• The real impact of empathy (and lack thereof) in education and business
• Why empathy is undervalued—and how research supports its ROI
• Strategies for leaders to foster trust, engagement, and innovation through empathy
• The Johari Window model for communication and self-awareness
• The difference between kindness and niceness in leadership and business
• Practical ways to build empathy in teams and organizations (plus when real change requires a leadership overhaul)
• The case for embedding empathy in educational systems from an early age
• Real world examples from Melissa’s book about the financial and human costs of broken organizations
• Where to find Melissa’s book, connect online, and catch her TEDx talk (soon to be released!)

Melissa’s insights go far beyond theory—they’re deeply rooted in lived experience, rigorous research, and a powerful vision for future-forward leadership. Don’t miss this episode if you want to learn how to use empathy not just to “feel good,” but to drive lasting, meaningful results in your work and life.

Thanks for joining me—Tim Newman—on this journey to speaking with confidence. Be sure to check out speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com for your free eBook, “Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them,” and stay tuned for our next episode!

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Episode Transcript

Tim Newman (00:10):
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead you to
real results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor, turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on a
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is Dr.

(00:30):
Melissa Robinson Weinmiller.
Dr.
Weinmiller's goal is to helpleaders become the visionaries
of the future by teaching themhow to use empathy as something
that's skills-based,data-driven, and
outcomes-oriented.
After being forced to leaveacademia and a flourishing
musical career, she continued toask how leaders could be so
unempathetic and his system sobroken.

(00:51):
Fast forward, and she's sopassionate about the single
emotional intelligence skillthat she's dedicated her life to
understanding what it is, howwe use it, and how it can drive
profit, productivity, andinnovation.
Whether on the TEDx stage, inher book, or through her
continued research, Melissa'sgoal is to change the world one

(01:12):
heart at a time.
Melissa, welcome to the show.
I'm so excited to talk to youtoday.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (01:18):
Thank you so much for having me, Tim.
I'm so excited to be here.
You and your audience allowingme to be on.
Thank you.

Tim Newman (01:25):
Well, I mean, you you have such an interesting
backstory.
Uh, you were a travelingmusician for a long, long time.
And and can you just, before weget into the weeds, can you
just talk about that a littlebit?
You know, what that was like,you know, the traveling the
world, you know, being onstages, playing music, who you
played with, the, the, the, yourbest memory, all those types of

(01:46):
things that really kind of um,you know, for the lay people
like me, yeah, we we we love welove musicians and the travel
and and we and we think it's allthese other things.
Tell give us a little bit ofbackground on that for us.

Melissa Robinson-Wi (01:57):
Absolutely.
Um, it was all I ever wanted tobe.
Like when I was young, I knew Ididn't know what I wanted.
I mean, you know, I playedpiano a little bit, and it's not
like I came from a musicalfamily.
It just was something that thatI just loved.
So as I got older, I decidedthis is what I was going to do
because I might be broke, but Iwas going to be happy.

(02:18):
You know, musicians aren'tknown for being wealthy.
So, and you know, I I actuallyconsider myself very fortunate
because um I got to do a lot ofthings that I wouldn't have
gotten to do otherwise.
Like I got to go be a soloistin Rome for a summer.
I mean, hang out in Rome for asummer on someone else's dime.

(02:39):
That's terrible.
I don't know what you did.

Tim Newman (02:42):
That's awful.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (02:43):
Oh, the pasta was terrible.
You know, or or I got to tourHungary, I got to tour
Amsterdam, um, I toured all overthe US, and and I got to meet
people that I wouldn't havegotten to meet otherwise.
I got to play with Ray Charles.

Tim Newman (02:59):
And oh my goodness.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (03:00):
I can tell you that he, it's funny
because you know, these people,these big names, they they each
have their own thing.
Like Ray Charles was like,Don't talk to me.
It was in our contract.
Don't talk to me, don't, don'tcommunity, do not approach me,
do not anything.
And it's like, okay, that'sfine.
And then in a different jobthat I did, I was working with

(03:22):
David Ogden Styers.
Um, your audience mightremember him.
He was Winchester on MASH, hewas in Beauty and the Beast,
yeah, that guy.
And um, he was fantastic, hewas brilliant, he wanted to
talk, he was like a French hornplayer.
That's what I played, and hewas a French horn player in his
younger days, and he wanted totalk all about it and was really

(03:42):
warm and open, and you know, soit just it just depended.
But these aren't people that Iwould have met just hanging out,
you know.
I music gave me a lot ofopportunities.
I just wouldn't have hadotherwise.

Tim Newman (03:54):
Well, you you you talk about David Ogden Steers.
He actually played the Frenchhorn in a couple episodes of
MASH.
Yes.
So so now now that now thatmakes a whole lot of sense.
I mean, it's and now that Iknow that it it it kind of makes
me think about, you know, wasthat something that that he
said, okay, let's add this, orwas it in the script?
Or you know, it's some of thosethings that make really make

(04:16):
you think about how they putshows together and and really
make you feel like these peopleare are real people, not you not
not a TV show.
That that's amazing.
Um how how did you knowtraveling and and playing music
and and going all over theworld, how how did that inform
you in terms of um life skills,communication skills, the the

(04:41):
whole idea of uh you know howhow we how we actually
communicate with people and andwhat we value from that
communication?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (04:51):
Oh man, it was invaluable.
I mean, if I think about it interms of that, both as a
performer and as a teacher, youknow, because as a performer,
music is one way to communicate.
Like when I was in Rome, I mostof the orchestra was Italian.
So it's not like even among themusicians there was a lot of
communication, you know.
I mean, from the people fromdifferent countries, sure, but

(05:14):
you know, for in between.
But yet when we were makingmusic and the conductor was was
bringing us through whatever itwas, everybody knew exactly what
to do.
We understood thecommunication, we knew how this
was supposed to be, even thoughyou know we couldn't necessarily
have a conversation, we couldabsolutely communicate.

Tim Newman (05:34):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (05:34):
It just, you know, was a different
language, really, you know, andthen to take that and understand
that as you're communicatingwith other people, whether it's
playing from the stage or youknow, touring with these groups,
or in talking to some of thepeople, like I was telling you
about, you know, David and I hadlots of conversations about

(05:56):
music.
We had huge communicationcentered around this.
But the cool thing about it isif you're a musician, whether
you're talking to your audienceor you're talking to other
people or whatever you're doing,you already have something in
common.

Tim Newman (06:09):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (06:10):
So you can start right there.

Tim Newman (06:12):
Yeah, that that that's so awesome.
And you know, I tell peoplethat that with this podcast, uh,
I've been blessed and it'sopened up my eyes about a lot of
things, you know, things that Inever really thought that I
would be able to do, or or or ortalk to people.
And, you know, we're talking topeople all over the world with
the podcast, and and one of thethings I found is, you know,

(06:34):
we're we're all struggling withthe same types of things.
We're all struggling with theidea of connection.
We're all struggling with howwe become clearer, how we get
people to understand us, how weunderstand other people.
And yeah, it's in a way, it'sso good to hear that that it's
not just me, it's not just us,that other people are struggling
with the same thing and findingways to be able to connect with

(06:55):
people.
And music is one way that youcan actually do that.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (06:58):
Yes.
Yes.
And you can do it in differentgenerations, you can do it in
different nations, you can do itin places where otherwise you
might not have anything incommon at all.

Tim Newman (07:09):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (07:10):
You know?

Tim Newman (07:11):
That that that's that's amazing.
Uh and you, the other thingwith with you that uh again,
part of your amazing backstorythat that is to me is just
incredible and phenomenal.
You know, you you had you hadthat other life as being a
musician, and then you transtransitioned into the life of
academia, and we'll get intothat.
Uh I don't like even I don't Idon't even like talking about

(07:33):
that, you know.
I mean, academia that that's solast year, you know.
But yes.
But you've been on stages youralmost your entire life playing
music.
What was the what was it liketransitioning from being on
stage as a musician to being onstages and being in front of

(07:54):
people as a communicator, as aspeaker?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (07:57):
It was kind of a shock, honestly.
And your audience actuallymight be interested in hearing
this because, you know, I mean,stage fright and being in front
of people and and being able tocommunicate well is something I
think we all deal with.
But I think it's important tosay, you know, I was on stage
from the time I was six, eight,something like that.

Tim Newman (08:19):
Wow.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (08:19):
And so I was very comfortable on
stage when I had my French hornwith me, you know, and and like
if I was doing a recital, Icould talk a little bit about
the music or I could, you know,do that kind of thing.
But all of a sudden, when I hadto put that horn down and
actually go out and speak, and Iwas the instrument, right?
It was a whole different ballgame.
And it's a it's a set of skillsI've had to learn and finesse.

Tim Newman (08:45):
Yeah.
So what changes did you have tomake?
What what what mindset changesdid did you have to make?
Because because again, youknow, I'm not, I don't want to
put words in your mouth, but tome, I kind of liken it to, you
know, lioness in his blanket,right?
You know, you're yeah, right?

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (09:01):
Yeah.
Kinda.
So I don't know how true thisis, but psychologically, I mean,
because you know, I worked withsingers, I worked in operas, I
did that kind of thing.
And there was always thispsychological aspect to singing,
because for me, my instrumentwas outside of myself, right?
French horns out here, I put itin the case, it's done.
For a singer, you are yourinstrument, which means that

(09:24):
anything you do, anything yousay, if I'm going to drink hot
liquids, I'm gonna drink coldliquids, I'm gonna go out the
night before and to go to aconcert, I slept and the window
was open.
It all affects your instrument.
So you don't get to disconnectfrom it ever.
It is who you are.
The other part of that is aslong as you have an external

(09:46):
instrument, psychologically, youhave a barrier between you and
your audience.
Right.
Same as you would with a podiumor a microphone stand or
anything like that.

Tim Newman (09:54):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (09:54):
Which is very different than being an
opera singer or being someonewho's speaking, and you go out,
and there is nothing between youand the audience.
You are very vulnerable.
So it's a completely differentmindset.
And that's as close as I cancome to putting the two
together.

Tim Newman (10:12):
You know, I you you bring up some really good points
that I I didn't really thinkabout from a singer's
perspective.
And you you know, you hearpeople talk about it, you know,
a singer's got a cold, sothey're not going to perform
today, or they're or they'regonna postpone a show.
But uh a cold could couldreally be a real problem if you,
as a singer, if you try andpush through it, you know, from

(10:34):
um from your vocal cords, fromfrom a whole whole bunch of
other things, you could damagethem, and it's going the sound
is going to be different.
And if you it to me, everythingis about providing value to
your audience, right?
And if your sound isn't goingto be what you want your sound
to be, are you truly providingthe value for those people that
are are paying theirdiscretionary dollars to come

(10:55):
and see you in their in theirfree time, right?
And and so I think there'sthere's a lot of other things to
think about.
You know, again, I I neverthought about you know what you
drink, you know, hot versuscold, alcohol versus
non-alcohol, you know, staystaying up late, getting sleep,
it's it's so important for youknow a number of different
things.
I but I never really thoughtabout from a from a seer's

(11:16):
perspective as well.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (11:17):
Oh yeah.
And in fact, you you kind ofhave to be careful because if
you do try to muscle throughthis stuff, you can do damage.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I mean, youthink about like Julie Andrews,
right?
One of the best of the best.
And she had vocal node surgeryand she hasn't sang since
because it it ruined her vocalcords.

Tim Newman (11:35):
So that's a shame.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (11:37):
Yeah, it is, truly is.

Tim Newman (11:40):
You know, as I as I'm as I'm thinking, I I I may
have made a reference that ouraudience may not know with Linus
um in in his blanket.
Go look up Charlie Brown,you'll figure it out, you know?
There you go.
So you transitioned from uhbeing a traveling musician into

(12:01):
into academia, and you know,what was that like, you know,
teaching students, and how didyou have to to to change your
communication style um to toreally connect with students to
get them to understand whatyou're trying to teach?
And and you know, for me, I Ithink connecting with students
is is one of the hardest thingsto do because you've got let's

(12:23):
just say 30 students in aclassroom at a time, they all
learn a little bit different,they all listen a little bit
differently, they all payattention a little bit
differently, and trying to teachthem something, it it's it's
about really connecting withthem as a group, but also
individually.
So, how how did you make thattransition?
What did you learn there?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (12:40):
You know, the the funny thing about
music is that when you're doingit right, it's 80% listening
and 20% making noise.
And I think that teaching.
Wow, yeah, I mean, that'sreally what it is.
It's 80% listening to make sureyou're fitting into everything
that's going on around you.
And then 20% of the time you'reactually making noise.

(13:01):
And teaching, I thought was thesame thing.
I sh I needed to be listeningand know what my students were
doing and understand and connectwith them, whether it was a
room of 100 or you know,one-on-one private lessons.
So it's still 80% listening and20% making noise.

Tim Newman (13:19):
Wow, that that that is that that that's so simple,
you know, especially when wewhen we think about the whole
idea that you know, you and Italked, I I think the biggest
piece of communication is islistening to begin with.
And and that just really kindof puts it in a nutshell for
you, right?
I mean, if it if you're ifyou're listening, um, you've got

(13:41):
a much better chance of ofactually connecting with uh with
the rest of the students.
That that that's so impactful.
So 80% listening, 20% makingnoise audio.
Write that down.
That's that's that that thatthat's a good one.
Um it it it it it's so it's soimpactful and and so and so

(14:01):
poignant and simple tounderstand that you know if you
if you have if you had keep thatin mind for pretty much
everything you do, you know thebetter off you're gonna be.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (14:10):
Yeah, I agree.
That's that's something thatI've that has stuck with me
throughout, and it it seems toapply across the board.

Tim Newman (14:19):
So so let's get into the idea of your you know your
specialty, empathy and andemotional intelligence.
Um, I I think our educationalsystem is broken, top to bottom,
left to right, up to down,diagonals, which all every which
way that we that we look at it.
And one of the biggest issuesfrom my perspective is we don't

(14:43):
ever really teach students onehow to think, which impacts them
truly understanding who theyare as individuals.
And that's to me where we startto get that emotional
intelligence and trying to getthem to understand um you really
have to know who you are as anindividual before you can really
go and connect and providevalue to others.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (15:06):
Yeah.
Well, number one, I mean, youknow, we talked about this.
I'm a recovering academic too.
So I'm with you 110% on all ofthat.
I'll just say we can just dropthe mic.
You know, that's perfect.
But and I do agree with youthat the system is broken in how
we're teaching students.

(15:27):
And I think a lot of it has todo with this idea of we're
turning out a product, we'returning out a product, we're
turning out, and the and theprofessors are treated very much
the same way.
We're cogs in a machine, youturn out a product, turn on a
product.
And people aren't products.

Tim Newman (15:43):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (15:44):
You know, I mean, that's these are
people.
These are people who aregrowing.
They're at very, you know,important times in their lives
when they're learning how theywant to be and who they want to
be and how they want to getthere.
And as teachers, we should beable to help them and mentor
them as much as we can.
It shouldn't just be widgets,cogs, widgets, cogs.

(16:06):
Right.
And unfortunately, that'sthat's a lot of what I saw.

Tim Newman (16:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and and I think that'sagain again, top to bottom.
Uh, you know, in theinstitutions that that I was in
was the same way.
My you know, my wife was a uhre retired public school
teacher, say same, same types ofthings.
And um, you know, if if we ifwe don't teach them when they're

(16:34):
younger how to think or thatemotional intelligence, you
know, to know who they are, tobe able to control their
emotions, to be able to, youknow, tr truly be able to uh
feel you know things and and beable to re act and react on them
in the moment, okay.
What ends up happening is theyget to be at my age and they

(17:01):
they can't figure out why theyhaven't been successful, they
can't figure out why they can'tkeep a job, they can't figure
out you know, all thesedifferent types of of uh of life
skills, but that also that alsogoes to to the leaders of teams
and organizations who haven'tdone that and how they actually
treat the people on their teams.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (17:23):
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
There were two really importantstudies done.
One was like by Bon Traeger andMarquez, I don't remember the
other one now, but they actuallywent through and surveyed a
couple of business schools andthey gave them the top 10, you
know, important skills theyneeded to have, you know, and
and there was the usual ones,you know, statistics, human

(17:46):
capital resource,da-da-da-da-da-da.
And these are in businessschools.
So we're talking our educationsystem.
And at the bottom, every timewas empathy.
These students didn't value itbecause they hadn't been taught
that it was something to bevalued.

Tim Newman (18:01):
Right.
Right.
And you know, I I I look backat my career and you know, I I
try and be somebody that is iscaring and helpful and and wants
to do the right thing uh forboth the individual person, the
organization, et cetera.
And I and I I tell people allthe time, when I make decisions,

(18:23):
um sometimes I make decisionsthat it doesn't work out well
for me, right?
Because it's not one, it's notabout me.
It's about what's what's bestfor you or the team or what have
you.
And sometimes it's not gonnawork out for me.
And and that's you you have tobe okay with that.
And there's times I I I canlook back on my career in a

(18:43):
couple of different scenariosvery vividly, where one I did
things that if my administrationknew that I did, I'd be in
trouble.
But it was to me, it was theright thing to do.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (18:58):
Yeah.

Tim Newman (18:59):
But also there were times when I didn't know what
the right thing to do was.
And that, you know, aided mebecause you know, I I make a
decision and um sometimes itworked out right, sometimes uh
it had the opposite effect.
And uh and I think that'ssomething that we we as

(19:19):
individuals also have to learnas part of that emotional
intelligence thing, is to beable to to to think things
through, make a make the bestdecision that you actually that
that you possibly can and and gowith it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (19:32):
Yes.
I agree.
I mean, because the in whatyou're talking about, you're not
just thinking about youremotions, you're thinking about
the emotions of others.
You're not just thinking aboutyour situation, but the
situation of others.
And the beautiful thing withempathy, I mean, people assume
that it's all feeling, and it'snot.
It's actually understanding andconnection.
But when it's at its best, itgoes in both directions.

Tim Newman (19:56):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (19:56):
So as you're trying to have empathy
and be a good leader throughthis understanding and
connection, other people canlook at you and say, you know
what, he's doing the best he canwith what he has at the time.
You know, let's let's jump inand and do the best we can to
help him out as well.

Tim Newman (20:11):
Right.
And so what have you found inworking with with leaders,
teams, and organizations uhabout emotional intelligence and
empathy?
And and one of the biggestchallenges that that you're
facing in terms of getting themto understand that they've
they've got it that number one,at least and and after reading

(20:31):
your book, I'm I'm glad we agreeon this, that these are skills.
It's not something that you'reborn with.
These are skills that that wewe can learn and get better at
at practicing them.
Yeah.
So so what are the biggestchallenges you're facing in
terms of of working with teamsand and organizations about
understanding the benefits ofhaving emotional intelligence
and the benefits of of havingempathy?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (20:55):
You know, the first one that I run
into a lot is, and andespecially with some from older
generations or that are veryinmired in the this is the way
we do things because we'vealways done it this way, and
this is how we're gonna do it,kind of thing, is actually
explaining this is what empathyis, and this is how it helps.
It is data driven, it isresults-oriented, it is

(21:17):
skills-based, this isn't atouchy-feely thing because
business has to get done.
I mean, at the end of the day,from an empathy standpoint, if
you have no business, thenyou're not helping anybody.
Right.
So this organism has to be ableto function.
You know, it isn't alltouchy-feely and coddling to the
point that this business isgoing to sink, because that

(21:38):
doesn't help anybody.

Tim Newman (21:39):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (21:40):
But it is something that will
increase innovation, willincrease productivity, will
increase profit.
And I kind of get this are yousure?
Are you this is this isn't whatI thought it was?
And it's like, no, let me letme show you, let me explain, and
let me take you through it.
And it's a lagging indicator,it's not going to be immediate,
but you'll be amazed over timewhat it'll do.

Tim Newman (22:01):
Right.
Right.
And and what what happens?
How do you go about how do yougo about you know working with
with an with a with a leader oran organization in in building
that emotional intelligence andempathy?
Because I I I kind of I kind ofpicture things in my head that
they get it for a second andthen they fight you, and they

(22:23):
said, no, it's not gonna work.
And then they get it for asecond, then they fight you, and
then they get it for a secondagain, you know, and and it's
kind of it's it's it just seemsto me that because it's so
ingrained in in the in thefabric of of business and
society of change, you know, howdoes that process go?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (22:44):
You know, usually if I can get them
to stick with it long enoughthat they start to see results,
that's when they go, oh, thatcrazy redhead lady was right.
That did work.
Yeah, look at that.
Their profits are better, wehave better productivity, our
employee engagement scores areup.
All of a sudden, we got peoplecoming out of the woodwork to

(23:04):
give us innovative ideas thatare going to make things better,
you know.
Oh, who knew?
And and once they see theresults and and just how simple
it really is, you know, I mean,it's you you have to practice
it, right?
It's not a performance, it'snot something you do one time,
it's a practice, it's somethingyou do every day.
But once they get a hold ofthat, it's kind of like, oh, and

(23:26):
then it's just a matter ofhabit building.
But at first, you know,sometimes, and and I'll admit,
if I have someone that's justlike dead against it and think
that I can come in and just, youknow, put it in a box and make
it work, I I won't take thosethose people on because they
don't want to learn, you know,they want me to fix it, they
don't want to learn how to fixit.

Tim Newman (23:45):
Yeah, and you can't fix it.
I mean, that's that's the andwell let's let's go down that
road for a second here.
Um can it be fixed?
So let let's let's say, youknow, you know, pick pick a
scenario where um le leadershiphas has truly alienated their
their team, they've trulyalienated their their their

(24:07):
organization.
How difficult and can that befixed?
Can that be you know come inand um change that culture?
You know, and I'm I'mdefinitely not overnight, but
but but can those types ofsituations actually be fixed, or
does that truly require, youknow, a wholesale you know,
cleanup of of leadership andmost of the team members?

Melissa Robinson-Winemil (24:32):
That's a tough one because trust is
what happens when words andactions align over time.

Tim Newman (24:38):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (24:38):
So if you have someone that has
alienated their team that badthat they've created a toxic
work environment, that's usuallynot a one-time thing.
Right.
Their words and elections havewords and actions have aligned
over time to show that they arethis person and their people
trust that they will be thatperson.
So to suddenly have that personcome in and say, hey, I've
changed.
It's like a wonderful life,it's all going to be different,

(25:00):
you know?

Tim Newman (25:01):
Right, right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemi (25:02):
Nobody, nobody trusts that.
So they have to realign theirwords and actions over time,
which means they really have towant to do it.
People stick with what'scomfortable because it's what
they've done.
So there better be a real goodreason for that person to change
their behavior thatdrastically.
It can be done, but it'sunusual.

Tim Newman (25:23):
Yeah, and and that that's what I I think that's
what I struggle with when when Ilook at organizations, you
know, and and again, I neverwish bad on on anybody, but it
seems to me a lot of times inthose situations and scenarios,
that person who has eroded allthe trust has has had to go

(25:44):
through something traumaticthemselves.
And and they're and then Iwouldn't say that they're
broken, but they're they theycome out a very different person
on the other end.
And you know, uh again, don'twant to see that happen to
people, but but a lot of timeswhen they come out on the other
end, they're they're completelydifferent and they see where

(26:06):
they've made a mistake.
And and then again, it like yousay it it's tough to to again
build that trust and rapportback.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (26:14):
Yes.
Well, it's so much easier tobuild it up and keep it built
because the second you break itdown, it it's that trust factor,
no like and trust.
If people don't trust you,they're not gonna be willing to
believe you and go with you.

Tim Newman (26:29):
So you know so what so what's the key to teaching
this and and getting people tounderstand and embrace embrace
this early in life?
Um because uh obviously therethere are some people, and I'm
gonna say you and I are probablythose people that have always
had it, right?
Um or may maybe we learned itfrom our parents, maybe maybe we

(26:51):
learned it from from anothersix significant other in our uh
in our inner circle.
But how how do we teach this inin a way that is going to
really affect the masses or orbunches of people at the same
time?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (27:09):
If I lived in a perfect Melissa
world where I could do whateverI wanted to do, the best thing
we could do is actually startinstilling this early.
Um other countries actually usewhat's called social emotional
learning.
And unfortunately, in ourcountry, they've kind of twisted
it.
So it doesn't necessarily meanwhat it used to mean in these
other places, but they actuallylearn pro-social skills like

(27:32):
empathy, and they do it startingat like age five and six, and
it'll go all the way throughuntil they're like 16.
So these skills are actuallyembedded in these kids as skills
so that you're not trying toteach it later when it becomes
harder to teach.
Because empathy, empathy is isthis really broad thing.

(27:52):
There is a biological basis,okay, you know, that we we are
born with it to some degree.
Now, some people have more thanothers, but it is there for
most people.
There are a small subset thatdon't really have any, you know,
your psychopaths, narcissists,macribins, but most of us have
it.
But there's also um, it alsohas a footing in psychology, in

(28:17):
philosophy, in neurobiology.
So it covers all thesedifferent areas, it goes so far
beyond just being a feeling.

Tim Newman (28:25):
Okay.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (28:26):
And to just all of a sudden, you
know, someone's in an MBAprogram at 25 and say, here, use
empathy.

Tim Newman (28:31):
It's like, well, that yeah.
That's something it's just notgonna work.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (28:36):
No.

Tim Newman (28:38):
Yeah.
That's almost like saying, youhave your right hand, just start
start right with your lefthand.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (28:43):
Yeah, what's the problem?
Just use your other hand.

Tim Newman (28:45):
Yeah, it's that's it's just not gonna work.
No, but but that but that'sreally what we're dealing with,
and and I I think a lot of timesalso people uh don't truly
understand what empathy iseither.
Yeah.
And um they think that empathymeans that you know you tell
somebody something and you getyour way because you've told

(29:07):
them that.
And that's that that what doyou think of that?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (29:14):
I think that unfortunately there
will always be someone lookingto get that return on
investment, that it's atransaction.
Yeah, I give you this, you giveme that.
And there will always be thosepeople.
One of the things I say is thathaving empathy doesn't mean you
don't have boundaries.

Tim Newman (29:35):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (29:35):
You know, that the you know, there
will always be people that willtake advantage of that, but that
doesn't mean you shouldn't haveit, just you need to be aware.

Tim Newman (29:46):
And and setting those boundaries, I I think
sometimes is it is difficulttoo, because knowing what those
boundaries should actually beand and how they how they're
kind of fluid with withdifferent people as well.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (29:59):
Yes.

Tim Newman (30:00):
And you know, you know, I think about it from a
from a business perspective.
Um people people think thatthey uh people think that being
treated fairly is the same.
But it's not.
Um th that's that's part of theyou know, the the the issue in

(30:22):
in language as well.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (30:24):
Yes, it is, absolutely.
I actually talk about this howkindness and nice is not the
same thing.
You know, you can you can benice, nice is a social
construct, nice is a societalthing, it's how we treat each
other so that life is smoother.
Kindness is something whereyou're actually legitimately

(30:46):
looking out for the otherperson, there's a give and take,
it's a different thing.
So you can be nice and not bekind at all, just like you can
be kind and not be especiallynice.

Tim Newman (30:59):
And and and again, that that that's that's another
one one of those things that I Ithink people truly need to
understand.
Uh and and act on and act onthat, right?
Um because you know, people cansee through things uh much
better than than you think thatthey actually can.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (31:20):
Yes.
Yes.

Tim Newman (31:30):
Tell us about it, you know, because I I I I've
read a good portion of it, andit's in there you you tell you
get a little bit deeper intoyour story, and I and I don't
want to want to get into that,but but you know, you use your
story as examples of uh uhempathetic leadership and so so

(31:51):
instead of me talking about youdo you you tell us about your
book.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (31:56):
So really the only reason I bring
my story into it is just to showhow damaging unempathic
leadership can be.

Tim Newman (32:02):
Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (32:02):
And through the book, I want to be
able to bring in this narrativeso that people can say, oh yeah,
I recognize parts of this or Iunderstand bits of that, because
that's the big thing.
I I know other people see thistoo.
You and I do.
We we've we've talked aboutthis.
You know, other peopleunderstand that there's a severe
lack of something, and what arewe going to do about it?

(32:25):
So in the book, I actually makethe case why businesses should
do this, how it actually doescreate better profit
productivity and innovation andwhy, with more generational
friction, with the advent of AI,with big tech, with big data,
that people and companies andleaders who don't actually put
this in place are only going tostand to lose as things keep

(32:48):
moving quicker and farther intothe future.

Tim Newman (32:51):
Yeah.
And you know, you know, it inyour book, you you you ch
chapter eight is is aboutcommunication.
Um and you and you talk aboutthe the Holmes report um and how
much we're spending or how muchorganizations are are actually
spending in terms of uh rereplacing uh employees, you

(33:14):
know, all these types of things.
And it's an extraordinaryamount of money.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (33:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
That's why I put in theexamples that I did, because
it's such a big amount of moneythat it's it's hard to actually
get a hold of how much it is.
You know?

Tim Newman (33:32):
Yeah, it's it's it it it's insane.
Um and and you know, I I likethat you broke broke it down
into you know b big bigbusinesses, big corporations,
into and into smallerorganizations.
And you know, may maybe abigger organization can can
absorb that financial thefinancial cost.
Understand there's a differencebetween a financial cost and

(33:53):
human cost.
They may be able to absorb thatfinancial cost, but the smaller
organizations may not be ableto absorb that financial cost,
and they're definitely can'tabsorb that human cost.

Melissa Robinson-Winem (34:03):
Correct.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the thing is, is when theylose these humans, they're not
only losing the cost for what'shappening today, they're losing
institutional knowledge, they'relosing the innovation that
could come later, they're losingall of the future that goes
along with that human being.
It's not a machine part whereyou pull one part in and you

(34:24):
throw the other part out.
It's it goes so much deeperthan that.
And they don't quite realizejust how deep this can go.

Tim Newman (34:32):
Yeah, and and and how long it can go, right?
It it can go deep and and andlong.
I mean, just think about howlong it takes to replace
somebody.
It it it could be it could benine months to a year to from
the time somebody leaves to thetime you you get somebody hired
and you get them back to theskill level or the proficiency

(34:54):
level of the person that leftand how much time has been lost,
how much uh how much humancapital human capital has been
spent.
Right?
And so so there's you know, alot uh to me, a lot of times we
f I think we focus a lot on thefinancial piece, which is
important, obviously, but wecompletely dis discount and
disregard that that human thathuman piece, that human capital

(35:18):
piece, and what it does not onlyto the organization, what it
does to the the co-workers onthat team, what it does to that
to that unit, and to the overallbusiness itself.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (35:31):
Yeah, no, it absolutely does.
And I think this is part of thethings that part of the things
that we're missing when we lookat the big cost.
It's not just the cost thatcomes all the way down to the
bottom line, it's all thosecosts above it.
You know, what is happeningwith the coworkers?
What is happening with theleadership?
How much time are we having tospend in interviews with this
person to try and get somebodyelse in?
How much time are we spendingtrying to retrain them?

(35:53):
You know, and as people have tocontinue to go through this
mill, it does damage.
So you're damaging the peoplethat then go out into the next
job or the coworkers or the teamand the the vertical
integration of these people.
And you know, people aren'tmachines.
We shouldn't be treating eachother like this.

Tim Newman (36:11):
No, we should, we shouldn't.
And let's just talk about itfrom an academic perspective.
And and just so everybodyunderstands, academic academia
is not real world stuff, right?
But in academia, how long doesit take to replace a vacuum
member?
It takes a year, it takes an anentire year if you've been if
you're allowed to rehire forthat position, because sometimes

(36:33):
you're not, and that could taketwo to three years.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (36:36):
Yes, right?
Or you might lose the positionaltogether.

Tim Newman (36:40):
Altogether.

Melissa Robinson-Winemille (36:40):
Yep.
And now that falls on everybodyelse.

Tim Newman (36:43):
Uh-huh.
It it absolutely does.
Which hurts the students.
Yes.
Which is the that's the bottomline, right?
So, you know, as as a facultymember, yes, it it it hurts me
uh from a uh a coworker,colleague, et cetera.
And okay, that's one thing.

(37:03):
But now when when you when westart talking about we're
hurting the students who it'sour job as faculty, and it's our
job from the institutionperspective to prepare these
these students um you know forlife and jobs and careers, and
now we don't have we don't havea qualified person to teach
teach them.
And so maybe could you imagineif I'm called in to cover French

(37:26):
horn?
What what am I gonna teachthem?
Seriously.
Well you know what I mean?

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (37:31):
Yeah, but same.
Yeah, all the time.
I mean, even within adepartment, you know, if you're
in an engineering department andyou've got an electrical
engineer versus a mechanicalengineer, well, what's the
problem?
Can't you just do that?

Tim Newman (37:44):
No.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (37:44):
No.

Tim Newman (37:45):
No.
Sorry.
Exactly.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (37:47):
Yeah.

Tim Newman (37:48):
Uh yeah, it's it's it it is what it is.
And and again, I I don't lookat academia as real world.
I mean, that's that's in acompletely different world all
its own.
But the reality is when youwhen you get out into business,
it it could be you know six,nine months um to to replace
somebody.
And and the the the the timefor for interviews and and well,

(38:08):
let's get into it.
The the interview process, Ithink, is is antiquated across
the board as well.
Yes.
Again, different story for adifferent day.
Uh but how but it's in in inhow we communicate our our
ourselves, our our value, um,both from the from the
organization interviewerperspective and the uh potential

(38:31):
employee perspective.
I think probably I think thereneeds to be adjustments and
changes all the way aroundthere.
But yeah.
But in in chapter eight, um youyou have what's called the the
is it the Johari?
Jo H okay.
Can you explain that?
Because I I think this is a isa critical piece that our
listeners can actually, if theycan understand this, this is

(38:52):
something they can put intopractice today and understand
some some communication um flawsor or how they communicate and
and maybe where some um somemiscommunications or drop
communications can come from ifthey can understand this.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (39:07):
Yeah, totally.
Um the Jihari window is reallynice, actually, because it can
be applied to so many things.
But in that chapterspecifically, we're talking
communication.
And so if you picture it, youknow, you're looking like a
window, right?
There's four quadrants.
So, really what it comes downto is what you know, what you
don't know, what others know,what others don't know.

(39:28):
So you can start putting thisinto a communication context.
Like, you know, if you'relooking at this problem, well,
what do you know about thisproblem?
Well, what do you not knowabout this problem?
Well, what do others know aboutthat problem?
Because that can feed into whatyou know and what you don't
know.
What do others not know aboutthis problem?
This is how you can pull yourcommunication in to help them

(39:50):
understand what's going on, youknow.
So in doing that, it kind ofhelps flush it out to what's
happening internally,reflection, and what's happening
externally, which is moreself-awareness.
Because so much of whathappens, there's this disconnect
between, you know, what I thinkI know and what's actually

(40:11):
happening.

Tim Newman (40:12):
Right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemil (40:12):
Right.
And this this lets you actuallybreak that down.
You can say, well, so do Iactually know what I think I
know?
Or, you know, if I'm gettingfeedback and people are being
honest with me, do I maybe notknow as much as I thought I did?

Tim Newman (40:23):
Exactly.
And and I I think that that'sso important to understand.
Um, you know, I I tell people alot that, you know, when I was
21, I knew everything and nowand now I'm not sure that I know
what I know.
You know, you know, and it'sand yeah, that's really a a good
place to be, to, to be open toadmitting that you don't know

(40:44):
something, to be open toadmitting that, you know, what I
need probably need to learn alittle bit more in this or or
understand that I may I may bewrong, or I may have
misunderstood this, or I mayhave not have have have done
what I needed to to that.
Um so it's it's okay to it'sokay to not know.
It's okay to be to tell peoplethat you don't know.

(41:05):
It's okay to be open to beingwrong in those types of things.
I I think that buildscredibility.
I think that builds your umyour own personal knowledge base
and also helps you to helpother people.

Melissa Robinson-Winem (41:17):
Totally.
Well, and it leaves you open tothe person who does know.
It gives an opening for thatperson to be say to say, well,
wait, yeah, I can help you withthis.
Whereas otherwise I'll probablyjust be like, well, sounds like
they got it handled.

Tim Newman (41:33):
Melissa, I don't I don't have it handled.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (41:37):
I don't either.
The more I know, the more Iknow I don't know.

Tim Newman (41:43):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Oh well, Melissa, where canpeople connect with you?
This this has been awesome.
Where can they connect withyou?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (41:52):
So the best place is probably on my
website, and it's eq via viasand victoria empathy.
And you can you can find methere, you can um reach out to
me.
I'm also on LinkedIn, I'm on umInstagram.
LinkedIn is where I'm at themost.
And I also have a podcast of myown called The Empathic Leader.
So I do a little bit on YouTubethere as well.

Tim Newman (42:14):
That's awesome.
And and they can buy your bookpretty much anywhere books are
sold.

Melissa Robinson-Wi (42:19):
Absolutely.
Amazon, uh Barnes and Noble,um, and there'll be an audiobook
version coming out probably inabout a month or so.

Tim Newman (42:27):
Oh, good.
Oh, real quick, um before Iforget, I I could is your is
your TED Talk gonna be out soon?
Is it out?
I haven't been able to find it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller (42:37):
It isn't out yet, but the good news
is it's because I actually gotan editor's pick, which is like
in TEDx world.
See, I didn't even know thisexisted, but it's Melissa,
that's that is awesome.

Tim Newman (42:52):
Thank you.
I'm excited.
Will you let me know when itwhen it comes out?
Because I uh you know I'd I'dlove to see it and and obviously
share that with with thecommunity.
That that's that's phenomenal.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (43:02):
Thank you.
And yeah, I'd be more thanhappy to.

Tim Newman (43:06):
Well, Melissa, this has been great.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us today.
I I I really do appreciate it.
And you know, I I I know ourlisteners are gonna get a ton of
value from you, and and that Ican't thank you enough for.

Melissa Robinson-Winemill (43:18):
Well, it's my pleasure.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Thanks to your audience for forlistening.
And just, you know, Iappreciate the chance to talk
about empathy anytime anyonewill let me.

Tim Newman (43:30):
Awesome.
Well, well, well, thank you somuch.
Take care, and and we'll talkto you soon.

Melissa Robinson-Winem (43:35):
Perfect.
Thank you.

Tim Newman (43:37):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidence
podcast.com to get your freeebook, the top 21 challenges for
public speakers and how toovercome them.
You can also register for theForeman for Public Speaking.
Always remember your voice is apower changer.
We'll talk to you next time.
Take care.