November 10, 2025 • 56 mins
Have you ever wondered how your written communication—resumes, LinkedIn profiles, career documents—can truly reflect who you are and ensure you're projecting the same confidence and authenticity in person as you do on paper? If you’ve found yourself stuck, unsure how to craft your professional story, or if you want your talents and personality to leap off the page and into your interviews, this episode is for you.
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence! Today, I dive into the art and science of translating your professional story onto paper, a skill just as essential as public speaking. I’m joined by Amy Adler, a nationally recognized career strategist and founder of Five Strengths Career Transition Experts. Amy is an expert in coaching executives and professionals to tell their stories in amazing, impactful ways—helping them shine in written formats and feel truly confident when meeting hiring teams.
Here’s what we covered in this episode:
- How life experiences and regional culture shape communication, both written and spoken
- Why adapting your style to meet people where they are (“The Platinum Rule”) builds trust and connection
- Listening as a superpower for introverts—and transforming introversion into powerful coaching and storytelling
- Building confidence by reframing your career journey as a forward-thinking, impactful story
- Techniques for career transition: defining strategy, setting attainable goals, and building momentum
- The power of authenticity and congruence between your written documents and your real self in interviews
- Advice for young professionals and higher education: letting students tell their whole story, not just check boxes
- Breaking through fear and vulnerability in the job search by seeking expert help—and why it’s a sign of strength, not weakness
- How collaborative coaching and resume writing can transform personal narratives, boost self-belief, and elevate career outcomes
If you’re ready to bridge the gap between your resume and your real, confident self—and learn strategies that make your written communication truly impactful—give this episode a listen. Huge thanks to Amy Adler for sharing her wisdom and experience with such empathy and clarity. And thank you for tuning in to Speaking with Confidence!
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Tim Newman (00:10):
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead to real
results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turn
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on a
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is Amy Adler.
(00:30):
Amy is a nationally recognizedcareer and resume strategist who
has spent years helpingexecutives, professionals, and
even students tell their storieson paper in a way that gets
them noticed.
She's the founder of FiveStrengths Career Transition
Experts, a speaker at nationalconferences, and a coach who
knows how to translate a careerinto powerful language that
actually opens doors.
(00:52):
So if you've ever wondered howto make your resume or LinkedIn
profile reflect who you reallyare and how to make sure it
matches up with what you say inthe interview, this is the
episode for you.
Amy's here to show us howwritten communication can be
just as impactful as a spokenword.
Amy, it's so good to see you.
Welcome to the show.
Amy Adler (01:11):
Hello, thank you so much for having me today.
Tim Newman (01:15):
You've lived all over the place, and I I love
having people like you onbecause you know as we travel,
we we see things that people whowho stay in one location
necessarily don't.
So how has your your lifeexperiences and and travels
influenced the way that youcommunicate, whether it's in in
speaking or writing?
Amy Adler (01:36):
What an interesting question.
Um I I think part of it is uhintegrating when when you have
to integrate into a new place.
And as you say, I've lived kindof all over the place, all
across the country, from theEast Coast to the Inner Mountain
West.
And and the cultures are verydifferent.
So the New York Minute is areal thing.
And out in Salt Lake City,things are very slow and um in
(02:02):
in a pleasant way.
So adapting to the local color,I think, is is really
important.
Uh if we're seeking to interactwith people in a way that they
expect to be interacted with.
So I think in terms of writing,so that's that's speaking, but
in terms of writing, I think oneof the things that I have found
(02:24):
as a resume writer is that thefarther west I seem to go, the
less um the less willing peopleare to shine a light on
themselves and showcasethemselves and talk about
themselves.
Um, and the interesting thingis hiring teams don't care where
(02:44):
where you live in in thatsense.
They're not looking for uh youto to be very self-effacing in
your communication style whenyou're applying for a job.
So coaxing that out of peopleand helping them shine has been
really terrific.
Tim Newman (02:59):
Yeah, that that's a that's really interesting.
Um, because I I I've neverthought about that from a
writing perspective and and howread regions really approach it.
Uh, but I I I can see I cankind of see that, you know, in
my travels.
Now, I've never lived out west,but I've I've traveled
extensively out there and um asyou know, like like you say,
(03:22):
it's it's way more laid back,it's slower, but I never really
thought about that from from awriting perspective of how um,
and we'll talk about this herein a second, how maybe we we
become become more introvertedin our writing as opposed to our
speaking.
You know.
I remember when I moved from II did my doctorate down in
(03:43):
Mobile, Alabama, and when Ifirst got down there, I I it
took me a while to adjust.
Coming from the Northeast, youknow, we you know, we're moving,
we're popping, we're you know,we we we think fast, we talk
fast.
And you go down there, and Iremember telling my wife, I've
got to plan two hours to go tothe grocery store because people
will just stop and they'll talkto you.
You know, and that that thatwas was kind of a culture shock
(04:07):
uh for for me.
So so I kind of get it.
Amy Adler (04:10):
Yeah, I will tell you a story that my husband
reported to me when we wereliving in Minnesota.
We just moved there and uh heworked in a building with a
fairly tall, like a longelevator ride.
And he came home one day andsort of in in astonishment said,
I got into the elevator at worktoday, and somebody I'd never
seen before, had no interactionwith prior, looked at me,
(04:34):
grinned, and said, I quitsmoking 10 years ago today.
And he said, Congratulations,but he had no idea why this
person was revealing thisdetail.
And as we lived there longer,it became very clear that you
couldn't go to the grocery storefor less than two hours.
And you, you know, you weremeeting people that you knew in
this very small town.
Um, and people were very openand very willing to share um
(04:56):
kind of what what we thoughtwere extremely personal details
with complete strangers, but inthe most genuine, kind and
loving way.
Tim Newman (05:04):
Right.
And it's it's why why why do youthink it's not the same from a
from a writing perspective?
Because that to me that that'sjust to me, it would seem that
we would be more open with withwriting, because that's that's
to me, that's a a much morepersonal thing that maybe we
don't think people are are gonnasee or or or judge like like
(05:27):
speaking.
Amy Adler (05:29):
Yeah, you know what?
I really don't know.
Um, since I I launched myresume writing practice in Salt
Lake City, I I kind of only hadthat perspective, but I was very
surprised that in ourinteractions, in my in my
interactions with my clients, Iwas always the fast-talking one.
Tim (05:45):
Right.
Amy Adler (05:46):
And I had to learn to slow down and and frankly learn
to listen better, you know, usethose active listening skills
in a way that um I I didn't,it's not that I didn't use them,
it's just I didn't use them inthe same way.
And providing a real space,like a space with boundaries for
(06:07):
them to say what they wanted tosay without that New York
interruption all the time, youknow, sort of state of being.
Um, that I found very normal.
Uh I quickly learned was notvery normal.
So communicating with peoplethe way they expected really
helped a lot.
And slowing down to the pointwhere I felt I was crawling,
(06:29):
speaking the way I am right nowis incredibly slow to me.
But I think it helps theaudience or my audience
understand what I'm asking andconvinces them in some way that
I'm really listening.
Um, of course, I would belistening anyway, but showing
them.
Tim Newman (06:47):
Yeah, and that and I I also think that that that's a
that's a learned skill.
So, you know, slow in our ifwe're not slow in our thoughts,
at least we're we're slow in ourspeech.
You know, we're we're we'rewe're slowing down um how how we
come across.
And for you know, for me, eventhough I am from you know the
the the northeast, I've alwaysbeen kind of a slow slower
(07:08):
talker because I have to bebecause of how my brain works,
you know, the AD ADHD.
If I just spewed out everythingthat comes into my head, it w
it it it wouldn't be good.
You know, so so learning howhow to slow down and actually
communicate the things that youactually want to communicate,
and the whole idea that you thatyou brought up of you know the
platinum rule, uh meeting peoplewhere they want to be meeted,
(07:32):
uh meeting where they want to bemeet, meeting people where they
want to be met uh is is soimportant and communicating how
they want to be communicated tooreally does build a much deeper
connection with the audience.
Amy Adler (07:46):
And if my goal then is to help people find a way to
trust me, uh, which I know hasto be extremely difficult.
In many cases, we've never metface to face.
We don't know each other, wemight have a mutual connection.
But I have to convince themsomehow that I'm on their side,
that I'm listening, and that I'mgoing to do right by them in in
(08:06):
one of the most importantdecisions or or thought
processes of their lives.
Um, maybe third, let's put itthird after finding a life
partner and maybe having kids,getting a job is is going to be
the next big thing.
Yeah.
Tim (08:20):
Right.
Amy Adler (08:20):
So helping helping them feel as comfortable as
possible and giving them as muchof the floor as they want is
key.
And um sometimes communicatingfor me is saying nothing.
Just letting them, letting themtalk, um, giving them the
space, like I said, becausethat's what they really want.
They want to listen to somebodywho is empathetic, who's gonna
(08:44):
listen, who's gonna turn whatthey are saying into something
compelling for their futureaudiences.
Um I often joke in my firstsort of introductory call with
people, I talk a lot about howthis works and what I'm gonna do
and answer their questions, andthen almost uniformly, almost
uniformly tell them, this is themost I'm ever going to speak.
(09:08):
I want to ask you questions andI want this to be your space.
And I think people aresurprised by that because I
don't think many people have hadthe opportunity to be asked all
these questions and then givenas much unfettered room as they
want to say what they want tosay.
Tim Newman (09:25):
Yeah, but because I think you know, most of the
time, you know, when when we'rehaving conversations with
people, we're waiting for forour turn to talk.
We're not actually listeningand and trying to um understand
uh what the pe whoever it isthat we're communicating with,
what they're actually saying.
And you know, when you when youcome across somebody uh like
(09:46):
like you who, especially in inthe professional setting, you're
trying to help them.
If you don't listen, there's noway that you can help them.
If you don't let them say thethings that they need to say or
get across the things that theyneed to get across, there's
really no way that you can trulyhelp them, you know, meet the
goals that that they're thatthey're trying to meet.
Amy Adler (10:06):
And it also gives them a chance to maybe for the
first time ever talk about thesethings that are in their heads,
their experiences, their goals,their hopes for themselves, and
and launch that discussion sothat this is the first time
they're having this discussion,but certainly not the last.
Because I think the worst timeto start that conversation with
(10:28):
with yourself or to prepare whatyou want to say, the worst time
to start that is actually inthe interview.
Because that's the that's arecipe for panic.
And nobody wants that.
And I certainly don't want thatfor the the job seekers who are
engaging me to help them dobetter than than they could do
on their own.
Tim Newman (10:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, you you and meare are are very similar in in a
lot of things.
Um, you're an introvert and soam I.
And here's here's where I thinkwe differ a little bit.
Uh you love public speaking.
I I I like it.
I you know, it's a to me, Iwouldn't say it's a necessary
evil.
I I like it, but um you loveit.
(11:07):
And and how how is being anintrovert uh really influence
your your style of coaching andresume writing?
Because again, you know,transferring who we who we seem
to be outwardly, even as anintrovert, and transferring that
into the written form, it'sit's truly an art form.
Amy Adler (11:24):
So I think there's that's a whole bunch of
questions, I feel like.
Um sorry.
No, no, it's good.
Um, but I will tell you, sowhen I was a kid, getting up and
doing the book report in frontof the classroom or whatever it
was was torture.
I genuinely had, you know,shaking knees and quavering
voice.
I was terrible at presenting,and I'm sure I looked like I was
(11:48):
having a terrible time becauseI was.
Um, but something reallyexciting happened to me as I
became an adult, andparticularly in business school.
Um, so I was an introvert mywhole life, and that didn't
change.
And I definitely rechargeslowly um and expend energy
fast, right?
Um, but in in business school,we had to present so much that
(12:10):
it was almost a weekly thing.
And I just got used to it.
And all of a sudden I realizedit wasn't quite as scary as I
had thought it was in the past.
And I really, I was, I wasgenuinely terrified, whether
from a sense of um introversionor at that point shyness or just
the sense that I felt likeeveryone was judging me.
And I'm sure they weren'tbecause people are never as
interested in you as they are inthemselves.
(12:30):
I definitely know that now.
Um, but it became this I lovedhaving this sense of command
over the room and to share whatI knew and to feel like an
expert.
Um, so taking that expertiseand and shifting that to a
one-on-one conversation or thatsense of excitement around
talking to people, it's kind ofthe same thing.
(12:52):
Um, not just fewer people,right?
Um so shifting that um to aone-on-one interaction and using
that um, I think you know, thesuperpower of introversion, like
listening and mirroringsomebody.
Um I didn't know that was athing.
Um, I think I read it in itmight have been in quiet.
(13:13):
I don't know if you got thebook.
Um about what it means to be anintrovert and what it means to
have that as a superpower, butum to to interact with people
the way they're interacting withyou, so they feel more
comfortable like you'relistening to them.
And then absolutely blowingthat up on paper and and taking
what somebody might think as uhtheir story is very ordinary and
(13:37):
turning it into something somagical and so special and so
profound and so impactful, uh,helps them get out of that space
too and gets them away.
I don't know whether they'regonna be introverts or or not.
I'm most of the time my clientsare introverts just because I
think the people I attack, butgetting them away from being
shy, which is a totallydifferent thing, being
self-effacing, being the personwho wants to hide all the time
(13:58):
and saying, look what I did.
I turned this career of mineinto something people need.
And I'm using it, sort of usinga resume writer, using this
vehicle, this thing that I thatI do for them.
And as a job seeker, they I cansay, if I'm the job seeker, I
can say, yeah, I got some help,but look how good this looks.
(14:20):
Look how competent I look, andI feel so much more excited and
uh kind of in my center of powerto go and showcase all the
things that I know how to do.
So I hope I'm giving them theum, not just the the letter, but
the spirit, if you will, of umowning their story and helping
them get out of um wanting to beself-affacing and wanting to be
(14:45):
um quiet.
And I I can't change whetherthey're gonna be introverted or
shy.
Tim Newman (14:50):
Right.
Um and I don't want to becauseI that's that's that's just who
we are, right?
And that's just who we are.
Yeah.
Amy Adler (14:57):
So if I if I can, if I am comfortable with that and
say, I know who you are, Iunderstand where you're coming
from, but here is where you areso amazing at what you do.
Please use this language,please use these stories because
they tell something socompelling about you that people
just can't ignore.
I think that's that's how thatconverts.
(15:19):
Um and people feel, I hope,like they've learned something
about themselves, um, whetherit's literally the stories
they've already had stored intheir heads, or frankly, just a
way to tell those stories.
Tim Newman (15:30):
Yeah.
Do you have a story where youknow you you you take somebody
like you just described, andthey they've truly blossomed and
truly kind of grew into whothey are and shined as as the
introvert or the shy person andgoing on to truly embrace that
and be successful?
Amy Adler (15:51):
So well, I I can't say about the uh the one I'm
thinking of is such a new story.
It's probably in the last twoto three weeks.
So there there is no end to thestory yet.
We don't know how it's gonnaroll out.
Um but somebody who felt kindof beat down in their job, I'm
thinking of.
And they've been at theircompany for a couple decades,
(16:12):
like a while, had multipleroles, did some pretty
spectacular stuff, but felt kindof marginalized, I think is the
best way to put it.
And that they didn't recognizetheir own zone of genius.
And I think when they saw thereally the first draft of the
resume, there really weren't toomany revisions on it.
(16:33):
When they saw the first draftof the resume, um, I just got an
email, so I didn't I didn'ttalk to the person about it at
that time, but I got this sortof like wow message.
I I had no idea there was a wayto encapsulate all the things I
had done and make thisforward-looking rather than um
sort of saddened retrospective.
(16:53):
I don't know what what else tocall it.
Um, and and to kind of get theguy out of their funk, right?
Like out of their, out of thethe boundaries or the the lane
they had set for themselves tosay, well, this is all I can do,
this is all I I ever was, and Imust have hit my peak some time
ago.
I don't I really don't thinkthat's true.
Um, and helping them see theirmagic is is so great.
(17:18):
Um I will also tell a story.
This is way back in thebeginning of my resume writing
career, and I've been doing thisnow like 16, odd years.
Um, it was for an HR person,and she um I don't remember if
it was an email or a phone call,but I remember the language
because it was so striking andkind of humorous.
Um so she's an HR, so she doesall the functions of HR,
(17:41):
including hiring and all thatstuff.
She said, I don't know who thisgirl is, but I think I have to
hire her.
And I was like, wow, we we won.
That's awesome.
We absolutely won.
And it made me feel so goodthat you know, I changed her
perspective on herself.
Um and that's really what Ihope to do because there's so
much to going into the processwith confidence and and feeling
(18:01):
that special spark that I thinkis contagious.
Tim Newman (18:06):
It it it really is, and I I love that because you
know if if we think about thewhole job search process, we we
do try and and cramp everythingit is into, you know, depending
on your your career, whatever, aone to two page, this is what
I've done, this is who I am, andit's it's very bland, it's very
(18:30):
uh like you said, not forwardthinking.
And you look at it, you say,okay, I've accomplished this
stuff, but so what?
I mean, it's not it it doesn'treally empower us, but to be
able to to to do what you do forpeople to see who they are, to
feel good about those types ofthings, changes the mindset to
(18:52):
go in to even thinking aboutpreparing to go into an
interview.
It's not, well, I just I'vedone these things, uh, okay, it
doesn't really mean anything,but change that mindset to uh to
feel good about it and todevelop the stories to be able
to tell in that interview that'sgonna make these people shine.
Amy Adler (19:12):
It's so lovely when that happens.
Uh and I think people don'tdon't come into the resume
writing process with anythingmore, kind of as you said, uh,
with anything more than thenotion of, well, I need this
piece of paper because I have togo give it to somebody.
Um, and and the default mode isalways, let me just write down
what HR thinks my job is.
And that's absolutely like,well, okay, 99% of the time,
(19:35):
never the case.
Sometimes it is.
But um, I'd say in in the main,it's it's people taking what HR
has told them or what theirboss has told them they need to
be doing and finding a new wayto make them make themselves
successful in that position.
And then because they'vethey've owned what they are
doing, they can talk about theways they have done things that
(19:58):
no one else has ever donebefore.
And I think the biggest mistakein that sense that people make
is assuming that anyone in therole would have done it this
way.
And I've heard that more thanonce.
Uh that people are like, well,of course I would do this, you
know, I would have done this orwould have taken this particular
project on or done it this way,because that was what was what
(20:18):
the job was.
And I was like, no, that's whatyou did in the job.
The job is what HR said.
You know, you show up and youdo this thing and you're you
report to this person, you havethis team, or whatever it is.
You decided to make somethingnew out of it.
So let's talk about how you didthat.
Tim Newman (20:33):
Yeah, that that's a that's a truly, truly
interesting point.
Um Yeah, I I I've never thoughtabout it that way.
Um, I I I I think I may haveapproached it that way, but but
but to putting it like that,because we we all we all do
approach and think about thingsdifferently, but not necessarily
(20:54):
from the from the jobperspective or or the or the
task perspective even.
Um that that's a that's areally interesting point.
Amy Adler (21:02):
I appreciate you're saying so.
And I I think that's what thesame reaction that I get from my
clients is I just literallynever thought about it this way
before.
I literally never thought aboutit this way.
So I get the privilege then ofreflecting back to them exactly
what they're saying to me.
You know, I can't make anythingup, but I certainly don't want
to.
But to push a little harder andsay, so who else benefited from
(21:25):
this?
Tim Newman (21:25):
Right.
Amy Adler (21:26):
Who did you have to loop in to make this a viable,
you know, ongoing concern orwhatever the question might be?
Or something as simple as sothat automation that you built,
what did it replace?
And how you know, how long didit used to take?
And how long does it take now?
And they're like, oh yeah, youknow, it used to take a week and
you know, five people, and nowit takes two days and three
(21:47):
people, you know, something likethat.
And and people are, uh, myclients sometimes don't make
that connection.
Tim Newman (21:53):
Right.
Amy Adler (21:54):
And I love, I love connecting those dots for them.
Tim Newman (21:56):
And and and then to you, you know, you take that and
you build it build that intothe story during an interview,
and now you've shown real value.
Right.
Amy Adler (22:04):
Right.
And I think the the win thereis a the confidence that comes
with being able to tell thesestories in a competent way, sort
of beginning, middle, end,here's the win, but also to show
to your audience, the peoplewho are doing the hiring, that
you are intentionally de-riskingtheir hiring process.
You're saying, I have done whatyou need before.
(22:27):
So because I've done it before,I can show you how well it uh,
you know, how good it turnedout.
And I can promise you I'll dothe same kinds of things for you
in the future.
So the situation might not beidentical, but if there's a
process that needs to be fixed,well, I did this when it was
seven days and now it's two, orwhatever I said, um, and it was
five people and now it's, youknow, X people and so much time
(22:48):
has been saved.
You probably have a differentprocess, but I understand the
mechanism for making thathappen.
And you can absolutely count onme to do that into the future.
And they're like, oh, thisperson's already done this.
I don't have to explain thevalue of a lean operation or the
the way this works.
And I can just give them thecontext and the things, the
tools that we have, and let themgo and let them do the thing
(23:10):
that they're hired to do andthat they can do best.
And that's a very um compellingsense of confidence, I think,
and the on the part of thehiring team.
Tim Newman (23:18):
Yeah.
And and my guess is this allkind of leads back to the
overall strategy of um buildingthe content of of the resume.
I I I guess that's where whereyou really start, right?
Would that be a correctassumption?
Amy Adler (23:37):
So yes, but the the resume strategy has to has
really two pieces.
If you can think about theresume as being in the middle,
everything that came before istheir history.
Where they want to go is overhere.
So this document is supposed toconnect those two things.
So knowing all the things youhave done or or being able to
talk about them or or uncoverthem in the process, and knowing
(23:58):
exactly where you want to gomakes that resume a marketing
document, not just a laundrylist of stuff you've done.
And that is so much moreeffective.
Tim Newman (24:12):
100% agree, but how do we figure out how do you
figure out what the strategy isthough, right?
I mean, because I I'm justthinking about it, you know, for
to you know, take me for as afor example.
You know, I I've kind of got anidea of things I want to do.
I definitely know what I'vedone, but I'm not really sure on
(24:34):
how how I'm going to get to youknow point B based on things
that I've done.
How how do you help somebody tod define or develop that
strategy?
Because that that to me you'veyou've already opened your eyes
in their eyes in in in deter inin in how they view themselves
(24:59):
and the things that they'vedone.
Now, how do you get them to toto develop that strategy moving
forward, if if that makes sense?
Amy Adler (25:09):
It absolutely makes sense, and it's an extremely
important question, and I'm gladyou raised it.
So I say I'm an executiveresume writer or resume writer
and career coach.
Career coach is a prettyexpansive term.
Tim (25:24):
Right.
Amy Adler (25:25):
There are some people who are career coaches who
don't write resumes, and there'ssome people who are career
coaches because they have to bebecause they write resumes, and
I think I fall into thatcategory.
Um I frankly wouldn't be theright person for someone to say,
I have no idea what I want todo, not a clue, I haven't
thought about it, and I justknow it's nothing I've done
(25:45):
before.
That's too big of a questionfor somebody who is operating in
the space that I'm operatingin.
But if somebody says, I've doneall these things, I know I'm
good at it, uh, so here's mybody of work, so to speak.
And in the future, uh, I'd liketo work in this adjacency or in
the same kind of role but adifferent comp or a different uh
industry.
(26:06):
This is something I can workwith.
Or they might say, I'd like todo something in a different
industry and in a slightlydifferent role.
Is that possible?
And I'm always kind ofnavigating this with my clients
and saying, well, you can pullas many levers as you want, but
the more levers you pull onthis, the harder it's going to
be for your resume alone to makethis compelling argument.
(26:26):
We can do what we can, but wecan't change who you are and
what you've done.
We can only reframe it.
Tim (26:30):
Right.
Amy Adler (26:31):
So when they get to that point, I want them to share
with me job postings that theymight be interested in.
And this is just a series ofthought experiments.
It's free.
There's there's no cost todoing this other than time.
And I think it's such aworthwhile exercise because it
does a couple of things.
It enables people to followwhatever path they want to
(26:54):
follow, whatever thought processthey want to follow as many
times as they want to do it.
So they could say, well, I'mgonna look at um path A through
path, you know, Q, and thenstart narrowing stuff down.
That's just time to do that.
Uh and if they say, Well, Iwant to be a dentist, but
they've never gone to dentalschool or they didn't study
science.
Well, but then I have to say,okay, fine, you might want to do
(27:15):
this.
And maybe the first plan is toget you to dental school.
And if you want to do that,what do we need to do to make
sure you can do that?
That's literally never happenedbefore.
That's just a hyperbolicexample.
But um, I did have one youngguy call me at one point um who
was, I think, a year or two outof college, who insisted he
wanted to be um a CEO uh for500,000 a year.
I didn't know how he was gonnado that.
(27:37):
And I pretty much told him uh,like this this is a great
aspiration for you.
And it I'm sure it will happensomeday down the road.
It's just not gonna happen now.
It's not gonna happen today.
So, what can we do that's gonnaget you where you want to go?
That's the next stepping stone.
Um, but let's say we have areasonable solution set of job
postings, and you know, three orfour or five maybe.
(27:59):
The goal is to have them alllook the same, mostly the same,
because this tells us twothings.
One is that the job theperson's looking for, that kind
of a job exists.
So we're not making stuff uphere in this market.
I don't think we have theprivilege right now, anyway, of
making our own way into jobs.
Um, they usually have to be outthere and somebody has to be
hiring for them.
That could change.
(28:20):
It's it was different in thepast.
I just think the market now isa little bit tighter.
So um, so the job exists.
And the job exists insufficient quantity, like I
said, two, three, four, five,that it'll exist again.
So this resume is um somethingthat somebody can use into the
future.
So if they don't get aninterview for that very first
(28:41):
one, it's not like they're allhope is lost and they have to
start over.
They have this very umthoughtfully prepared, targeted
resume that they can use to lotsof jobs that are like this.
And and having people do thatresearch gives them a framework
to say, this is what I want,this is what I don't want, this
is what I never want to doagain.
(29:02):
And here's where I think itmatters, here's where I think I
can make a difference.
Um, and even if the job is umthe the job postings are are
scattered across the country, Idon't care about that.
Because I uh apart fromparticularly regionally specific
roles, the jobs will show upagain in some similar way
(29:22):
because HR broadly has alreadythought these things out and
we're just taking advantage ofthe fact that they've done all
this research already.
So they they now have a a goalthat's kind of written down, um,
more uh solidified than it wasbefore.
Because I want a new job ispretty scary, but I want this
(29:42):
job in this industry, that'spretty doable.
That feels much more manageableand it it intentionally sets
constraints on the process sopeople can do what what they
want to be doing, as opposed tobe uh you know, flailing,
guessing worrying.
Tim Newman (30:01):
Yeah, and I I guess it it also seems uh not not only
doable but but but the smallwind it seems like it's it's in
reach.
It's it's not uh like you said,it's not the five hundred
thousand dollar CEO role.
Um that okay, yeah, like yousaid it's aspirational.
Yeah, the the industry I comefrom I was in I was in the sport
industry and I had students whosaid they wanted to be the
(30:22):
general manager of you know youknow pick a team.
I said that's great.
I I you know let's let's figureout how we're gonna get you
there, but you know, there areonly 32 you know major league
baseball general managers.
You're th 32 possible.
You're not just gonna walk outof here and go into that role.
You know, there's there'sthings that you would need to be
(30:42):
do to to do.
And while that that goal is outthere, let's let's focus on
some attainable stepping stonesfirst.
You know, get that first hugehuge win, get that next win.
And you know, that's whatreally, you know, from my
perspective, that that'ssomething that really really
builds confidence and momentum,not only focusing on this and
(31:06):
failing, failing, failing,because two years down the road
you don't you haven't reachedthat yet.
Amy Adler (31:11):
Yeah, I think that's true.
I think being uh realistic butalso aspirational kind of sets
the the direction and the pace.
And just if something doesn'thappen today, it doesn't mean it
won't happen in the future.
Tim Newman (31:25):
Right.
Right.
You know, and you know, when wetalked before, you you you told
me a story about you know youryour client um who asked about a
resume and and uh he was goinginto prison.
To to me that that that'sthat's a really powerful story
because because they're they'realready thinking, okay, when I'm
(31:48):
done, things are gonna bedifferent.
Amy Adler (31:52):
I I genuinely hope that's what happened.
Um I kind of lost a follow-up,as they say.
Uh this person was genuinelyconcerned about what was going
to happen when when he got out.
Um and he knew he wasn't gonnahave access when he was inside,
right?
Um and he certainly had plentyof skills.
(32:13):
Uh this this was not a violentcriminal.
This was somebody who behavedbadly um and and got called on
the carpet for it.
Um but he he was seemed like anice guy.
He had um a lot to offer and hewanted to prepare himself.
I mean, I think that's anextreme, um, to be honest.
(32:35):
I haven't worked with maybemaybe more than two or three
people who were working againsta sort of systemic issue like
that.
Um most people show up and theyjust don't know how they're
going to make the um the nextstep.
I won't even call it a leap,but just the next step between
(32:55):
where they are to the thing thatthey maybe should be doing
next.
Maybe it's for better money,better work-life balance.
Maybe it's uh because they wanta new challenge, or maybe they
want to step back from achallenge.
I recently worked with somebodywho I thought I was surprised
because I guessed.
Oh, you must want to be doingthis in your next role.
He said, No, I'm at the end ofmy career.
(33:16):
I love what I'm doing.
I just want to keep doing itand know that I can contribute
and be okay being in in thisparticular situation, kind of
the number two guy in thedepartment, not the number one
guy, because I'm good at it andit's rewarding in its own way.
So people just have to knowwhat they want and how they're
gonna get to move forward.
Tim Newman (33:38):
Yeah, and I as I'm as I'm listening to you, I'm I'm
thinking my guess is mostpeople go through the through
this at some point in theirlife, right?
The the uneasiness, theunknowing, the the trepidation
of what am I gonna do, how am Igonna get there?
And it's they're they're notalone.
(34:00):
It's it's I I I think noknowing that you're not alone
and knowing that there arepeople out there that that can
help you and being willing to toreach out and and actually ask
for that help is uh is huge andimportant.
(34:21):
And I I I think that um ifpeople would understand that
reaching out and asking for helpis not a weakness, it's it's
really a strength, and that uhmost people, if you reach out
and ask for help, they're goingto help you.
Or they're going to direct youto somebody who can help you.
If if I can't help you, I'm notgonna say I can help you, but
(34:43):
that's not my that's not myarea.
But let me let me connect youto this person over here.
They could they could probablyhelp you.
And if they can't, they'llthey'll they'll direct you to
whoever.
But I think most people havebeen in this situation before.
If not, they will be.
Amy Adler (34:57):
I appreciate your saying this.
Um I I hope there's no stigmain asking for help for something
you do maybe twice in your lifeor three times in your life.
Um there's plenty of things Idon't know how to do, right?
I don't know how my my carfunctions under the hood.
Like I just don't.
Like, you know, I can I can Ican do a handful of things, I
(35:18):
can't do all of it.
Right.
Um and I don't feel like it's ashameful thing to ask.
Um, you know, I go to thedentist like everyone else does
because they know stuff, youknow, when um something happens,
you know, I go seek out aprofessional.
But I think people think aboutthis differently.
But if we turn it all aroundand say, and I work with senior
level players most of the time,not all the time, I've worked
(35:40):
with kids as young as highschool and they're awesome.
But if I'm looking at sort ofmanagement all the way through,
sort of the top echelons, theseare people who are accustomed to
hiring really smart teams,talented, capable people every
day for their companies.
And whether they hire oneperson or 50 people, they're
(36:01):
saying, I trust you, my teamdown, you know, yeah, where
you're sitting, I trust you todo this better than I could.
That's why I brought you on.
I thought I could do it betteror faster, I wouldn't hire you.
Tim (36:13):
Right.
Amy Adler (36:13):
But I'd like to see people translate that to hiring
experts in other realms.
I do this every single day,certainly more times in a week,
maybe, than some people do in alifetime.
So I'm here to offer thatexpertise and say, I've traveled
this road.
I'm pretty sure I know whatworks.
I want to get to know you so Ican take what I know, shape it
(36:37):
to what you need, and then youcan go be successful.
Tim (36:40):
Right.
Amy Adler (36:40):
And there shouldn't be, I don't think, that stigma
of I had to get somebody to helpme tell my story.
Because when was the last timeyou did it?
That was probably never.
Tim Newman (36:50):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So so now let's take this, takethis step forward.
So we have we have it, theresume, we have the written
document.
How do you how do you make surethat the written and the verbal
actually match the person?
Because to me, that is soincredibly important.
I've hired I've hired people, Ilooked at the resume, and then
I talked to them, I said, wait asecond, there's something's not
(37:13):
adding up here.
Amy Adler (37:16):
Okay.
Foundationally.
And I don't know if this isexactly what you're saying to
start, but it this has to bepart of the conversation.
Foundationally, theresponsibility for being
truthful is on the job seeker.
Tim (37:30):
Right.
Amy Adler (37:30):
I I can't tell if they're telling the truth.
I mean, I sometimes I canguess.
It's only happened maybe onceor twice, and I've been
suspicious.
Um if it's something I cancorroborate by just looking at
you know what's publiclyavailable in the news, I'm gonna
do that.
I want to make sure.
And then I'm gonna ask thosequestions.
Like, well, it looks like thecompany went bankrupt in 2012.
(37:52):
What happened after that?
Something like that.
You know, you didn't mentionit, but you were obviously in
doing A, B, and C during thattime.
What do we have to say?
And if they don't talk aboutit, maybe there's a reason.
And if it's just not relevant,maybe there's a reason.
Um, so that's the that'sfoundational to every project.
(38:12):
And like to the point whereit's like in my terms and
conditions, like you have totell me the truth.
And my obligation on the flipside is I'm not gonna make
anything up.
I'm I'm not gonna fabricate.
But let's say that's if that'sa given, that's already taken
care of.
So then if that's not themismatch that you're talking
about, I have written resumesfor people who for whom English
(38:34):
is not their first language, buttheir skills are phenomenal and
their expertise is really good.
I'm thinking of um, I want tosay he was uh an accountant or a
finance guy in a company.
I forget exactly what he did.
I think it was accounting.
Um, but he had grown up andgotten his education somewhere
else.
Didn't make his expertise anyless, right, you know, powerful.
(38:57):
But writing in English justwasn't a strength.
Um so he wasn't probably goingto sound in person the way his
resume sounded, but hisexpertise, it was so clear that
he could talk about every singlepoint.
Tim (39:10):
Right.
Amy Adler (39:11):
Uh, but there's other situations, and maybe this is
where you were going.
And I think that's a very, bythe way, a very legitimate way
to engage a resume writer, tosay, tell my story because I
need to talk to an audience andyou're gonna be better at this
in my language skills.
Um, you know, this is my secondor third language, you know,
this is your first.
Um but I think in the sensethat people use specific
(39:35):
language in their way ofspeaking and in their
industries, particularly, I haveto be able to take that and
say, this is what I think you'retrying to say here.
And please correct me if I'mwrong.
So writing a resume is notthis, it's not like you're
writing something in blood andit's immutable, or that I can't
(39:58):
take it.
I've been writing and editingfor over 30 years.
This is professionallyspeaking.
So if I can't take beingedited, I'm in the wrong
industry.
And I do believe in the powerof collaboration.
And if somebody says, we wouldnever use such and such phrase,
we only use the acronym.
I think I might stand my groundand say, let's spell it out
once and then use the acronymthroughout.
(40:18):
It makes more sense.
That's how people are going toknow it, whatever the thing is.
Or we never call it, uh, Idon't know, whatever it is.
We never call it this.
We we use this phrase becausethis is uh the way our industry
thinks about this.
Great.
Educate me, tell me how youwant this.
And hopefully by this point,I've I would have gotten the
message.
(40:39):
Um, but even if it's in thevery last round, I am all ears
and I want people to tell mewhat they think and to work with
me to make this thing, uh, thisdocument the best thing it can
be and the most compelling storyit can tell.
So there's there's no um fencesthat I'm putting up, or there's
no um sense of being insultedabout um how I'm conveying what
(41:05):
I'm I'm putting on paper.
I want people, like I, I it'sit's very hard to to put me
down.
Um and I think the only wayanybody could possibly, you
know, offer that kind of insultis to say, I don't like this,
but I don't know why, and you'renot fixing it.
And well, none of this isactually, well, people can say
they don't like it.
There's no part of me thatwouldn't jump right in, drop
(41:27):
everything, and fix something.
Usually it's something else.
It's not, I don't like this.
It's I don't understand.
Tim (41:34):
Right.
Amy Adler (41:34):
Or um, am I really that good?
I get that a lot.
Um, but it's never um, youknow, Amy made something up
about me and I don't understandwhy.
Um so I'm really here to toengage over and over again, loop
back until it's so buttoned upand so tight that it's it's a
(42:01):
powerful message and the personfeels very, very comfortable
sending it out to the world.
Tim Newman (42:06):
Yeah, and I I I just think that you know the
congruence is is so importantbecause again, you know, when we
when we hire people, at leastin in my in my view, we're we're
not hiring a resume, we're nothiring um, you know, we're we're
hire we're hiring a a personthat we're that we're bringing
into our team.
And like you said, that we'rehiring somebody because of who
(42:28):
they are and what the skillsthat they bring and the
knowledge that they bring in theand you know who they are to to
make our team, our organizationbetter.
Right.
Um and if if there's not thatcongruence, um they're not gonna
it it's it's just not gonnawork because we're gonna the
(42:50):
expectations won't won't alignum what one way or the other.
So I I just think it's so soimportant for for for for job
seekers to make sure that you'reas authentic as you possibly
can be in everything that comesout of you.
So that it's it's it's reallyobvious.
Amy Adler (43:11):
Um that enthusiasm comes through too.
Yeah, exactly.
All those things.
Tim Newman (43:16):
Exactly.
And and so that that kind ofleads me to to another point.
Um you know, I've spent almostuh my entire adult career, you
know, in um higher education.
What what is it that what is itthat that higher education and
career centers are I I thinkthey're missing the boat, but I
(43:40):
can't really I can't really putmy finger on it because I I
don't think we're preparing uhyou know students in c in in
higher ed to to truly be readywith to to career ready with
their with their um resumewriting, interview skills, that
type of thing.
What what can they be doingdifferently to better prepare us
(44:02):
our our students?
Amy Adler (44:06):
This is uh such a multifaceted question.
And and and and to be fair, mymy I mean I've seen what I've
seen.
Um haven't been in highereducation for low these many
years myself.
Um but having worked withstudents, I think the biggest um
(44:28):
change that if I if I, youknow, if I could wave a magic
wand and say all career centersshould offer this, I think to
get away from the notion thatall resumes, especially for
young kids, um in this context,all resumes have to be one page,
like with no context.
That's um fitting everybodyinto the same box.
(44:52):
And not everybody fits in thesame box.
And not everybody, even seniorlevel people, not everybody
needs a resume that is two pagesor sometimes three.
I once wrote a resume for a guy25 years in the same company.
It was a one-page resumebecause they had one job for 25
years.
It was totally fine.
But I've written resumes forfor future college kids, uh,
(45:12):
college kids, people get kidsgetting their first jobs.
And they've done so much,they're so engaged that their
resumes are two pages.
Tim (45:19):
Yeah.
Amy Adler (45:20):
And you know what?
That was two pages of concreteinformation, right?
Real stuff about these excitingor excited, you know, young
minds ready to do the nextthing.
And forcing them to one pagewould have been completely
unfair.
Tim Newman (45:37):
Right.
Amy Adler (45:38):
So let them tell their story.
Um, let them tell their storyin a way that a a more elevated
or or older professional mighttell the their story to you,
because that's where they'retrying to go.
And to say, with all of theirdocumentation, oh, all I've done
is go to college.
It's does them such adisservice.
Tim Newman (45:58):
It does.
It does.
Amy Adler (45:59):
Because they have volunteerism, they have work
study, they have summer jobs,they have internships, um, they
have volunteer stuff abroad,they they learn languages, um,
they program in the projects uhon the computer in their
classes, they they um develop uhconsulting projects, it all
(46:20):
kinds of things have happened.
Tim (46:21):
Yeah.
Amy Adler (46:22):
Um so why not let them tell us, me as a resume
writer, but I mean like us asadults, as as as you know,
professionals, let them tell uswhat they're good at and why we
should listen to them.
Tim Newman (46:37):
I'm so glad that you said that because I I I've been
saying for a few years that youknow the generation, the
younger generation, I don't evenknow what we're calling it
these days, but the youngergeneration is to me, they're so
much smarter and so much moreentrepreneurial than they've
ever been.
And they just don't know how toencapsulate that and
(46:59):
communicate it.
Um and like you said, trytrying to force when I'm trying
to get them to open up and shareabout who they are, trying to
force all that into one page, itit's count to me is
counterintuitive.
So I'm I'm so glad that yousaid that.
Amy Adler (47:16):
I think what I find frustrating, thank you.
First of all, thank you forsaying so.
What I find frustrating is thissort of um conventional wisdom
that nobody has time to read twopages.
And I don't think I hope that'snot true, because the people
who are reading the resumes areprobably owning two-page or
maybe three-page resumes.
Right.
So it's it's somewhathypocritical.
Um and and I don't even but Idon't even know if it's true.
(47:39):
I I um I think if the thestories in the resume, whatever
they are, are compelling and thepresentation is clean and easy
to read, and we're not going to,you know, nine-point type
because nobody needs to seethat.
Tim Newman (47:53):
Um I won't be able to read it.
I wouldn't be able to read it,honestly.
Amy Adler (47:58):
No, no, no.
But why not add, you know, buthow we say it, like add some air
to the document, like spacethings out, make it readable,
make the type a little bitbigger.
Give your meet your audiencewhere they are.
What do they need to know aboutyou?
And to constrain well, anybodyinto one page.
(48:19):
Um it's an interesting exercisein conciseness, but I don't
know if it's anything elsebesides that.
Tim Newman (48:28):
Yeah, I I I I I I agree.
And you know, it it it justleads me to to the next thought
in my in my head, you know.
You and I have spent our entireadult careers helping people.
That's what we do.
(48:48):
Right?
That's that's when when youbreak it down to the to the
bottom level, that's what we do.
We we we we help people, we wetry and add value to people.
What's the hardest part in yourmind of helping people?
Especially when it comes, youknow, to people being stubborn
or not being coachable.
What's uh what's the hardestwhat's the hardest part for you?
Amy Adler (49:11):
That people come sort of pre like primed with fear.
They are terrified, and rightlyso, especially in this economy.
People are getting laid offleft, right, and center.
They are often in unexpectedand painful ways.
Um they have families and rentand car payments and food bills,
(49:36):
electricity, like really thatfoundational.
Uh I don't know what the thegoing figure is.
You know, most people are liketwo or three paychecks away from
homelessness, right?
And people come inlegitimately, absolutely
terrified.
And that is the hardest part tobreak through because what
(49:58):
seems very normal to me, like Ido this every day, kind of like
when I was saying before, youknow, I do this every day, all
you know, multiple times a week.
This is my domain.
I feel very comfortable here.
Most people don't do this buttwo, three, four times in their
lives.
And they have no idea what theright thing to do is.
And there's so much in the wayof bad advice and scam artists
(50:22):
out there who haven't done thetraining and are just looking to
make a quick buck.
That's not what this is.
This is resume writing.
Uh, just for people who arelistening, resume writing is a
practice that is closely held bymany, many people who do the
training, who do the work, learnevery day to do right by their
(50:44):
clients.
And we're not here to takeadvantage of anybody.
So if we can get people tounderstand that we are on their
side, that we're here completelydevoted to them.
And if you trust that we willcare for you and your story and
tell it the way you deserve tohave it told, maybe that will
(51:05):
take some of that edge off.
Maybe that will help you um nothave such a stranglehold on it,
even though I know you're outthere terrified.
Tim (51:15):
Yeah.
Amy Adler (51:16):
And and understand our promise, my promise, that
whatever you need, I will helpyou.
And my phone is always on.
And I promise that to peoplebecause I never want them to
feel alone.
Because this is weird.
I mean, if I were dropped intheir job tomorrow with no con,
you know, context or experience,I'd be terrified too.
Tim (51:34):
Right.
Tim Newman (51:35):
Right.
Amy Adler (51:36):
But let me be let me be that support structure.
Tim Newman (51:39):
That that's that's so that's so powerful to under
understand.
Um, you know, especially whenum you're you're in a place of
vulnerability.
Yeah, you you may still be in aposition, but it's not a good
position, or you may not have aposition and you're really
vulnerable because, like yousaid, you could be a month away
(52:01):
from being homeless.
Uh-huh.
And and you it's the the thestress and the pressure is it's
incredible.
I mean, I've I've been there.
I I know what it's like.
And you know, you you want tomake sure that you're control
you think that you can controleverything to get you where you
need to be, but you need to letsome of that control go because
(52:21):
there are people out there whocan help you get to where you
want to be if you just allow itto happen.
Amy Adler (52:28):
And and people who are who don't believe they are
successful until you, the jobseeker, is successful.
So it might might be kind of aan unusual way of looking at the
logic.
But we're not just here to, youknow, churn out words and hope
they come out okay.
Tim (52:48):
Right.
Amy Adler (52:48):
We're here to help in in such a way that we intern, I
don't I don't know a singleresume writer who doesn't feel
this way, we internalize thesuccess of our clients.
Um and if if that's nothappening, we're gonna bend over
backwards.
Yeah.
Um, in a way that as much ashiring teams are full of amazing
people, because some of themare my clients, right?
(53:09):
I know that they've hiredplenty of people, and recruiters
also have an incredible skillset that I promise you I don't
claim to have.
Um everybody has differentobligations.
Tim (53:19):
Right.
Amy Adler (53:19):
Um, the hiring teams have obligations to their
groups, the or the companies,and the recruiters have
obligations to their contractualarrangements with the
companies.
My obligation is to my jobseeker, to my client.
I don't, I like to say, I don'tcare what job you want until
you tell me what you want.
And then I'm 110% in and I willfollow you to the ends of the
earth to help you get there.
(53:40):
Because my obligation is toyou, and I want you to be happy
and successful and fulfilled.
And when it goes absolutelybang on according to plan, it's
phenomenal.
Oh, you know, just this lastweek, um, I guess it was five
days ago, six days ago now,finish an update for a former
client.
(54:00):
Um, and she's like, I foundthis amazing job.
I have to apply for it.
Can we do this, you know,yesterday?
I was like, all right, youknow, let's let's rearrange my
schedule and see what I can do.
Um, she had the interview infour days, five days.
Tim Newman (54:13):
That's awesome.
Amy Adler (54:14):
Hasn't happened yet.
So I I don't know, I don't knowhow it went, but because it
it's not and won't be take placefor a couple more days.
But um, that is the the like acrystallization of how this is
supposed to go.
Will it happen every time?
No.
Have I seen it before thisweek?
Absolutely.
Um I think in the mean, peopleput the the work in, they
understand their brand, theyknow what they're standing for,
(54:36):
they apply for jobs that theythink they'd be amazing at, and
they go and they nail it.
Tim Newman (54:42):
Well, Amy, that that's all I think that's a
that's a perfect way to end it.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us.
Where can people connect withyou um to get their resumes and
and and written communicationsdone?
Amy Adler (54:55):
Thank you.
So I'm on LinkedIn all thetime, and my handle is Amy L.
Adler.
Um, also you can find mywebsite, which is
fivestrengths.com.
That's f-i-v-e s-t-r-en-g T H Sdot com.
And if you're interested in acomplimentary, completely
complimentary review of yourresume or your LinkedIn profile,
(55:16):
feel free to pick a time uh tochat with me at
fivestrengths.com slash let'schat.
Tim Newman (55:24):
Amy, thank you so much for joining us.
You you've provided uh so muchvaluable information and taught
me so much in this in this time,and I can't thank you enough
for that.
And so so uh take care andwe'll talk to you soon.
Amy Adler (55:36):
Thank you so much.
Tim Newman (55:39):
Be sure to visit speakwithconfidence podcast.com
to get your free ebook, the toptwenty-one challenges for public
speakers, and how to overcomethem.
You can also register for theForum for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice is apower changer.
We'll talk to you next time.
Take care.
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a
podcast that helps you build thesoft skills that lead to real
results.
Communication, storytelling,public speaking, and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turn
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on a
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
Today's guest is Amy Adler.
(00:30):
Amy is a nationally recognizedcareer and resume strategist who
has spent years helpingexecutives, professionals, and
even students tell their storieson paper in a way that gets
them noticed.
She's the founder of FiveStrengths Career Transition
Experts, a speaker at nationalconferences, and a coach who
knows how to translate a careerinto powerful language that
actually opens doors.
(00:52):
So if you've ever wondered howto make your resume or LinkedIn
profile reflect who you reallyare and how to make sure it
matches up with what you say inthe interview, this is the
episode for you.
Amy's here to show us howwritten communication can be
just as impactful as a spokenword.
Amy, it's so good to see you.
Welcome to the show.
Amy Adler (01:11):
Hello, thank you so much for having me today.
Tim Newman (01:15):
You've lived all over the place, and I I love
having people like you onbecause you know as we travel,
we we see things that people whowho stay in one location
necessarily don't.
So how has your your lifeexperiences and and travels
influenced the way that youcommunicate, whether it's in in
speaking or writing?
Amy Adler (01:36):
What an interesting question.
Um I I think part of it is uhintegrating when when you have
to integrate into a new place.
And as you say, I've lived kindof all over the place, all
across the country, from theEast Coast to the Inner Mountain
West.
And and the cultures are verydifferent.
So the New York Minute is areal thing.
And out in Salt Lake City,things are very slow and um in
(02:02):
in a pleasant way.
So adapting to the local color,I think, is is really
important.
Uh if we're seeking to interactwith people in a way that they
expect to be interacted with.
So I think in terms of writing,so that's that's speaking, but
in terms of writing, I think oneof the things that I have found
(02:24):
as a resume writer is that thefarther west I seem to go, the
less um the less willing peopleare to shine a light on
themselves and showcasethemselves and talk about
themselves.
Um, and the interesting thingis hiring teams don't care where
(02:44):
where you live in in thatsense.
They're not looking for uh youto to be very self-effacing in
your communication style whenyou're applying for a job.
So coaxing that out of peopleand helping them shine has been
really terrific.
Tim Newman (02:59):
Yeah, that that's a that's really interesting.
Um, because I I I've neverthought about that from a
writing perspective and and howread regions really approach it.
Uh, but I I I can see I cankind of see that, you know, in
my travels.
Now, I've never lived out west,but I've I've traveled
extensively out there and um asyou know, like like you say,
(03:22):
it's it's way more laid back,it's slower, but I never really
thought about that from from awriting perspective of how um,
and we'll talk about this herein a second, how maybe we we
become become more introvertedin our writing as opposed to our
speaking.
You know.
I remember when I moved from II did my doctorate down in
(03:43):
Mobile, Alabama, and when Ifirst got down there, I I it
took me a while to adjust.
Coming from the Northeast, youknow, we you know, we're moving,
we're popping, we're you know,we we we think fast, we talk
fast.
And you go down there, and Iremember telling my wife, I've
got to plan two hours to go tothe grocery store because people
will just stop and they'll talkto you.
You know, and that that thatwas was kind of a culture shock
(04:07):
uh for for me.
So so I kind of get it.
Amy Adler (04:10):
Yeah, I will tell you a story that my husband
reported to me when we wereliving in Minnesota.
We just moved there and uh heworked in a building with a
fairly tall, like a longelevator ride.
And he came home one day andsort of in in astonishment said,
I got into the elevator at worktoday, and somebody I'd never
seen before, had no interactionwith prior, looked at me,
(04:34):
grinned, and said, I quitsmoking 10 years ago today.
And he said, Congratulations,but he had no idea why this
person was revealing thisdetail.
And as we lived there longer,it became very clear that you
couldn't go to the grocery storefor less than two hours.
And you, you know, you weremeeting people that you knew in
this very small town.
Um, and people were very openand very willing to share um
(04:56):
kind of what what we thoughtwere extremely personal details
with complete strangers, but inthe most genuine, kind and
loving way.
Tim Newman (05:04):
Right.
And it's it's why why why do youthink it's not the same from a
from a writing perspective?
Because that to me that that'sjust to me, it would seem that
we would be more open with withwriting, because that's that's
to me, that's a a much morepersonal thing that maybe we
don't think people are are gonnasee or or or judge like like
(05:27):
speaking.
Amy Adler (05:29):
Yeah, you know what?
I really don't know.
Um, since I I launched myresume writing practice in Salt
Lake City, I I kind of only hadthat perspective, but I was very
surprised that in ourinteractions, in my in my
interactions with my clients, Iwas always the fast-talking one.
Tim (05:45):
Right.
Amy Adler (05:46):
And I had to learn to slow down and and frankly learn
to listen better, you know, usethose active listening skills
in a way that um I I didn't,it's not that I didn't use them,
it's just I didn't use them inthe same way.
And providing a real space,like a space with boundaries for
(06:07):
them to say what they wanted tosay without that New York
interruption all the time, youknow, sort of state of being.
Um, that I found very normal.
Uh I quickly learned was notvery normal.
So communicating with peoplethe way they expected really
helped a lot.
And slowing down to the pointwhere I felt I was crawling,
(06:29):
speaking the way I am right nowis incredibly slow to me.
But I think it helps theaudience or my audience
understand what I'm asking andconvinces them in some way that
I'm really listening.
Um, of course, I would belistening anyway, but showing
them.
Tim Newman (06:47):
Yeah, and that and I I also think that that that's a
that's a learned skill.
So, you know, slow in our ifwe're not slow in our thoughts,
at least we're we're slow in ourspeech.
You know, we're we're we'rewe're slowing down um how how we
come across.
And for you know, for me, eventhough I am from you know the
the the northeast, I've alwaysbeen kind of a slow slower
(07:08):
talker because I have to bebecause of how my brain works,
you know, the AD ADHD.
If I just spewed out everythingthat comes into my head, it w
it it it wouldn't be good.
You know, so so learning howhow to slow down and actually
communicate the things that youactually want to communicate,
and the whole idea that you thatyou brought up of you know the
platinum rule, uh meeting peoplewhere they want to be meeted,
(07:32):
uh meeting where they want to bemeet, meeting people where they
want to be met uh is is soimportant and communicating how
they want to be communicated tooreally does build a much deeper
connection with the audience.
Amy Adler (07:46):
And if my goal then is to help people find a way to
trust me, uh, which I know hasto be extremely difficult.
In many cases, we've never metface to face.
We don't know each other, wemight have a mutual connection.
But I have to convince themsomehow that I'm on their side,
that I'm listening, and that I'mgoing to do right by them in in
(08:06):
one of the most importantdecisions or or thought
processes of their lives.
Um, maybe third, let's put itthird after finding a life
partner and maybe having kids,getting a job is is going to be
the next big thing.
Yeah.
Tim (08:20):
Right.
Amy Adler (08:20):
So helping helping them feel as comfortable as
possible and giving them as muchof the floor as they want is
key.
And um sometimes communicatingfor me is saying nothing.
Just letting them, letting themtalk, um, giving them the
space, like I said, becausethat's what they really want.
They want to listen to somebodywho is empathetic, who's gonna
(08:44):
listen, who's gonna turn whatthey are saying into something
compelling for their futureaudiences.
Um I often joke in my firstsort of introductory call with
people, I talk a lot about howthis works and what I'm gonna do
and answer their questions, andthen almost uniformly, almost
uniformly tell them, this is themost I'm ever going to speak.
(09:08):
I want to ask you questions andI want this to be your space.
And I think people aresurprised by that because I
don't think many people have hadthe opportunity to be asked all
these questions and then givenas much unfettered room as they
want to say what they want tosay.
Tim Newman (09:25):
Yeah, but because I think you know, most of the
time, you know, when when we'rehaving conversations with
people, we're waiting for forour turn to talk.
We're not actually listeningand and trying to um understand
uh what the pe whoever it isthat we're communicating with,
what they're actually saying.
And you know, when you when youcome across somebody uh like
(09:46):
like you who, especially in inthe professional setting, you're
trying to help them.
If you don't listen, there's noway that you can help them.
If you don't let them say thethings that they need to say or
get across the things that theyneed to get across, there's
really no way that you can trulyhelp them, you know, meet the
goals that that they're thatthey're trying to meet.
Amy Adler (10:06):
And it also gives them a chance to maybe for the
first time ever talk about thesethings that are in their heads,
their experiences, their goals,their hopes for themselves, and
and launch that discussion sothat this is the first time
they're having this discussion,but certainly not the last.
Because I think the worst timeto start that conversation with
(10:28):
with yourself or to prepare whatyou want to say, the worst time
to start that is actually inthe interview.
Because that's the that's arecipe for panic.
And nobody wants that.
And I certainly don't want thatfor the the job seekers who are
engaging me to help them dobetter than than they could do
on their own.
Tim Newman (10:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, you you and meare are are very similar in in a
lot of things.
Um, you're an introvert and soam I.
And here's here's where I thinkwe differ a little bit.
Uh you love public speaking.
I I I like it.
I you know, it's a to me, Iwouldn't say it's a necessary
evil.
I I like it, but um you loveit.
(11:07):
And and how how is being anintrovert uh really influence
your your style of coaching andresume writing?
Because again, you know,transferring who we who we seem
to be outwardly, even as anintrovert, and transferring that
into the written form, it'sit's truly an art form.
Amy Adler (11:24):
So I think there's that's a whole bunch of
questions, I feel like.
Um sorry.
No, no, it's good.
Um, but I will tell you, sowhen I was a kid, getting up and
doing the book report in frontof the classroom or whatever it
was was torture.
I genuinely had, you know,shaking knees and quavering
voice.
I was terrible at presenting,and I'm sure I looked like I was
(11:48):
having a terrible time becauseI was.
Um, but something reallyexciting happened to me as I
became an adult, andparticularly in business school.
Um, so I was an introvert mywhole life, and that didn't
change.
And I definitely rechargeslowly um and expend energy
fast, right?
Um, but in in business school,we had to present so much that
(12:10):
it was almost a weekly thing.
And I just got used to it.
And all of a sudden I realizedit wasn't quite as scary as I
had thought it was in the past.
And I really, I was, I wasgenuinely terrified, whether
from a sense of um introversionor at that point shyness or just
the sense that I felt likeeveryone was judging me.
And I'm sure they weren'tbecause people are never as
interested in you as they are inthemselves.
(12:30):
I definitely know that now.
Um, but it became this I lovedhaving this sense of command
over the room and to share whatI knew and to feel like an
expert.
Um, so taking that expertiseand and shifting that to a
one-on-one conversation or thatsense of excitement around
talking to people, it's kind ofthe same thing.
(12:52):
Um, not just fewer people,right?
Um so shifting that um to aone-on-one interaction and using
that um, I think you know, thesuperpower of introversion, like
listening and mirroringsomebody.
Um I didn't know that was athing.
Um, I think I read it in itmight have been in quiet.
(13:13):
I don't know if you got thebook.
Um about what it means to be anintrovert and what it means to
have that as a superpower, butum to to interact with people
the way they're interacting withyou, so they feel more
comfortable like you'relistening to them.
And then absolutely blowingthat up on paper and and taking
what somebody might think as uhtheir story is very ordinary and
(13:37):
turning it into something somagical and so special and so
profound and so impactful, uh,helps them get out of that space
too and gets them away.
I don't know whether they'regonna be introverts or or not.
I'm most of the time my clientsare introverts just because I
think the people I attack, butgetting them away from being
shy, which is a totallydifferent thing, being
self-effacing, being the personwho wants to hide all the time
(13:58):
and saying, look what I did.
I turned this career of mineinto something people need.
And I'm using it, sort of usinga resume writer, using this
vehicle, this thing that I thatI do for them.
And as a job seeker, they I cansay, if I'm the job seeker, I
can say, yeah, I got some help,but look how good this looks.
(14:20):
Look how competent I look, andI feel so much more excited and
uh kind of in my center of powerto go and showcase all the
things that I know how to do.
So I hope I'm giving them theum, not just the the letter, but
the spirit, if you will, of umowning their story and helping
them get out of um wanting to beself-affacing and wanting to be
(14:45):
um quiet.
And I I can't change whetherthey're gonna be introverted or
shy.
Tim Newman (14:50):
Right.
Um and I don't want to becauseI that's that's that's just who
we are, right?
And that's just who we are.
Yeah.
Amy Adler (14:57):
So if I if I can, if I am comfortable with that and
say, I know who you are, Iunderstand where you're coming
from, but here is where you areso amazing at what you do.
Please use this language,please use these stories because
they tell something socompelling about you that people
just can't ignore.
I think that's that's how thatconverts.
(15:19):
Um and people feel, I hope,like they've learned something
about themselves, um, whetherit's literally the stories
they've already had stored intheir heads, or frankly, just a
way to tell those stories.
Tim Newman (15:30):
Yeah.
Do you have a story where youknow you you you take somebody
like you just described, andthey they've truly blossomed and
truly kind of grew into whothey are and shined as as the
introvert or the shy person andgoing on to truly embrace that
and be successful?
Amy Adler (15:51):
So well, I I can't say about the uh the one I'm
thinking of is such a new story.
It's probably in the last twoto three weeks.
So there there is no end to thestory yet.
We don't know how it's gonnaroll out.
Um but somebody who felt kindof beat down in their job, I'm
thinking of.
And they've been at theircompany for a couple decades,
(16:12):
like a while, had multipleroles, did some pretty
spectacular stuff, but felt kindof marginalized, I think is the
best way to put it.
And that they didn't recognizetheir own zone of genius.
And I think when they saw thereally the first draft of the
resume, there really weren't toomany revisions on it.
(16:33):
When they saw the first draftof the resume, um, I just got an
email, so I didn't I didn'ttalk to the person about it at
that time, but I got this sortof like wow message.
I I had no idea there was a wayto encapsulate all the things I
had done and make thisforward-looking rather than um
sort of saddened retrospective.
(16:53):
I don't know what what else tocall it.
Um, and and to kind of get theguy out of their funk, right?
Like out of their, out of thethe boundaries or the the lane
they had set for themselves tosay, well, this is all I can do,
this is all I I ever was, and Imust have hit my peak some time
ago.
I don't I really don't thinkthat's true.
Um, and helping them see theirmagic is is so great.
(17:18):
Um I will also tell a story.
This is way back in thebeginning of my resume writing
career, and I've been doing thisnow like 16, odd years.
Um, it was for an HR person,and she um I don't remember if
it was an email or a phone call,but I remember the language
because it was so striking andkind of humorous.
Um so she's an HR, so she doesall the functions of HR,
(17:41):
including hiring and all thatstuff.
She said, I don't know who thisgirl is, but I think I have to
hire her.
And I was like, wow, we we won.
That's awesome.
We absolutely won.
And it made me feel so goodthat you know, I changed her
perspective on herself.
Um and that's really what Ihope to do because there's so
much to going into the processwith confidence and and feeling
(18:01):
that special spark that I thinkis contagious.
Tim Newman (18:06):
It it it really is, and I I love that because you
know if if we think about thewhole job search process, we we
do try and and cramp everythingit is into, you know, depending
on your your career, whatever, aone to two page, this is what
I've done, this is who I am, andit's it's very bland, it's very
(18:30):
uh like you said, not forwardthinking.
And you look at it, you say,okay, I've accomplished this
stuff, but so what?
I mean, it's not it it doesn'treally empower us, but to be
able to to to do what you do forpeople to see who they are, to
feel good about those types ofthings, changes the mindset to
(18:52):
go in to even thinking aboutpreparing to go into an
interview.
It's not, well, I just I'vedone these things, uh, okay, it
doesn't really mean anything,but change that mindset to uh to
feel good about it and todevelop the stories to be able
to tell in that interview that'sgonna make these people shine.
Amy Adler (19:12):
It's so lovely when that happens.
Uh and I think people don'tdon't come into the resume
writing process with anythingmore, kind of as you said, uh,
with anything more than thenotion of, well, I need this
piece of paper because I have togo give it to somebody.
Um, and and the default mode isalways, let me just write down
what HR thinks my job is.
And that's absolutely like,well, okay, 99% of the time,
(19:35):
never the case.
Sometimes it is.
But um, I'd say in in the main,it's it's people taking what HR
has told them or what theirboss has told them they need to
be doing and finding a new wayto make them make themselves
successful in that position.
And then because they'vethey've owned what they are
doing, they can talk about theways they have done things that
(19:58):
no one else has ever donebefore.
And I think the biggest mistakein that sense that people make
is assuming that anyone in therole would have done it this
way.
And I've heard that more thanonce.
Uh that people are like, well,of course I would do this, you
know, I would have done this orwould have taken this particular
project on or done it this way,because that was what was what
(20:18):
the job was.
And I was like, no, that's whatyou did in the job.
The job is what HR said.
You know, you show up and youdo this thing and you're you
report to this person, you havethis team, or whatever it is.
You decided to make somethingnew out of it.
So let's talk about how you didthat.
Tim Newman (20:33):
Yeah, that that's a that's a truly, truly
interesting point.
Um Yeah, I I I've never thoughtabout it that way.
Um, I I I I think I may haveapproached it that way, but but
but to putting it like that,because we we all we all do
approach and think about thingsdifferently, but not necessarily
(20:54):
from the from the jobperspective or or the or the
task perspective even.
Um that that's a that's areally interesting point.
Amy Adler (21:02):
I appreciate you're saying so.
And I I think that's what thesame reaction that I get from my
clients is I just literallynever thought about it this way
before.
I literally never thought aboutit this way.
So I get the privilege then ofreflecting back to them exactly
what they're saying to me.
You know, I can't make anythingup, but I certainly don't want
to.
But to push a little harder andsay, so who else benefited from
(21:25):
this?
Tim Newman (21:25):
Right.
Amy Adler (21:26):
Who did you have to loop in to make this a viable,
you know, ongoing concern orwhatever the question might be?
Or something as simple as sothat automation that you built,
what did it replace?
And how you know, how long didit used to take?
And how long does it take now?
And they're like, oh yeah, youknow, it used to take a week and
you know, five people, and nowit takes two days and three
(21:47):
people, you know, something likethat.
And and people are, uh, myclients sometimes don't make
that connection.
Tim Newman (21:53):
Right.
Amy Adler (21:54):
And I love, I love connecting those dots for them.
Tim Newman (21:56):
And and and then to you, you know, you take that and
you build it build that intothe story during an interview,
and now you've shown real value.
Right.
Amy Adler (22:04):
Right.
And I think the the win thereis a the confidence that comes
with being able to tell thesestories in a competent way, sort
of beginning, middle, end,here's the win, but also to show
to your audience, the peoplewho are doing the hiring, that
you are intentionally de-riskingtheir hiring process.
You're saying, I have done whatyou need before.
(22:27):
So because I've done it before,I can show you how well it uh,
you know, how good it turnedout.
And I can promise you I'll dothe same kinds of things for you
in the future.
So the situation might not beidentical, but if there's a
process that needs to be fixed,well, I did this when it was
seven days and now it's two, orwhatever I said, um, and it was
five people and now it's, youknow, X people and so much time
(22:48):
has been saved.
You probably have a differentprocess, but I understand the
mechanism for making thathappen.
And you can absolutely count onme to do that into the future.
And they're like, oh, thisperson's already done this.
I don't have to explain thevalue of a lean operation or the
the way this works.
And I can just give them thecontext and the things, the
tools that we have, and let themgo and let them do the thing
(23:10):
that they're hired to do andthat they can do best.
And that's a very um compellingsense of confidence, I think,
and the on the part of thehiring team.
Tim Newman (23:18):
Yeah.
And and my guess is this allkind of leads back to the
overall strategy of um buildingthe content of of the resume.
I I I guess that's where whereyou really start, right?
Would that be a correctassumption?
Amy Adler (23:37):
So yes, but the the resume strategy has to has
really two pieces.
If you can think about theresume as being in the middle,
everything that came before istheir history.
Where they want to go is overhere.
So this document is supposed toconnect those two things.
So knowing all the things youhave done or or being able to
talk about them or or uncoverthem in the process, and knowing
(23:58):
exactly where you want to gomakes that resume a marketing
document, not just a laundrylist of stuff you've done.
And that is so much moreeffective.
Tim Newman (24:12):
100% agree, but how do we figure out how do you
figure out what the strategy isthough, right?
I mean, because I I'm justthinking about it, you know, for
to you know, take me for as afor example.
You know, I I've kind of got anidea of things I want to do.
I definitely know what I'vedone, but I'm not really sure on
(24:34):
how how I'm going to get to youknow point B based on things
that I've done.
How how do you help somebody tod define or develop that
strategy?
Because that that to me you'veyou've already opened your eyes
in their eyes in in in deter inin in how they view themselves
(24:59):
and the things that they'vedone.
Now, how do you get them to toto develop that strategy moving
forward, if if that makes sense?
Amy Adler (25:09):
It absolutely makes sense, and it's an extremely
important question, and I'm gladyou raised it.
So I say I'm an executiveresume writer or resume writer
and career coach.
Career coach is a prettyexpansive term.
Tim (25:24):
Right.
Amy Adler (25:25):
There are some people who are career coaches who
don't write resumes, and there'ssome people who are career
coaches because they have to bebecause they write resumes, and
I think I fall into thatcategory.
Um I frankly wouldn't be theright person for someone to say,
I have no idea what I want todo, not a clue, I haven't
thought about it, and I justknow it's nothing I've done
(25:45):
before.
That's too big of a questionfor somebody who is operating in
the space that I'm operatingin.
But if somebody says, I've doneall these things, I know I'm
good at it, uh, so here's mybody of work, so to speak.
And in the future, uh, I'd liketo work in this adjacency or in
the same kind of role but adifferent comp or a different uh
industry.
(26:06):
This is something I can workwith.
Or they might say, I'd like todo something in a different
industry and in a slightlydifferent role.
Is that possible?
And I'm always kind ofnavigating this with my clients
and saying, well, you can pullas many levers as you want, but
the more levers you pull onthis, the harder it's going to
be for your resume alone to makethis compelling argument.
(26:26):
We can do what we can, but wecan't change who you are and
what you've done.
We can only reframe it.
Tim (26:30):
Right.
Amy Adler (26:31):
So when they get to that point, I want them to share
with me job postings that theymight be interested in.
And this is just a series ofthought experiments.
It's free.
There's there's no cost todoing this other than time.
And I think it's such aworthwhile exercise because it
does a couple of things.
It enables people to followwhatever path they want to
(26:54):
follow, whatever thought processthey want to follow as many
times as they want to do it.
So they could say, well, I'mgonna look at um path A through
path, you know, Q, and thenstart narrowing stuff down.
That's just time to do that.
Uh and if they say, Well, Iwant to be a dentist, but
they've never gone to dentalschool or they didn't study
science.
Well, but then I have to say,okay, fine, you might want to do
(27:15):
this.
And maybe the first plan is toget you to dental school.
And if you want to do that,what do we need to do to make
sure you can do that?
That's literally never happenedbefore.
That's just a hyperbolicexample.
But um, I did have one youngguy call me at one point um who
was, I think, a year or two outof college, who insisted he
wanted to be um a CEO uh for500,000 a year.
I didn't know how he was gonnado that.
(27:37):
And I pretty much told him uh,like this this is a great
aspiration for you.
And it I'm sure it will happensomeday down the road.
It's just not gonna happen now.
It's not gonna happen today.
So, what can we do that's gonnaget you where you want to go?
That's the next stepping stone.
Um, but let's say we have areasonable solution set of job
postings, and you know, three orfour or five maybe.
(27:59):
The goal is to have them alllook the same, mostly the same,
because this tells us twothings.
One is that the job theperson's looking for, that kind
of a job exists.
So we're not making stuff uphere in this market.
I don't think we have theprivilege right now, anyway, of
making our own way into jobs.
Um, they usually have to be outthere and somebody has to be
hiring for them.
That could change.
(28:20):
It's it was different in thepast.
I just think the market now isa little bit tighter.
So um, so the job exists.
And the job exists insufficient quantity, like I
said, two, three, four, five,that it'll exist again.
So this resume is um somethingthat somebody can use into the
future.
So if they don't get aninterview for that very first
(28:41):
one, it's not like they're allhope is lost and they have to
start over.
They have this very umthoughtfully prepared, targeted
resume that they can use to lotsof jobs that are like this.
And and having people do thatresearch gives them a framework
to say, this is what I want,this is what I don't want, this
is what I never want to doagain.
(29:02):
And here's where I think itmatters, here's where I think I
can make a difference.
Um, and even if the job is umthe the job postings are are
scattered across the country, Idon't care about that.
Because I uh apart fromparticularly regionally specific
roles, the jobs will show upagain in some similar way
(29:22):
because HR broadly has alreadythought these things out and
we're just taking advantage ofthe fact that they've done all
this research already.
So they they now have a a goalthat's kind of written down, um,
more uh solidified than it wasbefore.
Because I want a new job ispretty scary, but I want this
(29:42):
job in this industry, that'spretty doable.
That feels much more manageableand it it intentionally sets
constraints on the process sopeople can do what what they
want to be doing, as opposed tobe uh you know, flailing,
guessing worrying.
Tim Newman (30:01):
Yeah, and I I guess it it also seems uh not not only
doable but but but the smallwind it seems like it's it's in
reach.
It's it's not uh like you said,it's not the five hundred
thousand dollar CEO role.
Um that okay, yeah, like yousaid it's aspirational.
Yeah, the the industry I comefrom I was in I was in the sport
industry and I had students whosaid they wanted to be the
(30:22):
general manager of you know youknow pick a team.
I said that's great.
I I you know let's let's figureout how we're gonna get you
there, but you know, there areonly 32 you know major league
baseball general managers.
You're th 32 possible.
You're not just gonna walk outof here and go into that role.
You know, there's there'sthings that you would need to be
(30:42):
do to to do.
And while that that goal is outthere, let's let's focus on
some attainable stepping stonesfirst.
You know, get that first hugehuge win, get that next win.
And you know, that's whatreally, you know, from my
perspective, that that'ssomething that really really
builds confidence and momentum,not only focusing on this and
(31:06):
failing, failing, failing,because two years down the road
you don't you haven't reachedthat yet.
Amy Adler (31:11):
Yeah, I think that's true.
I think being uh realistic butalso aspirational kind of sets
the the direction and the pace.
And just if something doesn'thappen today, it doesn't mean it
won't happen in the future.
Tim Newman (31:25):
Right.
Right.
You know, and you know, when wetalked before, you you you told
me a story about you know youryour client um who asked about a
resume and and uh he was goinginto prison.
To to me that that that'sthat's a really powerful story
because because they're they'realready thinking, okay, when I'm
(31:48):
done, things are gonna bedifferent.
Amy Adler (31:52):
I I genuinely hope that's what happened.
Um I kind of lost a follow-up,as they say.
Uh this person was genuinelyconcerned about what was going
to happen when when he got out.
Um and he knew he wasn't gonnahave access when he was inside,
right?
Um and he certainly had plentyof skills.
(32:13):
Uh this this was not a violentcriminal.
This was somebody who behavedbadly um and and got called on
the carpet for it.
Um but he he was seemed like anice guy.
He had um a lot to offer and hewanted to prepare himself.
I mean, I think that's anextreme, um, to be honest.
(32:35):
I haven't worked with maybemaybe more than two or three
people who were working againsta sort of systemic issue like
that.
Um most people show up and theyjust don't know how they're
going to make the um the nextstep.
I won't even call it a leap,but just the next step between
(32:55):
where they are to the thing thatthey maybe should be doing
next.
Maybe it's for better money,better work-life balance.
Maybe it's uh because they wanta new challenge, or maybe they
want to step back from achallenge.
I recently worked with somebodywho I thought I was surprised
because I guessed.
Oh, you must want to be doingthis in your next role.
He said, No, I'm at the end ofmy career.
(33:16):
I love what I'm doing.
I just want to keep doing itand know that I can contribute
and be okay being in in thisparticular situation, kind of
the number two guy in thedepartment, not the number one
guy, because I'm good at it andit's rewarding in its own way.
So people just have to knowwhat they want and how they're
gonna get to move forward.
Tim Newman (33:38):
Yeah, and I as I'm as I'm listening to you, I'm I'm
thinking my guess is mostpeople go through the through
this at some point in theirlife, right?
The the uneasiness, theunknowing, the the trepidation
of what am I gonna do, how am Igonna get there?
And it's they're they're notalone.
(34:00):
It's it's I I I think noknowing that you're not alone
and knowing that there arepeople out there that that can
help you and being willing to toreach out and and actually ask
for that help is uh is huge andimportant.
(34:21):
And I I I think that um ifpeople would understand that
reaching out and asking for helpis not a weakness, it's it's
really a strength, and that uhmost people, if you reach out
and ask for help, they're goingto help you.
Or they're going to direct youto somebody who can help you.
If if I can't help you, I'm notgonna say I can help you, but
(34:43):
that's not my that's not myarea.
But let me let me connect youto this person over here.
They could they could probablyhelp you.
And if they can't, they'llthey'll they'll direct you to
whoever.
But I think most people havebeen in this situation before.
If not, they will be.
Amy Adler (34:57):
I appreciate your saying this.
Um I I hope there's no stigmain asking for help for something
you do maybe twice in your lifeor three times in your life.
Um there's plenty of things Idon't know how to do, right?
I don't know how my my carfunctions under the hood.
Like I just don't.
Like, you know, I can I can Ican do a handful of things, I
(35:18):
can't do all of it.
Right.
Um and I don't feel like it's ashameful thing to ask.
Um, you know, I go to thedentist like everyone else does
because they know stuff, youknow, when um something happens,
you know, I go seek out aprofessional.
But I think people think aboutthis differently.
But if we turn it all aroundand say, and I work with senior
level players most of the time,not all the time, I've worked
(35:40):
with kids as young as highschool and they're awesome.
But if I'm looking at sort ofmanagement all the way through,
sort of the top echelons, theseare people who are accustomed to
hiring really smart teams,talented, capable people every
day for their companies.
And whether they hire oneperson or 50 people, they're
(36:01):
saying, I trust you, my teamdown, you know, yeah, where
you're sitting, I trust you todo this better than I could.
That's why I brought you on.
I thought I could do it betteror faster, I wouldn't hire you.
Tim (36:13):
Right.
Amy Adler (36:13):
But I'd like to see people translate that to hiring
experts in other realms.
I do this every single day,certainly more times in a week,
maybe, than some people do in alifetime.
So I'm here to offer thatexpertise and say, I've traveled
this road.
I'm pretty sure I know whatworks.
I want to get to know you so Ican take what I know, shape it
(36:37):
to what you need, and then youcan go be successful.
Tim (36:40):
Right.
Amy Adler (36:40):
And there shouldn't be, I don't think, that stigma
of I had to get somebody to helpme tell my story.
Because when was the last timeyou did it?
That was probably never.
Tim Newman (36:50):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So so now let's take this, takethis step forward.
So we have we have it, theresume, we have the written
document.
How do you how do you make surethat the written and the verbal
actually match the person?
Because to me, that is soincredibly important.
I've hired I've hired people, Ilooked at the resume, and then
I talked to them, I said, wait asecond, there's something's not
(37:13):
adding up here.
Amy Adler (37:16):
Okay.
Foundationally.
And I don't know if this isexactly what you're saying to
start, but it this has to bepart of the conversation.
Foundationally, theresponsibility for being
truthful is on the job seeker.
Tim (37:30):
Right.
Amy Adler (37:30):
I I can't tell if they're telling the truth.
I mean, I sometimes I canguess.
It's only happened maybe onceor twice, and I've been
suspicious.
Um if it's something I cancorroborate by just looking at
you know what's publiclyavailable in the news, I'm gonna
do that.
I want to make sure.
And then I'm gonna ask thosequestions.
Like, well, it looks like thecompany went bankrupt in 2012.
(37:52):
What happened after that?
Something like that.
You know, you didn't mentionit, but you were obviously in
doing A, B, and C during thattime.
What do we have to say?
And if they don't talk aboutit, maybe there's a reason.
And if it's just not relevant,maybe there's a reason.
Um, so that's the that'sfoundational to every project.
(38:12):
And like to the point whereit's like in my terms and
conditions, like you have totell me the truth.
And my obligation on the flipside is I'm not gonna make
anything up.
I'm I'm not gonna fabricate.
But let's say that's if that'sa given, that's already taken
care of.
So then if that's not themismatch that you're talking
about, I have written resumesfor people who for whom English
(38:34):
is not their first language, buttheir skills are phenomenal and
their expertise is really good.
I'm thinking of um, I want tosay he was uh an accountant or a
finance guy in a company.
I forget exactly what he did.
I think it was accounting.
Um, but he had grown up andgotten his education somewhere
else.
Didn't make his expertise anyless, right, you know, powerful.
(38:57):
But writing in English justwasn't a strength.
Um so he wasn't probably goingto sound in person the way his
resume sounded, but hisexpertise, it was so clear that
he could talk about every singlepoint.
Tim (39:10):
Right.
Amy Adler (39:11):
Uh, but there's other situations, and maybe this is
where you were going.
And I think that's a very, bythe way, a very legitimate way
to engage a resume writer, tosay, tell my story because I
need to talk to an audience andyou're gonna be better at this
in my language skills.
Um, you know, this is my secondor third language, you know,
this is your first.
Um but I think in the sensethat people use specific
(39:35):
language in their way ofspeaking and in their
industries, particularly, I haveto be able to take that and
say, this is what I think you'retrying to say here.
And please correct me if I'mwrong.
So writing a resume is notthis, it's not like you're
writing something in blood andit's immutable, or that I can't
(39:58):
take it.
I've been writing and editingfor over 30 years.
This is professionallyspeaking.
So if I can't take beingedited, I'm in the wrong
industry.
And I do believe in the powerof collaboration.
And if somebody says, we wouldnever use such and such phrase,
we only use the acronym.
I think I might stand my groundand say, let's spell it out
once and then use the acronymthroughout.
(40:18):
It makes more sense.
That's how people are going toknow it, whatever the thing is.
Or we never call it, uh, Idon't know, whatever it is.
We never call it this.
We we use this phrase becausethis is uh the way our industry
thinks about this.
Great.
Educate me, tell me how youwant this.
And hopefully by this point,I've I would have gotten the
message.
(40:39):
Um, but even if it's in thevery last round, I am all ears
and I want people to tell mewhat they think and to work with
me to make this thing, uh, thisdocument the best thing it can
be and the most compelling storyit can tell.
So there's there's no um fencesthat I'm putting up, or there's
no um sense of being insultedabout um how I'm conveying what
(41:05):
I'm I'm putting on paper.
I want people, like I, I it'sit's very hard to to put me
down.
Um and I think the only wayanybody could possibly, you
know, offer that kind of insultis to say, I don't like this,
but I don't know why, and you'renot fixing it.
And well, none of this isactually, well, people can say
they don't like it.
There's no part of me thatwouldn't jump right in, drop
(41:27):
everything, and fix something.
Usually it's something else.
It's not, I don't like this.
It's I don't understand.
Tim (41:34):
Right.
Amy Adler (41:34):
Or um, am I really that good?
I get that a lot.
Um, but it's never um, youknow, Amy made something up
about me and I don't understandwhy.
Um so I'm really here to toengage over and over again, loop
back until it's so buttoned upand so tight that it's it's a
(42:01):
powerful message and the personfeels very, very comfortable
sending it out to the world.
Tim Newman (42:06):
Yeah, and I I I just think that you know the
congruence is is so importantbecause again, you know, when we
when we hire people, at leastin in my in my view, we're we're
not hiring a resume, we're nothiring um, you know, we're we're
hire we're hiring a a personthat we're that we're bringing
into our team.
And like you said, that we'rehiring somebody because of who
(42:28):
they are and what the skillsthat they bring and the
knowledge that they bring in theand you know who they are to to
make our team, our organizationbetter.
Right.
Um and if if there's not thatcongruence, um they're not gonna
it it's it's just not gonnawork because we're gonna the
(42:50):
expectations won't won't alignum what one way or the other.
So I I just think it's so soimportant for for for for job
seekers to make sure that you'reas authentic as you possibly
can be in everything that comesout of you.
So that it's it's it's reallyobvious.
Amy Adler (43:11):
Um that enthusiasm comes through too.
Yeah, exactly.
All those things.
Tim Newman (43:16):
Exactly.
And and so that that kind ofleads me to to another point.
Um you know, I've spent almostuh my entire adult career, you
know, in um higher education.
What what is it that what is itthat that higher education and
career centers are I I thinkthey're missing the boat, but I
(43:40):
can't really I can't really putmy finger on it because I I
don't think we're preparing uhyou know students in c in in
higher ed to to truly be readywith to to career ready with
their with their um resumewriting, interview skills, that
type of thing.
What what can they be doingdifferently to better prepare us
(44:02):
our our students?
Amy Adler (44:06):
This is uh such a multifaceted question.
And and and and to be fair, mymy I mean I've seen what I've
seen.
Um haven't been in highereducation for low these many
years myself.
Um but having worked withstudents, I think the biggest um
(44:28):
change that if I if I, youknow, if I could wave a magic
wand and say all career centersshould offer this, I think to
get away from the notion thatall resumes, especially for
young kids, um in this context,all resumes have to be one page,
like with no context.
That's um fitting everybodyinto the same box.
(44:52):
And not everybody fits in thesame box.
And not everybody, even seniorlevel people, not everybody
needs a resume that is two pagesor sometimes three.
I once wrote a resume for a guy25 years in the same company.
It was a one-page resumebecause they had one job for 25
years.
It was totally fine.
But I've written resumes forfor future college kids, uh,
(45:12):
college kids, people get kidsgetting their first jobs.
And they've done so much,they're so engaged that their
resumes are two pages.
Tim (45:19):
Yeah.
Amy Adler (45:20):
And you know what?
That was two pages of concreteinformation, right?
Real stuff about these excitingor excited, you know, young
minds ready to do the nextthing.
And forcing them to one pagewould have been completely
unfair.
Tim Newman (45:37):
Right.
Amy Adler (45:38):
So let them tell their story.
Um, let them tell their storyin a way that a a more elevated
or or older professional mighttell the their story to you,
because that's where they'retrying to go.
And to say, with all of theirdocumentation, oh, all I've done
is go to college.
It's does them such adisservice.
Tim Newman (45:58):
It does.
It does.
Amy Adler (45:59):
Because they have volunteerism, they have work
study, they have summer jobs,they have internships, um, they
have volunteer stuff abroad,they they learn languages, um,
they program in the projects uhon the computer in their
classes, they they um develop uhconsulting projects, it all
(46:20):
kinds of things have happened.
Tim (46:21):
Yeah.
Amy Adler (46:22):
Um so why not let them tell us, me as a resume
writer, but I mean like us asadults, as as as you know,
professionals, let them tell uswhat they're good at and why we
should listen to them.
Tim Newman (46:37):
I'm so glad that you said that because I I I've been
saying for a few years that youknow the generation, the
younger generation, I don't evenknow what we're calling it
these days, but the youngergeneration is to me, they're so
much smarter and so much moreentrepreneurial than they've
ever been.
And they just don't know how toencapsulate that and
(46:59):
communicate it.
Um and like you said, trytrying to force when I'm trying
to get them to open up and shareabout who they are, trying to
force all that into one page, itit's count to me is
counterintuitive.
So I'm I'm so glad that yousaid that.
Amy Adler (47:16):
I think what I find frustrating, thank you.
First of all, thank you forsaying so.
What I find frustrating is thissort of um conventional wisdom
that nobody has time to read twopages.
And I don't think I hope that'snot true, because the people
who are reading the resumes areprobably owning two-page or
maybe three-page resumes.
Right.
So it's it's somewhathypocritical.
Um and and I don't even but Idon't even know if it's true.
(47:39):
I I um I think if the thestories in the resume, whatever
they are, are compelling and thepresentation is clean and easy
to read, and we're not going to,you know, nine-point type
because nobody needs to seethat.
Tim Newman (47:53):
Um I won't be able to read it.
I wouldn't be able to read it,honestly.
Amy Adler (47:58):
No, no, no.
But why not add, you know, buthow we say it, like add some air
to the document, like spacethings out, make it readable,
make the type a little bitbigger.
Give your meet your audiencewhere they are.
What do they need to know aboutyou?
And to constrain well, anybodyinto one page.
(48:19):
Um it's an interesting exercisein conciseness, but I don't
know if it's anything elsebesides that.
Tim Newman (48:28):
Yeah, I I I I I I agree.
And you know, it it it justleads me to to the next thought
in my in my head, you know.
You and I have spent our entireadult careers helping people.
That's what we do.
(48:48):
Right?
That's that's when when youbreak it down to the to the
bottom level, that's what we do.
We we we we help people, we wetry and add value to people.
What's the hardest part in yourmind of helping people?
Especially when it comes, youknow, to people being stubborn
or not being coachable.
What's uh what's the hardestwhat's the hardest part for you?
Amy Adler (49:11):
That people come sort of pre like primed with fear.
They are terrified, and rightlyso, especially in this economy.
People are getting laid offleft, right, and center.
They are often in unexpectedand painful ways.
Um they have families and rentand car payments and food bills,
(49:36):
electricity, like really thatfoundational.
Uh I don't know what the thegoing figure is.
You know, most people are liketwo or three paychecks away from
homelessness, right?
And people come inlegitimately, absolutely
terrified.
And that is the hardest part tobreak through because what
(49:58):
seems very normal to me, like Ido this every day, kind of like
when I was saying before, youknow, I do this every day, all
you know, multiple times a week.
This is my domain.
I feel very comfortable here.
Most people don't do this buttwo, three, four times in their
lives.
And they have no idea what theright thing to do is.
And there's so much in the wayof bad advice and scam artists
(50:22):
out there who haven't done thetraining and are just looking to
make a quick buck.
That's not what this is.
This is resume writing.
Uh, just for people who arelistening, resume writing is a
practice that is closely held bymany, many people who do the
training, who do the work, learnevery day to do right by their
(50:44):
clients.
And we're not here to takeadvantage of anybody.
So if we can get people tounderstand that we are on their
side, that we're here completelydevoted to them.
And if you trust that we willcare for you and your story and
tell it the way you deserve tohave it told, maybe that will
(51:05):
take some of that edge off.
Maybe that will help you um nothave such a stranglehold on it,
even though I know you're outthere terrified.
Tim (51:15):
Yeah.
Amy Adler (51:16):
And and understand our promise, my promise, that
whatever you need, I will helpyou.
And my phone is always on.
And I promise that to peoplebecause I never want them to
feel alone.
Because this is weird.
I mean, if I were dropped intheir job tomorrow with no con,
you know, context or experience,I'd be terrified too.
Tim (51:34):
Right.
Tim Newman (51:35):
Right.
Amy Adler (51:36):
But let me be let me be that support structure.
Tim Newman (51:39):
That that's that's so that's so powerful to under
understand.
Um, you know, especially whenum you're you're in a place of
vulnerability.
Yeah, you you may still be in aposition, but it's not a good
position, or you may not have aposition and you're really
vulnerable because, like yousaid, you could be a month away
(52:01):
from being homeless.
Uh-huh.
And and you it's the the thestress and the pressure is it's
incredible.
I mean, I've I've been there.
I I know what it's like.
And you know, you you want tomake sure that you're control
you think that you can controleverything to get you where you
need to be, but you need to letsome of that control go because
(52:21):
there are people out there whocan help you get to where you
want to be if you just allow itto happen.
Amy Adler (52:28):
And and people who are who don't believe they are
successful until you, the jobseeker, is successful.
So it might might be kind of aan unusual way of looking at the
logic.
But we're not just here to, youknow, churn out words and hope
they come out okay.
Tim (52:48):
Right.
Amy Adler (52:48):
We're here to help in in such a way that we intern, I
don't I don't know a singleresume writer who doesn't feel
this way, we internalize thesuccess of our clients.
Um and if if that's nothappening, we're gonna bend over
backwards.
Yeah.
Um, in a way that as much ashiring teams are full of amazing
people, because some of themare my clients, right?
(53:09):
I know that they've hiredplenty of people, and recruiters
also have an incredible skillset that I promise you I don't
claim to have.
Um everybody has differentobligations.
Tim (53:19):
Right.
Amy Adler (53:19):
Um, the hiring teams have obligations to their
groups, the or the companies,and the recruiters have
obligations to their contractualarrangements with the
companies.
My obligation is to my jobseeker, to my client.
I don't, I like to say, I don'tcare what job you want until
you tell me what you want.
And then I'm 110% in and I willfollow you to the ends of the
earth to help you get there.
(53:40):
Because my obligation is toyou, and I want you to be happy
and successful and fulfilled.
And when it goes absolutelybang on according to plan, it's
phenomenal.
Oh, you know, just this lastweek, um, I guess it was five
days ago, six days ago now,finish an update for a former
client.
(54:00):
Um, and she's like, I foundthis amazing job.
I have to apply for it.
Can we do this, you know,yesterday?
I was like, all right, youknow, let's let's rearrange my
schedule and see what I can do.
Um, she had the interview infour days, five days.
Tim Newman (54:13):
That's awesome.
Amy Adler (54:14):
Hasn't happened yet.
So I I don't know, I don't knowhow it went, but because it
it's not and won't be take placefor a couple more days.
But um, that is the the like acrystallization of how this is
supposed to go.
Will it happen every time?
No.
Have I seen it before thisweek?
Absolutely.
Um I think in the mean, peopleput the the work in, they
understand their brand, theyknow what they're standing for,
(54:36):
they apply for jobs that theythink they'd be amazing at, and
they go and they nail it.
Tim Newman (54:42):
Well, Amy, that that's all I think that's a
that's a perfect way to end it.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us.
Where can people connect withyou um to get their resumes and
and and written communicationsdone?
Amy Adler (54:55):
Thank you.
So I'm on LinkedIn all thetime, and my handle is Amy L.
Adler.
Um, also you can find mywebsite, which is
fivestrengths.com.
That's f-i-v-e s-t-r-en-g T H Sdot com.
And if you're interested in acomplimentary, completely
complimentary review of yourresume or your LinkedIn profile,
(55:16):
feel free to pick a time uh tochat with me at
fivestrengths.com slash let'schat.
Tim Newman (55:24):
Amy, thank you so much for joining us.
You you've provided uh so muchvaluable information and taught
me so much in this in this time,and I can't thank you enough
for that.
And so so uh take care andwe'll talk to you soon.
Amy Adler (55:36):
Thank you so much.
Tim Newman (55:39):
Be sure to visit speakwithconfidence podcast.com
to get your free ebook, the toptwenty-one challenges for public
speakers, and how to overcomethem.
You can also register for theForum for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice is apower changer.
We'll talk to you next time.
Take care.
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