July 28, 2025 • 49 mins
What if charisma isn’t about being magnetic... but about being real?
In this episode of Speaking With Confidence, I sit down with therapist, coach, and leadership expert Richard Reid to explore what truly makes someone a powerful communicator. Spoiler alert: it’s not about being the most dynamic speaker or the loudest voice in the room.
Richard unpacks the difference between charm and charisma and why one builds trust while the other often erodes it. We talk about how presence, authenticity, and curiosity form the foundation of effective communication skills, especially in today’s tech-saturated world.
We also dig into leadership communication, the power of storytelling techniques, and how younger professionals can build public speaking confidence without pretending to be someone they’re not. If you’ve ever wrestled with imposter syndrome, felt drained by Zoom meetings, or thought “I just don’t have that ‘it’ factor,” this one’s for you.
Here’s what we cover:
- Why authentic charisma beats performative charm every time
- The impact of technology on our presence and emotional regulation
- The leadership advantage of storytelling and vulnerability
- How to build connection by listening for emotions, not just facts
- Why confidence in public speaking starts with owning your story
- And Richard’s refreshingly practical advice for anyone looking to grow
Connect with Richard:
http://linkedin/in/richard-reid
Ready to unlock your own charisma and become the communicator people remember? Visit timnewmanspeaks.com to grab your free e-book Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them and start transforming your communication today.
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
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Episode Transcript
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Tim (00:08):
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that
helps you build the soft skillsthat lead to real results
Communication, storytelling,public speaking and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor and
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
(00:29):
It truly means the world to me.
If you have questions or if youwant something covered on the
podcast, send me a message.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free e-book.
Top 21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is Richard Reed.
Richard is a seasoned therapist, coach and organization
(00:51):
well-being expert with over 20years of experience.
He helps individuals andorganizations unlock their full
potential and thrive.
From trauma recovery toexecutive coaching.
He brings a pragmatic andapproachable style to every
endeavor.
He's also the author of theAmazon bestseller Charisma
Unlocked Richard, welcome to theshow.
Richard (01:11):
Hi there, Tim.
Thanks for having me.
Really good to be here.
Tim (01:15):
I'm glad you could make it.
I'm really looking forward totalking with you today.
There's so much I want to talkabout.
I read your book and it makesso much sense.
But I have so many questionsbecause I never really thought
about charisma in the way thatyou present it.
But you know the way youpresent it and the ideas.
(01:36):
I was like, wow, I can'tbelieve that I'm just thinking
of it this way, this way.
Was there something that kindof led you down this road to get
into Charisma from a leadershipperspective and a research
perspective like this?
Richard (01:53):
Yeah.
So it all started from workingas a therapist.
In the area of London that Iwas working.
At the time, there were lots ofquite affluent people, people
who were in their own businesses, entrepreneurs, and a lot of
the issues they were coming withwere around things like
confidence, around connectingwith others, influencing others,
and I thought how can I packagethis in a way that I can take
(02:15):
to organizations?
Because I think even in thisday and age, from my view, there
are lots of people who canbenefit from therapy, but lots
of people attach a stigma to theidea of therapy, whereas if you
present it in terms of coachingskills and business skills,
people buy into it far more.
But essentially you're offeringthe same same service under
(02:37):
under a different, under adifferent name.
So I really thought how could Ipackage all of these things
together?
And the idea of charisma seemedto really, really work because
at the very least, it creates aconversation.
You know, even if I'm talkingto mates at a barbecue, you
mentioned the word charisma,everybody's got something to say
and it generates a conversation.
Tim (03:00):
It really does.
And it's funny you said thatyou know, in terms of of therapy
, I've got an office mate who isa therapist and and a coach and
she said something to be almostthe exact same word for word
about two weeks ago and whatshe's doing is kind of giving up
her her therapy practice andmoving on to coaching, because
(03:22):
it seems to have a better umconnotation to it and doing some
of those same things and and itjust, it just makes a whole lot
of sense.
It gets rid of the negativeconnotation and I don't know if
you notice I I kind of chuckledwhen you said but a lot of
people could benefit fromtherapy.
Richard (03:36):
I I agree with you yeah , yeah, yeah, definitely believe
that I do, yeah so, uh, but Ithink a lot with with charisma.
Tim (03:47):
You know, when you and I talked a little bit about this
when we did the pre-show, the,the difference between charisma
and and charm, um, it's reallyabout manipulation.
Is that, is that?
Is that?
Is that a fair assessment?
Richard (04:01):
for me, the the one of the risks with charm is that
it's it's about manipulation.
But but for me also, umconjures up ideas of, of
superficial, superficial, uh,connection skills and actually
what we're talking about withcharisma at least the kind of
charisma that I teach and coachto people it's about um being
authentic.
It's about being who you reallyare, being comfortable with
(04:23):
that and using it in a flexibleway that also brings out the
best in other people.
So it's the true you connectingwith the true version of other
people, and what you're tryingto do with it is to create what
we call a virtuous circle.
So it's not just about how canI say whatever I need to say
here to get what I need fromthis situation.
It's how can I try and createwin-win situations that actually
(04:44):
make other people come awayfeeling good about themselves
too?
Tim (04:47):
right, right and and building that, building building
relationships and buildingconnections, um, really does it.
To me it's a domino effect,right, because you don't really
have um, yeah, can't have trustunless you have, you know, good,
good relationships.
You can't have goodrelationships unless you, uh,
(05:08):
have good communication skills.
So so to me it's all kind ofyou have to have everything
along the way to to be able toget to where you want to get to
absolutely so.
Richard (05:19):
So, quite, quite right, as you say, for me it's about
creating safety in relationships, safety where I can trust you.
I can trust you with a job, aproject, my money, or I can
trust you, um, to share thingswith you that I might not share
with other people about myself,and I think you know, one of the
big things I I've learned from,from working in the therapy
(05:40):
world, is that a lot of theproblems that we have come from,
uh, the idea that actually wehide parts of ourselves away,
parts of ourselves we don'tthink are acceptable, parts of
ourselves that don't fit witheverybody else and what we
perceive to be society'sexpectations, and obviously
we've all got to adapt slightlyaccording to the environment
that we're in.
But actually when we developthe confidence to show those
(06:02):
other parts of ourselves, that'show we celebrate our uniqueness
, that's how we make ourselvesmore memorable, um, and, and
part of charisma is about usshowing that to the world, but
also helping other people tobring that out of themselves as
well yeah, and you know, I thinkabout it.
Tim (06:17):
I had a conversation earlier today, uh, about the
differences in in generationsyou know, and our generations
there was.
There was no individuality.
That was something that wasreally frowned upon and if you,
if you, tried to beindividualistic, you were really
kind of, you know, smack down.
(06:38):
So and now we're we're in atime in society where we're
encouraging the individual to beindividualistic.
We're encouraging theindividual to be authentic and
be who they are and notnecessarily conform to what
society or family or whatever itis what they expect of us.
Richard (07:03):
It's a dangerous balance.
What they expect of us, it's adangerous balance and I think
you know I'm a big student ofhistory and you see this in
various points in history thatthe pendulum switches, doesn't
it?
And sometimes in quite extremeways, and then a lot of the time
we then recalibrate, and Ithink we're going through one of
those sort of recalibrationphases as a society at the
moment.
But I think for me, I'm all forindividuality, but I I think
(07:27):
we've also look at um rightsversus responsibilities, that
actually, if we want the benefitof structures, organizations,
what structure society has tooffer, we also need to, we also
need to adapt to that to somedegree and and hopefully we can
find a balance where we canstill be an individual but we're
also contributing.
And I think the risk is at themoment we've got lots of people
(07:49):
demanding their rights, my rightto be who I am, but actually
what?
What are you giving back inreturn for that?
right yeah, and that's that's.
Tim (07:57):
That's the the tension for me at the moment and, and I
think that's a tension for a lotof people, I think, you know, I
think people from ourgeneration feel it and worry
about it and struggle with it,and just, I think the people
with the younger generations aretoo.
And you know, I think I don'tknow that there's a good
(08:20):
standard answer, but I do thinkthat, you know, both sides have
to have to be willing to meeteach other somewhere in the
middle.
Right, I do.
I think it's our responsibilityfrom our generation to reach
out and try and and make thoseconnections and and try and
understand and bring them along,just because that's again that
comes from our generation.
Right, it's?
You know, we're the, we're the,we're the ones we're not, we're
(08:41):
now the leaders, we're now thementors, the patriarchs, the
matriarchs, what have you?
And it's our job to mentor andso forth.
But I also think that theyounger generations have to be
willing and open to coming alongfor that ride and being open to
having the conversations.
Richard (08:58):
So I think it goes both ways, Absolutely, and I think
you know.
Going back to what we weresaying before about this idea of
safety, psychological safetypart of it is showing curiosity
for other people's positions,isn't it?
Even if we don't necessarilyimmediately understand them or
agree with them.
Showing curiosity, affordingrespect, makes people more open
to considering alternativeviewpoints, and I think that's
(09:18):
what needs to happen here.
And I think, as the oldergenerations, inevitably we hold
more power and influence insociety, so actually it's almost
more incumbent on us toinitiate those conversations.
Tim (09:35):
And being willing to not have the hardline stance, which,
again, I'm sure you're the sameway.
There's some things that I'mwilling to, to be really
flexible on, but there's otherthings I'm like I don't know
that I want to be flexible atall, but at least I'm open to
having the conversation and andand listening and going from
(09:56):
there and I think that's, youknow, from a broader societal
perspective.
I'm not sure that there's manypeople that are, that are in
that camp.
Richard (10:06):
No perspective.
I I'm not sure that there'smany people that are, that are
in that camp.
No, I think that's true and youknow, I see it sort of in in
terms of society.
I see in in organizations aswell that that often we're quite
transactional in terms of howwe deal with people.
So we, you know, we makeassumptions about their
viewpoint, or even if we knowwhat their viewpoint is, we
don't take the time tounderstand the emotions that sit
beneath that.
And I think you know, even iffundamentally we disagree with
somebody's position, if we'rehaving a, a conversation of
(10:28):
respect and curiosity, then thenhopefully we can share why it
is that we need to draw a lineon something and people can, can
negotiate with us how we, howwe navigate that and I think
that goes back to something thatwe talked about in in the in
the pre-show interview.
Tim (10:43):
You know, listening and and listening, with the idea of um
being being empathetic andlistening to understand as
opposed to listening to, toresponding, and and those types
of things yeah, and I thinkthat's that's often the.
Richard (11:04):
The challenge, isn't it , that we we don't think about
the intention we want to createin the conversation.
We go with what our impulsetells us and actually, if we go
into these types ofconversations the intention that
we want to understand and wewant to collaborate and create
something between us, then moreoften than not our behaviors
align with that, whereas we goin there with no idea of what we
(11:24):
want to do or we go in therewith the idea that we simply
want to undermine somebody'sposition, then the barriers go
up, yeah.
Tim (11:34):
And the whole idea of knowing when to speak and what
to say when to speak, and Ithink that's a –'s a.
Richard (11:44):
I think a lot most of communication is a learned skill
, but I think that piece rightthere is is takes a lot longer
to learn and we I think we learnmore from trial and error than
we do anything else sometimesyeah, yeah, I think I think
that's so true and some, somepeople never get there, but I
think, um, for me, a big part ofit is about how you manage your
(12:07):
internal world, and if you aredriven by your emotions and
you're driven by your impulses,then actually, as soon as you
hear anything that you don'tlike, you're going to intercede,
you're going to cut somebodyelse off, you're going to cause
offense or cause barriers to goup.
So learning to be moreemotionally intelligent,
understanding what we're feelingin any given moment, allows us
(12:28):
to not dismiss that, but tochoose if and when we share that
and how we share that, andthat's really important.
Sometimes there are things thatwe absolutely need to say, but
thinking about the timing andthe manner in which we deliver,
that is so important in terms ofthe kind of reception that that
message gets, and this is oftenwhere people fall down.
Tim (12:48):
So how do we teach people to get to that point?
Obviously, I mean, we can getto that point by flying off the
handle and we learn fromnegative consequences, but I
don't know that that's reallylearning, that that's just
adapting to a negativeconsequence.
Richard (13:08):
it's not learning how to, to understand your feelings,
why they happen, when theyhappen, and then choosing to, to
, to make better decisions so Ithink I think part of it is
about developing more reflectivepractice in terms of how we
(13:28):
operate, and I think you know,often what we do is we learn
from experience.
But we learn from those bigexperiences, times where things
go badly wrong we think, well, Idon't want to do that again.
You know there's always goingto be an element of that.
But I think if we make it adaily attitude to actually
periodically, throughout the day, pause and think how am I
(13:48):
feeling in response to what I'vejust had in terms of an
interaction?
What am I feeling in terms ofthe interaction that I'm about
to have, or what am I having asan experience whilst I'm having
this interaction, the more awarewe are of that, we can use that
as signals, not signals that weneed to immediately act upon,
but signals as to where we standwith the position, and then we
can start to learn the skillsfor managing that.
(14:11):
So a lot of time when we'refeeling uncomfortable emotions,
the brain tells us right, youneed to do something with this
right away.
And so learning to moderatethat is really important, not
just in conversations but ingeneral.
And you think about societytoday more than ever, um, that
there's obvious examples of howwe can get instant gratification
(14:31):
.
You know, particularly in thedigital age.
You know if you want something,you can order it straight away.
If you want to send somebody amessage, you can send it
straight away, yeah, whereasbefore we had the ability to, to
, to, to be able to hold backbecause we had to, because you
couldn't have what you wantedstraight away or you couldn't
speak to that person untiltomorrow.
So there are benefits and thereare difficulties that come with
(14:56):
that, but I think, as a society, learning how to defer our
immediate impulses is really,really important, because it
gives us flexibility in terms ofhow we operate.
And if we're not used to thatand every time we get an impulse
, we act on it, however smallthat might be that trains the
brain to expect that every time,and for me, that's at the heart
(15:18):
of so many issues withinsociety that people cannot
recognize or know how to managethose emotions.
Tim (15:28):
Yeah, and how much do you think technology plays into that
?
You know, cause, as you'retalking, I'm thinking.
I don't know if you had arotary phone, but I remember
having a rotary phone.
Richard (15:38):
Yeah.
Tim (15:39):
Yeah, yeah, so there was no call waiting even at that time.
I remember when we got callwaiting, I remember when we got
an answering machine and Ivividly remember, you know,
leaving messages for people andwondering why they didn't call
me back four or five hours later.
And now, if I send a textmessage let's just say I send a
(16:03):
text message to my daughter andshe doesn't respond in two
minutes I'm like you know whatare you doing?
Well, yeah, so how much do youthink technology has played into
that, into that role of ourexpectations of wanting that,
that instant gratification and,let's just say, a decline in
emotional intelligence andunderstanding how to deal with
(16:24):
some of those things?
Richard (16:25):
Yeah, yeah, I think these challenges have been there
since time immemorial, but Ithink, certainly, the digital
age has amplified all of that,because we create a rod for our
back, don't we?
We create all of theseinventions with a view to making
life easier, but they actuallygenerate a lot of self-induced
pressure to making life easier,but they actually they generate
(16:47):
a lot of self-induced pressure.
You know, as you say, you senda text or an email and we expect
people to respond straight awayand it causes anxiety when they
don't.
Yeah, and we set thoseexpectations up for ourselves as
well.
You know, if we're quick atresponding to things, people
expect that from us every time,whereas if we're slower to
respond to things, people knowthat that's how we operate and
they get a little bit slightlymore comfortable with it.
(17:09):
So it definitely plays on allthese uh anxieties that we have
anyway about the unknown.
It um encourages us to act, toact on impulse, to do things in
haste, and the more that we dothat, the more the brain latches
onto that as a um, as a defaultposition.
It's not something that we donow and again.
It becomes a default positionand a default expectation, and
(17:31):
the brain is a creature of habitand it wants what it wants and
what it expects to get.
And if we don't give it that,there's a sense of the unknown
and again, the brain doesn'tdeal well with the unknown, so
it's definitely making thingsworse.
And and choice as well.
I think choice is another thingthat actually we've got so many
choices now that actually, um,you know, you go and order a
coffee and how many choices ofdifferent coffee can you have,
(17:53):
whereas in my day that you know,if there were two or three
choices, you were lucky.
Um, so choices as well meansthat we don't learn to tolerate
um, not getting what we want,things not being exactly how we
want, things not being exactlyhow we want them to be.
So all of these things affectour, our resilience and our
expectations about what'spossible and what we want.
Tim (18:14):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm chuckling again.
You know whether it's coffee,because for me there's, there's
only one way to get coffee it'sblack, a little bit of sugar.
I mean yeah yeah, I don't, Idon't.
I don't need all these otherflavors.
I don't need a mocha latte,whatever it is, I don't need
that.
Richard (18:30):
Yeah, it's like a different language, isn't it?
Yeah, it is.
Tim (18:33):
But I'm also the same way with a lot of other things.
I'm a plain, you know like thisshirt is a lot for me.
I'm generally a white shirt orblue shirt or and and when I go
to the store and if I can't findsomething just you know,
regular whatever I get upsetbecause it's I don't.
(18:56):
You've got yes, you've got30,000 shirts in here, but I
just want a regular, plain,plain shirt, and so I ended up
buying.
If I find something, I ended upbuying like five or six of them
because I know I'll never beable to find anything like it
again.
So it kind of goes that waywith me.
It's just funny.
Richard (19:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think we tend to seehaving things fast, having
choice has always been a goodthing, but I do think it comes
with its own problems, andcertainly in terms of how the
brain operates it.
It triggers all thosechallenges that we already have
as human beings and it makesthem much, much more severe, and
I think this is one of thereasons why we're seeing um more
(19:36):
examples of anxiety amongst theyounger generations is because,
actually, they haven't beentrained how to manage those
impulses and actually the theresources that are available to
them, as tempting as they are,are making those difficulties
more obvious.
Tim (19:51):
Right, right, yeah, again, I wonder.
I've got grandkids now andagain I wonder you know how we,
how, how we were brought up andthings that we were allowed to
do and able to do, compared tomy kids generations to now,
(20:13):
compared to, you know, my, mygrandkids generation, and the
things that they're never goingto be able to do that we got to
do, like going out and ridingyour bike unsupervised 20 miles
away?
Yeah, doing, I mean doingwhatever, exploring and that
freedom to to do things and makechoices and decisions and good,
(20:39):
good, bad and different anddealing with them and now with
them being so structured andnever really having that freedom
to do some things, I only seeit getting a little bit worse.
Richard (20:54):
Yeah, so you know, I agree, I think you know, for
most kids now things are sostructured and so sanitized they
don't have the opportunity tolearn that natural resilience of
when things don't go accordingto plan, to be able to develop
the resourcefulness to deal withthose situations or even to be
allowed to be bored.
Right, you know, I think aboutwhen I was a kid.
(21:16):
Yes, there were, you know,there were after school clubs,
but most of the time you playedout on the street and you made
your own entertainment, yeah,and as the time, you, you played
out on the street and you, youmade your own entertainment.
Yeah, and and and.
As a result, you, you know, you, you became more creative, you
became more resourceful.
You, you learned to workthrough difficult situations,
yeah, so again, I think you knowthere's there's a lot to be
(21:36):
said for that.
I think you know maybe we hadtoo much freedom, but, um, I
think, think again, you know,the pendulum's gone the other
way.
Tim (21:44):
Yeah, exactly, let's get back into the whole charisma
thing.
One of the things that I reallyreally liked about the book is
is you talk about the pillars ofcharisma, and the very first
one really kind of spoke to meand that's presence.
Yeah, and to me, presence isprobably the key to everything,
(22:07):
because if we're not present, wecan't listen.
If we're not present, we can'tbe empathetic, if we're not
present, we can't build trustand relationships.
Um so, so, uh, you know, I, I,I think that with a lot of
things, and especially from froman organizational development
(22:30):
perspective, from a leadershipperspective, being present is
obviously it's, it's key.
But but how do we teachpresence?
Richard (22:42):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's.
It's really difficult, isn't it?
And I think for me, again, tosome degree, it comes down to
emotional intelligence, and I'ma big advocate of things like
mindfulness, and I'm notnecessarily talking about
mindful meditation, I'm talkingabout mindfulness in any given
moment, making choices aboutwhere you put your focus, and a
lot of the time we slip intowhatever presents itself without
(23:03):
necessarily realizing we'redoing that.
So you know, how often are welistening to somebody and and
actually we might be picking upthe facts but not picking up the
nuances, the emotion that sitsbeneath it.
So you know, somebody said,what did they say?
You might be able to recount it, but because you're already
thinking about what you're goingto say next, before they've
even finished, you're, you're,you're talking at each other,
(23:24):
you're not talking with eachother, you're not creating
something between you.
So being distracted number one,it means that you don't have the
capacity to to recognize what'shappening in real time, right?
But number two, people pick upon it, people hold back from
sharing things.
You know, how often do we askpeople how they are?
But our body language, in theway that we say it says actually
(23:46):
, all I want is the, I just wantthe quick answer.
I'm letting you know, I've seenyou, I'm okay with you, but I
don't really want you to tell meabout, about everything that's
going on for you and people knowthat.
So people you know and peoplegive us a quick answer and and
because we don't create the timeand space for people to realize
that actually we might wantsomething more for them and we
give them an opportunity toexpand on what they first say,
(24:09):
those conversations remain on asuperficial level, so we never
really understand people.
As a leader, even if you walkthe floor, it's really, really
important to make people feelseen and heard.
That's how you createpsychological safety.
That means when you're sendingcompany-wide emails, when you're
talking about things likewell-being or care for your
people, that people genuinelybelieve that's what you mean.
(24:30):
It's not just lip service.
Tim (24:31):
Right, it's not coming from HR.
Hr says we got to do it, so wegot to do it.
Richard (24:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But actually how you manifest,if I'm an individual within your
organization and I know thatwhen I speak with you, you're
genuinely interested and you'regenuinely present, I'm more
likely to believe when you'resaying these other things.
Tim (24:49):
Yeah, I've got a friend who , with his team, he's got a
schedule that he reaches out toevery person on his team on any
given day throughout the week.
So, whether they realize it ornot, he's reaching out to them
(25:10):
to show that he cares and showthat he's interested in
different ways and at differenttimes.
And that's something that hedoes to show the presence,
presence to show the the thathe's interested in them.
And when he does that, hedoesn't necessarily always talk
about work-related things, it'sother things, it's family, it's
(25:33):
it's whatever, absolutely,really, really important that
you're not just here to do a job.
Richard (25:40):
I, I, I care about you as a, as an individual.
I think you know even more sowhen you can remember things
that you've spoken about withthat person.
You remember what their kidsare called, you can remember
what they like doing.
That goes a long way.
Tim (25:53):
Yeah, it really does.
And then we have technology andlike this, for example, when we
, when we're talking about beingpresent, this is something that
I really struggle with, richard.
For me to be present, I need tobe looking at you, but I need
(26:17):
to be connected here.
So I miss the nonverbal cues, Imiss the facial expressions, I
miss the hand gestures, the bodylanguage.
How do we, because we're soreliant on this type of
technology, how do we overcomethat?
Richard (26:36):
Yeah, yeah, well, I think that it's a really
interesting point.
I think for me, the first thingis setting the intention.
When we go into meetings, youthink about most people at work.
Now, particularly since COVID,it's back-to-back video meetings
, it's not meetings in rooms,and when you were meeting people
in the room you'd have thepreamble before the meeting
(26:58):
started.
You'd have the time after themeeting where actually you warm
up, you get to know somebody asan individual.
We don't have that anymore and Ithink the risk is that we
become very transactional, right.
What are we here to talk about?
Yeah, and and, and there needsto be a purpose to a meeting.
But actually easing into themeeting, creating a bit of a
buffer time around the meetingsyou haven't got to immediately
start, you haven't got to rushoff and setting the intention
(27:21):
actually I just want to connectwith people, I want to see how
people are doing is really,really important, and I think
you know it demands a lot morewhen, when we're operating
online and and certainly if youlook at some research that was
done a few years ago bymicrosoft, they did brain scans
of people who have back-to-backmeetings and actually the stress
response in your brainheightens when you have
(27:42):
back-to-back meetings.
So what that means is youimmediately become less
emotionally intelligent becauseyou're consumed more by your own
emotions.
You've got less spare capacityto think about what's going on
for other people unless they'revery, very explicit about it.
So actually realizing thatmeans that we can start to
mitigate against it.
We can set an intention when wego into meetings that we're
(28:03):
going to be attuned and presentfor people.
But also, even if we've onlygot a few seconds or minutes
before we go from one meeting toanother, we can start to think
about those transitions.
How am I feeling after thatmeeting I've just had?
Is there something I can do tooffset that?
Or, being aware of it, can I atleast tread a little bit more
carefully when I go into thisnext meeting?
(28:24):
And a lot of time we don't dothat.
We take that emotional baggage,that emotional leakage from
meeting to meeting and even ifwe think we've had a very good
meeting with somebody, how we'vedelivered our side of the
conversation will inevitably beaffected by what we're already
carrying if we're not aware ofit.
So for me, those are thingsthat we can do.
I think the other thing we needto do is slow the conversations
(28:48):
down.
Yeah, give more people time to,to expand on what they're
saying, particularly introverts,right, introverts need more
time to reflect, to expressthemselves.
So inevitably in anyenvironment, particularly online
, if we've got a group of people, extroverts are going to
dominate.
It's a lot harder to recognizewhen people aren't contributing.
So you've got to take the timeand consciously draw those
(29:10):
people into the meeting.
Tim (29:14):
Yeah, again, those are really good points when you
think about introverts andespecially on this type of call.
Unless they've really prepared,unless they've really have
something to say or have a spotin the meeting, they're not
(29:37):
going to speak.
I think they're less likely tospeak here than they would be in
an in-person meeting.
Richard (29:43):
Definitely it's a lot easier to hide, isn't it, when
there's a group of you andyou're online.
So I think you know with that.
I think one thing is having anagenda before the meetings.
You know how often do we usethe meetings as the time when we
actually decide what it iswe're going to talk about, and I
think even a brief agenda a fewminutes before the meeting
means that for anybody butparticularly introverts, they've
(30:05):
got more time to reflect onwhat they might want to say.
So you've given them more of anopportunity.
But I think you've also got toslow the conversation down to
allow them to fully expressthemselves, and I think maybe
even inviting them to lead on aparticular point helps them to
become more part of theconversation helps them to
(30:26):
become more part of theconversation.
Tim (30:27):
Yeah, and again, that's part of from a leader
perspective, knowing who you'releading, knowing what's going to
help and make them successfuland putting them in those
positions so that they can besuccessful is a critical piece.
Richard (30:45):
Yeah, so being as inclusive as you can be, because
otherwise, in any environment,but particularly online,
extroverts are going to dominate, and particularly when the
conversations are becoming verytransactional.
It's about exchanginginformation.
Things tend to speed up.
Tim (31:01):
Yeah, With me not teaching anymore.
I've been telling people overthe last month or two I I really
enjoy doing these, these things, but what I miss is that
personal interaction.
I I miss the in-person.
I miss the shaking somebody'shand or sitting down across from
somebody or next to somebody,you know, just having a
conversation about whatever itis.
(31:22):
And I was at a conference, youknow last week and how much more
invigorated I was being thereand when I left, as opposed to
again.
I really do enjoy this, but Imiss that personal thing.
Richard (31:38):
Yeah, I mean, it's a natural human experience, isn't
it, to be physically aroundother people.
So you know, we're putting anobstacle in the way of that when
we operate in this way.
Tim (31:52):
And I think you know, as I look at the other three pillars
of charisma, and especially nowwith technology and society,
where everybody's talking aboutAI and nobody really has a true
understanding I mean, if youthink about it, five years ago
we weren't really talking aboutAI.
And now all the tools that wehave and the power that AI has,
(32:15):
and when nobody really knowswhat is coming next to me, I
think we've kind of lost thewhole idea that it doesn't
matter.
Everything is about personalconnection.
Everything is about personalconnection.
Everything is about personalrelationships.
It doesn't matter what industryyou're in.
If you don't know how tocommunicate with people and
build personal relationships,you're not going to be
(32:35):
successful, the organization isnot going to be successful.
And that kind of goes to thethird pillar of charisma and the
warmth and connecting throughcare, Because if you don't know
who they are, again it comesback to what you said it's
transactional, it's nottransformational.
Richard (32:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So you've got to understand theindividual that you're with, to
know what it is that is mostlikely to give them what they
need to feel safe and reassured.
And I think again, look backthrough history.
You think about the Luddites inEngland into the 17th, 18th
century, smashing up machinerybecause they thought they would
(33:16):
take their jobs.
It's always been the case thatpeople have had this fear that
it's going to take away people'sjobs.
So, actually, people adapt, andthe thing that is consistent
throughout time is it's ourinterpersonal skills that make
all the difference, and that'swhat we need to focus on.
And in the future, that's wherethe jobs will be offering those
(33:39):
things that AI will never beable to offer Ever.
Tim (33:43):
And it's funny because AI, I use chat GPT for a number of
things.
It's, it's.
I mean it's it's.
They're great tools, theyreally are great tools, but I
don't think we should be relyingon them.
And I put a prompt in to chatGPT.
It basically said through allof our chats, describe me.
(34:04):
And it spit something out thatI thought was was somewhat
accurate, but but really kind offunny.
And you know, I put it out tosome people in my network and
they said, yeah, they're righthere, they're right here.
I would never have said thatabout you, but it's actually
correct.
And it's funny that I don't seemyself that way, but other
(34:29):
people see you that way and justsome of those inputs that we've
done, that the machine learningcan do that.
Richard (34:42):
It's still got a way to go.
I'm not sure it'll entirelybridge the gap, but it is
enormously powerful.
So I supervise a few therapistsand I've got one therapist who
I supervise and he uses AI.
When he's got a challenge witha client he says well, you know,
this is the situation, what doyou think?
And actually he says he's foundit really useful, not as a
(35:05):
substitute for what he does, butas an accompaniment and just
another option for bouncingideas off.
So you know, I think there isthe possibility for sort of a
hybrid approach.
It's not sort of one or theother.
But even still, I don't care howgood it gets, it's not going to
(35:28):
replace meeting somebodysitting, I don't think, shaking
their hand it's just no, no, no,no, because you know
essentially, you know, howevermuch we sort of um build
ourselves that we're effectivelysophisticated animals yeah and
like other animals, we've gotbasic requirements that we need
(35:49):
to maintain well-being andequilibrium, and one of those is
physical human contact.
Tim (35:56):
Right.
Richard (35:58):
We need that and if we don't have that over extended
periods, then actually we startto get out of balance and I
think you know again, that's youknow.
Going back to what we spokeabout earlier in terms of the
younger generation, I thinkwe're increasingly seeing this
that people aren't formulatinglong-term relationships, there's
more and more single people.
All these things inevitablyhave a bearing upon people's
(36:20):
mental health.
Tim (36:25):
So in South Africa and in the United Kingdom, are any of
these things being talked aboutor taught in in in schools, in
public education or anythinglike that?
Because at least over here wedon't talk about it at all?
I mean, it's, yeah, it's don'teven bring it up because we're
so focused on test scores, we'reso focused on on those all
(36:45):
these other things that maybethey're important, maybe they're
not, but we're missing these,these critical skills.
Richard (36:52):
Yeah, well, I think it's probably the same in the UK
and South Africa to some degree.
I think we're still very muchattached to that Victorian
curriculum.
It's about test results, it'sabout formal subjects, and
there'll always be a place forthose, I'm sure.
But there is a change in thetide though.
(37:13):
There is more work that's beendone around things like
mindfulness and well-being, um,and I guess the other thing
that's happening is that a lotof schools are bringing in
charters that say right, we, we,we, don't allow any any um
phones in in the school.
We are encouraging parents tosign up to the pledge that
actually they will limit theamount of screen time that their
(37:33):
children have.
So they can't enforce that, butthey are trying to get parents
to buy into, and a lot ofparents are.
So things are changing, I think, I think, but we are still
heavily attached to that oldsort of antiquated um school
curriculum that you might haveeven seen 100 years ago.
Tim (37:48):
Yeah, yeah, what you know, my last year or so of teaching
I've, what I found was I Icouldn't really even teach the
subject matter very well,because it wouldn't, wouldn't
really matter, because if theycan't communicate, if they can't
go out and and just holdcommerce you know adult
professional conversations yeah,it doesn't really matter.
(38:09):
So so we focus a lot, a lot onthose things.
Richard (38:12):
Yeah, so those foundation skills are missing,
then you know it completelyundermines everything else
you're trying to do, doesn't ityeah?
Tim (38:18):
Exactly, Exactly so.
So what about storytelling?
I mean, I think over the lastfew years, I think the whole
idea of storytelling has hasreally come, has really kind of
blossomed, and a lot of thepeople that I talk with think
that there's got to be somegrand story of their life.
But I tell them it's not.
(38:40):
It doesn't have to be a grand,it's just your story, it's your
life, it's your experiences.
You went to the grocery store,you got a flat tire and you, you
know, you fixed flat tire, butyou had a conversation with
somebody who's a connection overhere.
I mean, that's how it's not.
(39:00):
It doesn't have to be a anin-depth, you know, Academy
award winning story, it's just anormal everyday life.
Richard (39:05):
Yeah, yeah, and I think again, it's about.
It's about being authentic andbeing your true self, isn't it?
And I think, a lot of the time,people don't share stories
about themselves because theydiscount them.
It's not other peoplediscounting those stories, it's
them discounting them.
And I think there's a lot to besaid for people owning their
stories, whether it's their lifestory, whether it's the story
(39:26):
of what happened to them thatday, but owning that stuff and
if you think about you know someof the more famous people that
we regard as being charismatic,they have a story and it's not
always a linear story.
It's like things go wrong, butactually they're often stories
about redemption, aboutresilience, and actually that
not only inspires other people,but it's also more relatable for
(39:49):
other people.
People think, well, I've nothad that, but I's also more
relatable for other people.
People think, well, I've nothad that, but I've had other
things happen, and so suddenly,even if we're very successful,
they think, well, actually,maybe you are a bit like me,
maybe I can relate to you andtalk to you about things that
are important to me, that arehappening for me, and I think
that that's important and youknow, you see this even to this
day, within the realm ofleadership, that leaders think
(40:10):
they've got to presentthemselves as being perfect.
They've got to presentthemselves as knowing everything
.
And actually, number one it'snot true.
And number two it puts you on apedestal.
It means other people arefrightened.
People are frightened to talkabout what's really going on.
Tim (40:23):
Yeah, and they're just normal people.
And they're just normal peopleand that's so in the space that
one of my previous lives,professional lives.
You know a lot of professionalathletes, a lot of those types
(40:44):
of things, and people would sayare you getting autographs?
I said no, they're just normalpeople.
They're normal people like youand me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So one, that's my job.
It's not appropriate.
Number two, when they're notover here doing their sports,
they just want to be left alone.
They just want to go live theirlife.
They want to have a wife, theywant to have kids, they want to
(41:15):
go to the so much better thaneverybody else.
Okay, they've got a veryspecial talent.
I'm not saying anything otherthan that They've got a very
special talent, but they're nodifferent than you and me.
They really aren't, reallyaren't.
(41:36):
And you know, there was a time Iwas with my family and we
stopped by a college that I wentto that wanted to go in the
bookstore and a famousprofessional athlete was in
there.
And I'm just going on about mybusiness and one of my daughters
says, oh, it's so-and-so.
I said yeah, and she said can Igo talk to him?
I said, well, I wish that youwouldn't, but you can if you
want.
I mean, she, she was a younggirl which is very different
than than me, and I said but ifhe, if he says no, if he's with
(41:58):
his family, you gotta leave himalone.
And he, he was actually very,very kind, very, very um
appreciative, and when she cameback she asked why I didn't do
it and she kind of learnedbecause you know, the kids kind
of grew up in that area that youknow again, they're not that.
Yes, they're special becausethey've got a great talent and
(42:21):
they make a lot of money, butthey're just normal people.
And I think that the generalpopulation, when it comes to
leaders, whether it's athletes,whether it's fortune 500 ceos,
whatever it is they they tend toput these people on pedestals
and they don't even want to beon that pedestal, but it's it's
(42:42):
a lot of you know, having workedwith some of these types of
it's a lot of pressure to carryto be that yeah, that uh
perceived person all the time.
Richard (42:50):
But it's also also quite lonely, because it means
actually, when you've got yourown challenges, if that's what
people expect from you, it'svery difficult to then say
actually I'm struggling withthis.
Tim (43:01):
And when they do, they have a feeling that people think
less of them, and most of thetime that's not true either.
They're saying, wow, I can, hehas, he or she has those issues,
what, what can we do to helpthem?
Richard (43:20):
and and so it's kind of the exact, the exact opposite,
exactly.
But unfortunately a lot of thetime because there are those
kind of hesitancies that issuesthat could be addressed
relatively easily become biggerthings.
And you know, we see it sooften that way in the news with
celebrities that it's only whenthe wheels really come off that
the issues become apparent.
And a lot of times it's becausethey feel this barrier.
(43:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Tim (43:47):
We had a young man, high-profile athlete, getting
ready to be drafted in the NFL,committed suicide because he was
, you know.
He got himself in some troubleand apparently that was his only
way out of it.
And that's part of the problemAgain, you know, with going back
(44:11):
to the whole idea of therapyand being able to uh talk things
through and and and, uh figure,figure things out, and that's
kind of it's, it's about normal,normalize the experiences in it
, whether it's charisma whetherit's mental.
(44:31):
So you're not the only personthat's felt like that.
Right, right, it's sad.
I think you know I don't wantto go too far down this road,
but the mental health systemhere in the United States is
completely broke.
We don't have nearly enoughtherapists.
We don't have.
We've come a long way in thecase of some of these things,
but we don't have the resourcesto truly help some of these
people.
Richard (44:53):
Yeah, yeah, and it's.
You know it's the same.
It's the same in the uk, Ithink there's there's more
people that are open toreceiving therapy than certainly
when I first started as atherapist, but the resources
aren't available.
You know, it's a it's aminefield as well, because
there's no government registeredaccreditation.
So you know, pretty muchanybody can set themselves up as
a therapist and, you know,cause all kinds of damage.
Tim (45:12):
Yeah, yeah, no, oh well, I it's.
All we can do is encouragepeople to to be open and and and
and share and and help guidethem in the right direction.
I guess, yeah, but if for ayoung person, what would you say
(45:32):
would be the one thing thatthey should do to start building
charisma, to start buildingthose communication and
leadership skills that theytruly need?
Richard (45:45):
Yeah.
So I think one of the biggestthings that you can do is start
to develop and demonstratecuriosity for other people.
So I think you know, I rememberback to sort of being a
teenager and being quiteidealistic and quite firm in my
views about things.
And actually, you know, as yougo through life you hopefully
become more flexible.
(46:06):
As you, you know, you have yourown challenges.
You come into contact withdifferent types of people and I
think one way of fast, of fasttracking that is to show
curiosity for people's positions.
Ask lots of open-ended questions.
Create space for people toelaborate on what they say.
Don't just, don't just respondthe first thing they say.
Give them space to add to thatand actually what you might find
(46:26):
is that you develop moreempathy for people's positions.
It might even be that itchallenges some of your views
about your own life and the waythat things should operate.
So that's the biggest thing youcan do.
You know, a lot of the timewhen we're we're we're we're
meeting people, we feel it'salmost like we've got to put on
a performance.
We've got to come out with lotsof interesting things to say.
But actually interesting thingsflow from asking questions, not
(46:47):
from putting on a performancethat's, that's true.
Tim (46:51):
It's it's because, for the most part, people are surface
level people.
It's when when they start um,when they can ask those deeper
questions, those meaningfulquestions, that's when when
things really start to start tocome out.
But trying to get, trying toget young, younger people to
understand that and to trulythink about what they want to
(47:16):
know, again, yeah, you gottaknow first off who you are and
and do some research into the,into these other things before
you just go out there and startasking, you know, superficial
questions.
So that's, that's a, that's aprocess, but it's, it's not hard
to do.
Anybody can, can do this if youjust spend, spend a little bit
(47:37):
of time it exactly whateversomebody might say.
Richard (47:41):
You know even it's talking about their weekend.
You know we tend to latch on tothe facts of what they did at
the weekend, but ask them whatthat means.
To what was that like?
What did you enjoy about that?
Yeah, you seem really excited.
What did you enjoy about that?
You seem really excited whenyou're talking about that.
Getting people to tap into theemotions of whatever it is
they're telling you deepens theconnection.
Really, it helps you tounderstand why people do what
(48:05):
they do.
Tim (48:05):
Well, Richard, thank you so much for your time today.
Where can people find you if?
Richard (48:11):
they want to work with you and buy your book.
So if you want to find out moreabout me, you can find me on
LinkedIn.
So it's Richard Reid, spelledR-E-I-D, or you can go to my
website, which iswwwrichard-reidcom.
Awesome.
Tim (48:24):
Well again, richard, thank you so much for spending some
time with us, my pleasure.
You so much for for spendingsome time with us my pleasure
again, really good actionableadvice and um I I really hope
people go and and and read buyyour book and read it.
It's, it's an easy read um andthank you one more thing when I,
when I get a book, I don't Idon't start at chapter one and
(48:45):
read all the way through.
I I open it up, I look at thetable of contents oh, this looks
like a good chapter, and I readit.
Then I bounce back and forthand it's an easy read.
It's an easy read.
Lots of good tips in there,lots of good strategies.
So go buy the book and read it.
But again, richard, thank youso much for spending time with
(49:06):
me.
Richard (49:06):
Thank you, tim, really appreciate it.
Tim (49:09):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free e-book Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theFormula for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that
helps you build the soft skillsthat lead to real results
Communication, storytelling,public speaking and showing up
with confidence in everyconversation that counts.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor and
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
(00:29):
It truly means the world to me.
If you have questions or if youwant something covered on the
podcast, send me a message.
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free e-book.
Top 21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is Richard Reed.
Richard is a seasoned therapist, coach and organization
(00:51):
well-being expert with over 20years of experience.
He helps individuals andorganizations unlock their full
potential and thrive.
From trauma recovery toexecutive coaching.
He brings a pragmatic andapproachable style to every
endeavor.
He's also the author of theAmazon bestseller Charisma
Unlocked Richard, welcome to theshow.
Richard (01:11):
Hi there, Tim.
Thanks for having me.
Really good to be here.
Tim (01:15):
I'm glad you could make it.
I'm really looking forward totalking with you today.
There's so much I want to talkabout.
I read your book and it makesso much sense.
But I have so many questionsbecause I never really thought
about charisma in the way thatyou present it.
But you know the way youpresent it and the ideas.
(01:36):
I was like, wow, I can'tbelieve that I'm just thinking
of it this way, this way.
Was there something that kindof led you down this road to get
into Charisma from a leadershipperspective and a research
perspective like this?
Richard (01:53):
Yeah.
So it all started from workingas a therapist.
In the area of London that Iwas working.
At the time, there were lots ofquite affluent people, people
who were in their own businesses, entrepreneurs, and a lot of
the issues they were coming withwere around things like
confidence, around connectingwith others, influencing others,
and I thought how can I packagethis in a way that I can take
(02:15):
to organizations?
Because I think even in thisday and age, from my view, there
are lots of people who canbenefit from therapy, but lots
of people attach a stigma to theidea of therapy, whereas if you
present it in terms of coachingskills and business skills,
people buy into it far more.
But essentially you're offeringthe same same service under
(02:37):
under a different, under adifferent name.
So I really thought how could Ipackage all of these things
together?
And the idea of charisma seemedto really, really work because
at the very least, it creates aconversation.
You know, even if I'm talkingto mates at a barbecue, you
mentioned the word charisma,everybody's got something to say
and it generates a conversation.
Tim (03:00):
It really does.
And it's funny you said thatyou know, in terms of of therapy
, I've got an office mate who isa therapist and and a coach and
she said something to be almostthe exact same word for word
about two weeks ago and whatshe's doing is kind of giving up
her her therapy practice andmoving on to coaching, because
(03:22):
it seems to have a better umconnotation to it and doing some
of those same things and and itjust, it just makes a whole lot
of sense.
It gets rid of the negativeconnotation and I don't know if
you notice I I kind of chuckledwhen you said but a lot of
people could benefit fromtherapy.
Richard (03:36):
I I agree with you yeah , yeah, yeah, definitely believe
that I do, yeah so, uh, but Ithink a lot with with charisma.
Tim (03:47):
You know, when you and I talked a little bit about this
when we did the pre-show, the,the difference between charisma
and and charm, um, it's reallyabout manipulation.
Is that, is that?
Is that?
Is that a fair assessment?
Richard (04:01):
for me, the the one of the risks with charm is that
it's it's about manipulation.
But but for me also, umconjures up ideas of, of
superficial, superficial, uh,connection skills and actually
what we're talking about withcharisma at least the kind of
charisma that I teach and coachto people it's about um being
authentic.
It's about being who you reallyare, being comfortable with
(04:23):
that and using it in a flexibleway that also brings out the
best in other people.
So it's the true you connectingwith the true version of other
people, and what you're tryingto do with it is to create what
we call a virtuous circle.
So it's not just about how canI say whatever I need to say
here to get what I need fromthis situation.
It's how can I try and createwin-win situations that actually
(04:44):
make other people come awayfeeling good about themselves
too?
Tim (04:47):
right, right and and building that, building building
relationships and buildingconnections, um, really does it.
To me it's a domino effect,right, because you don't really
have um, yeah, can't have trustunless you have, you know, good,
good relationships.
You can't have goodrelationships unless you, uh,
(05:08):
have good communication skills.
So so to me it's all kind ofyou have to have everything
along the way to to be able toget to where you want to get to
absolutely so.
Richard (05:19):
So, quite, quite right, as you say, for me it's about
creating safety in relationships, safety where I can trust you.
I can trust you with a job, aproject, my money, or I can
trust you, um, to share thingswith you that I might not share
with other people about myself,and I think you know, one of the
big things I I've learned from,from working in the therapy
(05:40):
world, is that a lot of theproblems that we have come from,
uh, the idea that actually wehide parts of ourselves away,
parts of ourselves we don'tthink are acceptable, parts of
ourselves that don't fit witheverybody else and what we
perceive to be society'sexpectations, and obviously
we've all got to adapt slightlyaccording to the environment
that we're in.
But actually when we developthe confidence to show those
(06:02):
other parts of ourselves, that'show we celebrate our uniqueness
, that's how we make ourselvesmore memorable, um, and, and
part of charisma is about usshowing that to the world, but
also helping other people tobring that out of themselves as
well yeah, and you know, I thinkabout it.
Tim (06:17):
I had a conversation earlier today, uh, about the
differences in in generationsyou know, and our generations
there was.
There was no individuality.
That was something that wasreally frowned upon and if you,
if you, tried to beindividualistic, you were really
kind of, you know, smack down.
(06:38):
So and now we're we're in atime in society where we're
encouraging the individual to beindividualistic.
We're encouraging theindividual to be authentic and
be who they are and notnecessarily conform to what
society or family or whatever itis what they expect of us.
Richard (07:03):
It's a dangerous balance.
What they expect of us, it's adangerous balance and I think
you know I'm a big student ofhistory and you see this in
various points in history thatthe pendulum switches, doesn't
it?
And sometimes in quite extremeways, and then a lot of the time
we then recalibrate, and Ithink we're going through one of
those sort of recalibrationphases as a society at the
moment.
But I think for me, I'm all forindividuality, but I I think
(07:27):
we've also look at um rightsversus responsibilities, that
actually, if we want the benefitof structures, organizations,
what structure society has tooffer, we also need to, we also
need to adapt to that to somedegree and and hopefully we can
find a balance where we canstill be an individual but we're
also contributing.
And I think the risk is at themoment we've got lots of people
(07:49):
demanding their rights, my rightto be who I am, but actually
what?
What are you giving back inreturn for that?
right yeah, and that's that's.
Tim (07:57):
That's the the tension for me at the moment and, and I
think that's a tension for a lotof people, I think, you know, I
think people from ourgeneration feel it and worry
about it and struggle with it,and just, I think the people
with the younger generations aretoo.
And you know, I think I don'tknow that there's a good
(08:20):
standard answer, but I do thinkthat, you know, both sides have
to have to be willing to meeteach other somewhere in the
middle.
Right, I do.
I think it's our responsibilityfrom our generation to reach
out and try and and make thoseconnections and and try and
understand and bring them along,just because that's again that
comes from our generation.
Right, it's?
You know, we're the, we're the,we're the ones we're not, we're
(08:41):
now the leaders, we're now thementors, the patriarchs, the
matriarchs, what have you?
And it's our job to mentor andso forth.
But I also think that theyounger generations have to be
willing and open to coming alongfor that ride and being open to
having the conversations.
Richard (08:58):
So I think it goes both ways, Absolutely, and I think
you know.
Going back to what we weresaying before about this idea of
safety, psychological safetypart of it is showing curiosity
for other people's positions,isn't it?
Even if we don't necessarilyimmediately understand them or
agree with them.
Showing curiosity, affordingrespect, makes people more open
to considering alternativeviewpoints, and I think that's
(09:18):
what needs to happen here.
And I think, as the oldergenerations, inevitably we hold
more power and influence insociety, so actually it's almost
more incumbent on us toinitiate those conversations.
Tim (09:35):
And being willing to not have the hardline stance, which,
again, I'm sure you're the sameway.
There's some things that I'mwilling to, to be really
flexible on, but there's otherthings I'm like I don't know
that I want to be flexible atall, but at least I'm open to
having the conversation and andand listening and going from
(09:56):
there and I think that's, youknow, from a broader societal
perspective.
I'm not sure that there's manypeople that are, that are in
that camp.
Richard (10:06):
No perspective.
I I'm not sure that there'smany people that are, that are
in that camp.
No, I think that's true and youknow, I see it sort of in in
terms of society.
I see in in organizations aswell that that often we're quite
transactional in terms of howwe deal with people.
So we, you know, we makeassumptions about their
viewpoint, or even if we knowwhat their viewpoint is, we
don't take the time tounderstand the emotions that sit
beneath that.
And I think you know, even iffundamentally we disagree with
somebody's position, if we'rehaving a, a conversation of
(10:28):
respect and curiosity, then thenhopefully we can share why it
is that we need to draw a lineon something and people can, can
negotiate with us how we, howwe navigate that and I think
that goes back to something thatwe talked about in in the in
the pre-show interview.
Tim (10:43):
You know, listening and and listening, with the idea of um
being being empathetic andlistening to understand as
opposed to listening to, toresponding, and and those types
of things yeah, and I thinkthat's that's often the.
Richard (11:04):
The challenge, isn't it , that we we don't think about
the intention we want to createin the conversation.
We go with what our impulsetells us and actually, if we go
into these types ofconversations the intention that
we want to understand and wewant to collaborate and create
something between us, then moreoften than not our behaviors
align with that, whereas we goin there with no idea of what we
(11:24):
want to do or we go in therewith the idea that we simply
want to undermine somebody'sposition, then the barriers go
up, yeah.
Tim (11:34):
And the whole idea of knowing when to speak and what
to say when to speak, and Ithink that's a –'s a.
Richard (11:44):
I think a lot most of communication is a learned skill
, but I think that piece rightthere is is takes a lot longer
to learn and we I think we learnmore from trial and error than
we do anything else sometimesyeah, yeah, I think I think
that's so true and some, somepeople never get there, but I
think, um, for me, a big part ofit is about how you manage your
(12:07):
internal world, and if you aredriven by your emotions and
you're driven by your impulses,then actually, as soon as you
hear anything that you don'tlike, you're going to intercede,
you're going to cut somebodyelse off, you're going to cause
offense or cause barriers to goup.
So learning to be moreemotionally intelligent,
understanding what we're feelingin any given moment, allows us
(12:28):
to not dismiss that, but tochoose if and when we share that
and how we share that, andthat's really important.
Sometimes there are things thatwe absolutely need to say, but
thinking about the timing andthe manner in which we deliver,
that is so important in terms ofthe kind of reception that that
message gets, and this is oftenwhere people fall down.
Tim (12:48):
So how do we teach people to get to that point?
Obviously, I mean, we can getto that point by flying off the
handle and we learn fromnegative consequences, but I
don't know that that's reallylearning, that that's just
adapting to a negativeconsequence.
Richard (13:08):
it's not learning how to, to understand your feelings,
why they happen, when theyhappen, and then choosing to, to
, to make better decisions so Ithink I think part of it is
about developing more reflectivepractice in terms of how we
(13:28):
operate, and I think you know,often what we do is we learn
from experience.
But we learn from those bigexperiences, times where things
go badly wrong we think, well, Idon't want to do that again.
You know there's always goingto be an element of that.
But I think if we make it adaily attitude to actually
periodically, throughout the day, pause and think how am I
(13:48):
feeling in response to what I'vejust had in terms of an
interaction?
What am I feeling in terms ofthe interaction that I'm about
to have, or what am I having asan experience whilst I'm having
this interaction, the more awarewe are of that, we can use that
as signals, not signals that weneed to immediately act upon,
but signals as to where we standwith the position, and then we
can start to learn the skillsfor managing that.
(14:11):
So a lot of time when we'refeeling uncomfortable emotions,
the brain tells us right, youneed to do something with this
right away.
And so learning to moderatethat is really important, not
just in conversations but ingeneral.
And you think about societytoday more than ever, um, that
there's obvious examples of howwe can get instant gratification
(14:31):
.
You know, particularly in thedigital age.
You know if you want something,you can order it straight away.
If you want to send somebody amessage, you can send it
straight away, yeah, whereasbefore we had the ability to, to
, to, to be able to hold backbecause we had to, because you
couldn't have what you wantedstraight away or you couldn't
speak to that person untiltomorrow.
So there are benefits and thereare difficulties that come with
(14:56):
that, but I think, as a society, learning how to defer our
immediate impulses is really,really important, because it
gives us flexibility in terms ofhow we operate.
And if we're not used to thatand every time we get an impulse
, we act on it, however smallthat might be that trains the
brain to expect that every time,and for me, that's at the heart
(15:18):
of so many issues withinsociety that people cannot
recognize or know how to managethose emotions.
Tim (15:28):
Yeah, and how much do you think technology plays into that
?
You know, cause, as you'retalking, I'm thinking.
I don't know if you had arotary phone, but I remember
having a rotary phone.
Richard (15:38):
Yeah.
Tim (15:39):
Yeah, yeah, so there was no call waiting even at that time.
I remember when we got callwaiting, I remember when we got
an answering machine and Ivividly remember, you know,
leaving messages for people andwondering why they didn't call
me back four or five hours later.
And now, if I send a textmessage let's just say I send a
(16:03):
text message to my daughter andshe doesn't respond in two
minutes I'm like you know whatare you doing?
Well, yeah, so how much do youthink technology has played into
that, into that role of ourexpectations of wanting that,
that instant gratification and,let's just say, a decline in
emotional intelligence andunderstanding how to deal with
(16:24):
some of those things?
Richard (16:25):
Yeah, yeah, I think these challenges have been there
since time immemorial, but Ithink, certainly, the digital
age has amplified all of that,because we create a rod for our
back, don't we?
We create all of theseinventions with a view to making
life easier, but they actuallygenerate a lot of self-induced
pressure to making life easier,but they actually they generate
(16:47):
a lot of self-induced pressure.
You know, as you say, you senda text or an email and we expect
people to respond straight awayand it causes anxiety when they
don't.
Yeah, and we set thoseexpectations up for ourselves as
well.
You know, if we're quick atresponding to things, people
expect that from us every time,whereas if we're slower to
respond to things, people knowthat that's how we operate and
they get a little bit slightlymore comfortable with it.
(17:09):
So it definitely plays on allthese uh anxieties that we have
anyway about the unknown.
It um encourages us to act, toact on impulse, to do things in
haste, and the more that we dothat, the more the brain latches
onto that as a um, as a defaultposition.
It's not something that we donow and again.
It becomes a default positionand a default expectation, and
(17:31):
the brain is a creature of habitand it wants what it wants and
what it expects to get.
And if we don't give it that,there's a sense of the unknown
and again, the brain doesn'tdeal well with the unknown, so
it's definitely making thingsworse.
And and choice as well.
I think choice is another thingthat actually we've got so many
choices now that actually, um,you know, you go and order a
coffee and how many choices ofdifferent coffee can you have,
(17:53):
whereas in my day that you know,if there were two or three
choices, you were lucky.
Um, so choices as well meansthat we don't learn to tolerate
um, not getting what we want,things not being exactly how we
want, things not being exactlyhow we want them to be.
So all of these things affectour, our resilience and our
expectations about what'spossible and what we want.
Tim (18:14):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm chuckling again.
You know whether it's coffee,because for me there's, there's
only one way to get coffee it'sblack, a little bit of sugar.
I mean yeah yeah, I don't, Idon't.
I don't need all these otherflavors.
I don't need a mocha latte,whatever it is, I don't need
that.
Richard (18:30):
Yeah, it's like a different language, isn't it?
Yeah, it is.
Tim (18:33):
But I'm also the same way with a lot of other things.
I'm a plain, you know like thisshirt is a lot for me.
I'm generally a white shirt orblue shirt or and and when I go
to the store and if I can't findsomething just you know,
regular whatever I get upsetbecause it's I don't.
(18:56):
You've got yes, you've got30,000 shirts in here, but I
just want a regular, plain,plain shirt, and so I ended up
buying.
If I find something, I ended upbuying like five or six of them
because I know I'll never beable to find anything like it
again.
So it kind of goes that waywith me.
It's just funny.
Richard (19:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think we tend to seehaving things fast, having
choice has always been a goodthing, but I do think it comes
with its own problems, andcertainly in terms of how the
brain operates it.
It triggers all thosechallenges that we already have
as human beings and it makesthem much, much more severe, and
I think this is one of thereasons why we're seeing um more
(19:36):
examples of anxiety amongst theyounger generations is because,
actually, they haven't beentrained how to manage those
impulses and actually the theresources that are available to
them, as tempting as they are,are making those difficulties
more obvious.
Tim (19:51):
Right, right, yeah, again, I wonder.
I've got grandkids now andagain I wonder you know how we,
how, how we were brought up andthings that we were allowed to
do and able to do, compared tomy kids generations to now,
(20:13):
compared to, you know, my, mygrandkids generation, and the
things that they're never goingto be able to do that we got to
do, like going out and ridingyour bike unsupervised 20 miles
away?
Yeah, doing, I mean doingwhatever, exploring and that
freedom to to do things and makechoices and decisions and good,
(20:39):
good, bad and different anddealing with them and now with
them being so structured andnever really having that freedom
to do some things, I only seeit getting a little bit worse.
Richard (20:54):
Yeah, so you know, I agree, I think you know, for
most kids now things are sostructured and so sanitized they
don't have the opportunity tolearn that natural resilience of
when things don't go accordingto plan, to be able to develop
the resourcefulness to deal withthose situations or even to be
allowed to be bored.
Right, you know, I think aboutwhen I was a kid.
(21:16):
Yes, there were, you know,there were after school clubs,
but most of the time you playedout on the street and you made
your own entertainment, yeah,and as the time, you, you played
out on the street and you, youmade your own entertainment.
Yeah, and and and.
As a result, you, you know, you, you became more creative, you
became more resourceful.
You, you learned to workthrough difficult situations,
yeah, so again, I think you knowthere's there's a lot to be
(21:36):
said for that.
I think you know maybe we hadtoo much freedom, but, um, I
think, think again, you know,the pendulum's gone the other
way.
Tim (21:44):
Yeah, exactly, let's get back into the whole charisma
thing.
One of the things that I reallyreally liked about the book is
is you talk about the pillars ofcharisma, and the very first
one really kind of spoke to meand that's presence.
Yeah, and to me, presence isprobably the key to everything,
(22:07):
because if we're not present, wecan't listen.
If we're not present, we can'tbe empathetic, if we're not
present, we can't build trustand relationships.
Um so, so, uh, you know, I, I,I think that with a lot of
things, and especially from froman organizational development
(22:30):
perspective, from a leadershipperspective, being present is
obviously it's, it's key.
But but how do we teachpresence?
Richard (22:42):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's.
It's really difficult, isn't it?
And I think for me, again, tosome degree, it comes down to
emotional intelligence, and I'ma big advocate of things like
mindfulness, and I'm notnecessarily talking about
mindful meditation, I'm talkingabout mindfulness in any given
moment, making choices aboutwhere you put your focus, and a
lot of the time we slip intowhatever presents itself without
(23:03):
necessarily realizing we'redoing that.
So you know, how often are welistening to somebody and and
actually we might be picking upthe facts but not picking up the
nuances, the emotion that sitsbeneath it.
So you know, somebody said,what did they say?
You might be able to recount it, but because you're already
thinking about what you're goingto say next, before they've
even finished, you're, you're,you're talking at each other,
(23:24):
you're not talking with eachother, you're not creating
something between you.
So being distracted number one,it means that you don't have the
capacity to to recognize what'shappening in real time, right?
But number two, people pick upon it, people hold back from
sharing things.
You know, how often do we askpeople how they are?
But our body language, in theway that we say it says actually
(23:46):
, all I want is the, I just wantthe quick answer.
I'm letting you know, I've seenyou, I'm okay with you, but I
don't really want you to tell meabout, about everything that's
going on for you and people knowthat.
So people you know and peoplegive us a quick answer and and
because we don't create the timeand space for people to realize
that actually we might wantsomething more for them and we
give them an opportunity toexpand on what they first say,
(24:09):
those conversations remain on asuperficial level, so we never
really understand people.
As a leader, even if you walkthe floor, it's really, really
important to make people feelseen and heard.
That's how you createpsychological safety.
That means when you're sendingcompany-wide emails, when you're
talking about things likewell-being or care for your
people, that people genuinelybelieve that's what you mean.
(24:30):
It's not just lip service.
Tim (24:31):
Right, it's not coming from HR.
Hr says we got to do it, so wegot to do it.
Richard (24:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But actually how you manifest,if I'm an individual within your
organization and I know thatwhen I speak with you, you're
genuinely interested and you'regenuinely present, I'm more
likely to believe when you'resaying these other things.
Tim (24:49):
Yeah, I've got a friend who , with his team, he's got a
schedule that he reaches out toevery person on his team on any
given day throughout the week.
So, whether they realize it ornot, he's reaching out to them
(25:10):
to show that he cares and showthat he's interested in
different ways and at differenttimes.
And that's something that hedoes to show the presence,
presence to show the the thathe's interested in them.
And when he does that, hedoesn't necessarily always talk
about work-related things, it'sother things, it's family, it's
(25:33):
it's whatever, absolutely,really, really important that
you're not just here to do a job.
Richard (25:40):
I, I, I care about you as a, as an individual.
I think you know even more sowhen you can remember things
that you've spoken about withthat person.
You remember what their kidsare called, you can remember
what they like doing.
That goes a long way.
Tim (25:53):
Yeah, it really does.
And then we have technology andlike this, for example, when we
, when we're talking about beingpresent, this is something that
I really struggle with, richard.
For me to be present, I need tobe looking at you, but I need
(26:17):
to be connected here.
So I miss the nonverbal cues, Imiss the facial expressions, I
miss the hand gestures, the bodylanguage.
How do we, because we're soreliant on this type of
technology, how do we overcomethat?
Richard (26:36):
Yeah, yeah, well, I think that it's a really
interesting point.
I think for me, the first thingis setting the intention.
When we go into meetings, youthink about most people at work.
Now, particularly since COVID,it's back-to-back video meetings
, it's not meetings in rooms,and when you were meeting people
in the room you'd have thepreamble before the meeting
(26:58):
started.
You'd have the time after themeeting where actually you warm
up, you get to know somebody asan individual.
We don't have that anymore and Ithink the risk is that we
become very transactional, right.
What are we here to talk about?
Yeah, and and, and there needsto be a purpose to a meeting.
But actually easing into themeeting, creating a bit of a
buffer time around the meetingsyou haven't got to immediately
start, you haven't got to rushoff and setting the intention
(27:21):
actually I just want to connectwith people, I want to see how
people are doing is really,really important, and I think
you know it demands a lot morewhen, when we're operating
online and and certainly if youlook at some research that was
done a few years ago bymicrosoft, they did brain scans
of people who have back-to-backmeetings and actually the stress
response in your brainheightens when you have
(27:42):
back-to-back meetings.
So what that means is youimmediately become less
emotionally intelligent becauseyou're consumed more by your own
emotions.
You've got less spare capacityto think about what's going on
for other people unless they'revery, very explicit about it.
So actually realizing thatmeans that we can start to
mitigate against it.
We can set an intention when wego into meetings that we're
(28:03):
going to be attuned and presentfor people.
But also, even if we've onlygot a few seconds or minutes
before we go from one meeting toanother, we can start to think
about those transitions.
How am I feeling after thatmeeting I've just had?
Is there something I can do tooffset that?
Or, being aware of it, can I atleast tread a little bit more
carefully when I go into thisnext meeting?
(28:24):
And a lot of time we don't dothat.
We take that emotional baggage,that emotional leakage from
meeting to meeting and even ifwe think we've had a very good
meeting with somebody, how we'vedelivered our side of the
conversation will inevitably beaffected by what we're already
carrying if we're not aware ofit.
So for me, those are thingsthat we can do.
I think the other thing we needto do is slow the conversations
(28:48):
down.
Yeah, give more people time to,to expand on what they're
saying, particularly introverts,right, introverts need more
time to reflect, to expressthemselves.
So inevitably in anyenvironment, particularly online
, if we've got a group of people, extroverts are going to
dominate.
It's a lot harder to recognizewhen people aren't contributing.
So you've got to take the timeand consciously draw those
(29:10):
people into the meeting.
Tim (29:14):
Yeah, again, those are really good points when you
think about introverts andespecially on this type of call.
Unless they've really prepared,unless they've really have
something to say or have a spotin the meeting, they're not
(29:37):
going to speak.
I think they're less likely tospeak here than they would be in
an in-person meeting.
Richard (29:43):
Definitely it's a lot easier to hide, isn't it, when
there's a group of you andyou're online.
So I think you know with that.
I think one thing is having anagenda before the meetings.
You know how often do we usethe meetings as the time when we
actually decide what it iswe're going to talk about, and I
think even a brief agenda a fewminutes before the meeting
means that for anybody butparticularly introverts, they've
(30:05):
got more time to reflect onwhat they might want to say.
So you've given them more of anopportunity.
But I think you've also got toslow the conversation down to
allow them to fully expressthemselves, and I think maybe
even inviting them to lead on aparticular point helps them to
become more part of theconversation helps them to
(30:26):
become more part of theconversation.
Tim (30:27):
Yeah, and again, that's part of from a leader
perspective, knowing who you'releading, knowing what's going to
help and make them successfuland putting them in those
positions so that they can besuccessful is a critical piece.
Richard (30:45):
Yeah, so being as inclusive as you can be, because
otherwise, in any environment,but particularly online,
extroverts are going to dominate, and particularly when the
conversations are becoming verytransactional.
It's about exchanginginformation.
Things tend to speed up.
Tim (31:01):
Yeah, With me not teaching anymore.
I've been telling people overthe last month or two I I really
enjoy doing these, these things, but what I miss is that
personal interaction.
I I miss the in-person.
I miss the shaking somebody'shand or sitting down across from
somebody or next to somebody,you know, just having a
conversation about whatever itis.
(31:22):
And I was at a conference, youknow last week and how much more
invigorated I was being thereand when I left, as opposed to
again.
I really do enjoy this, but Imiss that personal thing.
Richard (31:38):
Yeah, I mean, it's a natural human experience, isn't
it, to be physically aroundother people.
So you know, we're putting anobstacle in the way of that when
we operate in this way.
Tim (31:52):
And I think you know, as I look at the other three pillars
of charisma, and especially nowwith technology and society,
where everybody's talking aboutAI and nobody really has a true
understanding I mean, if youthink about it, five years ago
we weren't really talking aboutAI.
And now all the tools that wehave and the power that AI has,
(32:15):
and when nobody really knowswhat is coming next to me, I
think we've kind of lost thewhole idea that it doesn't
matter.
Everything is about personalconnection.
Everything is about personalconnection.
Everything is about personalrelationships.
It doesn't matter what industryyou're in.
If you don't know how tocommunicate with people and
build personal relationships,you're not going to be
(32:35):
successful, the organization isnot going to be successful.
And that kind of goes to thethird pillar of charisma and the
warmth and connecting throughcare, Because if you don't know
who they are, again it comesback to what you said it's
transactional, it's nottransformational.
Richard (32:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So you've got to understand theindividual that you're with, to
know what it is that is mostlikely to give them what they
need to feel safe and reassured.
And I think again, look backthrough history.
You think about the Luddites inEngland into the 17th, 18th
century, smashing up machinerybecause they thought they would
(33:16):
take their jobs.
It's always been the case thatpeople have had this fear that
it's going to take away people'sjobs.
So, actually, people adapt, andthe thing that is consistent
throughout time is it's ourinterpersonal skills that make
all the difference, and that'swhat we need to focus on.
And in the future, that's wherethe jobs will be offering those
(33:39):
things that AI will never beable to offer Ever.
Tim (33:43):
And it's funny because AI, I use chat GPT for a number of
things.
It's, it's.
I mean it's it's.
They're great tools, theyreally are great tools, but I
don't think we should be relyingon them.
And I put a prompt in to chatGPT.
It basically said through allof our chats, describe me.
(34:04):
And it spit something out thatI thought was was somewhat
accurate, but but really kind offunny.
And you know, I put it out tosome people in my network and
they said, yeah, they're righthere, they're right here.
I would never have said thatabout you, but it's actually
correct.
And it's funny that I don't seemyself that way, but other
(34:29):
people see you that way and justsome of those inputs that we've
done, that the machine learningcan do that.
Richard (34:42):
It's still got a way to go.
I'm not sure it'll entirelybridge the gap, but it is
enormously powerful.
So I supervise a few therapistsand I've got one therapist who
I supervise and he uses AI.
When he's got a challenge witha client he says well, you know,
this is the situation, what doyou think?
And actually he says he's foundit really useful, not as a
(35:05):
substitute for what he does, butas an accompaniment and just
another option for bouncingideas off.
So you know, I think there isthe possibility for sort of a
hybrid approach.
It's not sort of one or theother.
But even still, I don't care howgood it gets, it's not going to
(35:28):
replace meeting somebodysitting, I don't think, shaking
their hand it's just no, no, no,no, because you know
essentially, you know, howevermuch we sort of um build
ourselves that we're effectivelysophisticated animals yeah and
like other animals, we've gotbasic requirements that we need
(35:49):
to maintain well-being andequilibrium, and one of those is
physical human contact.
Tim (35:56):
Right.
Richard (35:58):
We need that and if we don't have that over extended
periods, then actually we startto get out of balance and I
think you know again, that's youknow.
Going back to what we spokeabout earlier in terms of the
younger generation, I thinkwe're increasingly seeing this
that people aren't formulatinglong-term relationships, there's
more and more single people.
All these things inevitablyhave a bearing upon people's
(36:20):
mental health.
Tim (36:25):
So in South Africa and in the United Kingdom, are any of
these things being talked aboutor taught in in in schools, in
public education or anythinglike that?
Because at least over here wedon't talk about it at all?
I mean, it's, yeah, it's don'teven bring it up because we're
so focused on test scores, we'reso focused on on those all
(36:45):
these other things that maybethey're important, maybe they're
not, but we're missing these,these critical skills.
Richard (36:52):
Yeah, well, I think it's probably the same in the UK
and South Africa to some degree.
I think we're still very muchattached to that Victorian
curriculum.
It's about test results, it'sabout formal subjects, and
there'll always be a place forthose, I'm sure.
But there is a change in thetide though.
(37:13):
There is more work that's beendone around things like
mindfulness and well-being, um,and I guess the other thing
that's happening is that a lotof schools are bringing in
charters that say right, we, we,we, don't allow any any um
phones in in the school.
We are encouraging parents tosign up to the pledge that
actually they will limit theamount of screen time that their
(37:33):
children have.
So they can't enforce that, butthey are trying to get parents
to buy into, and a lot ofparents are.
So things are changing, I think, I think, but we are still
heavily attached to that oldsort of antiquated um school
curriculum that you might haveeven seen 100 years ago.
Tim (37:48):
Yeah, yeah, what you know, my last year or so of teaching
I've, what I found was I Icouldn't really even teach the
subject matter very well,because it wouldn't, wouldn't
really matter, because if theycan't communicate, if they can't
go out and and just holdcommerce you know adult
professional conversations yeah,it doesn't really matter.
(38:09):
So so we focus a lot, a lot onthose things.
Richard (38:12):
Yeah, so those foundation skills are missing,
then you know it completelyundermines everything else
you're trying to do, doesn't ityeah?
Tim (38:18):
Exactly, Exactly so.
So what about storytelling?
I mean, I think over the lastfew years, I think the whole
idea of storytelling has hasreally come, has really kind of
blossomed, and a lot of thepeople that I talk with think
that there's got to be somegrand story of their life.
But I tell them it's not.
(38:40):
It doesn't have to be a grand,it's just your story, it's your
life, it's your experiences.
You went to the grocery store,you got a flat tire and you, you
know, you fixed flat tire, butyou had a conversation with
somebody who's a connection overhere.
I mean, that's how it's not.
(39:00):
It doesn't have to be a anin-depth, you know, Academy
award winning story, it's just anormal everyday life.
Richard (39:05):
Yeah, yeah, and I think again, it's about.
It's about being authentic andbeing your true self, isn't it?
And I think, a lot of the time,people don't share stories
about themselves because theydiscount them.
It's not other peoplediscounting those stories, it's
them discounting them.
And I think there's a lot to besaid for people owning their
stories, whether it's their lifestory, whether it's the story
(39:26):
of what happened to them thatday, but owning that stuff and
if you think about you know someof the more famous people that
we regard as being charismatic,they have a story and it's not
always a linear story.
It's like things go wrong, butactually they're often stories
about redemption, aboutresilience, and actually that
not only inspires other people,but it's also more relatable for
(39:49):
other people.
People think, well, I've nothad that, but I's also more
relatable for other people.
People think, well, I've nothad that, but I've had other
things happen, and so suddenly,even if we're very successful,
they think, well, actually,maybe you are a bit like me,
maybe I can relate to you andtalk to you about things that
are important to me, that arehappening for me, and I think
that that's important and youknow, you see this even to this
day, within the realm ofleadership, that leaders think
(40:10):
they've got to presentthemselves as being perfect.
They've got to presentthemselves as knowing everything
.
And actually, number one it'snot true.
And number two it puts you on apedestal.
It means other people arefrightened.
People are frightened to talkabout what's really going on.
Tim (40:23):
Yeah, and they're just normal people.
And they're just normal peopleand that's so in the space that
one of my previous lives,professional lives.
You know a lot of professionalathletes, a lot of those types
(40:44):
of things, and people would sayare you getting autographs?
I said no, they're just normalpeople.
They're normal people like youand me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So one, that's my job.
It's not appropriate.
Number two, when they're notover here doing their sports,
they just want to be left alone.
They just want to go live theirlife.
They want to have a wife, theywant to have kids, they want to
(41:15):
go to the so much better thaneverybody else.
Okay, they've got a veryspecial talent.
I'm not saying anything otherthan that They've got a very
special talent, but they're nodifferent than you and me.
They really aren't, reallyaren't.
(41:36):
And you know, there was a time Iwas with my family and we
stopped by a college that I wentto that wanted to go in the
bookstore and a famousprofessional athlete was in
there.
And I'm just going on about mybusiness and one of my daughters
says, oh, it's so-and-so.
I said yeah, and she said can Igo talk to him?
I said, well, I wish that youwouldn't, but you can if you
want.
I mean, she, she was a younggirl which is very different
than than me, and I said but ifhe, if he says no, if he's with
(41:58):
his family, you gotta leave himalone.
And he, he was actually very,very kind, very, very um
appreciative, and when she cameback she asked why I didn't do
it and she kind of learnedbecause you know, the kids kind
of grew up in that area that youknow again, they're not that.
Yes, they're special becausethey've got a great talent and
(42:21):
they make a lot of money, butthey're just normal people.
And I think that the generalpopulation, when it comes to
leaders, whether it's athletes,whether it's fortune 500 ceos,
whatever it is they they tend toput these people on pedestals
and they don't even want to beon that pedestal, but it's it's
(42:42):
a lot of you know, having workedwith some of these types of
it's a lot of pressure to carryto be that yeah, that uh
perceived person all the time.
Richard (42:50):
But it's also also quite lonely, because it means
actually, when you've got yourown challenges, if that's what
people expect from you, it'svery difficult to then say
actually I'm struggling withthis.
Tim (43:01):
And when they do, they have a feeling that people think
less of them, and most of thetime that's not true either.
They're saying, wow, I can, hehas, he or she has those issues,
what, what can we do to helpthem?
Richard (43:20):
and and so it's kind of the exact, the exact opposite,
exactly.
But unfortunately a lot of thetime because there are those
kind of hesitancies that issuesthat could be addressed
relatively easily become biggerthings.
And you know, we see it sooften that way in the news with
celebrities that it's only whenthe wheels really come off that
the issues become apparent.
And a lot of times it's becausethey feel this barrier.
(43:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Tim (43:47):
We had a young man, high-profile athlete, getting
ready to be drafted in the NFL,committed suicide because he was
, you know.
He got himself in some troubleand apparently that was his only
way out of it.
And that's part of the problemAgain, you know, with going back
(44:11):
to the whole idea of therapyand being able to uh talk things
through and and and, uh figure,figure things out, and that's
kind of it's, it's about normal,normalize the experiences in it
, whether it's charisma whetherit's mental.
(44:31):
So you're not the only personthat's felt like that.
Right, right, it's sad.
I think you know I don't wantto go too far down this road,
but the mental health systemhere in the United States is
completely broke.
We don't have nearly enoughtherapists.
We don't have.
We've come a long way in thecase of some of these things,
but we don't have the resourcesto truly help some of these
people.
Richard (44:53):
Yeah, yeah, and it's.
You know it's the same.
It's the same in the uk, Ithink there's there's more
people that are open toreceiving therapy than certainly
when I first started as atherapist, but the resources
aren't available.
You know, it's a it's aminefield as well, because
there's no government registeredaccreditation.
So you know, pretty muchanybody can set themselves up as
a therapist and, you know,cause all kinds of damage.
Tim (45:12):
Yeah, yeah, no, oh well, I it's.
All we can do is encouragepeople to to be open and and and
and share and and help guidethem in the right direction.
I guess, yeah, but if for ayoung person, what would you say
(45:32):
would be the one thing thatthey should do to start building
charisma, to start buildingthose communication and
leadership skills that theytruly need?
Richard (45:45):
Yeah.
So I think one of the biggestthings that you can do is start
to develop and demonstratecuriosity for other people.
So I think you know, I rememberback to sort of being a
teenager and being quiteidealistic and quite firm in my
views about things.
And actually, you know, as yougo through life you hopefully
become more flexible.
(46:06):
As you, you know, you have yourown challenges.
You come into contact withdifferent types of people and I
think one way of fast, of fasttracking that is to show
curiosity for people's positions.
Ask lots of open-ended questions.
Create space for people toelaborate on what they say.
Don't just, don't just respondthe first thing they say.
Give them space to add to thatand actually what you might find
(46:26):
is that you develop moreempathy for people's positions.
It might even be that itchallenges some of your views
about your own life and the waythat things should operate.
So that's the biggest thing youcan do.
You know, a lot of the timewhen we're we're we're we're
meeting people, we feel it'salmost like we've got to put on
a performance.
We've got to come out with lotsof interesting things to say.
But actually interesting thingsflow from asking questions, not
(46:47):
from putting on a performancethat's, that's true.
Tim (46:51):
It's it's because, for the most part, people are surface
level people.
It's when when they start um,when they can ask those deeper
questions, those meaningfulquestions, that's when when
things really start to start tocome out.
But trying to get, trying toget young, younger people to
understand that and to trulythink about what they want to
(47:16):
know, again, yeah, you gottaknow first off who you are and
and do some research into the,into these other things before
you just go out there and startasking, you know, superficial
questions.
So that's, that's a, that's aprocess, but it's, it's not hard
to do.
Anybody can, can do this if youjust spend, spend a little bit
(47:37):
of time it exactly whateversomebody might say.
Richard (47:41):
You know even it's talking about their weekend.
You know we tend to latch on tothe facts of what they did at
the weekend, but ask them whatthat means.
To what was that like?
What did you enjoy about that?
Yeah, you seem really excited.
What did you enjoy about that?
You seem really excited whenyou're talking about that.
Getting people to tap into theemotions of whatever it is
they're telling you deepens theconnection.
Really, it helps you tounderstand why people do what
(48:05):
they do.
Tim (48:05):
Well, Richard, thank you so much for your time today.
Where can people find you if?
Richard (48:11):
they want to work with you and buy your book.
So if you want to find out moreabout me, you can find me on
LinkedIn.
So it's Richard Reid, spelledR-E-I-D, or you can go to my
website, which iswwwrichard-reidcom.
Awesome.
Tim (48:24):
Well again, richard, thank you so much for spending some
time with us, my pleasure.
You so much for for spendingsome time with us my pleasure
again, really good actionableadvice and um I I really hope
people go and and and read buyyour book and read it.
It's, it's an easy read um andthank you one more thing when I,
when I get a book, I don't Idon't start at chapter one and
(48:45):
read all the way through.
I I open it up, I look at thetable of contents oh, this looks
like a good chapter, and I readit.
Then I bounce back and forthand it's an easy read.
It's an easy read.
Lots of good tips in there,lots of good strategies.
So go buy the book and read it.
But again, richard, thank youso much for spending time with
(49:06):
me.
Richard (49:06):
Thank you, tim, really appreciate it.
Tim (49:09):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free e-book Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theFormula for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
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