March 10, 2025 • 51 mins
Get ready for an incredible conversation with Juanita Wheeler, a powerhouse in public speaking coaching and the CEO of TEDx Brisbane. With over 100 TEDx speakers coached, Juanita has mastered the art of helping speakers communicate effectively and own their awesome on stage.
In this episode, we dive deep into:
- Overcoming the Fear of Public Speaking – Why fear of judgment holds us back and how to shift your mindset.
- The Neuroscience of Persuasion – How behavioral science shapes effective communication.
- Preparation & Practice – Why stagecraft is the last five meters of a hundred-meter race.
- Authenticity Over Performance – Why outdated presentation techniques fail and how to engage your audience naturally.
- Tailoring Your Message – Content is king, but it must be audience-specific and strategically crafted.
- Owning Your Unique Voice – The power of being direct, honest, and confident when speaking.
Juanita shares hard-hitting advice on how to turn speaking anxiety into a strength and how strategic objectives—not just awareness—drive real impact. Whether you're a seasoned speaker or just starting, this episode will transform how you see public speaking!
📣 Ready to become a more powerful communicator? Tune in now!
Resources & Links:
Website - http://fullandfrank.com/tools
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/juanitawheeler/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/fullandfrank
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/fullandfrank/
🚀 Want to become a more confident and impactful communicator? Visit TimNewmanSpeaks.com for free resources and coaching opportunities!
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
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Episode Transcript
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Tim (00:08):
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that's
here to help you unlock thepower of effective public
speaking.
I'm your host, tim Newman, andI'm excited to take you on a
journey to become a better, moreconfident communicator.
Juanita Wheeler has coachedover 100 TEDx speakers, in
addition to CEOs, entrepreneurs,authors, researchers and
changemakers to deliverpresentations worthy of their
(00:30):
great ideas.
Juanita is a public speakingcoach, speech writer, the CEO
and head of curation at TEDxBrisbane, and the founder of
Full and Frank.
She has over two decades ofspeaking experience, is an
adjunct lecturer at theUniversity of Queensland and is
a global fellow with theAtlantic Fellows, based out of
Oxford University.
(00:50):
Juanita has three master'sdegrees two in business and one
in social change leadership.
Juanita, welcome to Speakingwith Confidence.
I'm really excited to talk toyou today.
You know, I think you and I are, you know, built the same way.
We think the same way and ourapproaches, I think, are very,
very similar.
So welcome to Speaking withConfidence podcast.
Juanita (01:12):
Thank you so much, tim.
I absolutely agree, and it is adelight to be here.
Tim (01:18):
One of the things that really intrigued me about you is
you know you're the CEO of TEDxBrisbane, and how did that come
about and what does thatactually mean?
Because you know, I thinkeverybody knows TED and TEDx and
they see these things, but Idon't think they really truly
understand how it works or howit happens.
So how did you get to beinvolved in this?
Juanita (01:41):
Well, when it first started, I was just like
everybody else who loves tedtalks.
I loved them.
I watched them online.
Uh, they were a reallyimportant part of my day or my
week.
I could get gems of wisdom frompeople who were experts or had
lots of experience in a reallyshort and digestible amount of
time because I was a busy person.
So they were great, uh, and Iobviously talked about them a
(02:03):
lot more than I had realized Idid.
Because one day when I was doingmy first master's, one of my
fellow students said to me youknow those talks you're always
talking about.
Yes.
She said well, I hear there'sgoing to be a local event here
in Brisbane, a small one.
It's going to be at South BankTEDx South Bank Women.
There are only a hundredtickets.
You know you have to apply tobe in the audience.
(02:26):
Shall we do it?
And I'm like yes.
So I applied and I was luckyenough to be offered one of the
spots in the audience.
It was.
It was just the time was gettingclose that I actually started
to get a little anxious about it, because I'm like this is a bit
high risk, because I love TEDtalks, and what if I go to this
local thing and it's a bitho-hum.
(02:46):
Is that going to diminish mylove of TED in any way?
But I really shouldn't haveworried.
It was amazing.
I say to people when they askabout our events, I said if
watching a TED Talk is likewatching a really amazing music
video, then coming to our eventslive is like going to a rock
show.
That's the difference.
So I loved it in the audienceand actually about six to eight
(03:12):
weeks later there was aconfluence of a number of
factors, but that was one ofthem I quit my job in corporate
and left and went wow, thosepeople are inspiring and they're
doing these incredible thingswith their lives.
I don't want to sit in theaudience and watch that person.
I want to be that person who isdoing bold and audacious things
in the area where they're anexpert.
So the second year they asked meto come back as a volunteer
(03:36):
because I'd stayed in touch.
It's a volunteer-runorganization at the TEDx level,
so I'm like, absolutely I'd loveto volunteer.
So that was the next year andthen the year after, they
actually asked me to come andspeak.
So in 2014, so a decade ago Igave my own TEDx talk, which was
based on the topic I wasworking, the space I was working
(03:56):
in at the time, which was aboutcharity and the way that
charities are funded.
And then the person who ran theTEDx and we'd grown to know
each other and work each otherthrough volunteering and
speaking um called me up andsaid she had this amazing career
opportunity to do a contractjob in London working, uh, for
(04:17):
Richard Branson which obviouslyyou say.
You say yes to that right umsaid you know, we had a team
meeting and said you're theperson that we want to take over
and run it.
So I did.
2016 was my first event andshortly after that, before our
2017 event, we got the titlebump to a citywide license and
(04:40):
became TEDxBrisbane, which isvery exciting, and we've been
running it ever since.
Tim (04:46):
That's an amazing story, you know.
Again, I don't think peopleunderstand.
I didn't know until TalkMe thatit's a volunteer organization
and it's pretty much volunteersthat do everything and plan
everything.
And so you started this, butyou got on stage.
Did you have a fear of publicspeaking, or do you have a fear
(05:10):
of public speaking?
And what was that process likein preparing to do a TEDx for
you?
Juanita (05:16):
Well, the TEDx talk was a fair way down my public
speaking journey, but when Ifirst started I absolutely had a
fear of public speaking, and Istill.
Public speaking is not myfavorite thing.
Um, I'm a screaming introvert.
So if you think of like theintrovert extrovert spectrum,
I'm like way down this end ofthe introvert.
Um.
So and people are often shockedwhen I tell them that, or they
(05:40):
don't believe me I'm like no,because this is many years of
skill building in the making.
I've worked on it and learnedthe skills.
So you don't believe me.
I'm like no, because this ismany years of skill building in
the making.
I've worked on it and learnedthe skills.
So you don't feel like I'm anintrovert, but I am and it just
goes to show.
Sometimes people will believeyou know the myth that only
extroverts make great speakersand nothing could be further
than the truth.
You know public speaking areskills.
(06:01):
It's like plumbing.
You know, you learn how to doit, you practice a lot and the
more years of experience youhave, the better you get Public
speaking just the same.
So my situation was that I wasmy preferred mode and it's part
of why speech writing is alsostill something that I do.
A lot of is in text.
I love writing and articulatingmy ideas that way, but what I
(06:25):
was finding in my career was Iwould put together really quite
kick-ass and compellingproposals in writing and send
them by emails and they justweren't getting read.
Newsflash not everyone likesreading documents, no matter how
fantastic they are.
And then I would go along to ameeting or I would see people in
(06:46):
the hall and there would besomebody who would be prepared
to get up and champion theiridea verbally and say it in a
quite compelling manner.
And even if that idea was notas good as the one I had
comprehensively researched andput in writing, there was an
engagement factor.
You know, they were championingtheir idea, they were prepared
(07:07):
to step up and do it.
And I watched time and timeagain those ideas getting up and
you know it frustrated me and I, you know, whinged about it for
you know a nanosecond and thenrealized this is not helping me.
So I went, okay, well, I needto learn how to do this as an
introvert, as somebody whodoesn't have this skill, I
wasn't born with it and wentokay, cool, so there's got to be
(07:29):
a way that people are persuaded, because I didn't just want to
flap my gums, I actually wantedto get the outcome if I was
going to put in the work oflearning how to speak well.
So I did all the research.
You know, I skipped all theresearch about being in.
I didn't want to be an actor,so I didn't need the drama
lessons.
I didn't need what to do withyour hands or how to vocally
(07:50):
modulate.
That wasn't what I was lookingfor.
I was looking for, tell me, theneuroscience.
So I was looking into theneuroscience.
I was looking into behavioralpersuasion theories.
I looked into the neuroeconomics, the science of what makes
people make decisions and sayyes and then used myself as the
guinea pig to say okay, which ofthese strategies?
(08:13):
How do I apply them to publicspeaking?
Because the speaking that I'minterested in, the speaking that
I coach people in, is strategic, persuasive speaking.
So what is going to getsomebody to say yes?
So if you want to be a greatspeaker who gives really great
and entertaining wedding toasts,that's superb.
(08:36):
You don't need me.
That's not my area of expertise.
I am very much about.
Let's sit down before you evertalk and work out what is your
target audience, what do youneed them to say yes to what
will convince them.
And now let's craft that tomake them say yes.
You know, I the flapping thegun thing.
There are people who can helpyou with that.
Tim (08:58):
That's not my area of expertise you know, I I love
that because that's my exactanswer and I'm so I'm going to
take your words and I'm justgoing to start saying that exact
same thing.
You know, you and I have talkedabout this a little bit.
You know, I think, the fear ofpublic speaking.
I mean when you talk aboutpublic speaking, just all of a
sudden, before they even thinkabout it, all of a sudden, you
(09:20):
know, the blood pressure goes up, face turns red and, oh my gosh
, their stomach gets upset, allthese types of things.
And the reality is we do publicspeaking all the time, every
day.
Like you said earlier before westarted recording, public
speaking starts when you walkoutside your house 100%.
Juanita (09:42):
I say it to people all the time.
They're like I could never dopublic speaking.
I'm like do you ever leave yourhouse?
A hundred percent.
I say it to people all the time.
They're like I could neverpublic.
You know, I could never dopublic speaking.
I'm like do you ever leave yourhouse and speak to another
human?
They're like, yes.
I'm like, well, I don't knowhow to tell you this, but you're
already public speaking, sothat's fine.
The public speaking you'reprobably doing is flapping your
gums.
Sure, but let's now look, ifyou want to do public speaking
(10:07):
strategically to persuade people, so you can champion your ideas
and get them to say yes, andthese are just skills.
Tim (10:10):
I can teach you how to do them.
Um, I say, I say it's not hard,it's not rocket science, it's
not rocket science, butsometimes it is hard.
It is hard work to, becauseit's a change in mindset.
We have to think a little bitdifferently about how we're
communicating, right, you know?
Because think about it fromthis perspective and I've used
this example a couple times overthe last three or four days
(10:31):
when you go to a restaurant andthe waiter or waitress comes up
to you and asks you what youwant, how are you going to
respond?
There are some people that Iknow that say, well, can I have
this, or I want this?
Right, when you say, can I havethis?
Well, you're asking thempermission to do something.
But when you tell them this iswhat I want, the whole tone or
(10:53):
attitude of the conversationchanges.
Right, you're not asking forpermission, you're saying this
is what I would like from you,and so that in and of itself, is
a mindset shift.
Juanita (11:29):
No-transcript yes, and I think the mind shift set shift
is is so important.
One of the things that I'velearned, uh, from using myself
for many decades as a guinea pigand someone who was a nervous
and anxious speaker and alsocoaching over 100 TEDx speakers
(11:54):
now, many of whom would say thatthey are extraordinarily
nervous and anxious speakers,particularly when you're playing
at that level is that you needto rethink how you think about
fear and anxious speakers,particularly when you're playing
at that level is that you needto rethink how you think about
fear.
So what has become anabsolutely foundational pillar
of the coaching and the speakercoaching and strategy work that
(12:18):
I do is, you know, put into ashort catchphrase is own your
awesome.
So you know, I'm always tellingpeople and we do this work at
the start, before we starttalking about a script or what
your strategic objective is orall of those things that come
before you ever talk aboutstagecraft is that people need
(12:38):
to be prepared to own theirawesome.
And that's usually where, if weget that right at the very
beginning and we do thattransformative piece of work,
then all of the other thingsbecome easier, dramatically
easier learnt over 20 years andyou know all these speakers is
when people say they're afraidof public speaking.
(13:06):
When I used to say I'm afraid Ihave a fear of public speaking,
you're not afraid of publicspeaking.
I've yet to find somebody thatis actually legitimately afraid
of public speaking.
What they're describing whenthey're talking about, you know,
I'm afraid I might look.
You know I might forget mywords.
I'm afraid that I won't get onthe stage.
I'm afraid I'll fall down.
You know I might forget mywords.
(13:27):
I'm afraid that I won't get onthe stage.
I'm afraid I'll fall down.
You know, on the way up tostage which if that's going to
happen to anyone, it's going todo me, because I'm a screaming
klutz.
If I make it actually to thestage in the microphone, half
the work is done.
But what they're actually afraidof is not that they're afraid
of you know a range of things.
They're afraid of a range ofthings.
They're afraid of beingembarrassed in front of
respected peers and colleagues.
They're afraid that if they doit and they in their mind fail,
(13:52):
then it will just affirm any badthing that has ever been said
to them by a partner, a familymember, a negative boss.
They're afraid that they'll doit and they'll discover that my
idea is not as good as I thinkit is, because someone will
naysay it.
You know these are all verydifferent fears, um, but what
(14:14):
they are, you know, I'm afraidthat people will think I'm
unattractive or focus on my bodytype, or I'm afraid that I'm
afraid that, and it's allexternal judging factors almost
always, um and so when we sitdown and do the work and go,
look, when you say you're afraidof public speaking, and we sit
down and do that transformativepiece that goes cool, and then
(14:36):
we realize you're afraid by ofbeing judged by this person,
this person and I'm like usuallyit'll start with cool they're
going to think that, let them,we're not going to care, we're
just going to let them.
But now let's think about.
You know, you'll think aboutwhat if everything goes wrong?
And we do that with the same.
What if everything goes right?
What if everything goes right?
(14:57):
And why are you letting someexternal person judge you?
What if you trip over?
You know what if this happens?
What if this happens?
But your idea is still fabulousand you pick yourself up and
you do it really well, and thenwe list all the things that
could go wrong, like some peopleoften will say, one of their
biggest fears is they'll forgettheir lines.
I'm like awesome, you've justmade my day, because that is a
(15:19):
hundred percent in your control.
So what we do with your script,how many hours you put into it
before the event, whether or notyou set your alarm to get up
one hour earlier for 30 daysbeforehand to memorize that
thing, that is 100% in yourcontrol.
So we do the work.
That mindset piece first,because every single thing that
(15:42):
comes after is made easier onceyou address this perception that
their fear is actually ofpublic speaking, as opposed to
fears of something else thatthey just conveniently label
because that's what society doesas a fear of public speaking.
Tim (16:00):
Exactly, and would you say that that is the biggest mistake
that people make in theirpreparation Is the mislabeling
of their fears?
Not being in the right mindset,would say that's, that's the
(16:23):
the biggest problem I think it's.
Juanita (16:25):
I think there is no one biggest problem.
I think public speakers, likehumans are.
Absolutely every single one isunique and different.
So what somebody?
You know, some people maylegitimately have no fear of
public speaking and frankly,that's a problem.
Um, because they're cocky andthey're egotistical and they've
skated by and charisma all theirlives so they're not putting in
(16:47):
the work.
You know, it's the.
I'll just slap together apowerpoint and jump up on stage
and I'll think about it the daybefore what I'm going to say um
oh um.
You know that's.
That's a totally differentproblem, but it is a it's a
problem.
Some people may not, may havereally great self so they don't
have fear per se, but maybe theyhaven't put in the work.
(17:10):
So I think there are differentfears, different problems, but I
think the biggest ones that Isee recurring, that you could
kind of put into groups.
One is definitely having thewrong mindset, which is either
I'm not going to put in theeffort because I'm just going to
dial this in, or I have a fearof public speaking, which
(17:32):
actually is a fear of somethingelse, and as soon as you own it
and understand it, we can comeup with a strategy about whether
that's just let them and we'rejust going to let them, or cool.
Here are the things you'reworried about.
Let's write down every singleone of them and then come up for
a strategy to mitigate that.
So that's, you know, fears, um,an absence of planning for when
(17:52):
, things, what you know,planning and preparation to make
sure that whatever you'reworried about let's not just let
that fester in the back of yourmind.
Let's come up with a plan forevery single thing that could go
wrong, down to like zombieapocalypse.
Let's have a strategy, becausethen it's a strategy, it's a
plan, you know what you're goingto do, so it's not taking up
(18:15):
free rent in your brain whereyou could otherwise be focusing
on preparing for your talk.
I think the other thing is justnot putting in the work.
That is a huge problem.
If you see really lacklusterpublic speaking.
It's almost always an absenceof effort.
Um, the people who you knowevery year, for 10x, I will
invariably get at least oneperson who is having a meltdown,
(18:38):
you know, hyperventilating intoa brown bag or locking
themselves in a toilet stoolsaying I can't possibly come out
True story, and I willinvariably have to get them from
that stage to the stage and youknow there is no common
denominator about howexperienced that speaker is.
By the way, sometimes that's afirst time speaker, though
(18:59):
that's far less likely.
The people who it most often isis a person who has done lots
of talking before, thought theycould dial this in and it'd be
like every other talk, didn'tput in the rehearsal time,
didn't put in the prep time, andthe one comment that happens
every single time, regardless ofwho this person is, whether
(19:20):
they've spoken at 2 000 events,events or 10, is I should have
rehearsed more.
I should have prepared more.
Tim (19:29):
So what's the difference between preparing for a TED Talk
as opposed to like a regularpresentation?
Obviously watching them,they're different, but what's
the difference in thepreparation?
Juanita (19:42):
Well they can be incredibly different.
The first thing that I wouldsay in a single word when people
ask me, that is the stakes.
That's, that's the difference.
Um, and so, whether it, youknow, we have things where a
talk might.
It doesn't have to be on a 10xstage.
But if you get invited to give atalk and you know that's your
target audience there, orthere's somebody in there who
(20:04):
can, you know, green light yourfunding for something or come on
board as an angel investor orchange a piece of legislation,
or you know.
You know Oprah is not a TEDxtalk, but if you got invited to
go and speak with Oprah, youknow the stakes are enormous.
So the stakes should directlyreflect how much preparation you
(20:24):
put into it, how much effortyou put in it, how strategic you
become.
That's totally different ifyou're giving a talk at a local
event and there is a smallnumber of your target audience
there that could say yes to whatyour strategic objective is.
And, by the way, if there isnone of your target audience
(20:45):
there, why are you even?
speaking at the event go dosomething else, you know, if
your people aren't there withthe power and authority to say
yes to your strategic objectiveand that doesn't matter, whether
it's about buying a product,buying a service, investing in
your company, changinglegislation, it doesn't matter
It- doesn't matter but what isyour strategic objective?
(21:07):
If they're not in that room, whyare you?
But if it's low stakes, thenyou know, maybe a little bit
less preparation is fine, but assoon as you get to something
that is high stakes.
So if it's a pitch, and you'repitching to people who could
give you a million dollars andchange the trajectory of your
company, that's big stakes Putin 100 hours.
If it's a TEDx talk, you know,and that has the potential to
(21:29):
consolidate your position as anexpert in this particular space,
you know that's game changingAt least 100 hours worth of
effort.
If you're not interested inputting in 100 hours worth of
work into it, you know you don'twant to come and talk to me.
I'm not your person BecauseI'll just be very frank with you
and say, yeah, no, you knowyou're not serious, you didn't
(21:54):
come to play, go find somebodyelse.
So really the difference betweenthat is stakes and, uh, the
other thing is really important,uh, in that kind of category,
is a signature keynote.
So I work with people as wellwho aren't doing a tedx yet, or
maybe they have done one, butthey they want to develop, uh,
they're at that stage in theirbusiness where they really want
(22:14):
to consolidate their standing asan expert in this space.
Maybe they're looking to thenlaunch a book, launch a podcast,
you know, really be the go-toperson in that, and so they want
to put in the effort to developthat signature keynote that
they can go and deliver prestigekeynotes and at different
conferences on differentcontinents and be the go-to
(22:35):
person for this.
That's a game-changing thingYou're looking to really
consolidate so that again, highstakes, put in the effort and
get it right.
So one of the best things aboutthose people, for example, who
I've worked on the TEDx talks orthe keynotes with, I will then
later see, you know, chapters inbooks or I will see them speak
(22:55):
on you know chapters in books orI will see them speak on a
radio interview or in a podcastand they will use lines and
sections directly from theirtalk or their signature keynote,
because I never write and neverwork with a speaker with one
talk in mind, like ever.
We work out what is the script,and I section the scripts as we
(23:18):
work through them like this is asection about xyz, this is the
section about xyz.
So once they've memorized andlearned them, they've got them
for life.
Anytime they get asked aquestion about that, anytime
they're preparing another talk,and they just you know, I tell
them, think of it as, uh,ingredients in your pantry.
You can cook a whole range ofdifferent recipes for that,
(23:40):
whether it's a snack or a reallyhuge and elaborate meal, and so
many different meals based onthese ingredients, and then
think of each individual talk asa different recipe.
So that's the way I do it,because I don't ever like people
to put in time and effort onthat kind of scale that they
can't reuse over and over againfor the rest of their life.
Tim (24:06):
So that piece is really interesting to me, as you're
preparing for that.
It's being able to use that inmultiple different settings, and
I like that.
But what I really like is thewhole idea of preparation, for
for me, research and preparationjust like you it's key.
(24:27):
It's key to everything that wedo.
You know if, if you're notgoing to do the work, why are
you, why are you even botheringto to to put your name in for
something?
Juanita (24:37):
So I, so I think people have to understand that to be
good at anything, you have toprepare and you have to practice
over and over and over again100% and I think don't get me
wrong I have clients thatoriginally came on board with me
as what I call SOS clients,people I've known professionally
(24:59):
, who will leave it to the lastminute maybe it's a week out and
will say, oh my gosh, I havethis event.
I promised to speak at it agesago.
Life happened, work happened.
I haven't done a single thingor I've got a really dodgy first
draft.
I only have this much budget.
I can buy three hours of yourtime.
Can you do what you can and,and if I can, I can fit it in?
(25:21):
I I usually will, particularlyif I can.
I know them and I know they're.
You know they're nothalf-assing it, but you know
life has happened, um, and you,you give them your time and you
elevate it, but at the same time, you're're like, just so you
know, this is the SOS version,with the time you have available
, but you should come and learnhow to do all of this properly.
(25:43):
And it's usually very funnybecause I think it's hilarious
the people who usually engage methis way.
They're like one of them, jodieMcDowell.
She's actually one of thetestimonial stories on my site.
She was like I'm a week out andshe's a one of the testimonial
stories on my site.
She was like I'm I'm a week outand she's a highly experienced
ceo and she's done lots ofpublic speaking, but she just
hadn't done it in a little while.
I mean, she's a ludicrouslyconfident woman and she just
(26:06):
said, at this point in time, I'drather quit my job than do this
big in a week, which you know,I get it was tongue-in-cheek,
but it shows the the level of,oh, you know, and this is a
highly, highly experienced andcompetent woman.
And I'm like, yeah, cool, sendit to me and I'll spend a few
hours on it.
But she's like I'm never publicspeaking again after this.
(26:26):
This is just a one and done,because I'm talking to her about
hey, I'm just noting this, thiswill be going to your section
for the future anytime youanswer this.
Let's get it right.
So anytime you get thisquestion, we'll do it.
She's like you don't have toworry about that because I'm
never, ever speaking again.
I'm like mm-hmm, I'm like justletting you know, jodie, 100% of
(26:48):
people who come to me in thisway say this is the only time
I'm ever going to do this andI'm never doing it again.
And currently it has 100% valuerate in that they come back to
me and as soon as they know howto do it and can see that it
will work, then they're like, ohmy gosh, I need to go and get
more speaking gigs.
She's like, no, no, not goingto happen.
And uh, the message I got fromher after she'd walked off stage
, she said it was like the mostamazing thing.
(27:09):
She said I walked off stage andI just wanted to turn around
like it was amusement ride andsay, can I go again?
Tim (27:15):
So yes, that's awesome.
I was going to ask you whatwould you say is, I wouldn't say
your most difficult person thatyou work with, but the most
challenging?
And I guess it's those peoplethat are just like that saying
you know, I'm never doing thisagain, never doing this again.
Juanita (27:43):
And then you know, I guess they see that it's not as
bad as they made it out to be.
They're absolutely not the mostchallenging in any way.
They're quite delightfulbecause I know that they're
going to say it now.
I've years and years ofexperience.
I know they're going to say I'mnever doing it again.
I'm like mm-hmm, yeah, okay,cool, not a problem.
And I, you know.
And no, that's not true.
Well, not so far Never hadsomebody who then doesn't say at
the end that was great.
Now that I understand how thisworks, I want to do it more and
(28:05):
more and more.
But I suppose the mostchallenging would be people who
have been trained in a differentway.
So I select all of our TEDxspeakers and we have input from
our team.
We watch people for up to abouttwo years, usually before.
So we're listening to everypodcast.
(28:26):
They're on every news article.
We're reading at least theexecutive summary of their and
the top and tails of their PhDsor their books.
So we really do a very deepdive to make sure that the idea
is great before we're going toput them on the stage.
I think one of the things thatmakes us, you know, pause for a
moment before having somebodyspeak or bringing them in to
(28:51):
speak on our stage because itjust might not be a good fit.
Is anyone who has clearly beencoached to speak in a particular
way?
So, for example, because theydon't want to undo it, they
don't want to let it go.
So you know, we have certaintypes of speakers, like people
who speak as though they'representing an afternoon special
(29:14):
on so everything it sounds likethis and you're like, oh my gosh
, and you know that's a lot ofwork.
Um, people who have had somekind of theatrical or drama
training as part of their publicspeaking training previously
and want to do this, and really,you know, that's not, that's
not ted style, you know, forlack of a better term, um, it's
(29:34):
people days.
Really they're not looking forShakespearean, you know pretense
.
They really want to have anauthentic engagement with the
person who's speaking.
They want it to feel more likea conversation.
I mean, there are certainindustries, absolutely, where it
is still very much hype andpomp, and that is absolutely
right.
And if I get a client who's you, you know, wants to go and
(29:57):
speak at something in Big Pharma, I'm like, okay, this is a
totally different book for howthis is done.
But for you know, for the mostpart when you are speaking at
conferences, um or TEDx, umevents.
People want to have thatpersonal engagement.
So it's it's more aboutauthentic, sincere things.
So untraining people who'vebeen trained based on very old
(30:21):
school ideas or dramatic ideasof public speaking over the idea
of neuroscience and persuasion,that can be really challenging.
Tim (30:31):
So I guess for me, the way I'm thinking about it is knowing
who your audience is and beingable to take that same message
and change the way you presentand change those types of things
to match that audience.
And how important I'm lookingat my audience now Hopefully you
(30:57):
all have gotten that by nowthat to me the audience and
preparation is two of the mostimportant things that you can do
, or are the most importantthing that you can do.
But then being able toacknowledge that and change that
message to that audience ifyou're given the same idea or
the same talk to differentaudiences right, A hundred
percent.
Juanita (31:15):
Your audience is everything.
So, first of all, know whatyour strategic objective is to
speak.
By the way, that can never bethe word awareness.
If you've ever used the wordawareness, I'm speaking to raise
awareness.
Stop that.
Awareness gets you nothing.
Think of it in terms of suncancer, which you know Australia
(31:37):
, sun cancer, skin cancer.
But you know I could be asaware out the wazoo about skin
cancer and not change a singlebehavior.
You don't want me to be aware.
You want me to put on a hat,put on sunscreen, put on
sunglasses.
Okay, wear a shirt when I'm out.
You know that's behavioralchange.
I'm saying yes to changing yourbehavior.
(31:58):
You want me to understand theUV index and decide when I go
outside.
That is a behavioral change I'msaying yes to.
So, when you're working out yourstrategic objective which you
should do every time before youagree to speak somewhere is what
is my strategic objective ofspeaking at this event or in
this business meeting, whateverit is, and that should always be
(32:20):
phrased as a question someonecan say yes to.
So I want you to put up thislegislation in Congress that
will change the rule of law.
Yes, I want you to buy theseproducts.
Yes, I want you to sign thispetition.
Yes, um, tangible behavioralchange, never awareness.
So work out.
(32:40):
Your strategic objective isthen to do that.
You need to know your targetaudience is, and your target
audience has to be who has thepower to say yes and do it
exactly, because there are somany people who can be
disinterested or say no and getin your way.
Who has the power to say yes?
That's who you should bespeaking to, and then,
absolutely, you should tailor itto them.
(33:01):
I was talking to somebody theother day who had to go and
pitch something to a couple ofdifferent people in an
organization to potentially getsome work signed off on, and
they came back to me to say, oh,I just heard I'm actually going
to have to do this as twoseparate meetings because the
two key decision makers can't bein the same room at the same
time.
Scheduling I'm like gold.
(33:22):
That is the best thing ever Ihave ever heard.
Right, because one is, you know, one is the CFO, who's only
going to care about money.
I mean, that's a grossgeneralization, but that's what
they're being paid to do Right.
And one is about HR andinterested in equity and
retention and recruitment costs.
So you have got this one.
(33:44):
You know pitch.
You're trying to get them tosay yes to yes.
We're going to engage you todeliver this project in our
company.
One of those presentations isjust going to be tailored to be
focused almost entirely aboutnumbers, and the other one like
the cost saving, the benefit,and the other one is going to
include things about, you know,workload, sure, but also about
(34:05):
equity and representation ofwomen in their non-traditional
workplace and those kind ofthings.
So you know very, very differentaudiences.
Same yes at the end.
But you should never, everdeliver the same presentation
twice.
You know it should always be,even if it's only 10% different.
But you know a minimum 10%difference to show that you have
(34:29):
.
You know who that audience isand you're letting them know.
I know who you are in this room.
I know what your challenges are.
I know why you're interested inthis topic and here's some are.
I know why you're interested inthis topic and here's some
takeaways that you can put intoaction straight away for you.
Based on that and that shouldnot be generic, to get up and
give exactly the same speechover and over again, with no
(34:51):
variations, is a real disserviceto that audience.
And it says I'm just phoningthis in.
I haven't taken the time toresearch your company, your
organization, your event, toknow how to absolutely show
value to you as a uniquecollection of humans.
Tim (35:12):
And that's so important and that's a great example the
whole idea that two completelydifferent audiences there with
HR and finance.
Now you really do have thatopportunity to refine it and
target each of them to get thatyes.
And that's where, if you'rejust doing the one presentation
(35:36):
there, you're still trying toget the yes, but it's going to
be a little bit more difficultto take those diametrically
opposed viewpoints or you know,ideas to get that yes, so that's
awesome.
No-transcript, or to worryabout our timing or whatever.
(36:23):
So what are some ways that doyou like to really engage the
audience?
Juanita (36:30):
First of all, I love that this questions come
immediately after the lastquestion because they are
directly related.
There are three points I reallythink I need to make.
First is that most people, whenthey come to me and they want
help with engaging the audience,they immediately go to dramatic
(36:51):
art forms.
So they're thinking about whatdo I do with my hands?
How do I move about the stage?
How many times do I have tolook at different people?
What are the strategies forthat?
And I'm like, okay, I canabsolutely talk to you about
that stagecraft element.
But if you think of yourpresentation and delivering a
truly engaging presentation,that is strategic and again, I
don't care how a truly engagingpresentation that is strategic.
(37:12):
And again, I don't care howengaging you are unless it's
strategic and we're getting toyes at the end.
You know, go and talk tosomebody about an engaging, you
know um, wedding toast totallyseparate thing.
But uh, the reason we careabout engagement is because we
want to get people to yes, um.
But you know, if you think ofit as a hundred meter sprint at
(37:32):
the olympics, what you do withyour hands and your vocal
modulation and where you look,that's like the last five meters
of that race.
It's going to make thedifference at the finish line
and that can be incrediblyimportant.
But no one's like that.
Five percent does nothing foryou if your actual talk is crud.
So you know the yes, there arethings you can do.
You want to make sure that youare not so much of a robot that
(37:54):
you're standing and not lookingat the audience.
Um, my best tip that I say topeople is have a imagine you're
sitting having a conversationwith a friend in a coffee shop.
Pay attention to how often youuse your arms and your gestures
and things, and that's how oftenyou should do it, because you
know otherwise people can tellit doesn't feel authentic.
(38:19):
If you're suddenly thrusting inarm gestures, it's weird.
You want them to feel likeyou're having a conversation
just with them.
So you know, coffee chat armsare perfect.
The other thing I say to them isthat you've got to think of
gestures like alcohol.
So if I handed you a 700mlbottle of vodka and you had one
(38:43):
significant gesture, so you haveone glass, pour the whole
bottle in there well, that is avery, very, very strong thing
which people will remember andwill dramatically emphasize a
point.
But if you put out 20 shotglasses and poured it across 20,
that dramatically weakens thestrength of each one of those
(39:04):
drinks.
So the more overt gestures youhave, the weaker the influence
and impact of each one.
So think of gestures like abottle of alcohol and how many.
How you know?
How strong do you want to be,how weak do you want to do?
Because the more you spread itout, the weaker they become.
So that's in terms of thestagecraft or the dramatic part
(39:28):
of it.
I think the other thing that'sreally important is that if you
the work comes following on fromour last question, if you want
your talk to be engaging, thework happens when you set your
strategic objective and when youunderstand your audience and
you tailor somethingspecifically for them and you
(39:49):
can tell you've achieved thisbecause A they'll feel engaged.
But the second you start talkingand start mentioning things
that are relatable to thembecause you've investigated it
and you let them know that youunderstand that you have this
particular problem and that youhave a solution for it.
That person in the audience whomight have just heard three
other people speak and you knowthere might be double screening
(40:11):
on their phone, will suddenlystart hearing things like oh,
you know, this is particularlyfor, let's say, for example, you
know, professional women whoare struggling to juggle the
challenges of parenting andcareer.
If that is somebody in theaudience, they will hear that,
they will look up and they willpay attention and they will feel
(40:32):
like this presentation oh mygosh, this presentation has been
written specifically for mebecause it has and they will
then be engaged.
So, if you want your audienceto be engaged, the secret is to
actually know who they are, workout what will deliver them
value.
Know who they are, uh, work outwhat will deliver them value,
(40:55):
tell them that, show anddemonstrate you have an
authentic understanding and canhelp them, and then they will be
engaged.
And it's none of these, youknow, sometimes people use the
word tricks it really, you know,it's not something I feel happy
with, um, because people say oh, you know can.
Can you give me the tricks to toget people to pay attention or
to feel engaged?
I'm like, if you're going withthe mindset that you're trying
to trick your audience ratherthan authentically engage and
(41:19):
serve them and deliver, thenthat's your first problem.
You shouldn't be trying totrick them by having look, my
presentation is pretty ordinarybut I'm going to chuck in some
like dramatic.
You know things to get yourattention and you're magically
going to be engaged.
Maybe they are more engaged,but you're not going to get them
to.
Yes, if the content of whatyou're putting together isn't so
(41:41):
.
You know, I think to beengaging, you need to write
really, really great contentthat is strategically crafted to
them.
So content is king, um.
Two, you got to do that.
You need to really, reallyunderstand and respect your
audience.
So understand who they are,what will give them value, and
so don't sell, don't try andtrick them.
(42:03):
It's not a dodge or a hustle.
And three, understand, yes,stagecraft is a part of it, but
it is the last five meters in ahundred meter race and what will
far more likely engage the welland keep them engaged is the
quality and caliber of what yousay and your knowledge and that
you show authentically.
(42:24):
You are not trying to dodge orhustle them.
So the person in the audiencethat you need to get a yes from
whether that's one person or athousand people will go.
Oh my gosh, this presentationfeels like it was written just
for me.
Tim (42:37):
She's talking to me exactly , exactly, yeah, and I it's such
a good point.
I think that the whole idea ofstagecraft is is so overblown
and and overused, uh, and and,like I said, like, like you said
, I think people see that theythat they're trying to be
tricked.
We don't walk around talking topeople flailing our arms all
(42:59):
over the place.
That's not natural, that's notnormal and I'm a big believer in
just being you and beingauthentic with who you are and
how you communicate with people.
And if you were to get on stageor get are and how you
communicate with people and whenyou, if you were to get on
stage or get in front of a groupof people and start flailing
your arms around, people knowthat's not how you normally talk
, it's not how you normally areright and it's gonna throw them
(43:22):
off absolutely, it's the answer,but it's also the vocal tone
and the way you speak.
Juanita (43:26):
I I had a really lovely um client, uh, new client come,
client come and actually flewinto my city, flew themselves
into my city a couple of weeksago to have in-person coaching
and was really excited to sharetheir draft presentation.
And they got up and deliveredit and I listened Brilliant idea
(43:49):
, incredibly talented and brightperson and I just, you know,
I'm like'm like, okay, what youhave done.
Just then, just so you know,you just delivered a dramatic
monologue and not a speech or atalk, and I I get a lot of that
um, it happens quite often.
I'm like, do you understand thedifference?
If it feels like I could haveseen that delivered on stage in
(44:12):
a theatre as part of a monologuein a play or a show, then
that's a dramatic monologue.
You have preached at me.
You didn't give a speech or atalk that was going to persuade
me, and so the language waswrong.
The idea is brilliant, thelanguage was wrong and it really
I'm like you have spent a lotof time and effort writing what
(44:34):
is a dramatic monologue and thatis not a speech or a talk that
will persuade anyone.
They're going to feel lecturedat and not conversed with.
Tim (44:47):
Um, and I hope people understand that, because, and
again, if you, if you feellectured at, your people will
shut down and they'll shut downquick and you know your, your,
your call to action won't, won'tbe followed up, that's, that's,
that's just that.
So Well, why do you know?
(45:07):
I love the name of yourbusiness, full and Frank, and I
think you just demonstrated whyyou named your business Full and
Frank, and why don't you telleverybody why that is?
Because, again, I think we'rethe same people and to me it's
obvious.
Juanita (45:27):
Well, when I first went out and decided to go out alone
and I left the corporate world,I knew I didn't want for me.
It didn't feel right to havesomething that was like Juanita
Wheeler at Associates.
It just was not a good fit forthe way that I operate.
And so, with my creativedirector, who's based in Texas,
we sat down and wrote words thatmore appropriately described my
(45:49):
manner, and it was interestingbecause it was things that often
in the corporate world peoplewould say you're brilliant but
you're too blunt.
Or, you know, I agree witheverything you just said, but
you're just a little bit toofrank.
But other people would love it.
And so you know I had nointention of dialing it back.
I'm like this is who I am and,honestly, if I can tell you
(46:11):
something in five minutes,especially if I'm charging by
the hour, I'm going to tell youin five minutes and then let's
get to work with the rest ofthat 55 minutes of that hour.
I'm not going to spend, youknow, three hours worth of
consulting to get to nicely.
You know, get you there, I cantell you so much faster.
That just to me feels againdisingenuous.
And you know, get you.
There's something I can tellyou so much faster.
(46:32):
That just to me feels againdisingenuous and you know I
makes me feel icky, like I needto go and have a shower
afterwards.
Like you know, I've dealt withthose consultants.
I do not appreciate them.
Um, so I just went no, so wewent through a list and at the
end we got you know, we're downto like comprehensive but blunt
um and full and frank.
And full and frank was morecatchy, uh, so we went with that
and, um, I love it.
(46:53):
It's 11, a little over 11 yearsin business now and I and I
still love it, which they say isa great uh sign.
If, if you, if your business isa particular uh number of years
old, the older it gets.
If you still love the name,then it was a good choice.
So I I kind of feel like it'sboth my company name but also
it's kind of like a productdisclosure statement.
(47:14):
You know you can't be surprisedif you become a client or you
do an onboarding thing and youget some very frank feedback
which you know sometimes is.
I love your idea.
Everything you just did waswrong, but it can all be fixed.
Tim (47:31):
And, like you said again, you get right to work fixing it
and not having to rub somebody'sback and tell them it's going
to be okay.
You really are smart, youreally are the best ever.
Let's just get down to work andfiguring it out and get busy,
yeah.
Juanita (47:47):
I mean, I'll say it in a sentence your idea is
brilliant.
It's world changing.
The entire world needs to hearabout it.
Let's make this happen.
Everything you just did interms of speaking is wrong.
Let's fix it, but it's allfixable, let's do it.
Let's start right now.
Yes, and the other thing is youknow I'll tell people
everything they need to know andabsolutely nothing that they
(48:07):
don't.
So you know before I put anycontent out or I do any sessions
with people.
I'm like I have three ticks Isthis authoritative?
Is this the best thing based onall the research I've done and
all the fact-checking and all myexperience?
So, is it authoritative?
Is it sincere?
Because I'm a sincere person.
(48:27):
I always want to make sure thatI work with people who I
believe in what they're doingand I want to amplify the work
they're doing, because I dobelieve that the world needs to
know, and you know.
The third one is is it blunt?
Because I am.
Tim (48:42):
That's awesome.
See, I'm called abrasive.
Juanita (48:46):
I have been called abrasive so many times in my
life, especially as a woman, andI've been in meetings where
I've seen someone being calledoh aren't they, you know?
Assertive, and like threeminutes later I'm abrasive and I
have the exact same behavior.
But, yes, no, I get abrasive alot, but I will never be cruel,
(49:13):
will never be cruel.
I will tell you what you needto know in the shortest amount
of time because I believe in youand I want to help.
So, if you're getting frankfeedback, if I'm even bothering
to give you feedback, I believein what you're doing and I want
to help you do it well.
Tim (49:25):
And that's a perfect way to explain.
So where can people get intouch with you or find out more
information if they want to workwith you?
Juanita (49:33):
Well, a really great place to start is my website.
I actually have a tools pagewhich has a number of free
guides and downloads, which is agreat place for people to start
.
It's fullandfrankcom forwardslash tools and, other than that
, you can find me, juanitaWheeler, on LinkedIn and drop me
a message, or you can go to mylink tree and I can provide you
(49:58):
with the address to put the shownotes.
Tim (50:02):
And I want to thank you so much and I'll put all those in
the show notes for everybody.
I can't thank you enough forspending some time with us and I
value your friendship and theadvice that you've given to our
audience.
I think it's amazing.
Thank you so much.
Juanita (50:17):
You're incredibly welcome, Tim.
I love what you're doing.
I'm very happy to help youraudience and it has been a
really delight talking with youtoday.
Tim (50:26):
Yeah, I've had a lot of fun Summertime there.
Stay inside, stay cool.
It's winter here.
I'm going to stay inside andstay warm, so just the opposite.
Juanita (50:37):
Yeah, it's a bit like a jungle here today, but you know
I'm not going to complain.
I like the heat.
Tim (50:44):
You take care and we'll talk to you soon.
Juanita (50:45):
Fantastic Talk soon.
Tim (50:48):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to join a growing community andregister for the point for
public speaking course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll see you next time, takecare.
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that's
here to help you unlock thepower of effective public
speaking.
I'm your host, tim Newman, andI'm excited to take you on a
journey to become a better, moreconfident communicator.
Juanita Wheeler has coachedover 100 TEDx speakers, in
addition to CEOs, entrepreneurs,authors, researchers and
changemakers to deliverpresentations worthy of their
(00:30):
great ideas.
Juanita is a public speakingcoach, speech writer, the CEO
and head of curation at TEDxBrisbane, and the founder of
Full and Frank.
She has over two decades ofspeaking experience, is an
adjunct lecturer at theUniversity of Queensland and is
a global fellow with theAtlantic Fellows, based out of
Oxford University.
(00:50):
Juanita has three master'sdegrees two in business and one
in social change leadership.
Juanita, welcome to Speakingwith Confidence.
I'm really excited to talk toyou today.
You know, I think you and I are, you know, built the same way.
We think the same way and ourapproaches, I think, are very,
very similar.
So welcome to Speaking withConfidence podcast.
Juanita (01:12):
Thank you so much, tim.
I absolutely agree, and it is adelight to be here.
Tim (01:18):
One of the things that really intrigued me about you is
you know you're the CEO of TEDxBrisbane, and how did that come
about and what does thatactually mean?
Because you know, I thinkeverybody knows TED and TEDx and
they see these things, but Idon't think they really truly
understand how it works or howit happens.
So how did you get to beinvolved in this?
Juanita (01:41):
Well, when it first started, I was just like
everybody else who loves tedtalks.
I loved them.
I watched them online.
Uh, they were a reallyimportant part of my day or my
week.
I could get gems of wisdom frompeople who were experts or had
lots of experience in a reallyshort and digestible amount of
time because I was a busy person.
So they were great, uh, and Iobviously talked about them a
(02:03):
lot more than I had realized Idid.
Because one day when I was doingmy first master's, one of my
fellow students said to me youknow those talks you're always
talking about.
Yes.
She said well, I hear there'sgoing to be a local event here
in Brisbane, a small one.
It's going to be at South BankTEDx South Bank Women.
There are only a hundredtickets.
You know you have to apply tobe in the audience.
(02:26):
Shall we do it?
And I'm like yes.
So I applied and I was luckyenough to be offered one of the
spots in the audience.
It was.
It was just the time was gettingclose that I actually started
to get a little anxious about it, because I'm like this is a bit
high risk, because I love TEDtalks, and what if I go to this
local thing and it's a bitho-hum.
(02:46):
Is that going to diminish mylove of TED in any way?
But I really shouldn't haveworried.
It was amazing.
I say to people when they askabout our events, I said if
watching a TED Talk is likewatching a really amazing music
video, then coming to our eventslive is like going to a rock
show.
That's the difference.
So I loved it in the audienceand actually about six to eight
(03:12):
weeks later there was aconfluence of a number of
factors, but that was one ofthem I quit my job in corporate
and left and went wow, thosepeople are inspiring and they're
doing these incredible thingswith their lives.
I don't want to sit in theaudience and watch that person.
I want to be that person who isdoing bold and audacious things
in the area where they're anexpert.
So the second year they asked meto come back as a volunteer
(03:36):
because I'd stayed in touch.
It's a volunteer-runorganization at the TEDx level,
so I'm like, absolutely I'd loveto volunteer.
So that was the next year andthen the year after, they
actually asked me to come andspeak.
So in 2014, so a decade ago Igave my own TEDx talk, which was
based on the topic I wasworking, the space I was working
(03:56):
in at the time, which was aboutcharity and the way that
charities are funded.
And then the person who ran theTEDx and we'd grown to know
each other and work each otherthrough volunteering and
speaking um called me up andsaid she had this amazing career
opportunity to do a contractjob in London working, uh, for
(04:17):
Richard Branson which obviouslyyou say.
You say yes to that right umsaid you know, we had a team
meeting and said you're theperson that we want to take over
and run it.
So I did.
2016 was my first event andshortly after that, before our
2017 event, we got the titlebump to a citywide license and
(04:40):
became TEDxBrisbane, which isvery exciting, and we've been
running it ever since.
Tim (04:46):
That's an amazing story, you know.
Again, I don't think peopleunderstand.
I didn't know until TalkMe thatit's a volunteer organization
and it's pretty much volunteersthat do everything and plan
everything.
And so you started this, butyou got on stage.
Did you have a fear of publicspeaking, or do you have a fear
(05:10):
of public speaking?
And what was that process likein preparing to do a TEDx for
you?
Juanita (05:16):
Well, the TEDx talk was a fair way down my public
speaking journey, but when Ifirst started I absolutely had a
fear of public speaking, and Istill.
Public speaking is not myfavorite thing.
Um, I'm a screaming introvert.
So if you think of like theintrovert extrovert spectrum,
I'm like way down this end ofthe introvert.
Um.
So and people are often shockedwhen I tell them that, or they
(05:40):
don't believe me I'm like no,because this is many years of
skill building in the making.
I've worked on it and learnedthe skills.
So you don't believe me.
I'm like no, because this ismany years of skill building in
the making.
I've worked on it and learnedthe skills.
So you don't feel like I'm anintrovert, but I am and it just
goes to show.
Sometimes people will believeyou know the myth that only
extroverts make great speakersand nothing could be further
than the truth.
You know public speaking areskills.
(06:01):
It's like plumbing.
You know, you learn how to doit, you practice a lot and the
more years of experience youhave, the better you get Public
speaking just the same.
So my situation was that I wasmy preferred mode and it's part
of why speech writing is alsostill something that I do.
A lot of is in text.
I love writing and articulatingmy ideas that way, but what I
(06:25):
was finding in my career was Iwould put together really quite
kick-ass and compellingproposals in writing and send
them by emails and they justweren't getting read.
Newsflash not everyone likesreading documents, no matter how
fantastic they are.
And then I would go along to ameeting or I would see people in
(06:46):
the hall and there would besomebody who would be prepared
to get up and champion theiridea verbally and say it in a
quite compelling manner.
And even if that idea was notas good as the one I had
comprehensively researched andput in writing, there was an
engagement factor.
You know, they were championingtheir idea, they were prepared
(07:07):
to step up and do it.
And I watched time and timeagain those ideas getting up and
you know it frustrated me and I, you know, whinged about it for
you know a nanosecond and thenrealized this is not helping me.
So I went, okay, well, I needto learn how to do this as an
introvert, as somebody whodoesn't have this skill, I
wasn't born with it and wentokay, cool, so there's got to be
(07:29):
a way that people are persuaded, because I didn't just want to
flap my gums, I actually wantedto get the outcome if I was
going to put in the work oflearning how to speak well.
So I did all the research.
You know, I skipped all theresearch about being in.
I didn't want to be an actor,so I didn't need the drama
lessons.
I didn't need what to do withyour hands or how to vocally
(07:50):
modulate.
That wasn't what I was lookingfor.
I was looking for, tell me, theneuroscience.
So I was looking into theneuroscience.
I was looking into behavioralpersuasion theories.
I looked into the neuroeconomics, the science of what makes
people make decisions and sayyes and then used myself as the
guinea pig to say okay, which ofthese strategies?
(08:13):
How do I apply them to publicspeaking?
Because the speaking that I'minterested in, the speaking that
I coach people in, is strategic, persuasive speaking.
So what is going to getsomebody to say yes?
So if you want to be a greatspeaker who gives really great
and entertaining wedding toasts,that's superb.
(08:36):
You don't need me.
That's not my area of expertise.
I am very much about.
Let's sit down before you evertalk and work out what is your
target audience, what do youneed them to say yes to what
will convince them.
And now let's craft that tomake them say yes.
You know, I the flapping thegun thing.
There are people who can helpyou with that.
Tim (08:58):
That's not my area of expertise you know, I I love
that because that's my exactanswer and I'm so I'm going to
take your words and I'm justgoing to start saying that exact
same thing.
You know, you and I have talkedabout this a little bit.
You know, I think, the fear ofpublic speaking.
I mean when you talk aboutpublic speaking, just all of a
sudden, before they even thinkabout it, all of a sudden, you
(09:20):
know, the blood pressure goes up, face turns red and, oh my gosh
, their stomach gets upset, allthese types of things.
And the reality is we do publicspeaking all the time, every
day.
Like you said earlier before westarted recording, public
speaking starts when you walkoutside your house 100%.
Juanita (09:42):
I say it to people all the time.
They're like I could never dopublic speaking.
I'm like do you ever leave yourhouse?
A hundred percent.
I say it to people all the time.
They're like I could neverpublic.
You know, I could never dopublic speaking.
I'm like do you ever leave yourhouse and speak to another
human?
They're like, yes.
I'm like, well, I don't knowhow to tell you this, but you're
already public speaking, sothat's fine.
The public speaking you'reprobably doing is flapping your
gums.
Sure, but let's now look, ifyou want to do public speaking
(10:07):
strategically to persuade people, so you can champion your ideas
and get them to say yes, andthese are just skills.
Tim (10:10):
I can teach you how to do them.
Um, I say, I say it's not hard,it's not rocket science, it's
not rocket science, butsometimes it is hard.
It is hard work to, becauseit's a change in mindset.
We have to think a little bitdifferently about how we're
communicating, right, you know?
Because think about it fromthis perspective and I've used
this example a couple times overthe last three or four days
(10:31):
when you go to a restaurant andthe waiter or waitress comes up
to you and asks you what youwant, how are you going to
respond?
There are some people that Iknow that say, well, can I have
this, or I want this?
Right, when you say, can I havethis?
Well, you're asking thempermission to do something.
But when you tell them this iswhat I want, the whole tone or
(10:53):
attitude of the conversationchanges.
Right, you're not asking forpermission, you're saying this
is what I would like from you,and so that in and of itself, is
a mindset shift.
Juanita (11:29):
No-transcript yes, and I think the mind shift set shift
is is so important.
One of the things that I'velearned, uh, from using myself
for many decades as a guinea pigand someone who was a nervous
and anxious speaker and alsocoaching over 100 TEDx speakers
(11:54):
now, many of whom would say thatthey are extraordinarily
nervous and anxious speakers,particularly when you're playing
at that level is that you needto rethink how you think about
fear and anxious speakers,particularly when you're playing
at that level is that you needto rethink how you think about
fear.
So what has become anabsolutely foundational pillar
of the coaching and the speakercoaching and strategy work that
(12:18):
I do is, you know, put into ashort catchphrase is own your
awesome.
So you know, I'm always tellingpeople and we do this work at
the start, before we starttalking about a script or what
your strategic objective is orall of those things that come
before you ever talk aboutstagecraft is that people need
(12:38):
to be prepared to own theirawesome.
And that's usually where, if weget that right at the very
beginning and we do thattransformative piece of work,
then all of the other thingsbecome easier, dramatically
easier learnt over 20 years andyou know all these speakers is
when people say they're afraidof public speaking.
(13:06):
When I used to say I'm afraid Ihave a fear of public speaking,
you're not afraid of publicspeaking.
I've yet to find somebody thatis actually legitimately afraid
of public speaking.
What they're describing whenthey're talking about, you know,
I'm afraid I might look.
You know I might forget mywords.
I'm afraid that I won't get onthe stage.
I'm afraid I'll fall down.
You know I might forget mywords.
(13:27):
I'm afraid that I won't get onthe stage.
I'm afraid I'll fall down.
You know, on the way up tostage which if that's going to
happen to anyone, it's going todo me, because I'm a screaming
klutz.
If I make it actually to thestage in the microphone, half
the work is done.
But what they're actually afraidof is not that they're afraid
of you know a range of things.
They're afraid of a range ofthings.
They're afraid of beingembarrassed in front of
respected peers and colleagues.
They're afraid that if they doit and they in their mind fail,
(13:52):
then it will just affirm any badthing that has ever been said
to them by a partner, a familymember, a negative boss.
They're afraid that they'll doit and they'll discover that my
idea is not as good as I thinkit is, because someone will
naysay it.
You know these are all verydifferent fears, um, but what
(14:14):
they are, you know, I'm afraidthat people will think I'm
unattractive or focus on my bodytype, or I'm afraid that I'm
afraid that, and it's allexternal judging factors almost
always, um and so when we sitdown and do the work and go,
look, when you say you're afraidof public speaking, and we sit
down and do that transformativepiece that goes cool, and then
(14:36):
we realize you're afraid by ofbeing judged by this person,
this person and I'm like usuallyit'll start with cool they're
going to think that, let them,we're not going to care, we're
just going to let them.
But now let's think about.
You know, you'll think aboutwhat if everything goes wrong?
And we do that with the same.
What if everything goes right?
What if everything goes right?
(14:57):
And why are you letting someexternal person judge you?
What if you trip over?
You know what if this happens?
What if this happens?
But your idea is still fabulousand you pick yourself up and
you do it really well, and thenwe list all the things that
could go wrong, like some peopleoften will say, one of their
biggest fears is they'll forgettheir lines.
I'm like awesome, you've justmade my day, because that is a
(15:19):
hundred percent in your control.
So what we do with your script,how many hours you put into it
before the event, whether or notyou set your alarm to get up
one hour earlier for 30 daysbeforehand to memorize that
thing, that is 100% in yourcontrol.
So we do the work.
That mindset piece first,because every single thing that
(15:42):
comes after is made easier onceyou address this perception that
their fear is actually ofpublic speaking, as opposed to
fears of something else thatthey just conveniently label
because that's what society doesas a fear of public speaking.
Tim (16:00):
Exactly, and would you say that that is the biggest mistake
that people make in theirpreparation Is the mislabeling
of their fears?
Not being in the right mindset,would say that's, that's the
(16:23):
the biggest problem I think it's.
Juanita (16:25):
I think there is no one biggest problem.
I think public speakers, likehumans are.
Absolutely every single one isunique and different.
So what somebody?
You know, some people maylegitimately have no fear of
public speaking and frankly,that's a problem.
Um, because they're cocky andthey're egotistical and they've
skated by and charisma all theirlives so they're not putting in
(16:47):
the work.
You know, it's the.
I'll just slap together apowerpoint and jump up on stage
and I'll think about it the daybefore what I'm going to say um
oh um.
You know that's.
That's a totally differentproblem, but it is a it's a
problem.
Some people may not, may havereally great self so they don't
have fear per se, but maybe theyhaven't put in the work.
(17:10):
So I think there are differentfears, different problems, but I
think the biggest ones that Isee recurring, that you could
kind of put into groups.
One is definitely having thewrong mindset, which is either
I'm not going to put in theeffort because I'm just going to
dial this in, or I have a fearof public speaking, which
(17:32):
actually is a fear of somethingelse, and as soon as you own it
and understand it, we can comeup with a strategy about whether
that's just let them and we'rejust going to let them, or cool.
Here are the things you'reworried about.
Let's write down every singleone of them and then come up for
a strategy to mitigate that.
So that's, you know, fears, um,an absence of planning for when
(17:52):
, things, what you know,planning and preparation to make
sure that whatever you'reworried about let's not just let
that fester in the back of yourmind.
Let's come up with a plan forevery single thing that could go
wrong, down to like zombieapocalypse.
Let's have a strategy, becausethen it's a strategy, it's a
plan, you know what you're goingto do, so it's not taking up
(18:15):
free rent in your brain whereyou could otherwise be focusing
on preparing for your talk.
I think the other thing is justnot putting in the work.
That is a huge problem.
If you see really lacklusterpublic speaking.
It's almost always an absenceof effort.
Um, the people who you knowevery year, for 10x, I will
invariably get at least oneperson who is having a meltdown,
(18:38):
you know, hyperventilating intoa brown bag or locking
themselves in a toilet stoolsaying I can't possibly come out
True story, and I willinvariably have to get them from
that stage to the stage and youknow there is no common
denominator about howexperienced that speaker is.
By the way, sometimes that's afirst time speaker, though
(18:59):
that's far less likely.
The people who it most often isis a person who has done lots
of talking before, thought theycould dial this in and it'd be
like every other talk, didn'tput in the rehearsal time,
didn't put in the prep time, andthe one comment that happens
every single time, regardless ofwho this person is, whether
(19:20):
they've spoken at 2 000 events,events or 10, is I should have
rehearsed more.
I should have prepared more.
Tim (19:29):
So what's the difference between preparing for a TED Talk
as opposed to like a regularpresentation?
Obviously watching them,they're different, but what's
the difference in thepreparation?
Juanita (19:42):
Well they can be incredibly different.
The first thing that I wouldsay in a single word when people
ask me, that is the stakes.
That's, that's the difference.
Um, and so, whether it, youknow, we have things where a
talk might.
It doesn't have to be on a 10xstage.
But if you get invited to give atalk and you know that's your
target audience there, orthere's somebody in there who
(20:04):
can, you know, green light yourfunding for something or come on
board as an angel investor orchange a piece of legislation,
or you know.
You know Oprah is not a TEDxtalk, but if you got invited to
go and speak with Oprah, youknow the stakes are enormous.
So the stakes should directlyreflect how much preparation you
(20:24):
put into it, how much effortyou put in it, how strategic you
become.
That's totally different ifyou're giving a talk at a local
event and there is a smallnumber of your target audience
there that could say yes to whatyour strategic objective is.
And, by the way, if there isnone of your target audience
(20:45):
there, why are you even?
speaking at the event go dosomething else, you know, if
your people aren't there withthe power and authority to say
yes to your strategic objectiveand that doesn't matter, whether
it's about buying a product,buying a service, investing in
your company, changinglegislation, it doesn't matter
It- doesn't matter but what isyour strategic objective?
(21:07):
If they're not in that room, whyare you?
But if it's low stakes, thenyou know, maybe a little bit
less preparation is fine, but assoon as you get to something
that is high stakes.
So if it's a pitch, and you'repitching to people who could
give you a million dollars andchange the trajectory of your
company, that's big stakes Putin 100 hours.
If it's a TEDx talk, you know,and that has the potential to
(21:29):
consolidate your position as anexpert in this particular space,
you know that's game changingAt least 100 hours worth of
effort.
If you're not interested inputting in 100 hours worth of
work into it, you know you don'twant to come and talk to me.
I'm not your person BecauseI'll just be very frank with you
and say, yeah, no, you knowyou're not serious, you didn't
(21:54):
come to play, go find somebodyelse.
So really the difference betweenthat is stakes and, uh, the
other thing is really important,uh, in that kind of category,
is a signature keynote.
So I work with people as wellwho aren't doing a tedx yet, or
maybe they have done one, butthey they want to develop, uh,
they're at that stage in theirbusiness where they really want
(22:14):
to consolidate their standing asan expert in this space.
Maybe they're looking to thenlaunch a book, launch a podcast,
you know, really be the go-toperson in that, and so they want
to put in the effort to developthat signature keynote that
they can go and deliver prestigekeynotes and at different
conferences on differentcontinents and be the go-to
(22:35):
person for this.
That's a game-changing thingYou're looking to really
consolidate so that again, highstakes, put in the effort and
get it right.
So one of the best things aboutthose people, for example, who
I've worked on the TEDx talks orthe keynotes with, I will then
later see, you know, chapters inbooks or I will see them speak
(22:55):
on you know chapters in books orI will see them speak on a
radio interview or in a podcastand they will use lines and
sections directly from theirtalk or their signature keynote,
because I never write and neverwork with a speaker with one
talk in mind, like ever.
We work out what is the script,and I section the scripts as we
(23:18):
work through them like this is asection about xyz, this is the
section about xyz.
So once they've memorized andlearned them, they've got them
for life.
Anytime they get asked aquestion about that, anytime
they're preparing another talk,and they just you know, I tell
them, think of it as, uh,ingredients in your pantry.
You can cook a whole range ofdifferent recipes for that,
(23:40):
whether it's a snack or a reallyhuge and elaborate meal, and so
many different meals based onthese ingredients, and then
think of each individual talk asa different recipe.
So that's the way I do it,because I don't ever like people
to put in time and effort onthat kind of scale that they
can't reuse over and over againfor the rest of their life.
Tim (24:06):
So that piece is really interesting to me, as you're
preparing for that.
It's being able to use that inmultiple different settings, and
I like that.
But what I really like is thewhole idea of preparation, for
for me, research and preparationjust like you it's key.
(24:27):
It's key to everything that wedo.
You know if, if you're notgoing to do the work, why are
you, why are you even botheringto to to put your name in for
something?
Juanita (24:37):
So I, so I think people have to understand that to be
good at anything, you have toprepare and you have to practice
over and over and over again100% and I think don't get me
wrong I have clients thatoriginally came on board with me
as what I call SOS clients,people I've known professionally
(24:59):
, who will leave it to the lastminute maybe it's a week out and
will say, oh my gosh, I havethis event.
I promised to speak at it agesago.
Life happened, work happened.
I haven't done a single thingor I've got a really dodgy first
draft.
I only have this much budget.
I can buy three hours of yourtime.
Can you do what you can and,and if I can, I can fit it in?
(25:21):
I I usually will, particularlyif I can.
I know them and I know they're.
You know they're nothalf-assing it, but you know
life has happened, um, and you,you give them your time and you
elevate it, but at the same time, you're're like, just so you
know, this is the SOS version,with the time you have available
, but you should come and learnhow to do all of this properly.
(25:43):
And it's usually very funnybecause I think it's hilarious
the people who usually engage methis way.
They're like one of them, jodieMcDowell.
She's actually one of thetestimonial stories on my site.
She was like I'm a week out andshe's a one of the testimonial
stories on my site.
She was like I'm I'm a week outand she's a highly experienced
ceo and she's done lots ofpublic speaking, but she just
hadn't done it in a little while.
I mean, she's a ludicrouslyconfident woman and she just
(26:06):
said, at this point in time, I'drather quit my job than do this
big in a week, which you know,I get it was tongue-in-cheek,
but it shows the the level of,oh, you know, and this is a
highly, highly experienced andcompetent woman.
And I'm like, yeah, cool, sendit to me and I'll spend a few
hours on it.
But she's like I'm never publicspeaking again after this.
(26:26):
This is just a one and done,because I'm talking to her about
hey, I'm just noting this, thiswill be going to your section
for the future anytime youanswer this.
Let's get it right.
So anytime you get thisquestion, we'll do it.
She's like you don't have toworry about that because I'm
never, ever speaking again.
I'm like mm-hmm, I'm like justletting you know, jodie, 100% of
(26:48):
people who come to me in thisway say this is the only time
I'm ever going to do this andI'm never doing it again.
And currently it has 100% valuerate in that they come back to
me and as soon as they know howto do it and can see that it
will work, then they're like, ohmy gosh, I need to go and get
more speaking gigs.
She's like, no, no, not goingto happen.
And uh, the message I got fromher after she'd walked off stage
, she said it was like the mostamazing thing.
(27:09):
She said I walked off stage andI just wanted to turn around
like it was amusement ride andsay, can I go again?
Tim (27:15):
So yes, that's awesome.
I was going to ask you whatwould you say is, I wouldn't say
your most difficult person thatyou work with, but the most
challenging?
And I guess it's those peoplethat are just like that saying
you know, I'm never doing thisagain, never doing this again.
Juanita (27:43):
And then you know, I guess they see that it's not as
bad as they made it out to be.
They're absolutely not the mostchallenging in any way.
They're quite delightfulbecause I know that they're
going to say it now.
I've years and years ofexperience.
I know they're going to say I'mnever doing it again.
I'm like mm-hmm, yeah, okay,cool, not a problem.
And I, you know.
And no, that's not true.
Well, not so far Never hadsomebody who then doesn't say at
the end that was great.
Now that I understand how thisworks, I want to do it more and
(28:05):
more and more.
But I suppose the mostchallenging would be people who
have been trained in a differentway.
So I select all of our TEDxspeakers and we have input from
our team.
We watch people for up to abouttwo years, usually before.
So we're listening to everypodcast.
(28:26):
They're on every news article.
We're reading at least theexecutive summary of their and
the top and tails of their PhDsor their books.
So we really do a very deepdive to make sure that the idea
is great before we're going toput them on the stage.
I think one of the things thatmakes us, you know, pause for a
moment before having somebodyspeak or bringing them in to
(28:51):
speak on our stage because itjust might not be a good fit.
Is anyone who has clearly beencoached to speak in a particular
way?
So, for example, because theydon't want to undo it, they
don't want to let it go.
So you know, we have certaintypes of speakers, like people
who speak as though they'representing an afternoon special
(29:14):
on so everything it sounds likethis and you're like, oh my gosh
, and you know that's a lot ofwork.
Um, people who have had somekind of theatrical or drama
training as part of their publicspeaking training previously
and want to do this, and really,you know, that's not, that's
not ted style, you know, forlack of a better term, um, it's
(29:34):
people days.
Really they're not looking forShakespearean, you know pretense
.
They really want to have anauthentic engagement with the
person who's speaking.
They want it to feel more likea conversation.
I mean, there are certainindustries, absolutely, where it
is still very much hype andpomp, and that is absolutely
right.
And if I get a client who's you, you know, wants to go and
(29:57):
speak at something in Big Pharma, I'm like, okay, this is a
totally different book for howthis is done.
But for you know, for the mostpart when you are speaking at
conferences, um or TEDx, umevents.
People want to have thatpersonal engagement.
So it's it's more aboutauthentic, sincere things.
So untraining people who'vebeen trained based on very old
(30:21):
school ideas or dramatic ideasof public speaking over the idea
of neuroscience and persuasion,that can be really challenging.
Tim (30:31):
So I guess for me, the way I'm thinking about it is knowing
who your audience is and beingable to take that same message
and change the way you presentand change those types of things
to match that audience.
And how important I'm lookingat my audience now Hopefully you
(30:57):
all have gotten that by nowthat to me the audience and
preparation is two of the mostimportant things that you can do
, or are the most importantthing that you can do.
But then being able toacknowledge that and change that
message to that audience ifyou're given the same idea or
the same talk to differentaudiences right, A hundred
percent.
Juanita (31:15):
Your audience is everything.
So, first of all, know whatyour strategic objective is to
speak.
By the way, that can never bethe word awareness.
If you've ever used the wordawareness, I'm speaking to raise
awareness.
Stop that.
Awareness gets you nothing.
Think of it in terms of suncancer, which you know Australia
(31:37):
, sun cancer, skin cancer.
But you know I could be asaware out the wazoo about skin
cancer and not change a singlebehavior.
You don't want me to be aware.
You want me to put on a hat,put on sunscreen, put on
sunglasses.
Okay, wear a shirt when I'm out.
You know that's behavioralchange.
I'm saying yes to changing yourbehavior.
(31:58):
You want me to understand theUV index and decide when I go
outside.
That is a behavioral change I'msaying yes to.
So, when you're working out yourstrategic objective which you
should do every time before youagree to speak somewhere is what
is my strategic objective ofspeaking at this event or in
this business meeting, whateverit is, and that should always be
(32:20):
phrased as a question someonecan say yes to.
So I want you to put up thislegislation in Congress that
will change the rule of law.
Yes, I want you to buy theseproducts.
Yes, I want you to sign thispetition.
Yes, um, tangible behavioralchange, never awareness.
So work out.
(32:40):
Your strategic objective isthen to do that.
You need to know your targetaudience is, and your target
audience has to be who has thepower to say yes and do it
exactly, because there are somany people who can be
disinterested or say no and getin your way.
Who has the power to say yes?
That's who you should bespeaking to, and then,
absolutely, you should tailor itto them.
(33:01):
I was talking to somebody theother day who had to go and
pitch something to a couple ofdifferent people in an
organization to potentially getsome work signed off on, and
they came back to me to say, oh,I just heard I'm actually going
to have to do this as twoseparate meetings because the
two key decision makers can't bein the same room at the same
time.
Scheduling I'm like gold.
(33:22):
That is the best thing ever Ihave ever heard.
Right, because one is, you know, one is the CFO, who's only
going to care about money.
I mean, that's a grossgeneralization, but that's what
they're being paid to do Right.
And one is about HR andinterested in equity and
retention and recruitment costs.
So you have got this one.
(33:44):
You know pitch.
You're trying to get them tosay yes to yes.
We're going to engage you todeliver this project in our
company.
One of those presentations isjust going to be tailored to be
focused almost entirely aboutnumbers, and the other one like
the cost saving, the benefit,and the other one is going to
include things about, you know,workload, sure, but also about
(34:05):
equity and representation ofwomen in their non-traditional
workplace and those kind ofthings.
So you know very, very differentaudiences.
Same yes at the end.
But you should never, everdeliver the same presentation
twice.
You know it should always be,even if it's only 10% different.
But you know a minimum 10%difference to show that you have
(34:29):
.
You know who that audience isand you're letting them know.
I know who you are in this room.
I know what your challenges are.
I know why you're interested inthis topic and here's some are.
I know why you're interested inthis topic and here's some
takeaways that you can put intoaction straight away for you.
Based on that and that shouldnot be generic, to get up and
give exactly the same speechover and over again, with no
(34:51):
variations, is a real disserviceto that audience.
And it says I'm just phoningthis in.
I haven't taken the time toresearch your company, your
organization, your event, toknow how to absolutely show
value to you as a uniquecollection of humans.
Tim (35:12):
And that's so important and that's a great example the
whole idea that two completelydifferent audiences there with
HR and finance.
Now you really do have thatopportunity to refine it and
target each of them to get thatyes.
And that's where, if you'rejust doing the one presentation
(35:36):
there, you're still trying toget the yes, but it's going to
be a little bit more difficultto take those diametrically
opposed viewpoints or you know,ideas to get that yes, so that's
awesome.
No-transcript, or to worryabout our timing or whatever.
(36:23):
So what are some ways that doyou like to really engage the
audience?
Juanita (36:30):
First of all, I love that this questions come
immediately after the lastquestion because they are
directly related.
There are three points I reallythink I need to make.
First is that most people, whenthey come to me and they want
help with engaging the audience,they immediately go to dramatic
(36:51):
art forms.
So they're thinking about whatdo I do with my hands?
How do I move about the stage?
How many times do I have tolook at different people?
What are the strategies forthat?
And I'm like, okay, I canabsolutely talk to you about
that stagecraft element.
But if you think of yourpresentation and delivering a
truly engaging presentation,that is strategic and again, I
don't care how a truly engagingpresentation that is strategic.
(37:12):
And again, I don't care howengaging you are unless it's
strategic and we're getting toyes at the end.
You know, go and talk tosomebody about an engaging, you
know um, wedding toast totallyseparate thing.
But uh, the reason we careabout engagement is because we
want to get people to yes, um.
But you know, if you think ofit as a hundred meter sprint at
(37:32):
the olympics, what you do withyour hands and your vocal
modulation and where you look,that's like the last five meters
of that race.
It's going to make thedifference at the finish line
and that can be incrediblyimportant.
But no one's like that.
Five percent does nothing foryou if your actual talk is crud.
So you know the yes, there arethings you can do.
You want to make sure that youare not so much of a robot that
(37:54):
you're standing and not lookingat the audience.
Um, my best tip that I say topeople is have a imagine you're
sitting having a conversationwith a friend in a coffee shop.
Pay attention to how often youuse your arms and your gestures
and things, and that's how oftenyou should do it, because you
know otherwise people can tellit doesn't feel authentic.
(38:19):
If you're suddenly thrusting inarm gestures, it's weird.
You want them to feel likeyou're having a conversation
just with them.
So you know, coffee chat armsare perfect.
The other thing I say to them isthat you've got to think of
gestures like alcohol.
So if I handed you a 700mlbottle of vodka and you had one
(38:43):
significant gesture, so you haveone glass, pour the whole
bottle in there well, that is avery, very, very strong thing
which people will remember andwill dramatically emphasize a
point.
But if you put out 20 shotglasses and poured it across 20,
that dramatically weakens thestrength of each one of those
(39:04):
drinks.
So the more overt gestures youhave, the weaker the influence
and impact of each one.
So think of gestures like abottle of alcohol and how many.
How you know?
How strong do you want to be,how weak do you want to do?
Because the more you spread itout, the weaker they become.
So that's in terms of thestagecraft or the dramatic part
(39:28):
of it.
I think the other thing that'sreally important is that if you
the work comes following on fromour last question, if you want
your talk to be engaging, thework happens when you set your
strategic objective and when youunderstand your audience and
you tailor somethingspecifically for them and you
(39:49):
can tell you've achieved thisbecause A they'll feel engaged.
But the second you start talkingand start mentioning things
that are relatable to thembecause you've investigated it
and you let them know that youunderstand that you have this
particular problem and that youhave a solution for it.
That person in the audience whomight have just heard three
other people speak and you knowthere might be double screening
(40:11):
on their phone, will suddenlystart hearing things like oh,
you know, this is particularlyfor, let's say, for example, you
know, professional women whoare struggling to juggle the
challenges of parenting andcareer.
If that is somebody in theaudience, they will hear that,
they will look up and they willpay attention and they will feel
(40:32):
like this presentation oh mygosh, this presentation has been
written specifically for mebecause it has and they will
then be engaged.
So, if you want your audienceto be engaged, the secret is to
actually know who they are, workout what will deliver them
value.
Know who they are, uh, work outwhat will deliver them value,
(40:55):
tell them that, show anddemonstrate you have an
authentic understanding and canhelp them, and then they will be
engaged.
And it's none of these, youknow, sometimes people use the
word tricks it really, you know,it's not something I feel happy
with, um, because people say oh, you know can.
Can you give me the tricks to toget people to pay attention or
to feel engaged?
I'm like, if you're going withthe mindset that you're trying
to trick your audience ratherthan authentically engage and
(41:19):
serve them and deliver, thenthat's your first problem.
You shouldn't be trying totrick them by having look, my
presentation is pretty ordinarybut I'm going to chuck in some
like dramatic.
You know things to get yourattention and you're magically
going to be engaged.
Maybe they are more engaged,but you're not going to get them
to.
Yes, if the content of whatyou're putting together isn't so
(41:41):
.
You know, I think to beengaging, you need to write
really, really great contentthat is strategically crafted to
them.
So content is king, um.
Two, you got to do that.
You need to really, reallyunderstand and respect your
audience.
So understand who they are,what will give them value, and
so don't sell, don't try andtrick them.
(42:03):
It's not a dodge or a hustle.
And three, understand, yes,stagecraft is a part of it, but
it is the last five meters in ahundred meter race and what will
far more likely engage the welland keep them engaged is the
quality and caliber of what yousay and your knowledge and that
you show authentically.
(42:24):
You are not trying to dodge orhustle them.
So the person in the audiencethat you need to get a yes from
whether that's one person or athousand people will go.
Oh my gosh, this presentationfeels like it was written just
for me.
Tim (42:37):
She's talking to me exactly , exactly, yeah, and I it's such
a good point.
I think that the whole idea ofstagecraft is is so overblown
and and overused, uh, and and,like I said, like, like you said
, I think people see that theythat they're trying to be
tricked.
We don't walk around talking topeople flailing our arms all
(42:59):
over the place.
That's not natural, that's notnormal and I'm a big believer in
just being you and beingauthentic with who you are and
how you communicate with people.
And if you were to get on stageor get are and how you
communicate with people and whenyou, if you were to get on
stage or get in front of a groupof people and start flailing
your arms around, people knowthat's not how you normally talk
, it's not how you normally areright and it's gonna throw them
(43:22):
off absolutely, it's the answer,but it's also the vocal tone
and the way you speak.
Juanita (43:26):
I I had a really lovely um client, uh, new client come,
client come and actually flewinto my city, flew themselves
into my city a couple of weeksago to have in-person coaching
and was really excited to sharetheir draft presentation.
And they got up and deliveredit and I listened Brilliant idea
(43:49):
, incredibly talented and brightperson and I just, you know,
I'm like'm like, okay, what youhave done.
Just then, just so you know,you just delivered a dramatic
monologue and not a speech or atalk, and I I get a lot of that
um, it happens quite often.
I'm like, do you understand thedifference?
If it feels like I could haveseen that delivered on stage in
(44:12):
a theatre as part of a monologuein a play or a show, then
that's a dramatic monologue.
You have preached at me.
You didn't give a speech or atalk that was going to persuade
me, and so the language waswrong.
The idea is brilliant, thelanguage was wrong and it really
I'm like you have spent a lotof time and effort writing what
(44:34):
is a dramatic monologue and thatis not a speech or a talk that
will persuade anyone.
They're going to feel lecturedat and not conversed with.
Tim (44:47):
Um, and I hope people understand that, because, and
again, if you, if you feellectured at, your people will
shut down and they'll shut downquick and you know your, your,
your call to action won't, won'tbe followed up, that's, that's,
that's just that.
So Well, why do you know?
(45:07):
I love the name of yourbusiness, full and Frank, and I
think you just demonstrated whyyou named your business Full and
Frank, and why don't you telleverybody why that is?
Because, again, I think we'rethe same people and to me it's
obvious.
Juanita (45:27):
Well, when I first went out and decided to go out alone
and I left the corporate world,I knew I didn't want for me.
It didn't feel right to havesomething that was like Juanita
Wheeler at Associates.
It just was not a good fit forthe way that I operate.
And so, with my creativedirector, who's based in Texas,
we sat down and wrote words thatmore appropriately described my
(45:49):
manner, and it was interestingbecause it was things that often
in the corporate world peoplewould say you're brilliant but
you're too blunt.
Or, you know, I agree witheverything you just said, but
you're just a little bit toofrank.
But other people would love it.
And so you know I had nointention of dialing it back.
I'm like this is who I am and,honestly, if I can tell you
(46:11):
something in five minutes,especially if I'm charging by
the hour, I'm going to tell youin five minutes and then let's
get to work with the rest ofthat 55 minutes of that hour.
I'm not going to spend, youknow, three hours worth of
consulting to get to nicely.
You know, get you there, I cantell you so much faster.
That just to me feels againdisingenuous.
And you know, get you.
There's something I can tellyou so much faster.
(46:32):
That just to me feels againdisingenuous and you know I
makes me feel icky, like I needto go and have a shower
afterwards.
Like you know, I've dealt withthose consultants.
I do not appreciate them.
Um, so I just went no, so wewent through a list and at the
end we got you know, we're downto like comprehensive but blunt
um and full and frank.
And full and frank was morecatchy, uh, so we went with that
and, um, I love it.
(46:53):
It's 11, a little over 11 yearsin business now and I and I
still love it, which they say isa great uh sign.
If, if you, if your business isa particular uh number of years
old, the older it gets.
If you still love the name,then it was a good choice.
So I I kind of feel like it'sboth my company name but also
it's kind of like a productdisclosure statement.
(47:14):
You know you can't be surprisedif you become a client or you
do an onboarding thing and youget some very frank feedback
which you know sometimes is.
I love your idea.
Everything you just did waswrong, but it can all be fixed.
Tim (47:31):
And, like you said again, you get right to work fixing it
and not having to rub somebody'sback and tell them it's going
to be okay.
You really are smart, youreally are the best ever.
Let's just get down to work andfiguring it out and get busy,
yeah.
Juanita (47:47):
I mean, I'll say it in a sentence your idea is
brilliant.
It's world changing.
The entire world needs to hearabout it.
Let's make this happen.
Everything you just did interms of speaking is wrong.
Let's fix it, but it's allfixable, let's do it.
Let's start right now.
Yes, and the other thing is youknow I'll tell people
everything they need to know andabsolutely nothing that they
(48:07):
don't.
So you know before I put anycontent out or I do any sessions
with people.
I'm like I have three ticks Isthis authoritative?
Is this the best thing based onall the research I've done and
all the fact-checking and all myexperience?
So, is it authoritative?
Is it sincere?
Because I'm a sincere person.
(48:27):
I always want to make sure thatI work with people who I
believe in what they're doingand I want to amplify the work
they're doing, because I dobelieve that the world needs to
know, and you know.
The third one is is it blunt?
Because I am.
Tim (48:42):
That's awesome.
See, I'm called abrasive.
Juanita (48:46):
I have been called abrasive so many times in my
life, especially as a woman, andI've been in meetings where
I've seen someone being calledoh aren't they, you know?
Assertive, and like threeminutes later I'm abrasive and I
have the exact same behavior.
But, yes, no, I get abrasive alot, but I will never be cruel,
(49:13):
will never be cruel.
I will tell you what you needto know in the shortest amount
of time because I believe in youand I want to help.
So, if you're getting frankfeedback, if I'm even bothering
to give you feedback, I believein what you're doing and I want
to help you do it well.
Tim (49:25):
And that's a perfect way to explain.
So where can people get intouch with you or find out more
information if they want to workwith you?
Juanita (49:33):
Well, a really great place to start is my website.
I actually have a tools pagewhich has a number of free
guides and downloads, which is agreat place for people to start
.
It's fullandfrankcom forwardslash tools and, other than that
, you can find me, juanitaWheeler, on LinkedIn and drop me
a message, or you can go to mylink tree and I can provide you
(49:58):
with the address to put the shownotes.
Tim (50:02):
And I want to thank you so much and I'll put all those in
the show notes for everybody.
I can't thank you enough forspending some time with us and I
value your friendship and theadvice that you've given to our
audience.
I think it's amazing.
Thank you so much.
Juanita (50:17):
You're incredibly welcome, Tim.
I love what you're doing.
I'm very happy to help youraudience and it has been a
really delight talking with youtoday.
Tim (50:26):
Yeah, I've had a lot of fun Summertime there.
Stay inside, stay cool.
It's winter here.
I'm going to stay inside andstay warm, so just the opposite.
Juanita (50:37):
Yeah, it's a bit like a jungle here today, but you know
I'm not going to complain.
I like the heat.
Tim (50:44):
You take care and we'll talk to you soon.
Juanita (50:45):
Fantastic Talk soon.
Tim (50:48):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to join a growing community andregister for the point for
public speaking course.
Always remember your voice hasthe power to change the world.
We'll see you next time, takecare.
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