November 3, 2025 • 46 mins
Have you ever wondered if charisma is something you’re born with, or if it can be built—and more importantly, how it impacts your confidence and effectiveness as a communicator? In this episode of Speaking with Confidence, I sit down with John Ball, a keynote and presentation coach who’s spent years helping speakers, coaches, and leaders boost their influence from competent to captivating. Today, we dig into the journey of finding your authentic voice as a speaker, the joys and challenges of adding humor to presentations, and the real value of showing up with warmth and confidence, wherever you are in the world.
John Ball brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table—not only as the host of The Present Influence Podcast and co-host of the Coaching Clinic podcast, but also as a professional speaker on topics like personal mastery and leadership communication. His global perspective as someone who’s lived in both the UK and Spain and spent years as a flight attendant puts him in a unique position to discuss connecting with different cultures, and how traveling has shaped his approach to communication and coaching.
In this episode, we cover:
- How traveling and working abroad expands your communication skills and comfort zones
- Using humor and warmth as universal connectors across cultures
- Why every speaker should try stand-up comedy at least once
- The difference between charisma and charm—and how to spot “fake” charisma
- Techniques to build genuine charisma (even if you’re not naturally extroverted)
- The process of testing and refining stories for presentations
- Emotional leadership and the responsibility you hold as a speaker
- Why presence and vulnerability matter more than perfection
- How to avoid charisma killers like overthinking and ego
- The importance of living with intention and making positive choices in how you show up
- Stage time as the single most effective way to improve your communication
- Storytelling tips: focusing on transformation, emotional flow, and audience engagement
If you’re ready to take your communication from competent to captivating—and want to put more humor, warmth, and charisma into every conversation that counts—this episode is packed with stories, strategies, and encouragement to get you started. Ready to step up, lighten up, and speak with more confidence than ever before? Listen now, and let’s grow together.
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
Speaking With Confidence
Formula for Public Speaking
Facebook
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Newman (00:09):
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead to real
results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor, turn
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on a
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is John Ball.
John is a keynote andpresentation coach who mostly
(00:32):
works with professionalspeakers, coaches, and
leadership teams, helping theircommunication go from competent
to captivating.
He's the host of the PresentInfluence Podcast, the
professional speaking show, foract for experts who want to
create impact, influence, andinspiration with their talks.
John also co-hosts the CoachingClinic podcast with his good
(00:53):
friend Angie.
John's a keynote speaker whotalks on topics like personal
mastery and bridging theleadership communication skills
gap.
He also publishes a small butpunchy LinkedIn newsletter
related to his podcast.
He's a bit cheeky and likes tojoke around.
He's got stories and lots ofthem.
He says he's not going to shareany not say for work ones, but
(01:13):
hopefully we can uh persuade himto share some good ones.
John, well welcome to a show.
This is going to be so muchfun.
You know, I've got to do that.
That's quite an introduction.
Thank you.
Well, you know, it's it it it'sit's what you do, and and I I
love I love the fun part.
Um I I like it when people youknow don't take yourselves too
seriously.
And one of the things I didreally like about in your bio,
(01:35):
and I and I joke about a lot, isyou say you have a face for
audio content and a body forbirthday cake.
That's me.
And I laugh because I tellpeople I've got a face for radio
and a voice for silent movies.
And yet you hate doing this.
Yeah, and and that's that'sthat's the fun part.
I I I think yeah, I I you knowpeople take themselves a little
(01:57):
bit too seriously and and andeverything um ha has to be, you
know, lock you know, buttoned upand locked in and very
professional.
And we're gonna talk about thata little bit, but I I I just
can't do it.
I you know, it's life's tooshort.
Let's have some fun in in thethings we're doing.
John Ball (02:11):
Yeah, yeah.
There's enough enough troublesin the world without us needing
to add to them or or take it alltoo seriously.
We a bit of laughter now andagain is much better.
Oh, absolutely.
Tim Newman (02:22):
So, you know, you you're you're from the UK, but
you're currently living inSpain.
That's right.
Um talk a little bit about howliving and traveling around the
world has has influenced the wayyou show up as a speaker and
and a coach.
Because you know, here in theUnited States, you know, a lot
of us we we don't do that to thetype of traveling that um
people from other countries do.
(02:43):
So kind of give give us alittle bit of that background
for us.
John Ball (02:47):
Well, I I feel like I've been very fortunate in my
life to have uh I kind of luckedinto becoming a flight
attendant for 12 years.
And uh it feels almostaccidental more than anything
else.
Um, but I thoroughly enjoyedit.
And uh so I got to see theworld and work around the world
in different environments aswell.
And more than anything, Ilearned, you know, as much as
(03:09):
cultures can be different,sometimes even very different to
what we are used to, there arealways ways to connect with
people.
There's always ways to makepeople laugh.
If you can share a language,sometimes even we can't, if you
can just be understood in someway, there's always ways to
communicate and connect withpeople and to to unite.
So I do think that that's oneof the things that definitely
(03:32):
global travel has taught me overthe years.
And I don't I have thispersonal philosophy that
wherever I am can be home if Ichoose for it to be home.
Even if I'm in a hotel roomsomewhere, I can choose to have
that.
I feel at home here, I can beat home so I don't get homesick
when I travel around.
And so I can feel comfortableand confident wherever I am and
(03:55):
connect with people around me,that there's always
opportunities for that too.
So um travel has opened open mymind in many ways, um, but it's
also expanded my horizons forwhat's possible and for my
comfort levels to be able tofeel like I can fit in or at
(04:15):
least feel comfortable justabout anywhere in the world.
Tim Newman (04:19):
Yeah, and and how does how do you find humor that
that really kind of is somethingthat's relatable no matter
where you are, that also helpsyou know build that that comfort
level?
John Ball (04:30):
Yeah.
Sometimes it is just aboutplayfulness more than telling
jokes.
Right.
And and so it isn't necessarilythat I need to do a stand-up
routine for you know, if I'm inJapan and no one's gonna
understand it necessarily.
Um, it's not necessarily that.
But if I'm just a littlelighthearted about things, a bit
playful, I'm smiling, I'm warm,I show warmth uh to other
(04:52):
people, that they feel that theythey can do that as well.
And I know there sometimes theysaid that some cultures don't
necessarily feel like they arethat warm.
And yet my experience hasalways been that you will find
the people who are when you showthose things for yourself.
People, the people are lookingto connect, people are looking
for those opportunities.
So showing up with warmth and adesire to connect and to
(05:14):
understand each other and to uhhave new experiences, learn from
new people is alwaysopportunities that feel like
they always feel like growth anddevelopment for me.
I always have something tolearn from others, and I hope
they find something to learnfrom me too.
Tim Newman (05:28):
Yeah, and and I I I think that's so important, you
know, to be able to learn fromothers, you have to be open to
doing that too.
You have to be open to um to tothe way other other people see
things, the way other peopleconnect, the way uh the the way
that they um uh learn, listen,and and communicate.
That's and I think that's oneof the biggest ways that that uh
(05:50):
biggest ways to learn is isjust by being open to it, you
know.
And so then it just becomesnatural.
I mean, there's I I thinkthere's a way that you know we
can be very intentional about itand there's times for that, but
there's also times to justbeing open to to to letting
things happen and learning thatway as well.
John Ball (06:08):
Yeah.
I think certain certain s umcertain gestures and facial
expressions are pretty universaland we can plant a and that
those are the things that tendto give people the initial
impression of what we're like asa person anyway.
And so if we establish thosethings, the language issue is
less problematic because westill tend to like people who we
feel we like, even if we don'tfully understand each other.
Tim Newman (06:32):
Right, right.
And you know, you you said whenyou when we first started this
that it's not about necessarilytelling jokes all the time, but
you do do some open mic comedy,and which I think is which I
think is awesome.
I I don't know that I couldever do that because I I don't
think I'm funny, but uh but wwhy do you believe every speaker
should should try to stand upat least once?
John Ball (06:54):
Um I think because it is so scary.
It was something that scared meso much, and I wasn't sure I
could do it.
There's all that's always thatthing of is what comes out of my
head that might be funny to me,are other people gonna find
that funny as well?
And we don't know, andsometimes we're a bit afraid of
finding out.
We don't really we don't reallywant to put ourselves in that
situation.
(07:15):
Um but there are there aresomewhat safe ways to do it, and
and I often will tell the storyof like I'll tell you about my
very first ever time doing openmic.
Um, I'd been putting it off forforever, but just didn't want
to do it, but I finally gotinspired by a guest on my show
um to go to go for it, to do it.
And she's been doing comedy foryears and she still does open
(07:36):
mic nights just to just for fun,just to connect with people and
to try different things out.
Right.
Well, if you can still want todo that all this time, I should
at least give it a go because Idon't know what I'm missing.
And so when I went there, Ijust gave myself permission to
bomb.
It's okay if I bomb, that'sfine.
I can do it.
Success here is just me gettingup on that stage, right?
(07:59):
Being scared to get up on thatstage.
If it all goes horribly wrong,fine, it goes horribly wrong,
but I will have still done it.
I've put myself forward, I'veput myself at least into the
situation where things couldhappen.
Now, a few people who are onbefore me did bomb, which uh, so
I was pretty lucky that the barwas set low, thankfully.
(08:20):
So but they it just made mefeel more comfortable.
It's like, okay, it's okay tobomb.
Nothing happened to them, theythey survived it, they come off
the stage, they're stillsmiling.
One of them was even aprofessional comedian who just
unfortunately bombed thatparticular night.
And um, and so I get up onstage, I did my act.
I think I have to say, I thinkI got the most laughs of the
night, which is great.
(08:40):
Uh, but it was it was amazing.
Even if that hadn't happened, Iwas just so so desperate to get
back up and do it again.
But the challenge of all ofthat, it was so confronting, and
also having to take parts ofyour life and put them into a
context that finds the funny andthat finds the humor in life is
a great reframe.
(09:01):
Is a um, whilst we shouldn'tuse comedy, stand-up comedy for
our own therapy as such, it doeshave it does have some effects
like that because you are pushedinto reframing things in your
life that where there may havebeen some pain or trauma, even
as a communicator, I think it'sessential that you be able to at
least add some lightness, somehumor into your communication.
(09:22):
Right.
And unless you really neverfind anything funny or never
laugh at things, you canprobably find a way to be funny.
You just need to know the righttools or setups to do that and
create some material.
And not everything's gonna geta great laugh, but some stuff
will.
If you can at least get somelaughs or chuckles now and again
and a talk or a presentationthat take away, like especially
(09:43):
if it's a serious present, ifyou're presenting um end of end
of year results and stuff andthey're not being great, it's
gonna be a bit of a seriousmeeting.
But if you can add a bit oflightness to that, that's gonna
cut through the tension, it'sgonna put people at ease, and
it's gonna make you seem like amuch more engaging and
charismatic leader as well.
Tim Newman (10:02):
Yeah, it's I I I love that you said that too, you
know, for for any number ofdifferent reasons.
First you know, first the wholeidea of of do it scared, do do
it, do it, um, I wouldn't say doit petrified, but but yeah, do
it do it, do it do it aspetrified as you as you are,
right?
You know, yeah.
You know, I you know I youknow, you if you think about all
(10:23):
the times that we do otherthings scared, you know,
whatever it is, you know, I'mI'm married now, so I would
never do this now, but when whenI was dating, going up and
talking to a to a woman, uh, orasking for a date, or you know,
whatever.
We do all those other thingsscared or or with with
trepidation.
Um this is something that likeyou said, nothing what's the
(10:47):
word what's what's the worstthat's gonna happen compared to
what's the best thing that'sgonna happen.
You know, you do an open micnight, okay.
The worst thing that's gonnahappen is you're gonna buy them.
The best thing that's gonnahappen is people are gonna be
laughing their heads off for forfor maybe for days because
they're gonna go back and thinkabout, oh, remember what John
said?
Remember that joke John toldwhat what whatever it is.
So, you know so do do thingswhen when we're when we're
(11:09):
scared or when we're we havesome anxiety over it, and stop
thinking about what's the worstthing that's gonna happen and
start thinking about what's thewhat what the what that best
thing is.
John Ball (11:18):
Yeah, if if everything in life, if we always
knew everything in life wouldgo well, there'd never be any
real challenge in life, wouldthere?
There'd be nothing, no fear,nothing to overcome, no growth
because of that as well.
So we do grow from these sortsof challenges that we can
present ourselves.
And so, you know, right, sowhat's the worst that could
happen?
Because um probably the worstthat could really happen is that
(11:40):
things don't go the way youwant them to, and you get in
your head about it and startmaking yourself up about it.
That's that's something thatpeople just tend to do.
But if you can lower the stakesfor yourself and say, hey,
look, it's no big deal.
My I lowered the stakes formyself, it's no big deal.
If I bomb I bomb, but I've doneit, I've done the thing that
I've been so afraid of for sucha long time.
(12:01):
That really is a thing.
Going up and talking to that umbeautiful person who you think
is very attractive.
Um that might be scary becausethere's always that fear of
rejection not being accepted,and rejection stings.
But again, what's the worstthat could happen?
You're no worse off if nothinghappens than you were before.
It's just it's just theconversation that's going on in
(12:24):
our head is can either be in it,can either be empowering or
disempowering.
It tends to be for most peopledisempowering oh you suck,
you're not a good bell, you'renot attractive enough, or they
didn't mind, or whatever isgoing on for you.
You weren't funny enough, youdidn't nobody laughed.
We beat ourselves up.
Exactly.
Tim Newman (12:40):
And you know, as as I as I think about it, um when I
asked my wife to marry me, sheshe told me she had to think
about it.
You know, so you think you youso you think about rejection.
And when I asked her dad, hesaid he told me no.
So I mean it's you you yougotta you gotta laugh.
I mean, I I've I've got allkinds of stories about being
(13:00):
rejected, so you you just becomenumb to it and and you But it
wasn't the end of the story,right?
It no, it's not the end of thestory, right?
It's just like just likeanything else.
And you know, what one of theother things that I I really
like that you mentioned was thewhole idea of charisma.
And is is charisma something,you know.
I I I talk to people, somepeople say charisma can be
coached, it can be built.
(13:21):
Others say that it's you eitherhave it or you don't.
I'm I'm in the in the in thecamp of you can develop
charisma.
Charisma.
John Ball (13:29):
What what do you think?
What are you thinking?
What are your thoughts on that?
100%.
I think you can developcharisma.
Some people do have it verynatural, seem to have it very
naturally, and that's great whenthey do.
I think some of the mainelements of charisma, especially
as a speaker or presenter, uh,are really just uh it comes from
various research.
One part of it being fromVanessa Van Edwards, who has
(13:51):
some amazing research and bookson this topic, but just being on
stage and portraying thequalities of warmth and
competence.
So if you come across assomeone who has warmth about
you, and someone who is likeit's relatable.
So we like people who are warm,not people who are frosty cold,
and we like people who seem toknow what they're talking about
and have some level ofcompetence with that.
If you can show that you havethose things, you've all you're
(14:13):
already a big part of the waythere.
But I think people tend tothink of charisma in terms of uh
you have to be always be thelife and soul of the party.
You always end up being, Ithink it gets very tied to an
extroversion.
Yes, uh, and they're not thesame thing.
And I do think charisma can belearned and can be applied in
particular situations, maybe notevery part of your life, but
(14:34):
ultimately there are, you know,it was interesting to me that,
and I'll just say this so manypeople who do get into talking
about charisma get into itbecause um their initial
interest in it is dating and andgetting laid, right?
That that's that's why a lot ofpeople who talk about this or
even teach it get into it in thefirst place.
(14:56):
And that wasn't the case forme.
Um, it wasn't something that Ithought I need to get more
charisma so I can, you know, getand be more successful dating
or anything like that.
That wasn't really the case.
It was more a case of beinginterested in what makes people
influential, what makes peoplepersuasive, that I've been
fascinated in for years andyears, and um and and starting
(15:16):
to pull that apart andunderstand.
I want to get into the what arethe principles uh that make
somebody um more appealing, morepersuasive, more attractive,
more charismatic.
And it is a lot of it is fromknowing who you are and owning
it, being okay with your ownflaws, your own faults, being
(15:38):
aware of what they are, beingunashamed of them, unapologetic
for living your life, owningyour mistakes, admitting to them
and showing that you've learnedfrom them, um, but also being
interested in other people, notputting your ego above them.
There's so many differentelements of this.
There's more as well, but theseare some things that are at the
heart of charisma.
(15:59):
You know, there's people whoreally show an interest in you
who ask you questions, they justfeel really warm and you just
want to keep answering theirquestions.
That's charisma.
That's uh something you youremember them, you feel like, oh
wow, they were nice, they werereally interested, and you
probably get a warm feeling fromthem.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (16:17):
Yeah, and and and I I I love that you you said that
that you number one is thatyou're showing interest in other
people, because that's that'sthat right there to me is is
something that really uh buildsuh builds a connection as well.
Even if you're you're talkingabout something um that you may
not necessarily agree with, butif you if you've got if if
you're showing that that personthat that you're interested in
(16:38):
what they're saying, um thatthat maybe they may be the most
important person in the room,that's something that's gonna
really build that thatconnection as as well.
Yeah.
John Ball (16:48):
Yeah, that that's that quote that's often
attributed to Maya Angelou.
She may have said it, but shedidn't originate it.
That people uh won't alwaysremember what you say, but
they'll always remember how youmade them feel.
Right.
And um, and I think that'svery, very true.
It's like it is aboutgenerating emotion in people,
feeling, connection.
Uh, and that could only comefrom genuine interest.
(17:11):
I think some some elements ofcharisma can be faked.
I'm not gonna pretend that theycan't, and you should watch out
for that because it's likethere is just evidence that um
sociopaths, psychopaths uhunderstand these principles and
are able to um act within themand come across as people who
have charisma.
But if they have charisma, butthey're also showing sort of
(17:34):
dark traits, they're alsoshowing maybe they're a bit
bullying, maybe they're superdominant, maybe they always need
a bit of praise and uh support,maybe they are always putting
other people down to feelbetter, they don't like any kind
of criticism.
These are all, those are thered flags that will say, yeah,
all right, this is this ispotentially somebody who might
be a bit uh bit sociopathic,they might be at least a bit
very narcissistic.
(17:54):
Yes.
These are dark, uh what theycall dark triad traits um that
you really want to uh just flagfor yourself because they could
indicate that that person is nota good person, but they're
probably not that genuine.
They are pretending thecharisma is an act.
Tim Newman (18:09):
Exactly.
And and and the the those typesof things will eventually show
their heads, right?
I mean I mean, if if um maymaybe not to you that uh
initially, but maybe this thatperson could have done it to
somebody else, and then they seethat they're treating you that
way, and then they say, uh, nowI now I really see what this
(18:30):
person is about and what thisperson is doing.
Um and uh and I think that'sone of the things that really
kind of separates is charmingcharisma, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I think charisma is is is moreis is obviously more genuine.
Charm is an act.
John Ball (18:47):
Yeah, it can be.
My my I remember my grandmothersaying to me when I was a
child, beware, beware ofcharming men, she said.
Uh she was she was quite rightas well.
It's something to at least payattention to because it could
indicate that there's sometoxicity beneath that, but it
doesn't always so it is justsomething to something to be
aware of if someone's butteringyou up, uh complimenting you all
(19:09):
the time on those kinds ofthings, love bombing you, it's
called um this and a lot of thisstuff ties into I'm I'm very
interested in cults.
I don't know if you've everlooked into um cults and how
they operate, not just religiouscults, any kind of cult,
personality cults, all of that.
Um they operate on the samekind of principles.
These are just like you canhave cults of one person, small
group cults, uh cults ofpersonality, cults of religion,
(19:30):
uh, but they operate on the sameprinciples and and they're all
kind of controlling, bullying,um power, power positioning.
And um, when you understandthose sorts of principles, um,
very powerful.
I think it's good for anyone toknow that because I think
knowledge does give you a it'slike uh like getting your shots
is a bit of a bit of immunity,not a guarantee, but it's some
(19:53):
immunity from these things thatyou're more likely to recognize
when you're confronted withthem.
Tim Newman (19:58):
And how does that r really relate to the whole idea
of knowing yourself?
Because you you mentioned that,and I'm I'm a big believer in
we we here, at least here in theStates, we we don't really
teach people how to criticallythink about themselves and and
really get to know who they areand what what they're all about.
How does that how does thatrelate to that?
John Ball (20:21):
I I've I've definitely been in periods of my
own life where I haven't reallyfelt like I knew who I was or
what I was about.
I think most people canprobably relate to that at some
point.
And and I no longer think thatit's uh a journey so much to to
uncover that as more of adecision of that you you you
kind of decide who you want tobe showing up as in life, what's
(20:42):
important to you, what reallymatters, and uh how you want to
live and experience your ownlife.
Do you want a life that hasgood positive challenge in it?
Uh, or do you want a life thatthen just kind of rolls along
massive comfort level, no realchallenges, just try and get
through it, get to the end of itas as comfortably as possible.
(21:04):
Uh, you know, I I choose tohave a life that has good
positive challenge in it.
Yes.
And uh so I create a lot ofthose challenges for myself
because I don't I I've tried thecoasting, I've tried the smooth
sailing stuff, and it's boring.
Boring.
And you don't feel like you'rereally getting anywhere, and you
don't feel like you really knowyourself.
So I think until you do startchallenging yourself and
(21:26):
interacting with other people,you don't really know how you're
how you want to be, who youwant to be showing up as in this
world.
It is making those decisions.
Who do I want to be showing upas in this life?
How do I want to experience mylife?
Because I can either beaffecting people positively or I
can be infecting them withnegativity and other things as
(21:47):
well.
So, you know, the there'sreally the the choices that we
make define define who we arerather than some X marks the
spot treasure hunt to try andfind the real you.
It really is the choices anddecisions that you want to make
of how you want to show up inyour life and how you want to,
how you want others toexperience you as well, as much
(22:08):
as how you want to experiencethings for yourself.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (22:11):
And you know, I I think back you know, I've I've
had a couple uh you know periodsof my life, or more than a
couple, let's just say a fewperiods of my life where I've
I've kind of fallen into thatcomfort, you know, and uh not
growing and not not doing thethings that I knew I wanted to
do or were or getting to theplaces I knew I wanted to get.
(22:36):
And one of the things that Ifound with me is you said it,
negativity starts to to to creepin, and I and I'm not the
positive, you know, person forother people that I've that I I
want to be, and you can I cansee the negativity and how I'm
treating other people and it itsometimes it it has taken me a
little bit to to get out of thatto to move forward.
(22:59):
But understanding where we areand being able to to move
forward, I think is is reallyimportant as well.
John Ball (23:08):
There's uh there's a simple principle in personal
development of cause and effect.
Uh you may have come across itbefore, but uh this is about
living what how we live.
Do we live at cause or do welive in in effect?
Right.
And so living at cause ischoosing the path of your life,
choosing how you want to showup, how you want to be
experiencing your life.
Living in effect is having thatall decided for you.
I mean, you get caught up intraffic in the morning, you're
(23:30):
in a bad mood for the rest ofthe day, someone else has
affected your mood, your and howyou experience your life for
that day.
World events piling onto you.
You get we can easily getburied under all of that and the
negativity.
And yet we could choosesomething else.
We don't have to be buriedunder that.
Right.
We can make another choice forourselves or like, well, yeah,
(23:51):
there's plenty of uhunhappiness, plenty of sadness,
tragic things going on in theworld.
But does us being miserablehelp that?
Does us be miserable or are wekind of just adding to the
problem?
Whereas perhaps we could bebeing a bit more being of
service in some way.
We use that service is justputting a smile on someone's
face or helping someone out ordoing a random act of kindness
(24:13):
or whatever it could be.
But as soon as we start to moveinto the service mindset for
others, that it's not all aboutus and our fulfillment and our
gratification, then I think wehave much more possibility to
live a more fulfilled life thanif if we're all only concerned
about what we're getting out ofthe deal.
Right.
Tim Newman (24:31):
And you know, d doing what we do, you know, we
we talk about it's it's notabout us all the time, right?
And especially from a speakingperspective, it's not about us.
You're I think you're the firstperson that's mentioned that
it's not about us ever.
Yeah, right.
And that's but that that'sthat's that's right.
I mean, what when we're whenwe're dealing with other people,
(24:52):
it's just it's not about us.
It's about us adding value andpointing to other people and and
and and that sort of thing.
And and I think that'simportant for the audience to to
get and grasp and think on thatfor for a few minutes.
John Ball (25:05):
It's it's about us to only to the extent of um the
decisions that we're making ofhow we want to show up and and
how we want other people to feelwhen they're interacting with
us.
Like what are we aiming at,what are we actually trying to
put out there into the world?
If we're not conscious aboutthat, then it's just whatever
happens to be going on that day.
Whereas if we're we're moreconscious about that, there's a
(25:25):
good chance that people aregonna feel much, much happier,
much and that they're gonna wantto interact with us more if
we're showing up as a uh withhigh value, with good energy,
uh, with positivity toward them,with warmth at least, or
understanding, compassion, allthose good things, empathy, all
the things we hope and want andhave people will have and show
towards each other.
(25:47):
Um it's hard to deal with lifewhen we when we encounter people
who aren't like that orsituations that aren't like
that.
But it's like when you've madethose decisions for yourself, it
does then just become abouteveryone else.
It's like you're you're doingthis for for them, serving other
people, right?
Because that's where you willfind greater fulfillment
ultimately.
If you're only trying to fillyour own bucket, um you there's
(26:10):
never there's there's nevergoing to be enough.
We see it over and over again.
It's like uh there's only somuch fame you can have, there's
only so much money you can have.
Um, and I see a lot of peoplewho do have like high levels of
success in one particular areaoften will start to focus on
philanthropy and helping otherpeople because that's where they
really start to find meaning inthemselves in their lives.
Tim Newman (26:33):
Exactly.
And and that that that's aperfect, perfect, perfect point.
And and I think you mayappreciate this more than some.
You know, when when we came onand we got on, yes, I was around
I'm doing great, I'm doingawesome.
Right.
And I say that all the time,whether that's whether that's on
I'm really doing great anddoing awesome or sarcastically.
(26:55):
And whoever I'm talking tonever really knows.
Because it number one, I don'tknow what's going on in that
person's life.
And it maybe if it's a smile,maybe if there's an uplifting
things, make and I could be thatperson, that's great.
And they don't need to knowthat I got cut off on the way
into work.
They don't need to know that Igot an argument with with my
(27:17):
kids or my wife.
They don't they don't need it'sit's not it's not that.
Let's let's be that positiveperson.
And now the people within myinner circle know whether I'm
being sarcastic or not.
John Ball (27:26):
Right.
Tim Newman (27:28):
But but the general public that I mean let's let's
be uplifting and positive andand and and bring that value to
them.
And you know, it's it's bestday ever.
And wow, good energy out there.
John Ball (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, that there's uh a guy, uh, one of the
first guys I started learningfrom in personal development,
it's kind of not he's not reallythat there's all sorts of
problems there, so I'm not gonnaname names or anything like
that.
But one thing he said uh wouldsay a lot that stuck with me.
Uh his answer would be feelinggood for no good reason.
I feel good, yeah.
No good reason, just feel good.
It's like great, we should bemore like that in our lives.
(28:00):
He's like happiness isn'tdoesn't have to be this
conditional thing.
Feeling good doesn't have to beconditional on whether the
weather's good that day orwhether the the news has been
okay or whether your health isall right.
It's a choice, it's a lifedecision that we have to try and
keep making for ourselves.
And that's also then what arewe putting out there as well?
It's like, well, we can feelgood for no good reason.
(28:20):
This isn't about, you know,there's some people I do know,
some people will say, Oh, well,you should just be honest about
it, you know, if you're notfeeling great and someone says,
How are you?
You should tell them that no, Idon't think I don't necessarily
think that's the case.
If there's some, if they're aconfidant, if there's someone
who you feel comfortable sharingthat stuff with, and then
that's the right kind ofcircumstance and situation.
But otherwise, I think put outgood energy, put out yeah, feel
(28:42):
feeling good, feeling great.
How are you today?
Um, wherever we can, if we canspread a bit of joy and
happiness, we make the world abit of a better place.
Tim Newman (28:50):
Yeah, but and and take let's take that a step
further, because even if you'renot and you're sharing that with
somebody who who you don't knowor or is not in, like you said,
in that confident or innercircle, if you start acting that
way, you're gonna start feelingthat way too.
Right.
John Ball (29:04):
Uh natural, natural empathy, natural connection,
mirror nuance, and all that kindof thing.
Yeah, yeah.
We st we start to we start toget into the states of the
people around us, and and soit's very easy to be pulled into
emotional states by otherpeople.
So uh this is again taking thatresponsibility.
Where do you want to be leadingthem emotionally?
Do you want to pull them intoyour negativity as well?
(29:25):
Or do you do you want to beable to do that?
Right, yeah, it probably does.
But but it's uh it is it isthose kinds of decisions of uh
do you want to pull do you wantto pull someone down or lift
them up in this moment?
And um, we don't alwaysnecessarily more we practice
lifting them up in that moment,the more likely we'll do it off
offhand.
So I don't think there'sanything negative or bad around
(29:47):
you know, someone says, How areyou?
I think I'm wonderful, I feelgreat.
Uh but I do think the sort ofthe flaccid in between responses
are probably the worst ones tome.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I'm right.
No.
No energy to that.
There's no how am I supposed toinfer from this?
Yeah.
Tim Newman (30:05):
Exactly.
And and you know, I I I I lovethis this this part of the
conversation.
And it all revolves around thatthat whole this whole idea of
charisma again, but how do wehow do we kill our charisma?
Because I mean we as if we'resitting in an audience, we we
see it.
(30:25):
We I mean we we see it almostimmediately, right?
But but what what are somecharisma killers?
John Ball (30:32):
Overthinking is probably one of the worst ones
getting in our heads about stuffbecause uh as soon as we stop
being fully present with anaudience or with anyone that
we're with, then we are alreadycreating a barrier between them.
Um so if we you know if if wemess up or make a mistake, if we
can't laugh about it orimprovise our way around it,
(30:52):
just dance, dance around it andcarry on.
If we let it take us out orsay, oh, I can't, I can't
continue.
I've made a mistake now, uh,we're gonna kill our charisma as
well.
As soon as soon as the audiencefeels like anyone's on the way
down in any way, shape, or form,you're done.
Your charisma's dead.
You know, you're not gonna beable to recover that as well.
And you've seen people unravelemotionally on stage before now
(31:16):
because they've had personalissues going on.
And well, far better to maybejust cancel the gig or get
someone else up there than to goput yourself through that in
front of an audience of howevermany people as well who get to
who get to watch the unraveling.
Um, but you know, there's a lotof things, you know, just in
how we relate to people, if yourego gets in the way, if you
(31:37):
start thinking you're abovepeople and you're talking at
them rather than with them,there's a very different energy
to that.
So we want to be connecting,trying to talk, especially like
the situation, a situation likethis.
You might be doing a podcast ora YouTube thing on your on your
own.
Um, so you're just talking to acamera, and you still need to
have some charisma.
So you need to imagine thatyou're connecting with whoever
(31:58):
is on the other side of thatcamera.
You might really want to thenimagine one of your good friends
or maybe even your best friendis on the other side of the
camera or there, that you aretalking, giving the talk or the
presentation or whatever you'redoing to them.
Yeah, and maybe only to them,but it's for everyone as well.
Yeah, so those are those aresome of the things that can can
really start to kill and damageyour charisma if you let them.
Tim Newman (32:22):
Yeah, and and the that your last point, I I
resemble that remark.
I I I do I do obviously I dothe the an interview podcast and
then I do a a solo episode oncea week too.
And I I hope that I'm gettingbetter at it, but you know, to
just talking into the camera bymyself, not not being able to
(32:44):
see interaction, it's very, verydifficult for me.
Because I'm I'm I'm somebodywho as a recovering college
professor, I you know, teaching,I can see if I've lost some
almost immediately and I can Ican you know get back on track.
But you know, doing a andthey're only 10 to 15 minutes,
but doing a 10 to 15 minute, youknow, teaching lesson with no
(33:07):
interaction, no facialexpressions or nothing, for me
is it's oh it's it's like death.
Because you know, and um I'mI'm I think I'm getting better
at it, but it's it's it's it'shard because I I don't truly
know until after I you know putit out there and I start getting
feedback, you know, from fromthe audience or uh, you know,
(33:30):
again, my inner circle whosometimes I'll I'll send it to
them and say, you know, telltell tell me before I post this.
You know, those types ofthings.
But but it's it's hard for me.
John Ball (33:39):
It's something to develop over time.
And I don't think we should betoo too harsh on ourselves if
we're working on that skill anddeveloping it.
I don't I don't know that Icouldn't be, I'm sure I could be
better at it than I am.
You know, it's like there'salways room for growth and
development.
Um, you know, even people whomay have may feel like they have
mastery in this area, if youever feel like you get to a
place where you have nothing tolearn, I think you're only gonna
(34:01):
damage your own potential to bebetter than you are right now.
Because realistically, I thinkif you're not better six months
from now or 12 months from nowthan you are now, you're not
growing, you're not developing.
And if you and if you're notgrowing, what are you doing?
Are you stagnating at best?
Tim Newman (34:17):
Right.
And especially doing what wedo.
I I think it's important thatour audience sees us growing and
doing doing the things to getbetter.
100%.
John Ball (34:26):
100%.
No, there's something somepeople maybe not won't maybe
wouldn't feel comfortableleaving up like early episodes
of podcasts or old YouTubevideos.
I'll leave it all out therebecause I I I I want people to
be able to look at step one ofthe journey and then look at
step or 250 of the journey andand see some growth, see some
(34:48):
change there.
It's like, oh, isn't it?
This isn't it doesn't seem likethe same guy.
Well, that should be the case.
There should have been thatlevel of growth and development.
But none of us want to have togo through you know the dip and
um have to deal with the uh theprocess of getting through the
different levels of competenceuntil it's more unconscious
competence for us, and we canjust do things naturally until
(35:09):
it's like within us and we'veembodied it.
Um, but that takes a long time.
And most of us don't want to gothrough the process.
We just want the uh instantfix, the instant gratification,
and yeah, that's uh plug intothe matrix and download it all
and now I can do it.
I know kung fu, you know?
Tim Newman (35:25):
Yeah, and I mean and that's not really how how it
works, but yeah, how how do youpersonally test and refine
stories before bringing them onstage or or working with a
client?
John Ball (35:35):
Oh boy, um stories are interesting.
It does depend on the kind ofstory, um, personal stories
particularly.
Um I I do really look to uhmake sure that I understand what
the transformation point is inthe story, what the does the
story fulfill the purpose ofwhat it's going to be there for?
And do I have better storiesdifferent than maybe my own or
(35:57):
maybe other people's?
Do I have better stories thatillustrate this before I put a
story into a talk?
Um, you know, if it'sstorytelling competition, that's
a little bit different.
But right, um, but for puttingsomething into a talk is that
there has to be a purpose forthe story.
So it's there to illustrate apoint.
It maybe is there to help uhshow a journey of
transformation.
And if it's my owntransformation, um then I'm
(36:19):
gonna look to you know tell thestory as concisely as possible,
but still make it a journey,still make it a story.
And so when I'm constructingthat, yeah, the trans key
transformation point, the thejump off point, like um, I may
even stop a story sometimesbefore I get to the
transformation point and comeback to it later with the
transformation continuously.
(36:39):
Oh screen uh because it it'sthose, it's like the hooks that
you start to put into a talk oryou know, if you're gonna open
your talk up with a story, youmight not close it until the
finish of your talk becauseyou're keeping that mental tab
open for people in their brains.
The the story constructionitself is really just to make
sure it makes logical sense.
You may have to condensetimelines, that's really
(37:01):
important to think.
Take out it's like killingthere's an expression kill your
darlings.
You probably have to take outall the stuff that you might
want to put in there.
Yes.
So you might first of all tellit the way you might tell it to
a friend or to a loved one, uh,but then you have to condense it
from there.
And so you might have to killyour darlings, take out some of
the stuff you like, just to havethe story be more punchy, more
(37:23):
concise, more impactful.
But there should be anemotional flow to the story as
well.
Because if they if there's noemotional buy-in from your
audience, um, the story is goingto have less impact for them as
well.
So you want them to be able toconnect in with your story
because what happens when wetell a story is that people
start to visualize it generally.
Not everyone's good withvisualization, but most people
(37:45):
will be putting themselves intoit.
You know, it's like the theyput imagining themselves, all
right, oh, maybe think of asituation I've had like that, or
how I would react in thatsituation.
They're starting to picturewhat that situation would look
like in their mind's eye.
And so that way there's likethey're playing it almost like a
film.
They're starting to see thestory for themselves.
So it has to flow and it has tomake sense, and it has to
(38:06):
remove any extraneous detail.
Um, it needs to be told inmostly in the present tense.
You might flash back to pasttense at some points, but as the
story, tell the story as it'shappening so that they it's um
you know an experience that theyhave right now with you.
But more than anything, I sayit should have some emotional
(38:27):
impact, and you need to decidewhat you want that to be.
And you know, I generally takethe attitude of I want people
to, I don't necessarily alwaysneed them to be laughing when I
tell a story.
I'm probably gonna put humorinto it because that's my style
of doing things.
But sometimes I'll put humorinto it to make a bigger impact
for something more dramatic orsomething a bit more emotional,
(38:49):
and um, because it it will dothat, the contrast will increase
increase the impact.
Um, but I don't want to betelling, I don't want my
audience in tears.
I don't want my audience cryingall the time.
Um telling that sad storybecause I have to go into the
emotional state myself to helppull them into it, to lead them
(39:12):
into it.
And this is something I thinkto important to understand, not
just in storytelling, but inpresenting in general, your
emotional state will be leading,directing the audience as to
where to go, and they'll be youknow, you'll be leading them
into uh something good orsomething maybe not so good.
You should be aware of whatthat is.
Sometimes there's benefit orvalue in taking some audiences
(39:33):
into something that is a littlesadder, but if you're trying to
elicit tears, if you're tryingto uh have your audience crying,
I I feel that that's really onthe manipulation side of things.
And uh, well, why why do youwant them doing that?
I I I do think you're farbetter off to be putting out
positive stories, good goodfeeling in general, um, but fit
(39:56):
that into the the purpose ofyour talk.
Um so yeah, I do think weshould steer clear of emotional
manipulation, but we shouldencourage an emotional journey
and interaction with the talkwith the story.
Tim Newman (40:08):
Yeah.
And and and again, I I I thinkyou you really nailed it in in
that you have to put yourself inthat emotional state as you're
telling the story to for it tocome across the way you actually
want it to come across asauthentic, okay, because because
we want them, we want them sideby side with us as through
through that through thatjourney of the story.
And um, you know, I'm what I'mone of the things that I am
(40:32):
personally working on right nowis uh developing more stories.
And I what I what I'm workingon uh my coach has has me a lot
of times I I get into thedetails, like you say, killing
the darns.
I I hate doing that because tome that's the the those are the
th that's the gold for me,right?
Not necessarily may notnecessarily be the point that
(40:53):
I'm trying to convey, but it'sthose other pieces that are that
are gold for me.
And so he's uh helping me getfrom a five or six minute story
down to three minutes.
You know, get get in, get tothe point, whatever it is, and
then move on to to the nextpiece because you don't want
people to lose you don't want toget lost in that story.
(41:15):
You know, people people willwill shut out.
And and I'm like you, I there'sit doesn't matter what I'm
talking about, there's going tobe some humor in it.
Even even and I I'm not a biglike you, I'm not a big fan of
the of the emotion, of the ofthe sad emotion.
Um, because that's not why I Idon't think that's why people
want want to hear, becausethere's enough sadness
(41:35):
everywhere.
They when when you're on stageor you know, you're you're
leading the meeting or whatever,there there's enough sadness
and and and decrepitness uheverywhere else.
Let's let's let's lift them up.
Even even if it's a uh anemotional point, we can we can
still have some some levity toit.
John Ball (41:53):
It's it's generally better to do that.
You know, I find myself sayinga lot in interviews at the
moment, but you know Shakespeareunderstood very well that it
was important to put comicrelief in the middle of a
tragedy, you know, it's like uhwe have to break up that
emotion.
There's it, there's uh only somuch you can take uh like the
full the full tragedy all theway through with no no emotional
break or change is too much forpeople to handle that they will
(42:15):
lose interest.
It it's very similar in a talkas well.
Like I do know speakers whohave a very sad story to tell
that's part of what they getbooked for for speaking, but
they will lighten aspects andthey don't go into the they
don't go into misery themselves.
You know, they might be talkingabout their own resilience and
they'll be talking about thingsthey've gone through that might
be kind of horrific or or sadsometimes.
(42:36):
But you generally will nevercome away from most of those
speakers feeling feeling bad orfeeling negative about it.
You only feel, wow, they wentthrough something amazing and
they uh something horrific, butthey came through it with uh
with lessons, with with grace,with uh and they have carried
on.
They've made change uh they'veum make maybe even made national
(42:57):
change by becoming activistsfor you know improving something
that affected them, or youknow, it's like it there's all
sorts of um potential for goodthings to come out of the bad,
but they should.
But if it's just bad and it'sgetting people feeling worse and
worse, exactly.
Yeah, I don't think we're goingto a good place with our
audiences, yeah.
But definitely I I want myaudiences to to leave with a
(43:18):
smile.
Um there's enough there'senough stuff going on in their
lives that isn't good or happywithout adding to it.
Tim Newman (43:26):
Exactly, exactly.
So if someone listened, wantingto improve their communication,
like as soon as they get donelistening to us, what would be
the one thing you'd challengethem to to start working on?
John Ball (43:38):
Uh to to improve their communication, stage time.
Yeah.
Get up there and do it.
Uh there's the nothing you canbeat.
No amount of learning, noamount of communication, videos,
you know, as much as they canbe.
I'm not saying they're notgood.
I put loads of them out myself,and there's lots of good people
out there who do.
They will help, but nothingwill make as much of a
(43:58):
difference for you as getting upon a stage or getting up in
front of people and just doingit, um, doing what you need to
do to improve yourcommunication.
So, you know, a Toastmastersclub or some other speaking
organization or um or doing anopen mic night or whatever,
whatever it is for you.
Um, but just getting up anddoing it will be your biggest
(44:20):
path to growth.
And then you can apply thethings that you learn in the
videos rather than just fillingyour head with all this
knowledge that you still haven'tactually gone and put into
practice.
Tim Newman (44:33):
Yeah, yeah, I and again, I love that you say that
you nothing ever happened ifpeople didn't don't do anything.
So you you can you can you canthink about it all you want, but
until you start doing it, it'syou you you haven't actually
developed the skill.
John Ball (44:47):
Yeah, yeah.
The C Fi poet Rumi sayssomething along the lines of
like the moon and stars turningyour head.
Well, you know, the life of theuniverse can be going on inside
your mind, but it's m we mustput stuff out into the world.
We must take action if we wantto see things change.
It's like it's not enough toknow it or to think about it.
We have to do it, we have tomove our feet and take action.
Tim Newman (45:11):
Exactly.
Well, John, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Where's the best place thatpeople can connect with you?
John Ball (45:18):
All right.
My website,presentinfluence.com, is is the
best place to connect with me.
You'll find uh there's a quizthere for your charisma.
You can see how good yourcharisma score is.
Um, you can check out of my mypodcast episodes, you can see
what programs I offer and um allthe other good stuff about me
is all on the websitepresentinfluence.com.
Tim Newman (45:37):
And I and I'll put those links in the show notes
for everybody.
But John, thank you so much forspending some time with us
today.
I really do appreciate it.
And I I I love the the wholeidea of of uh uh levity and and
adding humor to everything thatwe do.
So thank you.
John Ball (45:53):
It's been a pleasure.
Thanks, Tim.
Tim Newman (45:55):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidence
podcast.com to get your freeebooks, Top 21 Challenges for
Public Speakers, and how toovercome them.
You can also register for theForum for Public Speaking.
Always remember your voice hasa power changer level.
We're talking next to you.
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead to real
results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor, turn
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on a
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is John Ball.
John is a keynote andpresentation coach who mostly
(00:32):
works with professionalspeakers, coaches, and
leadership teams, helping theircommunication go from competent
to captivating.
He's the host of the PresentInfluence Podcast, the
professional speaking show, foract for experts who want to
create impact, influence, andinspiration with their talks.
John also co-hosts the CoachingClinic podcast with his good
(00:53):
friend Angie.
John's a keynote speaker whotalks on topics like personal
mastery and bridging theleadership communication skills
gap.
He also publishes a small butpunchy LinkedIn newsletter
related to his podcast.
He's a bit cheeky and likes tojoke around.
He's got stories and lots ofthem.
He says he's not going to shareany not say for work ones, but
(01:13):
hopefully we can uh persuade himto share some good ones.
John, well welcome to a show.
This is going to be so muchfun.
You know, I've got to do that.
That's quite an introduction.
Thank you.
Well, you know, it's it it it'sit's what you do, and and I I
love I love the fun part.
Um I I like it when people youknow don't take yourselves too
seriously.
And one of the things I didreally like about in your bio,
(01:35):
and I and I joke about a lot, isyou say you have a face for
audio content and a body forbirthday cake.
That's me.
And I laugh because I tellpeople I've got a face for radio
and a voice for silent movies.
And yet you hate doing this.
Yeah, and and that's that'sthat's the fun part.
I I I think yeah, I I you knowpeople take themselves a little
(01:57):
bit too seriously and and andeverything um ha has to be, you
know, lock you know, buttoned upand locked in and very
professional.
And we're gonna talk about thata little bit, but I I I just
can't do it.
I you know, it's life's tooshort.
Let's have some fun in in thethings we're doing.
John Ball (02:11):
Yeah, yeah.
There's enough enough troublesin the world without us needing
to add to them or or take it alltoo seriously.
We a bit of laughter now andagain is much better.
Oh, absolutely.
Tim Newman (02:22):
So, you know, you you're you're from the UK, but
you're currently living inSpain.
That's right.
Um talk a little bit about howliving and traveling around the
world has has influenced the wayyou show up as a speaker and
and a coach.
Because you know, here in theUnited States, you know, a lot
of us we we don't do that to thetype of traveling that um
people from other countries do.
(02:43):
So kind of give give us alittle bit of that background
for us.
John Ball (02:47):
Well, I I feel like I've been very fortunate in my
life to have uh I kind of luckedinto becoming a flight
attendant for 12 years.
And uh it feels almostaccidental more than anything
else.
Um, but I thoroughly enjoyedit.
And uh so I got to see theworld and work around the world
in different environments aswell.
And more than anything, Ilearned, you know, as much as
(03:09):
cultures can be different,sometimes even very different to
what we are used to, there arealways ways to connect with
people.
There's always ways to makepeople laugh.
If you can share a language,sometimes even we can't, if you
can just be understood in someway, there's always ways to
communicate and connect withpeople and to to unite.
So I do think that that's oneof the things that definitely
(03:32):
global travel has taught me overthe years.
And I don't I have thispersonal philosophy that
wherever I am can be home if Ichoose for it to be home.
Even if I'm in a hotel roomsomewhere, I can choose to have
that.
I feel at home here, I can beat home so I don't get homesick
when I travel around.
And so I can feel comfortableand confident wherever I am and
(03:55):
connect with people around me,that there's always
opportunities for that too.
So um travel has opened open mymind in many ways, um, but it's
also expanded my horizons forwhat's possible and for my
comfort levels to be able tofeel like I can fit in or at
(04:15):
least feel comfortable justabout anywhere in the world.
Tim Newman (04:19):
Yeah, and and how does how do you find humor that
that really kind of is somethingthat's relatable no matter
where you are, that also helpsyou know build that that comfort
level?
John Ball (04:30):
Yeah.
Sometimes it is just aboutplayfulness more than telling
jokes.
Right.
And and so it isn't necessarilythat I need to do a stand-up
routine for you know, if I'm inJapan and no one's gonna
understand it necessarily.
Um, it's not necessarily that.
But if I'm just a littlelighthearted about things, a bit
playful, I'm smiling, I'm warm,I show warmth uh to other
(04:52):
people, that they feel that theythey can do that as well.
And I know there sometimes theysaid that some cultures don't
necessarily feel like they arethat warm.
And yet my experience hasalways been that you will find
the people who are when you showthose things for yourself.
People, the people are lookingto connect, people are looking
for those opportunities.
So showing up with warmth and adesire to connect and to
(05:14):
understand each other and to uhhave new experiences, learn from
new people is alwaysopportunities that feel like
they always feel like growth anddevelopment for me.
I always have something tolearn from others, and I hope
they find something to learnfrom me too.
Tim Newman (05:28):
Yeah, and and I I I think that's so important, you
know, to be able to learn fromothers, you have to be open to
doing that too.
You have to be open to um to tothe way other other people see
things, the way other peopleconnect, the way uh the the way
that they um uh learn, listen,and and communicate.
That's and I think that's oneof the biggest ways that that uh
(05:50):
biggest ways to learn is isjust by being open to it, you
know.
And so then it just becomesnatural.
I mean, there's I I thinkthere's a way that you know we
can be very intentional about itand there's times for that, but
there's also times to justbeing open to to to letting
things happen and learning thatway as well.
John Ball (06:08):
Yeah.
I think certain certain s umcertain gestures and facial
expressions are pretty universaland we can plant a and that
those are the things that tendto give people the initial
impression of what we're like asa person anyway.
And so if we establish thosethings, the language issue is
less problematic because westill tend to like people who we
feel we like, even if we don'tfully understand each other.
Tim Newman (06:32):
Right, right.
And you know, you you said whenyou when we first started this
that it's not about necessarilytelling jokes all the time, but
you do do some open mic comedy,and which I think is which I
think is awesome.
I I don't know that I couldever do that because I I don't
think I'm funny, but uh but wwhy do you believe every speaker
should should try to stand upat least once?
John Ball (06:54):
Um I think because it is so scary.
It was something that scared meso much, and I wasn't sure I
could do it.
There's all that's always thatthing of is what comes out of my
head that might be funny to me,are other people gonna find
that funny as well?
And we don't know, andsometimes we're a bit afraid of
finding out.
We don't really we don't reallywant to put ourselves in that
situation.
(07:15):
Um but there are there aresomewhat safe ways to do it, and
and I often will tell the storyof like I'll tell you about my
very first ever time doing openmic.
Um, I'd been putting it off forforever, but just didn't want
to do it, but I finally gotinspired by a guest on my show
um to go to go for it, to do it.
And she's been doing comedy foryears and she still does open
(07:36):
mic nights just to just for fun,just to connect with people and
to try different things out.
Right.
Well, if you can still want todo that all this time, I should
at least give it a go because Idon't know what I'm missing.
And so when I went there, Ijust gave myself permission to
bomb.
It's okay if I bomb, that'sfine.
I can do it.
Success here is just me gettingup on that stage, right?
(07:59):
Being scared to get up on thatstage.
If it all goes horribly wrong,fine, it goes horribly wrong,
but I will have still done it.
I've put myself forward, I'veput myself at least into the
situation where things couldhappen.
Now, a few people who are onbefore me did bomb, which uh, so
I was pretty lucky that the barwas set low, thankfully.
(08:20):
So but they it just made mefeel more comfortable.
It's like, okay, it's okay tobomb.
Nothing happened to them, theythey survived it, they come off
the stage, they're stillsmiling.
One of them was even aprofessional comedian who just
unfortunately bombed thatparticular night.
And um, and so I get up onstage, I did my act.
I think I have to say, I thinkI got the most laughs of the
night, which is great.
(08:40):
Uh, but it was it was amazing.
Even if that hadn't happened, Iwas just so so desperate to get
back up and do it again.
But the challenge of all ofthat, it was so confronting, and
also having to take parts ofyour life and put them into a
context that finds the funny andthat finds the humor in life is
a great reframe.
(09:01):
Is a um, whilst we shouldn'tuse comedy, stand-up comedy for
our own therapy as such, it doeshave it does have some effects
like that because you are pushedinto reframing things in your
life that where there may havebeen some pain or trauma, even
as a communicator, I think it'sessential that you be able to at
least add some lightness, somehumor into your communication.
(09:22):
Right.
And unless you really neverfind anything funny or never
laugh at things, you canprobably find a way to be funny.
You just need to know the righttools or setups to do that and
create some material.
And not everything's gonna geta great laugh, but some stuff
will.
If you can at least get somelaughs or chuckles now and again
and a talk or a presentationthat take away, like especially
(09:43):
if it's a serious present, ifyou're presenting um end of end
of year results and stuff andthey're not being great, it's
gonna be a bit of a seriousmeeting.
But if you can add a bit oflightness to that, that's gonna
cut through the tension, it'sgonna put people at ease, and
it's gonna make you seem like amuch more engaging and
charismatic leader as well.
Tim Newman (10:02):
Yeah, it's I I I love that you said that too, you
know, for for any number ofdifferent reasons.
First you know, first the wholeidea of of do it scared, do do
it, do it, um, I wouldn't say doit petrified, but but yeah, do
it do it, do it do it aspetrified as you as you are,
right?
You know, yeah.
You know, I you know I youknow, you if you think about all
(10:23):
the times that we do otherthings scared, you know,
whatever it is, you know, I'mI'm married now, so I would
never do this now, but when whenI was dating, going up and
talking to a to a woman, uh, orasking for a date, or you know,
whatever.
We do all those other thingsscared or or with with
trepidation.
Um this is something that likeyou said, nothing what's the
(10:47):
word what's what's the worstthat's gonna happen compared to
what's the best thing that'sgonna happen.
You know, you do an open micnight, okay.
The worst thing that's gonnahappen is you're gonna buy them.
The best thing that's gonnahappen is people are gonna be
laughing their heads off for forfor maybe for days because
they're gonna go back and thinkabout, oh, remember what John
said?
Remember that joke John toldwhat what whatever it is.
So, you know so do do thingswhen when we're when we're
(11:09):
scared or when we're we havesome anxiety over it, and stop
thinking about what's the worstthing that's gonna happen and
start thinking about what's thewhat what the what that best
thing is.
John Ball (11:18):
Yeah, if if everything in life, if we always
knew everything in life wouldgo well, there'd never be any
real challenge in life, wouldthere?
There'd be nothing, no fear,nothing to overcome, no growth
because of that as well.
So we do grow from these sortsof challenges that we can
present ourselves.
And so, you know, right, sowhat's the worst that could
happen?
Because um probably the worstthat could really happen is that
(11:40):
things don't go the way youwant them to, and you get in
your head about it and startmaking yourself up about it.
That's that's something thatpeople just tend to do.
But if you can lower the stakesfor yourself and say, hey,
look, it's no big deal.
My I lowered the stakes formyself, it's no big deal.
If I bomb I bomb, but I've doneit, I've done the thing that
I've been so afraid of for sucha long time.
(12:01):
That really is a thing.
Going up and talking to that umbeautiful person who you think
is very attractive.
Um that might be scary becausethere's always that fear of
rejection not being accepted,and rejection stings.
But again, what's the worstthat could happen?
You're no worse off if nothinghappens than you were before.
It's just it's just theconversation that's going on in
(12:24):
our head is can either be in it,can either be empowering or
disempowering.
It tends to be for most peopledisempowering oh you suck,
you're not a good bell, you'renot attractive enough, or they
didn't mind, or whatever isgoing on for you.
You weren't funny enough, youdidn't nobody laughed.
We beat ourselves up.
Exactly.
Tim Newman (12:40):
And you know, as as I as I think about it, um when I
asked my wife to marry me, sheshe told me she had to think
about it.
You know, so you think you youso you think about rejection.
And when I asked her dad, hesaid he told me no.
So I mean it's you you yougotta you gotta laugh.
I mean, I I've I've got allkinds of stories about being
(13:00):
rejected, so you you just becomenumb to it and and you But it
wasn't the end of the story,right?
It no, it's not the end of thestory, right?
It's just like just likeanything else.
And you know, what one of theother things that I I really
like that you mentioned was thewhole idea of charisma.
And is is charisma something,you know.
I I I talk to people, somepeople say charisma can be
coached, it can be built.
(13:21):
Others say that it's you eitherhave it or you don't.
I'm I'm in the in the in thecamp of you can develop
charisma.
Charisma.
John Ball (13:29):
What what do you think?
What are you thinking?
What are your thoughts on that?
100%.
I think you can developcharisma.
Some people do have it verynatural, seem to have it very
naturally, and that's great whenthey do.
I think some of the mainelements of charisma, especially
as a speaker or presenter, uh,are really just uh it comes from
various research.
One part of it being fromVanessa Van Edwards, who has
(13:51):
some amazing research and bookson this topic, but just being on
stage and portraying thequalities of warmth and
competence.
So if you come across assomeone who has warmth about
you, and someone who is likeit's relatable.
So we like people who are warm,not people who are frosty cold,
and we like people who seem toknow what they're talking about
and have some level ofcompetence with that.
If you can show that you havethose things, you've all you're
(14:13):
already a big part of the waythere.
But I think people tend tothink of charisma in terms of uh
you have to be always be thelife and soul of the party.
You always end up being, Ithink it gets very tied to an
extroversion.
Yes, uh, and they're not thesame thing.
And I do think charisma can belearned and can be applied in
particular situations, maybe notevery part of your life, but
(14:34):
ultimately there are, you know,it was interesting to me that,
and I'll just say this so manypeople who do get into talking
about charisma get into itbecause um their initial
interest in it is dating and andgetting laid, right?
That that's that's why a lot ofpeople who talk about this or
even teach it get into it in thefirst place.
(14:56):
And that wasn't the case forme.
Um, it wasn't something that Ithought I need to get more
charisma so I can, you know, getand be more successful dating
or anything like that.
That wasn't really the case.
It was more a case of beinginterested in what makes people
influential, what makes peoplepersuasive, that I've been
fascinated in for years andyears, and um and and starting
(15:16):
to pull that apart andunderstand.
I want to get into the what arethe principles uh that make
somebody um more appealing, morepersuasive, more attractive,
more charismatic.
And it is a lot of it is fromknowing who you are and owning
it, being okay with your ownflaws, your own faults, being
(15:38):
aware of what they are, beingunashamed of them, unapologetic
for living your life, owningyour mistakes, admitting to them
and showing that you've learnedfrom them, um, but also being
interested in other people, notputting your ego above them.
There's so many differentelements of this.
There's more as well, but theseare some things that are at the
heart of charisma.
(15:59):
You know, there's people whoreally show an interest in you
who ask you questions, they justfeel really warm and you just
want to keep answering theirquestions.
That's charisma.
That's uh something you youremember them, you feel like, oh
wow, they were nice, they werereally interested, and you
probably get a warm feeling fromthem.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (16:17):
Yeah, and and and I I I love that you you said that
that you number one is thatyou're showing interest in other
people, because that's that'sthat right there to me is is
something that really uh buildsuh builds a connection as well.
Even if you're you're talkingabout something um that you may
not necessarily agree with, butif you if you've got if if
you're showing that that personthat that you're interested in
(16:38):
what they're saying, um thatthat maybe they may be the most
important person in the room,that's something that's gonna
really build that thatconnection as as well.
Yeah.
John Ball (16:48):
Yeah, that that's that quote that's often
attributed to Maya Angelou.
She may have said it, but shedidn't originate it.
That people uh won't alwaysremember what you say, but
they'll always remember how youmade them feel.
Right.
And um, and I think that'svery, very true.
It's like it is aboutgenerating emotion in people,
feeling, connection.
Uh, and that could only comefrom genuine interest.
(17:11):
I think some some elements ofcharisma can be faked.
I'm not gonna pretend that theycan't, and you should watch out
for that because it's likethere is just evidence that um
sociopaths, psychopaths uhunderstand these principles and
are able to um act within themand come across as people who
have charisma.
But if they have charisma, butthey're also showing sort of
(17:34):
dark traits, they're alsoshowing maybe they're a bit
bullying, maybe they're superdominant, maybe they always need
a bit of praise and uh support,maybe they are always putting
other people down to feelbetter, they don't like any kind
of criticism.
These are all, those are thered flags that will say, yeah,
all right, this is this ispotentially somebody who might
be a bit uh bit sociopathic,they might be at least a bit
very narcissistic.
(17:54):
Yes.
These are dark, uh what theycall dark triad traits um that
you really want to uh just flagfor yourself because they could
indicate that that person is nota good person, but they're
probably not that genuine.
They are pretending thecharisma is an act.
Tim Newman (18:09):
Exactly.
And and and the the those typesof things will eventually show
their heads, right?
I mean I mean, if if um maymaybe not to you that uh
initially, but maybe this thatperson could have done it to
somebody else, and then they seethat they're treating you that
way, and then they say, uh, nowI now I really see what this
(18:30):
person is about and what thisperson is doing.
Um and uh and I think that'sone of the things that really
kind of separates is charmingcharisma, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I think charisma is is is moreis is obviously more genuine.
Charm is an act.
John Ball (18:47):
Yeah, it can be.
My my I remember my grandmothersaying to me when I was a
child, beware, beware ofcharming men, she said.
Uh she was she was quite rightas well.
It's something to at least payattention to because it could
indicate that there's sometoxicity beneath that, but it
doesn't always so it is justsomething to something to be
aware of if someone's butteringyou up, uh complimenting you all
(19:09):
the time on those kinds ofthings, love bombing you, it's
called um this and a lot of thisstuff ties into I'm I'm very
interested in cults.
I don't know if you've everlooked into um cults and how
they operate, not just religiouscults, any kind of cult,
personality cults, all of that.
Um they operate on the samekind of principles.
These are just like you canhave cults of one person, small
group cults, uh cults ofpersonality, cults of religion,
(19:30):
uh, but they operate on the sameprinciples and and they're all
kind of controlling, bullying,um power, power positioning.
And um, when you understandthose sorts of principles, um,
very powerful.
I think it's good for anyone toknow that because I think
knowledge does give you a it'slike uh like getting your shots
is a bit of a bit of immunity,not a guarantee, but it's some
(19:53):
immunity from these things thatyou're more likely to recognize
when you're confronted withthem.
Tim Newman (19:58):
And how does that r really relate to the whole idea
of knowing yourself?
Because you you mentioned that,and I'm I'm a big believer in
we we here, at least here in theStates, we we don't really
teach people how to criticallythink about themselves and and
really get to know who they areand what what they're all about.
How does that how does thatrelate to that?
John Ball (20:21):
I I've I've definitely been in periods of my
own life where I haven't reallyfelt like I knew who I was or
what I was about.
I think most people canprobably relate to that at some
point.
And and I no longer think thatit's uh a journey so much to to
uncover that as more of adecision of that you you you
kind of decide who you want tobe showing up as in life, what's
(20:42):
important to you, what reallymatters, and uh how you want to
live and experience your ownlife.
Do you want a life that hasgood positive challenge in it?
Uh, or do you want a life thatthen just kind of rolls along
massive comfort level, no realchallenges, just try and get
through it, get to the end of itas as comfortably as possible.
(21:04):
Uh, you know, I I choose tohave a life that has good
positive challenge in it.
Yes.
And uh so I create a lot ofthose challenges for myself
because I don't I I've tried thecoasting, I've tried the smooth
sailing stuff, and it's boring.
Boring.
And you don't feel like you'rereally getting anywhere, and you
don't feel like you really knowyourself.
So I think until you do startchallenging yourself and
(21:26):
interacting with other people,you don't really know how you're
how you want to be, who youwant to be showing up as in this
world.
It is making those decisions.
Who do I want to be showing upas in this life?
How do I want to experience mylife?
Because I can either beaffecting people positively or I
can be infecting them withnegativity and other things as
(21:47):
well.
So, you know, the there'sreally the the choices that we
make define define who we arerather than some X marks the
spot treasure hunt to try andfind the real you.
It really is the choices anddecisions that you want to make
of how you want to show up inyour life and how you want to,
how you want others toexperience you as well, as much
(22:08):
as how you want to experiencethings for yourself.
Yeah.
Tim Newman (22:11):
And you know, I I think back you know, I've I've
had a couple uh you know periodsof my life, or more than a
couple, let's just say a fewperiods of my life where I've
I've kind of fallen into thatcomfort, you know, and uh not
growing and not not doing thethings that I knew I wanted to
do or were or getting to theplaces I knew I wanted to get.
(22:36):
And one of the things that Ifound with me is you said it,
negativity starts to to to creepin, and I and I'm not the
positive, you know, person forother people that I've that I I
want to be, and you can I cansee the negativity and how I'm
treating other people and it itsometimes it it has taken me a
little bit to to get out of thatto to move forward.
(22:59):
But understanding where we areand being able to to move
forward, I think is is reallyimportant as well.
John Ball (23:08):
There's uh there's a simple principle in personal
development of cause and effect.
Uh you may have come across itbefore, but uh this is about
living what how we live.
Do we live at cause or do welive in in effect?
Right.
And so living at cause ischoosing the path of your life,
choosing how you want to showup, how you want to be
experiencing your life.
Living in effect is having thatall decided for you.
I mean, you get caught up intraffic in the morning, you're
(23:30):
in a bad mood for the rest ofthe day, someone else has
affected your mood, your and howyou experience your life for
that day.
World events piling onto you.
You get we can easily getburied under all of that and the
negativity.
And yet we could choosesomething else.
We don't have to be buriedunder that.
Right.
We can make another choice forourselves or like, well, yeah,
(23:51):
there's plenty of uhunhappiness, plenty of sadness,
tragic things going on in theworld.
But does us being miserablehelp that?
Does us be miserable or are wekind of just adding to the
problem?
Whereas perhaps we could bebeing a bit more being of
service in some way.
We use that service is justputting a smile on someone's
face or helping someone out ordoing a random act of kindness
(24:13):
or whatever it could be.
But as soon as we start to moveinto the service mindset for
others, that it's not all aboutus and our fulfillment and our
gratification, then I think wehave much more possibility to
live a more fulfilled life thanif if we're all only concerned
about what we're getting out ofthe deal.
Right.
Tim Newman (24:31):
And you know, d doing what we do, you know, we
we talk about it's it's notabout us all the time, right?
And especially from a speakingperspective, it's not about us.
You're I think you're the firstperson that's mentioned that
it's not about us ever.
Yeah, right.
And that's but that that'sthat's that's right.
I mean, what when we're whenwe're dealing with other people,
(24:52):
it's just it's not about us.
It's about us adding value andpointing to other people and and
and and that sort of thing.
And and I think that'simportant for the audience to to
get and grasp and think on thatfor for a few minutes.
John Ball (25:05):
It's it's about us to only to the extent of um the
decisions that we're making ofhow we want to show up and and
how we want other people to feelwhen they're interacting with
us.
Like what are we aiming at,what are we actually trying to
put out there into the world?
If we're not conscious aboutthat, then it's just whatever
happens to be going on that day.
Whereas if we're we're moreconscious about that, there's a
(25:25):
good chance that people aregonna feel much, much happier,
much and that they're gonna wantto interact with us more if
we're showing up as a uh withhigh value, with good energy,
uh, with positivity toward them,with warmth at least, or
understanding, compassion, allthose good things, empathy, all
the things we hope and want andhave people will have and show
towards each other.
(25:47):
Um it's hard to deal with lifewhen we when we encounter people
who aren't like that orsituations that aren't like
that.
But it's like when you've madethose decisions for yourself, it
does then just become abouteveryone else.
It's like you're you're doingthis for for them, serving other
people, right?
Because that's where you willfind greater fulfillment
ultimately.
If you're only trying to fillyour own bucket, um you there's
(26:10):
never there's there's nevergoing to be enough.
We see it over and over again.
It's like uh there's only somuch fame you can have, there's
only so much money you can have.
Um, and I see a lot of peoplewho do have like high levels of
success in one particular areaoften will start to focus on
philanthropy and helping otherpeople because that's where they
really start to find meaning inthemselves in their lives.
Tim Newman (26:33):
Exactly.
And and that that that's aperfect, perfect, perfect point.
And and I think you mayappreciate this more than some.
You know, when when we came onand we got on, yes, I was around
I'm doing great, I'm doingawesome.
Right.
And I say that all the time,whether that's whether that's on
I'm really doing great anddoing awesome or sarcastically.
(26:55):
And whoever I'm talking tonever really knows.
Because it number one, I don'tknow what's going on in that
person's life.
And it maybe if it's a smile,maybe if there's an uplifting
things, make and I could be thatperson, that's great.
And they don't need to knowthat I got cut off on the way
into work.
They don't need to know that Igot an argument with with my
(27:17):
kids or my wife.
They don't they don't need it'sit's not it's not that.
Let's let's be that positiveperson.
And now the people within myinner circle know whether I'm
being sarcastic or not.
John Ball (27:26):
Right.
Tim Newman (27:28):
But but the general public that I mean let's let's
be uplifting and positive andand and and bring that value to
them.
And you know, it's it's bestday ever.
And wow, good energy out there.
John Ball (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, that there's uh a guy, uh, one of the
first guys I started learningfrom in personal development,
it's kind of not he's not reallythat there's all sorts of
problems there, so I'm not gonnaname names or anything like
that.
But one thing he said uh wouldsay a lot that stuck with me.
Uh his answer would be feelinggood for no good reason.
I feel good, yeah.
No good reason, just feel good.
It's like great, we should bemore like that in our lives.
(28:00):
He's like happiness isn'tdoesn't have to be this
conditional thing.
Feeling good doesn't have to beconditional on whether the
weather's good that day orwhether the the news has been
okay or whether your health isall right.
It's a choice, it's a lifedecision that we have to try and
keep making for ourselves.
And that's also then what arewe putting out there as well?
It's like, well, we can feelgood for no good reason.
(28:20):
This isn't about, you know,there's some people I do know,
some people will say, Oh, well,you should just be honest about
it, you know, if you're notfeeling great and someone says,
How are you?
You should tell them that no, Idon't think I don't necessarily
think that's the case.
If there's some, if they're aconfidant, if there's someone
who you feel comfortable sharingthat stuff with, and then
that's the right kind ofcircumstance and situation.
But otherwise, I think put outgood energy, put out yeah, feel
(28:42):
feeling good, feeling great.
How are you today?
Um, wherever we can, if we canspread a bit of joy and
happiness, we make the world abit of a better place.
Tim Newman (28:50):
Yeah, but and and take let's take that a step
further, because even if you'renot and you're sharing that with
somebody who who you don't knowor or is not in, like you said,
in that confident or innercircle, if you start acting that
way, you're gonna start feelingthat way too.
Right.
John Ball (29:04):
Uh natural, natural empathy, natural connection,
mirror nuance, and all that kindof thing.
Yeah, yeah.
We st we start to we start toget into the states of the
people around us, and and soit's very easy to be pulled into
emotional states by otherpeople.
So uh this is again taking thatresponsibility.
Where do you want to be leadingthem emotionally?
Do you want to pull them intoyour negativity as well?
(29:25):
Or do you do you want to beable to do that?
Right, yeah, it probably does.
But but it's uh it is it isthose kinds of decisions of uh
do you want to pull do you wantto pull someone down or lift
them up in this moment?
And um, we don't alwaysnecessarily more we practice
lifting them up in that moment,the more likely we'll do it off
offhand.
So I don't think there'sanything negative or bad around
(29:47):
you know, someone says, How areyou?
I think I'm wonderful, I feelgreat.
Uh but I do think the sort ofthe flaccid in between responses
are probably the worst ones tome.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I'm right.
No.
No energy to that.
There's no how am I supposed toinfer from this?
Yeah.
Tim Newman (30:05):
Exactly.
And and you know, I I I I lovethis this this part of the
conversation.
And it all revolves around thatthat whole this whole idea of
charisma again, but how do wehow do we kill our charisma?
Because I mean we as if we'resitting in an audience, we we
see it.
(30:25):
We I mean we we see it almostimmediately, right?
But but what what are somecharisma killers?
John Ball (30:32):
Overthinking is probably one of the worst ones
getting in our heads about stuffbecause uh as soon as we stop
being fully present with anaudience or with anyone that
we're with, then we are alreadycreating a barrier between them.
Um so if we you know if if wemess up or make a mistake, if we
can't laugh about it orimprovise our way around it,
(30:52):
just dance, dance around it andcarry on.
If we let it take us out orsay, oh, I can't, I can't
continue.
I've made a mistake now, uh,we're gonna kill our charisma as
well.
As soon as soon as the audiencefeels like anyone's on the way
down in any way, shape, or form,you're done.
Your charisma's dead.
You know, you're not gonna beable to recover that as well.
And you've seen people unravelemotionally on stage before now
(31:16):
because they've had personalissues going on.
And well, far better to maybejust cancel the gig or get
someone else up there than to goput yourself through that in
front of an audience of howevermany people as well who get to
who get to watch the unraveling.
Um, but you know, there's a lotof things, you know, just in
how we relate to people, if yourego gets in the way, if you
(31:37):
start thinking you're abovepeople and you're talking at
them rather than with them,there's a very different energy
to that.
So we want to be connecting,trying to talk, especially like
the situation, a situation likethis.
You might be doing a podcast ora YouTube thing on your on your
own.
Um, so you're just talking to acamera, and you still need to
have some charisma.
So you need to imagine thatyou're connecting with whoever
(31:58):
is on the other side of thatcamera.
You might really want to thenimagine one of your good friends
or maybe even your best friendis on the other side of the
camera or there, that you aretalking, giving the talk or the
presentation or whatever you'redoing to them.
Yeah, and maybe only to them,but it's for everyone as well.
Yeah, so those are those aresome of the things that can can
really start to kill and damageyour charisma if you let them.
Tim Newman (32:22):
Yeah, and and the that your last point, I I
resemble that remark.
I I I do I do obviously I dothe the an interview podcast and
then I do a a solo episode oncea week too.
And I I hope that I'm gettingbetter at it, but you know, to
just talking into the camera bymyself, not not being able to
(32:44):
see interaction, it's very, verydifficult for me.
Because I'm I'm I'm somebodywho as a recovering college
professor, I you know, teaching,I can see if I've lost some
almost immediately and I can Ican you know get back on track.
But you know, doing a andthey're only 10 to 15 minutes,
but doing a 10 to 15 minute, youknow, teaching lesson with no
(33:07):
interaction, no facialexpressions or nothing, for me
is it's oh it's it's like death.
Because you know, and um I'mI'm I think I'm getting better
at it, but it's it's it's it'shard because I I don't truly
know until after I you know putit out there and I start getting
feedback, you know, from fromthe audience or uh, you know,
(33:30):
again, my inner circle whosometimes I'll I'll send it to
them and say, you know, telltell tell me before I post this.
You know, those types ofthings.
But but it's it's hard for me.
John Ball (33:39):
It's something to develop over time.
And I don't think we should betoo too harsh on ourselves if
we're working on that skill anddeveloping it.
I don't I don't know that Icouldn't be, I'm sure I could be
better at it than I am.
You know, it's like there'salways room for growth and
development.
Um, you know, even people whomay have may feel like they have
mastery in this area, if youever feel like you get to a
place where you have nothing tolearn, I think you're only gonna
(34:01):
damage your own potential to bebetter than you are right now.
Because realistically, I thinkif you're not better six months
from now or 12 months from nowthan you are now, you're not
growing, you're not developing.
And if you and if you're notgrowing, what are you doing?
Are you stagnating at best?
Tim Newman (34:17):
Right.
And especially doing what wedo.
I I think it's important thatour audience sees us growing and
doing doing the things to getbetter.
100%.
John Ball (34:26):
100%.
No, there's something somepeople maybe not won't maybe
wouldn't feel comfortableleaving up like early episodes
of podcasts or old YouTubevideos.
I'll leave it all out therebecause I I I I want people to
be able to look at step one ofthe journey and then look at
step or 250 of the journey andand see some growth, see some
(34:48):
change there.
It's like, oh, isn't it?
This isn't it doesn't seem likethe same guy.
Well, that should be the case.
There should have been thatlevel of growth and development.
But none of us want to have togo through you know the dip and
um have to deal with the uh theprocess of getting through the
different levels of competenceuntil it's more unconscious
competence for us, and we canjust do things naturally until
(35:09):
it's like within us and we'veembodied it.
Um, but that takes a long time.
And most of us don't want to gothrough the process.
We just want the uh instantfix, the instant gratification,
and yeah, that's uh plug intothe matrix and download it all
and now I can do it.
I know kung fu, you know?
Tim Newman (35:25):
Yeah, and I mean and that's not really how how it
works, but yeah, how how do youpersonally test and refine
stories before bringing them onstage or or working with a
client?
John Ball (35:35):
Oh boy, um stories are interesting.
It does depend on the kind ofstory, um, personal stories
particularly.
Um I I do really look to uhmake sure that I understand what
the transformation point is inthe story, what the does the
story fulfill the purpose ofwhat it's going to be there for?
And do I have better storiesdifferent than maybe my own or
(35:57):
maybe other people's?
Do I have better stories thatillustrate this before I put a
story into a talk?
Um, you know, if it'sstorytelling competition, that's
a little bit different.
But right, um, but for puttingsomething into a talk is that
there has to be a purpose forthe story.
So it's there to illustrate apoint.
It maybe is there to help uhshow a journey of
transformation.
And if it's my owntransformation, um then I'm
(36:19):
gonna look to you know tell thestory as concisely as possible,
but still make it a journey,still make it a story.
And so when I'm constructingthat, yeah, the trans key
transformation point, the thejump off point, like um, I may
even stop a story sometimesbefore I get to the
transformation point and comeback to it later with the
transformation continuously.
(36:39):
Oh screen uh because it it'sthose, it's like the hooks that
you start to put into a talk oryou know, if you're gonna open
your talk up with a story, youmight not close it until the
finish of your talk becauseyou're keeping that mental tab
open for people in their brains.
The the story constructionitself is really just to make
sure it makes logical sense.
You may have to condensetimelines, that's really
(37:01):
important to think.
Take out it's like killingthere's an expression kill your
darlings.
You probably have to take outall the stuff that you might
want to put in there.
Yes.
So you might first of all tellit the way you might tell it to
a friend or to a loved one, uh,but then you have to condense it
from there.
And so you might have to killyour darlings, take out some of
the stuff you like, just to havethe story be more punchy, more
(37:23):
concise, more impactful.
But there should be anemotional flow to the story as
well.
Because if they if there's noemotional buy-in from your
audience, um, the story is goingto have less impact for them as
well.
So you want them to be able toconnect in with your story
because what happens when wetell a story is that people
start to visualize it generally.
Not everyone's good withvisualization, but most people
(37:45):
will be putting themselves intoit.
You know, it's like the theyput imagining themselves, all
right, oh, maybe think of asituation I've had like that, or
how I would react in thatsituation.
They're starting to picturewhat that situation would look
like in their mind's eye.
And so that way there's likethey're playing it almost like a
film.
They're starting to see thestory for themselves.
So it has to flow and it has tomake sense, and it has to
(38:06):
remove any extraneous detail.
Um, it needs to be told inmostly in the present tense.
You might flash back to pasttense at some points, but as the
story, tell the story as it'shappening so that they it's um
you know an experience that theyhave right now with you.
But more than anything, I sayit should have some emotional
(38:27):
impact, and you need to decidewhat you want that to be.
And you know, I generally takethe attitude of I want people
to, I don't necessarily alwaysneed them to be laughing when I
tell a story.
I'm probably gonna put humorinto it because that's my style
of doing things.
But sometimes I'll put humorinto it to make a bigger impact
for something more dramatic orsomething a bit more emotional,
(38:49):
and um, because it it will dothat, the contrast will increase
increase the impact.
Um, but I don't want to betelling, I don't want my
audience in tears.
I don't want my audience cryingall the time.
Um telling that sad storybecause I have to go into the
emotional state myself to helppull them into it, to lead them
(39:12):
into it.
And this is something I thinkto important to understand, not
just in storytelling, but inpresenting in general, your
emotional state will be leading,directing the audience as to
where to go, and they'll be youknow, you'll be leading them
into uh something good orsomething maybe not so good.
You should be aware of whatthat is.
Sometimes there's benefit orvalue in taking some audiences
(39:33):
into something that is a littlesadder, but if you're trying to
elicit tears, if you're tryingto uh have your audience crying,
I I feel that that's really onthe manipulation side of things.
And uh, well, why why do youwant them doing that?
I I I do think you're farbetter off to be putting out
positive stories, good goodfeeling in general, um, but fit
(39:56):
that into the the purpose ofyour talk.
Um so yeah, I do think weshould steer clear of emotional
manipulation, but we shouldencourage an emotional journey
and interaction with the talkwith the story.
Tim Newman (40:08):
Yeah.
And and and again, I I I thinkyou you really nailed it in in
that you have to put yourself inthat emotional state as you're
telling the story to for it tocome across the way you actually
want it to come across asauthentic, okay, because because
we want them, we want them sideby side with us as through
through that through thatjourney of the story.
And um, you know, I'm what I'mone of the things that I am
(40:32):
personally working on right nowis uh developing more stories.
And I what I what I'm workingon uh my coach has has me a lot
of times I I get into thedetails, like you say, killing
the darns.
I I hate doing that because tome that's the the those are the
th that's the gold for me,right?
Not necessarily may notnecessarily be the point that
(40:53):
I'm trying to convey, but it'sthose other pieces that are that
are gold for me.
And so he's uh helping me getfrom a five or six minute story
down to three minutes.
You know, get get in, get tothe point, whatever it is, and
then move on to to the nextpiece because you don't want
people to lose you don't want toget lost in that story.
(41:15):
You know, people people willwill shut out.
And and I'm like you, I there'sit doesn't matter what I'm
talking about, there's going tobe some humor in it.
Even even and I I'm not a biglike you, I'm not a big fan of
the of the emotion, of the ofthe sad emotion.
Um, because that's not why I Idon't think that's why people
want want to hear, becausethere's enough sadness
(41:35):
everywhere.
They when when you're on stageor you know, you're you're
leading the meeting or whatever,there there's enough sadness
and and and decrepitness uheverywhere else.
Let's let's let's lift them up.
Even even if it's a uh anemotional point, we can we can
still have some some levity toit.
John Ball (41:53):
It's it's generally better to do that.
You know, I find myself sayinga lot in interviews at the
moment, but you know Shakespeareunderstood very well that it
was important to put comicrelief in the middle of a
tragedy, you know, it's like uhwe have to break up that
emotion.
There's it, there's uh only somuch you can take uh like the
full the full tragedy all theway through with no no emotional
break or change is too much forpeople to handle that they will
(42:15):
lose interest.
It it's very similar in a talkas well.
Like I do know speakers whohave a very sad story to tell
that's part of what they getbooked for for speaking, but
they will lighten aspects andthey don't go into the they
don't go into misery themselves.
You know, they might be talkingabout their own resilience and
they'll be talking about thingsthey've gone through that might
be kind of horrific or or sadsometimes.
(42:36):
But you generally will nevercome away from most of those
speakers feeling feeling bad orfeeling negative about it.
You only feel, wow, they wentthrough something amazing and
they uh something horrific, butthey came through it with uh
with lessons, with with grace,with uh and they have carried
on.
They've made change uh they'veum make maybe even made national
(42:57):
change by becoming activistsfor you know improving something
that affected them, or youknow, it's like it there's all
sorts of um potential for goodthings to come out of the bad,
but they should.
But if it's just bad and it'sgetting people feeling worse and
worse, exactly.
Yeah, I don't think we're goingto a good place with our
audiences, yeah.
But definitely I I want myaudiences to to leave with a
(43:18):
smile.
Um there's enough there'senough stuff going on in their
lives that isn't good or happywithout adding to it.
Tim Newman (43:26):
Exactly, exactly.
So if someone listened, wantingto improve their communication,
like as soon as they get donelistening to us, what would be
the one thing you'd challengethem to to start working on?
John Ball (43:38):
Uh to to improve their communication, stage time.
Yeah.
Get up there and do it.
Uh there's the nothing you canbeat.
No amount of learning, noamount of communication, videos,
you know, as much as they canbe.
I'm not saying they're notgood.
I put loads of them out myself,and there's lots of good people
out there who do.
They will help, but nothingwill make as much of a
(43:58):
difference for you as getting upon a stage or getting up in
front of people and just doingit, um, doing what you need to
do to improve yourcommunication.
So, you know, a Toastmastersclub or some other speaking
organization or um or doing anopen mic night or whatever,
whatever it is for you.
Um, but just getting up anddoing it will be your biggest
(44:20):
path to growth.
And then you can apply thethings that you learn in the
videos rather than just fillingyour head with all this
knowledge that you still haven'tactually gone and put into
practice.
Tim Newman (44:33):
Yeah, yeah, I and again, I love that you say that
you nothing ever happened ifpeople didn't don't do anything.
So you you can you can you canthink about it all you want, but
until you start doing it, it'syou you you haven't actually
developed the skill.
John Ball (44:47):
Yeah, yeah.
The C Fi poet Rumi sayssomething along the lines of
like the moon and stars turningyour head.
Well, you know, the life of theuniverse can be going on inside
your mind, but it's m we mustput stuff out into the world.
We must take action if we wantto see things change.
It's like it's not enough toknow it or to think about it.
We have to do it, we have tomove our feet and take action.
Tim Newman (45:11):
Exactly.
Well, John, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Where's the best place thatpeople can connect with you?
John Ball (45:18):
All right.
My website,presentinfluence.com, is is the
best place to connect with me.
You'll find uh there's a quizthere for your charisma.
You can see how good yourcharisma score is.
Um, you can check out of my mypodcast episodes, you can see
what programs I offer and um allthe other good stuff about me
is all on the websitepresentinfluence.com.
Tim Newman (45:37):
And I and I'll put those links in the show notes
for everybody.
But John, thank you so much forspending some time with us
today.
I really do appreciate it.
And I I I love the the wholeidea of of uh uh levity and and
adding humor to everything thatwe do.
So thank you.
John Ball (45:53):
It's been a pleasure.
Thanks, Tim.
Tim Newman (45:55):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidence
podcast.com to get your freeebooks, Top 21 Challenges for
Public Speakers, and how toovercome them.
You can also register for theForum for Public Speaking.
Always remember your voice hasa power changer level.
We're talking next to you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.