July 21, 2025 • 55 mins
What separates managers who merely delegate from those who transform teams? It's not just strategy, it's communication. In this episode of Speaking With Confidence, I sit down with global leadership expert Joanne Merrick to talk about what it really takes to become a powerful communicator in today’s chaotic work world.
With over 25 years of experience across five continents and leadership roles at Amazon, Deloitte, and Juniper Networks, Joanne brings the receipts. She unpacks the neuroscience behind why autonomy fuels creativity, how emotional intelligence can replace micromanagement, and why being understood starts with taking responsibility for how you show up.
We dive into:
- Why communication is a leadership skill, not just a speaking skill
- How to evaluate whether management is the right next step for your career
- The role self-awareness plays in storytelling, feedback, and influence
- How to overcome imposter syndrome and build confidence through connection
- The surprising power of someone believing in you
Whether you're leading engineers, managing meetings, or just trying to make your voice heard without second-guessing yourself, this conversation will give you the mindset, tools, and practical language to communicate with clarity and impact.
Connect with Joanne:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joanne-merrick
Game On! Is Management Your Best Career Play?
Her Free management assessment: theleadershiprecipe.com
Visit TimNewmanSpeaks.com to grab your free eBook, The Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them, and start building the confidence you deserve!
Want to be a guest on Speaking With Confidence? Send Tim Newman a message on PodMatch
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Episode Transcript
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Tim (00:08):
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast dedicated
to helping you unlock the powerof effective public speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
If you have questions or if youwant something covered on the
podcast, send me a message.
(00:29):
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is Joanne Merrick.
Joanne brings over 25 years ofglobal experience in leadership
development, having deliveredtransformative programs across
(00:50):
22 countries and five continents.
As founder of the LeadershipRecipe, she helps individuals
and teams enhance communication,emotional intelligence and
performance.
Her background, spanningleadership roles at Deloitte,
amazon and Juniper Networks,fuels her fresh
neuroscience-driven approach.
In her debut book, game On IsManagement your Best Career
(01:11):
Plate, she empowersprofessionals to make informed
decisions about stepping intomanagement roles.
Joanne, welcome to the show.
I'm so happy to have you ontoday.
Joanne (01:20):
Thank you so much, Tim.
It's great to be here.
When you say five continentsand 22 countries, man, that's a
lot of frequent flyer points.
Tim (01:29):
It is, and you know, that's where I really wanted to start
with.
I mean, you've lived in allparts of the world.
How has that, you know, changedhow you view communication and
leadership, or has it changed?
Joanne (01:45):
change how you view communication and leadership, or
has it changed?
Oh, it totally has.
My accent.
For listeners that might bewondering by now, my accent is
Australian, so I like to pointthat out.
Otherwise they're wonderingwhat my accent is and they're
not really listening to anythingI'm saying.
Ask me how I know.
Yes, so I left Australia about17 years ago and I moved to Hong
Kong of all places.
(02:05):
I lived there for three and ahalf years and that was a real
transition for me, even thoughat that point I'd spent a lot of
time training and traveling inand around Asia and all parts of
Asia, from India, japan, china,thailand, you know, you name it
.
It was still, you know, asurprise for me.
It was still a definite kind ofculture shift from what I had
(02:27):
been used to in Australia andthen to move from Hong Kong to
where I'm now, in the US.
I've been here for about 13years now.
Again, it's a different culture.
You know we speak the samelanguage, but it's a very
different culture here in the USfrom what it is in Australia.
And I think the biggest lessonfor me in those moves has been
(02:52):
how do I integrate myself intoother cultures as quickly as I
possibly can and to do that Ifind something in common with
folks as quickly as I possiblycan, and I also believe that the
onus is on the communicator tobe understood.
It's not me expecting them tounderstand me.
(03:14):
My responsibility is absolutelyto be understood and I truly
believe that that's important inthe realm of management that I
know we're going to talk abouttoday as well, but you know it's
about it's my responsibility toget my message across, to have
to be accountable for the impactthat I'm having, and that's
been, I think, one of thebiggest lessons from living in a
couple of different countries.
Tim (03:35):
Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because you know, as we
talked before we came onlinehere, you know, knowing yourself
and knowing how you communicate.
You know first you have to knowwho you are.
But it's not about you, it'sabout your audience and and
knowing, knowing them and makingsure that that that you're
doing what you can so that theycan understand you and and kind
(03:58):
of get where you're coming fromand and and we're going to get a
little bit more in depth intothat, because you're some really
good work from a neuroscienceperspective that I'm fascinated
by, right.
But one of your roles was withAmazon and you know, were you
(04:18):
the person that was in charge ofprofessional development for
all of Amazon or for a specificdivision?
Explain kind of what you did.
Joanne (04:28):
Sure, I was initially hired.
I lived in California at thetime, in San Jose.
I was initially hired to lookafter learning and development
for Lab 126, which is thedevices function, for want of a
better word.
That's the group that had whenI, when I went there, they had
just launched the alexa.
(04:48):
Do you remember the, the toweralexa?
And this was also the groupthat was responsible for the
rollout um and creation of um,the kindle, which was also one
of my favorite tools.
I actually still have one ofthe if not the, I think it's
maybe the second edition kindlethat ever came on the market
Very proud of that ancient tool.
(05:09):
Now, I was always fascinated bythe fact that you could get a
whole book on one device or anumber of books on one device.
So I felt destined to go tothat organization.
I was very fortunate to workthere for about three and a half
years.
It was about 12,500 peopleultimately under my stewardship,
(05:30):
around about 2,000 managers allup that we were educating all
around the world.
So that was a wonderful careermove for me and a fantastic
organization.
Great experiences there.
Tim (05:46):
So what were some of your challenges in terms of training
and development?
You know, with a team that bigagain, based all around the
world, what were some of thechallenges that you faced and
how did you overcome them,specifically from that
communication and managementleadership perspective, I think
you really need to work with thebusiness to find out what the
(06:07):
business needs from a learningand leadership development
perspective.
Joanne (06:10):
You know you need to get , you need to build
relationships with leadershipwithin that organization.
They need to know what valueyou might add to their
respective functions or theirrespective businesses within the
broader business.
And then, of course, you needto deliver.
Tim, like anything else.
Right, it's like this is what Ibelieve I can do and this is
(06:30):
what I'm going.
This is what I want to do, thisis what I'm planning to do.
Get their buy-in every step ofthe way, and I think, initially,
building those relationshipswith the leadership and then
delivering on what you sayyou're going to do is a really
important element.
It was really important to mysuccess anyway.
Tim (06:52):
You know buying is so important.
Like you said, I was at aconference last week and we were
just having kind of aroundtable talk and I talked
about how I accomplishedsomething you know a number of
years ago, which you know someplaces are doing, some places
aren't.
And the question was how?
How did I do that?
And I got into the the nuts andbolts of it and halfway through
(07:16):
I said, first off, we have tostop because I missed the most
important step we have to havethe buy-in, because it doesn't
work if we don't have the buy-in.
If I didn't have everybody onthe team buying into this, it
wasn't going to work.
And sometimes buy-in happensright away and sometimes it
takes a little bit of time Onceyou show that what you're doing
(07:38):
and what you're talking about isactually going to work.
Sometimes that's how buy-inhappens.
But if you don't have buy-in,it doesn't matter how good your
idea is or how beneficial thatchange is going to be, it's not
going to work.
Joanne (07:54):
Absolutely, and I think there's a real opportunity to be
innovative around what you candeliver, like by speaking and
engaging and getting the buy-inof other folks, and an example
of that was there was aparticular area of the business
that had principal engineers.
(08:15):
These are people that have gotat least one PhD, maybe many
more.
They've worked really hardthroughout their career.
They're crazy.
You know smart people and youknow they work with a lot of
other.
You know teams of individuals,whether they're reporting
(08:36):
directly to them or that theyjust have influence over.
You know they're not part ofthe formal structure, and one
thing the business was noticingwas that these people were great
managers and leaders, but theyfelt that they needed to come up
with all of the solutionsthemselves.
They felt that they needed tocome up with all of the ideas
(08:58):
because they were oftenliterally the smartest person in
the room, you know.
So what their leadership wantedto do was have me train them in
how to bring about innovativethought in others.
So we had a program we calledCoaching for Development, which
we were rolling out internallyacross the organization.
(09:19):
So what I did was, rather thandeliver that program, I tweaked
it up a little bit, added a fewcomponents and called the
program Coaching for theDevelopment of Ideas, and we ran
that across the principalnetwork and it was a fantastic
way to train really, reallysmart people to have better
conversations, to be more kindof inclusive, to be more curious
(09:42):
about what their teams broughtto the table the ideas their
teams brought to the table andfor them ultimately to not
really feel like they had tocome up with all the solutions
themselves.
In fact, they realized at theend of it all that they could
actually get better solutionsfrom engaging and interacting
with their teams.
So it was a win-win foreveryone.
(10:04):
But that was an example of aprogram that required a little
bit of innovation, lots ofconversation and collaboration
with the leadership and wasreally about solving a real
business problem.
Tim (10:17):
And and you giving up control or and I'm not, I don't
even know that control is right.
We're giving up that, that, thewhole idea that everything
rests on your shoulders and ifyou don't have the solution,
then it's going to fall apart.
That's a tough obstacle toovercome, especially for those
(10:38):
people that are that smart orgenerally the type A
personalities that are generallythe ones that have you know,
have always had, you know, theideas, have always been able to
communicate their ideas, andthat's one of the reasons why
they get into those positions.
And now you're asking them togive up some of that.
That's a big ask.
Joanne (10:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's not easy, but they need tosee the light at the end of the
tunnel and know that it's not atrain coming in the opposite
direction.
They need to see the benefit inthe collaboration, the
communication, the engagement,the influence, the bringing
about of ideas in other peoplefor the betterment of themselves
(11:22):
and, obviously, their functionsand the business.
So it's a personal journey thatthey need to go through as well
and that's why we would oftenrun programs that went over, you
know, maybe a two, three dayperiod Not all day, obviously,
but two or three days.
We've still got to get our jobsdone, but it was an engaging
(11:42):
experience for them that theyengaged in together with their
leaders, and that, I think, isanother important component of
building learning to givefeedback appropriately or how to
(12:06):
communicate or how to, you know, set visions or how to set
goals or whatever.
They've done it before.
They've attended training maybebefore in their careers.
But to be involved in thosekinds of programs with their
teams has this powerful, reallyengaging element to it, powerful
(12:27):
, really engaging element to it,and it's a win-win for their
teams and it's also a win-winfor the leaders, because they
get to see their teams functionunder a completely different
light and they're all learningthe same thing right.
They start singing from thesame hymn book, so to speak, and
they create a language.
They communicate in a way thatjust becomes ultimately more
efficient and more effective,because they've all been part of
(12:47):
the same experience.
Tim (12:48):
Right and it builds trust.
It builds trust that you knowtrust from the leadership to the
team that shows that they trustthem to do what they need to do
and that they're going to havethe ownership or the buy-in and
entrust the team with theleaders, that if something
(13:09):
doesn't work, it's not going toblow up in their face.
They're working through theseissues and problems together.
Success comes together and itreally does take the entire team
to take it to the next level.
That's incredible, you know,and we talk about communication
most of the time.
(13:30):
You know from us speaking right, but there are so many other
aspects of good communicationthat's critical, such as
listening and nonverbal, facialexpressions, body language, etc.
What have you noticed in yourcareer that people could use
some help on in terms of goodcommunication and what have you
(13:52):
noticed from people that do itreally well?
Joanne (13:56):
I think the people that do it really well.
There's a congruence betweenwhat they're saying, what their
faces are expressing, what theirbodies are showing.
At the same time, there's thiscongruence between those
elements that enables the personthat they're communicating with
to kind of feel at ease, tofeel comfortable, to feel valued
(14:18):
, to really feel the trust asyou mentioned before, and kind
of they're literally morecapable of opening up and
engaging and having a betterconversation.
The biggest challenge that I'vefound with a lot of leaders,
especially new managers, they'renot as self-aware, potentially,
around what is going on withtheir body physically while
(14:42):
they're having conversationswith other people.
And you know the classicexample is when you're sitting
across from someone and you'rekind of face-to-face to them but
their body is sideways or youknow they're looking out the
window half the time rather thanlooking at you, or they've got
their arms folded in front oftheir chest kind of in, kind of
(15:04):
like a self-protection, you knowkind of mode.
I have encouraged leaders to,as uncomfortable as they might
be in the moment, right, theymight feel like closing down,
having a facing a differentdirection from the person that
they're talking to.
They may feel like they want todo that but they can't because
(15:28):
their main aim is to communicateeffectively and to have the
other person feel comfortable inengaging and communicating with
them.
So they need to do whateverthey can do, especially as it
relates to their own bodylanguage, to enable that
increased level of comfort inthe person that they're
communicating with, and it'shard for some people.
Tim (15:51):
I see that, and how much do you think that that transfers
over to you know the youngerprofessionals and how they learn
how to communicate in terms ofyou know when they move up into
those types of positions or whenthey have to have tough
conversations or that okay, soyou know when they move up into
those types of positions, orwhen they have to have tough
conversations or that okay, soyou know, I've been in this type
of scenario five times, andfour of those times this is how
(16:14):
the person who was in that roleacted.
So that's probably, you know,my go-to as well.
Joanne (16:23):
Yeah, I think it starts with self-awareness and being
curious around the impact thatyou're having on other people,
and I'm a huge advocate of 360assessments, especially for
managers and new managers, asthey're starting to learn a
trade and it is a learnabletrade to be a great manager.
(16:43):
It's not something thatnecessarily comes naturally to
everyone, but it is somethingthat can be learned, and the
impact that managers have onother people can be is a
significant element of the role,and you can have a fantastic
impact on other people, but youcan also have a horrible impact
on other people as well.
(17:04):
So, if you're choosing tobecome a manager, you need to be
open to learning about what itis you're doing well in your
role, what's working about yourcommunication style, but also
what's not going well and maybewhat's not working in your
communication style and thenadjust it and be open to
(17:25):
adjusting it, you know.
Tim (17:27):
And I love the idea of the 360 evaluations.
You know the Myers-Briggs, theDiscus.
You know those types ofassessments as well Because you
know you as a team member canlearn how you know your coworker
or your manager or leaderthinks same with you, and then
you can kind of mold yourinteractions to get the best out
(17:51):
of them from that perspective.
Joanne (17:56):
Absolutely.
And in communicating withothers myself, I've also kind of
made a lot of assumptions thatwhat I'm saying is actually
what's being heard Right, andthen they might reflect back to
me what I said in an activelistening kind of sequence,
(18:17):
because that's what they've beentaught to do, right.
So they actively listen andthey do that really well and
they do reflect what I said, butthey don't necessarily reflect
what I meant, right.
So that means that I'veabsolutely miscommunicated.
You know, there's an equationout there for the engineers that
might be listening that yourintent of what you communicate,
or what you want to communicate,needs to equal your impact.
(18:40):
And if it's not, then there'ssomething wrong with how you're
communicating it and it's up toyou to do something about fixing
that and being open to people'sfeedback, being open to
understanding that what you sayis not necessarily how it might
be interpreted by other people,and adjusting that along the way
is the way that we learn.
Tim (19:02):
Yeah, and it kind of makes me think and I've said this a
number of times I don't think,especially from the younger
professional perspective.
They spend enough time thinkingabout who they are as
individuals.
Right you know what theirvalues are, how they think, how
they come to make decisions,what they like, what they don't
(19:26):
like, et cetera, especially froma professional perspective.
And that really does inform howthey communicate as well,
because if they don't know, itcomes back to the idea of being
self-aware or the idea ofemotional intelligence.
Joanne (19:43):
Right, absolutely, and it's been.
If they want to be a manager, Ibelieve the onus is on them to
be more curious than ever aboutwhat impact they're having on
other people, because managers,just in the very nature of the
role, have a responsibility todo that because of the
(20:04):
significant impact they have onother people, right.
Tim (20:08):
And is this where the whole idea of the idea of
neuroscience comes into play andunderstanding how we react to
those types of situations reactto those types of situations.
Joanne (20:34):
I think neuroscience came about for me back in 2010
or 2011.
I was introduced to the conceptof neuroscience and
neuroscience as it relates toleadership and management, and
what I loved about it when Ifirst started to hear of it was
that a lot of what I'd beenteaching by this point, you know
, for 10 or 15 years was nowbacked by science.
You know I'd been teachingphilosophies and approaches by
(20:56):
really respected individualslike Stephen Covey and Ken
Blanchard, and you know manyothers that had a significant
impact on the leadership andmanagement development realm.
Now the science was there toback it up, and what I felt my
obligation was, now that I hadbeen introduced to this, was to
(21:18):
make the science available tomanagers and leaders to help
them be better managers andleaders, and it resonated really
well with the, especially withthe engineering platform that I
was working with you know at atthe time and, tim, I can give
you an example, if you like whenI was one of the.
Neuroscience tells us thatautonomy, or having a sense of
(21:41):
autonomy, is really importantfor the human brain.
I mean, you can imagineyourself right when you feel
like you're in control, when youfeel like you have choices in
front of you, you feel better,right, you know, you feel like
you're valued, you feel likeyou're engaging better with
others.
You feel like you're in morecontrol.
(22:03):
And one of the lectures that Iwas partaking in when I was
getting interested and certifiedin the topic was through the
Middlesex University.
We were having a conversationon autonomy and its impact on
the human brain, and one of thegentlemen in the class told us a
(22:24):
story about his son, and thestory goes that he had been
partaking in all of thesetraining programs himself.
So I knew the importance ofautonomy.
Autonomy for me was having asense of choice, having a sense
of control over a situation.
He got home one night from workand his four-year-old son was
(22:48):
playing on the staircase intheir home, and he greeted his
son when he got home and then hewent to his kitchen and started
helping his wife with dinner.
It was time to eat dinner, sohe called out to his son to you
know, come to the dinner tableto eat his dinner.
The son was having so much funon the staircase that he said no
, dad, I'm not doing that, Iwant to eat my dinner here on
(23:09):
the stairs.
Well, it was part.
You know we've all been there,right.
So the father part of you knowtheir traditional values was to
eat dinner at the dinner table.
So the fact that his son didn'twant to do that was kind of
unacceptable.
So he could have taken thiskind of authoritarian power you
know, control kind of approachto things.
(23:30):
But he decided not to do that,given what he had learned.
So he said to his son okay, youmust eat your dinner at the
dinner table, right?
So he was setting expectations,very clear expectations up
front.
And he said but I tell you what, tonight you don't have to sit
at your normal seat at thedinner table, you can sit
(23:50):
wherever you like.
You pick the chair, you sitthere, no problems.
The son was interested, why?
Because even over such a simplescenario of eating dinner at
the dinner table, the son all ofa sudden had a choice as to
where he was going to sit and asense of control over himself
and the situation that he'dfound himself in.
But the father didn't stopthere.
(24:12):
He was really smart.
He then said okay, not only canyou choose where you sit, but
you can choose where daddy sitsat the dinner table.
Tonight you can choose wheremommy sits at the dinner table.
Tonight that kid was at thatdinner table so quickly.
Why?
Because he had some controlover his parents, that you know
over such a simple scenario.
(24:33):
So how do you translate thatinto a management scenario?
I think there's a lot ofmanagers out there that just
like to tell their employeeswhat to do, tell them what to do
, how to do it, when to do it.
When, as we were kind oftalking about before, if
managers go to their team andsay, hey, how might you start
this particular task, or whatmight be your next couple of
(24:56):
steps, or what ideas are youcoming up with as to how we
might solve for this problem?
Right, the minute you startasking those kinds of questions
and engaging with your employees, being curious and open to what
they've got to say, yeah,automatically, not only may you
come up with better ideas thanyou might have anticipated in
(25:18):
the first place, but you're alsoget you've also got a team of
people now with you completelyon board, because they're more.
They've got that autonomy rightyou know, feeling micromanaged
and the impact that it has onthe human brain with you
completely on board becausethey've got that autonomy Right.
You know, feeling micromanagedand the impact that it has on
the human brain is just terribleand maybe we can all relate to
scenarios like that where wefeel or have been micromanaged,
(25:40):
and how bad that can be.
Tim (25:41):
Yeah, for me, micromanagement, that's instant
infuriation.
I mean instant, I mean itdoesn't take long at all.
You know, and I look at it froma perspective of you know,
we've been hired to, we've beenhired for a reason, you know,
give us that opportunity to dowhat we do, obviously under some
(26:05):
constraints, you know.
Maybe there's time limits,maybe there's budget limits
there's, you know, within those,you know confines, but allow us
to do it the way that we wantto do it and be productive from
that perspective, you know it's,and just get out of their way.
(26:26):
Exactly.
Joanne (26:26):
Just let them be successful.
Let them do what they, whatyou've hired them to do, right?
I find it a refreshing approach.
To be honest, tim, it doesn'thappen as often as I would like
it to, to be honest, but whenpeople start asking me questions
and get curious about what Ithink you know it just I just
open up.
I just think it's reallyrefreshing.
Tim (26:47):
But I think it's kind of changing a little bit, at least
from what I see.
You know, because I'm somebodythat asks a lot of questions,
you know, in whatever scenariothat I'm in, really to kind of
to clarify it, you know to to tosee what's going on for me, to
(27:08):
start thinking about whateverissue it is, and I'm somebody
that that allows people to justto to do you figure out the way
that that works best for you.
You know what, what's yourtimeframe?
So if I say you know we need tohave this done by by Thursday
at noon and it's Tuesday, youknow, show me how you're going
(27:33):
to get it done, or or, or do it,and if you don't get it done,
then we'll sit down and have aconversation.
Okay, what?
What were your steps?
How can I help you better to?
You know to to meet thoseexpectations.
You know to to get to where youneed to be, but allowing people
to, especially, you know,younger professionals today.
You know when I say instantaggravation or infuriation from
(27:57):
being micromanaged, from myexperience they're the same way.
They may not know how to dosomething, but give them an
opportunity to kind of think itthrough.
Give them an opportunity to trydifferent ways to come up with
solving the solution, whateverit is that they're working on,
(28:17):
and then, if that doesn't work,sit down and help guide them and
mentor them from thatperspective.
Joanne (28:23):
Yeah, I think it's situational too.
You know, like when you've gota new hire coming to the
organization, you may notnecessarily immediately sit down
and say, hey, so how do youthink you should do this?
You know you might need to givethose kinds of people a little
bit more guidance, but you know,or if you have had someone
who's reporting to you and hasbeen for quite some time, the
(28:45):
last thing you're going to do ismicromanage them, because
that's just going to put youboth offside at the end of the
day.
So it is situational, butthat's part of being a great
manager.
I call it the manager antennae.
Oh yeah, you know you've gotyour antenna out there and
(29:05):
you're a little bit more awareof what's going on with you and
the impact and what you're doingto engage with other people and
you need to be adaptable andflexible in your style to enable
them to thrive and get the mostout of them in their employment
right.
So it's a very differentperspective from that of, like
an individual contributor whoall they really need to do is
(29:28):
worry about themselves, whatthey're doing, what they've got
to do, what projects they'reworking on.
You know how they might goabout engaging or completing
those, Whereas when you're amanager, it's just like not
about you anymore, Right, like,not about you anymore.
It's about getting the most outof other people, about getting
results and outcomes, sometimesin ways that or in situations
(29:51):
where the people that arereporting to you don't want to
do the work or even want to beengaged in the project.
So there's a lot of complexityto being a great manager that I
feel a lot of people don't givedue consideration to before
jumping in to the role, and Ithink it's important for folks
(30:17):
individual contributors that arethinking about doing so to
really be curious about the roleand what the full end-to-end
components of the role are.
Tim (30:29):
Yeah, I don't know how realistic this is, but I always
think it's our job as leadersand mentors to help and train
the ones that aren't managershow to be managers before they
even get there.
(30:50):
This is the process.
These are the things.
Bring them into some relevantconversations.
Let's just take budgeting, forexample.
If you've never had to dealwith a complex budget, bring
them in and say, okay, here'sthe deal, here's the big picture
.
These are the things I'mthinking about over here.
These, this is what has to bedone over here, and we need to
(31:12):
bring in this much revenue or weneed to cut this much from the
budget.
These are the things that we'rethinking about.
What, how would you go aboutdoing that?
Or what are you thinking fromfrom your position, and
understand that it's not alwaysgoing to work out in our favor.
You know, it may not work outfor me this time, but if it's
what's best for the team, ifit's what's best for the
(31:33):
organization, that is what it is, and we may get what we want
next time.
But bring them in and teachthem some of those things that
have to be thought about interms of making those decisions.
Joanne (31:45):
Right yeah, things that have to be thought about in
terms of making those decisions.
Right yeah, you might've heardof the 70-20-10 rule.
That's out there, tim, aroundadult education is that 70% of
what we learn is actually on thejob, engaging in what we do,
20% from coaches or mentors orother significant people in our
lives and, much to my chagrin asan educator, only 10% of what
(32:05):
we learn is in the classroom.
However, that 10% is a reallyimportant component, because you
learn in a management programwhat you need to do, how you
need to do it, as a realistictimeframe or realistic
experience as the trainers canprovide for you, and then you go
(32:26):
out to the world and, and youknow, you engage in that.
I call it like you have atoolkit of management skills and
you need to draw on thattoolkit at any given time under
any given circumstance.
So there's a number of thingsthat folks need to learn, but I
do wonder, tim you might relateto this as well that whatever
(32:49):
happened to our apprenticeshipculture?
You know plumbers, electricians.
You know we would not let anelectrician into our home unless
they were fully certified,right Right, they could just do
too much damage.
So, or a plumber, or you knowwhatever else for that matter,
but I think the way that theylearn is possibly one of the
(33:12):
best ways that adults do learn.
You know, like to your point,where you do do a form of
apprenticeship or you getinsight or time with your
manager, where they engage withyou on the management element or
management component, the puremanagement component of their
role, and budgeting is a greatexample.
Tim (33:29):
Yeah, yeah, you know, coming from the education
industry, you know where I spentthe majority of my career.
You know there is no trainingwhatsoever for people that
number one, that are professors.
Number two, that go from beinga professor into administration.
So you know, most of us weren'tever taught how to teach.
(33:51):
But we're teaching.
Most of us, you know, as we gofrom being faculty into
administration, have nevermanaged anything outside of our
own self.
And now we're in charge.
First off, we're in charge ofteaching students it's kind of
kind of important and then we'rein charge of of managing
(34:12):
faculty members and budgets andand all these types of things,
with no idea how to do it andwe're just expected to do well
and we wonder why some of theissues we have, yeah, we haven't
Make it up as we go along,right.
It's.
You know it's bizarre.
(34:32):
So you know, unless you havesome innate skills of being able
to analyze things, being ableto manage people, you can have
some of that, but you still needto learn, you still need to
understand.
You know human behavior.
You still need to learn how toaccomplish things, how to get
that buy-in, how to managebudget, what the priorities are,
(34:54):
you know what the president'spriorities may not be, what your
priorities are and being ableto communicate those types of
things and I think across theboard and obviously those types
of things happen in privatebusiness as well that you know.
Most of the time, the managersare people that have done their
job really well.
They're just promoted, yeah,and with no training or no
(35:17):
skills, and we wonder whythere's such you know turmoil.
Joanne (35:23):
Yeah, you know, and it's a completely different skill
set.
Yes turmoil, yeah, and it's acompletely different skill set.
I would hope that there aresome things that individual
contributors can do in order tostart growing and developing
management and leadership skillswhile they're individual
contributors.
First of all, there's a number,If a lot of great companies
offer fantastic trainingprograms for them.
That's great, but also there'sa number of institutes out there
(35:46):
, such as Harvard, that haveonline courses that are free.
You know they're a Udemyprogram.
I mean, I'm not associated oraffiliated with any of these,
but I have found some fantasticfree online programs that at
least start opening the door tohelping individual contributors
understand what the skills arethat they need to develop and
(36:07):
then start putting them intopractice, whether it's if it's
in the working environmentfantastic, you know, but a lot
of people don't feel comfortableusing or practicing some of
those skills in the workenvironment.
So start practicing them at home.
You know, facilitate, forexample, facilitate a
conversation with your familyover an important topic.
Tim (36:28):
Like dinner.
Joanne (36:30):
Like dinner, right?
Yeah, Start doing you knowthings like that Engaging your
team, Organizing events orfunctions, Getting people
together, Getting feedback fromthem on how you're communicating
, have them watch your bodylanguage, for example, when
you're communicating things youknow.
(36:51):
Engage with a safe community offolks in developing these
skills so that when and if youdo become a manager, you're so
much more practiced Right andyou know, when you become a
manager, you still need topractice.
I think the old adage, Tim, isamateurs practice to get things
(37:12):
right, but professionals theystill practice, and that's to
keep from getting things wrong.
Exactly, Exactly.
And this also lends itself tothe neuroscience of things too.
We're developing neuralnetworks every single second of
every single day, and thoseneural networks need to be
created, recreated and recreatedover time and refreshed over
(37:33):
time, in order for them tobecome just a part of who we are
.
Tim (37:37):
You know, and that's such an important point, I mentioned
that I was at a conference lastweek and what I talked about.
One of the things I talkedabout was, you know, being a
recovering college professor, soI don't have the interaction
with people that I used to.
The majority of my interactionis like this, and I said I I
(37:58):
really miss that, that actualhuman, face-to-face interaction,
sitting down with somebody,shaking somebody's hand, you
know being in a room with agroup of people to be able to
have a discussion, where youknow these types of discussions
are great, but there's to me,there's, there's, there's really
something different and specialabout you know being in the
same room with somebody andhaving those types of
(38:21):
conversations, and if we don'tdo that on a regular basis, what
does that do to our our, our,our levels of of communication?
I mean, it's, it's it's so muchdifferent.
It's so much different having,you know, let's just say we had
10 people in here.
Having a conversation in hereis very different than having a
(38:41):
conversation with 10 people in aroom.
Joanne (38:43):
Absolutely no, it really is.
And it's so important forpotential managers to want to be
in and around and engage withpeople, because that's the
nature of the job, that's whatyou do and you know, I
completely get it there are somepeople that feel less
comfortable in that realm andsome people that feel more
(39:05):
comfortable, but again, it's alearnable skill.
So it's important, you know,for potential managers to know
that you'll need to be in frontof people, you'll need to have
difficult conversations fromtime to time.
You'll need to think outsideyourself.
(39:26):
One of the opportunities that Ithink a lot of managers don't
necessarily realize up front isthat they, more than anyone else
on the planet, I believe, havethe opportunity to unleash
potential, particularly untappedpotential, in their direct
reports, and I think that thatis possibly one of the most
(39:48):
legacy-giving opportunities thatany manager might have, because
they can potentially bringabout the very best in the
people that work for them, whenthose people didn't realize that
they had that very best in themin the first place.
And that is so, so exciting.
(40:08):
And, on the neuroscience frontof things, there's a big impact
on the human brain when we'reinteracting and engaging with
someone else who we know reallybelieves in us, right.
You know there's a lot ofresearch here.
You know you might even relateto it yourself.
Yes, when you are working withsomeone that you know holds you
(40:31):
in high regard or in high esteemor truly values what you bring
to the table, you're actuallymore inclined to do a better job
.
Yes, Absolutely.
And what a fantastic thing for amanager to be able to do for
one human to be able to do toanother human to another human.
Tim (40:51):
Yeah, and that's something from my perspective as an
educator I had to keep top ofmind.
I didn't want to let a studentthink that I didn't think that
they could do something Right.
Because, whether I thought theycould or not, that really
(41:14):
affects, like you said, how theyviewed themselves, how much
effort they were going to putinto it and how they viewed
actually moving forward.
Joanne (41:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've done many things that Inever thought I could ever
possibly do, but someone elsebelieved in me enough to believe
that I could do it, and youknow what I did.
Someone else believed in meenough to believe that I could
do it, and you know what I did.
And I just think, for me, thoseindividuals are amongst the
most amazing human beingswalking this planet, and I will
be forever thankful to thembecause they saw something in me
(41:46):
that I didn't, at leastinitially.
I surprised myself, maybe Isurprised them, I don't know,
but whatever happened, it worked.
Tim (41:58):
So that really kind of goes to one of the pieces in your
book that really kind ofresonated with me.
We talked about the mostimportant skills for being a
manager Communication,collaboration, emotional
intelligence and the whole ideaof innovation and leadership and
as I was reading and thinkingabout it, I don't know that you
(42:22):
could have one if you don't havethe others.
Joanne (42:26):
Right, they definitely overlap in quite significant
ways, I agree.
Tim (42:43):
Getting back to what we started with, the whole idea
that it's about the people, it'sabout the relationships, it's
about the relationships, it'sabout knowing them and making
sure that there's thatconnection, finding that
commonality and building thatrelationship.
That is, to me, that's the realbattle, because unless you're
(43:09):
an architect, unless you're asurgeon, unless you're an
architect, unless you're asurgeon, a rocket scientist,
what we do is it's aboutbuilding connections, building
relationships, and once you dothat, everything else takes care
of itself.
Joanne (43:28):
Yeah, I think one thing that's fascinating for me about
the role of a manager is most ofus, at some point in our lives,
have a manager.
Yes, at some point All of ushave parents too.
I believe our parents are oftenour first managers in life, and
(43:55):
they're the ones that we learna lot from and ultimately kind
of enable us to become who weare, and I believe managers have
the opportunity and have assignificant impact in some
respects as parents do.
Tim (44:05):
You know, when you look at the functions of management,
they're doing all of it, whetherwe realize it or not.
Now, once you become agrandparent, you don't have to
do any of that stuff.
You just get to have fun.
Joanne (44:18):
That's right, and have extra sugar.
It's all ice cream and candy,exactly.
Tim (44:22):
Exactly.
Joanne (44:24):
I can absolutely relate to that as well.
I think people, maybe I wouldhope that people start taking
the role of a manager in a muchmore serious light and that it's
actually eventually given thekudos and the credence if that's
the right word to to be a very,to be understood as a very
(44:45):
significant role in in someone'slife and for people to take to
make a much more consciousdecision to become a manager,
knowing all of the complexitiesyou know, many of which we've
touched on today that go intothe role and do so before they
dive in.
Tim (45:04):
Yes, so you don't wake up one day and not have any idea
what's going on and you haveyour whole team breathing down
your neck because you'remicromanaging somebody.
Joanne (45:17):
Exactly, and it's so easy for good people to find
themselves in situations wherethey might be labeled as bad
managers, and I don't want thatto happen to any of your
listeners today, tim.
I believe that we're all goodpeople out there, but I do think
(45:38):
that sometimes, good peoplefind themselves in challenging
situations and they struggle outof them, and particularly as it
relates to a management role,they struggle out of them in
ways that can potentially bedetrimental to other people.
Tim (45:51):
Yes.
Joanne (45:51):
So I don't want that to happen to any of your listeners,
and obviously that's why Iwrote the book.
Tim (46:01):
Well, your book again.
I talked about this before wecame online here.
I think it's a perfect tool forpeople who are in this position
to go through and actually useit to get better now.
(46:23):
Yes, it's not something whereyou read the whole thing and
then two weeks later you startworking on things.
You can pick up pretty muchanywhere in your book, read that
chapter and start improving.
I mean, there's steps in thereto help people improve.
You know today, from the timeyou read the book.
Joanne (46:44):
I structured the book so that you know you can read the
whole thing, of course, but atthe end of each chapter there's
a reader's quest.
So this is where the game onelement right.
We don't have chapters, we havequests.
So even if folks just read thequests, they would get a general
summary of everything that wasmentioned throughout the chapter
(47:05):
.
And I think one of the mainelements of the book is the
assessment that I created.
That helps folks assess againstwhat I've identified as the key
management skills.
You know where they're at nowso that they can start to
identify where their strengthsare now and also you know areas
that they might want to work on.
(47:26):
The book is definitely the whatof management, tim.
It's not the how, because thatwould be 10 books, if not more,
but it will give some folks somedefinite insight into the role
and, as a result of that too, onmy website which I know we'll
talk about later, but I createdan assessment that folks can go
on and do an online assessmentaround that content that they
(47:49):
can also get other people toassess their capabilities, as it
relates to those key managementskills as well, in a 360 kind
of format, like we talked aboutbefore and you know my hope is
from that in you know, they'llget an idea of where they're at
now and what they need to domoving forward to become even
better.
Tim (48:07):
Yeah, and I think the whole idea of the 360 assessment is
critical for learning, becausewe can we as individuals can
fill out what we think we are.
But again, if that's not howwe're coming across, if that's
not how we're being viewed,that's not how we're being
perceived, then it doesn'treally matter.
We're not.
We could be working on all thewrong things.
Joanne (48:29):
Absolutely, and that's where I think managers need to
continuously it's like as alifelong learning journey
continuously be curious abouthow what they're doing is
perceived.
You know, other people'sperceptions, whether we agree
with them or not, are real.
Yes, and the only way that wechange another person's
perception of us is to changeour behavior.
(48:52):
And we can't change ourbehavior until we know what
other people's perceptions areExactly.
It's important to get there.
You know and that's again theneuroscience of it, tim that you
know other people are alwayslooking at us and our behavior
by kind of interpreting orpredicting who and what we are,
(49:15):
and they're constantly lookingto be proven correct.
Tim (49:19):
Yes.
Joanne (49:20):
So even if we do change something about our behavior,
just changing it once or twiceis not going to change another
person's perspective of us.
It's something that we need tointegrate into who we are and
our behavior every single timein order for them to go oh wow,
maybe joanne has changed.
She's now.
Tim (49:39):
She's now doing this and she's not doing that yeah, and,
and, and, with and, and, withthat 360.
You know, today most peoplearen't willing to just come out
and say what, what's on theirmind about how you're doing
things, how you're treating them.
It gives them a little bit offreedom to be honest, without
(50:00):
feeling like they're.
If we're in this courtattacking somebody or putting
somebody down.
This is truly how I see youcoming across, without the guilt
of saying you're doing it wrong, right.
Joanne (50:17):
But I also and I also think it's an important trait
for managers to continually begoing out there, whether it's
with a 360 or not, and beingcurious around their behavior
and the impact that it has.
And I find that, you know, Imyself, when I have a team
reporting to me, often on ourone-on-ones I would say hey,
(50:38):
how's my management styleworking for you, what are you
liking about it and what might Ido differently, moving forward,
in order for us to have, youknow, a more productive, better?
You know, you fill in the blankkind of relationship, and nine
times out of 10, initially Timthey're like no, it's great.
It the blank kind ofrelationship, and nine times out
of 10 initially Tim they'relike no, it's great, it's
fantastic, excellent.
You know, just keep it going,it's like okay, well, if I keep
(51:03):
asking the question and you knowand this is you know maybe I'll
get more information.
And I think people will tend toopen up if managers have that
perspective when they're askingthese kinds of questions and
then when they are giveninformation that they maybe
don't like or weren't expectingor that might come across as a
little bit of a criticism, don'ttake it personally, just be
appreciative of that feedbackbecause now they can act on it.
(51:23):
You know, now they know aboutit.
I think people often feel well,there's a research into this as
well that people actuallyprefer the negative feedback to
the positive feedback.
Sometimes, you know, I use aratio of one to three.
So for every piece of everythree pieces of positive,
(51:43):
reinforcement or positivefeedback, I usually give one
negative or one constructive,Because I think doing and
communicating that way with myteam creates a balance.
You know, they know where theystand, they know fundamentally,
I know that they're doing agreat job and here's a couple of
other areas or areas that Ithink that they can improve on,
(52:04):
and delivering feedback in thatway just comes across as a lot
more authentic, you know, a lotmore real.
And honestly, tim, nine timesout of 10, when I give someone
some feedback that might comeacross as negative feedback or
criticism, you know they willoften turn to me and say oh, wow
, I'm so, so glad that you toldme that.
Thank you.
You know I wasn't aware of theimpact that I was having.
(52:26):
Now I know it, I can change itand I can, you know, be better,
do better, you know, whatever.
So, but it's all in how yougive the feedback, and that's
where you know how to givefeedback effectively.
Training is is super importantfor folks as well, because you
want to leave people feelinglike you're, that you truly care
about their growth anddevelopment.
(52:48):
Yeah, not that you're trying tocriticize them not that you're
trying to criticize them.
Tim (52:56):
For me, when I was much younger, that was definitely an
area that I needed help andimprovement on because I'm
generally pretty direct and so Ilaugh because that was
definitely an area that I wastold almost immediately I had to
improve on.
Joanne (53:17):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I've come across people in thepast that have said, well,
that's just how I am, I'm direct, kind of deal with it.
And as a manager, you have someauthority there, you have some
power associated with yourposition.
So for just to go out and say,well, deal with it, that's just
me, you know.
For my mind, that's just notenough.
(53:38):
You know, managers have anobligation to do more in that
respect and to make theircommunication and how they're
coming across much better, in away that engages folks and
builds people up rather thantear people down.
Tim (53:57):
Exactly Well, joanne.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
Where can people buy your bookand where can they find you to
work with you?
Joanne (54:07):
Oh, thank you.
Well, they can find my website,which is theleadershiprecipecom
.
That's where they can also getaccess to that assessment that I
talked about early, and theycan get my book from there as
well.
But I am on Amazon and thetitle is Game On Is Management
your Best Career Play?
And I truly hope that folksenjoy the book, that they get a
(54:28):
lot out of it and that itenables them to create the best
possible legacy that they mightand be the best possible
managers that they can be.
Tim (54:39):
Well, again, I think the book is a tremendous tool and
I'm sure that you know thosethat buy it and go through it
will get a ton out of it and getbetter from that perspective.
But I really enjoyed theconversation.
Joanne (54:54):
Me too.
Tim (54:56):
I can't wait till we can connect again and again.
Thanks so much for your time.
Joanne (55:00):
My pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Tim (55:04):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free e-book Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theFormula for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasa power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast dedicated
to helping you unlock the powerof effective public speaking.
I'm Tim Newman, a recoveringcollege professor turned
communication coach, and I'mthrilled to guide you on your
journey to becoming a powerfulcommunicator.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support.
It truly means the world to me.
If you have questions or if youwant something covered on the
podcast, send me a message.
(00:29):
Please visit timnewmanspeakscomto get your free ebook the Top
21 Challenges for PublicSpeakers and how to Overcome
them.
Today's guest is Joanne Merrick.
Joanne brings over 25 years ofglobal experience in leadership
development, having deliveredtransformative programs across
(00:50):
22 countries and five continents.
As founder of the LeadershipRecipe, she helps individuals
and teams enhance communication,emotional intelligence and
performance.
Her background, spanningleadership roles at Deloitte,
amazon and Juniper Networks,fuels her fresh
neuroscience-driven approach.
In her debut book, game On IsManagement your Best Career
(01:11):
Plate, she empowersprofessionals to make informed
decisions about stepping intomanagement roles.
Joanne, welcome to the show.
I'm so happy to have you ontoday.
Joanne (01:20):
Thank you so much, Tim.
It's great to be here.
When you say five continentsand 22 countries, man, that's a
lot of frequent flyer points.
Tim (01:29):
It is, and you know, that's where I really wanted to start
with.
I mean, you've lived in allparts of the world.
How has that, you know, changedhow you view communication and
leadership, or has it changed?
Joanne (01:45):
change how you view communication and leadership, or
has it changed?
Oh, it totally has.
My accent.
For listeners that might bewondering by now, my accent is
Australian, so I like to pointthat out.
Otherwise they're wonderingwhat my accent is and they're
not really listening to anythingI'm saying.
Ask me how I know.
Yes, so I left Australia about17 years ago and I moved to Hong
Kong of all places.
(02:05):
I lived there for three and ahalf years and that was a real
transition for me, even thoughat that point I'd spent a lot of
time training and traveling inand around Asia and all parts of
Asia, from India, japan, china,thailand, you know, you name it
.
It was still, you know, asurprise for me.
It was still a definite kind ofculture shift from what I had
(02:27):
been used to in Australia andthen to move from Hong Kong to
where I'm now, in the US.
I've been here for about 13years now.
Again, it's a different culture.
You know we speak the samelanguage, but it's a very
different culture here in the USfrom what it is in Australia.
And I think the biggest lessonfor me in those moves has been
(02:52):
how do I integrate myself intoother cultures as quickly as I
possibly can and to do that Ifind something in common with
folks as quickly as I possiblycan, and I also believe that the
onus is on the communicator tobe understood.
It's not me expecting them tounderstand me.
(03:14):
My responsibility is absolutelyto be understood and I truly
believe that that's important inthe realm of management that I
know we're going to talk abouttoday as well, but you know it's
about it's my responsibility toget my message across, to have
to be accountable for the impactthat I'm having, and that's
been, I think, one of thebiggest lessons from living in a
couple of different countries.
Tim (03:35):
Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because you know, as we
talked before we came onlinehere, you know, knowing yourself
and knowing how you communicate.
You know first you have to knowwho you are.
But it's not about you, it'sabout your audience and and
knowing, knowing them and makingsure that that that you're
doing what you can so that theycan understand you and and kind
(03:58):
of get where you're coming fromand and and we're going to get a
little bit more in depth intothat, because you're some really
good work from a neuroscienceperspective that I'm fascinated
by, right.
But one of your roles was withAmazon and you know, were you
(04:18):
the person that was in charge ofprofessional development for
all of Amazon or for a specificdivision?
Explain kind of what you did.
Joanne (04:28):
Sure, I was initially hired.
I lived in California at thetime, in San Jose.
I was initially hired to lookafter learning and development
for Lab 126, which is thedevices function, for want of a
better word.
That's the group that had whenI, when I went there, they had
just launched the alexa.
(04:48):
Do you remember the, the toweralexa?
And this was also the groupthat was responsible for the
rollout um and creation of um,the kindle, which was also one
of my favorite tools.
I actually still have one ofthe if not the, I think it's
maybe the second edition kindlethat ever came on the market
Very proud of that ancient tool.
(05:09):
Now, I was always fascinated bythe fact that you could get a
whole book on one device or anumber of books on one device.
So I felt destined to go tothat organization.
I was very fortunate to workthere for about three and a half
years.
It was about 12,500 peopleultimately under my stewardship,
(05:30):
around about 2,000 managers allup that we were educating all
around the world.
So that was a wonderful careermove for me and a fantastic
organization.
Great experiences there.
Tim (05:46):
So what were some of your challenges in terms of training
and development?
You know, with a team that bigagain, based all around the
world, what were some of thechallenges that you faced and
how did you overcome them,specifically from that
communication and managementleadership perspective, I think
you really need to work with thebusiness to find out what the
(06:07):
business needs from a learningand leadership development
perspective.
Joanne (06:10):
You know you need to get , you need to build
relationships with leadershipwithin that organization.
They need to know what valueyou might add to their
respective functions or theirrespective businesses within the
broader business.
And then, of course, you needto deliver.
Tim, like anything else.
Right, it's like this is what Ibelieve I can do and this is
(06:30):
what I'm going.
This is what I want to do, thisis what I'm planning to do.
Get their buy-in every step ofthe way, and I think, initially,
building those relationshipswith the leadership and then
delivering on what you sayyou're going to do is a really
important element.
It was really important to mysuccess anyway.
Tim (06:52):
You know buying is so important.
Like you said, I was at aconference last week and we were
just having kind of aroundtable talk and I talked
about how I accomplishedsomething you know a number of
years ago, which you know someplaces are doing, some places
aren't.
And the question was how?
How did I do that?
And I got into the the nuts andbolts of it and halfway through
(07:16):
I said, first off, we have tostop because I missed the most
important step we have to havethe buy-in, because it doesn't
work if we don't have the buy-in.
If I didn't have everybody onthe team buying into this, it
wasn't going to work.
And sometimes buy-in happensright away and sometimes it
takes a little bit of time Onceyou show that what you're doing
(07:38):
and what you're talking about isactually going to work.
Sometimes that's how buy-inhappens.
But if you don't have buy-in,it doesn't matter how good your
idea is or how beneficial thatchange is going to be, it's not
going to work.
Joanne (07:54):
Absolutely, and I think there's a real opportunity to be
innovative around what you candeliver, like by speaking and
engaging and getting the buy-inof other folks, and an example
of that was there was aparticular area of the business
that had principal engineers.
(08:15):
These are people that have gotat least one PhD, maybe many
more.
They've worked really hardthroughout their career.
They're crazy.
You know smart people and youknow they work with a lot of
other.
You know teams of individuals,whether they're reporting
(08:36):
directly to them or that theyjust have influence over.
You know they're not part ofthe formal structure, and one
thing the business was noticingwas that these people were great
managers and leaders, but theyfelt that they needed to come up
with all of the solutionsthemselves.
They felt that they needed tocome up with all of the ideas
(08:58):
because they were oftenliterally the smartest person in
the room, you know.
So what their leadership wantedto do was have me train them in
how to bring about innovativethought in others.
So we had a program we calledCoaching for Development, which
we were rolling out internallyacross the organization.
(09:19):
So what I did was, rather thandeliver that program, I tweaked
it up a little bit, added a fewcomponents and called the
program Coaching for theDevelopment of Ideas, and we ran
that across the principalnetwork and it was a fantastic
way to train really, reallysmart people to have better
conversations, to be more kindof inclusive, to be more curious
(09:42):
about what their teams broughtto the table the ideas their
teams brought to the table andfor them ultimately to not
really feel like they had tocome up with all the solutions
themselves.
In fact, they realized at theend of it all that they could
actually get better solutionsfrom engaging and interacting
with their teams.
So it was a win-win foreveryone.
(10:04):
But that was an example of aprogram that required a little
bit of innovation, lots ofconversation and collaboration
with the leadership and wasreally about solving a real
business problem.
Tim (10:17):
And and you giving up control or and I'm not, I don't
even know that control is right.
We're giving up that, that, thewhole idea that everything
rests on your shoulders and ifyou don't have the solution,
then it's going to fall apart.
That's a tough obstacle toovercome, especially for those
(10:38):
people that are that smart orgenerally the type A
personalities that are generallythe ones that have you know,
have always had, you know, theideas, have always been able to
communicate their ideas, andthat's one of the reasons why
they get into those positions.
And now you're asking them togive up some of that.
That's a big ask.
Joanne (10:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's not easy, but they need tosee the light at the end of the
tunnel and know that it's not atrain coming in the opposite
direction.
They need to see the benefit inthe collaboration, the
communication, the engagement,the influence, the bringing
about of ideas in other peoplefor the betterment of themselves
(11:22):
and, obviously, their functionsand the business.
So it's a personal journey thatthey need to go through as well
and that's why we would oftenrun programs that went over, you
know, maybe a two, three dayperiod Not all day, obviously,
but two or three days.
We've still got to get our jobsdone, but it was an engaging
(11:42):
experience for them that theyengaged in together with their
leaders, and that, I think, isanother important component of
building learning to givefeedback appropriately or how to
(12:06):
communicate or how to, you know, set visions or how to set
goals or whatever.
They've done it before.
They've attended training maybebefore in their careers.
But to be involved in thosekinds of programs with their
teams has this powerful, reallyengaging element to it, powerful
(12:27):
, really engaging element to it,and it's a win-win for their
teams and it's also a win-winfor the leaders, because they
get to see their teams functionunder a completely different
light and they're all learningthe same thing right.
They start singing from thesame hymn book, so to speak, and
they create a language.
They communicate in a way thatjust becomes ultimately more
efficient and more effective,because they've all been part of
(12:47):
the same experience.
Tim (12:48):
Right and it builds trust.
It builds trust that you knowtrust from the leadership to the
team that shows that they trustthem to do what they need to do
and that they're going to havethe ownership or the buy-in and
entrust the team with theleaders, that if something
(13:09):
doesn't work, it's not going toblow up in their face.
They're working through theseissues and problems together.
Success comes together and itreally does take the entire team
to take it to the next level.
That's incredible, you know,and we talk about communication
most of the time.
(13:30):
You know from us speaking right, but there are so many other
aspects of good communicationthat's critical, such as
listening and nonverbal, facialexpressions, body language, etc.
What have you noticed in yourcareer that people could use
some help on in terms of goodcommunication and what have you
(13:52):
noticed from people that do itreally well?
Joanne (13:56):
I think the people that do it really well.
There's a congruence betweenwhat they're saying, what their
faces are expressing, what theirbodies are showing.
At the same time, there's thiscongruence between those
elements that enables the personthat they're communicating with
to kind of feel at ease, tofeel comfortable, to feel valued
(14:18):
, to really feel the trust asyou mentioned before, and kind
of they're literally morecapable of opening up and
engaging and having a betterconversation.
The biggest challenge that I'vefound with a lot of leaders,
especially new managers, they'renot as self-aware, potentially,
around what is going on withtheir body physically while
(14:42):
they're having conversationswith other people.
And you know the classicexample is when you're sitting
across from someone and you'rekind of face-to-face to them but
their body is sideways or youknow they're looking out the
window half the time rather thanlooking at you, or they've got
their arms folded in front oftheir chest kind of in, kind of
(15:04):
like a self-protection, you knowkind of mode.
I have encouraged leaders to,as uncomfortable as they might
be in the moment, right, theymight feel like closing down,
having a facing a differentdirection from the person that
they're talking to.
They may feel like they want todo that but they can't because
(15:28):
their main aim is to communicateeffectively and to have the
other person feel comfortable inengaging and communicating with
them.
So they need to do whateverthey can do, especially as it
relates to their own bodylanguage, to enable that
increased level of comfort inthe person that they're
communicating with, and it'shard for some people.
Tim (15:51):
I see that, and how much do you think that that transfers
over to you know the youngerprofessionals and how they learn
how to communicate in terms ofyou know when they move up into
those types of positions or whenthey have to have tough
conversations or that okay, soyou know when they move up into
those types of positions, orwhen they have to have tough
conversations or that okay, soyou know, I've been in this type
of scenario five times, andfour of those times this is how
(16:14):
the person who was in that roleacted.
So that's probably, you know,my go-to as well.
Joanne (16:23):
Yeah, I think it starts with self-awareness and being
curious around the impact thatyou're having on other people,
and I'm a huge advocate of 360assessments, especially for
managers and new managers, asthey're starting to learn a
trade and it is a learnabletrade to be a great manager.
(16:43):
It's not something thatnecessarily comes naturally to
everyone, but it is somethingthat can be learned, and the
impact that managers have onother people can be is a
significant element of the role,and you can have a fantastic
impact on other people, but youcan also have a horrible impact
on other people as well.
(17:04):
So, if you're choosing tobecome a manager, you need to be
open to learning about what itis you're doing well in your
role, what's working about yourcommunication style, but also
what's not going well and maybewhat's not working in your
communication style and thenadjust it and be open to
(17:25):
adjusting it, you know.
Tim (17:27):
And I love the idea of the 360 evaluations.
You know the Myers-Briggs, theDiscus.
You know those types ofassessments as well Because you
know you as a team member canlearn how you know your coworker
or your manager or leaderthinks same with you, and then
you can kind of mold yourinteractions to get the best out
(17:51):
of them from that perspective.
Joanne (17:56):
Absolutely.
And in communicating withothers myself, I've also kind of
made a lot of assumptions thatwhat I'm saying is actually
what's being heard Right, andthen they might reflect back to
me what I said in an activelistening kind of sequence,
(18:17):
because that's what they've beentaught to do, right.
So they actively listen andthey do that really well and
they do reflect what I said, butthey don't necessarily reflect
what I meant, right.
So that means that I'veabsolutely miscommunicated.
You know, there's an equationout there for the engineers that
might be listening that yourintent of what you communicate,
or what you want to communicate,needs to equal your impact.
(18:40):
And if it's not, then there'ssomething wrong with how you're
communicating it and it's up toyou to do something about fixing
that and being open to people'sfeedback, being open to
understanding that what you sayis not necessarily how it might
be interpreted by other people,and adjusting that along the way
is the way that we learn.
Tim (19:02):
Yeah, and it kind of makes me think and I've said this a
number of times I don't think,especially from the younger
professional perspective.
They spend enough time thinkingabout who they are as
individuals.
Right you know what theirvalues are, how they think, how
they come to make decisions,what they like, what they don't
(19:26):
like, et cetera, especially froma professional perspective.
And that really does inform howthey communicate as well,
because if they don't know, itcomes back to the idea of being
self-aware or the idea ofemotional intelligence.
Joanne (19:43):
Right, absolutely, and it's been.
If they want to be a manager, Ibelieve the onus is on them to
be more curious than ever aboutwhat impact they're having on
other people, because managers,just in the very nature of the
role, have a responsibility todo that because of the
(20:04):
significant impact they have onother people, right.
Tim (20:08):
And is this where the whole idea of the idea of
neuroscience comes into play andunderstanding how we react to
those types of situations reactto those types of situations.
Joanne (20:34):
I think neuroscience came about for me back in 2010
or 2011.
I was introduced to the conceptof neuroscience and
neuroscience as it relates toleadership and management, and
what I loved about it when Ifirst started to hear of it was
that a lot of what I'd beenteaching by this point, you know
, for 10 or 15 years was nowbacked by science.
You know I'd been teachingphilosophies and approaches by
(20:56):
really respected individualslike Stephen Covey and Ken
Blanchard, and you know manyothers that had a significant
impact on the leadership andmanagement development realm.
Now the science was there toback it up, and what I felt my
obligation was, now that I hadbeen introduced to this, was to
(21:18):
make the science available tomanagers and leaders to help
them be better managers andleaders, and it resonated really
well with the, especially withthe engineering platform that I
was working with you know at atthe time and, tim, I can give
you an example, if you like whenI was one of the.
Neuroscience tells us thatautonomy, or having a sense of
(21:41):
autonomy, is really importantfor the human brain.
I mean, you can imagineyourself right when you feel
like you're in control, when youfeel like you have choices in
front of you, you feel better,right, you know, you feel like
you're valued, you feel likeyou're engaging better with
others.
You feel like you're in morecontrol.
(22:03):
And one of the lectures that Iwas partaking in when I was
getting interested and certifiedin the topic was through the
Middlesex University.
We were having a conversationon autonomy and its impact on
the human brain, and one of thegentlemen in the class told us a
(22:24):
story about his son, and thestory goes that he had been
partaking in all of thesetraining programs himself.
So I knew the importance ofautonomy.
Autonomy for me was having asense of choice, having a sense
of control over a situation.
He got home one night from workand his four-year-old son was
(22:48):
playing on the staircase intheir home, and he greeted his
son when he got home and then hewent to his kitchen and started
helping his wife with dinner.
It was time to eat dinner, sohe called out to his son to you
know, come to the dinner tableto eat his dinner.
The son was having so much funon the staircase that he said no
, dad, I'm not doing that, Iwant to eat my dinner here on
(23:09):
the stairs.
Well, it was part.
You know we've all been there,right.
So the father part of you knowtheir traditional values was to
eat dinner at the dinner table.
So the fact that his son didn'twant to do that was kind of
unacceptable.
So he could have taken thiskind of authoritarian power you
know, control kind of approachto things.
(23:30):
But he decided not to do that,given what he had learned.
So he said to his son okay, youmust eat your dinner at the
dinner table, right?
So he was setting expectations,very clear expectations up
front.
And he said but I tell you what, tonight you don't have to sit
at your normal seat at thedinner table, you can sit
(23:50):
wherever you like.
You pick the chair, you sitthere, no problems.
The son was interested, why?
Because even over such a simplescenario of eating dinner at
the dinner table, the son all ofa sudden had a choice as to
where he was going to sit and asense of control over himself
and the situation that he'dfound himself in.
But the father didn't stopthere.
(24:12):
He was really smart.
He then said okay, not only canyou choose where you sit, but
you can choose where daddy sitsat the dinner table.
Tonight you can choose wheremommy sits at the dinner table.
Tonight that kid was at thatdinner table so quickly.
Why?
Because he had some controlover his parents, that you know
over such a simple scenario.
(24:33):
So how do you translate thatinto a management scenario?
I think there's a lot ofmanagers out there that just
like to tell their employeeswhat to do, tell them what to do
, how to do it, when to do it.
When, as we were kind oftalking about before, if
managers go to their team andsay, hey, how might you start
this particular task, or whatmight be your next couple of
(24:56):
steps, or what ideas are youcoming up with as to how we
might solve for this problem?
Right, the minute you startasking those kinds of questions
and engaging with your employees, being curious and open to what
they've got to say, yeah,automatically, not only may you
come up with better ideas thanyou might have anticipated in
(25:18):
the first place, but you're alsoget you've also got a team of
people now with you completelyon board, because they're more.
They've got that autonomy rightyou know, feeling micromanaged
and the impact that it has onthe human brain with you
completely on board becausethey've got that autonomy Right.
You know, feeling micromanagedand the impact that it has on
the human brain is just terribleand maybe we can all relate to
scenarios like that where wefeel or have been micromanaged,
(25:40):
and how bad that can be.
Tim (25:41):
Yeah, for me, micromanagement, that's instant
infuriation.
I mean instant, I mean itdoesn't take long at all.
You know, and I look at it froma perspective of you know,
we've been hired to, we've beenhired for a reason, you know,
give us that opportunity to dowhat we do, obviously under some
(26:05):
constraints, you know.
Maybe there's time limits,maybe there's budget limits
there's, you know, within those,you know confines, but allow us
to do it the way that we wantto do it and be productive from
that perspective, you know it's,and just get out of their way.
(26:26):
Exactly.
Joanne (26:26):
Just let them be successful.
Let them do what they, whatyou've hired them to do, right?
I find it a refreshing approach.
To be honest, tim, it doesn'thappen as often as I would like
it to, to be honest, but whenpeople start asking me questions
and get curious about what Ithink you know it just I just
open up.
I just think it's reallyrefreshing.
Tim (26:47):
But I think it's kind of changing a little bit, at least
from what I see.
You know, because I'm somebodythat asks a lot of questions,
you know, in whatever scenariothat I'm in, really to kind of
to clarify it, you know to to tosee what's going on for me, to
(27:08):
start thinking about whateverissue it is, and I'm somebody
that that allows people to justto to do you figure out the way
that that works best for you.
You know what, what's yourtimeframe?
So if I say you know we need tohave this done by by Thursday
at noon and it's Tuesday, youknow, show me how you're going
(27:33):
to get it done, or or, or do it,and if you don't get it done,
then we'll sit down and have aconversation.
Okay, what?
What were your steps?
How can I help you better to?
You know to to meet thoseexpectations.
You know to to get to where youneed to be, but allowing people
to, especially, you know,younger professionals today.
You know when I say instantaggravation or infuriation from
(27:57):
being micromanaged, from myexperience they're the same way.
They may not know how to dosomething, but give them an
opportunity to kind of think itthrough.
Give them an opportunity to trydifferent ways to come up with
solving the solution, whateverit is that they're working on,
(28:17):
and then, if that doesn't work,sit down and help guide them and
mentor them from thatperspective.
Joanne (28:23):
Yeah, I think it's situational too.
You know, like when you've gota new hire coming to the
organization, you may notnecessarily immediately sit down
and say, hey, so how do youthink you should do this?
You know you might need to givethose kinds of people a little
bit more guidance, but you know,or if you have had someone
who's reporting to you and hasbeen for quite some time, the
(28:45):
last thing you're going to do ismicromanage them, because
that's just going to put youboth offside at the end of the
day.
So it is situational, butthat's part of being a great
manager.
I call it the manager antennae.
Oh yeah, you know you've gotyour antenna out there and
(29:05):
you're a little bit more awareof what's going on with you and
the impact and what you're doingto engage with other people and
you need to be adaptable andflexible in your style to enable
them to thrive and get the mostout of them in their employment
right.
So it's a very differentperspective from that of, like
an individual contributor whoall they really need to do is
(29:28):
worry about themselves, whatthey're doing, what they've got
to do, what projects they'reworking on.
You know how they might goabout engaging or completing
those, Whereas when you're amanager, it's just like not
about you anymore, Right, like,not about you anymore.
It's about getting the most outof other people, about getting
results and outcomes, sometimesin ways that or in situations
(29:51):
where the people that arereporting to you don't want to
do the work or even want to beengaged in the project.
So there's a lot of complexityto being a great manager that I
feel a lot of people don't givedue consideration to before
jumping in to the role, and Ithink it's important for folks
(30:17):
individual contributors that arethinking about doing so to
really be curious about the roleand what the full end-to-end
components of the role are.
Tim (30:29):
Yeah, I don't know how realistic this is, but I always
think it's our job as leadersand mentors to help and train
the ones that aren't managershow to be managers before they
even get there.
(30:50):
This is the process.
These are the things.
Bring them into some relevantconversations.
Let's just take budgeting, forexample.
If you've never had to dealwith a complex budget, bring
them in and say, okay, here'sthe deal, here's the big picture
.
These are the things I'mthinking about over here.
These, this is what has to bedone over here, and we need to
(31:12):
bring in this much revenue or weneed to cut this much from the
budget.
These are the things that we'rethinking about.
What, how would you go aboutdoing that?
Or what are you thinking fromfrom your position, and
understand that it's not alwaysgoing to work out in our favor.
You know, it may not work outfor me this time, but if it's
what's best for the team, ifit's what's best for the
(31:33):
organization, that is what it is, and we may get what we want
next time.
But bring them in and teachthem some of those things that
have to be thought about interms of making those decisions.
Joanne (31:45):
Right yeah, things that have to be thought about in
terms of making those decisions.
Right yeah, you might've heardof the 70-20-10 rule.
That's out there, tim, aroundadult education is that 70% of
what we learn is actually on thejob, engaging in what we do,
20% from coaches or mentors orother significant people in our
lives and, much to my chagrin asan educator, only 10% of what
(32:05):
we learn is in the classroom.
However, that 10% is a reallyimportant component, because you
learn in a management programwhat you need to do, how you
need to do it, as a realistictimeframe or realistic
experience as the trainers canprovide for you, and then you go
(32:26):
out to the world and, and youknow, you engage in that.
I call it like you have atoolkit of management skills and
you need to draw on thattoolkit at any given time under
any given circumstance.
So there's a number of thingsthat folks need to learn, but I
do wonder, tim you might relateto this as well that whatever
(32:49):
happened to our apprenticeshipculture?
You know plumbers, electricians.
You know we would not let anelectrician into our home unless
they were fully certified,right Right, they could just do
too much damage.
So, or a plumber, or you knowwhatever else for that matter,
but I think the way that theylearn is possibly one of the
(33:12):
best ways that adults do learn.
You know, like to your point,where you do do a form of
apprenticeship or you getinsight or time with your
manager, where they engage withyou on the management element or
management component, the puremanagement component of their
role, and budgeting is a greatexample.
Tim (33:29):
Yeah, yeah, you know, coming from the education
industry, you know where I spentthe majority of my career.
You know there is no trainingwhatsoever for people that
number one, that are professors.
Number two, that go from beinga professor into administration.
So you know, most of us weren'tever taught how to teach.
(33:51):
But we're teaching.
Most of us, you know, as we gofrom being faculty into
administration, have nevermanaged anything outside of our
own self.
And now we're in charge.
First off, we're in charge ofteaching students it's kind of
kind of important and then we'rein charge of of managing
(34:12):
faculty members and budgets andand all these types of things,
with no idea how to do it andwe're just expected to do well
and we wonder why some of theissues we have, yeah, we haven't
Make it up as we go along,right.
It's.
You know it's bizarre.
(34:32):
So you know, unless you havesome innate skills of being able
to analyze things, being ableto manage people, you can have
some of that, but you still needto learn, you still need to
understand.
You know human behavior.
You still need to learn how toaccomplish things, how to get
that buy-in, how to managebudget, what the priorities are,
(34:54):
you know what the president'spriorities may not be, what your
priorities are and being ableto communicate those types of
things and I think across theboard and obviously those types
of things happen in privatebusiness as well that you know.
Most of the time, the managersare people that have done their
job really well.
They're just promoted, yeah,and with no training or no
(35:17):
skills, and we wonder whythere's such you know turmoil.
Joanne (35:23):
Yeah, you know, and it's a completely different skill
set.
Yes turmoil, yeah, and it's acompletely different skill set.
I would hope that there aresome things that individual
contributors can do in order tostart growing and developing
management and leadership skillswhile they're individual
contributors.
First of all, there's a number,If a lot of great companies
offer fantastic trainingprograms for them.
That's great, but also there'sa number of institutes out there
(35:46):
, such as Harvard, that haveonline courses that are free.
You know they're a Udemyprogram.
I mean, I'm not associated oraffiliated with any of these,
but I have found some fantasticfree online programs that at
least start opening the door tohelping individual contributors
understand what the skills arethat they need to develop and
(36:07):
then start putting them intopractice, whether it's if it's
in the working environmentfantastic, you know, but a lot
of people don't feel comfortableusing or practicing some of
those skills in the workenvironment.
So start practicing them at home.
You know, facilitate, forexample, facilitate a
conversation with your familyover an important topic.
Tim (36:28):
Like dinner.
Joanne (36:30):
Like dinner, right?
Yeah, Start doing you knowthings like that Engaging your
team, Organizing events orfunctions, Getting people
together, Getting feedback fromthem on how you're communicating
, have them watch your bodylanguage, for example, when
you're communicating things youknow.
(36:51):
Engage with a safe community offolks in developing these
skills so that when and if youdo become a manager, you're so
much more practiced Right andyou know, when you become a
manager, you still need topractice.
I think the old adage, Tim, isamateurs practice to get things
(37:12):
right, but professionals theystill practice, and that's to
keep from getting things wrong.
Exactly, Exactly.
And this also lends itself tothe neuroscience of things too.
We're developing neuralnetworks every single second of
every single day, and thoseneural networks need to be
created, recreated and recreatedover time and refreshed over
(37:33):
time, in order for them tobecome just a part of who we are
.
Tim (37:37):
You know, and that's such an important point, I mentioned
that I was at a conference lastweek and what I talked about.
One of the things I talkedabout was, you know, being a
recovering college professor, soI don't have the interaction
with people that I used to.
The majority of my interactionis like this, and I said I I
(37:58):
really miss that, that actualhuman, face-to-face interaction,
sitting down with somebody,shaking somebody's hand, you
know being in a room with agroup of people to be able to
have a discussion, where youknow these types of discussions
are great, but there's to me,there's, there's, there's really
something different and specialabout you know being in the
same room with somebody andhaving those types of
(38:21):
conversations, and if we don'tdo that on a regular basis, what
does that do to our our, our,our levels of of communication?
I mean, it's, it's it's so muchdifferent.
It's so much different having,you know, let's just say we had
10 people in here.
Having a conversation in hereis very different than having a
(38:41):
conversation with 10 people in aroom.
Joanne (38:43):
Absolutely no, it really is.
And it's so important forpotential managers to want to be
in and around and engage withpeople, because that's the
nature of the job, that's whatyou do and you know, I
completely get it there are somepeople that feel less
comfortable in that realm andsome people that feel more
(39:05):
comfortable, but again, it's alearnable skill.
So it's important, you know,for potential managers to know
that you'll need to be in frontof people, you'll need to have
difficult conversations fromtime to time.
You'll need to think outsideyourself.
(39:26):
One of the opportunities that Ithink a lot of managers don't
necessarily realize up front isthat they, more than anyone else
on the planet, I believe, havethe opportunity to unleash
potential, particularly untappedpotential, in their direct
reports, and I think that thatis possibly one of the most
(39:48):
legacy-giving opportunities thatany manager might have, because
they can potentially bringabout the very best in the
people that work for them, whenthose people didn't realize that
they had that very best in themin the first place.
And that is so, so exciting.
(40:08):
And, on the neuroscience frontof things, there's a big impact
on the human brain when we'reinteracting and engaging with
someone else who we know reallybelieves in us, right.
You know there's a lot ofresearch here.
You know you might even relateto it yourself.
Yes, when you are working withsomeone that you know holds you
(40:31):
in high regard or in high esteemor truly values what you bring
to the table, you're actuallymore inclined to do a better job
.
Yes, Absolutely.
And what a fantastic thing for amanager to be able to do for
one human to be able to do toanother human to another human.
Tim (40:51):
Yeah, and that's something from my perspective as an
educator I had to keep top ofmind.
I didn't want to let a studentthink that I didn't think that
they could do something Right.
Because, whether I thought theycould or not, that really
(41:14):
affects, like you said, how theyviewed themselves, how much
effort they were going to putinto it and how they viewed
actually moving forward.
Joanne (41:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've done many things that Inever thought I could ever
possibly do, but someone elsebelieved in me enough to believe
that I could do it, and youknow what I did.
Someone else believed in meenough to believe that I could
do it, and you know what I did.
And I just think, for me, thoseindividuals are amongst the
most amazing human beingswalking this planet, and I will
be forever thankful to thembecause they saw something in me
(41:46):
that I didn't, at leastinitially.
I surprised myself, maybe Isurprised them, I don't know,
but whatever happened, it worked.
Tim (41:58):
So that really kind of goes to one of the pieces in your
book that really kind ofresonated with me.
We talked about the mostimportant skills for being a
manager Communication,collaboration, emotional
intelligence and the whole ideaof innovation and leadership and
as I was reading and thinkingabout it, I don't know that you
(42:22):
could have one if you don't havethe others.
Joanne (42:26):
Right, they definitely overlap in quite significant
ways, I agree.
Tim (42:43):
Getting back to what we started with, the whole idea
that it's about the people, it'sabout the relationships, it's
about the relationships, it'sabout knowing them and making
sure that there's thatconnection, finding that
commonality and building thatrelationship.
That is, to me, that's the realbattle, because unless you're
(43:09):
an architect, unless you're asurgeon, unless you're an
architect, unless you're asurgeon, a rocket scientist,
what we do is it's aboutbuilding connections, building
relationships, and once you dothat, everything else takes care
of itself.
Joanne (43:28):
Yeah, I think one thing that's fascinating for me about
the role of a manager is most ofus, at some point in our lives,
have a manager.
Yes, at some point All of ushave parents too.
I believe our parents are oftenour first managers in life, and
(43:55):
they're the ones that we learna lot from and ultimately kind
of enable us to become who weare, and I believe managers have
the opportunity and have assignificant impact in some
respects as parents do.
Tim (44:05):
You know, when you look at the functions of management,
they're doing all of it, whetherwe realize it or not.
Now, once you become agrandparent, you don't have to
do any of that stuff.
You just get to have fun.
Joanne (44:18):
That's right, and have extra sugar.
It's all ice cream and candy,exactly.
Tim (44:22):
Exactly.
Joanne (44:24):
I can absolutely relate to that as well.
I think people, maybe I wouldhope that people start taking
the role of a manager in a muchmore serious light and that it's
actually eventually given thekudos and the credence if that's
the right word to to be a very,to be understood as a very
(44:45):
significant role in in someone'slife and for people to take to
make a much more consciousdecision to become a manager,
knowing all of the complexitiesyou know, many of which we've
touched on today that go intothe role and do so before they
dive in.
Tim (45:04):
Yes, so you don't wake up one day and not have any idea
what's going on and you haveyour whole team breathing down
your neck because you'remicromanaging somebody.
Joanne (45:17):
Exactly, and it's so easy for good people to find
themselves in situations wherethey might be labeled as bad
managers, and I don't want thatto happen to any of your
listeners today, tim.
I believe that we're all goodpeople out there, but I do think
(45:38):
that sometimes, good peoplefind themselves in challenging
situations and they struggle outof them, and particularly as it
relates to a management role,they struggle out of them in
ways that can potentially bedetrimental to other people.
Tim (45:51):
Yes.
Joanne (45:51):
So I don't want that to happen to any of your listeners,
and obviously that's why Iwrote the book.
Tim (46:01):
Well, your book again.
I talked about this before wecame online here.
I think it's a perfect tool forpeople who are in this position
to go through and actually useit to get better now.
(46:23):
Yes, it's not something whereyou read the whole thing and
then two weeks later you startworking on things.
You can pick up pretty muchanywhere in your book, read that
chapter and start improving.
I mean, there's steps in thereto help people improve.
You know today, from the timeyou read the book.
Joanne (46:44):
I structured the book so that you know you can read the
whole thing, of course, but atthe end of each chapter there's
a reader's quest.
So this is where the game onelement right.
We don't have chapters, we havequests.
So even if folks just read thequests, they would get a general
summary of everything that wasmentioned throughout the chapter
(47:05):
.
And I think one of the mainelements of the book is the
assessment that I created.
That helps folks assess againstwhat I've identified as the key
management skills.
You know where they're at nowso that they can start to
identify where their strengthsare now and also you know areas
that they might want to work on.
(47:26):
The book is definitely the whatof management, tim.
It's not the how, because thatwould be 10 books, if not more,
but it will give some folks somedefinite insight into the role
and, as a result of that too, onmy website which I know we'll
talk about later, but I createdan assessment that folks can go
on and do an online assessmentaround that content that they
(47:49):
can also get other people toassess their capabilities, as it
relates to those key managementskills as well, in a 360 kind
of format, like we talked aboutbefore and you know my hope is
from that in you know, they'llget an idea of where they're at
now and what they need to domoving forward to become even
better.
Tim (48:07):
Yeah, and I think the whole idea of the 360 assessment is
critical for learning, becausewe can we as individuals can
fill out what we think we are.
But again, if that's not howwe're coming across, if that's
not how we're being viewed,that's not how we're being
perceived, then it doesn'treally matter.
We're not.
We could be working on all thewrong things.
Joanne (48:29):
Absolutely, and that's where I think managers need to
continuously it's like as alifelong learning journey
continuously be curious abouthow what they're doing is
perceived.
You know, other people'sperceptions, whether we agree
with them or not, are real.
Yes, and the only way that wechange another person's
perception of us is to changeour behavior.
(48:52):
And we can't change ourbehavior until we know what
other people's perceptions areExactly.
It's important to get there.
You know and that's again theneuroscience of it, tim that you
know other people are alwayslooking at us and our behavior
by kind of interpreting orpredicting who and what we are,
(49:15):
and they're constantly lookingto be proven correct.
Tim (49:19):
Yes.
Joanne (49:20):
So even if we do change something about our behavior,
just changing it once or twiceis not going to change another
person's perspective of us.
It's something that we need tointegrate into who we are and
our behavior every single timein order for them to go oh wow,
maybe joanne has changed.
She's now.
Tim (49:39):
She's now doing this and she's not doing that yeah, and,
and, and, with and, and, withthat 360.
You know, today most peoplearen't willing to just come out
and say what, what's on theirmind about how you're doing
things, how you're treating them.
It gives them a little bit offreedom to be honest, without
(50:00):
feeling like they're.
If we're in this courtattacking somebody or putting
somebody down.
This is truly how I see youcoming across, without the guilt
of saying you're doing it wrong, right.
Joanne (50:17):
But I also and I also think it's an important trait
for managers to continually begoing out there, whether it's
with a 360 or not, and beingcurious around their behavior
and the impact that it has.
And I find that, you know, Imyself, when I have a team
reporting to me, often on ourone-on-ones I would say hey,
(50:38):
how's my management styleworking for you, what are you
liking about it and what might Ido differently, moving forward,
in order for us to have, youknow, a more productive, better?
You know, you fill in the blankkind of relationship, and nine
times out of 10, initially Timthey're like no, it's great.
It the blank kind ofrelationship, and nine times out
of 10 initially Tim they'relike no, it's great, it's
fantastic, excellent.
You know, just keep it going,it's like okay, well, if I keep
(51:03):
asking the question and you knowand this is you know maybe I'll
get more information.
And I think people will tend toopen up if managers have that
perspective when they're askingthese kinds of questions and
then when they are giveninformation that they maybe
don't like or weren't expectingor that might come across as a
little bit of a criticism, don'ttake it personally, just be
appreciative of that feedbackbecause now they can act on it.
(51:23):
You know, now they know aboutit.
I think people often feel well,there's a research into this as
well that people actuallyprefer the negative feedback to
the positive feedback.
Sometimes, you know, I use aratio of one to three.
So for every piece of everythree pieces of positive,
(51:43):
reinforcement or positivefeedback, I usually give one
negative or one constructive,Because I think doing and
communicating that way with myteam creates a balance.
You know, they know where theystand, they know fundamentally,
I know that they're doing agreat job and here's a couple of
other areas or areas that Ithink that they can improve on,
(52:04):
and delivering feedback in thatway just comes across as a lot
more authentic, you know, a lotmore real.
And honestly, tim, nine timesout of 10, when I give someone
some feedback that might comeacross as negative feedback or
criticism, you know they willoften turn to me and say oh, wow
, I'm so, so glad that you toldme that.
Thank you.
You know I wasn't aware of theimpact that I was having.
(52:26):
Now I know it, I can change itand I can, you know, be better,
do better, you know, whatever.
So, but it's all in how yougive the feedback, and that's
where you know how to givefeedback effectively.
Training is is super importantfor folks as well, because you
want to leave people feelinglike you're, that you truly care
about their growth anddevelopment.
(52:48):
Yeah, not that you're trying tocriticize them not that you're
trying to criticize them.
Tim (52:56):
For me, when I was much younger, that was definitely an
area that I needed help andimprovement on because I'm
generally pretty direct and so Ilaugh because that was
definitely an area that I wastold almost immediately I had to
improve on.
Joanne (53:17):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I've come across people in thepast that have said, well,
that's just how I am, I'm direct, kind of deal with it.
And as a manager, you have someauthority there, you have some
power associated with yourposition.
So for just to go out and say,well, deal with it, that's just
me, you know.
For my mind, that's just notenough.
(53:38):
You know, managers have anobligation to do more in that
respect and to make theircommunication and how they're
coming across much better, in away that engages folks and
builds people up rather thantear people down.
Tim (53:57):
Exactly Well, joanne.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
Where can people buy your bookand where can they find you to
work with you?
Joanne (54:07):
Oh, thank you.
Well, they can find my website,which is theleadershiprecipecom
.
That's where they can also getaccess to that assessment that I
talked about early, and theycan get my book from there as
well.
But I am on Amazon and thetitle is Game On Is Management
your Best Career Play?
And I truly hope that folksenjoy the book, that they get a
(54:28):
lot out of it and that itenables them to create the best
possible legacy that they mightand be the best possible
managers that they can be.
Tim (54:39):
Well, again, I think the book is a tremendous tool and
I'm sure that you know thosethat buy it and go through it
will get a ton out of it and getbetter from that perspective.
But I really enjoyed theconversation.
Joanne (54:54):
Me too.
Tim (54:56):
I can't wait till we can connect again and again.
Thanks so much for your time.
Joanne (55:00):
My pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Tim (55:04):
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom
to get your free e-book Top 21Challenges for Public Speakers
and how to Overcome them.
You can also register for theFormula for Public Speaking
course.
Always remember your voice hasa power to change the world.
We'll talk to you next time,take care.
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