April 7, 2025 • 51 mins
What if your greatest strength as a leader wasn’t how well you speak, but how well you listen?
In this episode of Speaking With Confidence, Tim sits down with leadership development expert and executive coach Therese Miclot for a powerful conversation about the kind of communication skills that truly set great leaders apart. With over 25 years of experience coaching global tech executives and co-authoring The Facilitation Advantage, Therese brings a fresh, human-centered approach to what it means to lead and communicate effectively.
They dive deep into the art of “deep dive listening”, a next-level skill that helps you understand not just what’s being said, but the motivations and unspoken needs behind it. Whether you’re in a high-stakes public presentation or a one-on-one with a team member, Therese shares how intentional listening can shift everything.
You’ll also hear why your self-talk is more visible than you think, how to replace awkward meeting questions with ones that spark real engagement, and why vulnerability isn’t a weakness, it’s your leadership superpower.
If you're ready to future-proof your career, connect more meaningfully, and develop the soft skills that actually drive results, this episode is your roadmap to becoming a more powerful communicator.
What You’ll Learn:
- Why “Any questions?” is the worst way to end a meeting—and what to say instead
- The real reason your communication might be falling flat (hint: it’s about mindset)
- How to keep the attention of neurodiverse teams and foster better engagement
- The link between imposter syndrome, self-talk, and leadership presence
- Why public speaking is about connection, not perfection
- How soft skills like listening and facilitation yield massive ROI in business
- The secret to making people feel safe, seen, and ready to contribute
- Why networking and internships matter more than GPA
- How to develop interpersonal skills that boost both personal and professional development
Key Quote:
"Your thoughts are like a billboard on your forehead, people can read them, even when you think they’re hidden." – Therese Miclot
Connect with Therese
https://www.linkedin.com/in/theresemiclot/
https://www.thefacilitationadvantage.com/
Resources & Links:
Get your FREE ebook: Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them
Visit timnewmanspeaks.com for coaching, resources, and to book a call with Tim
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
Speaking With Confidence
Formula for Public Speaking
Facebook
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim (00:08):
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast
dedicated to helping you unlockthe power of effective public
speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
(00:30):
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is ThereseMicklow.
Therese is a leadershipdevelopment expert with 25 years
of experience developing andcoaching leaders in global tech
companies and small to mid-sizedbusinesses.
She is a co-author of theFacilitation Advantage, a book
that helps leaders develop theskills to guide teams
(00:51):
effectively and with empathy.
Today, she coaches leaders onhow to navigate complex dynamics
, lead authentically and buildworkplaces where both
individuals and teams can thrive.
Therese, welcome to the show.
Therese (01:04):
Thanks, it's so good to be here, tim.
Tim (01:06):
Oh, it's great having you and you know I mentioned to you,
you know, a few weeks ago thatyou know the pitch that you gave
me was probably to be on theshow was probably one of the
best I've ever seen and it'sperfect.
And I think that's really kindof leads into what we're going
to talk about how you kind oflead with value, you're specific
(01:33):
in the request and how you canbe beneficial in helping others.
Is that something that's kindof natural for you or was that
learned behavior from you?
Kind of give me a little bit ofinsight on that.
Therese (01:45):
Sure, it's very much learned behavior and I think
it's a skill and I think this istrue for all of us who have
some sort of domain expertise orsubject matter expertise and
the thing I've learned over theyears is that if you can step
out of your own needs and intothe shoes of others, then you're
already better at craftingcommunication or messages,
(02:07):
because you're not thinkingabout it from your vantage point
, you're thinking about it fromyour audience's vantage point.
And so I always begin, or learnto begin, as I'm trying to
influence or engage with people,to think about what are their
pain points Like, what are theytrying to accomplish?
Because when I can communicateit in a way that addresses those
(02:29):
pain points or their needs ortheir focus areas, it's going to
lead to a better conversation.
Tim (02:38):
Yeah, and I kind of approach things the same way and
how we go about communicating,those things really can come off
very very's.
I kind of approach things thesame way and you know there's
how we go about communicating.
Those things really can comeoff very, very differently,
right, you know, I like that,that you're, you're, you're
helping, you know, lead teamswith empathy.
And for somebody like, like,like me, I've been told that I,
(03:00):
that I'm abrasive and there's tome that's not how I, that's not
how what I'm actually trying todo.
So sometimes, you know, it'sword choice, sometimes it's tone
, sometimes it's how we actuallyapproach the situation, and so
for me, again, it's very much aprocess and learn behavior.
(03:23):
You know, I think people reallydo come with the idea of
leading with value and trying tohelp people for the most part,
but how we come across and doingthat is just really so
important and how that'sactually received.
Therese (03:35):
Totally and, I think, the skill to lean on.
So, even when you're comingwith that intention, but you
know, like you said, maybeyou're coming off as too
abrasive or too direct or tooindirect the place to go is
listening and I think it'sreally easy for us to think like
when we're trying to show upwith credibility and confidence
(03:58):
or communicate really well, thatwe think it's all about talking
about getting my point out, youknow, getting other people to
believe what I'm saying, and Ithink the counterbalance to that
that is as important as whatyou say is how you draw people
out, how you hear their point ofview first, instead of thinking
(04:19):
.
You know the mindset of Ibetter say something smart, or I
better you know word thisperfectly of I better say
something smart, or I better youknow word this perfectly and it
gets you kind of wrapped up inunproductive and unhelpful
thinking.
Tim (04:33):
It really does.
And you know the listeningpiece is, I guess is really one
of the most important pieces incommunication from my
perspective and you know I'mworking on on one of those on a
reel to put out about.
You know barriers tocommunication and one of them is
is the listening piece.
(04:53):
You know, as we're, as we'relistening are we, are we
listening, like you said, to tofind something really smart to
say right right are we listeningto wait till it's our turn to
jump in, or those types ofthings?
Therese (05:05):
The importance of listening again is a learned
skill, yeah, and I think,especially from a communication
perspective, it's often kind ofpushed to the side Completely,
and I think we all have toacknowledge that as humans, we
are not great listeners.
No, you know, that was alwaystrue.
(05:29):
Now, you know, in today's dayand age, where there's constant
interruptions and pings andemails coming in, it's obviously
gotten exponentially moredifficult.
But we're just not wired to begreat listeners to begin with,
and so I 100% agree we have tothink of it like a skill that
you've got to develop, and inthe book, one of the chapters is
(05:52):
really on the skill oflistening, and we focus on the
fact that there's layers tolistening.
You can listen at the surface,right, and that's just you're
listening for the raw facts anddata that people are telling you
.
Surface right, and that's justyou're listening for the raw
facts and data that people aretelling you.
But often there's, you know,what we call deep dive listening
.
There's so much under thecovers that people may not share
(06:13):
with you immediately until theyknow okay, you're going to
listen to me or I trust you, andso the skill is how can you
listen beyond the surface?
For what do they value, whatare their motivations, what's
the underlying issue?
And you will automatically showup as a better communicator if
(06:35):
you focus in on deep divelistening.
Tim (06:39):
Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought up the book because
and I've said this on thispodcast before I'm a little
different and so when I go, whenI get a book, I don't start at
page one and read through.
Therese (06:54):
It's just not what I do .
Tim (06:56):
Oh, this looks like an interesting chapter, and that's
right.
And then I, you know, go fromthere and the first chapter I
read was the listening chapter.
Yeah, and you know, and I alsolook at it from maybe some other
different perspectives too youknow, with where we're at in
(07:19):
society today, with so manypeople with ADD or ADHD, and my
ADHD is really, really bad, sowhen, when I'm really tasked
with listening, at the end ofthe day I'm, I'm, I'm, we're out
.
How do we, because it's soimportant, how do you coach
(07:42):
listening?
How do you get people,especially people like me, or
people that that have other, um,other other things that are
that are tugging at them to totruly focus and do be able to do
that deep dive listening?
Because, again, how of howimportant it is.
Therese (08:00):
Yeah, yeah, um, I think I think of it in kind of two
directions, and this is for allof us that are facilitating
conversations or leading teammeetings, and we have coworkers
and colleagues with ADHD,whether or not you know of a
diagnosis or not, and I thinkthe first thing is that we have
to be much more aware of thesignals people are dropping all
(08:21):
the time.
I'll give you a perfect example,too.
I was on a call this week and Ihave some people on that call
that have disclosed to me theyhave ADHD, and the meeting
leader was like on their owntrack and you could tell they
had their agenda.
They wanted to get through alot.
(08:42):
There's probably too much tocover in the hour that we had,
but that aside, I could see myother colleagues and we were all
virtual.
I could see them fidgeting, Icould see them looking around.
I could read the body languagethat said they're uncomfortable
right now, or they're trying toprocess, or you know what.
(09:03):
It's been a long time since theleader stopped talking to engage
us, and so that's the firstthing I would say for all of us
that have to leave meetingsafter meeting after meeting is
we have to be a lot better atrecognizing that when we see
signals that people are losingfocus, we've got to be able to
(09:24):
not necessarily call it outdirectly, but we need to shift
what we're doing, and I thinkfacilitation is just all about
choices.
So when I replay that meetingthis week.
The facilitator could have hadchoices or taken a different
choice.
Instead of just all right, juststay with me, we have 10 more
minutes.
She could have stopped and saidokay, I've talked a lot and I
(09:49):
know there's a lot of detailhere.
So what's landing for you rightnow?
What are you thinking about?
And that might've re-engagedthe minds of people that were
having trouble focusing.
So that's part A, like let'shelp others when we're leading
meetings.
And then for those that dostruggle to stay focused in
(10:10):
meetings, I think a couplethings.
One is to speak up, and you canspeak up without maybe pointing
out that you're having aproblem.
So it might be that you say,hey, I've got a question, and
when you engage, that might helpyou stay focused a little bit
more.
Right, you know, or gettingwhat you what you need, when you
(10:35):
know there's a lot ofinformation coming at you all at
once and it's feeling like justa wave of you know, data.
Tim (10:43):
Yeah, and again, you.
You bring up so many good pointsand I could, you know, go down
rabbit holes all the time withthis and being a leader, I think
it's very, very important thatyou know the people that you're
leading.
You have an understanding ofwho they are, you know what,
what their learning styles are,you know what I mean, being able
to watch them and see how theywork and be able to connect with
(11:07):
them on different levels andyou know I approach it from the
idea of a coach perspective onan athletic team.
You know you put people inpositions where they're going to
be successful.
You know that this person cando this, and then you coach them
in different ways.
How you talk to them is indifferent ways, and it really
shouldn't be any different inbusiness or your personal life
(11:29):
or anything like that.
It's understanding who youraudience is, understand who
you're leading and what theirgoals and objectives are, and
finding the best ways to guidethem to be able to get there
best ways to guide them, to beable to get, to be able to get
there.
Therese (11:48):
Yeah, I think that for all of us, the message is when
you, when you have to lead ameeting and let's say it's more
than two people you shouldnaturally assume that that
people are not going to be likeyou in terms of how they receive
information, right?
So for some of us, you know andmaybe that you relate to this
Tim like you're very direct, youtalk in bullets.
You'll relate to this Tim likeyou're very direct, you talk in
bullets, you get to the point,you're really efficient, right?
(12:09):
It's about efficiency and speedand that's great for people who
are in the meeting, who arelike that, who are like just,
bottom line for me Like I don'tneed the details, just tell me
bottom line.
But the chances are good thatthere are other people in the
room or on the call that arelike wait, wait, wait, wait,
hold up.
How did you reach thatconclusion?
Like, where's the data tosupport that?
(12:30):
I want to have more informationthan just you know.
Cutting to the chase andgetting to the bottom line and
you know I think of that asversatility that it's the one
skill that we all need in everyinteraction we have with people,
and that is to recognize thatyou know how I like to operate
in the world, or have meetingsor have discussions or have
(12:51):
information conveyed to me isnot the same for others, and the
more you're able to flex yourapproach, the more people want
to follow you.
The more you keep everyoneengaged, the more you influence,
and even when you don'tnecessarily have authority.
Tim (13:07):
But you have 10 minutes on the meeting agenda and you
really got to get people wrappedinto your idea quickly- Right,
and so that's again really goodpoints, and one of the things
how I handle those things is Istart right, right up front.
I'm going to give you the youknow the bullet points.
(13:28):
Here it is.
If you want more information,let me know.
I can cover it, I can send itto you how I'll give it to you
however you want it.
If you want me to slow down,tell me, slow down as well, but
I've got five minutes to getthrough this and I'll be happy
to to meet on the side, whateverit is, but giving them that
(13:48):
opportunity.
So for the introverts, who maynot necessarily want to speak up
, Right right.
You know they have anopportunity to oh wow, you know
they can, you know, get theirheart rate back down.
Therese (14:03):
Right, right.
And here's another choice CauseI think again, the more you
have choice moment to moment,the more effective you are at
communicating and engaging.
Another choice, tim, would beI'm not going to give
information, I'm going to tell astory.
Tell a story, you know, becausestory is a way that we make
meaning as humans, and it'ssticky.
(14:23):
So you're the eighth meeting ofthe day, everybody's tired,
they're exhausted and you wantto have, you know, make a point
that is going to stick and bememorable.
Throw out the slide and tell itin the frame of a story.
That's another option, exactlyas is like pausing and saying,
(14:43):
okay, you know, asking aquestion to engage people, or
saying you know, just as you did, tim, like okay, there's a lot
of information here.
Here's how.
I'll share it afterwards If youwant more detail.
Tim (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, but it's again.
I think come back to the veryfirst thing we talked about is
the whole idea of providingvalue and giving people what
they need.
You know right up front, andbringing their anxiety levels
(15:15):
down or putting them in themindset of okay, I don't have to
necessarily worry about askingquestions or doing this or doing
that.
This person or these peoplethat are running this meeting or
lecture or what have you, aretruly interested in helping and
that's just so important.
Therese (15:36):
Yeah, I think we can make it easier or more difficult
for people to engage with us.
We can make it easier or moredifficult for people to engage
with us, and it's just choices.
And I think, like another thingI feel like in my coaching of
leaders I correct a lot is weall have a tendency, if we're
presenting or got an update in ameeting, we say any questions,
(15:59):
any questions.
That's the worst, and one oftwo things either people are
sitting in the room like please,please, please.
Nobody ask a question.
We want to get out of here,right, but it's also just, it's
a throwaway question.
People don't usually engagewith that because it's not
curious, right?
It's like well, what are youasking me about, you know, and
(16:21):
the weather, that last slide.
And I think we could be so muchmore effective if we ask more
curious questions and never saidagain Any questions.
Tim (16:34):
Any questions.
Yeah, I'm so guilty of thatsometimes.
And you get to the end, or evenin the middle right, and it's
your time to to re-engage.
Yeah, catch your breath and youknow you're.
You're thinking okay, this is,this is what I want to say, and
it comes out as any questions.
Therese (16:55):
Oh my god yeah, oh, you're awesome.
You are not alone.
That's not everybody what I'msaying you know, it's so easy.
It's so easy, yeah, I thinkmaybe.
The message, though, is, if youwant to be a really good
communicator and, again, most ofus focus on, okay, the slides,
the details, getting our messagestraight If you could spend
(17:17):
another 90 seconds thinkingabout what am I curious to know
from my audience and don't wingit, because I think when we wing
it, the question is anyquestions.
But if you spent 90 seconds ortwo minutes like, okay, what am
I really curious about to hearfrom this group and how can I
formulate a question thatreflects that curiosity, I would
(17:40):
almost bet that you're going toget more engagement, because
people are really noticing thatyou actually want my opinion.
You're not just, you know,offering the you know throwaway
question.
Tim (17:54):
Right, Right, it's, and it's again.
It comes back to, like you said, preparation and and being in
the moment, and.
And comes back to, like yousaid, preparation and being in
the moment and being able tocommunicate that and understand
that.
And I think you agree with this.
This isn't easy.
This isn't something that justkind of happens.
It takes work, it takespractice, it takes repetition,
(18:19):
repetition and I think,especially from a leader's
perspective, the people thatyou're leading, if they see that
you're trying, if they see thatyou're improving and you're
trying to get better, they'reall in helping facilitate that
as well.
Therese (18:38):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And I was having a conversationwith someone this week about
you know, your vulnerability asa leader can actually be your
strength, because no one'sperfect, and I have found that
the leaders that I've workedwith that will disclose hey,
like I'm not, I'm still tryingto get better at this or, you
know, it's totally fine if yougive me feedback, because I'm
still trying to learn.
This instantly makes me want tofollow them more, because
(19:02):
they're not intimidating.
They're like, of course, likenone of us are good at
everything, and it also gives mepermission to feel like I don't
have to be perfect, because Iknow I'm not, and um and so it.
Yeah, I don't think that youhave to give on airs Like you
have it all figured out at alltimes right, because we don't.
Tim (19:21):
I don't think, I think anybody does and and I think, no
matter how good you think youare, you're going to run into a
situation that you've neverdealt with before, yeah, and
you're going to have to tofigure it out, and then I, I
think it's it's also importantto to go back and self-reflect
and self-evaluate and also bewilling to have that feedback
(19:47):
from other people and own whatyou did or didn't do, right.
You know, I've worked with somepeople that, for whatever
reason, just had a tough timeowning what they did or didn't
do.
Tough time owning what they,what they did or didn't do.
Therese (20:01):
you know, and it's a part of that, if, if you can't
do that that's something thatthe people that you're leading,
are going to see and are goingto resent you for, yeah, it's a
real derailer, because I thinkthat you know a lot of the
companies that I work inside,the really the ones with the
great culture and where theyattract great talent.
(20:25):
They know that what successlooks like is not just what you
do but how you do it Right, andand those are those in many
companies that have like thebest leaders they see that as
equivalent, because we probablyall know, if you worked in, you
know companies, salespeople whoare maybe great at hitting their
quarterly numbers but nobodywants to work with them Right,
(20:49):
and that string eventually runsout.
And so at least I find rightthat eventually.
It does Right that it'll catchup with you because you're going
to lose good talent.
You know people will doeverything to work around you
and you know the companies thatare, I think, really advanced in
the way they develop leadersand create a culture.
(21:10):
Recognize it's the what and thehow that defines your
performance.
Tim (21:15):
Yeah, and you know, I spent , you know, the majority of my
career in higher ed and that'swhat you see in higher ed.
In higher ed, there really isno, there is no process for
training leaders, becausegenerally how it works is you're
a professor and most professorshave never really worked in
(21:37):
business, yeah, and which andmost professors have never
really worked in business.
They have no training in in howto lead or how to deal with
people, any type of managementstructure.
And then they become departmentchair and now they're in charge
of a group of faculty that theyhave to manage, that they have
to evaluate.
No training there.
And then they get bumped upinto a dean position.
(21:59):
Now they've even got a biggerbudget and there's no training.
Therese (22:12):
You know, though, tim, there's so many parallels from
academia to business, becausethat's been my experience in
most companies, particularlythose that are fast growing, is
that you get promoted becauseyou're good at your subject
matter expertise.
But the reality is that you'reright, leadership is a different
skill set, and you can't muscleit through just because you
(22:32):
have subject matter expertise,especially when you get promoted
into roles as a team leader ormanager, director, vice
president, and it doesn't justcome with the title, and it
really is a set of skills.
That you're right.
You know whoever taught us tolisten?
you know, I never went to alistening class in college or
(22:53):
you know, we learned it from ouryou know people around us right
, those that modeled it eitherin a good way or a bad way, and
there's an easier way to getpeople transitioning to
leadership roles to bewell-equipped to perform in this
new function.
Tim (23:15):
Yeah, and I wish there'd be more more of an open being open
to doing that, because how muchmoney and time and resources
are lost to not doing that whenyou, when you could.
Just the amount of money thatit will cost in time to, to, to
(23:38):
do the training, to, to buildpeople up like that with ascule,
compared to what you'reactually losing, I mean the
return on investment of that, ishuge.
Therese (23:47):
Yeah, I've worked with some clients that were able to
actually quantify it becausethey had a nutrition problem, so
they were losing good talent,and you can work with your
finance person to actually put anumber to what it costs to when
you lose good talent and whatit costs to replace good talent
(24:08):
that you have to train and thetime and all that, and that goes
straight to the bottom line.
And so I think that in growingcompanies, where leaders at the
top are recognizing what's goingto prevent us from growing, is
leadership ready now.
You know that that becomes thebottleneck, and I'm working with
(24:29):
a client right now where thatthat's the case, because they
grew really fast and they havereally strong engineers and
technicians and all that gotthem to like director level and
they're not equipped to help thebusiness scale and navigate and
leading larger teams now right.
Tim (24:47):
I read a stat recently last week or two that those
companies that are spendingmoney on soft skills training
and leadership training areseeing like a 296% return on
that investment, which is which,which is huge.
Therese (25:08):
That's.
That's wonderful to see thatit's now, you know, quantifiable
.
And here's the other thing Ithink we all have to know you
know with, you know AI and thefact that you know work is going
to change.
You know it's coming that ifyou want to future and the fact
that you know work is going tochange, you know it's coming
(25:28):
that if you want to future-proofyour skill set, it's going to
be on these like communicationskills, facilitation skills,
because we're going to have AIagents that will be able to do a
lot of the work that doesn'tnecessarily require the human
interaction that we're going toneed.
So, to me, if you're thinkingabout how do I get ahead of the
curve and keep a growth mindsetaround how the world of work is
(25:52):
going to be reshaped sooner thanwe know, it's to double down on
what you offer, tim and the wayof communication and you know
how you build.
You know relationships andcollaborate and influence.
Tim (26:07):
Yeah, I agree, and and I don't.
I don't understand how we havegotten to the point where we're,
where relationships are reallynot not what we're building is
there.
They seem to be kind of pushedto the side.
And, and I don't care whatindustry that you're in or want
(26:29):
to get into or, like you justsaid, in the future it's still
going to require interpersonalcommunication.
It's still going to be aboutthe, the relationships that you
build, the network that youbuild, the um, those connections
, that connections, that'swhat's always really going to
matter anyway, and that's inbusiness and that's in our
personal lives all the waythrough.
Therese (26:50):
Totally.
I saw this quote and I thoughtof you, tim, from an academic
perspective.
But the quote was a C-plusstudent with an A plus network
will always do better than an Aplus student with a C plus
network.
Right, and I think it isbecause that you know if you're
(27:12):
going to invest in your network.
That doesn't mean waiting forwhen you have to have a job or
you need to ask somebody youknow for a favor.
It's being really good atcollaborating and connecting and
communicating and keepingrelationships you know growing
and afloat.
Tim (27:30):
Yes, and you know, you nailed it and that's something
that I would tell my studentsall the time and I would say I
would much rather have you be aC student doing these things and
showing effort and doing allthose things and then be an A
student and not doing the basicthings, because eventually it's
going to catch up to you.
Therese (27:51):
You know I earlier in my career I led university
relations for a multi-billiondollar company and you know we
would go to all these campusesand we had a big presence, all
that and we would bring, youknow, very qualified students to
our campus and interview andmore often than not it wasn't
(28:12):
just those with the straight.
You know 4.0, gpa and you knowperfect credentials, because if
they could not interact well andbe able to answer questions and
ask questions, they would notget an offer.
And I think they were stunnedof like I did everything right.
I got you know perfect gradesand the reality is, in a work
(28:36):
environment, certainly your, youknow your ability to
demonstrate that you, you know,can learn fast and grades matter
.
So I'm not saying don't go toclass, but I am saying that if
it's hyper-focused on that andnot on what you offer and that
we have communication skills,you're missing the boat.
Tim (28:58):
Yeah, and again, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole
, but I've been saying this foryears From a societal
perspective, the way we approachhigher education is number one
it's not realistic, it's notsustainable and we're not doing
the we're failing our studentsbecause the focus is academics,
(29:21):
academics, academics, and that's.
That's just one of the reasonswhy we go to go to college.
Therese (29:26):
Yeah.
Tim (29:26):
There's a there's a social piece to it.
Right, there's a professionalpiece to it.
There's, you know, all thesethings that go into going off to
college and every all thepressure is on academics.
Yeah all the pressure is onacademics.
Yeah, and, and I would, I would.
(29:47):
When we do open houses, youknow, especially when I was at,
you know, a smaller school whereI was really involved in that,
I would.
I would tell parents, I wouldsay, look, you know, and they
would other professors.
The dean would look at me.
I would say, look, academics isimportant, but you also need to
look at, you know, what are theother things that are on campus
that your student would beinterested in?
Right, do they fit in?
Do they like the campus?
What clubs, what locallyinterests them?
(30:11):
Sure, and make some of thosedecisions, because there's so
much more to it.
And, yeah, academics isimportant.
Yeah, but it's not the end-all,be-all, yeah.
Therese (30:20):
Academics is important, but it's not the end all be all
.
Yeah, I have a recent collegegrad and the you know being able
to again see it from theacademic perspective as he was
going through college, but alsofrom the industry perspective.
The thing that you know waslike a non-negotiable for our
son was internships.
Non-negotiable for our son wasinternships starting your
(30:41):
freshman year, and it can be.
You are the you know sweepingthe floor at the warehouse, but
you're going to learn how tooperate inside.
You know environments where youhave to get things done through
others and it's not based ongrades.
And I'm such a wholeheartedbeliever in.
You know all these industriesare going through major
(31:03):
disruption, so academics is nodifferent, but it's, I think, on
the forefront of seeing howit's going to have to be a bit
of a reset, the whole paradigm.
And I think you know, as wewait to see all the changes that
will arise, I often think, okay, well, what can I do now?
If I'm a student, if I'm aparent, like hear about someone
(31:26):
who's early in their career orin their academic journey?
It's like it's these skills.
Tim (31:32):
It's and and and, and.
I think the way that we dointernships has to change, yeah,
and the way that we doexperiential learning from an
academic perspective has tochange.
It's great that they're goingout and getting these
experiences, but what's thecommunication piece Because
we're so worried about?
Oh, can you do this skill, canyou do this skill, but did you
interact in that meeting?
(31:52):
Were you invited to thatmeeting?
Therese (31:55):
Yeah.
Tim (31:57):
Did you interact in that meeting?
Did you send an email to yoursupervisor?
What was in that email?
How was it structured?
And have that looked at andevaluated by not only your site
supervisor but your academicsupervisor and really truly work
together, because, again, we'reso focused on the, on the task,
(32:21):
the skill.
Therese (32:24):
Yeah.
Tim (32:24):
The communication piece is left over here.
Therese (32:26):
It's true, we've got to change that, yeah, and you know
I know a lot of a lot ofschools have team-based projects
and you know it's so cliche butright Like oftentimes, maybe
you had this, if you ever havetwo projects, Tim, you know, one
person feels like they did allthe work and the rest of the
people just like rode thecoattails.
And I was talking to someoneearlier in their career and they
(32:48):
said you know, what nobody toldme is that everything at work
is basically a group project.
I thought I was going to leavethat, you know, on campus, and
the reality is is like I don'tknow any company or job where
it's not matrixed anymore, RightMeaning you have to work across
you know functions, levels,layers, and guess what?
(33:12):
You're going to run into peopleat work that have a different
approach to you, a differentcommunication style to you, and
it's the number one thing you'regoing to need to navigate is
relationships.
It's you know, careers are likeone big group project.
Tim (33:28):
Exactly, and you know when I would say that to my students,
they would look at me like DrMina, you have no idea what
you're talking about.
I said, okay, give it a shot.
Yeah, you know.
And give it a shot, yeah, youknow.
Therese (33:41):
And yeah, I think that's why internships are so
incredibly vital because you,you have to experience it and I
think you know this is just trueof all of us when we're young,
right like we have to kind ofexperience it ourselves before
we really like, oh, okay exactlysaying it, but now I actually
get it.
Tim (34:01):
Now I understand it.
Therese (34:02):
Yeah.
Tim (34:02):
Yeah, yeah.
So that also kind of gets meinto the idea of mindset right,
how our self-talk really kind ofguides our mindset.
From the work that you're doing, are you finding, even in
(34:24):
leaders and CEOs and C-suitefolks, that they're having some
of the same issues that youngprofessionals are in terms of
imposter syndrome, negativemindset, negative self-talk,
those types of things?
Therese (34:40):
Yeah, it's universal, that you know.
Most of us have a lot ofchatter in our head, right, and
we speak to ourselves all thetime, whether or not we're aware
or not, and it has a hugeimpact on how we show up,
because our thoughts drive ouremotions, which drive our
behavior.
So, for instance, if I'm in ameeting and I'm saying to myself
(35:01):
you know, don't screw up, youbetter say something smart,
right?
Like everyone's going to figureout, you don't know what you're
doing, right?
Well then, how do you thinkyou're going to feel when you
think that thought?
Tim (35:12):
Yeah, you're gonna screw up .
Yeah, your feelings areprobably like nervous, anxious,
worried, right.
Therese (35:21):
Well, if I were to watch anybody in a meeting when
they're feeling nervous, worried, anxious, guess what they're
gonna show up with that?
Maybe they don't speak at all,maybe they ramble, uh, maybe
they talk too fast becausethey're really really, really
nervous.
And so there are five minutesof the meeting.
They, you know, they just tryto run through everything, and
(35:41):
then what happens is people justuse our behaviors to tell them
how to interact with us, and sothey might not speak up.
After you speak up, or now theymight be asking you a lot of
questions that are poking at,like, what do you really know?
And then, all of a sudden, youleave that meeting and you're
(36:04):
like, see, I screwed up, I don'tknow what I'm doing.
And so it's universal, tim, andwhether I'm coaching a C-suite
person or someone just enteringtheir career, it is the one
thing that I think we all haveto start managing the most,
because everything emanates fromthe voice in our head and it's
like a billboard on our forehead.
We may not think we're sayingit out loud, but we are
(36:26):
projecting it, and so if you'renot aware of that, that's like
the first thing to manage, andI'm not a fan of trying to, like
you know, just just you knowfool yourself with platitudes
like oh, you can do whatever youput your mind to, cause we
don't, you know.
I mean, we can say that toourselves.
But then our next thought islike, yeah, that's not true.
Tim (36:47):
Yeah, that's not true, and I think it's to learn the skill
of how.
Therese (36:51):
How can you offer yourself and catch yourself with
thoughts that are notsupportive of your goal?
And then how can I stay curiousabout it?
So, for instance, if yourthought is like you know, don't
screw up, they're going to findout, you know, you don't know
what you're doing, just pauseand say okay, is that true?
Would I say that to my bestfriend?
(37:12):
What evidence do I have thatsays I don't know what I'm doing
?
And if you, that can be a 20second pause.
And then, if you stay curious,then the next thing is okay.
Well then, what is true andwhat could help me in this
meeting?
And so it's not like oh don'tworry, everything will work out
fine.
Maybe more supportive self-talkis you don't have to be perfect
(37:35):
at everything, stay curious.
Talk is you don't have to beperfect at everything, stay
curious.
And now your anxiety may not beat a 10, might be at a three,
and I guess what?
Sometimes the best value youbring in the meetings isn't like
I have to say something smart,sometimes it's I have to ask a
good question.
I just that's your contribution, to stay curious and like wow,
(37:58):
have we ever thought about thisor how would this impact that?
And all of a sudden people arelike, wow, what a great question
.
And so.
I think we can relieve ourselvesfrom this thinking sometimes of
like we have to be perfect orwe have to say the exact right
thing.
Tim (38:13):
Let me ask you a question about questions, because I'm
somebody that I ask a lot ofquestions and most of the time
when I'm asking those questionsit's because I need clarity.
It's very rarely ever am Ichallenging somebody.
It's more for clarity, it'smore for guidance, it's more for
(38:35):
those types of things.
It's more for clarity, it'smore for guidance, it's more for
those types of things.
What are some techniques?
Because when people askquestions, a lot of times the
people that are being asked thequestions they're feeling
attacked or challenged for somereason.
What are some techniques forthe questioner to be able to ask
(38:57):
questions so that the personbeing questioned doesn't feel
attacked?
Therese (38:59):
Yeah, yeah, questions can really come off as something
that we have to defend ordeflect, and if you're not
trying to do that, as youdescribed, they have a very
simple, very simple thing youcould start to do, and that is
add context to why you're askingthe question, and that is add
context to why you're asking thequestion Meaning.
(39:19):
So, like you just said, I'mjust trying to continuously
improve or understand more.
That's your motive for asking aquestion, and if people don't
know your motive, then usuallythey assume the worst.
So, for instance, let's say youknow, you know, just for speed,
you ask a question like why didyou do it that way?
(39:41):
Why did you do it that way?
To others.
The way it hits their ears islike I got to defend why I did
it this way, and he doesn't knoweverything about why I did it
Right, and so the responsesyou're going to get feel like
they're from a defensive posture.
But if you just said, hey, I'mstill in learning mode, I'm not
(40:01):
looking to point fingers, I'mjust looking to improve the
process overall.
Why did you do it that way?
Well, now someone knows, right,like, oh, I'll probably tell
you a lot more, as opposed tohold and hide some information,
right, because I know whatyou're trying to get at.
If you don't share context towhy you're asking a question,
(40:23):
most people will make a wrongassumption about it.
And then you get weird answersor you get like this you know
defensive posture and you'relike wait, I, I, I didn't, I
didn't want this to go in anegative way and all of a sudden
now feels like you know, I'm alawyer, you know asking tough
(40:43):
questions to, you know plaintiff.
Tim (40:49):
Yeah, you start hearing the law and order theme in your
head.
Is there any you know?
Is there one or two tips thatwe haven't talked about that
young professionals could startdoing now?
That would benefit them asthey're starting their jobs or
they're ready to move up to thenext level in management or
(41:11):
leadership.
Therese (41:12):
Yeah, I mean we covered several of them from the book
Mindset Listening Story.
Here's the next one I wouldgive Engaging with Presence.
So this is the idea thatthere's something called status
behaviors that you know, when wewere, you know our ancestors
were first walking the earth, wewere looking for signals from
(41:35):
others that would tell us oh, Ishould follow them, they'll keep
me safe, they'll protect meright, they'll find a food
source right.
We were before.
We had communication likeverbal communication.
We were looking for signals.
That has not really completelyleft our DNA.
And so even when you'restarting off in your career,
where you may not havepositional power right, maybe
(41:56):
you're the intern or it's likeyou're just a new associate Be
aware of the behavioral andverbal signals you're giving
that lower your status.
It's not to try to overpowersomeone.
The goal is to try to matchstatus with the people that
you're interacting with, right?
So, for instance, let's sayyou're about to graduate and
(42:19):
you're going for interviews.
Now, how you show up willindicate your status and trying
to match status.
An example of low status wouldbe well, I've only had one
internship.
I worked a retail job, but I'ma really hard worker.
What you just did there waslower your own status because
(42:39):
you pre-qualified yourcapabilities.
Instead, high status would havebeen I've have.
You know, I have an internshipexperience that has taught me X,
y and Z that I know I can applyto this job.
So now you're not highlightingyou know your.
You know the fact you didn'thave a lot of internships to
(43:00):
what you could springboard fromyour existing internship.
But it also is about howconcise you speak.
I have a nephew interviewingfor summer internships and the
thing he said to me is like youknow, I, I, when I get nervous
and I get asked a question, Iramble, and so a status change
for him is to practice how toanswer questions concisely,
(43:24):
right, right.
So that's, that's going tomatch status.
You know making eye contact,even virtually right You're
making eye contact how you'reholding your posture.
So I would encourage, likethat's another area to really
focus on, because it's sendingall these nonverbal signals that
indicate, Ooh, I should keeplistening to you or I think I'll
(43:44):
pass.
Tim (43:45):
Right, yeah, you know that, that that whole interview
process is is again, I, think weput so much pressure on
ourselves, and one of the thingsthat I talk about a lot in in
preparing people for for jobinterviews is you're going to be
asked questions.
That number one you should beprepared for, and if you get
(44:06):
nervous, the whole thing isthink about it in bullet points,
you know.
Here's two things that youshould know about me.
Oh, here's three things that Idid in that job, and it really
kind of gets your brain backinto being one point and being
succinct and by saying here'stwo things, whoever's listening
(44:27):
is going to say wow okay.
They're not going to expect,you know, to get the answer
three minutes later down theroad.
They're going to say okay, bam,bam.
Therese (44:39):
That's exactly the advice I gave to my nephew,
because it gives you a littlebit of a track, right, if you
start with there's three thingsor there's two things, now you
have a little guardrail that youput up virtually, you know,
mentally, for yourself to stayon point.
Tim (44:55):
Right, but it's hard.
I you know, especially the way,the way that we do interviews.
Now, a lot of times you knowwhether it's every on the phone
interview like this, and I tellpeople they have to be
comfortable with no matter whatit is.
Yeah, I'm, I'm much better inperson than I am on something
(45:17):
like this, but we still have topractice.
We still have to get better.
And even even though, for me,I'm much better in person, I
still have to practice.
I still have to get better andunderstand that, no matter where
we are, we can always getbetter.
Even, I would say even the, the, the, the best of the best that
we, you know, see, you know thetony robbins, the simon cynics,
(45:41):
the, you know lewis howes ofthe world who are doing these
things, and, and and are the bignames.
I'm telling you they'repracticing oh 100.
Therese (45:51):
And what you weren't, what you didn't see, what none
of us saw was 20 years ofgrinding and making mistakes,
Like we only see them at thepinnacle of their career and
you're not recognizing all thesethings they had to learn to do,
just like, like we do.
I think the point you made isbrilliant about practicing.
It's one thing to like mentallyprepare for an interview, but
(46:16):
once you now are nervous andyou're looking at you know
another person's face and nowyour self-talk is getting all
like oh my gosh, this is so.
You know what if I don't get it?
What if they don't like me?
Practicing helps you create themuscle memory to be able to
manage through moments where youfeel a little anxious.
And I'll give you one other tipthat actually helped me last
(46:37):
week.
Most of us now are using AItools that transcribe our
meetings, and this tipimmediately helped me.
I went back and I read mytranscript of a meeting I had
and I realized how many times Iused the filler word so, so,
(46:59):
this, so that, and I like, oh mygosh, I wasn't even aware of it
.
There's so many tools now thatcan even help us catch and
become more self-aware of how wecommunicate.
Tim (47:15):
You're spot on with that.
You really are.
And it's funny that you bringthat up, because you know, when
we did the pre-interview, youknow, my wife was sitting right
next to me and she said do youknow how many times you said
right?
You would ask a question, youwould say right, or you'd make a
statement and you'd say right.
I said I had no idea and I'lltell you.
(47:37):
And then I put then I pulledthose.
I did exactly what you did.
I pulled those transcripts.
Therese (47:41):
Okay, Goodness, oh, my goodness, you know here's where
I do think that sometimes we canhyper fixate on it and it's not
very helpful.
I do think there's a balance,because we all use filler words.
It's just how humans talk, andto try to like think, okay, I'm
never going to use a filler wordis just unrealistic, and most
(48:02):
of us don't catch other people'sfiller words unless it's
excessive.
Think we should all letourselves off the hook a little
bit.
We all do it.
The name of the game isn't totry to eliminate every single
(48:22):
filler word.
It's just to not have so muchof a pattern where we are using
it in every sentence.
Tim (48:30):
Right, and figure out why we're using it when we are using
it and work on whatevertechnique that is to to reduce
them.
Right, you know, whether it'ssilence, whether it's pausing to
think, whether it's confidence,whether it's preparation.
I mean, there's so manydifferent reasons why we do it
(48:50):
and there's some things, likeyou said we they're never going
to be completely eliminated buthow we can actually work on
reducing them in the situationthat we're using them repeatedly
.
Yeah, Nailing that down, butTherese, thank you so much.
Where can people find you ifthey want to work with?
Therese (49:09):
you?
Yeah Well, first find me onLinkedIn, so it's just my name.
I post very, very regularly andyou know content, just like
this.
The next best thing is to go tothe facilitation advantage dot
com.
A couple of things are there.
One is free self-assessment,and I'm a big believer of you
know, when you're trying tolearn some of these skills, like
(49:31):
, don't try to do it all at once, it's overwhelming and we
already have very full plates.
The self-assessment helps youjust pinpoint oh, I think I
could get better at this.
So if it's presence, if it'sstorytelling, if it's mindset
just like how you found the bookit's more of a resource, not to
be cover to cover, read, butlike go in the spot where you
(49:52):
feel like, oh, I could reallyimprove, and it would have a big
impact and proven it would havea big impact.
From there you'll also seethere's individual coaching.
We do kind of targetedworkshops on presence or mindset
or listening, and then fullworkshops on all of the
facilitation skills.
Tim (50:10):
Yeah, just kind of a shameless plug for you.
I really enjoyed the videoseries that you all did.
You know the pie chart of.
You know the different stages.
I thought that was at least forme.
It was very helpful andprovided you know a lot of great
information.
Therese (50:30):
Thank you.
We really wrote the book fornon-professional facilitators.
I think sometimes, when youhear the word facilitate, you're
like, well, I'm not a professor, I'm not a teacher, and what my
co-author and I really tried todo is like no, these are core
skills that everyone needs andif we can break it down into
(50:51):
something that feels a littlebit more reachable and
achievable, then we helpeveryone become better at, you
know, collaboration andcommunication.
Tim (51:02):
Absolutely Well.
Teresa.
Again, thank you so much forspending some time with the
Speaking with Confidencecommunity.
I really do appreciate it.
I thought you provided somereally good value, some great
tips for our audience to go outand start doing things now.
It's not something that youhave to wait a week to be able
to start implementing.
You can start doing some ofthese things today.
Therese (51:21):
So thank you so much Thanks.
This was a great conversation.
Tim (51:25):
Take care.
We'll talk to you soon.
Be sure to visitspeakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free ebook Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theForming for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast
dedicated to helping you unlockthe power of effective public
speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
(00:30):
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is ThereseMicklow.
Therese is a leadershipdevelopment expert with 25 years
of experience developing andcoaching leaders in global tech
companies and small to mid-sizedbusinesses.
She is a co-author of theFacilitation Advantage, a book
that helps leaders develop theskills to guide teams
(00:51):
effectively and with empathy.
Today, she coaches leaders onhow to navigate complex dynamics
, lead authentically and buildworkplaces where both
individuals and teams can thrive.
Therese, welcome to the show.
Therese (01:04):
Thanks, it's so good to be here, tim.
Tim (01:06):
Oh, it's great having you and you know I mentioned to you,
you know, a few weeks ago thatyou know the pitch that you gave
me was probably to be on theshow was probably one of the
best I've ever seen and it'sperfect.
And I think that's really kindof leads into what we're going
to talk about how you kind oflead with value, you're specific
(01:33):
in the request and how you canbe beneficial in helping others.
Is that something that's kindof natural for you or was that
learned behavior from you?
Kind of give me a little bit ofinsight on that.
Therese (01:45):
Sure, it's very much learned behavior and I think
it's a skill and I think this istrue for all of us who have
some sort of domain expertise orsubject matter expertise and
the thing I've learned over theyears is that if you can step
out of your own needs and intothe shoes of others, then you're
already better at craftingcommunication or messages,
(02:07):
because you're not thinkingabout it from your vantage point
, you're thinking about it fromyour audience's vantage point.
And so I always begin, or learnto begin, as I'm trying to
influence or engage with people,to think about what are their
pain points Like, what are theytrying to accomplish?
Because when I can communicateit in a way that addresses those
(02:29):
pain points or their needs ortheir focus areas, it's going to
lead to a better conversation.
Tim (02:38):
Yeah, and I kind of approach things the same way and
how we go about communicating,those things really can come off
very very's.
I kind of approach things thesame way and you know there's
how we go about communicating.
Those things really can comeoff very, very differently,
right, you know, I like that,that you're, you're, you're
helping, you know, lead teamswith empathy.
And for somebody like, like,like me, I've been told that I,
(03:00):
that I'm abrasive and there's tome that's not how I, that's not
how what I'm actually trying todo.
So sometimes, you know, it'sword choice, sometimes it's tone
, sometimes it's how we actuallyapproach the situation, and so
for me, again, it's very much aprocess and learn behavior.
(03:23):
You know, I think people reallydo come with the idea of
leading with value and trying tohelp people for the most part,
but how we come across and doingthat is just really so
important and how that'sactually received.
Therese (03:35):
Totally and, I think, the skill to lean on.
So, even when you're comingwith that intention, but you
know, like you said, maybeyou're coming off as too
abrasive or too direct or tooindirect the place to go is
listening and I think it'sreally easy for us to think like
when we're trying to show upwith credibility and confidence
(03:58):
or communicate really well, thatwe think it's all about talking
about getting my point out, youknow, getting other people to
believe what I'm saying, and Ithink the counterbalance to that
that is as important as whatyou say is how you draw people
out, how you hear their point ofview first, instead of thinking
(04:19):
.
You know the mindset of Ibetter say something smart, or I
better you know word thisperfectly of I better say
something smart, or I better youknow word this perfectly and it
gets you kind of wrapped up inunproductive and unhelpful
thinking.
Tim (04:33):
It really does.
And you know the listeningpiece is, I guess is really one
of the most important pieces incommunication from my
perspective and you know I'mworking on on one of those on a
reel to put out about.
You know barriers tocommunication and one of them is
is the listening piece.
(04:53):
You know, as we're, as we'relistening are we, are we
listening, like you said, to tofind something really smart to
say right right are we listeningto wait till it's our turn to
jump in, or those types ofthings?
Therese (05:05):
The importance of listening again is a learned
skill, yeah, and I think,especially from a communication
perspective, it's often kind ofpushed to the side Completely,
and I think we all have toacknowledge that as humans, we
are not great listeners.
No, you know, that was alwaystrue.
(05:29):
Now, you know, in today's dayand age, where there's constant
interruptions and pings andemails coming in, it's obviously
gotten exponentially moredifficult.
But we're just not wired to begreat listeners to begin with,
and so I 100% agree we have tothink of it like a skill that
you've got to develop, and inthe book, one of the chapters is
(05:52):
really on the skill oflistening, and we focus on the
fact that there's layers tolistening.
You can listen at the surface,right, and that's just you're
listening for the raw facts anddata that people are telling you
.
Surface right, and that's justyou're listening for the raw
facts and data that people aretelling you.
But often there's, you know,what we call deep dive listening
.
There's so much under thecovers that people may not share
(06:13):
with you immediately until theyknow okay, you're going to
listen to me or I trust you, andso the skill is how can you
listen beyond the surface?
For what do they value, whatare their motivations, what's
the underlying issue?
And you will automatically showup as a better communicator if
(06:35):
you focus in on deep divelistening.
Tim (06:39):
Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought up the book because
and I've said this on thispodcast before I'm a little
different and so when I go, whenI get a book, I don't start at
page one and read through.
Therese (06:54):
It's just not what I do .
Tim (06:56):
Oh, this looks like an interesting chapter, and that's
right.
And then I, you know, go fromthere and the first chapter I
read was the listening chapter.
Yeah, and you know, and I alsolook at it from maybe some other
different perspectives too youknow, with where we're at in
(07:19):
society today, with so manypeople with ADD or ADHD, and my
ADHD is really, really bad, sowhen, when I'm really tasked
with listening, at the end ofthe day I'm, I'm, I'm, we're out
.
How do we, because it's soimportant, how do you coach
(07:42):
listening?
How do you get people,especially people like me, or
people that that have other, um,other other things that are
that are tugging at them to totruly focus and do be able to do
that deep dive listening?
Because, again, how of howimportant it is.
Therese (08:00):
Yeah, yeah, um, I think I think of it in kind of two
directions, and this is for allof us that are facilitating
conversations or leading teammeetings, and we have coworkers
and colleagues with ADHD,whether or not you know of a
diagnosis or not, and I thinkthe first thing is that we have
to be much more aware of thesignals people are dropping all
(08:21):
the time.
I'll give you a perfect example,too.
I was on a call this week and Ihave some people on that call
that have disclosed to me theyhave ADHD, and the meeting
leader was like on their owntrack and you could tell they
had their agenda.
They wanted to get through alot.
(08:42):
There's probably too much tocover in the hour that we had,
but that aside, I could see myother colleagues and we were all
virtual.
I could see them fidgeting, Icould see them looking around.
I could read the body languagethat said they're uncomfortable
right now, or they're trying toprocess, or you know what.
(09:03):
It's been a long time since theleader stopped talking to engage
us, and so that's the firstthing I would say for all of us
that have to leave meetingsafter meeting after meeting is
we have to be a lot better atrecognizing that when we see
signals that people are losingfocus, we've got to be able to
(09:24):
not necessarily call it outdirectly, but we need to shift
what we're doing, and I thinkfacilitation is just all about
choices.
So when I replay that meetingthis week.
The facilitator could have hadchoices or taken a different
choice.
Instead of just all right, juststay with me, we have 10 more
minutes.
She could have stopped and saidokay, I've talked a lot and I
(09:49):
know there's a lot of detailhere.
So what's landing for you rightnow?
What are you thinking about?
And that might've re-engagedthe minds of people that were
having trouble focusing.
So that's part A, like let'shelp others when we're leading
meetings.
And then for those that dostruggle to stay focused in
(10:10):
meetings, I think a couplethings.
One is to speak up, and you canspeak up without maybe pointing
out that you're having aproblem.
So it might be that you say,hey, I've got a question, and
when you engage, that might helpyou stay focused a little bit
more.
Right, you know, or gettingwhat you what you need, when you
(10:35):
know there's a lot ofinformation coming at you all at
once and it's feeling like justa wave of you know, data.
Tim (10:43):
Yeah, and again, you.
You bring up so many good pointsand I could, you know, go down
rabbit holes all the time withthis and being a leader, I think
it's very, very important thatyou know the people that you're
leading.
You have an understanding ofwho they are, you know what,
what their learning styles are,you know what I mean, being able
to watch them and see how theywork and be able to connect with
(11:07):
them on different levels andyou know I approach it from the
idea of a coach perspective onan athletic team.
You know you put people inpositions where they're going to
be successful.
You know that this person cando this, and then you coach them
in different ways.
How you talk to them is indifferent ways, and it really
shouldn't be any different inbusiness or your personal life
(11:29):
or anything like that.
It's understanding who youraudience is, understand who
you're leading and what theirgoals and objectives are, and
finding the best ways to guidethem to be able to get there
best ways to guide them, to beable to get, to be able to get
there.
Therese (11:48):
Yeah, I think that for all of us, the message is when
you, when you have to lead ameeting and let's say it's more
than two people you shouldnaturally assume that that
people are not going to be likeyou in terms of how they receive
information, right?
So for some of us, you know andmaybe that you relate to this
Tim like you're very direct, youtalk in bullets.
You'll relate to this Tim likeyou're very direct, you talk in
bullets, you get to the point,you're really efficient, right?
(12:09):
It's about efficiency and speedand that's great for people who
are in the meeting, who arelike that, who are like just,
bottom line for me Like I don'tneed the details, just tell me
bottom line.
But the chances are good thatthere are other people in the
room or on the call that arelike wait, wait, wait, wait,
hold up.
How did you reach thatconclusion?
Like, where's the data tosupport that?
(12:30):
I want to have more informationthan just you know.
Cutting to the chase andgetting to the bottom line and
you know I think of that asversatility that it's the one
skill that we all need in everyinteraction we have with people,
and that is to recognize thatyou know how I like to operate
in the world, or have meetingsor have discussions or have
(12:51):
information conveyed to me isnot the same for others, and the
more you're able to flex yourapproach, the more people want
to follow you.
The more you keep everyoneengaged, the more you influence,
and even when you don'tnecessarily have authority.
Tim (13:07):
But you have 10 minutes on the meeting agenda and you
really got to get people wrappedinto your idea quickly- Right,
and so that's again really goodpoints, and one of the things
how I handle those things is Istart right, right up front.
I'm going to give you the youknow the bullet points.
(13:28):
Here it is.
If you want more information,let me know.
I can cover it, I can send itto you how I'll give it to you
however you want it.
If you want me to slow down,tell me, slow down as well, but
I've got five minutes to getthrough this and I'll be happy
to to meet on the side, whateverit is, but giving them that
(13:48):
opportunity.
So for the introverts, who maynot necessarily want to speak up
, Right right.
You know they have anopportunity to oh wow, you know
they can, you know, get theirheart rate back down.
Therese (14:03):
Right, right.
And here's another choice CauseI think again, the more you
have choice moment to moment,the more effective you are at
communicating and engaging.
Another choice, tim, would beI'm not going to give
information, I'm going to tell astory.
Tell a story, you know, becausestory is a way that we make
meaning as humans, and it'ssticky.
(14:23):
So you're the eighth meeting ofthe day, everybody's tired,
they're exhausted and you wantto have, you know, make a point
that is going to stick and bememorable.
Throw out the slide and tell itin the frame of a story.
That's another option, exactlyas is like pausing and saying,
(14:43):
okay, you know, asking aquestion to engage people, or
saying you know, just as you did, tim, like okay, there's a lot
of information here.
Here's how.
I'll share it afterwards If youwant more detail.
Tim (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, but it's again.
I think come back to the veryfirst thing we talked about is
the whole idea of providingvalue and giving people what
they need.
You know right up front, andbringing their anxiety levels
(15:15):
down or putting them in themindset of okay, I don't have to
necessarily worry about askingquestions or doing this or doing
that.
This person or these peoplethat are running this meeting or
lecture or what have you, aretruly interested in helping and
that's just so important.
Therese (15:36):
Yeah, I think we can make it easier or more difficult
for people to engage with us.
We can make it easier or moredifficult for people to engage
with us, and it's just choices.
And I think, like another thingI feel like in my coaching of
leaders I correct a lot is weall have a tendency, if we're
presenting or got an update in ameeting, we say any questions,
(15:59):
any questions.
That's the worst, and one oftwo things either people are
sitting in the room like please,please, please.
Nobody ask a question.
We want to get out of here,right, but it's also just, it's
a throwaway question.
People don't usually engagewith that because it's not
curious, right?
It's like well, what are youasking me about, you know, and
(16:21):
the weather, that last slide.
And I think we could be so muchmore effective if we ask more
curious questions and never saidagain Any questions.
Tim (16:34):
Any questions.
Yeah, I'm so guilty of thatsometimes.
And you get to the end, or evenin the middle right, and it's
your time to to re-engage.
Yeah, catch your breath and youknow you're.
You're thinking okay, this is,this is what I want to say, and
it comes out as any questions.
Therese (16:55):
Oh my god yeah, oh, you're awesome.
You are not alone.
That's not everybody what I'msaying you know, it's so easy.
It's so easy, yeah, I thinkmaybe.
The message, though, is, if youwant to be a really good
communicator and, again, most ofus focus on, okay, the slides,
the details, getting our messagestraight If you could spend
(17:17):
another 90 seconds thinkingabout what am I curious to know
from my audience and don't wingit, because I think when we wing
it, the question is anyquestions.
But if you spent 90 seconds ortwo minutes like, okay, what am
I really curious about to hearfrom this group and how can I
formulate a question thatreflects that curiosity, I would
(17:40):
almost bet that you're going toget more engagement, because
people are really noticing thatyou actually want my opinion.
You're not just, you know,offering the you know throwaway
question.
Tim (17:54):
Right, Right, it's, and it's again.
It comes back to, like you said, preparation and and being in
the moment, and.
And comes back to, like yousaid, preparation and being in
the moment and being able tocommunicate that and understand
that.
And I think you agree with this.
This isn't easy.
This isn't something that justkind of happens.
It takes work, it takespractice, it takes repetition,
(18:19):
repetition and I think,especially from a leader's
perspective, the people thatyou're leading, if they see that
you're trying, if they see thatyou're improving and you're
trying to get better, they'reall in helping facilitate that
as well.
Therese (18:38):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And I was having a conversationwith someone this week about
you know, your vulnerability asa leader can actually be your
strength, because no one'sperfect, and I have found that
the leaders that I've workedwith that will disclose hey,
like I'm not, I'm still tryingto get better at this or, you
know, it's totally fine if yougive me feedback, because I'm
still trying to learn.
This instantly makes me want tofollow them more, because
(19:02):
they're not intimidating.
They're like, of course, likenone of us are good at
everything, and it also gives mepermission to feel like I don't
have to be perfect, because Iknow I'm not, and um and so it.
Yeah, I don't think that youhave to give on airs Like you
have it all figured out at alltimes right, because we don't.
Tim (19:21):
I don't think, I think anybody does and and I think, no
matter how good you think youare, you're going to run into a
situation that you've neverdealt with before, yeah, and
you're going to have to tofigure it out, and then I, I
think it's it's also importantto to go back and self-reflect
and self-evaluate and also bewilling to have that feedback
(19:47):
from other people and own whatyou did or didn't do, right.
You know, I've worked with somepeople that, for whatever
reason, just had a tough timeowning what they did or didn't
do.
Tough time owning what they,what they did or didn't do.
Therese (20:01):
you know, and it's a part of that, if, if you can't
do that that's something thatthe people that you're leading,
are going to see and are goingto resent you for, yeah, it's a
real derailer, because I thinkthat you know a lot of the
companies that I work inside,the really the ones with the
great culture and where theyattract great talent.
(20:25):
They know that what successlooks like is not just what you
do but how you do it Right, andand those are those in many
companies that have like thebest leaders they see that as
equivalent, because we probablyall know, if you worked in, you
know companies, salespeople whoare maybe great at hitting their
quarterly numbers but nobodywants to work with them Right,
(20:49):
and that string eventually runsout.
And so at least I find rightthat eventually.
It does Right that it'll catchup with you because you're going
to lose good talent.
You know people will doeverything to work around you
and you know the companies thatare, I think, really advanced in
the way they develop leadersand create a culture.
(21:10):
Recognize it's the what and thehow that defines your
performance.
Tim (21:15):
Yeah, and you know, I spent , you know, the majority of my
career in higher ed and that'swhat you see in higher ed.
In higher ed, there really isno, there is no process for
training leaders, becausegenerally how it works is you're
a professor and most professorshave never really worked in
(21:37):
business, yeah, and which andmost professors have never
really worked in business.
They have no training in in howto lead or how to deal with
people, any type of managementstructure.
And then they become departmentchair and now they're in charge
of a group of faculty that theyhave to manage, that they have
to evaluate.
No training there.
And then they get bumped upinto a dean position.
(21:59):
Now they've even got a biggerbudget and there's no training.
Therese (22:12):
You know, though, tim, there's so many parallels from
academia to business, becausethat's been my experience in
most companies, particularlythose that are fast growing, is
that you get promoted becauseyou're good at your subject
matter expertise.
But the reality is that you'reright, leadership is a different
skill set, and you can't muscleit through just because you
(22:32):
have subject matter expertise,especially when you get promoted
into roles as a team leader ormanager, director, vice
president, and it doesn't justcome with the title, and it
really is a set of skills.
That you're right.
You know whoever taught us tolisten?
you know, I never went to alistening class in college or
(22:53):
you know, we learned it from ouryou know people around us right
, those that modeled it eitherin a good way or a bad way, and
there's an easier way to getpeople transitioning to
leadership roles to bewell-equipped to perform in this
new function.
Tim (23:15):
Yeah, and I wish there'd be more more of an open being open
to doing that, because how muchmoney and time and resources
are lost to not doing that whenyou, when you could.
Just the amount of money thatit will cost in time to, to, to
(23:38):
do the training, to, to buildpeople up like that with ascule,
compared to what you'reactually losing, I mean the
return on investment of that, ishuge.
Therese (23:47):
Yeah, I've worked with some clients that were able to
actually quantify it becausethey had a nutrition problem, so
they were losing good talent,and you can work with your
finance person to actually put anumber to what it costs to when
you lose good talent and whatit costs to replace good talent
(24:08):
that you have to train and thetime and all that, and that goes
straight to the bottom line.
And so I think that in growingcompanies, where leaders at the
top are recognizing what's goingto prevent us from growing, is
leadership ready now.
You know that that becomes thebottleneck, and I'm working with
(24:29):
a client right now where thatthat's the case, because they
grew really fast and they havereally strong engineers and
technicians and all that gotthem to like director level and
they're not equipped to help thebusiness scale and navigate and
leading larger teams now right.
Tim (24:47):
I read a stat recently last week or two that those
companies that are spendingmoney on soft skills training
and leadership training areseeing like a 296% return on
that investment, which is which,which is huge.
Therese (25:08):
That's.
That's wonderful to see thatit's now, you know, quantifiable
.
And here's the other thing Ithink we all have to know you
know with, you know AI and thefact that you know work is going
to change.
You know it's coming that ifyou want to future and the fact
that you know work is going tochange, you know it's coming
(25:28):
that if you want to future-proofyour skill set, it's going to
be on these like communicationskills, facilitation skills,
because we're going to have AIagents that will be able to do a
lot of the work that doesn'tnecessarily require the human
interaction that we're going toneed.
So, to me, if you're thinkingabout how do I get ahead of the
curve and keep a growth mindsetaround how the world of work is
(25:52):
going to be reshaped sooner thanwe know, it's to double down on
what you offer, tim and the wayof communication and you know
how you build.
You know relationships andcollaborate and influence.
Tim (26:07):
Yeah, I agree, and and I don't.
I don't understand how we havegotten to the point where we're,
where relationships are reallynot not what we're building is
there.
They seem to be kind of pushedto the side.
And, and I don't care whatindustry that you're in or want
(26:29):
to get into or, like you justsaid, in the future it's still
going to require interpersonalcommunication.
It's still going to be aboutthe, the relationships that you
build, the network that youbuild, the um, those connections
, that connections, that'swhat's always really going to
matter anyway, and that's inbusiness and that's in our
personal lives all the waythrough.
Therese (26:50):
Totally.
I saw this quote and I thoughtof you, tim, from an academic
perspective.
But the quote was a C-plusstudent with an A plus network
will always do better than an Aplus student with a C plus
network.
Right, and I think it isbecause that you know if you're
(27:12):
going to invest in your network.
That doesn't mean waiting forwhen you have to have a job or
you need to ask somebody youknow for a favor.
It's being really good atcollaborating and connecting and
communicating and keepingrelationships you know growing
and afloat.
Tim (27:30):
Yes, and you know, you nailed it and that's something
that I would tell my studentsall the time and I would say I
would much rather have you be aC student doing these things and
showing effort and doing allthose things and then be an A
student and not doing the basicthings, because eventually it's
going to catch up to you.
Therese (27:51):
You know I earlier in my career I led university
relations for a multi-billiondollar company and you know we
would go to all these campusesand we had a big presence, all
that and we would bring, youknow, very qualified students to
our campus and interview andmore often than not it wasn't
(28:12):
just those with the straight.
You know 4.0, gpa and you knowperfect credentials, because if
they could not interact well andbe able to answer questions and
ask questions, they would notget an offer.
And I think they were stunnedof like I did everything right.
I got you know perfect gradesand the reality is, in a work
(28:36):
environment, certainly your, youknow your ability to
demonstrate that you, you know,can learn fast and grades matter
.
So I'm not saying don't go toclass, but I am saying that if
it's hyper-focused on that andnot on what you offer and that
we have communication skills,you're missing the boat.
Tim (28:58):
Yeah, and again, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole
, but I've been saying this foryears From a societal
perspective, the way we approachhigher education is number one
it's not realistic, it's notsustainable and we're not doing
the we're failing our studentsbecause the focus is academics,
(29:21):
academics, academics, and that's.
That's just one of the reasonswhy we go to go to college.
Therese (29:26):
Yeah.
Tim (29:26):
There's a there's a social piece to it.
Right, there's a professionalpiece to it.
There's, you know, all thesethings that go into going off to
college and every all thepressure is on academics.
Yeah all the pressure is onacademics.
Yeah, and, and I would, I would.
(29:47):
When we do open houses, youknow, especially when I was at,
you know, a smaller school whereI was really involved in that,
I would.
I would tell parents, I wouldsay, look, you know, and they
would other professors.
The dean would look at me.
I would say, look, academics isimportant, but you also need to
look at, you know, what are theother things that are on campus
that your student would beinterested in?
Right, do they fit in?
Do they like the campus?
What clubs, what locallyinterests them?
(30:11):
Sure, and make some of thosedecisions, because there's so
much more to it.
And, yeah, academics isimportant.
Yeah, but it's not the end-all,be-all, yeah.
Therese (30:20):
Academics is important, but it's not the end all be all
.
Yeah, I have a recent collegegrad and the you know being able
to again see it from theacademic perspective as he was
going through college, but alsofrom the industry perspective.
The thing that you know waslike a non-negotiable for our
son was internships.
Non-negotiable for our son wasinternships starting your
(30:41):
freshman year, and it can be.
You are the you know sweepingthe floor at the warehouse, but
you're going to learn how tooperate inside.
You know environments where youhave to get things done through
others and it's not based ongrades.
And I'm such a wholeheartedbeliever in.
You know all these industriesare going through major
(31:03):
disruption, so academics is nodifferent, but it's, I think, on
the forefront of seeing howit's going to have to be a bit
of a reset, the whole paradigm.
And I think you know, as wewait to see all the changes that
will arise, I often think, okay, well, what can I do now?
If I'm a student, if I'm aparent, like hear about someone
(31:26):
who's early in their career orin their academic journey?
It's like it's these skills.
Tim (31:32):
It's and and and, and.
I think the way that we dointernships has to change, yeah,
and the way that we doexperiential learning from an
academic perspective has tochange.
It's great that they're goingout and getting these
experiences, but what's thecommunication piece Because
we're so worried about?
Oh, can you do this skill, canyou do this skill, but did you
interact in that meeting?
(31:52):
Were you invited to thatmeeting?
Therese (31:55):
Yeah.
Tim (31:57):
Did you interact in that meeting?
Did you send an email to yoursupervisor?
What was in that email?
How was it structured?
And have that looked at andevaluated by not only your site
supervisor but your academicsupervisor and really truly work
together, because, again, we'reso focused on the, on the task,
(32:21):
the skill.
Therese (32:24):
Yeah.
Tim (32:24):
The communication piece is left over here.
Therese (32:26):
It's true, we've got to change that, yeah, and you know
I know a lot of a lot ofschools have team-based projects
and you know it's so cliche butright Like oftentimes, maybe
you had this, if you ever havetwo projects, Tim, you know, one
person feels like they did allthe work and the rest of the
people just like rode thecoattails.
And I was talking to someoneearlier in their career and they
(32:48):
said you know, what nobody toldme is that everything at work
is basically a group project.
I thought I was going to leavethat, you know, on campus, and
the reality is is like I don'tknow any company or job where
it's not matrixed anymore, RightMeaning you have to work across
you know functions, levels,layers, and guess what?
(33:12):
You're going to run into peopleat work that have a different
approach to you, a differentcommunication style to you, and
it's the number one thing you'regoing to need to navigate is
relationships.
It's you know, careers are likeone big group project.
Tim (33:28):
Exactly, and you know when I would say that to my students,
they would look at me like DrMina, you have no idea what
you're talking about.
I said, okay, give it a shot.
Yeah, you know.
And give it a shot, yeah, youknow.
Therese (33:41):
And yeah, I think that's why internships are so
incredibly vital because you,you have to experience it and I
think you know this is just trueof all of us when we're young,
right like we have to kind ofexperience it ourselves before
we really like, oh, okay exactlysaying it, but now I actually
get it.
Tim (34:01):
Now I understand it.
Therese (34:02):
Yeah.
Tim (34:02):
Yeah, yeah.
So that also kind of gets meinto the idea of mindset right,
how our self-talk really kind ofguides our mindset.
From the work that you're doing, are you finding, even in
(34:24):
leaders and CEOs and C-suitefolks, that they're having some
of the same issues that youngprofessionals are in terms of
imposter syndrome, negativemindset, negative self-talk,
those types of things?
Therese (34:40):
Yeah, it's universal, that you know.
Most of us have a lot ofchatter in our head, right, and
we speak to ourselves all thetime, whether or not we're aware
or not, and it has a hugeimpact on how we show up,
because our thoughts drive ouremotions, which drive our
behavior.
So, for instance, if I'm in ameeting and I'm saying to myself
(35:01):
you know, don't screw up, youbetter say something smart,
right?
Like everyone's going to figureout, you don't know what you're
doing, right?
Well then, how do you thinkyou're going to feel when you
think that thought?
Tim (35:12):
Yeah, you're gonna screw up .
Yeah, your feelings areprobably like nervous, anxious,
worried, right.
Therese (35:21):
Well, if I were to watch anybody in a meeting when
they're feeling nervous, worried, anxious, guess what they're
gonna show up with that?
Maybe they don't speak at all,maybe they ramble, uh, maybe
they talk too fast becausethey're really really, really
nervous.
And so there are five minutesof the meeting.
They, you know, they just tryto run through everything, and
(35:41):
then what happens is people justuse our behaviors to tell them
how to interact with us, and sothey might not speak up.
After you speak up, or now theymight be asking you a lot of
questions that are poking at,like, what do you really know?
And then, all of a sudden, youleave that meeting and you're
(36:04):
like, see, I screwed up, I don'tknow what I'm doing.
And so it's universal, tim, andwhether I'm coaching a C-suite
person or someone just enteringtheir career, it is the one
thing that I think we all haveto start managing the most,
because everything emanates fromthe voice in our head and it's
like a billboard on our forehead.
We may not think we're sayingit out loud, but we are
(36:26):
projecting it, and so if you'renot aware of that, that's like
the first thing to manage, andI'm not a fan of trying to, like
you know, just just you knowfool yourself with platitudes
like oh, you can do whatever youput your mind to, cause we
don't, you know.
I mean, we can say that toourselves.
But then our next thought islike, yeah, that's not true.
Tim (36:47):
Yeah, that's not true, and I think it's to learn the skill
of how.
Therese (36:51):
How can you offer yourself and catch yourself with
thoughts that are notsupportive of your goal?
And then how can I stay curiousabout it?
So, for instance, if yourthought is like you know, don't
screw up, they're going to findout, you know, you don't know
what you're doing, just pauseand say okay, is that true?
Would I say that to my bestfriend?
(37:12):
What evidence do I have thatsays I don't know what I'm doing
?
And if you, that can be a 20second pause.
And then, if you stay curious,then the next thing is okay.
Well then, what is true andwhat could help me in this
meeting?
And so it's not like oh don'tworry, everything will work out
fine.
Maybe more supportive self-talkis you don't have to be perfect
(37:35):
at everything, stay curious.
Talk is you don't have to beperfect at everything, stay
curious.
And now your anxiety may not beat a 10, might be at a three,
and I guess what?
Sometimes the best value youbring in the meetings isn't like
I have to say something smart,sometimes it's I have to ask a
good question.
I just that's your contribution, to stay curious and like wow,
(37:58):
have we ever thought about thisor how would this impact that?
And all of a sudden people arelike, wow, what a great question
.
And so.
I think we can relieve ourselvesfrom this thinking sometimes of
like we have to be perfect orwe have to say the exact right
thing.
Tim (38:13):
Let me ask you a question about questions, because I'm
somebody that I ask a lot ofquestions and most of the time
when I'm asking those questionsit's because I need clarity.
It's very rarely ever am Ichallenging somebody.
It's more for clarity, it'smore for guidance, it's more for
(38:35):
those types of things.
It's more for clarity, it'smore for guidance, it's more for
those types of things.
What are some techniques?
Because when people askquestions, a lot of times the
people that are being asked thequestions they're feeling
attacked or challenged for somereason.
What are some techniques forthe questioner to be able to ask
(38:57):
questions so that the personbeing questioned doesn't feel
attacked?
Therese (38:59):
Yeah, yeah, questions can really come off as something
that we have to defend ordeflect, and if you're not
trying to do that, as youdescribed, they have a very
simple, very simple thing youcould start to do, and that is
add context to why you're askingthe question, and that is add
context to why you're asking thequestion Meaning.
(39:19):
So, like you just said, I'mjust trying to continuously
improve or understand more.
That's your motive for asking aquestion, and if people don't
know your motive, then usuallythey assume the worst.
So, for instance, let's say youknow, you know, just for speed,
you ask a question like why didyou do it that way?
(39:41):
Why did you do it that way?
To others.
The way it hits their ears islike I got to defend why I did
it this way, and he doesn't knoweverything about why I did it
Right, and so the responsesyou're going to get feel like
they're from a defensive posture.
But if you just said, hey, I'mstill in learning mode, I'm not
(40:01):
looking to point fingers, I'mjust looking to improve the
process overall.
Why did you do it that way?
Well, now someone knows, right,like, oh, I'll probably tell
you a lot more, as opposed tohold and hide some information,
right, because I know whatyou're trying to get at.
If you don't share context towhy you're asking a question,
(40:23):
most people will make a wrongassumption about it.
And then you get weird answersor you get like this you know
defensive posture and you'relike wait, I, I, I didn't, I
didn't want this to go in anegative way and all of a sudden
now feels like you know, I'm alawyer, you know asking tough
(40:43):
questions to, you know plaintiff.
Tim (40:49):
Yeah, you start hearing the law and order theme in your
head.
Is there any you know?
Is there one or two tips thatwe haven't talked about that
young professionals could startdoing now?
That would benefit them asthey're starting their jobs or
they're ready to move up to thenext level in management or
(41:11):
leadership.
Therese (41:12):
Yeah, I mean we covered several of them from the book
Mindset Listening Story.
Here's the next one I wouldgive Engaging with Presence.
So this is the idea thatthere's something called status
behaviors that you know, when wewere, you know our ancestors
were first walking the earth, wewere looking for signals from
(41:35):
others that would tell us oh, Ishould follow them, they'll keep
me safe, they'll protect meright, they'll find a food
source right.
We were before.
We had communication likeverbal communication.
We were looking for signals.
That has not really completelyleft our DNA.
And so even when you'restarting off in your career,
where you may not havepositional power right, maybe
(41:56):
you're the intern or it's likeyou're just a new associate Be
aware of the behavioral andverbal signals you're giving
that lower your status.
It's not to try to overpowersomeone.
The goal is to try to matchstatus with the people that
you're interacting with, right?
So, for instance, let's sayyou're about to graduate and
(42:19):
you're going for interviews.
Now, how you show up willindicate your status and trying
to match status.
An example of low status wouldbe well, I've only had one
internship.
I worked a retail job, but I'ma really hard worker.
What you just did there waslower your own status because
(42:39):
you pre-qualified yourcapabilities.
Instead, high status would havebeen I've have.
You know, I have an internshipexperience that has taught me X,
y and Z that I know I can applyto this job.
So now you're not highlightingyou know your.
You know the fact you didn'thave a lot of internships to
(43:00):
what you could springboard fromyour existing internship.
But it also is about howconcise you speak.
I have a nephew interviewingfor summer internships and the
thing he said to me is like youknow, I, I, when I get nervous
and I get asked a question, Iramble, and so a status change
for him is to practice how toanswer questions concisely,
(43:24):
right, right.
So that's, that's going tomatch status.
You know making eye contact,even virtually right You're
making eye contact how you'reholding your posture.
So I would encourage, likethat's another area to really
focus on, because it's sendingall these nonverbal signals that
indicate, Ooh, I should keeplistening to you or I think I'll
(43:44):
pass.
Tim (43:45):
Right, yeah, you know that, that that whole interview
process is is again, I, think weput so much pressure on
ourselves, and one of the thingsthat I talk about a lot in in
preparing people for for jobinterviews is you're going to be
asked questions.
That number one you should beprepared for, and if you get
(44:06):
nervous, the whole thing isthink about it in bullet points,
you know.
Here's two things that youshould know about me.
Oh, here's three things that Idid in that job, and it really
kind of gets your brain backinto being one point and being
succinct and by saying here'stwo things, whoever's listening
(44:27):
is going to say wow okay.
They're not going to expect,you know, to get the answer
three minutes later down theroad.
They're going to say okay, bam,bam.
Therese (44:39):
That's exactly the advice I gave to my nephew,
because it gives you a littlebit of a track, right, if you
start with there's three thingsor there's two things, now you
have a little guardrail that youput up virtually, you know,
mentally, for yourself to stayon point.
Tim (44:55):
Right, but it's hard.
I you know, especially the way,the way that we do interviews.
Now, a lot of times you knowwhether it's every on the phone
interview like this, and I tellpeople they have to be
comfortable with no matter whatit is.
Yeah, I'm, I'm much better inperson than I am on something
(45:17):
like this, but we still have topractice.
We still have to get better.
And even even though, for me,I'm much better in person, I
still have to practice.
I still have to get better andunderstand that, no matter where
we are, we can always getbetter.
Even, I would say even the, the, the, the best of the best that
we, you know, see, you know thetony robbins, the simon cynics,
(45:41):
the, you know lewis howes ofthe world who are doing these
things, and, and and are the bignames.
I'm telling you they'repracticing oh 100.
Therese (45:51):
And what you weren't, what you didn't see, what none
of us saw was 20 years ofgrinding and making mistakes,
Like we only see them at thepinnacle of their career and
you're not recognizing all thesethings they had to learn to do,
just like, like we do.
I think the point you made isbrilliant about practicing.
It's one thing to like mentallyprepare for an interview, but
(46:16):
once you now are nervous andyou're looking at you know
another person's face and nowyour self-talk is getting all
like oh my gosh, this is so.
You know what if I don't get it?
What if they don't like me?
Practicing helps you create themuscle memory to be able to
manage through moments where youfeel a little anxious.
And I'll give you one other tipthat actually helped me last
(46:37):
week.
Most of us now are using AItools that transcribe our
meetings, and this tipimmediately helped me.
I went back and I read mytranscript of a meeting I had
and I realized how many times Iused the filler word so, so,
(46:59):
this, so that, and I like, oh mygosh, I wasn't even aware of it
.
There's so many tools now thatcan even help us catch and
become more self-aware of how wecommunicate.
Tim (47:15):
You're spot on with that.
You really are.
And it's funny that you bringthat up, because you know, when
we did the pre-interview, youknow, my wife was sitting right
next to me and she said do youknow how many times you said
right?
You would ask a question, youwould say right, or you'd make a
statement and you'd say right.
I said I had no idea and I'lltell you.
(47:37):
And then I put then I pulledthose.
I did exactly what you did.
I pulled those transcripts.
Therese (47:41):
Okay, Goodness, oh, my goodness, you know here's where
I do think that sometimes we canhyper fixate on it and it's not
very helpful.
I do think there's a balance,because we all use filler words.
It's just how humans talk, andto try to like think, okay, I'm
never going to use a filler wordis just unrealistic, and most
(48:02):
of us don't catch other people'sfiller words unless it's
excessive.
Think we should all letourselves off the hook a little
bit.
We all do it.
The name of the game isn't totry to eliminate every single
(48:22):
filler word.
It's just to not have so muchof a pattern where we are using
it in every sentence.
Tim (48:30):
Right, and figure out why we're using it when we are using
it and work on whatevertechnique that is to to reduce
them.
Right, you know, whether it'ssilence, whether it's pausing to
think, whether it's confidence,whether it's preparation.
I mean, there's so manydifferent reasons why we do it
(48:50):
and there's some things, likeyou said we they're never going
to be completely eliminated buthow we can actually work on
reducing them in the situationthat we're using them repeatedly
.
Yeah, Nailing that down, butTherese, thank you so much.
Where can people find you ifthey want to work with?
Therese (49:09):
you?
Yeah Well, first find me onLinkedIn, so it's just my name.
I post very, very regularly andyou know content, just like
this.
The next best thing is to go tothe facilitation advantage dot
com.
A couple of things are there.
One is free self-assessment,and I'm a big believer of you
know, when you're trying tolearn some of these skills, like
(49:31):
, don't try to do it all at once, it's overwhelming and we
already have very full plates.
The self-assessment helps youjust pinpoint oh, I think I
could get better at this.
So if it's presence, if it'sstorytelling, if it's mindset
just like how you found the bookit's more of a resource, not to
be cover to cover, read, butlike go in the spot where you
(49:52):
feel like, oh, I could reallyimprove, and it would have a big
impact and proven it would havea big impact.
From there you'll also seethere's individual coaching.
We do kind of targetedworkshops on presence or mindset
or listening, and then fullworkshops on all of the
facilitation skills.
Tim (50:10):
Yeah, just kind of a shameless plug for you.
I really enjoyed the videoseries that you all did.
You know the pie chart of.
You know the different stages.
I thought that was at least forme.
It was very helpful andprovided you know a lot of great
information.
Therese (50:30):
Thank you.
We really wrote the book fornon-professional facilitators.
I think sometimes, when youhear the word facilitate, you're
like, well, I'm not a professor, I'm not a teacher, and what my
co-author and I really tried todo is like no, these are core
skills that everyone needs andif we can break it down into
(50:51):
something that feels a littlebit more reachable and
achievable, then we helpeveryone become better at, you
know, collaboration andcommunication.
Tim (51:02):
Absolutely Well.
Teresa.
Again, thank you so much forspending some time with the
Speaking with Confidencecommunity.
I really do appreciate it.
I thought you provided somereally good value, some great
tips for our audience to go outand start doing things now.
It's not something that youhave to wait a week to be able
to start implementing.
You can start doing some ofthese things today.
Therese (51:21):
So thank you so much Thanks.
This was a great conversation.
Tim (51:25):
Take care.
We'll talk to you soon.
Be sure to visitspeakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free ebook Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theForming for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com