How to Win Over Any Audience: Lessons in Stage Confidence and Storytelling from Magician Tom Elliott

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Have you ever wondered how seasoned performers capture and hold the attention of even the most distracted or reluctant audiences? On today’s episode of Speaking With Confidence, we answer that question and dig deep into what it really takes to build confidence, adapt on the fly, and show up authentically in every speaking situation—whether it’s a children’s birthday party, a raucous holiday park, or a high-stakes corporate keynote.

I’m Tim Newman, your host and recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I’m thrilled to share this episode with you because it offers a fresh perspective on stage presence, storytelling, and handling those inevitable moments when things don’t go as planned.

Joining me today is Tom Elliott, corporate event host, comedy magician, and storytelling coach, who brings a remarkable blend of entertainment expertise to the world of professional communication. Tom has performed across the UK for audiences that often weren’t there to see him, which has made him a master at winning over even the toughest crowds. His journey from performing magic and ventriloquism at children’s parties, to holiday parks and eventually the corporate world, is not only fascinating but full of practical lessons for anyone looking to build their influence through communication.

You’ll also hear us dig into:

• Tom’s origins in magic, ventriloquism, and the lessons learned from children’s parties and holiday park gigs
• Why corporate and holiday park audiences are worlds apart—and how to adjust your approach for each
• How to manage failing moments on stage and use them to grow (including both of our worst stories)
• The power of practicing in public, trying new material, and being willing to fail to get better
• What it really takes to grab attention in the first 30 seconds of any talk, meeting, or show
• How to dial up your natural personality traits by 10% for stage presence and audience connection
• The difference between internalizing your core message versus memorizing a rigid script, and how this helps you adapt with confidence
• Why personal stories work, even for people who are nervous to use them
• Building confidence through repeated action and practical strategies for anyone starting out (including organizing your own gigs!)

Tom also shares a free resource for anyone wanting to create a more engaging keynote, along with actionable tips you can put into practice right away.

Whether you’re a business leader, aspiring speaker, or someone who just wants to feel more at ease communicating when it counts, this episode is packed with insights, laughter, and the reassurance that failing is not the end—it's part of the path to becoming a powerful, confident communicator.

Thanks for joining us on Speaking With Confidence. Remember, your voice has the power to change the world!

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Episode Transcript

Tim Newman (00:10):
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence,
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead to real
results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor, attorney
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is Tom Elliott.

(00:30):
He brings a truly unique blendof entertainment and expertise
to the world of communication.
Tom is a corporate event hostand comedy magician who has
performed across the UnitedKingdom, capturing audiences
that didn't always come to seehim and learning exactly how to
win them over.
Now, Tom takes those sameskills, stage presence,
confidence, and storytelling,and helps entrepreneurs and

(00:52):
professionals step into theirown spotlight.
He's passionate about showingpeople how to internalize, not
memorize, how to grab attentionin those critical first 30
seconds, and how to bringauthenticity to every stage or
conversation.
Tom, welcome to the show.
I'm really looking forward totalking to you today because
you've got some skills thatnumber one that I love and that

(01:15):
I I'm not very good at.
So talking to people that thatthat have that is is fun for me.
So welcome.

Tom Elliott (01:22):
No, Tim, it's my absolute pleasure.
Thanks for thanks for havingme.

Tim Newman (01:26):
You know, you you've got like I said, you've you've
got uh skills that not that thatI that that love that you know
I can't do, but you also have aunique story.
What was the first thing thatkind of drew you into magic and
performance?

Tom Elliott (01:39):
Sure.
So it started really when I wasuh I was uh early teenage years
really.
Um a friend of mine was doingsome magic at school, uh like
card tricks.
And uh at the same time, um,slightly weirdly, I'd started
learning ventriloquism, right?
It's not something I doanymore, um, but uh I haven't

(02:01):
done it since then really.
But I I was learning it at thatpoint just out of interest.
And uh we teamed up, we becamereally good friends because we
both connected on this kind ofperforming idea.
Um so we became really goodfriends and we started doing
children's parties all aroundkind of Gloucestershire, where I
live here in the UK.
And uh we weren't very good.

(02:22):
Uh we charged £30.
I'm not sure what that whatthat is in dollars, but it's not
a lot anyway.
Uh, we charged 30 quid for a anhour's kids party, and we split
it between us.
So it wasn't the mostprofitable of enterprises, but
it was uh a lot of fun.
Uh to be honest, it probablywasn't even worth the 30 pounds
at the time.
We weren't that good, but um,we had a lot of fun and it

(02:45):
taught me a lot in those likedoing a children's party is
definitely a good way to learnthe skills uh of how to manage a
distracted crowd in particular.

Tim Newman (02:56):
Uh yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
So uh but I'm I'm I'm sure thatyou know they they loved what
whatever it was that you weredoing, so you know it it's also
kind of you know what lands andwhat doesn't, and herding cats
and laughing and and that thatsort of thing too.

Tom Elliott (03:12):
So kind of learn learn how to work the room
absolutely we did everythingfrom uh do you have brownies and
cubs and guides and that sortof thing in the States?
I'm not I'm not sure if youhave them, but we did a we did a
brownie camp, which effectivelya ton of girls at the time, um
and uh it was chaos, balloonseverywhere, uh with two kind of

(03:35):
16-year-olds trying to holdattention.
Uh it was chaos, but we learneda lot and you know it sharpened
us up.
I still think that I couldn'tdo what I do today doing
corporate stuff at corporateevents if I didn't have those
early experiences of kids'parties.

Tim Newman (03:52):
Yes.
So how how did that happen?
Uh you know, how did you gofrom that and and comedy
magician and the coaching worldsand and the and the corporate
worlds all all come togetherbecause to me this is this is
what really makes what you doreally unique?

Tom Elliott (04:10):
Sure.
So I mean opportunities justgrew really.
So it started doing kids'parties, and then I got invited
to do uh some other things thatwere kind of mixed of adults and
children, and then uh therecame a point at which I decided
I don't really want to be doingchildren's parties uh anymore,
and that's why I decided to pushthe more kind of adult family

(04:32):
oriented shows.
I started doing holiday parks,I did some churches, I did do
all sorts of things really, andthen um just as as I grew as a
performer and in what I did, uhother opportunities came.
And then in the last few years,kind of specializing, kind of
going all in on the corporate.
Um, I've tried the comedy club,very different vibe to uh the

(04:55):
kids' party and the holidaypark.
Holiday parks are interestingthough because again, people
aren't there to see you.
They've come for a holiday,they've come to have a drink,
get some chips.
Uh, and the worst thing of allabout holiday park is that you
follow three hours of bingodancing, um Billy the Bear,
whatever it is, their mascotdancing around, and then you're

(05:18):
expected to come on and hold thecrowd at nine o'clock at night
when it's five hours past thekids' bedtime.
Yeah, no, I get it.
It's just chaos.

Tim Newman (05:28):
So, what did you learn about the holiday park?
Because because again, to me,that it it's so fascinating and
interesting because like yousaid, it's the the parents are
running around and they've gotthe kids, like you said, past
the bedtime.
I know what kids are like whenthey're cranky and it's past
bedtime.
How did you what did you learnand how did you manage that?

Tom Elliott (05:47):
Yeah, I mean, so you you the the big the big
thing really is learning how tocapture attention.
So very much it was how how doI start my show?
There are certain routines inmy show that just don't work in
a holiday park environmentbecause they're built for um
they're built for an engagedaudience.

(06:08):
That if I'm trying to createsome sort of atmosphere, unless
it's the chaotic sort ofatmosphere, then it it's not
gonna work.
So I found straight away that aholiday park needs to be um
short, choppy, fast-paced, highenergy, go, go, go, go, go, uh,
the whole way through.
You you can't build any sort ofum arc of atmosphere uh in a

(06:31):
holiday park show.
Uh whereas in a theatre youcan.
Um so I I I was trying to doone of my favorite comics over
here in the UK is a guy calledJoe Pasquale.
And uh he's kind of ridiculoussense of humor, like really
silly in his style.
Uh, but one thing I love aboutJoe is that you'd be laugh,
laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, andthen towards the end of his

(06:53):
show, about 40 minutes in, whichis strategic because about 40
minutes in is when an audiencestarts to kind of dip in their
engagement.
Right.
Uh he changes things up and hecreates this like soft
atmosphere.
He has like piano music in thebackground, and he's still
telling jokes, he's still makingpeople laugh, but in a slightly

(07:14):
almost atmospheric way.
And it was so clever because itbuilt like an arc into the
show, uh, in the high energy,fast paced, big laughs, big
laughs, and then all of a suddenhe's telling a mock story which
isn't big laughs, but it'schuckles and it's funny, and
there's piano music in thebackground, and and then he'll
finish big again, but it createsan atmosphere.
You can't do that in a holidaypark.

(07:35):
I tried to emulate it, and inthe holiday park it just failed.
In fact, I remember a heckle ofa probably slightly drunk dad
in the room going, get on withit, Tom.
Because it it got boring in aholiday park.
It doesn't, it doesn't work inthat setting.
Right.

Tim Newman (07:51):
So so how long is a set in in a holiday park?

Tom Elliott (07:54):
So 45 minutes, which is a long set when Wow at
nine o'clock at night, whenyou've got families and there's
a and you've got um the gamemachines, gambling machines in
the background, no no no and thepool cues going off and the bar
being you're like it's it's ait's a horrible gig, but it

(08:14):
taught me a lot.

Tim Newman (08:19):
When you did like regular stand-up, you know, to
you know, to me, you comediansare are the to me some of the
some of the best communicatorsand storytellers because you
know that's that's really allthey're doing, and and they're
telling it in a way to to get aresponse, a laugh, a laugh
response out of you.
But you know, they also reallydo kind of practice the same way

(08:41):
we teach people to practice.
But you know, what what did youlearn from from doing stand-up?

Tom Elliott (08:48):
I think with with stand-up, you you learn well,
the two things.
You learn to uh well, noteverybody, but 90% of comedians
would I would say uh you learnto be yourself on stage but in a
funny and engaging way.
Um there are obviously thereare character acts which make a

(09:09):
lot of sense.
And in and in some wayseverybody's got a stage persona,
but um what I what I've triedto do is be myself on stage but
turned up 10%.
So I can go into more detail inthat in a minute.
The second one is you learn howto read a room, you learn very
quickly how to adapt to whatthat audience uh works.

(09:30):
The only way you learn comedyis by failure in public, and uh
you have to learn to be happyfailing in public and dying a
miserable death on stage uh infront of everybody.
And so the you have to gothrough that, and and what you
let you learn to adapt kind ofon the fly, or you look like in
the moment, you learn to sensewhat an all where where an

(09:52):
audience is behind you and whereit's backing off.
Um and and you learn to adaptaccordingly, and you you think,
oh, if I engage with that group,they'll they'll come towards
me, but actually there comes apoint which I need to ignore the
chaos over here because it'sdisruptive and or they're it
they're egging it on too much.

(10:13):
Or so you learn, yeah, youlearn to adapt in the room.

Tim Newman (10:17):
You know, it's it again, it's it it's funny
because you know you could dolet's just say you've got a
30-minute set, first 10 minutesyou could do great, and then
five minutes in you could saysomething that's not funny, and
you lose the audience, and youstill got you know 15 more
minutes left that you gotta getthem back.
You gotta get them back asquickly as you can.
Um otherwise that's a that's along 15 minutes.

Tom Elliott (10:41):
Absolutely.
So I I always think that thethe energy you bring to an
audience is the energy that theygive back to you.
Um so uh I'm I'm quite highenergy in in the way that I
present on stage.
Uh I'm quite uh positive, uhkind of cheerful in in my
approach.
Uh so I've been introducedbefore though by uh I don't know

(11:04):
managing director who'scompletely the opposite, and it
and it's a bit of a nightmarewhen that happens.
In fact, now I have my ownvoiceover to bring me on.
Because when you get alow-energy person introducing a
high, the audience werecompletely, it was a corporate
event, everybody's chatting, I'mstood in the wing, he's reading
through three pages of ascripted welcome speech, uh in a

(11:27):
kind of monotone voice, and I'mthere going, Oh, oh my days.
And uh because I had to run onfrom there and completely check,
but of course the audience werealready lost, they were already
chatting away.
Right.
Now, thankfully, with a bit ofyears of experience, it doesn't
phase me.
I I went on stage with myenergy, I did what I needed to
do, and the audience were withme with within a few minutes, um

(11:48):
within a few seconds, even.
Uh but but it's hard becauseyou you have to you you only
know that, and you can only doit by experiencing the the the
death of not being able to doit.

Tim Newman (12:04):
Right.
And you know, to tell me if I'mwrong here, you know, that
that's really no different thanstanding up on stage and giving
a keynote.
Right?

Tom Elliott (12:15):
No, not at all.

Tim Newman (12:17):
You know, you're because you you know, go ahead,
Tom.

Tom Elliott (12:21):
Sorry, g if if anything, giving a keynote is
slightly harder because at leastwith comedy, uh you've got a
audible reaction and a visiblereaction from the audience that
uh whether you've succeeded orwhether you've failed, as in,
did they laugh?
Yes, great, it's gone well.
Did they not?
When you're giving a keynote,you haven't always got that same

(12:43):
level of uh clarity as to whatthe audience is thinking.
It uh it can be quiteparticularly in a kind of formal
keynote, uh if you tell a funnystory, then great, you've got
that instant reaction.
But if you're going in straightwith a with with a kind of
teaching mentality, it's it'sit's very hard for people to

(13:04):
know whether that audience isfully engaged or not.
So there are there are ways ofdoing it, but uh I'd say some
ways it's harder giving akeynote because you haven't got
that instant recognition of whatyou're doing.

Tim Newman (13:18):
Yeah, and you know, j just to you know, kind of how
I think about that, the thecoach I'm working with right
now, you know, he's we'reworking on me giving him three
minute stories, right?
Right just three minute storiesthat I could input, you know, a
keynote here, you know,presentation of your what
whatever it is.
And I sent him one about twoweeks ago that I thought was

(13:38):
hilarious because I I I useself-deprecating humor, I I use
myself as as a punchline, thosetypes of things.
And he he's British.
And he sent it back to me, hesaid, Tim, this doesn't make any
sense.
And I was like, wow.
Yeah, I was like, I wow, thatthat's bizarre.
You don't know about this, youdon't but and it got me thinking

(14:00):
because you know, when you'rewhen you're doing a key night or
you're doing a presentation,you you don't truly know
everybody that's in there.
But if if somebody of of hisstature doesn't understand what
I'm talking about, more likelythan not the audience isn't
gonna know, and I've got to I'vegot to redo or rethink either
the story or the terminology, oris this just get rid of that

(14:23):
story altogether?

Tom Elliott (14:24):
Yeah.
But you you'll only ever knowthat by giving it a shot.
Uh and the the odd thing aboutit is that you can do that one
night and it can go down astorm.
You can do it the next nightand it dies completely.
Uh the the old British comedianKen Dodd, uh, do you do you

(14:46):
remember, do you do you know orremember Ken Dodd?

Tim Newman (14:50):
No.

Tom Elliott (14:51):
No, so uh, but he he used to keep a what he called
a giggle map, and he used tomap where his jokes, and he he's
known for going on for hours.
He he used to do theatres andthey'd go on for three or four
hours over the the time givenbecause he just end just endless
jokes and he was known for it.
And uh, but he he'd keep agiggle map and he'd literally

(15:14):
make note of where each of hisjokes, he was a bit of a
one-liner kind of guy, whereeach of his jokes worked and
where they didn't.
So he'd know that in up thenorth end of the country, he'd
know that these jokes work butthese don't, and down south he'd
know that these jokes work, butthese don't.
And he was uh, and it's yeah,it's known that he kept that map

(15:34):
of all of his material andwhere it worked and where it
didn't.
Because you're right, peoplefrom different backgrounds,
different places in the countryor even in the world understand
differently and don't getreferences that perhaps you're
familiar with.

Tim Newman (15:49):
Yeah, that that that's brilliant.
The the the giggle map.
Um I'm sorry, well, it's a goodit's a Google map, but but for
laughing, you know you know youknow, and that that that that's
it's genius, though, but butthat's what you have to do
sometimes.
Again, you we we talk aboutknowing your audience, uh how
important knowing your audienceis, and and and that's that's

(16:12):
really the should be the the thesole focus of of whatever it
is, whether it's just whetherit's stand up, whether it's a
holiday park, whether it's acorporate event, whether it's a
keynote, whether it's a teammeeting, doesn't really matter
where it is, that audienceshould be the number one focus
of everything that that you'redoing and saying.

Tom Elliott (16:28):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Um a corporate audience is verydifferent to a holiday park
audience.
A corporate the and the thehere's the big factor that I
find makes a lot of differenceis has an audience come to see
you or have they come foranother reason?
That their motive for coming tothe event changes the game.
I've got um I know a couple ofuh people here that are kind of

(16:52):
celebrity well-known comedians,and they and they've said that
it in some ways it gets easierwhen you're a well-known
comedian because people havecome, they've paid good money
because they know that they likeyou and your sense of humour.
So in some ways it's easier,you've got nothing to prove.
Uh whereas a new person or orsomeone that's not known,

(17:14):
someone that doesn't have a bigprofile, or or if they're doing
an event where the audiencedon't know who they are, you
you're almost having to win thataudience over every time that
you do an event.
Uh but the the flip side ofthat is that when a well-known
comedian tries new material,they don't really know if it
works or not, because they'regonna get a laugh anyway.

(17:36):
Because that new audience, thatso that audience that knows
them will find them funny,whatever they say.
And so it can be uh it can be afalse flag for them because it
can make them think that a jokeworks, and then they take it to
a a new audience somewhere andrealize, oh, it it didn't work.
So a lot of them in the UK uhturn up at comedy clubs

(18:00):
unannounced just so they canperform to an audience that
doesn't necessarily know themand their comedy, uh, because
they get a more realisticreaction then to the new jokes.

Tim Newman (18:12):
And that's again, that that goes back to practice,
practicing your craft becauseyou communication public
speaking is a craft.
You have you have to you haveto do it, you have to practice
it, you have to do those typesof things.
And and I love that whole ideaof of showing up unexpected and
um trying new things just to sitjust to see if it works.

Tom Elliott (18:32):
Yeah.
And trying new things.
I was challenged, there's a guyhere called Milton Jones, who's
a well-known comic, and hechallenged me, he said, Tom, try
and get 10% of new material inevery event that you do.
Uh, because he said the the thethe very fact that you're
forcing yourself to create newmaterial and put new stuff out

(18:53):
there and uh and step outsideyour comfort zone and just give
I don't know 10 minutes of ashow of the is of material that
you've not done before andyou're not sure how it's gonna
go, uh will stretch you beyondwhat you need.
So you're constantly on edgeand you're constantly thinking,
uh, how can I make this betterand and willing to fail as well.

Tim Newman (19:15):
Right.
That's talk a little bit aboutthat.
That whole idea of willing tofail.
I I again that I I love thatwhole idea.
That the the idea that willingto fail, you you have to put
yourself out there and bewilling for it to not work.
That's awesome.

Tom Elliott (19:28):
Sure.
There are ways, there are waysof doing it.
So uh you first of all,mindset-wise, you have to be
comfortable with I have to goand do this.
The only way to figure out ifthis is going to be good is to
go and do it.
And and I always say to myselfthat I know for sure, pretty
much 99% sure, that the firstversion of an idea will never

(19:51):
work, but I have to do it beforethe good ideas come.
So uh, and it it's a painfulreality because you're you're
there generating this firstidea, and in the moment you're
thinking, oh, that that'll work,that will work.
And then you take it to stage,but 99% of the time what you
thought would work in that firstidea never works, it normally
gets chucked.

(20:12):
Uh, and so it's it's aninteresting one because you
think it's gonna work, but thenyou also know that it's probably
not gonna work because it's thefirst time, it's the first
idea.
It's the third or fourth ideathat comes that works, or maybe
even the tenth idea, 11th idea.
But you'll never get thereunless you go through that first
idea, and so you have to keeppushing through this idea of

(20:35):
being kind of forced to fail inpublic.
The way I do it, there's twoways I do it.
Number one, there are there arereally important gigs, and
there are gigs that I can getaway with failing a little bit
more than as in, I don't reallywant to fail at a corporate
event.
They've paid good money for meto be there.
It's probably not the space forme to be trying new stuff.

(20:56):
But if I if I do the odd, Idon't know, it might be a comedy
club, uh, there's not a lot ofpressure on me to succeed.
It's good as I do, but it'sthere's not loads of pressure.
Um, so I can try stuff.
The other way of doing it, ifyou do want to try new material
in a high-stakes environment, isto try and sandwich the new

(21:18):
piece in between two solidpieces that you know work well.
Uh and and it's it's a littlebit trickier for a keynote
speaker to do this becauseobviously you're you're taking
the audience on a journey.
But for me, what that lookslike is I've got two tricks that
I know work really well, andI've got a new trick that I've
never done before, uh, with newjokes I've never done before.

(21:40):
What I'll do is I'll stick thatnew piece in between these two
solid pieces.
So that means that if all goeswrong, if it all goes wrong, I
can pull the audience back.
Uh I can build them up here, Ican then dip in this bit if it
doesn't go very well, but then Ican win them back in this piece
here.
Um and so I've that's enabledme to try the new material uh

(22:04):
and almost with a minimal viableproduct type approach.
Right.
Don't make the material, don'tdo 10 minutes of new material,
do a two-minute version of it,and then expand it gradually.

Tim Newman (22:15):
Yeah, and and and I like like the whole idea of if
it's not working, you can pullout and move on to something
that you know is gonna work, youknow, almost immediately.
That that's again, that'sthat's another another great
strategy.

Tom Elliott (22:29):
Because the audience won't then remember the
bit that failed, they'll onlyremember the bits either side.
Uh and so it the trickier ones,particularly for me, and again,
not so much, although thekeynote speaker would it would
apply to a keynote speaker ifyou're finished if you're
starting and finishing on astory uh that you need to lend.
Uh but the trickiest ones to totry in or to try other my

(22:54):
opening routine and my finale.
Because if if you mess up thebeginning and if you mess up the
end, you're gonna have adifficult show.
Or or the beginning more thanmore so than the end.
If you mess up the end, you youmight still be in with a chance
of the audience enjoying therest of the show.
But uh the beginningparticularly is really hard
because if you don't get a goodif you don't get off to a good

(23:16):
start, you've lost the audienceentirely.

Tim Newman (23:19):
Yeah, so let's talk about the beginning and and that
that first 30 seconds um thatthat is is critical for really
for doesn't matter what what itis, what whether it's stand-up,
whether it's at a team meeting,a keynote, doesn't really matter
what it is, that 30 first 30seconds that that you're that
that you start is critical.
Um tell me what what what youdo and and how you teach and

(23:43):
what what you teach people to doin that first 30 seconds.

Tom Elliott (23:46):
Sure.
So if you think about what youwhat you need to achieve in that
first 30 seconds, is you wantto capture their attention and
you want to share somethingabout who you are so that the
audience go, I like him.
Uh and so there's a few things.
First of all, the energy thatyou bring to an audience is the
energy they give back to you.

(24:07):
So if you are a low energyspeaker, as in quite formal, or
then you need to think reallyhard about how you're gonna
capture the audience.
There's nothing wrong withthat.
If that's who you are, thengreat.
But you need to think aboutokay, so I'm quite a low energy
speaker.
How am I gonna make sure thatthis audience is captivated by

(24:29):
what I do?
Um, for me, it's a little biteasier.
I'm high energy, so I make surethat my opening piece is big.
Uh, and so as I said, I I haveum a voiceover that brings me on
now, and it and it's designedto a get a laugh before I've
come on stage because I want theaudience to have that in their
minds.
Uh, this is gonna be funny, andthen it builds them up to a big

(24:52):
or a kind of big welcome.
I run onto stage and I swallowa balloon, okay?
Uh uh an inflated modelingballoon.
And so the reason for that, andI know I know keynote speakers
aren't going to start swallowingballoons at the beginning of
the keynote, but hear me out.
Um, what that does, it does afew things, it it establishes me
as high energy.
So the audience is going, oh,like there's something happening

(25:15):
in the room.
So I I then run onto stage, uh,I've made them laugh already
because the voiceover itself isfunny, and then I swallow a
balloon.
It's quite impressive, it looksimpressive, it's visually
impressive, uh, and it'sslightly gross, slightly um uh
but but also it's it'simpressive, it gets a bit of a
laugh or it gets reaction atmost at best.

(25:38):
Um what that does by thatpoint, I've got their attention.
If if that's all I've done, ifit all goes downhill from here,
I've I've got their attention inthose first 30 seconds, and
they've made that decisionwhether they like me or not.
What this translates like whenI teach people to in particular
in keynote, you want to bethinking about what what is it

(25:59):
about your characteristics,about who you are, that you
wanna that you want the audienceto connect with.
So I always say to people, whatwhat compliments were you given
when about your character,about your character or your
characteristics when you were akid?
So people used to say to me,and they still do, they say,
Tom, uh you're quite a kind ofcheerful person, and uh you're

(26:22):
always so I remember going to uha like having sleepovers as
with my mates as uh when I was ayoung person, and I'd wake up
in the morning and I'd bebuzzing, and they like I'd be
like I am now at seven o'clockin the morning, and they'd be
like, Tom, like how are you solike full of life at 7 a.m.?
Uh and and so I've identifiedthat as a bit of a

(26:43):
characteristic.
I'm high energy, quitecheerful, quite optimistic.
So I work that in.
And so if I was to ask an orone of some of your listeners or
you, what's thecharacteristics?
When you go onto stage, whatyou want to do is take that
characteristic and just turn itup by 10%.
Uh and what that enables you todo is it brings all the

(27:05):
characteristics that you wantthat audience to connect with,
it brings all those things thatpeople like about you, uh, but
it conveys it to the wholeaudience, which means you've
done two things.
You've uh got them to like you,but also you've uh you've built
that rapport, you've kept as inthey've connected in with you.
Uh but you're being authentic,uh, you're not trying to be

(27:27):
someone else, you're not beingthis weird stage persona version
of you.
You're being yourself, butyou've just amplified it for the
size of the audience that'sthere.

Tim Newman (27:39):
Yeah, that that is that's huge.
And and I think the the uh theidea that you uh you you take
something that you know isyou're like you said, a
characteristic of you that youknow that people like and using
that as opposed to um trying tofigure out whatever whatever it
is for each individual audience.
You know, and I'm I'm a lotlike you.

(28:00):
I'm not nearly as high energyas you, but yeah, I like I like
to I like to have fun, right?
Whatever whatever it is thatwe're doing, we're we're we're
gonna have fun, we're gonnalaugh, and most of the time
we're gonna have have fun andlaugh at me.
Um and and and again, that forme that that builds the
credibility that, okay, he'sokay with what whatever it is
that he does.
Like, you know, when we came onhere, I said if I say it, I say

(28:23):
it, it is what it is, and wemove on, right?
So, like for example, I've saidmy own website wrong probably a
dozen times, as as as manytimes as I've done this podcast,
I've said my own website wronga dozen times.
I just kind of laugh it off andand and fix it.
But you know, it's okay to makethose mistakes, it's okay to
laugh at yourself, and we're andwe're going to have fun doing

(28:43):
it and learn and learn.
And I I think if if peoplecould get out of their heads,
right?
Get out of that mindset ofpeople are judging them or
people are thinking about them,or I'm afraid to mess up, well,
guess what?
You you are gonna mess up.

Tom Elliott (28:56):
Yeah, it's gonna let it go.
Yeah, again, it goes that itgoes back, doesn't it, to that
willingness to fail.
And that uh if you can be ascomfortable, the aim of the
game, I think, is that if youcan be as comfortable on stage
in front of a hundred people asyou are when you're talking to

(29:16):
family members or friends, andyou're just having that social
conversation, if you can get tothat place when where you're 90%
as relaxed as you are in in asocial circumstance, then that's
a really good place to be.
Obviously, a little bit ofnerves, a little bit of uh kind
of heightened awareness is goodbecause that it keeps you on on

(29:38):
form.
Um but ultimately the audiencesneed to see that confidence in
you in order to then uh engageand listen to what you've got to
say.
That's what stage presence isultimately.

Tim Newman (29:52):
Yes, yeah, you you're absolutely right.
But but let's let's talk aboutfail moments because again, we
we've all had them.
Um I don't know if I told youthis, but I I've said before
that the very first time I washad to speak in front of a group
of people, I I l I threw up.
I I mean I literally threw up.
I it wasn't thinking about theI mean it it it it it actually

(30:12):
happened.
And so now then I went on to beto to have a career where I
talk in front of people all thetime.
So so having those failmoments, it's just a it's a
blip, it's a moment.
It's a whatever it's not yourlife, it's not who you are, it's
not your career.
It's just it's some somethinghappened.
How about you?
What what what what's yourbiggest fail moment?

Tom Elliott (30:34):
Well, so I've I've had a few.
Um so but let me let's go backto the holiday park scenario.
Uh a few years ago, I'd I'ddone a season of holiday parks.
I don't, I don't, I did quite afew of them.
Um there was an agent that I'dhad, and uh for some reason it
was just I was the thing at thetime in terms of holiday park.

(30:56):
I've done quite a few and I didit all the way through kind of
the summer season when holidayparks were packed and jammed.
They weren't my favourite, uh,but I did them anyway.
And uh as I said, I theysharpened me up, uh they
sharpened my act quite a lot.
But then I did one, so I'd beento this one particular holiday
park, it was a private holidaypark, and I'd been to this one

(31:18):
about three or four timesthroughout the whole summer and
had reasonable gigs there.
I I I'd adapted at this pointand I'd I'd learnt to put on a
show that worked.
Um, and then I had a finalbooking at that holiday park
that was outside of their summerseason, and so I I turned up in
the late September, and uh I ithad gone from this kind of

(31:43):
busy, thriving, loud holidaypark event to what then was in
the same in the very same roomthat I was before, but about 50
people.
Uh but it was before it waslike 200.
Now it was we're about 40, 50people, most of which were kind
of older couples who might own acaravan for their retirement,

(32:06):
uh, and and then a very youngfamily with like baby, right?
And I turned up, nine o'clockat night, barely anybody in the
room, the poor old red coat orwhatever you the guys before me
that were on were up and doingall the dancing, putting all
their energy into it with verylittle comeback.
I so I went on, did my show,and I did all the things that in

(32:32):
every other gig go down astorm.
Big laughs.
Uh I did all these little gagsthat I knew worked.
I went in with full confidence.
I went on with my full highenergy, hey, moment.
Uh, did all the stuff that Iknew worked and that I tried and
tested, didn't get anything.
It was like silent response.
In fact, there were a few likesingle-handed claps.

(32:53):
Oh my god.
You know, that's awkward, don'tyou?
Yeah.
And then, so it was a 40, I'dbeen contracted for 45 minutes,
and from the minute I stepped onstage, there was no response
whatsoever.
And this is the one time whenthe energy you bring and the
audience return was not thecase.
Uh, normally that works.

(33:14):
It did not work this time.
They sat and they smiled.
Um, in my nervousness, therewere two things I did wrong.
I started to speed up, and sothat 45 minutes was getting, I
was approaching the end of myshow, but it had been like it
was nowhere near.
So already I'm thinking, ohman, we're only 20 minutes in.

(33:34):
Uh oh boy.
And I'm getting towards theend.
Uh and then other thingshappened in that you start for
so the one rule of what I do isyou never ask for volunteers
because nobody's gonna volunteerto be a participant on a comedy
act.
And I started to ask people ifthey would join me on stage.
You can tell I was desperate,and um it they said no, it just

(33:57):
spiraled into this awkwardnessafter awkwardness, and I'm
thinking I really need to to getoff, and I really need to wrap
this up.
Um towards the end of the show,I'm just coming towards the
end, and the young family infront of me got up and left.
And of course, because itbecause it was quiet, everybody

(34:18):
watched as they left the room,and their eyes followed this
family as they left the venuemidway to a show.
Um and then I finished and Iwent off stage and uh I went
into the dressing room, I saydressing room, it was a
cupboard.
Um, I went into the cupboardand I just laughed because I

(34:39):
I've done it before, I've beenhere before, I failed before, I
just laughed.
Uh the funny thing about it isuh I then got into my car and I
put a a photo on my Facebook, uhmy personal Facebook, um and
just outlined some of the horrorstory that had just happened.
Uh and it was about athree-hour drive home, and uh I

(35:01):
had all I arrived home to allthese messages from friends
going, Are you okay?
Are you doing okay?
Like, out of concern for mymental health having having had
this disaster of a gig.
And I I laughed back and Isaid, Yeah, of course I am.
I wouldn't be doing this job ifI couldn't handle a bad gig.
At the end of the day, I'm nota surgeon.

(35:22):
Like if a comedy gig goes bad,it's not like a surgery that's
gone wrong, right?
So uh, you the I guess thereflection is could I have done
anything?
In I don't want to blame mytools, like you know, you always
take responsibility and own theproblem, but in many ways, I
think uh it was it, it was theatmosphere was wrong.

(35:46):
The atmosphere wasn't right.
It was a it was a big room withvery little people in.
Um I tend to find that olderaudiences don't vocally respond
as much as younger audiences.
Um they still enjoy it quite alot, but they don't often
vocally respond in the same waythat a younger audience might.

(36:06):
Um the two things I did dowrong though, as I said, never
ask for volunteers.
If you're gonna engage anaudience, if you're gonna have
someone participate on stage, uhin a nice way, force them up.
So what I normally do is I go,what's your name?
Uh he says, Tim, and I go, Tim,would you join me for the next
part of the show?
Ladies and gentlemen, give Tima round of applause, and Tim

(36:27):
will come up on stage.
Now I'm I'm respectful of myparticipants, I don't mock them
or anything like that.
So that might feel harsh, butwhat it does is it stops the
awkwardness of will you help me?
No.
Will you help me?
Yes, no, will you help me?
No.
Um and then the second errorwas that I, in my nervousness of
it not working, started tospeed up and speed up and speed

(36:51):
up.
The key when things aren'tgoing well, and it's completely
uh unnatural to do this, but thekey when things are not going
well or when you're strugglingis actually to slow down.

Tim Newman (37:02):
Slow down, right?

Tom Elliott (37:04):
Uh, because it when you slow down, you portray more
confidence.
And as you portray moreconfidence, the audience gets
more confident and and theystart to engage.
But of course, it's veryunnatural to do that because
you're just like, I want to getI want to get to the ends.
I want to get to the ends.

Tim Newman (37:19):
Get through it right, exactly.
So let me ask you a kind ofkind of an unrelated question, a
little bit a little bit offtopic.
But here in the States, youknow, there does seem to be a
trend in comedy of doingaudience work, you know.
Is that something that's goingon with with over there with you
guys?
Because to me, okay, it'sfunny, but again, you you need

(37:42):
to be careful with the thingsthat you're saying and not you
know putting them down.
I obviously if you're going toa comedy show, you know, you
know what you're getting.
But yeah, you you just don'tknow who you're calling on,
right?

Tom Elliott (37:53):
Sure.
And so um I love I loveaudience work.
Uh and to be honest, so itdepends on your persona of
comedy.
Um, if you are uh acontroversial, edgy, uh
aggressive comedian, you'regonna get the sort of audience

(38:13):
that will push you to be moreedgy and more controversial.
So you have to be a bit more onyour guard if you're that sort
of comic.
Um I'm not that sort of comic.
I try and be clean andnon-offensive the whole way
through.
It gives me more opportunities.
Corporate wouldn't very rarelywould a corporate want anyone

(38:35):
that's going to be too politicalor controversial or whatever.
Uh, and so I try and make surethat my whole show is
effectively family friendly,even if it's not a family
audience.
Um, so I I love crowd work, uh,but but it it stems from who
you are and the the sort ofperson you present to the
audience.

(38:55):
Just ask your question again,Tim, because that I had another
point to that, but I'd forgottenthe specific question you had
asked.

Tim Newman (39:02):
Oh, the the whole idea of you know, when you go to
a comedy show, you you uh as aas a spectator, you you know
what you're gonna get.
Yeah, but you you you justdon't know if um you you as a
comic if you could still offendsomebody.
I mean it could still go itcould still go still go really,

(39:23):
really bad, and that could thatcould be it could be detrimental
to to your career at at thisstage.
You know, if you if you say thewrong thing or you call out on
the wrong person and you know itit it could uh to to me uh to
me the the negatives faroutweigh the positives in some

(39:45):
of the some of the people thatare that are doing that uh that
that audience work.
So some of them, like I don'twant to call it call it call out
anybody's names, but they'rethey're fun.
It's it's not it there'snothing bad about it, right?
It's you know you're justyou're just having fun.
But some of it gets prettypretty really edgy.

Tom Elliott (40:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, there's a there's acomedian that I'm following on
Facebook um at the moment, and Iam fascinated in that he is
probably as edgy as you can be,I would say at points, verging
on full-on kind of even likeracism and and things, which I I

(40:24):
wouldn't, I'm not standing, I'mnot excusing or standing up for
at all.
But it's interesting, 99.9% ofcomedians would not get away
with that at all in the his thislevel of this particular guy.
But what's interesting is thatthis guy has a crowd of people
that should be offended by whathe's saying about them, but

(40:45):
they're not, they're loving it,they are absolutely thriving off
it.
Now, I don't know, I cannottell you how he's managed to get
into that space because uh theonly way that works when being
at that level is when you've gotan audience that uh uh almost
wants you to offend them.

(41:05):
Uh but that takes years ofpersonal brand work before you
can get away with that.
Uh so it's very tricky.
I don't I don't know how peoplebuild these edgy personas on
stage.
Uh, because it's a it's a veryparticularly in the world we
live in at the moment, which isbecoming quite sensitive to
those things.
Right.
And and that circle ofsensitivity is getting wider and

(41:27):
wider.
So uh it's very tricky.
But uh so I think it's safe.
I I find it is safer for my owncareer, but it's also it's it's
I'm not an edgy person anyway.
Uh I don't mean to say it's whouh um good.

Tim Newman (41:42):
No, it's it's it's who you are, right?

Tom Elliott (41:43):
It's who I am because I'm not really that sort
of person, so I'd never getaway with it anyway.
It would be out of characterfor me.

Tim Newman (41:49):
But so I again I don't want to get too far afield
on that.
It's just fascinating to mebecause I I I I like comedy,
obviously, but but I also learna lot from it too, right?
You know, the whether it'sstage presence, whether it's
whether whether it's the uhtiming.
Watching it, I learn a lot fromit.

(42:10):
And but let's let's get let'sget back to what we're really
talking about.
Talk a little bit about um thedifference between um
internalizing the message andmemorizing the message and how
important that is in thedelivery of the overall you know
uh keynote presentation set,whatever it is that we're gonna
be talking about.

Tom Elliott (42:29):
Yeah, so this one I think is is a game changer if
you are either just starting outin your public speaking
journey, or whether you'resomeone that would would benefit
from public speaking in termsof your own business or your a
message that you have orcharitable thing, if public
speaking would be a anopportunity for you, but you're

(42:53):
thinking, oh, I'm I'm toonervous about standing on stage
and speaking in front of people.
This is a bit of a gamechanger.
A lot of people, when they givea speech or when they're doing
anything up front, uh they willwrite a script and they will try
and learn that script word forword, as if it's some sort of
theatre play.
Now, there's nothing wrong withwriting a script at the

(43:14):
beginning.
The problem is, is that uh ifyou then become reliant on that
script, you're learning it wordfor word.
The problem is what happenswhen in the heat of the moment
on stage, because I think you'llknow this, Tim, your mind
operates in a different way whenyou're on stage.
Uh there's a it's like an it'slike when you've just had too

(43:36):
much coffee.
Like there's a there's anenergy in your head and you're
and it's spinning in a milliondifferent ways, and it's like a
a nerve, not a nervousnessnecessarily, but a kind of a uh
an energy that you can't shift.
And what that does sometimes isit can throw your thinking if
you're not in control of it,particularly if you're new uh
and you're and you're feelingnervous, it can throw you

(43:58):
completely.
So what happens then whenyou're working your way through
this script and then you stumbleacross a line or you suddenly
realize you've forgottensomething and it completely
throws you, and and then all youhaven't got notes.
So, oh um, and then you getinto a mess, and then you start
telling a story that wasn'tmeant to be till later on, and
then all of a sudden you're inan absolute mess.

(44:19):
And the worst case scenario isthat the whole thing doesn't
make any sense, and the audienceis confused, you've lost the
audience, you look nervous, andyou've just had a meltdown, you
then come off stage, you feelrubbish, the audience doesn't
know what to say.
I'm exaggerating a little bit,but you know, you know the
feeling.

Tim Newman (44:34):
Right.
Oh, I I do.
I mean, because it's uh it's itit happens.
I mean it happen I wouldn't ithappens all the time, right?
Yeah, to to to people e evenseasoned speakers, even seasoned
people that that have beendoing it for a long time, that
they get paid a lot of money todo it, uh understand that they
they go through presentationsand keynotes and these things

(44:56):
that just that don't land, theymessed up and and w whatever it
is.
It doesn't have to be a firsttimer or somebody that's new, it
happens along the wholespectrum.

Tom Elliott (45:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I always say don't by allmeans write a script to begin
with, because writing a scriptis helpful for clarifying
exactly what you want to say.
Right.
And particularly with sometopics, depending on what you're
speaking on, uh, language isreally important.
The language you use to talkabout something is is key, and

(45:26):
and in some cases, uh is is amatter of whether you offend or
don't offend.
Like if you're if politicians,for example, have to be mindful
of language because what theysay has an impact to some
extent, right?
Um, and people will hear thatdifferently and respond to that
differently and react.
So you have to it is worthwhilewriting a script purely for the

(45:46):
basis of thinking throughexactly what you're talking
about and what you want tocommunicate, but from that
point, you want to start to getrid of the script.
Uh and I talk aboutinternalize, don't memorize.
Because if you then memorizethat script and you you you run
the risk of forgetting it andget into a mess.
What you want to do is go froma script down to some phrases,

(46:11):
down to some bullet points, downto some words, down to nothing.
Uh, because we haven't scriptedthis conversation.
If we did, it would sound veryrobotic and weird.
Uh what we're doing is we'rehaving a conversation about
something that both of us know alot about and we've and and
experienced a lot of.

(46:32):
In the same way, if you'regiving a keynote, you you don't
want to sound robotic.
You want to you want to comeacross as if you have uh have
experience in whatever you'retalking about.
That you're you're telling alife story.
It's no different to standingin butt in front of a group of
friends.
Uh, I'm not sure if it was uhearlier on this podcast or
whether it was on the podcast Idid before this one, that I said

(46:54):
that that the the pinnacle ofwhere you want to get to really
on stage presence, it was thispodcast, um, is being in a space
where you are completely okayand completely natural talking
to a group of all uh a hundredpeople or a thousand people as
you are talking to your familylast night at dinner, and you're

(47:16):
just relaying this experiencethat you have or this knowledge
that you've learned in a waythat's very natural, it's not
scripted, but but neither is itnot not thought through.
You've you've you've got thestructure, you know where you're
going, you know the kind of uhelements of your talk, but it's
coming across very naturalrather than scripted.

(47:38):
Yeah, and that's because if youforget something, wait, you you
haven't even forgottenanything.
You're just talking about whatyou know well, and so it just
kind of comes from the heart,comes from inside of you, rather
than there's nothing to forget.

Tim Newman (47:52):
Right, right.
As as as again, as long asyou've done the work, done the
practice, done, done, done, doneall those things.
And and that's that's the otherpiece that that really does go
along with that.
And I and I like what you said,go from from this from the
script to sentences to bulletsto to phrases to nothing.
That doesn't just happen, ithappens because you put the work
in, you put the practice in andand and and those types of

(48:14):
things.
And you know that's exactlykind of how I do it, right?
So the first time I'm doingsomething like I told you I'm
working with a coach, I scriptit out word for word.
And I had my wife look at itbecause the stories are about me
or the family, so she knowsthem.
And she starts changing it,changing words because she says
it's not grammatically correct.
It's it's not supposed to begrammatically correct, it's it's

(48:36):
coming from me.
It's how it's I want it tosound like I'm talking, right?
And that frustrates her.
But then when I when I deliverit, the first couple times it's
really kind of unemotionalbecause I just want to kind of
get through the words.
And then once I start to getit, then start getting, you
know, putting the emotions andthe facial expressions and all
those other things to it.

(48:56):
But you have to to, like yousaid, get to the the heart.
What is it that you're tryingto say, and then work it out so
that it actually sounds like youwant it to sound to sound.

Tom Elliott (49:09):
And and I would say it's easier to adjust when it's
internalized than it is whenit's scripted, because uh it
doesn't it doesn't have to beexactly the same words in
exactly the same order uh whenit's not scripted.
And so therefore, if if youwant to change something, if you
want to add in a comment or ortweak the way you land, you can

(49:29):
do that much easier than oh, letme go back to the script and
and then I've because you'velearned it and it's robotic, you
run the risk of saying the oldversion rather than the new
version.
Whereas if it's internalizedand you particular because what
happens is when it works, whenthat story when the punchline of
that story lands really well,you get the adrenaline kick and

(49:49):
you go, Oh, that's how I'm gonnaend it next time.
And it's much more natural toend it that way next time
because you felt it rather thanbecause you've reworked a bit of
script that you'd written.

Tim Newman (50:01):
Exactly, exactly.
You know, and again that that'sone of the other reasons why I
use stories about me, because Ialready know the story.
Yeah.
I don't right.
It's it's it's the terminologythat that we use or that that I
want to use to make it land.
But I already know that becauseI already know it was there.
I was one that it was it wasme.
So you don't you know, but butagain, that that's what what I

(50:22):
found with with teaching andcoaching people, it especially
initially they're they're soafraid to use personal stories.

Tom Elliott (50:30):
Yeah.
No, you know, if you're anatural storyteller, by all
means use them.
Uh you because people peopleconnect through stories, people
uh you can build.
I love speakers that can tellstories that one minute have you
crying with laughter and thenext minute they have you
sobbing in tears because they'vemoved you, like they've taken

(50:52):
you on that whole emotional arc.
Uh and stories have the powerof doing that.
So particularly if you're um ifyou're a charity or yeah, if
you're an impact uh speaker, asin your maybe you're the CEO of
a charity or whatever, and youwant to you want to bring people
to donations uh or support orvolunteer or whatever it might

(51:13):
be, the best thing you can do istell stories of the impact
you're having, tell stories ofcelebration of the great things
that have happened, but alsothen lead them to tell stories
of uh of the the challenges thatthe people that you're working
with affects, because it's thatthat will then really connect
with people that go, ah, I'vegot a I've gotta give.
I want to see more liveschanged in that way.

(51:34):
I want to see Exactly whereaswithout stories of just facts,
you don't connect on the samelevel.

Tim Newman (51:41):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Tom what's one piece of advicethat that you would give to
somebody who who needs to buildmore confidence in their in
their speaking?
Um, because that that's that'sthe real key because you you're
never gonna get better if youdon't have confidence.

Tom Elliott (51:59):
Yeah.
I would say the more you do it,the better you get.
The more you do it, the morecomfortable you get with
failure.
Uh and so uh I I know I knowpeople that have started their
keynote speaking career byliterally organizing their own
events.
Uh and it's a if if you've gotif you can't, if you're not sure

(52:20):
about putting yourself outthere to speak professionally at
other events yet, then organizeyour own.
Get start a networkinggathering and you invite
yourself to be the main speaker.
Uh, it's a great way ofbuilding your network and and
starting, but it's a great wayof learning your craft of
speaking as well.
Um, by all means, practice itat home.
Get get one talk, one keynote,uh, really well prepared,

(52:44):
internalized, think through it,think about how it can be
creative, think about keep itshort.
It doesn't have to be a full45, 60-minute keynote.
It can be a 10-minute, it canbe a five-minute.
Uh, give it a go.
And what I would suggest is dothe same, the same keynote to 10
different audiences uh andfigure out what works and what

(53:05):
doesn't, and then slowly beginto build it.
Cut out the stuff that didn'twork, add some stuff, new stuff
to try.

Tim Newman (53:14):
That that that's awesome advice.
I appreciate it.
Where can people find you andconnect with you and work with
you?

Tom Elliott (53:20):
Sure.
So if they go to hellotom.co.uk uh forward slash
showman, uh, you can download afree resource there.
It's uh it's basically ablueprint for uh creating a
creative keynote that willengage and help you think about
your persona, it will help youthink about internalizing it,
help you think about how you uhbuild some creativity in there,

(53:42):
how you retain the audience.
Starts to get you thinkingabout all these different ideas
and concepts to help you delivera really good keynote.
And then, of course, if you'rea little bit more established
but you want some coaching in inthe area, uh by all means get
in touch.
I'd love to have thatconversation with you.

Tim Newman (54:02):
Well, that's that's awesome.
I'll put those I'll put thoseuh links in in the show notes.
But but Tom, th thank you somuch for spending some time with
us today.
Can't tell you how much Iappreciate it.
It's a lot of fun.
I really did enjoy talking withyou.

Tom Elliott (54:14):
Uh and you, Tim.
Thank you so much.

Tim Newman (54:17):
All right, buddy.
Take care, we'll talk to yousoon.
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