April 28, 2025 • 47 mins
Ever feel like your brain is in a constant game of tug-of-war between clarity and your notifications? You’re not alone, and this week’s Speaking with Confidence episode is for you.
I’m joined by Craig Mattson, communication professor and organizational researcher, for a conversation that’s part public speaking class, part digital detox, and all about powerful communication in a tech-heavy world. Together, we dig into how digital overwhelm is hijacking our attention and what we can do to get it back, without swearing off technology completely.
Craig brings storytelling, research, and real conversations with Gen Z and millennial professionals to the table as we explore:
- How to communicate effectively across generations without falling into the “kids these days…” trap
- Why interpersonal skills are harder—but more important—than ever in today’s tech-driven workplace
- The surprising power of analog practices like journaling to anchor your focus and build self-knowledge
- How to set workplace boundaries with confidence and clarity
- What it means to shift from being a spectator to a performer in our digital lives—and why it matters for personal and professional development
This isn’t just about public speaking, it’s about becoming a powerful communicator who knows how to show up, stay present, and build real relationships… even in a world of pings, posts, and pressure.
Whether you're a team leader, educator, or just trying to survive your inbox, this episode will help you reclaim your attention and communicate with purpose.
Tune in now and let’s get confident, one conversation at a time.
Links & Resources:
https://themodeswitch.substack.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-mattson-bb861445
Visit TimNewmanSpeaks.com to grab your free resource, The Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them, and start building the confidence you deserve.
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
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Episode Transcript
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Tim (00:08):
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast
dedicated to helping you unlockthe power of effective public
speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
(00:30):
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is Craig Mattson.
Craig is an organizationalresearcher who serves as a
professor of communication atCalvin University.
He's written several books andnumerous essays, often exploring
communicational complexities oforganizational life, but when
he's not writing and reading andpodcasting, he's enjoying the
(00:53):
natural world hiking, runningand playing driveway pickleball.
Craig lives with his wife Rhodain Grand Rapids, michigan, and
their four adult children live,study and work across the
Midwest.
Greg, welcome to the show.
Craig (01:07):
So grateful to be here, Tim.
So let me ask you a question.
I love the concept of the showand I love talking about talk,
so let's do it.
Tim (01:14):
Well, before we get into that, let me ask you a different
question.
Craig (01:18):
Okay.
Tim (01:20):
How long have you been playing pickleball and are you a
pickleball addict, like a lotof the pickleball people that I
know?
Craig (01:27):
I have been playing for about a year, so I don't know if
I quite have achieved addictstatus.
I finally did go to a realpickleball court a couple of
months ago and I was glad to seethat there were some
transferable skills from mydriveway to the court.
I'm a little scared at how manypeople get injured playing
(01:48):
pickleball, so there are a lotof intense people.
Tim (01:51):
Yes, so I had my knee replaced.
It's been a little over twoyears ago and when I was doing
my rehab in the rehab center,almost every person in there was
there for rehabbing apickleball injury, and so for me
(02:12):
, that that's enough for me toI'm not, I'm just not going to
do it because I'm, I'm at, I'mat the point where, where, where
my body is starting to breakdown based on, you know, the
things I've done, you know myprevious life, and so no, I
don't go skiing, I'm not playingpickleball or tennis.
So I'm the golf addict, I'mthat guy.
(02:35):
But you know, pickleball issomething that has taken off
over the last five to ten years,and it's great over the last
five to 10 years and it's great,you know, here in Hilton Head,
obviously it's a resort town andthis time of year we have the
locals and it's a little bit ofan older population and it's
(02:59):
really just taken over, I meancourts are all over the place.
Craig (03:02):
Yeah, I mean I've enjoyed it as like a way to connect
with my kids.
I've enjoyed it as a way toconnect with neighbors.
But yeah, I haven't becomereally, really skilled at it and
I also haven't become obsessiveabout it yet.
So I don't know if I'm just,like you know, sort of
(03:24):
emotionally compensating there,like I'm not good at it.
So I tell people I'm not anaddict, but I do.
I do enjoy it.
It's a lot of fun.
Tim (03:32):
Well, it is.
I mean, it is a way to get outand exercise and you know if, as
long as you don't get hurtthat's right, that's that's,
that's the key.
And, um, you know it's a lot ofquick.
You know, you know quick moving, stop and go, and you know, at
at least for me in my stage,that that's a recipe for torn
(03:53):
Achilles tendons.
Uh, you know ACL injuries.
Well, and ACL injury, I've onlygot one, one left, but you know
it is what it is.
One left, but you know it iswhat it is.
Well, let's go ahead and getinto the real topics of the day.
(04:13):
Let's talk about your book herefor a second.
You know, how did you developthe idea for the book Digital
Overwhelm?
And because I think it's afascinating topic and I love the
way you laid it out with theexamples, especially the forward
, how you talk about this, it'snot this, it's not this, it's
not this and this is so.
(04:33):
So how do you develop thattopic?
Craig (04:50):
really overwhelmed, I think.
Um, in 2022, I interviewed someuh 47, gen Z and millennial
professionals and I asked them akind of open-ended question how
are you coping with theintensities of life and work in
the early 2020s?
And you remember that time.
We're kind of still in thattime and still're sure yeah
still in it.
Um, but yeah, as I listened totheir stories and they had some
jaw-dropping stories about whatit's like to be at work today um
(05:14):
, yeah, I, I kind of summed itup as digital overwhelm and then
that was just like a catchyphrase and I found that a lot of
people, as soon as I used thatphrase, would say, oh yeah, I'm
totally in that, but then I hadto do the work of defining it
and that took a little bit morecareful scholarship and
reflection.
Tim (05:37):
Yeah, I mean I look around at just the people that I know.
I mean I look around at justthe people that I know.
I think I don't know thatthere's anybody that's not in
digital overwhelm unless you're,unless you're a kid Right and
your and your and your parentshave have, really kind of you
know, said we're setting limitson screen time and screen time
(05:59):
could be computer TV.
What have you?
Craig (06:03):
I mean if you're.
Tim (06:04):
I don't know anybody that.
That's that.
Craig (06:06):
That's not in digital yeah, I've met one person, one
guy.
I had a student in a class andhe told me I don't think I'm
digitally overwhelmed, so godbless him.
God bless him.
I mean, yeah, he's a fortunatesoul.
But most people I've talked tohave have said exactly they have
that sort of aha factor like,yes, that totally names where I
(06:26):
live.
Tim (06:27):
Yeah, and I don't know if you know this, we have a couple
of things in common that I'm notsure you know about.
You know, I left my firstacademic position after 16 years
for a number of reasons, kindof along the lines of what, from
what I understand you, youweren't really interested in
(06:48):
leaving your first position.
That's right, right.
I, I was at a point where I Ifelt that I had accomplished
everything I wanted toaccomplish and I didn't want to
move forward at that institution, and so I.
(07:09):
So I was.
I was looking and I went toGeorgia state university, which
was a very different institutionthan where I came from.
I came from a small, private,4,500 student, not very diverse
to you know, a division to an R1.
Craig (07:29):
So yeah, Georgia State would be a very different sort
of institution.
Tim (07:33):
Yeah, urban, and it reinvigorated me for a time
until until COVID hit.
And that's that's when Irealized for you know me that
digital overwhelm had reallykind of I wouldn't say sucked
the life out of me, but hit mepretty hard.
Craig (07:55):
Yeah, I closely identify with that to define digital
overwhelm as the intersection oftech development, rapid tech
development, and just emotionalupwelling in yourself.
And when those two things, youknow, meet, the emotional
(08:17):
upwelling, all the feelings, andthen just like the constant
riptide of technologicaldevelopment, like the constant
uh riptide of technologicaldevelopment.
For us in covid it, you know,was trying to get used to the
zoom room, um, and, you know,accustom ourselves to digital
spaces, but also the smartphone,um and its many capacities, the
(08:37):
, the, the joy of reels oninstagram and tiktok, but also
the addiction and thecompulsiveness and sometimes the
political ugliness of that.
Tim (08:48):
So it's just a lot, it's just a lot, so how did you deal
with it?
Craig (08:56):
I was.
Honestly I can't say that Ihave like figured out a way to
master this.
I wouldn't like hold myself upas like a moral exemplar here,
but I, I mean, I have found somepractices that I use to try to
keep myself.
Coming back to my center, Istart the day, you know, and in
(09:18):
a pretty boring quiet way.
You know.
I write in my journal about whathappened the day before um, and
that I often find just the workof handwriting um is a very
sort of centering thing.
I also try to read, uh, everyday, apart from a screen.
(09:38):
So, um, I, you know, look atbooks, that old technology, and
then I think you know thegoodness, like you've been
mentioning, of just beingoutside and being in the natural
world.
All those have been sort ofcentering practices.
But I have to say that, againand again, dealing with digital
(09:59):
overwhelm is not a one-timeconversion experience.
I mean, you keep returning tothe work.
Some of the wealthiest peoplein the world, some of the most
powerful technologies in theworld, are really trying to
harvest our attention andmonetize it, and so we, you know
, the resistance to that is justan every single day thing.
Tim (10:24):
It's funny and I'm not using the term funny, ha-ha, but
it's funny how the whole ideaof addiction right.
When we talk about addiction tothings like we would normally
think of alcohol, drugs,gambling, food.
I would say that the digitalworld is also an addiction, but
(10:54):
we never truly really talk aboutit or address it on a bigger,
wider scale at home or in a teamat work, but it's not really
talked about on the macro levelpublicly.
Yeah.
Craig (11:13):
Yeah, I think it's baffling to people on the macro
level what to do about it.
You know, you do see someprominent figures trying to
address it the Surgeon Generaltrying to address the problems
of kids' use of smartphones.
Jonathan Haidt, a moralfoundations psychologist, he's
(11:36):
thought a lot about this andhe's gained some prominence
advising schools and parents topull away from their kids' use
of smartphones.
And then you know the TikTokconversation in Congress and in
the White House.
(11:56):
That just sort of exhibits theconfusion that we feel about
this and the difficulty of doinganything.
On a sort of macro level.
My book really looks at whatyou might call like a mezzo
level, like a middle level Right, how, how, you know, not just
yourself, but in the sort ofcircle of choice that you and
(12:19):
your co-workers have, what canyou do?
What can you do?
What can you share?
Um, how can we keep human there?
Tim (12:27):
yeah, and I, I, I like the conversation that you had with
um I think it was, uh, andreamonday, uh, on on one of your
episodes and I, I, I reallyrelated to some of the things
that she was saying, because inmy world I get some of those
(12:48):
things with the familyemergencies and the family
tragedies and you know to be inthose positions and then have to
go to you know, for me it wasdepartment chair and dean have
to go to you know, for me it wasdepartment chair and Dean.
You know, for other people it's, you know, supervisor, boss,
whatever coworkers, whatever itis and say you know I've got to
(13:13):
go, I've got, I have to dealwith with these things and being
okay with that.
Craig (13:24):
And so I really related to yeah to those stories.
Yeah, me too.
I andrea's stories were some ofthe most important for me in
the book too.
Tim (13:27):
Digital overwhelm yes, I think in some ways she was a
real wake-up call to me you know, and I've said this on on
podcast before, when I get abook, I don't start at chapter
one.
That's, I'm not.
I'm, that's I opened, I openedthe table of contents and I say,
wow, that's interesting.
(13:47):
Now I'm going to start here.
So, unless, so, unless somebodytells me to, you have to start
chapter one and read all the waythrough, I, I don't.
I don't do that.
Um, good for you, because Iwill eventually read up, read
all of them.
And the chapter that had that,that, when I opened it up, was
the chapter on meaning, and thatjust also happened to be the
(14:09):
chapter that andrea was in thatand that was that was that was
not kind of planned as I wasgoing through this at all um
yeah, I think his name was devonum, I mean his, I mean really,
really powerful stories that arerelatable.
And you know you talk aboutintergenerational communication.
(14:31):
Why are we as because I put theblame on us as the elders, the
older generation why aren't wedoing more to have those
conversations and to understandthe communication differences
(14:53):
better?
Craig (14:56):
I don't have a great answer to that.
I think intergenerationalcommunication is sort of
kindergarten stuff, like it'sbasic respect, care, empathy,
curiosity.
This is stuff we know how to dowhen we're five years old but
for some reason it just keepsrecurring as a problem in the
American workplace.
(15:17):
I do think some of it comesdown to technological changes.
You know, the olders among usare like yeah, I don't want to
change things, I like the way wedid it, and the youngers are
all up for the world ofperplexity and chat, gpt and
other.
You know massive renovationsand how we do work today.
(15:41):
So I think that's a factor.
But honestly, it really doescome down to being humble enough
to listen to people who have adifferent experience than you.
I mean, that's pretty basicstuff, it's not fancy.
Tim (15:54):
It's not, and I don't think that and I don't know that it's
changed ever, because I knowwhen I was younger, the boomers
and so forth they didn't startcoming to us and say or talk to
(16:16):
us about how we communicate.
It was you fall in line.
There wasn't any realdiscussion about it.
This is how we're going to dothings and this, this is what
we're going to do.
Um, yeah and uh, yeah, you knowso, but I think we're at we're.
I think we're at a time reallybecause of technology and the
(16:40):
how quickly technology changesand the amount of access that we
have to information, howquickly that changes.
If we don't start to look at howthe younger generations
communicate, we're really goingto be in trouble.
So I don't know how much youknow about some of the lingo,
(17:02):
that like cap and all thoseother things, and I just
sometimes I'll go through andI'll see what things mean and
I'll talk to my 30-year-old kidsand I'll start using those
words and they get upset and Isaid, look, you better start
learning these things becauseyou know you've got kids.
Because you know you've gotkids.
Craig (17:29):
But that's I mean, I do it kind of as a joke, but also
halfway serious too, because youneed to know how to communicate
with them.
Yeah, I do think language is ahuge, huge dimension of this.
I'm so glad you brought it up.
I'm not surprised becauseyou're you're riding a wave and
(18:03):
the wave, the board.
Staying flexible, staying agile, like you're trying to do, like
I think that's, I think that'swisdom, but it's not comfortable
.
And the reason that the boomerstold us Xers, you know, fall in
line is like there's there'sit's hard to run a company, it's
hard to run an organization,there's, there's it's hard to
(18:24):
run a company, it's hard to runan organization.
And when you've got a bunch of,you know, young kids in there,
we're going to destabilizethings.
It probably makes a certainsense to tell them to shut up
and get in line.
But honestly, in the long run,it's not wisdom, right, Like, in
the long run, it's better tosay, yeah, I think this is the
way we should do things.
(18:45):
But how are you seeing it fromyour angle?
And even if, at the end of theday, you do things the way you
know, you think they need to bedone because you're running the
company or the team.
Just the fact that you'reopening up your framework and
you're allowing other voices inlike you're going to be better
in the situation and the team'sgoing to be better.
Tim (19:05):
So yeah, yeah, and they're going to feel like they have
ownership too and be moreinvested into whatever it is,
whatever it is.
Craig (19:13):
Yeah, that's wisdom, yep.
Tim (19:15):
Yep, but it is hard.
I think you know we talked abit about offline when I
realized that I was old and andthat I better start doing things
a bit different.
But where do you come down onthe whole idea of technology in
the classroom Phones, computers,ipads Because that's a that's a
tough and sticky one too.
Craig (19:35):
It sure is.
There is no easy answer on that.
I have colleagues who like havepretty strict rules, like have
pretty strict rules.
I have a friend, a millennialfriend, who is a professor, and
she puts up one of those.
I don't know if you've everseen these like back of the door
shoe holders.
You kind of put your shoes inthem.
Well, she has one for phones,so everybody's got a pocket that
(19:57):
when they come in the room theyslide their phone in.
I don't do that.
I do tend to be a little bitlax, and what I do is basically
try to cultivate techmindfulness in the room.
So I'll say, look, I have veryfew rules here.
I'm not going to police you,I'm not going to surveil you,
but I would ask you to bemindful.
(20:17):
What are you doing and why areyou doing that right now, and
what does it have to do withwhat the rest of us are doing?
And so I periodically just havethese little meditations where
I say, yeah, like it's halfwaythrough the semester, so let's
kind of return to this, thisdigital fact of our lives, that
(20:39):
we just have all thesealgorithms and notifications
that are really trying tomonetize our eyeballs.
And do you want that, is thatwhat you want for your life and
what are our goals here?
So I kind of try to talk peoplethrough it rather than
legislating through itno-transcript numbers.
Tim (21:32):
So they gave me their phone number.
So I would sit back and I wouldwatch.
And if they started, if theircomputer was open and they were
doing something else, I'd textthem put it away.
And they were doing somethingelse, I'd text them put it away.
Put it away, put it away, youknow because if you want to do
that with I, don't care from theperspective.
If you want to do that with me,that's fine.
We'll have a differentconversation.
(21:53):
But there's when, when we haveguests, guests in, we need to
act professional and show, show,show respect in those types of
things.
But I was also really lax, likeyou.
Um, it's, you know, we all haveto make decisions yeah, that's
right.
Craig (22:10):
We all got to make choices and you know it's I.
Tim (22:14):
I hope that you're gonna make good choices and I'll help
you make good choices.
I'll put you in positions tomake good choices, but
ultimately it's up to you yeahand so it's in positions to make
good choices, but ultimatelyit's up to you.
Yeah, and so it's it's.
It's hard, though, when youknow you you're, you're going
(22:35):
through and you, you knowthey're not paying attention.
That's actually a good thing.
Craig (22:38):
That goes off, just so you know goes off, just so you
know, gotta fix this.
So, but uh well, I mean, I wasthinking that that part of the
reason I'm lax is that it's notall up to us.
Like it really frustrates methat these, um, very large
corporations are so powerful.
(22:59):
Um, I I don't know that I canactually be angry with my
students or with my coworkers orthe people around me if they
get distracted.
Oh my gosh, like who do I thinkthey are?
They're not, you know, a saintfrom the second century.
They're they.
They are just ordinary peoplelike me, and I'm as distractible
(23:21):
as the rest.
Like me and I'm as distractibleas the rest.
So I think we have to givegrace to each other, even as we
try to help each other, keep ourbalance and try to find some
digital health.
Tim (23:30):
Yeah, and you know the whole idea of you know, and my
wife and I have thisconversation on a regular basis.
I'm I wouldn't say that I'mgreat, but I'm fairly good if,
if I'm having a conversationwith somebody where I'm involved
in something and the phonevibrates, I'm I'm pretty good
with not looking at it.
Craig (23:53):
the only time I do.
Tim (23:55):
The only time I do is if, if, like my, my, because my kids
have a different vibration andtone, my wife has a different
vibration and tone, my wife hasa different vibration and tone.
So when they go off, sure,those, those I stop.
You know, almost all the time,and I'm not again I'm not saying
that I'm perfect with this, butyou know I, I think if, if we
(24:17):
can, um, if we can just justpractice, at times it's okay
that you know whatever's comingthrough on Tik TOK or whatever's
coming through in that textmessage, as long as nobody's
head's falling off, you don'thave to necessarily deal with
that, whatever, it is right that.
Second, you know my wife's inreal estate and we were having a
(24:38):
serious conversation the otherday and one of her clients
texted and she stopped rightmid-sentence and I said well,
what are you doing?
She said I'm gonna lose a sale.
You're you know what.
You're not gonna lose a sale ifyou don't respond in 10 seconds
.
That's not, that's not how itworks, you know.
So that's, we've just beenconditioned.
(24:59):
The phone bings it.
It's like Pavlov's dog, youknow, that's.
That's kind of how I look at it.
We got, we got.
We got to look at it, we got tolook at it, yeah.
Craig (25:09):
Yeah, we get a little dopamine hit and it's hard to
resist.
It's hard to resist.
Tim (25:14):
Yeah, so what can we do with with young professionals in
terms of building, you know,meaningful connections in tech,
heavy environments?
You know, the way I look at itis, I don't care how much
technology it is, how much AI,how much of all these other
technological things that aregoing on.
To me, everything is aboutpersonal relationships and we
(25:36):
have to we have to not onlybuild but cultivate those
personal relationships.
So how can we do that with ouryoung professionals and our kids
to, to get them to understandthat and get to that point?
Craig (25:52):
Well, I think what I learned in my research is that,
yeah, I mean, a lot of youngprofessionals are figuring this
out.
They're, they're grokking it,to use you know a slang term
they're, they're.
They're grokking it, to use youknow a slang term they're,
they're.
They're doing the work tofigure out how to be human in
these digital spaces.
So it's not always a matter ofhow do we coach them.
(26:14):
It's sometimes a matter of whathave they figured out about
something that you know we mightfeel a little confused about
ourselves, but I think there aretimes when, as a manager, for
instance, if you're a millennialmanager and you've got Gen Z
team members where you mighthave to, you know you might have
to have that conversation whereyou're like what kind of person
(26:37):
do you want to be on this team?
What's the kind of human thatyou're really wanting to be, and
how can we move towards that?
I think the sort of practicalpoint that I have learned about
keeping human in digital spacesis it takes a lot of energy more
(26:58):
energy than you'd think itwould and just like a simple, a
simple fact, when you are in adigital meeting, you just have
there's such a small portalthrough which you have to pour
your whole personality, yourwhole soul and so that that just
takes a lot of energy.
(27:18):
You really do have to lean intothat.
You really do.
You know you have to speak upand I think that is just a sort
of practical reality of digitalcommunication.
Your limits If you can avoidscheduling a ceaseless round of
(27:49):
these kind of digitalperformances that you're doing
with your team, I think thatwill help you to stay sane.
So I think sometimes saying noto a meeting or requesting a
reschedule can be a good way torespond to the digital demands
of the time.
Tim (28:05):
Yeah, that's hard too.
I mean that is yeah, I justthink about it from you know,
from my perspective, and what Isee you know some of the other
people I'm dealing with goingthrough, it's constant and it's
nonstop.
Craig (28:26):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's hard to say no, uh, especially
if you're a younger professional.
You you may wonder, like can Isay no in this situation?
Um, but I mean, at the sametime, like the Gen Z folks are
showing themselves quiteproficient at you know, saying
here are my boundaries, here'swhat I got to deal with.
(28:48):
So I don't know if that's theword that Gen Zs need to hear.
That might be more the wordthat Gen Xers like you and me
need to hear it is.
Tim (28:55):
I definitely agree with that.
Yeah, but that's again for me.
For me it's, it's incrediblydifficult because my personality
is, you know, the whole thingis is I may not be the smartest
person, but I'm, I'm going to,I'm going to make sure that I
(29:17):
outwork you or out, I'll thankyou, or you know, whatever it is
to to to get done.
But when you look at it, Iwould say even millennials have
a much better handle on sayingno.
You know, my youngest daughterGod bless her, I love her to
(29:41):
death.
She really opened my eyes to it, like right before COVID hit.
She was working in a situationshe wasn't happy in.
We talked about it, so you keepdoing your job search.
And she did something thatinfuriated me.
She quit her job by email whileon vacation.
(30:05):
Huh, Wow.
That's gutsy, and I was furious.
I said I mean, you're killingyour personal brand, you're
killing your reputation, you'redoing this, you're doing that.
All the things that we'vealways been told for our
(30:29):
generation.
Right, right, right.
You don't quit your job unlessyou have another job.
You, if you're gonna quit, youdo it in person.
You, you all those things.
And she said dad, I'll be okay,this is how we do it now.
I said no, this isn't how we doit now, but.
But but where she was right wasshe was in a position where, in
(30:55):
her mind, it was untenable andwhere I would have stuck it out
until something else came along.
She said enough was enough, andthat's that's where, where we
have to um, maybe, maybe there'sa better way to to quit and do
those things, but but being ableto make that decision that she
(31:16):
was in a place where she didn'treally wasn't healthy for her
that, I think is is a verypositive thing and needs to be,
I would necessarily say,celebrated, but acknowledged and
and and move forward from thereyeah, tim, I think one of the
things I've been thinking aboutlately is just our attitudes
(31:36):
towards work itself.
Craig (31:39):
And there's your attitude towards your job, which might
be sucky, it might be amazing.
There's your attitude towardsthe tasks you have to do today.
That's another thing, butthere's an underlying,
underlying, often untalked aboutPosture towards work, towards
(32:00):
toil, and it's such a hugereality in human life.
It's not just when we're on thejob, it's in all places of our
lives.
We're working in the yard, inthe house, with our friends, at
church, at school, whateverwe're doing toil all the time.
And so I think one of thebenefits of intergenerational
conversation is that it bringsthat back into our awareness.
We're like oh yeah, I do havean attitude towards work which
(32:21):
comes out when I say things likekids these days don't know how
to work.
That probably needs someinvestigation.
And so in that story with yourdaughter, there's an underlying
attitude towards work that makessense to her and is different
from from your attitude, andprobably both of you can benefit
from that.
(32:41):
There's a kind ofconsiderateness and tact in your
approach to work that yourdaughter probably could learn
from, daughter probably couldlearn from, and then there's a
real strong sense of personalboundaries and limits and
possibilities that you can learnfrom your daughter.
I think that's the beauty ofintergenerational, it's a gift
(33:02):
of intergenerational exchange.
Tim (33:05):
It is, and I think there was some growth on those things,
just like you said, between meand her and how I started to
address things, and that was oneof the pieces that you know
when we talked about when Istarted to realize I was old,
that you know the populationthat I was really working with I
(33:31):
wasn't necessarily relating to,like I thought I was anymore.
Um, from that perspective andand a lot of good, you know, a
lot of good came from that, Ithink, from um, hopefully it
came across.
Hopefully it came across withwith with students and I know it
came across with with mydaughter.
Come back to I put a lot moreonus on us and our generation to
(33:58):
be the ones reaching out tostart these conversations or to
understand how they go aboutdoing things.
Craig (34:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think time is a fundamentally to get a
little philosophical time isjust a weird thing.
It's a little philosophicalTime is just a weird thing.
It's a weird condition and welose track of that.
We just get frustrated by timeor, you know, we get deluded by
how much time we think we have.
(34:28):
But I think hanging out withpeople in different phases of
life can be a really wonderfulway to inhabit time more wisely,
so I love that story from yourdaughter.
Tim (34:41):
I think that's really great .
Yeah, I was.
I was mad, craig, I was mad, Iwas mad.
Oh my God, I was so mad.
And and and again.
You look back on things as, asa parent and I'm sure you do the
same you think why did youreact the way that you reacted?
And I think a lot of times andI'm just speaking for me a lot
of times I react because I can'thelp them at that point.
(35:05):
um, you know, they they putthemselves in a position where,
me being the person that helpspeople I there's nothing I can
do to help you at this stage.
Oh yeah, now you're truly onyour own and I can't fix it.
Craig (35:20):
Uh-huh.
I think that's a really humbleand truthful observation.
I think it comes with parentingadults a lot.
A lot of people feel that, butI think it comes in the
workplace as well.
Um, sometimes, though, justyour presence and your way of
being is itself a kind of help,a kind of resource to other
(35:41):
people.
Sometimes, we think the onlything we have to offer is what
we can say out loud, and maybeit's more of the kind of person
that you manage to be whenyou're near them.
Yeah, and sometimes we just keepthe mouth shut.
It's hard to do, Tim.
Tim (36:01):
It is, it is, it is, it is, it is.
And you talk about theintergenerational communication.
The work that you're doing withyour podcast Mode Switch is
phenomenal and I really amenjoying those conversations
with the different generations.
Me too, me too, I mean justlearning a lot in how they go
(36:27):
about the thought process aswell, the thought process as
well.
Not necessarily, notnecessarily, not always
necessarily what they're saying,but how they go about coming to
the decisions and thoughts thatthey're coming to.
Craig (36:40):
Yes, I I think that's it's a.
It was something I sort ofstumbled into.
I, you know, kind of graduallyfound that, oh my gosh, there
are people of differentgenerations who really want to
talk about what work is like,what it's feeling like today and
I'm thinking about your podcastSpeaking with Confidence, and I
(37:01):
think that a lot of the work ofintergenerational communication
is learning to speak withconfidence from your particular
standpoint.
There's an author named LeslieNewbigin who talks about proper
confidence, and I think there'san appropriate confidence that
we can have when we're in thesekind of complicated and messy
(37:23):
conversations with ourintergenerational teams, um,
where you just say like here'show I'm experiencing the world,
how about you?
And like not avoiding thoseconversations and then also not
like, I don't know, being abully in those conversations.
(37:44):
That's the tricky dance ofspeaking with confidence.
Tim (37:49):
Absolutely, and I think part of that as well is no, no
one knowing who you are, knowinghow you think and how you go
about making decisions and whatyou value.
You know the wholeintrospection and, as we grow,
(38:11):
how that changes.
And I I tell them, tell my, mystudents and clients if you're
still thinking the same way at40 that you did at 20, you're
probably you may be doing itright, but I would suggest that
you're probably, you probablyneed to go back and do some more
introspection.
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know,but but I just, I just know how
(38:36):
the way I go about doing thingsnow is different than the way I
did it 10 years ago.
The way I think about things,you know the way.
Just my core values haven'tchanged, but the way I
communicate them has changed.
The way I come across haschanged, or the way I think
communicate them has changed.
The way I come across haschanged, or the way I think
about them has changed, and Ithink we need to do a better job
(38:57):
.
You know all the way arounddoing that because then again we
get away from the whole idea ofworrying about what other
people think of us and how thataffects what we do and what we
think and what we say and how wego about it.
Going back to TikTok, you knowwe put so much value in what
(39:21):
somebody who we don't knowthinks is important, what value
we put on the clothes that wewear, what value we put on how
we look.
You know, whatever it is that,to me, has to, we really have to
get away from that and startworrying about yourself and
(39:44):
thinking about who you are as anindividual and not worrying
about some of these other things.
Craig (39:49):
I do think self-knowledge is a real source of strength
and wisdom.
It's not easy.
Today, I think there are a pairof sociologists that I read
when I was in grad school andone of their insights has just
stayed with me over all my yearsof teaching Abercrombie and and
(40:10):
um Longhurst and and they wrotethis book about audiences.
And they said today we all feellike and they were writing,
writing this in like 1999.
So it was a long time ago.
But, um, they said, today weall feel like we are spectators
and performers at the same time.
And so you know that's a hardrole to carry off.
(40:31):
You never know when somebody isfilming you or with their phone
recording you and you notice.
I use the old fashioned wordfilming and you never, and you
never know when you're alsogoing to encounter somebody
else's performance, that sort ofweird constant oscillation
between being a spectator beinga performer.
(40:53):
It makes self-knowledge likeactually knowing yourself, like
you're describing, tim, hard.
I do think that that means weneed more analog practices, we
need more analog habits todevelop where we're just sitting
quietly with ourselves.
Develop where we're justsitting quietly with ourselves,
(41:17):
um, and or you know, uh, goingfor walks, uh doing the kind of
elemental human things, um,trying not to do more than one
thing at once as often as we can.
Tim (41:25):
Uh, like these analog practices are are so, so
important for self-knowledgeyeah, they really are um why did
you say oh my god because thewhole, you know, idea of only
working on one thing at a time,if, if, if I could understand
(41:45):
that myself, let alone, you know, with helping other people do
that.
Uh, you know, I find myselfdoing so many different things
at the same time.
You know whether it's goingthrough emails, you know, trying
to read something, trying toput something else together.
I kind of have segmented someof the things that I do and I
(42:10):
try to only work on thing onsome tasks, 15 minutes at a time
.
I'm gonna do this 15 minutes.
I'm gonna do that for 15, okayyeah, that's a good practice but
a lot of things that I'm doingnow requires blocks of time hour
, hour and a half and I after,after after 20 minutes, I've got
to get up and walk away.
(42:31):
It's just the way I go aboutdoing things, the way that I
think.
But again, knowing that andbeing able to plan for that is
important.
But then it takes me so muchlonger to get back on task
because I start back to the oldhabits of talking on the phone
and texting and doing email allat the same time.
Craig (42:57):
I'm with you, tim, I'm with you.
Tim (43:00):
Craig, where can people buy the book and where can they
find what else you're doing?
Craig (43:05):
I believe the phrase is wherever books are sold.
Probably the easiest place tosnatch it would be on Amazon.
I, I would love it if you'd goto, uh, you know half price
books or you know some uh moreindependent, uh bookseller.
That'd be great, um, and youcan also connect with me, uh, at
(43:28):
the mode switchcom.
That's my landing website andthere you can find the book and
also sign up for my newsletter.
So that's the mode switchcom.
So, yeah, I'd be honored ifpeople would pick up my book and
start halfway through, like youdid read a chapter here, go
jump to the end, read a chapterthere and then, yeah, send me a
(43:51):
note, tell me what you think,how you, how you experience
these stories and these insights.
Tim (43:57):
Yeah, I think you're going to learn a lot if you buy the
book and get into it andactually think about it, don't
you?
To me, this isn't a book thatyou just read the book and you
put it down.
This is a book where you readthe book and you and you think
about it and process it and andhow, how it affects you and how
you can make some smalladjustments.
(44:19):
You don't have to make bigadjustments.
Craig (44:20):
it can be small, incremental adjustments yeah,
thank you for saying that, tim.
I I really appreciate yourattention to the, to the work of
the book I.
I do think that it's like partmemoir I'm working through my
own stuff.
It's also part social science,like I'm, you know, doing this
research with risingprofessionals, and it's also
(44:41):
sort of a like a a kind ofspiritual guide as well, like
thinking through the issues ofwhat it means to be human in
these digital spaces today.
So it's all of that, and if youcan latch onto a part of that
and say, hey, this is helpfulfor me, that's great, that's
super.
Tim (44:59):
I hate to even say this.
I gotta say it because I all myreading is digital.
Craig, I can't.
No apology needed man, I can't.
I can't because I, you know, Itake my iPad with me almost
everywhere I go, yeah, and Icause I don't get a lot of time
to.
You know, in this profession weread.
(45:22):
We read more than people everimagined that we read.
But when I go to read thingsthat I want to read about that's
, you know, I can pull out theiPad for 10 or 15 minutes and
actually and not worry about, oh, I didn't bring my book, or I
didn't bring.
Craig (45:41):
Oh yeah, that's me, that's me constantly.
Where did I put that book?
Tim (45:54):
And so that's.
And when I started doing that,I mean I can't go back, because
what people don't understand isyou can still take notes.
I tell my wife she, she is a, abook person.
I said you can still take notesin it, I still write it.
I mean you can still do allthose other things, but anyway,
and and so what?
My point was?
Uh, bookshoporg now also sellsebooks, which which I, you know.
(46:15):
Bookshoporg now also sellse-books, which you know
bookshoporg is.
You know all local booksellersand I agree with you, I'd much
rather people go to the localstores.
You know those types of things.
It helps a lot of things, helpsthat local store owner, helps
the local economy, does allthose kinds of things.
(46:36):
So bookshopsorg and I don'tknow if yours is electronically
there yet or not, but go look.
Craig (46:45):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I would love for people to see how
alternative options might workfor purchasing a book like this.
Tim (46:57):
Exactly.
Craig (46:58):
Yeah, it's available on bookshoporg, so good news there.
Tim (47:01):
There you go.
That's awesome.
Well, Craig, thank you so muchfor spending some time with us
today.
I really do appreciate it.
I think you're doing great workand look forward to talking to
you again soon.
Craig (47:12):
This conversation has been encouraging.
Thanks, Tim.
Tim (47:16):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free ebook Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theFormula for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast
dedicated to helping you unlockthe power of effective public
speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
(00:30):
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is Craig Mattson.
Craig is an organizationalresearcher who serves as a
professor of communication atCalvin University.
He's written several books andnumerous essays, often exploring
communicational complexities oforganizational life, but when
he's not writing and reading andpodcasting, he's enjoying the
(00:53):
natural world hiking, runningand playing driveway pickleball.
Craig lives with his wife Rhodain Grand Rapids, michigan, and
their four adult children live,study and work across the
Midwest.
Greg, welcome to the show.
Craig (01:07):
So grateful to be here, Tim.
So let me ask you a question.
I love the concept of the showand I love talking about talk,
so let's do it.
Tim (01:14):
Well, before we get into that, let me ask you a different
question.
Craig (01:18):
Okay.
Tim (01:20):
How long have you been playing pickleball and are you a
pickleball addict, like a lotof the pickleball people that I
know?
Craig (01:27):
I have been playing for about a year, so I don't know if
I quite have achieved addictstatus.
I finally did go to a realpickleball court a couple of
months ago and I was glad to seethat there were some
transferable skills from mydriveway to the court.
I'm a little scared at how manypeople get injured playing
(01:48):
pickleball, so there are a lotof intense people.
Tim (01:51):
Yes, so I had my knee replaced.
It's been a little over twoyears ago and when I was doing
my rehab in the rehab center,almost every person in there was
there for rehabbing apickleball injury, and so for me
(02:12):
, that that's enough for me toI'm not, I'm just not going to
do it because I'm, I'm at, I'mat the point where, where, where
my body is starting to breakdown based on, you know, the
things I've done, you know myprevious life, and so no, I
don't go skiing, I'm not playingpickleball or tennis.
So I'm the golf addict, I'mthat guy.
(02:35):
But you know, pickleball issomething that has taken off
over the last five to ten years,and it's great over the last
five to 10 years and it's great,you know, here in Hilton Head,
obviously it's a resort town andthis time of year we have the
locals and it's a little bit ofan older population and it's
(02:59):
really just taken over, I meancourts are all over the place.
Craig (03:02):
Yeah, I mean I've enjoyed it as like a way to connect
with my kids.
I've enjoyed it as a way toconnect with neighbors.
But yeah, I haven't becomereally, really skilled at it and
I also haven't become obsessiveabout it yet.
So I don't know if I'm just,like you know, sort of
(03:24):
emotionally compensating there,like I'm not good at it.
So I tell people I'm not anaddict, but I do.
I do enjoy it.
It's a lot of fun.
Tim (03:32):
Well, it is.
I mean, it is a way to get outand exercise and you know if, as
long as you don't get hurtthat's right, that's that's,
that's the key.
And, um, you know it's a lot ofquick.
You know, you know quick moving, stop and go, and you know, at
at least for me in my stage,that that's a recipe for torn
(03:53):
Achilles tendons.
Uh, you know ACL injuries.
Well, and ACL injury, I've onlygot one, one left, but you know
it is what it is.
One left, but you know it iswhat it is.
Well, let's go ahead and getinto the real topics of the day.
(04:13):
Let's talk about your book herefor a second.
You know, how did you developthe idea for the book Digital
Overwhelm?
And because I think it's afascinating topic and I love the
way you laid it out with theexamples, especially the forward
, how you talk about this, it'snot this, it's not this, it's
not this and this is so.
(04:33):
So how do you develop thattopic?
Craig (04:50):
really overwhelmed, I think.
Um, in 2022, I interviewed someuh 47, gen Z and millennial
professionals and I asked them akind of open-ended question how
are you coping with theintensities of life and work in
the early 2020s?
And you remember that time.
We're kind of still in thattime and still're sure yeah
still in it.
Um, but yeah, as I listened totheir stories and they had some
jaw-dropping stories about whatit's like to be at work today um
(05:14):
, yeah, I, I kind of summed itup as digital overwhelm and then
that was just like a catchyphrase and I found that a lot of
people, as soon as I used thatphrase, would say, oh yeah, I'm
totally in that, but then I hadto do the work of defining it
and that took a little bit morecareful scholarship and
reflection.
Tim (05:37):
Yeah, I mean I look around at just the people that I know.
I mean I look around at justthe people that I know.
I think I don't know thatthere's anybody that's not in
digital overwhelm unless you're,unless you're a kid Right and
your and your and your parentshave have, really kind of you
know, said we're setting limitson screen time and screen time
(05:59):
could be computer TV.
What have you?
Craig (06:03):
I mean if you're.
Tim (06:04):
I don't know anybody that.
That's that.
Craig (06:06):
That's not in digital yeah, I've met one person, one
guy.
I had a student in a class andhe told me I don't think I'm
digitally overwhelmed, so godbless him.
God bless him.
I mean, yeah, he's a fortunatesoul.
But most people I've talked tohave have said exactly they have
that sort of aha factor like,yes, that totally names where I
(06:26):
live.
Tim (06:27):
Yeah, and I don't know if you know this, we have a couple
of things in common that I'm notsure you know about.
You know, I left my firstacademic position after 16 years
for a number of reasons, kindof along the lines of what, from
what I understand you, youweren't really interested in
(06:48):
leaving your first position.
That's right, right.
I, I was at a point where I Ifelt that I had accomplished
everything I wanted toaccomplish and I didn't want to
move forward at that institution, and so I.
(07:09):
So I was.
I was looking and I went toGeorgia state university, which
was a very different institutionthan where I came from.
I came from a small, private,4,500 student, not very diverse
to you know, a division to an R1.
Craig (07:29):
So yeah, Georgia State would be a very different sort
of institution.
Tim (07:33):
Yeah, urban, and it reinvigorated me for a time
until until COVID hit.
And that's that's when Irealized for you know me that
digital overwhelm had reallykind of I wouldn't say sucked
the life out of me, but hit mepretty hard.
Craig (07:55):
Yeah, I closely identify with that to define digital
overwhelm as the intersection oftech development, rapid tech
development, and just emotionalupwelling in yourself.
And when those two things, youknow, meet, the emotional
(08:17):
upwelling, all the feelings, andthen just like the constant
riptide of technologicaldevelopment, like the constant
uh riptide of technologicaldevelopment.
For us in covid it, you know,was trying to get used to the
zoom room, um, and, you know,accustom ourselves to digital
spaces, but also the smartphone,um and its many capacities, the
(08:37):
, the, the joy of reels oninstagram and tiktok, but also
the addiction and thecompulsiveness and sometimes the
political ugliness of that.
Tim (08:48):
So it's just a lot, it's just a lot, so how did you deal
with it?
Craig (08:56):
I was.
Honestly I can't say that Ihave like figured out a way to
master this.
I wouldn't like hold myself upas like a moral exemplar here,
but I, I mean, I have found somepractices that I use to try to
keep myself.
Coming back to my center, Istart the day, you know, and in
(09:18):
a pretty boring quiet way.
You know.
I write in my journal about whathappened the day before um, and
that I often find just the workof handwriting um is a very
sort of centering thing.
I also try to read, uh, everyday, apart from a screen.
(09:38):
So, um, I, you know, look atbooks, that old technology, and
then I think you know thegoodness, like you've been
mentioning, of just beingoutside and being in the natural
world.
All those have been sort ofcentering practices.
But I have to say that, againand again, dealing with digital
(09:59):
overwhelm is not a one-timeconversion experience.
I mean, you keep returning tothe work.
Some of the wealthiest peoplein the world, some of the most
powerful technologies in theworld, are really trying to
harvest our attention andmonetize it, and so we, you know
, the resistance to that is justan every single day thing.
Tim (10:24):
It's funny and I'm not using the term funny, ha-ha, but
it's funny how the whole ideaof addiction right.
When we talk about addiction tothings like we would normally
think of alcohol, drugs,gambling, food.
I would say that the digitalworld is also an addiction, but
(10:54):
we never truly really talk aboutit or address it on a bigger,
wider scale at home or in a teamat work, but it's not really
talked about on the macro levelpublicly.
Yeah.
Craig (11:13):
Yeah, I think it's baffling to people on the macro
level what to do about it.
You know, you do see someprominent figures trying to
address it the Surgeon Generaltrying to address the problems
of kids' use of smartphones.
Jonathan Haidt, a moralfoundations psychologist, he's
(11:36):
thought a lot about this andhe's gained some prominence
advising schools and parents topull away from their kids' use
of smartphones.
And then you know the TikTokconversation in Congress and in
the White House.
(11:56):
That just sort of exhibits theconfusion that we feel about
this and the difficulty of doinganything.
On a sort of macro level.
My book really looks at whatyou might call like a mezzo
level, like a middle level Right, how, how, you know, not just
yourself, but in the sort ofcircle of choice that you and
(12:19):
your co-workers have, what canyou do?
What can you do?
What can you share?
Um, how can we keep human there?
Tim (12:27):
yeah, and I, I, I like the conversation that you had with
um I think it was, uh, andreamonday, uh, on on one of your
episodes and I, I, I reallyrelated to some of the things
that she was saying, because inmy world I get some of those
(12:48):
things with the familyemergencies and the family
tragedies and you know to be inthose positions and then have to
go to you know, for me it wasdepartment chair and dean have
to go to you know, for me it wasdepartment chair and Dean.
You know, for other people it's, you know, supervisor, boss,
whatever coworkers, whatever itis and say you know I've got to
(13:13):
go, I've got, I have to dealwith with these things and being
okay with that.
Craig (13:24):
And so I really related to yeah to those stories.
Yeah, me too.
I andrea's stories were some ofthe most important for me in
the book too.
Tim (13:27):
Digital overwhelm yes, I think in some ways she was a
real wake-up call to me you know, and I've said this on on
podcast before, when I get abook, I don't start at chapter
one.
That's, I'm not.
I'm, that's I opened, I openedthe table of contents and I say,
wow, that's interesting.
(13:47):
Now I'm going to start here.
So, unless, so, unless somebodytells me to, you have to start
chapter one and read all the waythrough, I, I don't.
I don't do that.
Um, good for you, because Iwill eventually read up, read
all of them.
And the chapter that had that,that, when I opened it up, was
the chapter on meaning, and thatjust also happened to be the
(14:09):
chapter that andrea was in thatand that was that was that was
not kind of planned as I wasgoing through this at all um
yeah, I think his name was devonum, I mean his, I mean really,
really powerful stories that arerelatable.
And you know you talk aboutintergenerational communication.
(14:31):
Why are we as because I put theblame on us as the elders, the
older generation why aren't wedoing more to have those
conversations and to understandthe communication differences
(14:53):
better?
Craig (14:56):
I don't have a great answer to that.
I think intergenerationalcommunication is sort of
kindergarten stuff, like it'sbasic respect, care, empathy,
curiosity.
This is stuff we know how to dowhen we're five years old but
for some reason it just keepsrecurring as a problem in the
American workplace.
(15:17):
I do think some of it comesdown to technological changes.
You know, the olders among usare like yeah, I don't want to
change things, I like the way wedid it, and the youngers are
all up for the world ofperplexity and chat, gpt and
other.
You know massive renovationsand how we do work today.
(15:41):
So I think that's a factor.
But honestly, it really doescome down to being humble enough
to listen to people who have adifferent experience than you.
I mean, that's pretty basicstuff, it's not fancy.
Tim (15:54):
It's not, and I don't think that and I don't know that it's
changed ever, because I knowwhen I was younger, the boomers
and so forth they didn't startcoming to us and say or talk to
(16:16):
us about how we communicate.
It was you fall in line.
There wasn't any realdiscussion about it.
This is how we're going to dothings and this, this is what
we're going to do.
Um, yeah and uh, yeah, you knowso, but I think we're at we're.
I think we're at a time reallybecause of technology and the
(16:40):
how quickly technology changesand the amount of access that we
have to information, howquickly that changes.
If we don't start to look at howthe younger generations
communicate, we're really goingto be in trouble.
So I don't know how much youknow about some of the lingo,
(17:02):
that like cap and all thoseother things, and I just
sometimes I'll go through andI'll see what things mean and
I'll talk to my 30-year-old kidsand I'll start using those
words and they get upset and Isaid, look, you better start
learning these things becauseyou know you've got kids.
Because you know you've gotkids.
Craig (17:29):
But that's I mean, I do it kind of as a joke, but also
halfway serious too, because youneed to know how to communicate
with them.
Yeah, I do think language is ahuge, huge dimension of this.
I'm so glad you brought it up.
I'm not surprised becauseyou're you're riding a wave and
(18:03):
the wave, the board.
Staying flexible, staying agile, like you're trying to do, like
I think that's, I think that'swisdom, but it's not comfortable
.
And the reason that the boomerstold us Xers, you know, fall in
line is like there's there'sit's hard to run a company, it's
hard to run an organization,there's, there's it's hard to
(18:24):
run a company, it's hard to runan organization.
And when you've got a bunch of,you know, young kids in there,
we're going to destabilizethings.
It probably makes a certainsense to tell them to shut up
and get in line.
But honestly, in the long run,it's not wisdom, right, Like, in
the long run, it's better tosay, yeah, I think this is the
way we should do things.
(18:45):
But how are you seeing it fromyour angle?
And even if, at the end of theday, you do things the way you
know, you think they need to bedone because you're running the
company or the team.
Just the fact that you'reopening up your framework and
you're allowing other voices inlike you're going to be better
in the situation and the team'sgoing to be better.
Tim (19:05):
So yeah, yeah, and they're going to feel like they have
ownership too and be moreinvested into whatever it is,
whatever it is.
Craig (19:13):
Yeah, that's wisdom, yep.
Tim (19:15):
Yep, but it is hard.
I think you know we talked abit about offline when I
realized that I was old and andthat I better start doing things
a bit different.
But where do you come down onthe whole idea of technology in
the classroom Phones, computers,ipads Because that's a that's a
tough and sticky one too.
Craig (19:35):
It sure is.
There is no easy answer on that.
I have colleagues who like havepretty strict rules, like have
pretty strict rules.
I have a friend, a millennialfriend, who is a professor, and
she puts up one of those.
I don't know if you've everseen these like back of the door
shoe holders.
You kind of put your shoes inthem.
Well, she has one for phones,so everybody's got a pocket that
(19:57):
when they come in the room theyslide their phone in.
I don't do that.
I do tend to be a little bitlax, and what I do is basically
try to cultivate techmindfulness in the room.
So I'll say, look, I have veryfew rules here.
I'm not going to police you,I'm not going to surveil you,
but I would ask you to bemindful.
(20:17):
What are you doing and why areyou doing that right now, and
what does it have to do withwhat the rest of us are doing?
And so I periodically just havethese little meditations where
I say, yeah, like it's halfwaythrough the semester, so let's
kind of return to this, thisdigital fact of our lives, that
(20:39):
we just have all thesealgorithms and notifications
that are really trying tomonetize our eyeballs.
And do you want that, is thatwhat you want for your life and
what are our goals here?
So I kind of try to talk peoplethrough it rather than
legislating through itno-transcript numbers.
Tim (21:32):
So they gave me their phone number.
So I would sit back and I wouldwatch.
And if they started, if theircomputer was open and they were
doing something else, I'd textthem put it away.
And they were doing somethingelse, I'd text them put it away.
Put it away, put it away, youknow because if you want to do
that with I, don't care from theperspective.
If you want to do that with me,that's fine.
We'll have a differentconversation.
(21:53):
But there's when, when we haveguests, guests in, we need to
act professional and show, show,show respect in those types of
things.
But I was also really lax, likeyou.
Um, it's, you know, we all haveto make decisions yeah, that's
right.
Craig (22:10):
We all got to make choices and you know it's I.
Tim (22:14):
I hope that you're gonna make good choices and I'll help
you make good choices.
I'll put you in positions tomake good choices, but
ultimately it's up to you yeahand so it's in positions to make
good choices, but ultimatelyit's up to you.
Yeah, and so it's it's.
It's hard, though, when youknow you you're, you're going
(22:35):
through and you, you knowthey're not paying attention.
That's actually a good thing.
Craig (22:38):
That goes off, just so you know goes off, just so you
know, gotta fix this.
So, but uh well, I mean, I wasthinking that that part of the
reason I'm lax is that it's notall up to us.
Like it really frustrates methat these, um, very large
corporations are so powerful.
(22:59):
Um, I I don't know that I canactually be angry with my
students or with my coworkers orthe people around me if they
get distracted.
Oh my gosh, like who do I thinkthey are?
They're not, you know, a saintfrom the second century.
They're they.
They are just ordinary peoplelike me, and I'm as distractible
(23:21):
as the rest.
Like me and I'm as distractibleas the rest.
So I think we have to givegrace to each other, even as we
try to help each other, keep ourbalance and try to find some
digital health.
Tim (23:30):
Yeah, and you know the whole idea of you know, and my
wife and I have thisconversation on a regular basis.
I'm I wouldn't say that I'mgreat, but I'm fairly good if,
if I'm having a conversationwith somebody where I'm involved
in something and the phonevibrates, I'm I'm pretty good
with not looking at it.
Craig (23:53):
the only time I do.
Tim (23:55):
The only time I do is if, if, like my, my, because my kids
have a different vibration andtone, my wife has a different
vibration and tone, my wife hasa different vibration and tone.
So when they go off, sure,those, those I stop.
You know, almost all the time,and I'm not again I'm not saying
that I'm perfect with this, butyou know I, I think if, if we
(24:17):
can, um, if we can just justpractice, at times it's okay
that you know whatever's comingthrough on Tik TOK or whatever's
coming through in that textmessage, as long as nobody's
head's falling off, you don'thave to necessarily deal with
that, whatever, it is right that.
Second, you know my wife's inreal estate and we were having a
(24:38):
serious conversation the otherday and one of her clients
texted and she stopped rightmid-sentence and I said well,
what are you doing?
She said I'm gonna lose a sale.
You're you know what.
You're not gonna lose a sale ifyou don't respond in 10 seconds
.
That's not, that's not how itworks, you know.
So that's, we've just beenconditioned.
(24:59):
The phone bings it.
It's like Pavlov's dog, youknow, that's.
That's kind of how I look at it.
We got, we got.
We got to look at it, we got tolook at it, yeah.
Craig (25:09):
Yeah, we get a little dopamine hit and it's hard to
resist.
It's hard to resist.
Tim (25:14):
Yeah, so what can we do with with young professionals in
terms of building, you know,meaningful connections in tech,
heavy environments?
You know, the way I look at itis, I don't care how much
technology it is, how much AI,how much of all these other
technological things that aregoing on.
To me, everything is aboutpersonal relationships and we
(25:36):
have to we have to not onlybuild but cultivate those
personal relationships.
So how can we do that with ouryoung professionals and our kids
to, to get them to understandthat and get to that point?
Craig (25:52):
Well, I think what I learned in my research is that,
yeah, I mean, a lot of youngprofessionals are figuring this
out.
They're, they're grokking it,to use you know a slang term
they're, they're.
They're grokking it, to use youknow a slang term they're,
they're.
They're doing the work tofigure out how to be human in
these digital spaces.
So it's not always a matter ofhow do we coach them.
(26:14):
It's sometimes a matter of whathave they figured out about
something that you know we mightfeel a little confused about
ourselves, but I think there aretimes when, as a manager, for
instance, if you're a millennialmanager and you've got Gen Z
team members where you mighthave to, you know you might have
to have that conversation whereyou're like what kind of person
(26:37):
do you want to be on this team?
What's the kind of human thatyou're really wanting to be, and
how can we move towards that?
I think the sort of practicalpoint that I have learned about
keeping human in digital spacesis it takes a lot of energy more
(26:58):
energy than you'd think itwould and just like a simple, a
simple fact, when you are in adigital meeting, you just have
there's such a small portalthrough which you have to pour
your whole personality, yourwhole soul and so that that just
takes a lot of energy.
(27:18):
You really do have to lean intothat.
You really do.
You know you have to speak upand I think that is just a sort
of practical reality of digitalcommunication.
Your limits If you can avoidscheduling a ceaseless round of
(27:49):
these kind of digitalperformances that you're doing
with your team, I think thatwill help you to stay sane.
So I think sometimes saying noto a meeting or requesting a
reschedule can be a good way torespond to the digital demands
of the time.
Tim (28:05):
Yeah, that's hard too.
I mean that is yeah, I justthink about it from you know,
from my perspective, and what Isee you know some of the other
people I'm dealing with goingthrough, it's constant and it's
nonstop.
Craig (28:26):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's hard to say no, uh, especially
if you're a younger professional.
You you may wonder, like can Isay no in this situation?
Um, but I mean, at the sametime, like the Gen Z folks are
showing themselves quiteproficient at you know, saying
here are my boundaries, here'swhat I got to deal with.
(28:48):
So I don't know if that's theword that Gen Zs need to hear.
That might be more the wordthat Gen Xers like you and me
need to hear it is.
Tim (28:55):
I definitely agree with that.
Yeah, but that's again for me.
For me it's, it's incrediblydifficult because my personality
is, you know, the whole thingis is I may not be the smartest
person, but I'm, I'm going to,I'm going to make sure that I
(29:17):
outwork you or out, I'll thankyou, or you know, whatever it is
to to to get done.
But when you look at it, Iwould say even millennials have
a much better handle on sayingno.
You know, my youngest daughterGod bless her, I love her to
(29:41):
death.
She really opened my eyes to it, like right before COVID hit.
She was working in a situationshe wasn't happy in.
We talked about it, so you keepdoing your job search.
And she did something thatinfuriated me.
She quit her job by email whileon vacation.
(30:05):
Huh, Wow.
That's gutsy, and I was furious.
I said I mean, you're killingyour personal brand, you're
killing your reputation, you'redoing this, you're doing that.
All the things that we'vealways been told for our
(30:29):
generation.
Right, right, right.
You don't quit your job unlessyou have another job.
You, if you're gonna quit, youdo it in person.
You, you all those things.
And she said dad, I'll be okay,this is how we do it now.
I said no, this isn't how we doit now, but.
But but where she was right wasshe was in a position where, in
(30:55):
her mind, it was untenable andwhere I would have stuck it out
until something else came along.
She said enough was enough, andthat's that's where, where we
have to um, maybe, maybe there'sa better way to to quit and do
those things, but but being ableto make that decision that she
(31:16):
was in a place where she didn'treally wasn't healthy for her
that, I think is is a verypositive thing and needs to be,
I would necessarily say,celebrated, but acknowledged and
and and move forward from thereyeah, tim, I think one of the
things I've been thinking aboutlately is just our attitudes
(31:36):
towards work itself.
Craig (31:39):
And there's your attitude towards your job, which might
be sucky, it might be amazing.
There's your attitude towardsthe tasks you have to do today.
That's another thing, butthere's an underlying,
underlying, often untalked aboutPosture towards work, towards
(32:00):
toil, and it's such a hugereality in human life.
It's not just when we're on thejob, it's in all places of our
lives.
We're working in the yard, inthe house, with our friends, at
church, at school, whateverwe're doing toil all the time.
And so I think one of thebenefits of intergenerational
conversation is that it bringsthat back into our awareness.
We're like oh yeah, I do havean attitude towards work which
(32:21):
comes out when I say things likekids these days don't know how
to work.
That probably needs someinvestigation.
And so in that story with yourdaughter, there's an underlying
attitude towards work that makessense to her and is different
from from your attitude, andprobably both of you can benefit
from that.
(32:41):
There's a kind ofconsiderateness and tact in your
approach to work that yourdaughter probably could learn
from, daughter probably couldlearn from, and then there's a
real strong sense of personalboundaries and limits and
possibilities that you can learnfrom your daughter.
I think that's the beauty ofintergenerational, it's a gift
(33:02):
of intergenerational exchange.
Tim (33:05):
It is, and I think there was some growth on those things,
just like you said, between meand her and how I started to
address things, and that was oneof the pieces that you know
when we talked about when Istarted to realize I was old,
that you know the populationthat I was really working with I
(33:31):
wasn't necessarily relating to,like I thought I was anymore.
Um, from that perspective andand a lot of good, you know, a
lot of good came from that, Ithink, from um, hopefully it
came across.
Hopefully it came across withwith with students and I know it
came across with with mydaughter.
Come back to I put a lot moreonus on us and our generation to
(33:58):
be the ones reaching out tostart these conversations or to
understand how they go aboutdoing things.
Craig (34:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think time is a fundamentally to get a
little philosophical time isjust a weird thing.
It's a little philosophicalTime is just a weird thing.
It's a weird condition and welose track of that.
We just get frustrated by timeor, you know, we get deluded by
how much time we think we have.
(34:28):
But I think hanging out withpeople in different phases of
life can be a really wonderfulway to inhabit time more wisely,
so I love that story from yourdaughter.
Tim (34:41):
I think that's really great .
Yeah, I was.
I was mad, craig, I was mad, Iwas mad.
Oh my God, I was so mad.
And and and again.
You look back on things as, asa parent and I'm sure you do the
same you think why did youreact the way that you reacted?
And I think a lot of times andI'm just speaking for me a lot
of times I react because I can'thelp them at that point.
(35:05):
um, you know, they they putthemselves in a position where,
me being the person that helpspeople I there's nothing I can
do to help you at this stage.
Oh yeah, now you're truly onyour own and I can't fix it.
Craig (35:20):
Uh-huh.
I think that's a really humbleand truthful observation.
I think it comes with parentingadults a lot.
A lot of people feel that, butI think it comes in the
workplace as well.
Um, sometimes, though, justyour presence and your way of
being is itself a kind of help,a kind of resource to other
(35:41):
people.
Sometimes, we think the onlything we have to offer is what
we can say out loud, and maybeit's more of the kind of person
that you manage to be whenyou're near them.
Yeah, and sometimes we just keepthe mouth shut.
It's hard to do, Tim.
Tim (36:01):
It is, it is, it is, it is, it is.
And you talk about theintergenerational communication.
The work that you're doing withyour podcast Mode Switch is
phenomenal and I really amenjoying those conversations
with the different generations.
Me too, me too, I mean justlearning a lot in how they go
(36:27):
about the thought process aswell, the thought process as
well.
Not necessarily, notnecessarily, not always
necessarily what they're saying,but how they go about coming to
the decisions and thoughts thatthey're coming to.
Craig (36:40):
Yes, I I think that's it's a.
It was something I sort ofstumbled into.
I, you know, kind of graduallyfound that, oh my gosh, there
are people of differentgenerations who really want to
talk about what work is like,what it's feeling like today and
I'm thinking about your podcastSpeaking with Confidence, and I
(37:01):
think that a lot of the work ofintergenerational communication
is learning to speak withconfidence from your particular
standpoint.
There's an author named LeslieNewbigin who talks about proper
confidence, and I think there'san appropriate confidence that
we can have when we're in thesekind of complicated and messy
(37:23):
conversations with ourintergenerational teams, um,
where you just say like here'show I'm experiencing the world,
how about you?
And like not avoiding thoseconversations and then also not
like, I don't know, being abully in those conversations.
(37:44):
That's the tricky dance ofspeaking with confidence.
Tim (37:49):
Absolutely, and I think part of that as well is no, no
one knowing who you are, knowinghow you think and how you go
about making decisions and whatyou value.
You know the wholeintrospection and, as we grow,
(38:11):
how that changes.
And I I tell them, tell my, mystudents and clients if you're
still thinking the same way at40 that you did at 20, you're
probably you may be doing itright, but I would suggest that
you're probably, you probablyneed to go back and do some more
introspection.
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know,but but I just, I just know how
(38:36):
the way I go about doing thingsnow is different than the way I
did it 10 years ago.
The way I think about things,you know the way.
Just my core values haven'tchanged, but the way I
communicate them has changed.
The way I come across haschanged, or the way I think
communicate them has changed.
The way I come across haschanged, or the way I think
about them has changed, and Ithink we need to do a better job
(38:57):
.
You know all the way arounddoing that because then again we
get away from the whole idea ofworrying about what other
people think of us and how thataffects what we do and what we
think and what we say and how wego about it.
Going back to TikTok, you knowwe put so much value in what
(39:21):
somebody who we don't knowthinks is important, what value
we put on the clothes that wewear, what value we put on how
we look.
You know, whatever it is that,to me, has to, we really have to
get away from that and startworrying about yourself and
(39:44):
thinking about who you are as anindividual and not worrying
about some of these other things.
Craig (39:49):
I do think self-knowledge is a real source of strength
and wisdom.
It's not easy.
Today, I think there are a pairof sociologists that I read
when I was in grad school andone of their insights has just
stayed with me over all my yearsof teaching Abercrombie and and
(40:10):
um Longhurst and and they wrotethis book about audiences.
And they said today we all feellike and they were writing,
writing this in like 1999.
So it was a long time ago.
But, um, they said, today weall feel like we are spectators
and performers at the same time.
And so you know that's a hardrole to carry off.
(40:31):
You never know when somebody isfilming you or with their phone
recording you and you notice.
I use the old fashioned wordfilming and you never, and you
never know when you're alsogoing to encounter somebody
else's performance, that sort ofweird constant oscillation
between being a spectator beinga performer.
(40:53):
It makes self-knowledge likeactually knowing yourself, like
you're describing, tim, hard.
I do think that that means weneed more analog practices, we
need more analog habits todevelop where we're just sitting
quietly with ourselves.
Develop where we're justsitting quietly with ourselves,
(41:17):
um, and or you know, uh, goingfor walks, uh doing the kind of
elemental human things, um,trying not to do more than one
thing at once as often as we can.
Tim (41:25):
Uh, like these analog practices are are so, so
important for self-knowledgeyeah, they really are um why did
you say oh my god because thewhole, you know, idea of only
working on one thing at a time,if, if, if I could understand
(41:45):
that myself, let alone, you know, with helping other people do
that.
Uh, you know, I find myselfdoing so many different things
at the same time.
You know whether it's goingthrough emails, you know, trying
to read something, trying toput something else together.
I kind of have segmented someof the things that I do and I
(42:10):
try to only work on thing onsome tasks, 15 minutes at a time
.
I'm gonna do this 15 minutes.
I'm gonna do that for 15, okayyeah, that's a good practice but
a lot of things that I'm doingnow requires blocks of time hour
, hour and a half and I after,after after 20 minutes, I've got
to get up and walk away.
(42:31):
It's just the way I go aboutdoing things, the way that I
think.
But again, knowing that andbeing able to plan for that is
important.
But then it takes me so muchlonger to get back on task
because I start back to the oldhabits of talking on the phone
and texting and doing email allat the same time.
Craig (42:57):
I'm with you, tim, I'm with you.
Tim (43:00):
Craig, where can people buy the book and where can they
find what else you're doing?
Craig (43:05):
I believe the phrase is wherever books are sold.
Probably the easiest place tosnatch it would be on Amazon.
I, I would love it if you'd goto, uh, you know half price
books or you know some uh moreindependent, uh bookseller.
That'd be great, um, and youcan also connect with me, uh, at
(43:28):
the mode switchcom.
That's my landing website andthere you can find the book and
also sign up for my newsletter.
So that's the mode switchcom.
So, yeah, I'd be honored ifpeople would pick up my book and
start halfway through, like youdid read a chapter here, go
jump to the end, read a chapterthere and then, yeah, send me a
(43:51):
note, tell me what you think,how you, how you experience
these stories and these insights.
Tim (43:57):
Yeah, I think you're going to learn a lot if you buy the
book and get into it andactually think about it, don't
you?
To me, this isn't a book thatyou just read the book and you
put it down.
This is a book where you readthe book and you and you think
about it and process it and andhow, how it affects you and how
you can make some smalladjustments.
(44:19):
You don't have to make bigadjustments.
Craig (44:20):
it can be small, incremental adjustments yeah,
thank you for saying that, tim.
I I really appreciate yourattention to the, to the work of
the book I.
I do think that it's like partmemoir I'm working through my
own stuff.
It's also part social science,like I'm, you know, doing this
research with risingprofessionals, and it's also
(44:41):
sort of a like a a kind ofspiritual guide as well, like
thinking through the issues ofwhat it means to be human in
these digital spaces today.
So it's all of that, and if youcan latch onto a part of that
and say, hey, this is helpfulfor me, that's great, that's
super.
Tim (44:59):
I hate to even say this.
I gotta say it because I all myreading is digital.
Craig, I can't.
No apology needed man, I can't.
I can't because I, you know, Itake my iPad with me almost
everywhere I go, yeah, and Icause I don't get a lot of time
to.
You know, in this profession weread.
(45:22):
We read more than people everimagined that we read.
But when I go to read thingsthat I want to read about that's
, you know, I can pull out theiPad for 10 or 15 minutes and
actually and not worry about, oh, I didn't bring my book, or I
didn't bring.
Craig (45:41):
Oh yeah, that's me, that's me constantly.
Where did I put that book?
Tim (45:54):
And so that's.
And when I started doing that,I mean I can't go back, because
what people don't understand isyou can still take notes.
I tell my wife she, she is a, abook person.
I said you can still take notesin it, I still write it.
I mean you can still do allthose other things, but anyway,
and and so what?
My point was?
Uh, bookshoporg now also sellsebooks, which which I, you know.
(46:15):
Bookshoporg now also sellse-books, which you know
bookshoporg is.
You know all local booksellersand I agree with you, I'd much
rather people go to the localstores.
You know those types of things.
It helps a lot of things, helpsthat local store owner, helps
the local economy, does allthose kinds of things.
(46:36):
So bookshopsorg and I don'tknow if yours is electronically
there yet or not, but go look.
Craig (46:45):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I would love for people to see how
alternative options might workfor purchasing a book like this.
Tim (46:57):
Exactly.
Craig (46:58):
Yeah, it's available on bookshoporg, so good news there.
Tim (47:01):
There you go.
That's awesome.
Well, Craig, thank you so muchfor spending some time with us
today.
I really do appreciate it.
I think you're doing great workand look forward to talking to
you again soon.
Craig (47:12):
This conversation has been encouraging.
Thanks, Tim.
Tim (47:16):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free ebook Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theFormula for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
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