April 21, 2025 • 50 mins
What if the key to your next career move isn’t on a job board, but in a conversation you haven’t had yet?
In this episode of Speaking With Confidence, I sit down with career coach and author Michelle Schafer to explore how powerful communication, genuine curiosity, and intentional relationship-building can unlock career growth. Whether you're navigating a job search, considering a transition, or mentoring young professionals, this conversation will shift how you think about networking.
Michelle opens up about her own career journey—leaving behind 18 years in financial services and finding her most fulfilling role not through applications, but through a bold conversation she almost didn’t have. Her story speaks to anyone who’s ever let imposter syndrome hold them back from reaching out.
We dive deep into the mindset behind effective communication and what it means to approach conversations with confidence and purpose. This isn’t about “selling yourself”—it’s about creating meaningful interactions built on curiosity, follow-up, and being genuinely interested in others. From preparing for a networking event to turning everyday chats into career opportunities, Michelle offers strategies that turn soft skills into superpowers.
In this episode, you’ll learn how to:
- Reframe networking as connection, not a transaction
- Communicate effectively by asking better questions
- Turn conversations into career breakthroughs
- Overcome limiting beliefs that block outreach
- Build confidence through preparation and follow-up
- Tap into the “hidden job market” where 80% of opportunities live
- Embrace interpersonal skills as key tools for professional development
If you're ready to ditch the script, speak with confidence, and build relationships that move your career forward this episode is for you.
Download a free chapter of Michelle’s book, Cultivating Career Growth: Navigating Transitions with a Purpose at mschafercoaching.ca
For more episodes that help you become a powerful communicator, visit timnewmanspeaks.com and explore tools and free resources to level up your communication skills.
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
Speaking With Confidence
Formula for Public Speaking
Facebook
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim (00:08):
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast
dedicated to helping you unlockthe power of effective public
speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Powerful communicator, I wantto thank each and every one of
you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
(00:29):
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Michelle is a career coachspecializing in career
transition and leadershipdevelopment.
She helps mid-careerprofessionals who feel
directionless take action toland careers that energize them.
Michelle, welcome to the show.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation today, and
you'll be happy to know it'll be70 degrees today, which is very
, very different than when wetalked a few weeks ago.
Michelle (00:50):
It really was, tim.
Thank you so much for having meas a guest on the show, and I'm
glad to hear that your snow hasdisappeared.
That was a shock for you all.
Tim (00:59):
It really was, and let me just show you what we were
dealing with a couple weeks agoin terms of the snowstorm, my
goodness.
So this picture is rightoutside my door.
You can see my finger takingthe picture up here.
This was Wednesday morning,like right before we spoke, gosh
(01:23):
.
And again, this is in HiltonHead, south Carolina, so we
don't get snow, no, and what'seven more surprising than this,
this is the stairs to my officeon Friday.
This is about noon on Friday,actually, gosh, and they had
iced over, so it looks like snow, but it's really ice, and so,
(01:44):
you know, we don't have any snowremoval systems here and I mean
, I couldn't get into my officeuntil, you know, sunday
afternoon.
And you know, as we talked, youknow, when doing this, that
really, you know, sets me backso far, you know, had to cancel
things and you wouldn't knowit's.
(02:04):
You know it's even worse what'sthat?
so I get into my office monday.
Obviously there I have nocontrol over some of this stuff.
Uh, there's an update to the tothe operating system.
Okay, so I update the operatingsystem monday, monday night, so
so I'm not losing time there.
I get in tuesday and somepeople that I canceled last week
(02:26):
.
Before I scheduled for Tuesday,wednesday, I was out no.
Michelle (02:32):
I was scheduled for Tuesday, wednesday, thursday.
I was out of town.
Tim (02:34):
Oh my goodness All of a sudden, my camera and my
microphone would not connect.
Michelle (02:40):
Oh gosh, it was rebelling against the snow.
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, it wasrebelling against the snow.
Tim (02:45):
Oh my gosh, and I don't have phone numbers, which to me
I don't know.
If I told you this, I need yourphone number.
Yes, because I'm a talker, I'llsend you an email, but I would,
especially when you have thingscome up.
I would much rather just giveyou a quick call or text message
and say hey look, I'm sorry,this is what's going on, and
that way I'm not wondering didyou get it?
(03:05):
Did you not get it?
Michelle (03:07):
Exactly, exactly.
Tim (03:08):
Oh, but I was, so I lost.
Oh no, and I'm driving myselfnuts, and yeah, I've got other
stuff I can do, but this is whatI like doing no-transcript.
Michelle (03:49):
Right, you know you have these conversations and you
know when, when you invest inthe relationship, it turns into
something really beautiful.
So it's so wonderful to hearthat.
Tim (03:54):
Yeah, it is and, and.
Again, this is how we connectedand, and, um, how, and?
Just think about this.
You know you're're gonna betalking to my daughter doing
some, maybe doing some work withher, just because of this
connection as well.
Michelle (04:08):
So this is the power of this it really is like you,
and the thing that I've alwaysbeen amazed at over you know,
not just the course of my career, but I mean like just the
course of my life is you neverknow where one.
You know where one conversationis going to lead and you know
you might think, oh, like Idon't know if I'm going to get
(04:29):
anything from this conversation.
Or you know, for me, because Iwork with people who are looking
for work, it's easy to think,oh, this person I'm going to
talk to, what are they going tobe able to truly do to help me?
find my next job and you mightbe surprised at what comes from
that conversation.
I think a large part of it isbeing open.
You know it's being open andbeing curious and and going into
(04:52):
the conversation not with alimiting mindset, you know,
which is, oh, this person can'thelp me, so therefore you know
nothing will come of this.
That's a limiting mindset, butwhen we go into just even
regular conversations with youknow what we'll call that growth
mindset, where we can see likeopportunities as opposed to
(05:12):
limitations.
You just never know where thoseconversations are going to go
and they could lead to somethingthat's really productive,
really positive, and something,as you're seeing with some of
the people that you've beenworking with.
Tim (05:24):
These are long lasting relationships and in some cases
even turn into friendships, andat the start it was you know you
didn't know where it was goingto go so amazing to hear that it
is, um, and you know, when you,when you look at it again from
from a bigger picture, you againtake a step back and not think
about any type of interaction ofwhat can it do for me, but look
(05:47):
at it from that biggerperspective Because, remember,
it's not always about you, ever.
I mean, let's get away fromthat and look at things from a
bigger picture and how we can beof service to others, to others
, or, you know, let's just seewhere, see where it goes.
I mean exactly, you know youcould have a conversation like I
(06:09):
, like I did last week with withan individual um and it was
great talking to him, but therewas from from the podcast
perspective.
There just wasn't theconnection there, there wasn't.
Michelle (06:20):
Yeah and that's great, that's okay, it is, it really
is.
Yeah, I, I mean it's.
It's interesting, as we'retalking about this and just you
know the power of relationshipsand connections and and
certainly how when we, when webuild on those relationships, it
also builds our own confidence.
Like to have more conversations.
A friend of mine in anetworking group that I was part
(06:42):
of years ago, like when Istarted as a career coach, I was
part of this businessnetworking group and he had this
saying and I repeat it toclients you know, today I'm
going to share it with yourlisteners right now which is,
you know, think about networkingconversations.
And networking conversationsare really like you know, you're
having conversations with thepurpose of, you know, exploring
(07:03):
possibilities and maybe learningabout organizations.
But he said, approach it withthe interaction in mind.
It's all about the interactionand not about the transaction.
So the transaction is I'm justgoing to go and, like Tim, I'm
going to have a conversationwith you.
So you know, I'm just going tohave this conversation with Tim,
I'm going to learn information,it's going to help my job
(07:24):
search, end of story, nothingelse that happens.
That's a transactionalrelationship.
But when you believe in theinteraction, you're going
sharing your progress andcourses that you've taken or
(07:47):
advice that that person gave you.
Let them know what you did withit.
That's all about theinteraction.
The interaction is therelationship and when we
approach these conversationswith the interaction in mind,
they can go to really greatplaces and sometimes be very,
very surprising.
Tim (08:03):
Yeah, and especially when you're dealing with young
professionals, I think, as I'mseeing, I say older, you know, I
think I kind of learned.
I've always known it, but Ikind of learned it when I was
probably about 30.
Michelle (08:19):
Okay, there's a difference between knowing
something and learning something.
Tim (08:23):
right, exactly Because okay yeah, you know, people told you
that.
But when you learn and you seeeither wow, if I had done that
would have gotten a differentresult, or I did that for the
first time and this was theresult that I got.
So there's a difference betweenknowing and learning right.
Michelle (08:39):
Exactly and then practicing Practicing what
you're learning.
Tim (08:43):
And then practicing, practicing what you're learning.
How do we, you know, get this,get that idea embedded in young
professionals' minds so thatthey don't have to go through
some of the things that we'vegone through?
I mean, you've got kids, I'vegot kids.
Yeah, you know, we do the bestwe can, we teach them and we see
them making the same mistakesthat we made, even though we've
(09:04):
told them don't do that or dothis, right, and.
But somebody down the road,next door neighbor, tells them
the exact same thing and it'slike the the the best thing
they've ever heard.
So how can, how can we get, youknow, young professionals to
understand, you know, it's okayto talk to somebody, it's it's
okay be.
Go into a conversation with nogoal, no agenda, see where it
(09:27):
goes, and then go into aconversation with a goal and
agenda and see which one is abetter conversation.
Michelle (09:33):
Yeah, I mean, that's such a great question because
you know to your point, youlearn more about, you know the
power of having theseconversations, like when, you
know, when you were 30.
And you know, I would say thesame for me.
I mean, I didn't start anynetworking activity until I was
about like 34 or 35.
And the only reason was becauseof something that happened that
(09:56):
necessitated it.
I lost my job, I was thrust inthe job market, so I really
needed to explore some, someother alternatives fast.
But this is something that wecan build at a much earlier
stage in life.
And you know, if I think backto you know, things that would
have helped me when I was ayoung professional, young adult,
(10:19):
to be able to step into theseconversations with confidence.
It would have been having somekind of you know framework and
you know to your point.
Maybe you don't know exactlywhere the conversation is going
to go, but I find that and I'mgoing to speak with about my
adult clients now for a second Ifind that people avoid having
(10:41):
conversations because they justdon't know what to do.
They don't think that they'regoing to be good at it.
And they don't't know what todo.
They don't think that they'regoing to be good at it and they
don't really know how to do it,they don't really feel like they
have the skills.
So then they just avoid theconversations completely.
And in the context of lookingfor work, that can be disastrous
, because having theseconversations and building
relationships when you'relooking for work forms, I'm
(11:03):
going to say like upwards of 80%of the amount of time that you
need to invest in finding thatnext job.
So it's more giving people thepermission to be able to reach
out, but with, you know, with aframework.
So when I'm talking about that,it's not even necessarily
establishing what the outcome isgoing to be, but it's thinking
(11:27):
about putting the other personfirst.
And so if you're a person thatnaturally is curious, you know
likes to ask questions ofyourself or of other people,
that's going to be a skill thatyou can contribute to these
conversations earlier in life.
So I would, you know, I'd sayto all of your listeners before
(11:50):
you have a conversation withsomeone and this is even just
you know you could be talkingabout, you know, like with a
friend, or maybe you have like anew neighbor or somebody at
school that you're meeting forthe first time ask questions of
the other person, and so I findit can be really helpful and
less daunting to be in theconversation when you've thought
about the kind of questionsthat you would want to ask.
(12:12):
So, for example, let's sayyou're going to a group event
and you know you're not reallysure, like you know, who you're
going to meet or where theconversation is going to go.
Think about those questions youcan ask, like you know.
So you know.
So why are you here?
Like what attracted you here?
And like, well, what are youhoping to get out of today?
And how did you get here?
(12:32):
You know, and you know, askingquestions about the other person
, you're going to learn thingsabout them and it's a great way
to keep the conversation going.
And then you see where theconversation goes.
You know one thing leads toanother.
Think about bringing thosequestions to the conversation.
You're going to learn about theother person.
You're going to learn, you know, something new that might help
(12:54):
you with your own careeraspirations, and then it becomes
a really useful conversation tohave.
But having that framework andthe preparation beforehand
really builds the confidence.
Tim (13:06):
It really does.
And I'm so glad you said that,because I'm somebody that harps
on preparation and research andpreparation and research and
pretty much everything that wedo, or everything that I do or
talk about.
You know, think about it fromthe perspective of if you're
going to go into, let's just usethat example as a networking
event and you don't have anyidea of who's going to be there.
(13:28):
Like you know most most I meannetworking events take on all
different kinds of shapes andsizes and and that sort of thing
.
Michelle (13:36):
But if you're going to your industry networking event.
Tim (13:38):
Okay, who do you think is going to be there?
If you're going to, you know atown, you know a business
networking event you know who'smembers of the chamber?
Michelle (13:49):
Yeah, exactly.
Tim (13:49):
Think about those types of things and approach from there,
because if you walk in cold andyou're not comfortable talking
to people, that's again.
You get right back into this.
Okay, I'm here, I don't knowwho's here, I don't like talking
to people, I don't know whereto start.
Okay, you're going to standthere for five minutes, you may
go over, get a couple of bitesof cheese and a drink, and then
(14:09):
you're out of here and you'vejust you've just lost an
opportunity.
Michelle (14:14):
Oh yeah, many opportunities probably.
Tim (14:18):
And so that's, that's, that's part of it.
And and obviously, uh, I'msomebody who has a lot of
questions and and I, you know, II don't take myself very
seriously and I tell you know,my clients, I'm okay with being
the stupidest person in the room.
I really am, because if I don'tunderstand something or if I
(14:38):
want to know something, I'm notgoing to just wither, I'm going
to ask, ask a question or, youknow, try and get the
information or what have you,because I'm probably not the
number one, I'm probably not theonly one that has that question
.
Michelle (14:52):
Yes, exactly, and you know it's interesting, like you
know, as we're talking about,you know ask, asking questions.
I mean, you know, yeah, ofcourse we can learn so much, but
you know it's it's.
You know it's just continuingthat conversation, like like I
find like I don't know if you'veever gone to an event, tim,
where you know you walk in theroom and somebody like like
(15:13):
almost thrust their businesscard in your face, starts
talking about hey, like this isabout me, this is what I can do
for you and it's all about me,me, me.
So you know, when you're at anevent especially, I would invite
your listeners like turn itaround.
Actually it's not about you.
(15:34):
So maybe your backstory is youwant to learn about a particular
sector, or you want to learnabout a particular career path,
or you want to learn you knowabout.
You know, like how somebody wasable to enter a particular job.
Make it all about the otherperson and less about you.
Know about you know, like howsomebody was able to enter a
particular job.
Make it all about the otherperson and less about you.
And so you know what can makepeople you know comfortable and
can really build that confidenceis, think about being at an
(15:56):
event, like just having aconversation in day to day life.
And the thing is, you know, alot of my clients will say but
Michelle, like I don't know howto do this, I've never had the
network.
And the thing is, you know, alot of my clients will say but
Michelle, like I don't know howto do this, I've never had the
network.
And I said, okay, let's framethis in a different way.
I said do you haveconversations?
And they say well, yes, I saidhave you ever had a conversation
(16:18):
with somebody that you did notknow at the time that you met
them?
And and they said, well, yeah,actually that happens all the
time.
Like you know, there's you knowsomebody new like sitting
beside me in class, or you knowlike there's a new neighbor, and
I say hi, and we start to havea conversation and I say so,
you're already doing it, youknow, and that's something that
(16:39):
can really, you know, helpindividuals speak with
confidence, because when youreframe something big like
networking, it seems really, youknow, daunting, because the
word tends to create a lot ofanxiety for people a lot of fear
.
But when you reframe it to say,networking is really just about
(17:00):
having conversations.
It's about doing researchthrough conversation, because
you do want to learn about theother person, about their
organization, about you knowwhat their path is, but you
already have conversations everysingle day.
This is something that wealready have a skill on.
So I find when we, when wereframe something that seems
really big and really like we'refearful of it into something
(17:24):
that's more familiar to us, itjust gives that way in to allow
people to have theseconversations.
And you know and I'm going tobe honest here, tim so you know,
you said you learned this skillat 30.
I said I learned this at age 34.
I made a ton of mistakes when Istarted, you know, just
(17:45):
reaching out and havingconversations.
It was clunky, it was awkward.
I really don't think I knewwhat I was doing, you know.
But I was trying my very best.
But the thing is, the more Idid it, first of all I was
learning, I was adjusting myapproach, I was bringing new
questions.
I was, you know, I was justlike in the conversation in a
(18:07):
different way, but it wasbuilding my confidence too,
because the more you know, youknow as well like.
the more you do something, themore comfortable you're going to
feel with it, and having thesekind of conversations and
building relationships fallsexactly in that category.
Tim (18:22):
Exactly, and the better you're going to get.
You know, again, fulldisclosure.
Going to a networking event forme is like, yeah, I mean it's
it's.
I hate doing it, I don't wantto do it, it's, you know, for
any number of reasons, I mean,I'm, I'm, naturally I'm an
introvert intro, but if we again, if we reframe it and look at
(18:44):
it from a different perspectiveand understand there are certain
things that we have to get overand do and look at it like you
said, you know, make it aboutother people.
I'm not going to say that itmakes it easy, but it makes it
easier and a little bit morecomfortable for you.
And again, doing it, you haveto do it, you can't talk about
(19:08):
it, you have to actually go outand do it and then do it again,
and then do it again, and that'show you build the confidence.
Michelle (19:16):
It totally does.
You know, you highlightedsomething there, Tim, which I
think is really important.
You know, like, the differencebetween thinking about it you
know, like doing the research,you know, like who's going to be
at this event, who am I goingto be talking to?
Like doing your preparationbeforehand with your questions,
all of that is really important.
But if you don't do anythingabout it, then you know, then
(19:39):
nothing builds.
And you know, the one thingthat I've come to learn about
the power of having theseconversations, that I've come to
learn about the power of havingthese conversations, the power
of building relationships, is,you know, it works because
people love to talk aboutthemselves.
We just need to ask.
And so that's where you know.
Back to what we were talkingabout earlier, like make it
(20:01):
about the interaction, not thetransaction.
Like ask about the other person, come with your questions,
really be curious and want tolearn about them.
Well, people are generallyhappy to share.
And what I find too, because Iget asked this question, like
what if I go with all myquestions and I never get a
chance to talk about myself?
And that's where the reframingcan help as well.
(20:23):
I said so.
Let's say you're talking toyour friend and you say to your
friend oh, tell me what you didthis weekend, tell me how you
dealt with all of the snow thatcame.
You know what challenges didyou experience?
Like you're going to ask yourfriend all kinds of interesting
questions.
Well, at some point in theconversation your friend is
going to say you know what?
(20:43):
I've been talking a lot aboutmyself here, like, so tell me
about you.
Like, what did?
you do this weekend?
How did you deal with the snow?
And?
And so that's the other part ofthe preparation is you will
want to have prepared like somekind of way to talk about
yourself when the conversationcomes back.
The difference here is thatyou're not leading with talking
(21:04):
about yourself.
You're leading with finding outabout the other person first.
Tim (21:08):
Yeah, and again, that's so important.
But even if you don't get achance to talk about yourself,
that's okay.
Michelle (21:15):
Yeah, that is okay, exactly.
Tim (21:17):
Because now you've learned about these other people and
then you can still reach out andyou can say you know, steve, it
was great meeting you the othernight at the networking event
I'm not sure if you have time.
Maybe we could grab lunchsometime next week.
I'd like to talk to you aboutyou know what you do, or you
(21:40):
know this business or some ofthe things I'm doing that maybe
we could work together.
Whatever, it is Right, but justbecause you don't have time to
talk about yourself in thatmoment, that's okay.
Yeah, and you have to becomfortable enough in your own
skin which leads to a different,different point that that
that's okay.
Michelle (21:56):
Yeah, yeah, I find, like at events, like events can
be very fast paced so we caneasily forget you know
information that maybe welearned about someone before
moving on to the nextconversation.
And, tim, I think your strategyis such an important one
because it's you know, it's notjust about meeting people and
(22:17):
having the conversation.
The follow-up is reallyimportant.
So when you reach out and youthank that person, like just for
their time, for meeting withthem and asking for more of a
conversation, that's where youcan really deepen the
relationship.
Like at events, if you get twoor three minutes with somebody,
that's kind of long in a lot ofcases because you know you'll,
(22:40):
you know things.
Things tend to move veryquickly.
So it's really important to justtake a pause, like after you've
met someone, like get theirbusiness card.
I find a really nice littletrick is if somebody does have a
card I know not everybody hascards these days but if somebody
has a business card, flip itover on the back like jot a few
little notes about what youlearned about that person, just
(23:02):
to kind of lock it in.
Or take out your phone andcreate a little notes file where
you've got you know the peoplethat you're meeting a bit of
information about them.
That way it will just make iteasier for you to reach out and
and you can pick up and showthem that you were really paying
attention, like somebody that Iknew from a long time ago that
(23:23):
did this so well and you'regoing to be surprised, tim, it
was my dentist.
So my dentist and you know,think of your dentist.
You see your dentist.
Like what?
like twice a year and I'mconvinced what my dentist did
after I left is based on all ofthe different things that we
were talking about.
Which is harder?
You know, you've got apparatusin your mouth or cleaning, but
(23:46):
you're still havingconversations.
I'm convinced that she went, youknow, into her office and she
made a few notes about me andwhat I was sharing, because when
I went and saw her months laterit was like no time at a lab.
She had asked me questions thatfollowed up on what it was that
I shared before.
She was really skilled atbuilding relationships and she
(24:07):
was not.
She was not looking for work,there was no like she didn't
really have to do that really atthe end of the day and she sees
like hundreds of patients overthe course of a year.
But because she took that time,it just signaled to me that she
values the relationship, thatshe pays attention, and so you
know for all of the listeners,you know when you are talking to
(24:29):
people, like, pay attention tothose those little details about
people's lives, about whatthey're interested in, about
what's happening with them, andand do integrate it into future
conversations.
It just shows that you'resomebody who really likes to
build relationships and that'san excellent, excellent quality
to have.
That will serve you in yourcareer very well, but it will
(24:50):
serve you in life as well.
Tim (24:52):
Yeah, being known as a connector is a good thing.
Michelle (24:57):
It truly is, and it's not easy, you know.
I think some people just have anatural tendency to do that
Like, oh, like you should talkto this person, like you would
have a lot in common.
But you know, I think it's askill that any of us can do.
And it's really about beingpresent, paying attention to
what's happening in the momentand getting curious.
(25:19):
No-transcript If I wasn'tsomebody that valued
relationships or even thoughtabout that, I wouldn't have even
made that suggestion.
So it's just about payingattention to the cues, like
(25:41):
what's happening around us, andI find we do this in our
day-to-day life.
Maybe we're not aware of it,but it's something that we do.
Like, for example, maybe myneighbor is talking about I
don't know, like wanting torepaint the inside of their
house, and I say like and I'llsay, oh, you know I use this,
you know this company and theywere awesome.
(26:01):
Like, maybe you want to reachout to them Like that would be a
connection that I've made forthat other person.
I'm not like thinking every dayabout doing these kinds of
things, but in the moment thoseopportunities present themselves
.
So it's capturing thoseopportunities and using them to
enrich somebody else's life andand people will remember that.
Tim (26:21):
Exactly, they do.
They do so.
So you, you've had two, twomajor um career shifts.
Yes, what was that like?
What did you learn?
And how are some of thosethings related to, like a young
professional just starting theircareer and looking for work?
Because it's hard, it's hard.
Michelle (26:41):
It's hard, it's like it's a tough job market.
It's you know, looking for workrequires a lot of work and you
know a number of people andyoung professionals included,
because I have worked with someclients who are like just at a
university, who are looking toestablish their careers and not
really sure, like, whatdirection to go in, and the
(27:04):
mistake that a lot of peoplemake like even even my adult
clients who are almost close toretirement and they're looking
for a new path it's it's justlooking online like it's it's,
you know, confining the jobsearch to like just searching
online.
And you know, when I wentthrough my two big career
transitions I mean I worked fora large national bank.
(27:27):
I was in financial services for18 years.
Actually, it was the job I hadright out of high school for 18
years.
I was restructured, my positionwas eliminated because of a
merger and I went intonot-for-profit and the same
thing happened seven years afterthat.
Because of funding changes, myposition was eliminated.
And I remember in the beginning, when I first started looking
(27:49):
for work, I did, I just confinedmy search to online, like what
jobs are posted, what jobs areavailable, which is a really
passive approach because, you'rejust kind of waiting for things
to happen and positions to beposted.
But the biggest learning that Ihad that will serve young
professionals really well, willcertainly serve like more
(28:10):
established, like maybemid-career professionals very
well as well is recognizing thatthere are so many opportunities
that will never get posted yesand, in fact, you know, this is
something that was a big shiftsince the days of the pandemic,
which, like now, are like fiveyears ago, where a lot of
(28:32):
organizations are gravitating tofilling positions through their
network.
They're not posting them online,they're using their network and
they're using their employeebase to identify some really
great fits.
So if you're a youngprofessional, like you know
you're, you're just out ofschool, you're establishing your
career, just knowing that notall the positions are online is
(28:54):
a huge learning, which meansthat you need to be building
relationships, you need to bereaching out, and so, you know,
one of the things that I learnedto do was, you know, starting
to reflect on you know, what'simportant to me in the kind of
organizations that I want to bepart of, and then brainstorming
a list of those organizationsthat I would be interested in
(29:15):
just learning more about.
Again, it's about being curious.
They may not necessarily have aposition that's posted, but
actually reaching out to, youknow, individuals in those
companies to ask some questionsand to learn more.
And so the even bigger learningthat if everybody you know
listening today, you knowremembers this, this will be a
(29:37):
big.
Actually, there's two things,two big things that I'm hoping
people will take away.
One is to remember that youknow your network is not just
the people in front of you,meaning the people you're
immediately connected to, likepeople from school, or friends
and family, or neighbors, orpeople at the gym.
Those are people that are inour immediate circle.
(29:58):
What's important to remember asa first step is there's
hundreds of people behind eachperson that we know, which I'm
going to call looking throughthe network and not just at it.
So if you're you know, lookingto, you know, learn about a
particular career path, you know, not just looking at your
(30:18):
friends and family, but askingwho does your friends and family
know that maybe can give you aconversation, becomes really
important.
First of all, it widens yourcircle, but you also get to
build relationships with peoplewho you don't really know.
So that, like that, was thefirst big learning from all of
my transitions.
But the second one this one ishuge is, every time you talk to
(30:43):
somebody whether you're askingthem to look at your resume, or
you're asking them to at yourresume, or you're asking them to
you know help you betterunderstand what other courses
you might need to take in orderto get into a particular career
path or job.
It's the importance of, withevery conversation, ask who else
in that person's circle theywould be comfortable in
(31:04):
connecting you with, and when wedo that, we're naturally going
to get to talk to new people,which means we're naturally
going to find out about otherorganizations, other career
paths.
With every conversation thatcan lead to a brand new
conversation, and the power ofthat is like exponential like
there's no price tag on thatkind of network building.
Tim (31:27):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
And the whole idea of reachingout to people at different
organizations and just having aninformational interview five or
ten minutes, it's so critical.
And one of the issues thatpeople complain to me about is
(31:49):
they'll reach out, they'll emailsomebody and not not hear back.
And I say, well, did you callthem, did you?
Yeah, was your emailprofessionally written?
exactly you know, were youasking something that was
unreasonable?
Did you, did you give them anopportunity to an opportunity to
say no if they don't have thetime?
But I think it's so important.
(32:10):
You know, the follow-up is soimportant.
Michelle (32:13):
It really is Pick up the phone.
Tim (32:15):
I mean I say pick up the phone like it's back in 1990.
We actually had to pick up thephone.
Michelle (32:19):
It still works.
Tim (32:20):
It does, but call somebody you know, dial the number and
actually talk to them, becausethat, to me, is so much more
personal.
You know, a lot of times, youknow, emails come through and
number one if I don'tnecessarily know the person
right off, or if the subjectline isn't something that's
(32:43):
going to hit me right away, Imay not delete it, but I may not
actually read it or answer itExactly.
And then it gets further,further, further further down
the email line.
Michelle (32:53):
Yeah.
Tim (32:54):
It may get lost, but if you pick up the phone and you and
you reach out, I find that youknow most professionals.
If if you come at them with aprofessional ask in a reasonable
way and they've got time foryou, they will help.
Michelle (33:10):
Yeah, for sure you know, and, tim, you've just
highlighted something reallyimportant there, which is you
know the importance of like evenbeing prepared to reach out,
like we were talking earlierabout, like how you can be
prepared for the actualconversation, but it's also
important to be prepared just tosimply reach out to people.
So, whether that's crafting areally professional ask, that is
(33:35):
very clear about you know thepurpose for you reaching out,
because I find, if there's nopurpose in there, people wonder
who is this person?
Why are they reaching out to me?
Why do they want to spend timewith me?
So so be clear about you knowwhat, what you're hoping that
the other person can help with.
But also be prepared, if youare going to be picking up the
phone, like you know, you don'twant to just be winging it and
(33:57):
umming and ahhing through thewhole thing, which is not as
professional.
So so you know, having anapproach that shows that you
know you're valuing thatperson's time as a gift, that it
is a professional reach out,you're going to be making a
really positive impression.
And there's one thing I'd liketo highlight especially for, you
(34:17):
know, for young professionalslistening, you might be thinking
hold on, like how can I justreach out to somebody at a
company like they don't know me,especially if that person is
far more senior than I am?
And if you're a youngprofessional, almost everybody
that you're going to be talkingto to explore you know career
paths or learn aboutorganizations almost everybody's
(34:39):
going to be more senior thanyou because they've had years of
professional experience.
So I will oftentimes hear fromclients and again these are
mid-career professionals whoalso struggle with this they say
, well, how can I reach out tothe CEO or the executive
(34:59):
director or the vice presidentor the regional manager or
anybody in a senior position orthe regional manager or anybody
in a senior position?
And what I hear from my clientsis they say that person is too
busy, like they're busy leadingthe company.
Why would they talk to me?
And and I call that a limitingbelief because it's an
assumption, it's a judgment,like like if we believe that
(35:23):
we'll never reach out tosomebody more senior because in
our head we've alreadydiscounted it, we haven't even
given them a chance.
We already are assuming, oh,they're going to say no because,
like, why would they want tomeet with me?
But here's the reality.
The reality is theseindividuals, even if they have
like a big title beside theirname, they're human first of all
(35:45):
, they're just a person whohappens to lead the company.
They've also had to do a fairamount of networking themselves
to get to that senior role andbecause they're human, they want
to help.
You know, most people really dowant to help and so when we,
when we reframe that, it justgives us a way in, like.
(36:06):
I'll tell you a short littlestory that emphasizes this and
this is something I share withlots of my clients because it's
a true story.
So back in the days, you know,before I got into coaching and I
was looking for work, one of myconnections, a former colleague
of mine, had put me in touchwith somebody who you know was
senior.
This person was leading ourtouch with somebody who you know
(36:26):
was senior.
This person was leading ourcommunity foundation, which you
know gives grants to differentorganizations within the city
and you know, being in Ottawa,canada, there's a number of
not-for-profits here and thisperson referred me on and said
oh, you know what?
You should talk to the chiefmedical officer of health for
the city of Ottawa, becausethere's always things happening
(36:48):
at the city.
Maybe there's an opportunityfor you.
And at the time I actuallydidn't do anything about that
suggestion because in my head Ihad that limiting belief of this
is the chief medical officer ofhealth, who would be
responsible for every singlemajor health crisis that the
city has.
I said, why, like?
(37:08):
To myself.
I said why would he want tomeet with me?
He's way too busy.
So I didn't do anything aboutit for weeks, but I kind of kept
thinking about it, I keptcoming back and eventually I
just said to myself you knowwhat?
I have nothing to lose.
Let's say he turns me down or hedoesn't respond.
I'm no further behind.
I could be very far ahead,though, so I, you know, mustered
(37:29):
up my courage.
I phoned and got his assistant.
His assistant booked me in forsome time the following week.
Well, not only did thisindividual like have time, he
gave me like 30 minutes of histime and we talked about you
know what was going on in thecity.
He asked me a number ofquestions about my experience
and, at the end, talked aboutyou know what was going on in
the city.
He asked me a number ofquestions about my experience
and at the end, he said you knowwhat?
(37:50):
He said nothing's happeningright now in the public health
area, but he said I know, likeyou know he's, he's been around
for a while.
He said I know that thingschange pretty quickly.
So he said send me your resume,I'll give it to human resources
.
You never know what will happen.
Well, tim, two weeks later, Igot a call from our Ottawa
(38:10):
Public Health Human Resourcesand they said you know what,
like, we have a need to havesomebody like plan some medical
conferences that are coming tothe city.
It's a contract opportunity.
Would you like to be considered?
Tim (38:22):
Well, the answer was yes.
Michelle (38:24):
And I interviewed.
I got the job, turned out to bethe best employment experience
I had had, Certainly one of thebest, and I would have never
known about that if I had to getin the way.
Like this, person is human andthey potentially could help you.
Tim (38:51):
When you reach out, when you plan and prepare and you
have a really professional ask,you know chances are that person
will want to help and that thatoffer of health might actually
lead to a job exactly, exactly,and you, that's that's so
important to get and understand,and uh, everything about that
that story is is, I mean youcould pick lesson after lesson
(39:14):
after lesson and uh, at anypoint, if you hadn't done
something, what would havehappened?
Right, yeah?
Michelle (39:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Tim (39:24):
You just never know yeah.
Michelle (39:27):
And here's the thing.
Tim (39:28):
Even if you called and he said no one, that's okay,
Exactly.
Or if you called and he saidyou know what, I really don't
have time, but I know who doeshave some time.
Yeah, so now you've got twodifferent people that you've
interacted with or or more.
So it's you know, just justjust dial a number.
Michelle (39:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know what you, what you
mentioned there kind of fallsinto the category of what's the
worst that can happen.
So I reach out what's the worstthat can happen?
Oh, the person says no, okay.
So you know, is that going toset you back?
No, because you haven't lostanything, but you can gain a lot
.
So you know, I find you know,especially with with having
(40:10):
conversations, there's there's alot of these like the limiting
beliefs and the limiting beliefs.
Nobody's imposing those on us.
We are standing in our own way,and so when we get out of our
own way and we take onapproaches that allow us to
reframe those limiting beliefs,it allows us to move forward.
(40:31):
We can take positive,productive action and maybe that
will build into a relationshipthat is going to pay dividends
for years to come.
You just never know until youtake a chance and you do it.
Tim (40:44):
Exactly.
Is there anything else thataudience should be thinking
about as they go through the jobsearch and networking process?
Michelle (40:51):
You know, I mean, we've talked about so much,
haven't we?
And we've had some like reallykey takeaways.
You know, like if you don't ask, you don't get.
Certainly you know.
The other thing I guess I'llleave everybody with is you know
we did talk about theimportance of preparation, and
you know I like to think aboutengaging in networking activity
(41:12):
as like going on vacation Maybenot as much fun, but the
elements are the same which isyou need to have a destination,
meaning you need to have apurpose.
Like you know, we generallydon't just reach out just for
fun, like usually there's an aim, um, but you definitely need to
have a plan.
Like imagine if you went onvacation and you had no plan.
It would be a disaster.
(41:32):
It's the same with networking.
And so you know I I wanteverybody to know that that you
might be listening to this andyou might be thinking, but,
michelle, you're like you knowhow to do this, like you're a
coach, you help people with thisvery thing, like how to build
networking strategies andapproaches, and feel confident.
Know that when I first startedout with this at the age of 34,
(41:57):
I was not confident it everyconversation I thought that was
a mess.
Like I don't know if that wentwell, like what's going to come
out of it.
I really didn't know what I wasdoing in the beginning and my
confidence built over time fromhaving done it.
So I have seen it with clientsthat are very hesitant to have
(42:17):
conversations one-on-one or inevents with people.
Have conversations one-on-one orin events with people and when
they are ready to take that stepand they start doing it, the
power of it is like, just like.
There's no price tag.
It leads to new connections, itleads to more information, it
leads to jobs.
And so if you're thinking toyourself, well, I can't do this,
(42:39):
I'm not really good at it,maybe you have more of an
introverted communication styleand it's hard to be in
conversations, know thateverybody can do this.
With reflection, withpreparation, with practice, it
can be something that you can do.
(43:00):
Practice it can be somethingthat you can do.
You just need to believe inyourself and know that there's a
framework that can support youand can help to build your
confidence.
So some big lessons coming outof today.
Tim (43:13):
Yeah, and again, 100% correct.
And I would just add one thingI'm 56.
I'll be 57 here soon and Istill don't think I'm good at it
.
Because you know you go in andokay, wow, some of the things
(43:34):
that come out of my mouthsometimes you know they're
insane.
I mean, because that's just whoI am when I'm in the moment and
I'm talking and we're having agood time and we're doing these
different types of things.
But you have to be able to goback and look at it and say,
okay, well, you know, don't saythat again and you grow from it.
(43:54):
And it's okay Because, rememberthis, they're not judging you.
Michelle (44:03):
No, they're not and they're not judging you.
No, they're not and they don'twant you to fail either.
Tim (44:07):
Exactly, so everything's going to be okay.
Michelle (44:09):
Exactly.
Tim (44:13):
But this is a very exciting time for you.
It is your book.
Cultivating Career GrowthNavigating Transitions with a
Purpose was released on February6th.
Tell me about it, because I'vedone a book and I'll never do it
again.
It's a lot of work, isn't it,tim?
I'll never say never, butthere's no plan to ever do it
again.
But it's an exciting timebecause I mean to write a book
(44:38):
where people don't understand.
It's so much time, so mucheffort.
It is, and you know it's aheavy lift.
And then you've got the booktour.
You've got to go on and you'repromoting this and promoting
that and then finally it'sreleased.
And I'm just going to tell yousomething it doesn't stop.
Michelle (44:54):
It doesn't stop.
It's just the beginning, isn'tit?
It is so tell us about the book.
Tim (44:57):
So tell us about the book.
Michelle (44:58):
Sounds great.
Thank you so much for asking.
So my book is really meant togive a framework and a system
for individuals looking toexplore new career paths or find
new work because they've beendisplaced through restructuring
or other means.
Individuals are looking for ajob like whether it's because
(45:22):
they've lost their job suddenlyor whether they just don't feel
the love in their work anymoreand realize that they're meant
for more.
What I find people struggle withthe most is figuring out where
do you look, how do I know whatI'm looking for and you know
what is a plan or a strategythat's going to support me in
finding what it is that I reallyneed.
And so you know my book willtake readers through some
(45:46):
reflection, thinking about whatwork really energizes you, the
kind of companies that youreally enjoy working with, and
those deal breakers or thosenon-negotiables the things that
you have to have in your nextstep.
So it's part reflection, it'spart chapter.
I've got like some reflectionquestions and lines like built
(46:26):
right into the pages where youcan write in your notes, you can
write in your reflections, thethings that are important to you
from that particular chapterthat will help you form your job
search strategy.
So I'm really excited it's, youknow, it's a combination of not
just my framework but clientstories along the way and also
my own experience, because I'vegone through transition.
(46:49):
You know, I remember when I wentthrough my very first
transition, when I lost my jobafter 18 years, I needed support
, I needed a framework and Ineeded a guide to help me with
my next steps.
So I'm hoping my book will bethat.
I'm hoping that my book willsupport individuals and like and
be that guide and share thosestrategies and help people build
(47:11):
out their plan so that they'renot just applying for jobs, you
know, which tends to not be veryeffective, but that you have
like a real purpose to lookingfor work and, and you know,
similar to networking, likelooking for work is like going
on vacation too.
You need to have a target andyou absolutely need to have a
plan.
There's some similarities there.
(47:32):
So so a lot of what we'retalking about today appears in
my book and, yeah, I'm superexcited to see where this leads.
Tim (47:41):
That's so awesome, and where can people buy it?
Michelle (47:44):
So people can buy on Amazon.
If you are an e-book reader andyou have a Kindle, you can get
a Kindle version, the paperbackas well.
You can order on Amazon and youcan also, if you're interested
in just I'm going to say, tryingbefore you buy, you can go to
my website and you can get adownloadable free chapter from
(48:06):
my book so you can get a tastefor what the book is all about
and that will give you a sensefor you know what it is that I'm
talking about and you know,hopefully lead you to buy the
book.
So my website ismschafercoachingca.
There's a tab that is called mybook.
Mschafercoachingca.
There's a tab that is called myBook.
You just click on that.
You can sign up to receive thefree chapter and also stay in
(48:27):
touch with me to hear aboutother offerings that I will be
bringing forward after my bookis out in the world for a little
bit.
Tim (48:34):
That's awesome and I'll put that link in the show notes.
Excellent.
Where else can people find?
Michelle (48:39):
you, so you can find me on LinkedIn If you would like
to follow me or connect with me.
I post on career explorationand job search topics, I would
say at least four times a week,and so you know this topic of
having conversations andbuilding relationships is one
that I'm quite familiar withwriting on, so do look for me on
(49:01):
LinkedIn.
Building relationships is onethat I'm quite familiar with
writing on, so do look for me onLinkedIn.
Do you know?
Go to my website again.
It's mshafercoachingca.
I've got lots of resourcesthere and articles that I've
written that may help you inyour own exploration, and you
can learn more about my myservices as well.
So a number of different placesthat you can find me.
And if you feel motivated afterlistening today and you would
(49:22):
like to reach out and have aconversation with me my email is
michelle at mshafercoachingcayou can book a complimentary 30
minute discovery call with me,especially if you've got some
questions and some challengesand you just need a conversation
partner, feel free to reach outto me directly that way.
Tim (49:40):
A conversation partner feel free to reach out to me
directly that way, michelle,that's awesome.
Thank you so much for sharingthat and I will say make sure
you follow Michelle on LinkedInbecause she does put up really
good and valuable actionableinformation and it's phenomenal,
michelle.
But thank you so much forsharing such valuable
information with the SpeakingWith Confidence community.
(50:01):
I really do appreciate it.
Michelle (50:03):
Thank you so much, Jim , for having me today.
Tim (50:06):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free ebook Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them, andalso register for the Forum for
Public Speaking.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast
dedicated to helping you unlockthe power of effective public
speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Powerful communicator, I wantto thank each and every one of
you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
(00:29):
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Michelle is a career coachspecializing in career
transition and leadershipdevelopment.
She helps mid-careerprofessionals who feel
directionless take action toland careers that energize them.
Michelle, welcome to the show.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation today, and
you'll be happy to know it'll be70 degrees today, which is very
, very different than when wetalked a few weeks ago.
Michelle (00:50):
It really was, tim.
Thank you so much for having meas a guest on the show, and I'm
glad to hear that your snow hasdisappeared.
That was a shock for you all.
Tim (00:59):
It really was, and let me just show you what we were
dealing with a couple weeks agoin terms of the snowstorm, my
goodness.
So this picture is rightoutside my door.
You can see my finger takingthe picture up here.
This was Wednesday morning,like right before we spoke, gosh
(01:23):
.
And again, this is in HiltonHead, south Carolina, so we
don't get snow, no, and what'seven more surprising than this,
this is the stairs to my officeon Friday.
This is about noon on Friday,actually, gosh, and they had
iced over, so it looks like snow, but it's really ice, and so,
(01:44):
you know, we don't have any snowremoval systems here and I mean
, I couldn't get into my officeuntil, you know, sunday
afternoon.
And you know, as we talked, youknow, when doing this, that
really, you know, sets me backso far, you know, had to cancel
things and you wouldn't knowit's.
(02:04):
You know it's even worse what'sthat?
so I get into my office monday.
Obviously there I have nocontrol over some of this stuff.
Uh, there's an update to the tothe operating system.
Okay, so I update the operatingsystem monday, monday night, so
so I'm not losing time there.
I get in tuesday and somepeople that I canceled last week
(02:26):
.
Before I scheduled for Tuesday,wednesday, I was out no.
Michelle (02:32):
I was scheduled for Tuesday, wednesday, thursday.
I was out of town.
Tim (02:34):
Oh my goodness All of a sudden, my camera and my
microphone would not connect.
Michelle (02:40):
Oh gosh, it was rebelling against the snow.
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, it wasrebelling against the snow.
Tim (02:45):
Oh my gosh, and I don't have phone numbers, which to me
I don't know.
If I told you this, I need yourphone number.
Yes, because I'm a talker, I'llsend you an email, but I would,
especially when you have thingscome up.
I would much rather just giveyou a quick call or text message
and say hey look, I'm sorry,this is what's going on, and
that way I'm not wondering didyou get it?
(03:05):
Did you not get it?
Michelle (03:07):
Exactly, exactly.
Tim (03:08):
Oh, but I was, so I lost.
Oh no, and I'm driving myselfnuts, and yeah, I've got other
stuff I can do, but this is whatI like doing no-transcript.
Michelle (03:49):
Right, you know you have these conversations and you
know when, when you invest inthe relationship, it turns into
something really beautiful.
So it's so wonderful to hearthat.
Tim (03:54):
Yeah, it is and, and.
Again, this is how we connectedand, and, um, how, and?
Just think about this.
You know you're're gonna betalking to my daughter doing
some, maybe doing some work withher, just because of this
connection as well.
Michelle (04:08):
So this is the power of this it really is like you,
and the thing that I've alwaysbeen amazed at over you know,
not just the course of my career, but I mean like just the
course of my life is you neverknow where one.
You know where one conversationis going to lead and you know
you might think, oh, like Idon't know if I'm going to get
(04:29):
anything from this conversation.
Or you know, for me, because Iwork with people who are looking
for work, it's easy to think,oh, this person I'm going to
talk to, what are they going tobe able to truly do to help me?
find my next job and you mightbe surprised at what comes from
that conversation.
I think a large part of it isbeing open.
You know it's being open andbeing curious and and going into
(04:52):
the conversation not with alimiting mindset, you know,
which is, oh, this person can'thelp me, so therefore you know
nothing will come of this.
That's a limiting mindset, butwhen we go into just even
regular conversations with youknow what we'll call that growth
mindset, where we can see likeopportunities as opposed to
(05:12):
limitations.
You just never know where thoseconversations are going to go
and they could lead to somethingthat's really productive,
really positive, and something,as you're seeing with some of
the people that you've beenworking with.
Tim (05:24):
These are long lasting relationships and in some cases
even turn into friendships, andat the start it was you know you
didn't know where it was goingto go so amazing to hear that it
is, um, and you know, when you,when you look at it again from
from a bigger picture, you againtake a step back and not think
about any type of interaction ofwhat can it do for me, but look
(05:47):
at it from that biggerperspective Because, remember,
it's not always about you, ever.
I mean, let's get away fromthat and look at things from a
bigger picture and how we can beof service to others, to others
, or, you know, let's just seewhere, see where it goes.
I mean exactly, you know youcould have a conversation like I
(06:09):
, like I did last week with withan individual um and it was
great talking to him, but therewas from from the podcast
perspective.
There just wasn't theconnection there, there wasn't.
Michelle (06:20):
Yeah and that's great, that's okay, it is, it really
is.
Yeah, I, I mean it's.
It's interesting, as we'retalking about this and just you
know the power of relationshipsand connections and and
certainly how when we, when webuild on those relationships, it
also builds our own confidence.
Like to have more conversations.
A friend of mine in anetworking group that I was part
(06:42):
of years ago, like when Istarted as a career coach, I was
part of this businessnetworking group and he had this
saying and I repeat it toclients you know, today I'm
going to share it with yourlisteners right now which is,
you know, think about networkingconversations.
And networking conversationsare really like you know, you're
having conversations with thepurpose of, you know, exploring
(07:03):
possibilities and maybe learningabout organizations.
But he said, approach it withthe interaction in mind.
It's all about the interactionand not about the transaction.
So the transaction is I'm justgoing to go and, like Tim, I'm
going to have a conversationwith you.
So you know, I'm just going tohave this conversation with Tim,
I'm going to learn information,it's going to help my job
(07:24):
search, end of story, nothingelse that happens.
That's a transactionalrelationship.
But when you believe in theinteraction, you're going
sharing your progress andcourses that you've taken or
(07:47):
advice that that person gave you.
Let them know what you did withit.
That's all about theinteraction.
The interaction is therelationship and when we
approach these conversationswith the interaction in mind,
they can go to really greatplaces and sometimes be very,
very surprising.
Tim (08:03):
Yeah, and especially when you're dealing with young
professionals, I think, as I'mseeing, I say older, you know, I
think I kind of learned.
I've always known it, but Ikind of learned it when I was
probably about 30.
Michelle (08:19):
Okay, there's a difference between knowing
something and learning something.
Tim (08:23):
right, exactly Because okay yeah, you know, people told you
that.
But when you learn and you seeeither wow, if I had done that
would have gotten a differentresult, or I did that for the
first time and this was theresult that I got.
So there's a difference betweenknowing and learning right.
Michelle (08:39):
Exactly and then practicing Practicing what
you're learning.
Tim (08:43):
And then practicing, practicing what you're learning.
How do we, you know, get this,get that idea embedded in young
professionals' minds so thatthey don't have to go through
some of the things that we'vegone through?
I mean, you've got kids, I'vegot kids.
Yeah, you know, we do the bestwe can, we teach them and we see
them making the same mistakesthat we made, even though we've
(09:04):
told them don't do that or dothis, right, and.
But somebody down the road,next door neighbor, tells them
the exact same thing and it'slike the the the best thing
they've ever heard.
So how can, how can we get, youknow, young professionals to
understand, you know, it's okayto talk to somebody, it's it's
okay be.
Go into a conversation with nogoal, no agenda, see where it
(09:27):
goes, and then go into aconversation with a goal and
agenda and see which one is abetter conversation.
Michelle (09:33):
Yeah, I mean, that's such a great question because
you know to your point, youlearn more about, you know the
power of having theseconversations, like when, you
know, when you were 30.
And you know, I would say thesame for me.
I mean, I didn't start anynetworking activity until I was
about like 34 or 35.
And the only reason was becauseof something that happened that
(09:56):
necessitated it.
I lost my job, I was thrust inthe job market, so I really
needed to explore some, someother alternatives fast.
But this is something that wecan build at a much earlier
stage in life.
And you know, if I think backto you know, things that would
have helped me when I was ayoung professional, young adult,
(10:19):
to be able to step into theseconversations with confidence.
It would have been having somekind of you know framework and
you know to your point.
Maybe you don't know exactlywhere the conversation is going
to go, but I find that and I'mgoing to speak with about my
adult clients now for a second Ifind that people avoid having
(10:41):
conversations because they justdon't know what to do.
They don't think that they'regoing to be good at it.
And they don't't know what todo.
They don't think that they'regoing to be good at it and they
don't really know how to do it,they don't really feel like they
have the skills.
So then they just avoid theconversations completely.
And in the context of lookingfor work, that can be disastrous
, because having theseconversations and building
relationships when you'relooking for work forms, I'm
(11:03):
going to say like upwards of 80%of the amount of time that you
need to invest in finding thatnext job.
So it's more giving people thepermission to be able to reach
out, but with, you know, with aframework.
So when I'm talking about that,it's not even necessarily
establishing what the outcome isgoing to be, but it's thinking
(11:27):
about putting the other personfirst.
And so if you're a person thatnaturally is curious, you know
likes to ask questions ofyourself or of other people,
that's going to be a skill thatyou can contribute to these
conversations earlier in life.
So I would, you know, I'd sayto all of your listeners before
(11:50):
you have a conversation withsomeone and this is even just
you know you could be talkingabout, you know, like with a
friend, or maybe you have like anew neighbor or somebody at
school that you're meeting forthe first time ask questions of
the other person, and so I findit can be really helpful and
less daunting to be in theconversation when you've thought
about the kind of questionsthat you would want to ask.
(12:12):
So, for example, let's sayyou're going to a group event
and you know you're not reallysure, like you know, who you're
going to meet or where theconversation is going to go.
Think about those questions youcan ask, like you know.
So you know.
So why are you here?
Like what attracted you here?
And like, well, what are youhoping to get out of today?
And how did you get here?
(12:32):
You know, and you know, askingquestions about the other person
, you're going to learn thingsabout them and it's a great way
to keep the conversation going.
And then you see where theconversation goes.
You know one thing leads toanother.
Think about bringing thosequestions to the conversation.
You're going to learn about theother person.
You're going to learn, you know, something new that might help
(12:54):
you with your own careeraspirations, and then it becomes
a really useful conversation tohave.
But having that framework andthe preparation beforehand
really builds the confidence.
Tim (13:06):
It really does.
And I'm so glad you said that,because I'm somebody that harps
on preparation and research andpreparation and research and
pretty much everything that wedo, or everything that I do or
talk about.
You know, think about it fromthe perspective of if you're
going to go into, let's just usethat example as a networking
event and you don't have anyidea of who's going to be there.
(13:28):
Like you know most most I meannetworking events take on all
different kinds of shapes andsizes and and that sort of thing
.
Michelle (13:36):
But if you're going to your industry networking event.
Tim (13:38):
Okay, who do you think is going to be there?
If you're going to, you know atown, you know a business
networking event you know who'smembers of the chamber?
Michelle (13:49):
Yeah, exactly.
Tim (13:49):
Think about those types of things and approach from there,
because if you walk in cold andyou're not comfortable talking
to people, that's again.
You get right back into this.
Okay, I'm here, I don't knowwho's here, I don't like talking
to people, I don't know whereto start.
Okay, you're going to standthere for five minutes, you may
go over, get a couple of bitesof cheese and a drink, and then
(14:09):
you're out of here and you'vejust you've just lost an
opportunity.
Michelle (14:14):
Oh yeah, many opportunities probably.
Tim (14:18):
And so that's, that's, that's part of it.
And and obviously, uh, I'msomebody who has a lot of
questions and and I, you know, II don't take myself very
seriously and I tell you know,my clients, I'm okay with being
the stupidest person in the room.
I really am, because if I don'tunderstand something or if I
(14:38):
want to know something, I'm notgoing to just wither, I'm going
to ask, ask a question or, youknow, try and get the
information or what have you,because I'm probably not the
number one, I'm probably not theonly one that has that question
.
Michelle (14:52):
Yes, exactly, and you know it's interesting, like you
know, as we're talking about,you know ask, asking questions.
I mean, you know, yeah, ofcourse we can learn so much, but
you know it's it's.
You know it's just continuingthat conversation, like like I
find like I don't know if you'veever gone to an event, tim,
where you know you walk in theroom and somebody like like
(15:13):
almost thrust their businesscard in your face, starts
talking about hey, like this isabout me, this is what I can do
for you and it's all about me,me, me.
So you know, when you're at anevent especially, I would invite
your listeners like turn itaround.
Actually it's not about you.
(15:34):
So maybe your backstory is youwant to learn about a particular
sector, or you want to learnabout a particular career path,
or you want to learn you knowabout.
You know, like how somebody wasable to enter a particular job.
Make it all about the otherperson and less about you.
Know about you know, like howsomebody was able to enter a
particular job.
Make it all about the otherperson and less about you.
And so you know what can makepeople you know comfortable and
can really build that confidenceis, think about being at an
(15:56):
event, like just having aconversation in day to day life.
And the thing is, you know, alot of my clients will say but
Michelle, like I don't know howto do this, I've never had the
network.
And the thing is, you know, alot of my clients will say but
Michelle, like I don't know howto do this, I've never had the
network.
And I said, okay, let's framethis in a different way.
I said do you haveconversations?
And they say well, yes, I saidhave you ever had a conversation
(16:18):
with somebody that you did notknow at the time that you met
them?
And and they said, well, yeah,actually that happens all the
time.
Like you know, there's you knowsomebody new like sitting
beside me in class, or you knowlike there's a new neighbor, and
I say hi, and we start to havea conversation and I say so,
you're already doing it, youknow, and that's something that
(16:39):
can really, you know, helpindividuals speak with
confidence, because when youreframe something big like
networking, it seems really, youknow, daunting, because the
word tends to create a lot ofanxiety for people a lot of fear
.
But when you reframe it to say,networking is really just about
(17:00):
having conversations.
It's about doing researchthrough conversation, because
you do want to learn about theother person, about their
organization, about you knowwhat their path is, but you
already have conversations everysingle day.
This is something that wealready have a skill on.
So I find when we, when wereframe something that seems
really big and really like we'refearful of it into something
(17:24):
that's more familiar to us, itjust gives that way in to allow
people to have theseconversations.
And you know and I'm going tobe honest here, tim so you know,
you said you learned this skillat 30.
I said I learned this at age 34.
I made a ton of mistakes when Istarted, you know, just
(17:45):
reaching out and havingconversations.
It was clunky, it was awkward.
I really don't think I knewwhat I was doing, you know.
But I was trying my very best.
But the thing is, the more Idid it, first of all I was
learning, I was adjusting myapproach, I was bringing new
questions.
I was, you know, I was justlike in the conversation in a
(18:07):
different way, but it wasbuilding my confidence too,
because the more you know, youknow as well like.
the more you do something, themore comfortable you're going to
feel with it, and having thesekind of conversations and
building relationships fallsexactly in that category.
Tim (18:22):
Exactly, and the better you're going to get.
You know, again, fulldisclosure.
Going to a networking event forme is like, yeah, I mean it's
it's.
I hate doing it, I don't wantto do it, it's, you know, for
any number of reasons, I mean,I'm, I'm, naturally I'm an
introvert intro, but if we again, if we reframe it and look at
(18:44):
it from a different perspectiveand understand there are certain
things that we have to get overand do and look at it like you
said, you know, make it aboutother people.
I'm not going to say that itmakes it easy, but it makes it
easier and a little bit morecomfortable for you.
And again, doing it, you haveto do it, you can't talk about
(19:08):
it, you have to actually go outand do it and then do it again,
and then do it again, and that'show you build the confidence.
Michelle (19:16):
It totally does.
You know, you highlightedsomething there, Tim, which I
think is really important.
You know, like, the differencebetween thinking about it you
know, like doing the research,you know, like who's going to be
at this event, who am I goingto be talking to?
Like doing your preparationbeforehand with your questions,
all of that is really important.
But if you don't do anythingabout it, then you know, then
(19:39):
nothing builds.
And you know, the one thingthat I've come to learn about
the power of having theseconversations, that I've come to
learn about the power of havingthese conversations, the power
of building relationships, is,you know, it works because
people love to talk aboutthemselves.
We just need to ask.
And so that's where you know.
Back to what we were talkingabout earlier, like make it
(20:01):
about the interaction, not thetransaction.
Like ask about the other person, come with your questions,
really be curious and want tolearn about them.
Well, people are generallyhappy to share.
And what I find too, because Iget asked this question, like
what if I go with all myquestions and I never get a
chance to talk about myself?
And that's where the reframingcan help as well.
(20:23):
I said so.
Let's say you're talking toyour friend and you say to your
friend oh, tell me what you didthis weekend, tell me how you
dealt with all of the snow thatcame.
You know what challenges didyou experience?
Like you're going to ask yourfriend all kinds of interesting
questions.
Well, at some point in theconversation your friend is
going to say you know what?
(20:43):
I've been talking a lot aboutmyself here, like, so tell me
about you.
Like, what did?
you do this weekend?
How did you deal with the snow?
And?
And so that's the other part ofthe preparation is you will
want to have prepared like somekind of way to talk about
yourself when the conversationcomes back.
The difference here is thatyou're not leading with talking
(21:04):
about yourself.
You're leading with finding outabout the other person first.
Tim (21:08):
Yeah, and again, that's so important.
But even if you don't get achance to talk about yourself,
that's okay.
Michelle (21:15):
Yeah, that is okay, exactly.
Tim (21:17):
Because now you've learned about these other people and
then you can still reach out andyou can say you know, steve, it
was great meeting you the othernight at the networking event
I'm not sure if you have time.
Maybe we could grab lunchsometime next week.
I'd like to talk to you aboutyou know what you do, or you
(21:40):
know this business or some ofthe things I'm doing that maybe
we could work together.
Whatever, it is Right, but justbecause you don't have time to
talk about yourself in thatmoment, that's okay.
Yeah, and you have to becomfortable enough in your own
skin which leads to a different,different point that that
that's okay.
Michelle (21:56):
Yeah, yeah, I find, like at events, like events can
be very fast paced so we caneasily forget you know
information that maybe welearned about someone before
moving on to the nextconversation.
And, tim, I think your strategyis such an important one
because it's you know, it's notjust about meeting people and
(22:17):
having the conversation.
The follow-up is reallyimportant.
So when you reach out and youthank that person, like just for
their time, for meeting withthem and asking for more of a
conversation, that's where youcan really deepen the
relationship.
Like at events, if you get twoor three minutes with somebody,
that's kind of long in a lot ofcases because you know you'll,
(22:40):
you know things.
Things tend to move veryquickly.
So it's really important to justtake a pause, like after you've
met someone, like get theirbusiness card.
I find a really nice littletrick is if somebody does have a
card I know not everybody hascards these days but if somebody
has a business card, flip itover on the back like jot a few
little notes about what youlearned about that person, just
(23:02):
to kind of lock it in.
Or take out your phone andcreate a little notes file where
you've got you know the peoplethat you're meeting a bit of
information about them.
That way it will just make iteasier for you to reach out and
and you can pick up and showthem that you were really paying
attention, like somebody that Iknew from a long time ago that
(23:23):
did this so well and you'regoing to be surprised, tim, it
was my dentist.
So my dentist and you know,think of your dentist.
You see your dentist.
Like what?
like twice a year and I'mconvinced what my dentist did
after I left is based on all ofthe different things that we
were talking about.
Which is harder?
You know, you've got apparatusin your mouth or cleaning, but
(23:46):
you're still havingconversations.
I'm convinced that she went, youknow, into her office and she
made a few notes about me andwhat I was sharing, because when
I went and saw her months laterit was like no time at a lab.
She had asked me questions thatfollowed up on what it was that
I shared before.
She was really skilled atbuilding relationships and she
(24:07):
was not.
She was not looking for work,there was no like she didn't
really have to do that really atthe end of the day and she sees
like hundreds of patients overthe course of a year.
But because she took that time,it just signaled to me that she
values the relationship, thatshe pays attention, and so you
know for all of the listeners,you know when you are talking to
(24:29):
people, like, pay attention tothose those little details about
people's lives, about whatthey're interested in, about
what's happening with them, andand do integrate it into future
conversations.
It just shows that you'resomebody who really likes to
build relationships and that'san excellent, excellent quality
to have.
That will serve you in yourcareer very well, but it will
(24:50):
serve you in life as well.
Tim (24:52):
Yeah, being known as a connector is a good thing.
Michelle (24:57):
It truly is, and it's not easy, you know.
I think some people just have anatural tendency to do that
Like, oh, like you should talkto this person, like you would
have a lot in common.
But you know, I think it's askill that any of us can do.
And it's really about beingpresent, paying attention to
what's happening in the momentand getting curious.
(25:19):
No-transcript If I wasn'tsomebody that valued
relationships or even thoughtabout that, I wouldn't have even
made that suggestion.
So it's just about payingattention to the cues, like
(25:41):
what's happening around us, andI find we do this in our
day-to-day life.
Maybe we're not aware of it,but it's something that we do.
Like, for example, maybe myneighbor is talking about I
don't know, like wanting torepaint the inside of their
house, and I say like and I'llsay, oh, you know I use this,
you know this company and theywere awesome.
(26:01):
Like, maybe you want to reachout to them Like that would be a
connection that I've made forthat other person.
I'm not like thinking every dayabout doing these kinds of
things, but in the moment thoseopportunities present themselves
.
So it's capturing thoseopportunities and using them to
enrich somebody else's life andand people will remember that.
Tim (26:21):
Exactly, they do.
They do so.
So you, you've had two, twomajor um career shifts.
Yes, what was that like?
What did you learn?
And how are some of thosethings related to, like a young
professional just starting theircareer and looking for work?
Because it's hard, it's hard.
Michelle (26:41):
It's hard, it's like it's a tough job market.
It's you know, looking for workrequires a lot of work and you
know a number of people andyoung professionals included,
because I have worked with someclients who are like just at a
university, who are looking toestablish their careers and not
really sure, like, whatdirection to go in, and the
(27:04):
mistake that a lot of peoplemake like even even my adult
clients who are almost close toretirement and they're looking
for a new path it's it's justlooking online like it's it's,
you know, confining the jobsearch to like just searching
online.
And you know, when I wentthrough my two big career
transitions I mean I worked fora large national bank.
(27:27):
I was in financial services for18 years.
Actually, it was the job I hadright out of high school for 18
years.
I was restructured, my positionwas eliminated because of a
merger and I went intonot-for-profit and the same
thing happened seven years afterthat.
Because of funding changes, myposition was eliminated.
And I remember in the beginning, when I first started looking
(27:49):
for work, I did, I just confinedmy search to online, like what
jobs are posted, what jobs areavailable, which is a really
passive approach because, you'rejust kind of waiting for things
to happen and positions to beposted.
But the biggest learning that Ihad that will serve young
professionals really well, willcertainly serve like more
(28:10):
established, like maybemid-career professionals very
well as well is recognizing thatthere are so many opportunities
that will never get posted yesand, in fact, you know, this is
something that was a big shiftsince the days of the pandemic,
which, like now, are like fiveyears ago, where a lot of
(28:32):
organizations are gravitating tofilling positions through their
network.
They're not posting them online,they're using their network and
they're using their employeebase to identify some really
great fits.
So if you're a youngprofessional, like you know
you're, you're just out ofschool, you're establishing your
career, just knowing that notall the positions are online is
(28:54):
a huge learning, which meansthat you need to be building
relationships, you need to bereaching out, and so, you know,
one of the things that I learnedto do was, you know, starting
to reflect on you know, what'simportant to me in the kind of
organizations that I want to bepart of, and then brainstorming
a list of those organizationsthat I would be interested in
(29:15):
just learning more about.
Again, it's about being curious.
They may not necessarily have aposition that's posted, but
actually reaching out to, youknow, individuals in those
companies to ask some questionsand to learn more.
And so the even bigger learningthat if everybody you know
listening today, you knowremembers this, this will be a
(29:37):
big.
Actually, there's two things,two big things that I'm hoping
people will take away.
One is to remember that youknow your network is not just
the people in front of you,meaning the people you're
immediately connected to, likepeople from school, or friends
and family, or neighbors, orpeople at the gym.
Those are people that are inour immediate circle.
(29:58):
What's important to remember asa first step is there's
hundreds of people behind eachperson that we know, which I'm
going to call looking throughthe network and not just at it.
So if you're you know, lookingto, you know, learn about a
particular career path, you know, not just looking at your
(30:18):
friends and family, but askingwho does your friends and family
know that maybe can give you aconversation, becomes really
important.
First of all, it widens yourcircle, but you also get to
build relationships with peoplewho you don't really know.
So that, like that, was thefirst big learning from all of
my transitions.
But the second one this one ishuge is, every time you talk to
(30:43):
somebody whether you're askingthem to look at your resume, or
you're asking them to at yourresume, or you're asking them to
you know help you betterunderstand what other courses
you might need to take in orderto get into a particular career
path or job.
It's the importance of, withevery conversation, ask who else
in that person's circle theywould be comfortable in
(31:04):
connecting you with, and when wedo that, we're naturally going
to get to talk to new people,which means we're naturally
going to find out about otherorganizations, other career
paths.
With every conversation thatcan lead to a brand new
conversation, and the power ofthat is like exponential like
there's no price tag on thatkind of network building.
Tim (31:27):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
And the whole idea of reachingout to people at different
organizations and just having aninformational interview five or
ten minutes, it's so critical.
And one of the issues thatpeople complain to me about is
(31:49):
they'll reach out, they'll emailsomebody and not not hear back.
And I say, well, did you callthem, did you?
Yeah, was your emailprofessionally written?
exactly you know, were youasking something that was
unreasonable?
Did you, did you give them anopportunity to an opportunity to
say no if they don't have thetime?
But I think it's so important.
(32:10):
You know, the follow-up is soimportant.
Michelle (32:13):
It really is Pick up the phone.
Tim (32:15):
I mean I say pick up the phone like it's back in 1990.
We actually had to pick up thephone.
Michelle (32:19):
It still works.
Tim (32:20):
It does, but call somebody you know, dial the number and
actually talk to them, becausethat, to me, is so much more
personal.
You know, a lot of times, youknow, emails come through and
number one if I don'tnecessarily know the person
right off, or if the subjectline isn't something that's
(32:43):
going to hit me right away, Imay not delete it, but I may not
actually read it or answer itExactly.
And then it gets further,further, further further down
the email line.
Michelle (32:53):
Yeah.
Tim (32:54):
It may get lost, but if you pick up the phone and you and
you reach out, I find that youknow most professionals.
If if you come at them with aprofessional ask in a reasonable
way and they've got time foryou, they will help.
Michelle (33:10):
Yeah, for sure you know, and, tim, you've just
highlighted something reallyimportant there, which is you
know the importance of like evenbeing prepared to reach out,
like we were talking earlierabout, like how you can be
prepared for the actualconversation, but it's also
important to be prepared just tosimply reach out to people.
So, whether that's crafting areally professional ask, that is
(33:35):
very clear about you know thepurpose for you reaching out,
because I find, if there's nopurpose in there, people wonder
who is this person?
Why are they reaching out to me?
Why do they want to spend timewith me?
So so be clear about you knowwhat, what you're hoping that
the other person can help with.
But also be prepared, if youare going to be picking up the
phone, like you know, you don'twant to just be winging it and
(33:57):
umming and ahhing through thewhole thing, which is not as
professional.
So so you know, having anapproach that shows that you
know you're valuing thatperson's time as a gift, that it
is a professional reach out,you're going to be making a
really positive impression.
And there's one thing I'd liketo highlight especially for, you
(34:17):
know, for young professionalslistening, you might be thinking
hold on, like how can I justreach out to somebody at a
company like they don't know me,especially if that person is
far more senior than I am?
And if you're a youngprofessional, almost everybody
that you're going to be talkingto to explore you know career
paths or learn aboutorganizations almost everybody's
(34:39):
going to be more senior thanyou because they've had years of
professional experience.
So I will oftentimes hear fromclients and again these are
mid-career professionals whoalso struggle with this they say
, well, how can I reach out tothe CEO or the executive
(34:59):
director or the vice presidentor the regional manager or
anybody in a senior position orthe regional manager or anybody
in a senior position?
And what I hear from my clientsis they say that person is too
busy, like they're busy leadingthe company.
Why would they talk to me?
And and I call that a limitingbelief because it's an
assumption, it's a judgment,like like if we believe that
(35:23):
we'll never reach out tosomebody more senior because in
our head we've alreadydiscounted it, we haven't even
given them a chance.
We already are assuming, oh,they're going to say no because,
like, why would they want tomeet with me?
But here's the reality.
The reality is theseindividuals, even if they have
like a big title beside theirname, they're human first of all
(35:45):
, they're just a person whohappens to lead the company.
They've also had to do a fairamount of networking themselves
to get to that senior role andbecause they're human, they want
to help.
You know, most people really dowant to help and so when we,
when we reframe that, it justgives us a way in, like.
(36:06):
I'll tell you a short littlestory that emphasizes this and
this is something I share withlots of my clients because it's
a true story.
So back in the days, you know,before I got into coaching and I
was looking for work, one of myconnections, a former colleague
of mine, had put me in touchwith somebody who you know was
senior.
This person was leading ourtouch with somebody who you know
(36:26):
was senior.
This person was leading ourcommunity foundation, which you
know gives grants to differentorganizations within the city
and you know, being in Ottawa,canada, there's a number of
not-for-profits here and thisperson referred me on and said
oh, you know what?
You should talk to the chiefmedical officer of health for
the city of Ottawa, becausethere's always things happening
(36:48):
at the city.
Maybe there's an opportunityfor you.
And at the time I actuallydidn't do anything about that
suggestion because in my head Ihad that limiting belief of this
is the chief medical officer ofhealth, who would be
responsible for every singlemajor health crisis that the
city has.
I said, why, like?
(37:08):
To myself.
I said why would he want tomeet with me?
He's way too busy.
So I didn't do anything aboutit for weeks, but I kind of kept
thinking about it, I keptcoming back and eventually I
just said to myself you knowwhat?
I have nothing to lose.
Let's say he turns me down or hedoesn't respond.
I'm no further behind.
I could be very far ahead,though, so I, you know, mustered
(37:29):
up my courage.
I phoned and got his assistant.
His assistant booked me in forsome time the following week.
Well, not only did thisindividual like have time, he
gave me like 30 minutes of histime and we talked about you
know what was going on in thecity.
He asked me a number ofquestions about my experience
and, at the end, talked aboutyou know what was going on in
the city.
He asked me a number ofquestions about my experience
and at the end, he said you knowwhat?
(37:50):
He said nothing's happeningright now in the public health
area, but he said I know, likeyou know he's, he's been around
for a while.
He said I know that thingschange pretty quickly.
So he said send me your resume,I'll give it to human resources
.
You never know what will happen.
Well, tim, two weeks later, Igot a call from our Ottawa
(38:10):
Public Health Human Resourcesand they said you know what,
like, we have a need to havesomebody like plan some medical
conferences that are coming tothe city.
It's a contract opportunity.
Would you like to be considered?
Tim (38:22):
Well, the answer was yes.
Michelle (38:24):
And I interviewed.
I got the job, turned out to bethe best employment experience
I had had, Certainly one of thebest, and I would have never
known about that if I had to getin the way.
Like this, person is human andthey potentially could help you.
Tim (38:51):
When you reach out, when you plan and prepare and you
have a really professional ask,you know chances are that person
will want to help and that thatoffer of health might actually
lead to a job exactly, exactly,and you, that's that's so
important to get and understand,and uh, everything about that
that story is is, I mean youcould pick lesson after lesson
(39:14):
after lesson and uh, at anypoint, if you hadn't done
something, what would havehappened?
Right, yeah?
Michelle (39:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Tim (39:24):
You just never know yeah.
Michelle (39:27):
And here's the thing.
Tim (39:28):
Even if you called and he said no one, that's okay,
Exactly.
Or if you called and he saidyou know what, I really don't
have time, but I know who doeshave some time.
Yeah, so now you've got twodifferent people that you've
interacted with or or more.
So it's you know, just justjust dial a number.
Michelle (39:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know what you, what you
mentioned there kind of fallsinto the category of what's the
worst that can happen.
So I reach out what's the worstthat can happen?
Oh, the person says no, okay.
So you know, is that going toset you back?
No, because you haven't lostanything, but you can gain a lot
.
So you know, I find you know,especially with with having
(40:10):
conversations, there's there's alot of these like the limiting
beliefs and the limiting beliefs.
Nobody's imposing those on us.
We are standing in our own way,and so when we get out of our
own way and we take onapproaches that allow us to
reframe those limiting beliefs,it allows us to move forward.
(40:31):
We can take positive,productive action and maybe that
will build into a relationshipthat is going to pay dividends
for years to come.
You just never know until youtake a chance and you do it.
Tim (40:44):
Exactly.
Is there anything else thataudience should be thinking
about as they go through the jobsearch and networking process?
Michelle (40:51):
You know, I mean, we've talked about so much,
haven't we?
And we've had some like reallykey takeaways.
You know, like if you don't ask, you don't get.
Certainly you know.
The other thing I guess I'llleave everybody with is you know
we did talk about theimportance of preparation, and
you know I like to think aboutengaging in networking activity
(41:12):
as like going on vacation Maybenot as much fun, but the
elements are the same which isyou need to have a destination,
meaning you need to have apurpose.
Like you know, we generallydon't just reach out just for
fun, like usually there's an aim, um, but you definitely need to
have a plan.
Like imagine if you went onvacation and you had no plan.
It would be a disaster.
(41:32):
It's the same with networking.
And so you know I I wanteverybody to know that that you
might be listening to this andyou might be thinking, but,
michelle, you're like you knowhow to do this, like you're a
coach, you help people with thisvery thing, like how to build
networking strategies andapproaches, and feel confident.
Know that when I first startedout with this at the age of 34,
(41:57):
I was not confident it everyconversation I thought that was
a mess.
Like I don't know if that wentwell, like what's going to come
out of it.
I really didn't know what I wasdoing in the beginning and my
confidence built over time fromhaving done it.
So I have seen it with clientsthat are very hesitant to have
(42:17):
conversations one-on-one or inevents with people.
Have conversations one-on-one orin events with people and when
they are ready to take that stepand they start doing it, the
power of it is like, just like.
There's no price tag.
It leads to new connections, itleads to more information, it
leads to jobs.
And so if you're thinking toyourself, well, I can't do this,
(42:39):
I'm not really good at it,maybe you have more of an
introverted communication styleand it's hard to be in
conversations, know thateverybody can do this.
With reflection, withpreparation, with practice, it
can be something that you can do.
(43:00):
Practice it can be somethingthat you can do.
You just need to believe inyourself and know that there's a
framework that can support youand can help to build your
confidence.
So some big lessons coming outof today.
Tim (43:13):
Yeah, and again, 100% correct.
And I would just add one thingI'm 56.
I'll be 57 here soon and Istill don't think I'm good at it
.
Because you know you go in andokay, wow, some of the things
(43:34):
that come out of my mouthsometimes you know they're
insane.
I mean, because that's just whoI am when I'm in the moment and
I'm talking and we're having agood time and we're doing these
different types of things.
But you have to be able to goback and look at it and say,
okay, well, you know, don't saythat again and you grow from it.
(43:54):
And it's okay Because, rememberthis, they're not judging you.
Michelle (44:03):
No, they're not and they're not judging you.
No, they're not and they don'twant you to fail either.
Tim (44:07):
Exactly, so everything's going to be okay.
Michelle (44:09):
Exactly.
Tim (44:13):
But this is a very exciting time for you.
It is your book.
Cultivating Career GrowthNavigating Transitions with a
Purpose was released on February6th.
Tell me about it, because I'vedone a book and I'll never do it
again.
It's a lot of work, isn't it,tim?
I'll never say never, butthere's no plan to ever do it
again.
But it's an exciting timebecause I mean to write a book
(44:38):
where people don't understand.
It's so much time, so mucheffort.
It is, and you know it's aheavy lift.
And then you've got the booktour.
You've got to go on and you'repromoting this and promoting
that and then finally it'sreleased.
And I'm just going to tell yousomething it doesn't stop.
Michelle (44:54):
It doesn't stop.
It's just the beginning, isn'tit?
It is so tell us about the book.
Tim (44:57):
So tell us about the book.
Michelle (44:58):
Sounds great.
Thank you so much for asking.
So my book is really meant togive a framework and a system
for individuals looking toexplore new career paths or find
new work because they've beendisplaced through restructuring
or other means.
Individuals are looking for ajob like whether it's because
(45:22):
they've lost their job suddenlyor whether they just don't feel
the love in their work anymoreand realize that they're meant
for more.
What I find people struggle withthe most is figuring out where
do you look, how do I know whatI'm looking for and you know
what is a plan or a strategythat's going to support me in
finding what it is that I reallyneed.
And so you know my book willtake readers through some
(45:46):
reflection, thinking about whatwork really energizes you, the
kind of companies that youreally enjoy working with, and
those deal breakers or thosenon-negotiables the things that
you have to have in your nextstep.
So it's part reflection, it'spart chapter.
I've got like some reflectionquestions and lines like built
(46:26):
right into the pages where youcan write in your notes, you can
write in your reflections, thethings that are important to you
from that particular chapterthat will help you form your job
search strategy.
So I'm really excited it's, youknow, it's a combination of not
just my framework but clientstories along the way and also
my own experience, because I'vegone through transition.
(46:49):
You know, I remember when I wentthrough my very first
transition, when I lost my jobafter 18 years, I needed support
, I needed a framework and Ineeded a guide to help me with
my next steps.
So I'm hoping my book will bethat.
I'm hoping that my book willsupport individuals and like and
be that guide and share thosestrategies and help people build
(47:11):
out their plan so that they'renot just applying for jobs, you
know, which tends to not be veryeffective, but that you have
like a real purpose to lookingfor work and, and you know,
similar to networking, likelooking for work is like going
on vacation too.
You need to have a target andyou absolutely need to have a
plan.
There's some similarities there.
(47:32):
So so a lot of what we'retalking about today appears in
my book and, yeah, I'm superexcited to see where this leads.
Tim (47:41):
That's so awesome, and where can people buy it?
Michelle (47:44):
So people can buy on Amazon.
If you are an e-book reader andyou have a Kindle, you can get
a Kindle version, the paperbackas well.
You can order on Amazon and youcan also, if you're interested
in just I'm going to say, tryingbefore you buy, you can go to
my website and you can get adownloadable free chapter from
(48:06):
my book so you can get a tastefor what the book is all about
and that will give you a sensefor you know what it is that I'm
talking about and you know,hopefully lead you to buy the
book.
So my website ismschafercoachingca.
There's a tab that is called mybook.
Mschafercoachingca.
There's a tab that is called myBook.
You just click on that.
You can sign up to receive thefree chapter and also stay in
(48:27):
touch with me to hear aboutother offerings that I will be
bringing forward after my bookis out in the world for a little
bit.
Tim (48:34):
That's awesome and I'll put that link in the show notes.
Excellent.
Where else can people find?
Michelle (48:39):
you, so you can find me on LinkedIn If you would like
to follow me or connect with me.
I post on career explorationand job search topics, I would
say at least four times a week,and so you know this topic of
having conversations andbuilding relationships is one
that I'm quite familiar withwriting on, so do look for me on
(49:01):
LinkedIn.
Building relationships is onethat I'm quite familiar with
writing on, so do look for me onLinkedIn.
Do you know?
Go to my website again.
It's mshafercoachingca.
I've got lots of resourcesthere and articles that I've
written that may help you inyour own exploration, and you
can learn more about my myservices as well.
So a number of different placesthat you can find me.
And if you feel motivated afterlistening today and you would
(49:22):
like to reach out and have aconversation with me my email is
michelle at mshafercoachingcayou can book a complimentary 30
minute discovery call with me,especially if you've got some
questions and some challengesand you just need a conversation
partner, feel free to reach outto me directly that way.
Tim (49:40):
A conversation partner feel free to reach out to me
directly that way, michelle,that's awesome.
Thank you so much for sharingthat and I will say make sure
you follow Michelle on LinkedInbecause she does put up really
good and valuable actionableinformation and it's phenomenal,
michelle.
But thank you so much forsharing such valuable
information with the SpeakingWith Confidence community.
(50:01):
I really do appreciate it.
Michelle (50:03):
Thank you so much, Jim , for having me today.
Tim (50:06):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free ebook Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them, andalso register for the Forum for
Public Speaking.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com