December 22, 2025 • 48 mins
What does it really take to lead and communicate with Generation Z in today’s workplace? On this episode of Speaking with Confidence, I sit down with Dr. Tim Elmore, founder of Growing Leaders, bestselling author, and expert in multi-generational leadership. Dr. Elmore has spent decades developing emerging leaders—including an impressive 20 years by the side of John C. Maxwell—and he’s written extensively on what makes great leadership tick, especially in our rapidly evolving culture. If you’ve ever struggled to connect with Gen Z professionals or wondered why their anxiety levels seem so high, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.
I’ve long believed that Gen Z is smarter and more entrepreneurial than previous generations, and finally, Dr. Elmore’s new book, The Future Begins with Z, delivers the data to back it up. In our conversation, we explore the shifts in social and technological dynamics that have shaped Gen Z, especially how anxiety (now at levels comparable to psychiatric patients in the 1950s) has become a natural outgrowth of the overwhelming flood of information they face daily. We dig into the critical distinction between post-traumatic stress and post-traumatic growth—how leaders and educators can help foster resilience instead of victimhood.
Here’s what we cover in the episode:
- The roots of Gen Z’s high anxiety and how social media amplifies it
- Coaching young professionals through stress and building grit with empathy and compassion
- Key differences between post-traumatic growth and stress, and how to foster resilience
- How educators and employers can prepare Gen Z for professional success—through realistic expectations and reframing self-talk
- The “Stockdale Paradox” and the difference between hope and optimism in leadership
- The misconception that Gen Z doesn’t want to work, and data from real-world focus groups that prove otherwise
- The necessity of building trust and relationships before offering feedback or correction (“Connect before you correct”), and the ALEG feedback process
- Teaching and modeling soft skills that Gen Z may be missing due to pandemic-era screen life
- Why authentic, frequent, and brief communication trumps lengthy, infrequent updates—and why daily check-ins matter
- How leaders can admit mistakes openly to build trust and model real communication
- The velvet-covered brick as a metaphor for leadership: balancing empathy with accountability
- Recognizing and responding appropriately to practical, social, and emotional conversations—especially when leading younger team members
We wrap up with actionable steps for leading Gen Z better, starting right now—not tomorrow. If you want practical strategies, stories, and a hopeful look at how Gen Z can make us stronger leaders when we rise to the occasion, you’ll find gold in this episode. I’m grateful to Dr. Tim Elmore for joining the conversation and sharing his wisdom. For everyone ready to adapt, lead, and have more confident conversations with the next generation, this episode is for you.
Connect with Tim:
Website: https://growingleaders.com
Website: https://www.timelmore.com
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
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Episode Transcript
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Tim Newman (00:10):
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead to real
results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turning
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on a
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is Dr.
(00:30):
Tim Elmore.
Tim is the founder of GrowingLeaders, an Atlanta-based
nonprofit organization createdto developing emerging leaders.
His work grew out of 20 years ofserving alongside Dr.
John C.
Maxwell.
Elmore has appeared in the WallStreet Journal, The Washington
Post, USA Today, PsychologyToday.
He's also been featured on CNN'sHeadline News, Fox Business,
(00:55):
Newsmax TV, and Fox and Friendsto talk about leading multiple
generations in the marketplace.
He's written over 35 books,including Habitudes, Images of
Form Leadership, Habits, andAttitudes, Eight Paradoxes of
Great Leadership, and a New Kindof Diversity, making different
generations on your team acompetitive advantage.
(01:15):
His latest book, The FutureBegins with Z, Nine Strategies
to Lead Generation Z as theyupset the marketplace, was
released in the fall of 2025.
Tim, welcome to speaking withconfidence.
I'm so happy to have you today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Thank you, Tim.
We're going to have a greatconversation, I can tell.
Tim Newman (01:31):
And we are not just because our name is Tim, and not
just because we dress the light,but we've got a lot of
information to cover.
And uh I got to tell you whatwhen I heard you talk about your
new book, you know, The FutureBegins with Z, on a podcast with
John Maxwell and Mark Cole.
I told my wife wife that therewas finally some data on some of
(01:53):
the things that I've been sayingfor years, such as that the Gen
Z is smarter than previousgenerations.
Gen Z is more entrepreneurialthan other generations, but
they're the worst communicators.
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (02:08):
So I again really looking forward to talking to
you about about Gen Z and why weneed to make some fundamental
changes in how we lead andcommunicate with them.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
Yeah, good.
I'm ready.
Let's do it.
Tim Newman (02:20):
All right.
So the first thing that thatreally, really jumped out at me
is the whole idea of anxietythat our young professionals are
facing.
And let me just make sure I getthe stat right, that the anxiety
levels today are the same as apsychiatric patient.
(02:43):
A psychiatric patient in 1950s.
Yes.
How did we get here, Tim?
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
How did that happen?
It was a slow evolution thathappened even before the
smartphone, but the smartphoneabsolutely accelerated the rise
of anxiety, panic attacks,feeling overwhelmed.
But Tim, if you think about it,uh a young person or an old
person for that matter, that'son social media, when you add
the messaging from social mediato every other source of
(03:10):
communication coming at them,it's 10,000 messages every day.
I don't think we're hardwired totake in 10,000 messages in every
day.
So um, so if you'recommunicating, you're up against
9,999 other messages.
Good luck with that.
But I also think it puts a GenZ, who's a young adult now, in
an overwhelming spot.
(03:32):
That's the number one word thatcollege students today use to
describe their life.
I'm overwhelmed.
So uh the anxiety is a naturaloutgrowth of the new world we're
living in.
And I think we're gonna have tofind not just coping mechanisms,
but coping skills in order tothrive in this new day.
Tim Newman (03:49):
Yeah, you know, throughout my career, I there
was I made two major pivots inmy career uh uh around some of
the things that were happeningsocially.
One was in the late 2000s aroundsocial media.
You know, I had kids at thepoint at that point, I asked my
daughter who was uh she was inmiddle school, asked her about
Twitter, and she said, Dad, youdon't want anything to do with
(04:10):
Twitter.
And I said, Okay, that means Ibetter figure out what Twitter
is.
Yeah, yeah.
And the second and the secondwas around 2017, 2018, when I
noticed, number one, I wasn'tconnecting with students like I
used to, and the level ofanxiety, how they would get so
upset over j just somethingsmall that that I would think
would be trivial, and I didn'tknow how to handle it.
(04:31):
I didn't I didn't know what whatto do.
Um so what can we do as as theolder generations to to number
one adjust, but also coach themto have grit.
You talk about grit in your umin your book.
What can we do?
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Two things I always like to say about anxiety.
When I look at the data, Ithink, depending on the young
person that might be in front ofyou, they're either needed going
to need to be coached up by ussaying, hey, listen, we're all a
little anxious right now.
It's it's it's a normal part oflife.
You're not weird, you're notabnormal, we're all a little
stressed, and stop thinking thatyou have some disorder.
(05:12):
Let's just make it through thestress.
Sometimes I think we need to saythat.
The other angle or the otherside of the same coin, Tim, is
this.
I think we who are, let's say,over 40 years old, need to make
sure we start with empathy inorder to get to that grit we
want to develop in them.
Um, I think it's easy forsomeone like me who's in the
(05:33):
45th year of his career, to say,come on, just grow up, grow a
little grit, you know, suck itup, buttercup, you know, those
kinds of things.
And and while I'm tempted to dothat, that's never gotten me any
good outcome.
No doubt.
But I can lean in and say,listen, I know it's weird right
now.
I know it's hard right now, butwe can do it together.
(05:54):
So in the book, I talk aboutPTSD, which we've all heard,
that term we're all familiarwith, even if you're a layman
when it comes to psychology,post-traumatic stress disorder.
82% of Gen Z members claim tohave gone through a trauma.
And for many of them, it was thepandemic, and that was real for
sure.
(06:14):
But we rarely talk about PTG,post-traumatic growth.
Growth, yeah.
Which actually 80% of the peoplethat go through trauma end up
with PTG and not end up withPTSD.
So they end up in a growth area.
But Tim, here's what you and Iwill both love.
It usually happens when they gothrough the trauma, but someone
(06:35):
comes alongside of them and isable to communicate.
Look at how you've gotten betterand stronger and healthier and
more joyful and grateful as aresult of that hardship.
Now, I probably sound likeGrandpa right now, but it's
basically us saying, listen,good things can happen through
hard times.
It's a weight room.
I go into the weight room.
Do I like the lifting ofweights?
(06:56):
No, I don't.
But boy, I like the aftermathwhen I look a little stronger uh
afterwards.
So I'll stop there.
But PTG is what we've got to gofor when it comes to the empathy
and the and the stress that weface right now.
Tim Newman (07:07):
Well, I I'd like for you to talk a little bit more
about PTG because uh, you know,again, that that's something
that uh number one, I didn'tknow there was a term for it,
but you can see it.
When when you work with peopleand and you and you and you see
where they are and you get themgoing and get them moving
forward, and then watch themlook back and say, look, you
know, thank you for for helpingme, and this is where I grew,
and thank you for doing orsaying this.
(07:29):
Um and being intentional abouthelping them grow.
Can you can you talk a littlebit about that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
Absolutely.
So it's a mindset shift, isn'tit?
It's a way of helping another orourselves for that meant.
We may need to look in themirror and do this.
But we look at them and we say,I acknowledge your hardship.
So I am empathizing with you.
I'm acknowledging it's hard.
However, as I we go forward, Iknow the worst thing I can leave
(07:55):
you with is a victim mindset.
Yes, you're a victim.
We're probably all victims.
We could all rehearse for 30minutes over the things that
have gone wrong.
But what if I allow for thatyoung person, a Gen Z member,
for instance, to say, I get it,but I cannot leave you where you
are.
So I actually uh differentiatein the book between empathy and
(08:17):
compassion.
It's just semantics, but let metell you what helps me.
If I'm empathetic to a Gen Zmember, I say, Oh, I feel your
hurt.
Okay, I hurt with you.
That's empathy.
I've stepped into your shoes.
That's empathy.
When I'm compassionate, I feelthat empathy, but I but I want
to equip them to make it throughthat tough time.
(08:39):
So it's the difference.
Here's a metaphor.
It's the difference between uhyou being in the hospital and
you get a visit from a friendand you get a visit from a
nurse.
A friend can sit down next toyour bed and say, gee, I'm so
sorry this has happened to you.
Can I get you a cup of water?
A nurse says, I'm really sorryabout this, but let's do, let me
treat you right now.
Let me get you through thishardship, this sickness, or this
(09:02):
disease.
That's what we need to be nursesor doctors, not just friends
when it comes to uh the stresslevels we see.
Tim Newman (09:09):
Yeah, and I I kind of relate that to I had my knee
replaced a couple years ago.
Um my wife was there, you know,and you know, make me feel good.
And the physical therapist said,okay, get up, let's go, let's
let's go for a walk.
Doc, I'd rather just stay here.
It's good.
But you gotta get, you have to,that's that's part of it, you
have to get up and move.
And and you said somethingyou've been through some
(09:31):
traumas, seven car accidents,and I've never spoken to
somebody who's survived a planecrash.
And so we you know we like yousaid, we all have trauma, we all
have have those things, andfinding ways to to to move
forward.
And I you know, I I think aboutit from a from an educational
perspective.
And I'm a lot like you in in thewhole idea of pracademics.
(09:52):
You know, I my background mybackground was in uh sport
management, so I worked withsport marketing.
And if if if we didn't practicepracademics, our students would
never get jobs in that industry.
Um but from an educationalperspective, what what can we be
doing we be doing as educatorswith with our students so that
(10:14):
they're ready or they're they'remore ready tomorrow to go out in
the world of work um than theyare now?
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Yeah.
I'll tell you what's goingthrough my mind right now, Tim,
and this may or may not be agreat answer, but here's what
streaked through my mind.
Um I think we need to help themmanage their expectations.
So without stereotyping, there'sa lot of Gen Zers that either
through social media or throughmama who told them they're
awesome for putting the spoon inthe dishwasher.
(10:44):
Yeah, they've got um maybe anunrealistic expectation.
And I tell you where I learnedthis.
I talk to employers that go, ohmy gosh, I just interviewed a
job candidate who's from Gen Zand they expected a six-digit
salary, and I want to have, youknow, I want to be a VP by the
time I'm 26, and they're going,oh my gosh.
So in the in the book, I talkabout the fact that conflict
(11:06):
expands based on the distancebetween expectations and
reality.
If we don't right-size thosemaybe unrealistic, idealistic
expectations, we've done them adisservice.
So it's a mindset shift.
Um, the second thing that goesthrough my mind, though, is I
think we need to um offer them adifferent narrative.
(11:29):
For instance, if they feel likethey are a victim of
circumstances, I can't find ajob, or my boyfriend book broke
up with me, or I've been throughthis trauma and now I can't get
out of it.
Um I think we need to help themchange what they how they talk
to themselves.
Oh, we see.
So um here's here's a couple ofexamples.
(11:50):
I I noticed this year, Tim, thatum probably because I'm aging,
I'm now in my 60s, I I'mnoticing that uh uh my brain is
focusing on problems that needto be solved more than ever.
And I did a little researchbehind this, and here's what I
discovered.
(12:10):
As we age, our brain knows we'regonna have to conserve energy as
we get older.
We're not as energetic as wewere when we were in our 20s.
So, in that conserving ofenergy, we tend to not focus on
what's right.
That doesn't need our attention.
It's going well.
We need to focus on what'swrong.
So this makes sense.
Tim Newman (12:27):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
We start, we tend to ruminate on these things that
are going wrong.
Well, next thing I know, I'm agrumpy old man.
I'm over speaking, but you know,I'm I get you right.
Get off my lawn, you know, thosekinds of things.
unknown (12:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
So, so what I'm doing now, when I get up in the
morning, uh, one of the firstthings I do, I put my slippers
on, I go get a drink of water,but I say to myself, good things
keep happening to me.
Now it's true, but I tend tolook at the things that I need
to fix that day.
So on my iPhone, I have in thenotes section a list of things
(13:03):
I've written down that are goodthings that just keep happening
to me.
Wow.
The phone keeps ringing withopportunities.
I have an incredible family, andmy kids have found spouses that
we love.
Uh, you know, those kinds ofthings.
Yes, right, right.
It's more than a gratitudething, though, Tim.
It's more I'm acknowledgingthat, yeah, there's some
problems that need to be solved.
I'm not in denial, but goodthings keep happening.
(13:26):
It puts a skip in my step.
So I'm wondering, could we takethat person in front of us,
young or old for that matter,and remind them you got some
momentum now and you don't evenknow it, or maybe you're not
realizing it.
So I'll stop there.
Tim Newman (13:40):
But it's but again, that that's that's so so
powerful.
You know, if if if we can makethem have that make we can't
make them do anything, but butif we can get them to understand
that mind shift and practice it,it's it's small steps, small
steps, small steps.
And yeah, you know, I'm so gladyou you you mentioned your your
family and your kids.
I've got grandkids now, and andwell, yeah.
I live in I live in SouthCarolina, so it's it's it's cold
(14:02):
today, but we're going up forfor for Christmas here, and it's
gonna be cold.
And I I told my wife, I said,look, let's just go up.
We're gonna be we're gonna bewith our kids, we're gonna be
with our grandkids.
Let's not we're not gonnacomplain that it's cold.
We're good, we're gonna bearound our the our most
important treasures.
SPEAKER_00 (14:19):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (14:19):
Let's just have fun and enjoy it and take some of
those other things.
Now, again, like you said, notthat they're not there, not that
we're ignoring them, but we'regonna focus on the on the on
those good pieces.
And and if we can do that andthe younger generations can see
us doing that, maybe that's alsosomething that's gonna trigger
them to do the same.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
I think so.
You know, I'm thinking about theStockdale paradox.
Um, Admiral James Stockdale wasa Vietnam um officer who was the
highest ranking officer to becaught by the by the North
Vietnamese and put in a POWcamp.
Long story short, he's in thatcamp, I think, for seven years.
So this is not a cakewalk, andit went on a long time.
(15:01):
He made it out.
And so he was interviewed um andby Jim Collins from Stanford.
And Jim Collins said, Um, well,what enabled you to, you know,
to make it out?
And he said, Well, um, I washopeful.
I stayed hopeful.
And then he defined it as, Ialways believed that one day I
(15:25):
would prevail and make it out ofthis and I would do something
good with this.
Jim Collins said in response,Wow, that's great.
Who didn't make it out?
And you know what he said?
He said, it was the optimist.
And and Collins said, wait, Ithought you just said you were
optimistic.
He said, No, I had hope.
There's a difference betweenhope and hope and oh okay, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
(15:45):
And here's what he explained.
He said, the optimists were theprisoners with me there that
said, Well, by Easter, we'll allbe out.
And then Easter came and left,and they were still there.
Well, by Christmas, we'll all befree.
And then Christmas came andleft.
They were talking about thingsthat are out of their control.
Tim Newman (16:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
Hope was I am going to make it through this thing,
and one day I believe I willbenefit from this and make it
out and so forth.
So I think we need to becareful, especially as we coach
others and we communicate toothers, that we don't make
promises that we're not incontrol of, right.
Or, you know, whatever.
We need to make sure that we'redifferentiating between I am
(16:26):
hopeful, and I am hopeful rightnow.
I'm hopeful in Gen for Gen Z andthe difference they're going to
make if we lead them well.
But but I'm also staying awayfrom those unrealistic
expectations and yeah, thatoptimism that's just
superficial.
Tim Newman (16:42):
Yeah.
Was there a moment when you didyour were doing research for
this that you that you realizedthat you were underestimating
Gen Z?
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Yeah.
Um the very opening story, Ireveal that.
I went into this research, likemost others, let's just say
people our age or past midlife,and I was thinking, ah, kids,
they need to grow some grit.
They need to be resilient, theyneed to not be lazy, they need
to work hard.
That sounds like a grandpa.
(17:14):
But um, and by the way, I gotthat confirmed.
Every employer I talked to,except maybe one or two, three
out of four employers told methat Generation Z is the
toughest generation to manage.
Three out of four.
Thirty percent of them said Ifired them within the first
month of their employment.
(17:36):
And another 30%, Tim, said Iavoid hiring Gen Z altogether.
Well, that's not a path forward.
That's just not a good path.
Tim Newman (17:44):
It's not.
Yeah, it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
So I began to meet with these Gen Zers.
I surveyed over 2,000, to beexact, 2014 members of Gen Z.
Then I hosted focus groups, 21focus groups, from California to
Georgia.
And I began to meet some youngpeople where my mindset changed.
So let me tell you one quickstory.
(18:06):
Colin Webb, I've known him sincehe was in high school.
Colin graduated, and he was asmart kid.
So he got an invitation to go upto MIT for his undergraduate
work.
Went to MIT, did really well.
And you can imagine when hegraduated, he got several job
offers.
So Colin decided to move fromBoston to Detroit, Michigan, and
(18:29):
work for one of the big three,General Motors, one of the big
three automakers.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:35):
Now they put him in the smart car division, so he's
very excited as he starts.
But as he looks around, thisyoung 22-year-old young man, he
looks around, he sees, if I canbe blunt, uh a very traditional
setting.
You know, they've been around100 years or so, and they did
some old school things.
And so he began to write down alist of things that they could
(18:57):
do better.
They could do professionaldevelopment better, they could
do this system over here better.
He took the list to hissupervisor, and he pretty much
got shut down.
His supervisor basically said,Colin, we didn't hire you to
come up with ideas.
Keep your nose to thegrindstone, keep your head down,
get your work done.
(19:18):
So Colin said, Yes, sir, wentback to his desk, but he wasn't
done.
In the spirit of a true Gen Zer,Colin writes, the CEO of General
Motors, Mary Barra.
And in his email, he says, Mary,I have some great ideas that we
could use here.
I think, I think you'll likethem.
She reads the email and repliesto him and says, Colin, these
(19:42):
are really good ideas.
Let me take them to my executiveteam.
And when she did, they agreedthat these were great ideas.
But as you've heard me saybefore, when those ideas made
its way down the organizationalchart and got to the middle
manager and his supervisor, onceagain they died on the vine.
Yeah.
Colin was told you need to bearound here eight years before
(20:03):
you get to lead anything.
So you might as well have toldColin to leave right now.
Right.
Within a year he left.
Here's what makes me optimistic.
He left and has since, he'sstill in his 20s, he has since
started three companies.
He's an entrepreneur, a serialentrepreneur.
He just sold company number two,made a boatload of money.
(20:26):
He's working on a third now.
It's it's it's AI related andit's incredible, and it's
something I could never do.
But I'm thinking to myself, weneed those callings at our
workplaces.
Yes.
But we lose them when we prettymuch shut them down and say,
here's the way we do them.
We don't do things that wayaround here.
(20:46):
So uh anyway, I'm veryoptimistic.
The book isn't as a very hopefulbook, but I think we're gonna
need to change the way we leadthem if we're gonna succeed.
Tim Newman (20:55):
Absolutely.
And you know, I look at thingsmaybe I look at things
differently than than most, butto to me it comes back to
building relationships andbuilding trust before before you
do anything else.
And I think if if you buildrelationships and you build
trust, everything that comesafter that, whether it's it's
tough times, whether it'sfeedback, whether it's um you
(21:15):
make a mistake or what whateverit is, those things can be
handled because there's thatrelationship.
There's there's that trust thatyou know about it can be about
any number of different things.
And that's really what I thinkthe Gen Z needs is to feel a
part of things and to be trustedto be able to do things.
(21:37):
And if they make a mistake, it'snot that it's gonna be
overlooked or washed away, butthere will be some
accountability, but it's not theend of the world.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
Yeah, no doubt.
You hit the nail on the head.
I cannot underscore enough forlisteners who care about young
people.
Their relationship iseverything.
They're looking to be trusted,and I know that's hard, bosses
out there, because you go, Well,I don't even know if I can trust
them yet, you know.
But um, they're looking for thatconnection.
I always tell people you got toconnect before you correct.
(22:08):
Uh that's just a fact.
Today, especially.
Uh, and I share an acronym uhwhen I talk about giving
feedback to Gen Z, um, it's it'sa leg, A-L-E-G, a leg.
And it reminds me every time Ihave to have a hard conversation
with somebody, I need topractice A-L-E-G.
The letter A reminds me, I gotto start with asking, not
(22:30):
telling.
I want to tell them what they'vedone wrong, but I need to start
with, hey, tell me your thoughtprocess behind that decision you
just made.
What were you thinking there?
You know?
Um, when I ask someone how theycame to this conclusion, they
feel valued.
I'm actually asking this youngperson.
The letter A reminds me I've gotto listen.
(22:50):
And that's an art form that ishard for leaders.
Um, the more you know, theharder it is to listen.
And you feel like you know alot.
So uh but when I listen, theyfeel heard.
And this is the number one thingthey're looking for.
So I want to have a voice, Iwant to be heard.
The letter E in a leg,empathize.
So that's what you were justtalking about the connection,
the relationship.
(23:11):
I need to demonstrate orcommunicate.
Uh I get it now, or I had noidea, but thanks for telling me.
Or I bet that made you feelhorrible when that happened.
But when we do this, they feelunderstood.
Right.
So get it.
They feel valued, they feelheard, they feel understood.
When we've done this, Tim, nowwe've earned the right to
(23:32):
practice letter G, which is toguide them.
Right.
That's what I wanted to do inthe first place.
unknown (23:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
But I've earned it now over the last 15 minutes or
so through the bridge I built,not the badge I wear.
And that's that badge, thatbridge is the connection that
you just talked about.
I cannot underestimate orunderscore enough how important
that is.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (23:54):
You know the the the trust, the listening, and you
and in your book, you also talkabout something that um is is
it's it's easy to remember, butyou know, when I when I tell
people about this, they theylook at me like I'm nuts.
I said, when you talk, you needto talk with confidence, like
you're right.
Yeah.
But when it's time to listen,you need to listen like you're
(24:14):
wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (24:16):
I actually Especially with Gen Z.
That's it's it's so important.
SPEAKER_00 (24:20):
This is key.
You're right.
It's a practice I now havepracticed for four years now.
I did a book called The EightParadoxes of Great Leadership,
and that's one of them.
To be confident and humble.
And that means speak withconfidence, but listen with.
I could be wrong about this.
And that 22-year-old may just beright.
Uh I think the best idea shouldwin, even if it's from an intern
(24:41):
and it's not Bob who's 54 yearsold or whatever.
So yeah, I'm with you all theway.
Tim Newman (24:48):
You know, it it and talk about feedback, you know,
in in the late in your last uhepisode of your feedback,
Generations at Work, you had aphenomenal guest on one that
talked about um feedback and andhow to give it because and it's
so important.
And you talked about you knowthe the five most important
people in your life and how theygave you feedback, and the the
(25:10):
basis of that feedback wasbecause they care about you.
Yes.
Yes.
No matter what it was, they beand you grew because they cared
about you.
And that's I think the thebottom line here.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
You're you're exactly right.
And if we do it out of belief,not relief, that's the key.
So I know that's a cliche, butthink think with me.
I tend to offer hard feedback asa surgeon or a vampire.
I know that's crazy, but staywith us.
If I'm a vampire, by the way, amI right about this?
Yeah, you're you're absolutelyright.
(25:40):
Both draw blood.
They both draw blood, but verydifferent.
The vampire sneaks up on you ina darkened room, bites you, the
blood comes out, and you die.
You you fall to the ground.
Surgeon, well-lit room.
Everybody's prepared for what'sabout to happen.
We've talked about it ahead oftime.
And the surgeon just removesthat one tumor.
(26:03):
He doesn't slice up your wholebody.
Right.
I think we offer that surgerythat other people need to hear,
that feedback that may be hard.
Like a surgeon, I do it out ofbelief in this person.
I believe in you, and that's whyI want to offer this hard
because I think you're betterthan this.
Yes.
Or relief.
I want to just relieve myselfand vent.
(26:24):
I want to get rid of thisfrustration I have with this
young whipper snapper orwhatever.
So think belief, not relief,when you next time you have to
have a hard conversation.
Tim Newman (26:34):
And and this kind of brings up something else.
You know, you you talked alittle bit about, you know,
employers just kind of throwingtheir hands up and not even
hiring Gen Z.
Yeah.
Or, you know, Gen Z haven't evenhad a conversation with somebody
over 50 at their place of work.
To me, that that just that'sjust a failure all the way
around.
Yeah.
And we talk about responsibilityfrom the employer side.
(26:56):
And and and I've got friends whowould throw their hands out,
they can't, they uh kids won'tread, they won't write, they
won't do this.
And and I talked to them, sowhat are you doing to to get
them to do that?
What are you get doing to enticethem or showing them?
But from the Gen Z perspective,they have some responsibility
here as well.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Yeah, no doubt about it.
And I think the answer is almostalways in the middle when it
comes to teams and work and soforth.
Um I I will always challenge ayoung person to better
themselves.
Uh, in other words, I believethey're better than they just
showed me in that last poorperformance.
So I'm gonna challenge you, I'mgonna call you up to that.
(27:36):
But I think I need to lean intothem as well.
So I find the answer in themiddle.
And and uh when we do, we'recommunicating.
I want to lean into you becauseI care about you, but I'm asking
you to grow up.
So one of the metaphors that weuse, I use when I talk about
this is the velvet-coveredbrick.
(27:57):
Think about that.
Yeah.
Velvet brick is my best, uh mybest image for what leadership
is.
Velvet on the outside, whichsays, I support you, I I'm
behind you, I have your back, Ibelieve in you.
Right.
The brick part is because Ibelieve in you, I'm not gonna
let you get by with poorperformance here.
(28:18):
Right.
You're better than you justshowed me, Josh or Jessica, and
I'm gonna call it out of you.
So that's what they need,supportive and demanding,
supportive and demanding.
And uh I I feel like when we dothat, they're gonna become their
best sells uh in the on theteam.
Tim Newman (28:33):
Yeah, that and I I look at it like something very
similar, but from the sportsperspective, a coach, he's not
gonna let you get away from getaway from get away with that.
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (28:43):
That's right.
Tim Newman (28:44):
They're gonna be all over you, and you and you if
you're not gonna do it and getit right, after I mean we give
you a couple opportunities, butthen we're gonna move on to
somebody else.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
That's right.
Absolutely.
That's exactly and that's a realworld picture.
Coaches are probably a littlemore blunt than a professor
sometimes because they got towin or they're out.
Tim Newman (29:02):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
So um absolutely right.
And I I I love student athleteswho've gone through the the
rigor and the discipline of agood coach because they believe
they can do it and they have togive their best, or they don't
play on Saturday, Saturday'sgame or Friday's match, or
whatever.
Tim Newman (29:21):
Whatever it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
Tim Newman (29:24):
So it in terms of communication, uh in the book
you talk about the Gen Z one'scommunication that's authentic,
brief, and frequent.
Yeah.
Which of those three do leadersget wrong the most?
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Uh wow.
Probably depends on the leader.
I feel like I had to learn to beauthentic as a boomer.
Uh the reason I say that is notbecause boomers aren't
authentic.
I just feel like I entered mycareer in a time you bet your
you put your best foot forward,never let them see you sweat,
leave your personal problems atthe door, get your work done,
(29:58):
you know, blah, blah, blah.
Today it's bring your whole selfto work.
So a Gen Zer comes in and theymay bring their baggage, maybe,
or their emotional volatility.
So I had to learn to beauthentic with them.
And Tim, I don't think thatmeans we hang out our dirty
laundry every day.
No, right, right.
But it means I might say, yeah,this is a scary situation, isn't
(30:21):
it?
We're going through a pandemicright now.
I've never been through one.
Let's let's do this together.
You know, that sort of thing.
Right.
So authenticity may be numberone.
It's just my guess.
But I'm telling you, I have ahard time being brief sometimes.
Have you can you tell already?
Tim Newman (30:37):
Yeah, but it for me it's frequent.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (30:44):
They want it, they want it now, and they want it
now.
Okay, but I just I literally, Iliterally just talked to you 10
minutes ago.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
Yeah, right.
Tim, I was shocked when I readthe data on this.
The average Gen Zer at work in ajob wants daily check-ins from
their boss.
When I say that to bosses, theygo, Are you kidding me?
I'm doing my own work.
I I can't check on junior and amI okay over here?
But um, the daily check-in makessense because one, they may have
(31:13):
all through school been playingvideo games where they get
regular check-ins, you knowexactly what level you're on in
Grand Theft Auto or whatever,Minecraft.
Uh, but also I think that um ifthey hear no news from their
boss, they can assume the veryworst.
Right.
Um, I worked for John Maxwellright out of college.
(31:35):
I assume that if John didn'ttalk to me, I knew this is all
good.
We're all good.
Let's keep that that in fact.
I didn't want to have a meetingwith him, you know, if it was at
the end of the day.
So I I feel like we just need toadapt as leaders and realize
this new crop of young peopleneed to be led differently.
Um, I call them the sandpaper onmy leadership that I did not
(31:57):
know I needed.
And they are gonna sandpaper me.
I they're not gonna put up, if Ican be blunt, they're not gonna
put up with BS that I might havebeen prone to share.
They're gonna demand that we'rereal and that we're honest and
that we're disclosing where weare.
Um, but when we do that, I thinkthey're gonna go to the mat for
us and and and oh they will.
Tim Newman (32:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You talk about the BS.
Uh that they they've got areally good BS detector.
I mean, they're they're reallygood about it.
So what what communicationhabits instantly break that
trust with them?
SPEAKER_00 (32:32):
Wow.
Well, inauthenticity, meaningI'm fake.
They can smell a fake a mileaway.
That's the BS factor.
So they can smell fake and thatyou're just, you know, not
really being honest with meabout what's what's happening.
Um by the way, let me take areal quick sidebar since this is
really on communication.
(32:53):
I have found, and I did put thisin the book, I have found that
there's a sequence I need tofollow if we're going through a
difficult season, and I've gotGen Sears in front of me.
Number one, by the way, there'sthree three big ideas here,
okay?
Number one, I need to um do hardbefore easy.
(33:14):
Meaning if they know things arenot going well, my my humanity
says, Oh, let me share some goodnews with you.
And they go, just get to thebottom line.
I know you're about to drop abomb on us.
You know, we're not stupid.
Yeah.
So hard before you jump right inand say, Listen, I got some, I
got some good news and some bad.
Let me share the bad news first.
(33:36):
Because see, that makes youbelievable.
Now they go, okay, you're beingreal with us.
Then I get to close the meetingwith, now the good news is, you
know, we're our our numbers areup or whatever.
So uh hard before easy.
Number, number two, big picturebefore smaller details.
So when they are stressed and weare all anxious, perhaps.
(33:57):
I think if we share detailsright away, they can get lost in
the in the details.
Tim Newman (34:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
But if I share, if I can put it this way, the box top
and then share how their puzzlepiece fits into the puzzle, they
need to see the box top.
Here's the big picture.
We're still working toward ourmission, we're still on track.
Here's what quarter four lookslike.
Now, Josh, I need this puzzlepiece to be played by you.
Need you, buddy.
Let's do it.
(34:23):
Jessica, need you to play yourpuzzle piece.
So that's another big one.
It's just um, yeah, it's just uhnecessary.
So I guess all that to say, letme just stop because I'm taking
too long here.
I need to step into their shoes.
Right.
Uh, not how I want tocommunicate or how frustrated I
am as the boss, but I need to Ineed to keep it real and uh and
(34:46):
and and and disclose things inthat in that fashion.
Tim Newman (34:49):
Yeah.
I I I love the puzzle analogybecause it's it really does
illustrate that from that biggerpicture.
You know, for one of the thingsfor me though is leaders also
have to admit they they're notright.
Or if you tell them you're gonnado something, either if you
don't do it, just say you didn'tdo it.
(35:10):
Or if you if you don't know theanswer, just say you didn't
answer, because you know for me,you know, especially you know,
from from the professorperspective, if they know right
away.
If I if I tell them I'm gonna dosomething and I don't do it and
they call me on it, I betterjust say, you know what, I
didn't do it, send me a reminderof this, or shoot me an email
and I'll I'll give back whateverit is.
(35:31):
But don't say don't say you didsomething if you didn't do it.
Don't give it an answer that'snot that you don't know to be
true, because that is that isjust so detrimental to
everything that you're trying toaccomplish.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
And number one on that is trust.
You're right.
It breaks trust.
So this is a historyillustration, but I think you're
spot on.
Uh probably one of the worstmistakes that John F.
Kennedy made more than 60 yearsago was the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
Uh we've read it in our historybooks, a horrible thing down in
down in Cuba.
(36:05):
Well, right afterwards, hispopularity went up.
In fact, he was baffled.
He said, It's amazing.
The more mistakes I make, themore they like me.
Well, here's what happened thatmade people like him.
He owned it.
As soon as that thing happened,he didn't blame Congress, he
didn't blame his cabinet, hedidn't blame the minister, the
uh defense secretary.
He said, This was on me.
(36:26):
I pulled, I made this decisionand I own it, and it's never
going to happen again.
Well, people love that honesty.
Like you just said, and when youown it and say, listen, that's
my bad.
I'm so sorry I didn't followthrough on that to a Gen Zer,
they go, Okay, I don't need youto be perfect, but I do need you
to be real.
So I actually had a Gen Zer sayto me, Dr.
(36:48):
Tim, the only thing worse thanbeing uncool is being unreal.
Isn't that a great comment?
Tim Newman (36:53):
That's that's that's phenomenal.
But it's I mean, it's it's true.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
That was that was a college thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (37:02):
It kind of makes you go, yeah, yeah, you're right.
And again, I'm I I'm an exer andI'm kind of like you in the
sense that you know just putyour head down, do what you got
to do.
And you know, people ask me howthings are going all the time.
I said, and I said my responseis nobody's told me otherwise,
so things are great.
And and and so it's it's butit's the exact opposite of Gen
Z.
Yeah.
It's it's that mindset.
(37:22):
Nobody's told me otherwise, soso we're sailing on our own.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Yes.
Yep.
Tim Newman (37:28):
So what what's a misc uh a misconception from a
Gen Z perspective in terms ofcommunicating with an authority
figure?
Because again, going back to oneof the things that you said
earlier, that uh somebody 15 orolder is not hasn't communicated
with a Gen Z in the workplace.
SPEAKER_00 (37:47):
It baffles me.
Yeah.
Well, I do think what must behappening, this is just my my
gut, not my data, is I thinkthat we can be so different
between age 50 and age 22 thatwe just seek out our own kind.
We meet at the water cooler withother 50-year-olds who think
(38:07):
like us, talk like us, vote likeus.
And I don't seek out that Gen Zwho seems like they're from
another country, you know, let'sbe honest.
But see, you taught them in acollege class.
So you were with these different20-somethings every every day or
every week, anyway.
So I feel like we need to seekout those that are unlike us,
and we need to build trust.
(38:28):
So the big misconception youjust asked about is that we
assume since we got the badgeon, we're the leader, that
they'll trust us in ourleadership.
Trust must be earned.
And it's earned through time andit's earned through credibility,
making good decisions, followthrough, keeping your promises,
those kinds of things.
Um, so yeah, I feel like that'sbut I here's another
(38:49):
misconception.
I think very many of us, I'mgonna put us in the same
category, Tim, that are over 40,just look at Gen Z on the
surface and go, man, they don'twant to work.
They don't really want to work.
You know, they're they'rethey're they seem lazy and they
leave right at five and not aminute later, like I want to get
out of here as soon as I can.
(39:10):
But you've heard me say this, Ithink, on another podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
When I met with my focus groups, I started hearing
another story.
They said, Oh no, we want towork.
We want to work about withsomething we're passionate
about.
SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
But one young lady said to me, Tim, can I, Dr.
Tim, she said, can I tell youwhy I leave right at five?
I said, Yeah.
She said, I leave right at fivebecause I have to run over to
another job.
I don't make enough money atthis first job to pay the bills
here in LA.
And then after that second job,I have to rush over to take care
(39:43):
of my mother who has stage fourcancer.
So suddenly I'm realizing when Ihear that, oh, she does work
actually, maybe better than Ido.
But I can't stop stereotypingand maybe listen a little bit
and find out maybe there's agreat human being inside that 22
year old.
Body that I need to get to knowand trust.
And who knows, maybe they'll beleading the organization one day
(40:05):
when it's all said and done.
Tim Newman (40:07):
Yeah, and I think that comes back down to just
having informal conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Yeah, it does.
Tim Newman (40:15):
It used to be called man management by walking
around.
And I'm not talking about that.
But but just you know what?
What's going on?
What's going on with you?
And and they'll if you start theconversation, they'll they'll
tell you what's going on.
They'll tell you aboutthemselves.
Uh and you know it it's uh getget both I think both sides need
to get over whatever it is andjust start the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
Yeah, no doubt.
Tim Newman (40:39):
And then it rolls.
SPEAKER_00 (40:41):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (40:42):
Yeah.
So what what what does confidentcommunication look like for
somebody who's a Gen Z?
Because they communicate againvery different differently than
we do.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I have found in many caseswe need to teach soft skills to
them.
You talked about that as youopened the podcast.
Interpersonal skills were rarelydeveloped on a screen during the
pandemic.
They fell behind by about twoyears.
The average this is data, notinsults.
No, this is it.
Tim Newman (41:12):
Real.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
So so cognitively advanced, they're smart as a
whip, but socially andemotionally behind.
So we're gonna have to buildthose soft skills intentionally
into their life.
And by the way, it may be assimple as I want you to look me
in the eye when you talk to me.
I want you to shake my hand whenyou walk through that door, and
I'll shake yours.
And I'm gonna treat you withrespect, and I expect you to
treat me with respect.
(41:33):
Those are fundamentals, but wemay have to teach them because
they're not automaticallyhappening.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (41:40):
Yeah, the the probably probably the last two
years that I was teaching, Ialmost had to stop teaching my
content area and was almoststrictly focusing on on the soft
skills.
Because if you it doesn't matterwhat you know, if you can't
communicate, if you if you can'thave a conversation with
somebody, it it just doesn'treally matter.
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Yeah.
So so let me share one thingabout that.
Okay.
Uh as an older guy, I have hadto learn what Charles Duhig
taught years years ago, thatwhen you're interacting with
someone, you're having aconversation, or you're
communicating to them as anaudience, you need to know what
(42:19):
kind of conversation they needto have.
Yes.
It's either a practicalconversation, a social
conversation, or an emotionalconversation.
And here's how he defines that.
A practical conversationcommonly happens at work.
It's just information.
We need to transfer someinformation, not a lot of
emotion.
Here's some facts, here's thedeadline, here's the date it's
(42:41):
due, et cetera.
That's practical.
And you and I, as older guys,just got used to a lot of
practical, not much emotion.
Let's just get the job done.
Very often a younger team membermight want to have a social
conversation.
So maybe they want to get intolast weekend's party they went
to.
And I don't mean to stereotype,but let's just say that's the
(43:02):
topic.
I need to stop correcting thatit was the 15th, not the 16th,
or something like that.
That doesn't matter.
Tim Newman (43:08):
Doesn't matter, right?
SPEAKER_00 (43:09):
Yeah, they're just trying to share a social, just
enjoy it with them, laugh withthem, affirm them, say, I'm so
glad you got some refreshmenttime.
But here's the clincher.
I find that many times a Gen Zor one needs needs to have an
emotional conversation whereit's very emotional, and they
start in with facts or data, butit's not about data at all.
(43:33):
They're feeling inadequate,maybe, or they're feeling I
didn't measure up or something.
And I need to recognize that andaffirm what I can.
So I'm going to give a verypersonal illustration, Tim, on
this one.
I missed it with my own youngadult daughter.
Bethany's in her 30s, and she'sa wonderful counselor down in
(43:53):
Orlando, Florida.
Uh, just a very good therapist.
Um she is married to Ben, butthey're not parents yet.
So she and I are in the caralone together, just driving one
day, just happened to have sometime together.
She goes, Dad, I got a questionfor you.
I'm ready for a practicalconversation at this point, by
the way.
And it wasn't so Bethany goes,Dad, if you were to go see a
(44:17):
counselor about a parentingissue, would you rather go see a
counselor that was a parent orgo to see one that maybe wasn't
a parent, but they'd done alltheir research and they were
ready to go.
Thinking I was having apractical conversation.
Tim Newman (44:32):
I know what you said.
I bet I know what you said.
SPEAKER_00 (44:34):
I said, Well, all things being equal, I think I'd
go to one that was actually aparent.
So they were their feet, theygo, Oh, I've been through the
same thing, you know.
Well, Bethany was quiet andgoes, okay, didn't really say
much the rest of the drive.
We got home, she hopped out ofthe car, went into the home
first.
I pulled the car in the garage.
But when I walked inside, Icould not find her.
(44:55):
And when I walked upstairs, Ilooked in her room, and she
tears were just coming down hercheeks.
I did not realize.
I had just unaffirmed her.
I had said, Bethany, I wouldn'tchoose you, that's for sure.
I'd choose somebody that hadsome credibility.
And I just realized, holy moly,I she was having, she was
(45:18):
needing dad to say, Bethany,you're adequate.
I'd go see you.
Um I'll stop there, but I'm justsaying leaders need to know what
communication is needed in themoment and lead before they
lead.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (45:33):
It's I I'm sorry you I'm sorry you did that, but I've
done this I've done verysimilar.
I I grew up with three brothers.
So I grew up, I mean, maledominated, my mom is and was a
saint.
I'm married, and I've got twodaughters.
And I the amount of times I'vesaid things and I've gotten the
look, why would you say that?
SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (45:54):
But it's it is what it is.
And and we learn from and thekey is to learn, hope the
audience gets it.
The key is to learn from that.
Yes.
Um and and in whatever situationit is, maybe you before you
respond, you ask a question toto get some clarity or whatever
it is, but learn from the fromthose things, just like we're
asking our students to do thesame thing.
SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
Yes, absolutely.
No doubt about it.
Tim Newman (46:17):
So Tim, where where can people find uh find you to
work with you, find out what'sgoing on with Gen Z and get more
information?
SPEAKER_00 (46:24):
Yeah, thanks for asking, Tim.
It's been a great conversation.
Well, probably the easiest wayto find me in a bunch of free
stuff is my own website,Timelmore.com, Timelmore.com.
Uh Growing Leaders is out there.
It's a maxwell nonprofit that Istarted uh over 20 years ago.
You could get curriculum forteaching soft skills to young
people.
(46:44):
But um I would say too, yeah, Iwould love to help with Gen Z if
you've got Gen Z and you'remanaging it uh somewhere,
somehow.
Uh my book is called The FutureBegins with Z.
Nine Strategies to Let It LeadGeneration Z as they disrupt the
workplace.
And it's on Amazon or or oranywhere good books are sold.
But um that might be a goodguidebook for you to use just to
(47:07):
make sure you're getting itright along the way.
Tim Newman (47:09):
Tim, it's a great, it's a great guidebook.
It's a great guidebook.
I yeah.
I'll just be honest with you.
Not only did I read the book umwhen we went to see the kids for
Thanksgiving, we listened to thebook all the way back from
Thanksgiving, too.
So um it's there there's there'sso much gold in there, so so
(47:30):
many good good ideas and andvalue.
Can't thank you enough fornumber one for writing the book,
but I also can't thank youenough for for spending some
time with us and and and ggiving us the the this
information that hopefullypeople can go and start to do
and change things and lead Gen Zbetter starting today, not next
week, not tomorrow, but today.
(47:52):
That's start happening today.
SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
Absolutely.
I'm with you all the way.
They will make us better leadersif we'll let them.
Thanks, Tim.
I appreciate it.
Tim Newman (48:00):
Tim, again, thanks so much.
Take care, and we'll talk to yousoon.
Be sure to visitspeakingwithconfidence
podcast.com to get your freeebook, Top 21 Challenges for
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Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead to real
results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turning
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on a
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is Dr.
(00:30):
Tim Elmore.
Tim is the founder of GrowingLeaders, an Atlanta-based
nonprofit organization createdto developing emerging leaders.
His work grew out of 20 years ofserving alongside Dr.
John C.
Maxwell.
Elmore has appeared in the WallStreet Journal, The Washington
Post, USA Today, PsychologyToday.
He's also been featured on CNN'sHeadline News, Fox Business,
(00:55):
Newsmax TV, and Fox and Friendsto talk about leading multiple
generations in the marketplace.
He's written over 35 books,including Habitudes, Images of
Form Leadership, Habits, andAttitudes, Eight Paradoxes of
Great Leadership, and a New Kindof Diversity, making different
generations on your team acompetitive advantage.
(01:15):
His latest book, The FutureBegins with Z, Nine Strategies
to Lead Generation Z as theyupset the marketplace, was
released in the fall of 2025.
Tim, welcome to speaking withconfidence.
I'm so happy to have you today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Thank you, Tim.
We're going to have a greatconversation, I can tell.
Tim Newman (01:31):
And we are not just because our name is Tim, and not
just because we dress the light,but we've got a lot of
information to cover.
And uh I got to tell you whatwhen I heard you talk about your
new book, you know, The FutureBegins with Z, on a podcast with
John Maxwell and Mark Cole.
I told my wife wife that therewas finally some data on some of
(01:53):
the things that I've been sayingfor years, such as that the Gen
Z is smarter than previousgenerations.
Gen Z is more entrepreneurialthan other generations, but
they're the worst communicators.
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (02:08):
So I again really looking forward to talking to
you about about Gen Z and why weneed to make some fundamental
changes in how we lead andcommunicate with them.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
Yeah, good.
I'm ready.
Let's do it.
Tim Newman (02:20):
All right.
So the first thing that thatreally, really jumped out at me
is the whole idea of anxietythat our young professionals are
facing.
And let me just make sure I getthe stat right, that the anxiety
levels today are the same as apsychiatric patient.
(02:43):
A psychiatric patient in 1950s.
Yes.
How did we get here, Tim?
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
How did that happen?
It was a slow evolution thathappened even before the
smartphone, but the smartphoneabsolutely accelerated the rise
of anxiety, panic attacks,feeling overwhelmed.
But Tim, if you think about it,uh a young person or an old
person for that matter, that'son social media, when you add
the messaging from social mediato every other source of
(03:10):
communication coming at them,it's 10,000 messages every day.
I don't think we're hardwired totake in 10,000 messages in every
day.
So um, so if you'recommunicating, you're up against
9,999 other messages.
Good luck with that.
But I also think it puts a GenZ, who's a young adult now, in
an overwhelming spot.
(03:32):
That's the number one word thatcollege students today use to
describe their life.
I'm overwhelmed.
So uh the anxiety is a naturaloutgrowth of the new world we're
living in.
And I think we're gonna have tofind not just coping mechanisms,
but coping skills in order tothrive in this new day.
Tim Newman (03:49):
Yeah, you know, throughout my career, I there
was I made two major pivots inmy career uh uh around some of
the things that were happeningsocially.
One was in the late 2000s aroundsocial media.
You know, I had kids at thepoint at that point, I asked my
daughter who was uh she was inmiddle school, asked her about
Twitter, and she said, Dad, youdon't want anything to do with
(04:10):
Twitter.
And I said, Okay, that means Ibetter figure out what Twitter
is.
Yeah, yeah.
And the second and the secondwas around 2017, 2018, when I
noticed, number one, I wasn'tconnecting with students like I
used to, and the level ofanxiety, how they would get so
upset over j just somethingsmall that that I would think
would be trivial, and I didn'tknow how to handle it.
(04:31):
I didn't I didn't know what whatto do.
Um so what can we do as as theolder generations to to number
one adjust, but also coach themto have grit.
You talk about grit in your umin your book.
What can we do?
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Two things I always like to say about anxiety.
When I look at the data, Ithink, depending on the young
person that might be in front ofyou, they're either needed going
to need to be coached up by ussaying, hey, listen, we're all a
little anxious right now.
It's it's it's a normal part oflife.
You're not weird, you're notabnormal, we're all a little
stressed, and stop thinking thatyou have some disorder.
(05:12):
Let's just make it through thestress.
Sometimes I think we need to saythat.
The other angle or the otherside of the same coin, Tim, is
this.
I think we who are, let's say,over 40 years old, need to make
sure we start with empathy inorder to get to that grit we
want to develop in them.
Um, I think it's easy forsomeone like me who's in the
(05:33):
45th year of his career, to say,come on, just grow up, grow a
little grit, you know, suck itup, buttercup, you know, those
kinds of things.
And and while I'm tempted to dothat, that's never gotten me any
good outcome.
No doubt.
But I can lean in and say,listen, I know it's weird right
now.
I know it's hard right now, butwe can do it together.
(05:54):
So in the book, I talk aboutPTSD, which we've all heard,
that term we're all familiarwith, even if you're a layman
when it comes to psychology,post-traumatic stress disorder.
82% of Gen Z members claim tohave gone through a trauma.
And for many of them, it was thepandemic, and that was real for
sure.
(06:14):
But we rarely talk about PTG,post-traumatic growth.
Growth, yeah.
Which actually 80% of the peoplethat go through trauma end up
with PTG and not end up withPTSD.
So they end up in a growth area.
But Tim, here's what you and Iwill both love.
It usually happens when they gothrough the trauma, but someone
(06:35):
comes alongside of them and isable to communicate.
Look at how you've gotten betterand stronger and healthier and
more joyful and grateful as aresult of that hardship.
Now, I probably sound likeGrandpa right now, but it's
basically us saying, listen,good things can happen through
hard times.
It's a weight room.
I go into the weight room.
Do I like the lifting ofweights?
(06:56):
No, I don't.
But boy, I like the aftermathwhen I look a little stronger uh
afterwards.
So I'll stop there.
But PTG is what we've got to gofor when it comes to the empathy
and the and the stress that weface right now.
Tim Newman (07:07):
Well, I I'd like for you to talk a little bit more
about PTG because uh, you know,again, that that's something
that uh number one, I didn'tknow there was a term for it,
but you can see it.
When when you work with peopleand and you and you and you see
where they are and you get themgoing and get them moving
forward, and then watch themlook back and say, look, you
know, thank you for for helpingme, and this is where I grew,
and thank you for doing orsaying this.
(07:29):
Um and being intentional abouthelping them grow.
Can you can you talk a littlebit about that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
Absolutely.
So it's a mindset shift, isn'tit?
It's a way of helping another orourselves for that meant.
We may need to look in themirror and do this.
But we look at them and we say,I acknowledge your hardship.
So I am empathizing with you.
I'm acknowledging it's hard.
However, as I we go forward, Iknow the worst thing I can leave
(07:55):
you with is a victim mindset.
Yes, you're a victim.
We're probably all victims.
We could all rehearse for 30minutes over the things that
have gone wrong.
But what if I allow for thatyoung person, a Gen Z member,
for instance, to say, I get it,but I cannot leave you where you
are.
So I actually uh differentiatein the book between empathy and
(08:17):
compassion.
It's just semantics, but let metell you what helps me.
If I'm empathetic to a Gen Zmember, I say, Oh, I feel your
hurt.
Okay, I hurt with you.
That's empathy.
I've stepped into your shoes.
That's empathy.
When I'm compassionate, I feelthat empathy, but I but I want
to equip them to make it throughthat tough time.
(08:39):
So it's the difference.
Here's a metaphor.
It's the difference between uhyou being in the hospital and
you get a visit from a friendand you get a visit from a
nurse.
A friend can sit down next toyour bed and say, gee, I'm so
sorry this has happened to you.
Can I get you a cup of water?
A nurse says, I'm really sorryabout this, but let's do, let me
treat you right now.
Let me get you through thishardship, this sickness, or this
(09:02):
disease.
That's what we need to be nursesor doctors, not just friends
when it comes to uh the stresslevels we see.
Tim Newman (09:09):
Yeah, and I I kind of relate that to I had my knee
replaced a couple years ago.
Um my wife was there, you know,and you know, make me feel good.
And the physical therapist said,okay, get up, let's go, let's
let's go for a walk.
Doc, I'd rather just stay here.
It's good.
But you gotta get, you have to,that's that's part of it, you
have to get up and move.
And and you said somethingyou've been through some
(09:31):
traumas, seven car accidents,and I've never spoken to
somebody who's survived a planecrash.
And so we you know we like yousaid, we all have trauma, we all
have have those things, andfinding ways to to to move
forward.
And I you know, I I think aboutit from a from an educational
perspective.
And I'm a lot like you in in thewhole idea of pracademics.
(09:52):
You know, I my background mybackground was in uh sport
management, so I worked withsport marketing.
And if if if we didn't practicepracademics, our students would
never get jobs in that industry.
Um but from an educationalperspective, what what can we be
doing we be doing as educatorswith with our students so that
(10:14):
they're ready or they're they'remore ready tomorrow to go out in
the world of work um than theyare now?
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Yeah.
I'll tell you what's goingthrough my mind right now, Tim,
and this may or may not be agreat answer, but here's what
streaked through my mind.
Um I think we need to help themmanage their expectations.
So without stereotyping, there'sa lot of Gen Zers that either
through social media or throughmama who told them they're
awesome for putting the spoon inthe dishwasher.
(10:44):
Yeah, they've got um maybe anunrealistic expectation.
And I tell you where I learnedthis.
I talk to employers that go, ohmy gosh, I just interviewed a
job candidate who's from Gen Zand they expected a six-digit
salary, and I want to have, youknow, I want to be a VP by the
time I'm 26, and they're going,oh my gosh.
So in the in the book, I talkabout the fact that conflict
(11:06):
expands based on the distancebetween expectations and
reality.
If we don't right-size thosemaybe unrealistic, idealistic
expectations, we've done them adisservice.
So it's a mindset shift.
Um, the second thing that goesthrough my mind, though, is I
think we need to um offer them adifferent narrative.
(11:29):
For instance, if they feel likethey are a victim of
circumstances, I can't find ajob, or my boyfriend book broke
up with me, or I've been throughthis trauma and now I can't get
out of it.
Um I think we need to help themchange what they how they talk
to themselves.
Oh, we see.
So um here's here's a couple ofexamples.
(11:50):
I I noticed this year, Tim, thatum probably because I'm aging,
I'm now in my 60s, I I'mnoticing that uh uh my brain is
focusing on problems that needto be solved more than ever.
And I did a little researchbehind this, and here's what I
discovered.
(12:10):
As we age, our brain knows we'regonna have to conserve energy as
we get older.
We're not as energetic as wewere when we were in our 20s.
So, in that conserving ofenergy, we tend to not focus on
what's right.
That doesn't need our attention.
It's going well.
We need to focus on what'swrong.
So this makes sense.
Tim Newman (12:27):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
We start, we tend to ruminate on these things that
are going wrong.
Well, next thing I know, I'm agrumpy old man.
I'm over speaking, but you know,I'm I get you right.
Get off my lawn, you know, thosekinds of things.
unknown (12:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
So, so what I'm doing now, when I get up in the
morning, uh, one of the firstthings I do, I put my slippers
on, I go get a drink of water,but I say to myself, good things
keep happening to me.
Now it's true, but I tend tolook at the things that I need
to fix that day.
So on my iPhone, I have in thenotes section a list of things
(13:03):
I've written down that are goodthings that just keep happening
to me.
Wow.
The phone keeps ringing withopportunities.
I have an incredible family, andmy kids have found spouses that
we love.
Uh, you know, those kinds ofthings.
Yes, right, right.
It's more than a gratitudething, though, Tim.
It's more I'm acknowledgingthat, yeah, there's some
problems that need to be solved.
I'm not in denial, but goodthings keep happening.
(13:26):
It puts a skip in my step.
So I'm wondering, could we takethat person in front of us,
young or old for that matter,and remind them you got some
momentum now and you don't evenknow it, or maybe you're not
realizing it.
So I'll stop there.
Tim Newman (13:40):
But it's but again, that that's that's so so
powerful.
You know, if if if we can makethem have that make we can't
make them do anything, but butif we can get them to understand
that mind shift and practice it,it's it's small steps, small
steps, small steps.
And yeah, you know, I'm so gladyou you you mentioned your your
family and your kids.
I've got grandkids now, and andwell, yeah.
I live in I live in SouthCarolina, so it's it's it's cold
(14:02):
today, but we're going up forfor for Christmas here, and it's
gonna be cold.
And I I told my wife, I said,look, let's just go up.
We're gonna be we're gonna bewith our kids, we're gonna be
with our grandkids.
Let's not we're not gonnacomplain that it's cold.
We're good, we're gonna bearound our the our most
important treasures.
SPEAKER_00 (14:19):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (14:19):
Let's just have fun and enjoy it and take some of
those other things.
Now, again, like you said, notthat they're not there, not that
we're ignoring them, but we'regonna focus on the on the on
those good pieces.
And and if we can do that andthe younger generations can see
us doing that, maybe that's alsosomething that's gonna trigger
them to do the same.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
I think so.
You know, I'm thinking about theStockdale paradox.
Um, Admiral James Stockdale wasa Vietnam um officer who was the
highest ranking officer to becaught by the by the North
Vietnamese and put in a POWcamp.
Long story short, he's in thatcamp, I think, for seven years.
So this is not a cakewalk, andit went on a long time.
(15:01):
He made it out.
And so he was interviewed um andby Jim Collins from Stanford.
And Jim Collins said, Um, well,what enabled you to, you know,
to make it out?
And he said, Well, um, I washopeful.
I stayed hopeful.
And then he defined it as, Ialways believed that one day I
(15:25):
would prevail and make it out ofthis and I would do something
good with this.
Jim Collins said in response,Wow, that's great.
Who didn't make it out?
And you know what he said?
He said, it was the optimist.
And and Collins said, wait, Ithought you just said you were
optimistic.
He said, No, I had hope.
There's a difference betweenhope and hope and oh okay, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
(15:45):
And here's what he explained.
He said, the optimists were theprisoners with me there that
said, Well, by Easter, we'll allbe out.
And then Easter came and left,and they were still there.
Well, by Christmas, we'll all befree.
And then Christmas came andleft.
They were talking about thingsthat are out of their control.
Tim Newman (16:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
Hope was I am going to make it through this thing,
and one day I believe I willbenefit from this and make it
out and so forth.
So I think we need to becareful, especially as we coach
others and we communicate toothers, that we don't make
promises that we're not incontrol of, right.
Or, you know, whatever.
We need to make sure that we'redifferentiating between I am
(16:26):
hopeful, and I am hopeful rightnow.
I'm hopeful in Gen for Gen Z andthe difference they're going to
make if we lead them well.
But but I'm also staying awayfrom those unrealistic
expectations and yeah, thatoptimism that's just
superficial.
Tim Newman (16:42):
Yeah.
Was there a moment when you didyour were doing research for
this that you that you realizedthat you were underestimating
Gen Z?
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Yeah.
Um the very opening story, Ireveal that.
I went into this research, likemost others, let's just say
people our age or past midlife,and I was thinking, ah, kids,
they need to grow some grit.
They need to be resilient, theyneed to not be lazy, they need
to work hard.
That sounds like a grandpa.
(17:14):
But um, and by the way, I gotthat confirmed.
Every employer I talked to,except maybe one or two, three
out of four employers told methat Generation Z is the
toughest generation to manage.
Three out of four.
Thirty percent of them said Ifired them within the first
month of their employment.
(17:36):
And another 30%, Tim, said Iavoid hiring Gen Z altogether.
Well, that's not a path forward.
That's just not a good path.
Tim Newman (17:44):
It's not.
Yeah, it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
So I began to meet with these Gen Zers.
I surveyed over 2,000, to beexact, 2014 members of Gen Z.
Then I hosted focus groups, 21focus groups, from California to
Georgia.
And I began to meet some youngpeople where my mindset changed.
So let me tell you one quickstory.
(18:06):
Colin Webb, I've known him sincehe was in high school.
Colin graduated, and he was asmart kid.
So he got an invitation to go upto MIT for his undergraduate
work.
Went to MIT, did really well.
And you can imagine when hegraduated, he got several job
offers.
So Colin decided to move fromBoston to Detroit, Michigan, and
(18:29):
work for one of the big three,General Motors, one of the big
three automakers.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:35):
Now they put him in the smart car division, so he's
very excited as he starts.
But as he looks around, thisyoung 22-year-old young man, he
looks around, he sees, if I canbe blunt, uh a very traditional
setting.
You know, they've been around100 years or so, and they did
some old school things.
And so he began to write down alist of things that they could
(18:57):
do better.
They could do professionaldevelopment better, they could
do this system over here better.
He took the list to hissupervisor, and he pretty much
got shut down.
His supervisor basically said,Colin, we didn't hire you to
come up with ideas.
Keep your nose to thegrindstone, keep your head down,
get your work done.
(19:18):
So Colin said, Yes, sir, wentback to his desk, but he wasn't
done.
In the spirit of a true Gen Zer,Colin writes, the CEO of General
Motors, Mary Barra.
And in his email, he says, Mary,I have some great ideas that we
could use here.
I think, I think you'll likethem.
She reads the email and repliesto him and says, Colin, these
(19:42):
are really good ideas.
Let me take them to my executiveteam.
And when she did, they agreedthat these were great ideas.
But as you've heard me saybefore, when those ideas made
its way down the organizationalchart and got to the middle
manager and his supervisor, onceagain they died on the vine.
Yeah.
Colin was told you need to bearound here eight years before
(20:03):
you get to lead anything.
So you might as well have toldColin to leave right now.
Right.
Within a year he left.
Here's what makes me optimistic.
He left and has since, he'sstill in his 20s, he has since
started three companies.
He's an entrepreneur, a serialentrepreneur.
He just sold company number two,made a boatload of money.
(20:26):
He's working on a third now.
It's it's it's AI related andit's incredible, and it's
something I could never do.
But I'm thinking to myself, weneed those callings at our
workplaces.
Yes.
But we lose them when we prettymuch shut them down and say,
here's the way we do them.
We don't do things that wayaround here.
(20:46):
So uh anyway, I'm veryoptimistic.
The book isn't as a very hopefulbook, but I think we're gonna
need to change the way we leadthem if we're gonna succeed.
Tim Newman (20:55):
Absolutely.
And you know, I look at thingsmaybe I look at things
differently than than most, butto to me it comes back to
building relationships andbuilding trust before before you
do anything else.
And I think if if you buildrelationships and you build
trust, everything that comesafter that, whether it's it's
tough times, whether it'sfeedback, whether it's um you
(21:15):
make a mistake or what whateverit is, those things can be
handled because there's thatrelationship.
There's there's that trust thatyou know about it can be about
any number of different things.
And that's really what I thinkthe Gen Z needs is to feel a
part of things and to be trustedto be able to do things.
(21:37):
And if they make a mistake, it'snot that it's gonna be
overlooked or washed away, butthere will be some
accountability, but it's not theend of the world.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
Yeah, no doubt.
You hit the nail on the head.
I cannot underscore enough forlisteners who care about young
people.
Their relationship iseverything.
They're looking to be trusted,and I know that's hard, bosses
out there, because you go, Well,I don't even know if I can trust
them yet, you know.
But um, they're looking for thatconnection.
I always tell people you got toconnect before you correct.
(22:08):
Uh that's just a fact.
Today, especially.
Uh, and I share an acronym uhwhen I talk about giving
feedback to Gen Z, um, it's it'sa leg, A-L-E-G, a leg.
And it reminds me every time Ihave to have a hard conversation
with somebody, I need topractice A-L-E-G.
The letter A reminds me, I gotto start with asking, not
(22:30):
telling.
I want to tell them what they'vedone wrong, but I need to start
with, hey, tell me your thoughtprocess behind that decision you
just made.
What were you thinking there?
You know?
Um, when I ask someone how theycame to this conclusion, they
feel valued.
I'm actually asking this youngperson.
The letter A reminds me I've gotto listen.
(22:50):
And that's an art form that ishard for leaders.
Um, the more you know, theharder it is to listen.
And you feel like you know alot.
So uh but when I listen, theyfeel heard.
And this is the number one thingthey're looking for.
So I want to have a voice, Iwant to be heard.
The letter E in a leg,empathize.
So that's what you were justtalking about the connection,
the relationship.
(23:11):
I need to demonstrate orcommunicate.
Uh I get it now, or I had noidea, but thanks for telling me.
Or I bet that made you feelhorrible when that happened.
But when we do this, they feelunderstood.
Right.
So get it.
They feel valued, they feelheard, they feel understood.
When we've done this, Tim, nowwe've earned the right to
(23:32):
practice letter G, which is toguide them.
Right.
That's what I wanted to do inthe first place.
unknown (23:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
But I've earned it now over the last 15 minutes or
so through the bridge I built,not the badge I wear.
And that's that badge, thatbridge is the connection that
you just talked about.
I cannot underestimate orunderscore enough how important
that is.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (23:54):
You know the the the trust, the listening, and you
and in your book, you also talkabout something that um is is
it's it's easy to remember, butyou know, when I when I tell
people about this, they theylook at me like I'm nuts.
I said, when you talk, you needto talk with confidence, like
you're right.
Yeah.
But when it's time to listen,you need to listen like you're
(24:14):
wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (24:16):
I actually Especially with Gen Z.
That's it's it's so important.
SPEAKER_00 (24:20):
This is key.
You're right.
It's a practice I now havepracticed for four years now.
I did a book called The EightParadoxes of Great Leadership,
and that's one of them.
To be confident and humble.
And that means speak withconfidence, but listen with.
I could be wrong about this.
And that 22-year-old may just beright.
Uh I think the best idea shouldwin, even if it's from an intern
(24:41):
and it's not Bob who's 54 yearsold or whatever.
So yeah, I'm with you all theway.
Tim Newman (24:48):
You know, it it and talk about feedback, you know,
in in the late in your last uhepisode of your feedback,
Generations at Work, you had aphenomenal guest on one that
talked about um feedback and andhow to give it because and it's
so important.
And you talked about you knowthe the five most important
people in your life and how theygave you feedback, and the the
(25:10):
basis of that feedback wasbecause they care about you.
Yes.
Yes.
No matter what it was, they beand you grew because they cared
about you.
And that's I think the thebottom line here.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
You're you're exactly right.
And if we do it out of belief,not relief, that's the key.
So I know that's a cliche, butthink think with me.
I tend to offer hard feedback asa surgeon or a vampire.
I know that's crazy, but staywith us.
If I'm a vampire, by the way, amI right about this?
Yeah, you're you're absolutelyright.
(25:40):
Both draw blood.
They both draw blood, but verydifferent.
The vampire sneaks up on you ina darkened room, bites you, the
blood comes out, and you die.
You you fall to the ground.
Surgeon, well-lit room.
Everybody's prepared for what'sabout to happen.
We've talked about it ahead oftime.
And the surgeon just removesthat one tumor.
(26:03):
He doesn't slice up your wholebody.
Right.
I think we offer that surgerythat other people need to hear,
that feedback that may be hard.
Like a surgeon, I do it out ofbelief in this person.
I believe in you, and that's whyI want to offer this hard
because I think you're betterthan this.
Yes.
Or relief.
I want to just relieve myselfand vent.
(26:24):
I want to get rid of thisfrustration I have with this
young whipper snapper orwhatever.
So think belief, not relief,when you next time you have to
have a hard conversation.
Tim Newman (26:34):
And and this kind of brings up something else.
You know, you you talked alittle bit about, you know,
employers just kind of throwingtheir hands up and not even
hiring Gen Z.
Yeah.
Or, you know, Gen Z haven't evenhad a conversation with somebody
over 50 at their place of work.
To me, that that just that'sjust a failure all the way
around.
Yeah.
And we talk about responsibilityfrom the employer side.
(26:56):
And and and I've got friends whowould throw their hands out,
they can't, they uh kids won'tread, they won't write, they
won't do this.
And and I talked to them, sowhat are you doing to to get
them to do that?
What are you get doing to enticethem or showing them?
But from the Gen Z perspective,they have some responsibility
here as well.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Yeah, no doubt about it.
And I think the answer is almostalways in the middle when it
comes to teams and work and soforth.
Um I I will always challenge ayoung person to better
themselves.
Uh, in other words, I believethey're better than they just
showed me in that last poorperformance.
So I'm gonna challenge you, I'mgonna call you up to that.
(27:36):
But I think I need to lean intothem as well.
So I find the answer in themiddle.
And and uh when we do, we'recommunicating.
I want to lean into you becauseI care about you, but I'm asking
you to grow up.
So one of the metaphors that weuse, I use when I talk about
this is the velvet-coveredbrick.
(27:57):
Think about that.
Yeah.
Velvet brick is my best, uh mybest image for what leadership
is.
Velvet on the outside, whichsays, I support you, I I'm
behind you, I have your back, Ibelieve in you.
Right.
The brick part is because Ibelieve in you, I'm not gonna
let you get by with poorperformance here.
(28:18):
Right.
You're better than you justshowed me, Josh or Jessica, and
I'm gonna call it out of you.
So that's what they need,supportive and demanding,
supportive and demanding.
And uh I I feel like when we dothat, they're gonna become their
best sells uh in the on theteam.
Tim Newman (28:33):
Yeah, that and I I look at it like something very
similar, but from the sportsperspective, a coach, he's not
gonna let you get away from getaway from get away with that.
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (28:43):
That's right.
Tim Newman (28:44):
They're gonna be all over you, and you and you if
you're not gonna do it and getit right, after I mean we give
you a couple opportunities, butthen we're gonna move on to
somebody else.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
That's right.
Absolutely.
That's exactly and that's a realworld picture.
Coaches are probably a littlemore blunt than a professor
sometimes because they got towin or they're out.
Tim Newman (29:02):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
So um absolutely right.
And I I I love student athleteswho've gone through the the
rigor and the discipline of agood coach because they believe
they can do it and they have togive their best, or they don't
play on Saturday, Saturday'sgame or Friday's match, or
whatever.
Tim Newman (29:21):
Whatever it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
Tim Newman (29:24):
So it in terms of communication, uh in the book
you talk about the Gen Z one'scommunication that's authentic,
brief, and frequent.
Yeah.
Which of those three do leadersget wrong the most?
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Uh wow.
Probably depends on the leader.
I feel like I had to learn to beauthentic as a boomer.
Uh the reason I say that is notbecause boomers aren't
authentic.
I just feel like I entered mycareer in a time you bet your
you put your best foot forward,never let them see you sweat,
leave your personal problems atthe door, get your work done,
(29:58):
you know, blah, blah, blah.
Today it's bring your whole selfto work.
So a Gen Zer comes in and theymay bring their baggage, maybe,
or their emotional volatility.
So I had to learn to beauthentic with them.
And Tim, I don't think thatmeans we hang out our dirty
laundry every day.
No, right, right.
But it means I might say, yeah,this is a scary situation, isn't
(30:21):
it?
We're going through a pandemicright now.
I've never been through one.
Let's let's do this together.
You know, that sort of thing.
Right.
So authenticity may be numberone.
It's just my guess.
But I'm telling you, I have ahard time being brief sometimes.
Have you can you tell already?
Tim Newman (30:37):
Yeah, but it for me it's frequent.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (30:44):
They want it, they want it now, and they want it
now.
Okay, but I just I literally, Iliterally just talked to you 10
minutes ago.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
Yeah, right.
Tim, I was shocked when I readthe data on this.
The average Gen Zer at work in ajob wants daily check-ins from
their boss.
When I say that to bosses, theygo, Are you kidding me?
I'm doing my own work.
I I can't check on junior and amI okay over here?
But um, the daily check-in makessense because one, they may have
(31:13):
all through school been playingvideo games where they get
regular check-ins, you knowexactly what level you're on in
Grand Theft Auto or whatever,Minecraft.
Uh, but also I think that um ifthey hear no news from their
boss, they can assume the veryworst.
Right.
Um, I worked for John Maxwellright out of college.
(31:35):
I assume that if John didn'ttalk to me, I knew this is all
good.
We're all good.
Let's keep that that in fact.
I didn't want to have a meetingwith him, you know, if it was at
the end of the day.
So I I feel like we just need toadapt as leaders and realize
this new crop of young peopleneed to be led differently.
Um, I call them the sandpaper onmy leadership that I did not
(31:57):
know I needed.
And they are gonna sandpaper me.
I they're not gonna put up, if Ican be blunt, they're not gonna
put up with BS that I might havebeen prone to share.
They're gonna demand that we'rereal and that we're honest and
that we're disclosing where weare.
Um, but when we do that, I thinkthey're gonna go to the mat for
us and and and oh they will.
Tim Newman (32:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You talk about the BS.
Uh that they they've got areally good BS detector.
I mean, they're they're reallygood about it.
So what what communicationhabits instantly break that
trust with them?
SPEAKER_00 (32:32):
Wow.
Well, inauthenticity, meaningI'm fake.
They can smell a fake a mileaway.
That's the BS factor.
So they can smell fake and thatyou're just, you know, not
really being honest with meabout what's what's happening.
Um by the way, let me take areal quick sidebar since this is
really on communication.
(32:53):
I have found, and I did put thisin the book, I have found that
there's a sequence I need tofollow if we're going through a
difficult season, and I've gotGen Sears in front of me.
Number one, by the way, there'sthree three big ideas here,
okay?
Number one, I need to um do hardbefore easy.
(33:14):
Meaning if they know things arenot going well, my my humanity
says, Oh, let me share some goodnews with you.
And they go, just get to thebottom line.
I know you're about to drop abomb on us.
You know, we're not stupid.
Yeah.
So hard before you jump right inand say, Listen, I got some, I
got some good news and some bad.
Let me share the bad news first.
(33:36):
Because see, that makes youbelievable.
Now they go, okay, you're beingreal with us.
Then I get to close the meetingwith, now the good news is, you
know, we're our our numbers areup or whatever.
So uh hard before easy.
Number, number two, big picturebefore smaller details.
So when they are stressed and weare all anxious, perhaps.
(33:57):
I think if we share detailsright away, they can get lost in
the in the details.
Tim Newman (34:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
But if I share, if I can put it this way, the box top
and then share how their puzzlepiece fits into the puzzle, they
need to see the box top.
Here's the big picture.
We're still working toward ourmission, we're still on track.
Here's what quarter four lookslike.
Now, Josh, I need this puzzlepiece to be played by you.
Need you, buddy.
Let's do it.
(34:23):
Jessica, need you to play yourpuzzle piece.
So that's another big one.
It's just um, yeah, it's just uhnecessary.
So I guess all that to say, letme just stop because I'm taking
too long here.
I need to step into their shoes.
Right.
Uh, not how I want tocommunicate or how frustrated I
am as the boss, but I need to Ineed to keep it real and uh and
(34:46):
and and and disclose things inthat in that fashion.
Tim Newman (34:49):
Yeah.
I I I love the puzzle analogybecause it's it really does
illustrate that from that biggerpicture.
You know, for one of the thingsfor me though is leaders also
have to admit they they're notright.
Or if you tell them you're gonnado something, either if you
don't do it, just say you didn'tdo it.
(35:10):
Or if you if you don't know theanswer, just say you didn't
answer, because you know for me,you know, especially you know,
from from the professorperspective, if they know right
away.
If I if I tell them I'm gonna dosomething and I don't do it and
they call me on it, I betterjust say, you know what, I
didn't do it, send me a reminderof this, or shoot me an email
and I'll I'll give back whateverit is.
(35:31):
But don't say don't say you didsomething if you didn't do it.
Don't give it an answer that'snot that you don't know to be
true, because that is that isjust so detrimental to
everything that you're trying toaccomplish.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
And number one on that is trust.
You're right.
It breaks trust.
So this is a historyillustration, but I think you're
spot on.
Uh probably one of the worstmistakes that John F.
Kennedy made more than 60 yearsago was the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
Uh we've read it in our historybooks, a horrible thing down in
down in Cuba.
(36:05):
Well, right afterwards, hispopularity went up.
In fact, he was baffled.
He said, It's amazing.
The more mistakes I make, themore they like me.
Well, here's what happened thatmade people like him.
He owned it.
As soon as that thing happened,he didn't blame Congress, he
didn't blame his cabinet, hedidn't blame the minister, the
uh defense secretary.
He said, This was on me.
(36:26):
I pulled, I made this decisionand I own it, and it's never
going to happen again.
Well, people love that honesty.
Like you just said, and when youown it and say, listen, that's
my bad.
I'm so sorry I didn't followthrough on that to a Gen Zer,
they go, Okay, I don't need youto be perfect, but I do need you
to be real.
So I actually had a Gen Zer sayto me, Dr.
(36:48):
Tim, the only thing worse thanbeing uncool is being unreal.
Isn't that a great comment?
Tim Newman (36:53):
That's that's that's phenomenal.
But it's I mean, it's it's true.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
That was that was a college thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (37:02):
It kind of makes you go, yeah, yeah, you're right.
And again, I'm I I'm an exer andI'm kind of like you in the
sense that you know just putyour head down, do what you got
to do.
And you know, people ask me howthings are going all the time.
I said, and I said my responseis nobody's told me otherwise,
so things are great.
And and and so it's it's butit's the exact opposite of Gen
Z.
Yeah.
It's it's that mindset.
(37:22):
Nobody's told me otherwise, soso we're sailing on our own.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Yes.
Yep.
Tim Newman (37:28):
So what what's a misc uh a misconception from a
Gen Z perspective in terms ofcommunicating with an authority
figure?
Because again, going back to oneof the things that you said
earlier, that uh somebody 15 orolder is not hasn't communicated
with a Gen Z in the workplace.
SPEAKER_00 (37:47):
It baffles me.
Yeah.
Well, I do think what must behappening, this is just my my
gut, not my data, is I thinkthat we can be so different
between age 50 and age 22 thatwe just seek out our own kind.
We meet at the water cooler withother 50-year-olds who think
(38:07):
like us, talk like us, vote likeus.
And I don't seek out that Gen Zwho seems like they're from
another country, you know, let'sbe honest.
But see, you taught them in acollege class.
So you were with these different20-somethings every every day or
every week, anyway.
So I feel like we need to seekout those that are unlike us,
and we need to build trust.
(38:28):
So the big misconception youjust asked about is that we
assume since we got the badgeon, we're the leader, that
they'll trust us in ourleadership.
Trust must be earned.
And it's earned through time andit's earned through credibility,
making good decisions, followthrough, keeping your promises,
those kinds of things.
Um, so yeah, I feel like that'sbut I here's another
(38:49):
misconception.
I think very many of us, I'mgonna put us in the same
category, Tim, that are over 40,just look at Gen Z on the
surface and go, man, they don'twant to work.
They don't really want to work.
You know, they're they'rethey're they seem lazy and they
leave right at five and not aminute later, like I want to get
out of here as soon as I can.
(39:10):
But you've heard me say this, Ithink, on another podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
When I met with my focus groups, I started hearing
another story.
They said, Oh no, we want towork.
We want to work about withsomething we're passionate
about.
SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
But one young lady said to me, Tim, can I, Dr.
Tim, she said, can I tell youwhy I leave right at five?
I said, Yeah.
She said, I leave right at fivebecause I have to run over to
another job.
I don't make enough money atthis first job to pay the bills
here in LA.
And then after that second job,I have to rush over to take care
(39:43):
of my mother who has stage fourcancer.
So suddenly I'm realizing when Ihear that, oh, she does work
actually, maybe better than Ido.
But I can't stop stereotypingand maybe listen a little bit
and find out maybe there's agreat human being inside that 22
year old.
Body that I need to get to knowand trust.
And who knows, maybe they'll beleading the organization one day
(40:05):
when it's all said and done.
Tim Newman (40:07):
Yeah, and I think that comes back down to just
having informal conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Yeah, it does.
Tim Newman (40:15):
It used to be called man management by walking
around.
And I'm not talking about that.
But but just you know what?
What's going on?
What's going on with you?
And and they'll if you start theconversation, they'll they'll
tell you what's going on.
They'll tell you aboutthemselves.
Uh and you know it it's uh getget both I think both sides need
to get over whatever it is andjust start the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
Yeah, no doubt.
Tim Newman (40:39):
And then it rolls.
SPEAKER_00 (40:41):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (40:42):
Yeah.
So what what what does confidentcommunication look like for
somebody who's a Gen Z?
Because they communicate againvery different differently than
we do.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I have found in many caseswe need to teach soft skills to
them.
You talked about that as youopened the podcast.
Interpersonal skills were rarelydeveloped on a screen during the
pandemic.
They fell behind by about twoyears.
The average this is data, notinsults.
No, this is it.
Tim Newman (41:12):
Real.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
So so cognitively advanced, they're smart as a
whip, but socially andemotionally behind.
So we're gonna have to buildthose soft skills intentionally
into their life.
And by the way, it may be assimple as I want you to look me
in the eye when you talk to me.
I want you to shake my hand whenyou walk through that door, and
I'll shake yours.
And I'm gonna treat you withrespect, and I expect you to
treat me with respect.
(41:33):
Those are fundamentals, but wemay have to teach them because
they're not automaticallyhappening.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (41:40):
Yeah, the the probably probably the last two
years that I was teaching, Ialmost had to stop teaching my
content area and was almoststrictly focusing on on the soft
skills.
Because if you it doesn't matterwhat you know, if you can't
communicate, if you if you can'thave a conversation with
somebody, it it just doesn'treally matter.
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Yeah.
So so let me share one thingabout that.
Okay.
Uh as an older guy, I have hadto learn what Charles Duhig
taught years years ago, thatwhen you're interacting with
someone, you're having aconversation, or you're
communicating to them as anaudience, you need to know what
(42:19):
kind of conversation they needto have.
Yes.
It's either a practicalconversation, a social
conversation, or an emotionalconversation.
And here's how he defines that.
A practical conversationcommonly happens at work.
It's just information.
We need to transfer someinformation, not a lot of
emotion.
Here's some facts, here's thedeadline, here's the date it's
(42:41):
due, et cetera.
That's practical.
And you and I, as older guys,just got used to a lot of
practical, not much emotion.
Let's just get the job done.
Very often a younger team membermight want to have a social
conversation.
So maybe they want to get intolast weekend's party they went
to.
And I don't mean to stereotype,but let's just say that's the
(43:02):
topic.
I need to stop correcting thatit was the 15th, not the 16th,
or something like that.
That doesn't matter.
Tim Newman (43:08):
Doesn't matter, right?
SPEAKER_00 (43:09):
Yeah, they're just trying to share a social, just
enjoy it with them, laugh withthem, affirm them, say, I'm so
glad you got some refreshmenttime.
But here's the clincher.
I find that many times a Gen Zor one needs needs to have an
emotional conversation whereit's very emotional, and they
start in with facts or data, butit's not about data at all.
(43:33):
They're feeling inadequate,maybe, or they're feeling I
didn't measure up or something.
And I need to recognize that andaffirm what I can.
So I'm going to give a verypersonal illustration, Tim, on
this one.
I missed it with my own youngadult daughter.
Bethany's in her 30s, and she'sa wonderful counselor down in
(43:53):
Orlando, Florida.
Uh, just a very good therapist.
Um she is married to Ben, butthey're not parents yet.
So she and I are in the caralone together, just driving one
day, just happened to have sometime together.
She goes, Dad, I got a questionfor you.
I'm ready for a practicalconversation at this point, by
the way.
And it wasn't so Bethany goes,Dad, if you were to go see a
(44:17):
counselor about a parentingissue, would you rather go see a
counselor that was a parent orgo to see one that maybe wasn't
a parent, but they'd done alltheir research and they were
ready to go.
Thinking I was having apractical conversation.
Tim Newman (44:32):
I know what you said.
I bet I know what you said.
SPEAKER_00 (44:34):
I said, Well, all things being equal, I think I'd
go to one that was actually aparent.
So they were their feet, theygo, Oh, I've been through the
same thing, you know.
Well, Bethany was quiet andgoes, okay, didn't really say
much the rest of the drive.
We got home, she hopped out ofthe car, went into the home
first.
I pulled the car in the garage.
But when I walked inside, Icould not find her.
(44:55):
And when I walked upstairs, Ilooked in her room, and she
tears were just coming down hercheeks.
I did not realize.
I had just unaffirmed her.
I had said, Bethany, I wouldn'tchoose you, that's for sure.
I'd choose somebody that hadsome credibility.
And I just realized, holy moly,I she was having, she was
(45:18):
needing dad to say, Bethany,you're adequate.
I'd go see you.
Um I'll stop there, but I'm justsaying leaders need to know what
communication is needed in themoment and lead before they
lead.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (45:33):
It's I I'm sorry you I'm sorry you did that, but I've
done this I've done verysimilar.
I I grew up with three brothers.
So I grew up, I mean, maledominated, my mom is and was a
saint.
I'm married, and I've got twodaughters.
And I the amount of times I'vesaid things and I've gotten the
look, why would you say that?
SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
Yeah.
Tim Newman (45:54):
But it's it is what it is.
And and we learn from and thekey is to learn, hope the
audience gets it.
The key is to learn from that.
Yes.
Um and and in whatever situationit is, maybe you before you
respond, you ask a question toto get some clarity or whatever
it is, but learn from the fromthose things, just like we're
asking our students to do thesame thing.
SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
Yes, absolutely.
No doubt about it.
Tim Newman (46:17):
So Tim, where where can people find uh find you to
work with you, find out what'sgoing on with Gen Z and get more
information?
SPEAKER_00 (46:24):
Yeah, thanks for asking, Tim.
It's been a great conversation.
Well, probably the easiest wayto find me in a bunch of free
stuff is my own website,Timelmore.com, Timelmore.com.
Uh Growing Leaders is out there.
It's a maxwell nonprofit that Istarted uh over 20 years ago.
You could get curriculum forteaching soft skills to young
people.
(46:44):
But um I would say too, yeah, Iwould love to help with Gen Z if
you've got Gen Z and you'remanaging it uh somewhere,
somehow.
Uh my book is called The FutureBegins with Z.
Nine Strategies to Let It LeadGeneration Z as they disrupt the
workplace.
And it's on Amazon or or oranywhere good books are sold.
But um that might be a goodguidebook for you to use just to
(47:07):
make sure you're getting itright along the way.
Tim Newman (47:09):
Tim, it's a great, it's a great guidebook.
It's a great guidebook.
I yeah.
I'll just be honest with you.
Not only did I read the book umwhen we went to see the kids for
Thanksgiving, we listened to thebook all the way back from
Thanksgiving, too.
So um it's there there's there'sso much gold in there, so so
(47:30):
many good good ideas and andvalue.
Can't thank you enough fornumber one for writing the book,
but I also can't thank youenough for for spending some
time with us and and and ggiving us the the this
information that hopefullypeople can go and start to do
and change things and lead Gen Zbetter starting today, not next
week, not tomorrow, but today.
(47:52):
That's start happening today.
SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
Absolutely.
I'm with you all the way.
They will make us better leadersif we'll let them.
Thanks, Tim.
I appreciate it.
Tim Newman (48:00):
Tim, again, thanks so much.
Take care, and we'll talk to yousoon.
Be sure to visitspeakingwithconfidence
podcast.com to get your freeebook, Top 21 Challenges for
Public Speakers, Now toOvercome.
You can also register for theforum for public speaking.
Always remember your voice has apower changer.
We'll talk to you next time.
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