January 19, 2023 • 47 mins
At 16, in 1990, Elizabeth Coleman learned the sect she was born into didn’t date back to Jesus as claimed. The discovery shook her, and she struggled with doubt and shame until—and even after—leaving in 1993.
This is a story about Coleman's experience within the nameless sect and a deep dive into the sect's origins.
Buy Elizabeth Coleman and Cherie Kropp-Ehrig's books:
Preserving the Truth: The Church without a Name and it's Founder, William Irvine.
Cult to Christ The Church with No Name and the Legacy of the Living Witness Doctrine.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to seven New Spectrum by Me Marlin
Heglund and this is Lie's Manipulation and Blind Faith My
life inside Australia's Nameless Sect. This episode contains conversations about
experiences that may be distressing or triggering for some listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Evening and Welcome to Samadari.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Just Who's to blame for the suicide of a teenage
brother and sister in Victoria. Some reports have linked the
tragedy to the suicide of rockstar Kirk Cobaine, but our
investigation has found the children lived in fear of the religious.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Group to which their family belonged.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Sect with No Name, described as the most secretive in
the world.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
The nineteen ninety four deaths of two Australian siblings near
King Lake, Victoria, sparked a media frenzy. A coronial inquest
revealed that they took their lives due to deep hatred
of church meetings and fear of leaving. The case shook
a global sect and exposed a hidden system of abuse.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
You guys are just lions. I'm going to tell the truth.
I'm here and I'm going to tell the truth.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
They hadn't even thought about some of these key issues
responses to them and their views were not even aligned.
I found that perplexing written that.
Speaker 6 (01:18):
It was an experiment and Christianity.
Speaker 7 (01:21):
Is not a people you have to convince that God
is real and therefore move on from that. This is
the people who know that God is real.
Speaker 8 (01:27):
Leaving a group like this, you're going to experience all
of that that comes with a grieving process.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
The Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse has been formally established.
Speaker 9 (01:37):
He will talk to us, whereas they might not be
so interested in talking to X members.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I desperately, as a young girl, wanted to be a ballerina.
I was obsessed with ballet. I don't know why, but
it was certainly seen as too wilde and my mother
did try very hard to convince my father to let
me have lessons as a young girl, but no, it
just was not seen as appropriate or something that was approved.
Speaker 10 (02:10):
So my mother bought me a little too too that
I could dress sucking.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Elizabeth was born in nineteen seventy four in Canberra, went
to public school and grew up in a conservative household.
As a kid, she mostly played piano. It was the
only hobby her fellowship didn't see as a worldly threat.
Her family was part of a nameless sect that claimed
(02:35):
a direct line to Jesus with a strict to tears system,
workers at the top and friends like her family below.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
So people would say to me, you know, what is
your church? And I would say, well, it doesn't have
a name. And they would say, well, of course it
has a name. All churches have a name, and I'd say, no,
we really don't have a name. So they had this
philosophy because you know, they're each and they don't do
anything the same as other churches. They're not just a church,
they're the only church, so they don't need a name,
(03:08):
and Jesus didn't take a name.
Speaker 10 (03:11):
Within the group themselves.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
They often refer to themselves as the Way, or as
the Truth, or as the Fellowship interchangeably, but there is
no specific name by which they're known. These days, we
ex members.
Speaker 10 (03:26):
Call them the two by Twos because they go in pairs.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Elizabeth was taught to tell outsiders her church was non
denominational and the one true Way. She learned that other
churches were wrong and only two by Twos had a
direct line back to Jesus' first disciples. That meant only
the workers had the authority to interpret the Bible and
(03:54):
pass on the true spirits.
Speaker 10 (03:56):
So Orthodox Christians would understand that the spirit is.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
The whole spirit, which is one of the persons of
the Trinity, you know, Father's son.
Speaker 10 (04:04):
Holy Spirit.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Whereas the two y two's always spoke about different types
of spirit, a difficult spirit or a troubled spirit, or
a good spirit.
Speaker 10 (04:15):
It was like a vibe, a little bit more like
Star Wars. You know the force, the force is with
you or the force is not with you.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Growing up in the two x two she wasn't allowed
to watch television or listen to music, so instead she
became an avid reader. By the time she began school,
she was already at the pace of reading one book
a day.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Obviously, the librarian liked me a lot because I loved
books and I learned to read at a very young age.
I could actually read before I went to school. My
mother taught me to read, and I got to school
and couldn't understand why everybody else couldn't read.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Throughout school in the early eighties, Babeth was exposed to
many worldly influences that clashed with the most of the Workers' rules.
As a two by two female, it was considered evil
to use makeup, cut your hair, or wear jewelry or pants.
To participate in physical education was a nursing and she
(05:20):
was the only one in a skirt.
Speaker 10 (05:23):
It was also difficult.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
To keep up with her classmates conversations, as they often
involved in the pop culture she lacked.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Look, I do remember making a very big fuss in
my middle primary years about the fact that we didn't
have a television, and I probably didn't comprehend at that
time how closely tied it was to the church. However,
we watched an inordinate amount of television at friends' houses,
and when we went on holidays and rented a holiday home,
we were glued to it, you know, we couldn't get
(05:52):
away from it because it was such a novelty.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Elizabeth felt the most normal at the four day conventions
on private farms, where families camped in white tents and
listened to sermons three times a day. The worker said
attending every meeting was the only way to receive the
spirits and warned her to never record them in case
(06:17):
they fell into the wrong hands. Twice a week, she
also went to Fellowship meetings in elders' homes. It was
all part of the two x two system, summed up
in the phrase she grew up hearing ministers without a
home and meetings in the home. In high school, her
(06:37):
dad became an elder.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
About fifteen people come to her house on a Sunday morning.
They all sit on chairs around the room. When everybody
arrives for a meeting, they're almost completely quiet, So there
might be a nod of acknowledgment. But you open the door,
you come in, you sit. Everybody is completely silent. Nobody
(07:01):
greets each other. It's all extremely formal. Then when the
older opens the meeting, he'll generally ask if somebody has
a hymn to select, and there is a standard hymnal,
I've got a copy.
Speaker 11 (07:16):
Here.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
She holds up a dark brown book titled Hymns Old
and New in gold lettering, a songbook filled with hints,
many written by the workers themselves. At Sunday Fellowship meetings,
those approved by the workers can choose to profess a
(07:37):
lifelong commitment to the two by two faith. This step,
which leads to baptism, is believed to be the only
path to heaven. Elizabeth won't make this commitment until nineteen ninety,
when she turns sixteen.
Speaker 12 (08:04):
I left the group because I became suspicious that this
group was not really what it was presenting itself to be.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Fourteen years ago, Doug and his wife Helen published a
book on the group, calling it The Secret Sect.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
In nineteen ninety four, Doug gave an interview for seven
Summer Diary. The interview was part of the coverage of
two siblings suicide linked to a secret Sect in Victoria, Australia,
and Doug, who had written a book called The Secret
Sect in nineteen eighty two, shared his knowledge on the
(08:42):
linked sect he had almost entered.
Speaker 12 (08:46):
I believe, festival that the danger in this sect is
that you become so deluded with everything else apart from
this sect.
Speaker 13 (08:57):
For a child not.
Speaker 12 (08:58):
To go to the convention would cause quite a division
in I'd have to find some way out. I'd have
to get sick something.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Elizabeth, who was twenty at a time, later wrote how
the nineteen ninety four case shook the two by two
s worldwide. She remembered being told the creepy stories of
X members dying soon after leaving. Doug's book, The Secret
Sect was the first full history of the group, challenging
(09:34):
their claims of tracing back to Jesus. He estimated thirty
to fifty thousand members in Australia and hundreds of thousands globally.
The book he hit hard. Records show it rattled many
American ex member and author of Preserving the Truth, The
Church without the Name and its founder, William Irvine Cherie
(09:57):
crop Eric said it was tough to get a copy
when it first came out.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
We didn't know the name of it. And you can't
just go looking for a church without a name, a
book about a church without a name. And I looked
for it from the time I first heard of it,
I mean at least five to six years. Finally someone
did a mailing in to all the members in Oklahoma
(10:23):
and I received this mailing and it told where you
could get it. They were advertising it, so I didn't
get it until nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 10 (10:32):
And then never ever, ever.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
In a million years, would I have guessed information in it,
because I had never ever doubted that the way started
with Jesus and had come down from Preacher the Preacher
to our current workers. It just never entered my mind
that that might not be true.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
The Secret Sect featured interviews, photos and documents from early
workers and those who knew founder William Irvine, clearly showing
the group was less than one hundred years old. But
by the time she reread it, she'd already spotted gaps
between the workers teachings and the Bible. A logic claus
(11:14):
she took confirmed it. Most of their answers didn't hold up.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
Or you ought to be ashamed for even asking that,
after all Jesus has done for you, or your questions
show you are unwilling black faith, or rebellious or vain,
or have a deeper problem, any of those kind of
things that.
Speaker 10 (11:36):
Are thought stoppers.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
You really don't want to keep asking questions after those
that kind of thing. But once I understood fallacies and
could recognize them and name them, the words didn't have
any power over them anymore. But I couldn't figure out
why the workers did this. Why did they answer with fallacies?
Why don't just give me a Bible verse? That's all
I wanted was the reason you do this or believe this?
(12:01):
And then I found out finally the dawned on me
that that was because they didn't have an answer.
Speaker 10 (12:08):
It was a man's reason.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
And I actually confirmed this recently with two ex creatures,
and I said, yes, that's what we did exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
But it wasn't until she read the Secret Sect that
things finally pleased. She attended her last meeting in nineteen
ninety and went on to embark on a thirty year
long investigation to verify the claims of the Secret Sect.
She would travel to Scotland and learn about a man
(12:43):
named William Irvine and his revival mission that started the
two by two at the end of the nineteenth century.
Australian academic and professor of church history Rowan Strong explains.
Speaker 7 (12:58):
You have to understand, I think that Scotland up until
even the twentieth century is a society permeated by Christianity.
So people have a sense that God is real. God
is alive and active and working in not just their
lives but in the developments of society.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The nineteenth century in Scotland was a time of revivals
and religiosity. By the time William Irvine was born in
eighteen sixty three, the country had gone through the Great Disruption.
A third of the country's national church splits and forms
an evangelical church free from state control.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
So this is not a people you have to convince
that God is real and therefore move on from that.
This is the people who know that God is real,
and therefore it's about awakening them to a more experiential.
Speaker 6 (13:56):
Sense of that.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Would later join an evangelical movement called Faith Mission as
a traveling preacher, and according to Schrei's findings, the founder
of Faith Mission would later declare that William was indeed
the man who started the two by two. According to
(14:19):
the Secret Sect, William's revival mission would come to Fruition
during a Bible study alongside his fellow helper John Long.
The book claims William wanted to go out and preach
like Jesus had commanded his disciples to preach in the
Gospel of Matthew, and so that meant in pairs homeless
(14:43):
and without food or money, solely relying on God to
provide for their natural needs. My colleague reads the verses
from chapter ten in the Book of Matthew that is
believed to have inspired William's mission.
Speaker 13 (15:00):
To freely give provide neither gold nor silver, nor brass
in your purses, nor script for your journey, neither two coats,
neither shoes, nor yet staves for the workman is worthy
of his meats.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
Irvine says, when did this stop? And John Long says, well,
I don't suppose it ever has, And that started them
thinking that maybe it still works.
Speaker 10 (15:25):
John Long was the very first.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
One who went out to really try it and did it.
And Irvine was already sort of doing that, but he
with faith mission, he still got a little allowance and
so forth, and so he wasn't totally on faith lines.
But then it did work, and all these other guys
wanted to become missionaries also or workers, and they made
(15:51):
it work, and it grew to what it was when
in nineteen fourteen when he left and so forth, looking back,
it wasn't experiment and Christianity.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Alongside his followers, Williams set out to preach the same
way the Disciples did in Matthew ten. Their first mission
was considered a success, and not long after official Faith
missions records show William's resignation.
Speaker 14 (16:22):
Professor rowan, if we start to say that God is
real in the way that Christians understand that, then I
guess in sense anything's.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
Possible talking about a divine being. But this is quite
common in a number of churches, not just evangelical ones
to feel that its founding was to do either with
Jesus directly, as you will see, for example, the Roman
(16:55):
Catholic Church would claim through the apostles or by the
direct work of God's Holy Spirit. This is therefore, particularly
for a number of revivalist sex throughout Christian history, this
is a very common claim that this movement begins by
(17:18):
the direct action of God's Holy Spirit. So it's founded
by God directly.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
But in Cheri's quest for truth, she found what William
never thought stopped actually did in the Gospel of Luke.
There she learned about the return of the disciples and
how they stopped living like they had been sent out
in Matthew ten.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
But yeah, it was a doctrine of this church, absolute doctrine,
and if that was the only way a true creature
live was to be itinerant, and there her trust that
God would provide for their natural needs. And here it was.
They came back. They were only out about six weeks.
It's not like they went out and stayed out. So
(18:07):
what else did they misinterpret? I began to wonder.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
The two X twos spread globally and by nineteen o
four to workers, one of whom would later become Elizabeth's
father's fellowship. Worker arrived in Victoria. Some became state or
country over seers, while others stayed as traveling workers or friends,
(18:36):
but not everyone stuck with the mission. In nineteen o seven,
John Long was kicked out by the founder, William Irvine,
after rejecting a new idea, the Living Witness doctrine, which
claimed spiritual life could only be passed on by someone
already spiritual. According to Shari, this marked the start of
(18:57):
seeing other Christians as falls. The doctrine elevated William as
a prophet and the workers as spiritual gatekeepers. But his
reign it didn't last. Just seven years later, he was
pushed out by other workers who saw him as a
threat to their growing power.
Speaker 10 (19:18):
Sharen.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
So they mutiny and refused to submit and told him
he could step down and be worker room among him,
but they would no longer recognize him as a poor leader.
Well that made suit him. He was furious. He started
this thing, and he used to father at all, and
now they're telling him he can be a brother. No
way was he going to go for that, So he left.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Ultimately phased out, He was soon either forgotten or completely
erased by the workers, but living with this doctrine remained,
and he still reflected in how the two x two
system works today. When Elizabeth was growing up, she didn't
(20:09):
know that she was in a sect. She shares a
memory of a book sad as a young girl called
People My tim It's a book written by Robin Klein,
and it's about a young girl who finds herself a
polk of a fanatical sect.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
She becomes completely separated from the outside world and is
constantly being told that she.
Speaker 10 (20:31):
Can't make any noise, that people can't know that she's there.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
They thought that they were the only ones who understood
what was going to happen and were preparing for this,
and were obviously part of a very.
Speaker 10 (20:43):
Closed religious group. And that was.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Interesting and revealing to me that there were other people
like my family out there, in different kinds of groups,
who also thought they were the only right special ones.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
At the time. When she read the book, she identified
with the mental hurdles the girl experienced, but never drew
the parallels between their realities. The girl in the book
was in a cult and Elizabeth was in the One
True Way licensed marriage and couple counselor and x two
by two member Lisa Gray explains typical cult signs.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
The first thing that I would say is if if
there's a cost to you financially, personally, relationally, if you leave,
I would be very cautious about being in a group
like that. And then the second question I would ask
is what happens if you disagree particularly openly? You know,
(21:47):
so if you were to say I just don't agree,
I don't agree that this belief is true, or that
this is necessary or whatever, are you still like accepted,
fully accepted in that group or are you not.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Lisa has practiced since two thousand and seven. She left
the two by two two years after she received her license,
and like Elizabeth, she also considers the two by two
a cult, but prefers to call it high controlled group instead.
As for her counseling, she never intended for cults to
(22:23):
become her niche, but as ex members of high controlled
groups sought her out, she found a growing demand that
only people like herself could truly meet.
Speaker 8 (22:35):
I myself stay away from the word cult because I
feel like, first of all, it's distracting, so people can
become obsessed about the word and then they miss the
point of the rest of the conversation. But my own
personal definition of a cult is a group that believes
that the way that they do things is the only
(22:57):
acceptable way to do something. When you've been in a
group that tells you how to think, what to where,
where to go, where not to go, basically, particularly if
you're born and raised in it, you are not ever
taught discernment. I mean, you're literally not allowed to decide
things for yourself.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
We talk about the power of language, and Lisa says
a common cult characteristic is to redefine the meaning of words.
I ask her if the two by two not having
an official name can have an impact on ext members.
Speaker 8 (23:36):
So yes, I mean I think that it can be
very destructive both the names that people have given to it,
because it's like, if you're not in the Fellowship, then
you're by definition isolated, right, or if you're not in
the Truth, you're by definition in some false you know, dynamic.
(23:58):
So I think I'm not sure that it's destructive not
having a name. It's just more that like it's hard
to explain your experience, you know, to people because it
is such a small group that like, like I remember
early on my husband made a comment like, well, I
love the Catholic Church, you know, isn't it kind of
the same. And it's like, no, I don't think it's
(24:22):
really the same. But it's hard to explain because it
is a church. It's a religion, right. It seems like
it would be the same as leaving any other church
that you would go to. But it is hard to
explain to people because there's no they can't go read
like the you know, tracts or the belief system or whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
In nineteen ninety, during school holidays at our grandparents farm,
Elizabeth had just professed to follow the two by two.
Forever pressured by those around her, she enjoyed the farm
more than home, with its many activities. One day, while
browsing the library, she came across a book called The
(25:08):
Secret Sake.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I don't really know why I was sitting on their
public bookshelf, but it was that I found it and
I started reading it, and I was horrified, and I
said to my grandmother, who I called Nana, I said,
this guy reckons that the group was started by this
man called William Irvine, and he's telling all this lies
(25:33):
about us.
Speaker 10 (25:34):
And my Nana was always.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
A very well, both my grandparents were always very honest people.
And she said to me, well, sometimes God has to
use a.
Speaker 10 (25:46):
Man to raise up his true way again.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
And that shocked me even more that she wasn't denying it,
but was telling me that this was probably true.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Sixteen on the Path to Baptism, Elizabeth described reading the
Secret Sect as a mental earthquake in her autobiography, but
she suppressed the information for the next three years. Lisa,
who has counseled many ex members, says leaving a destructive
sect is harder for someone who's born into it, as
(26:23):
they can't recall a time on the outside when they
were truly happy.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
Leaving a group like this, you're going to experience all
of that that comes with a grieving process, and if
you've ever grieved, you know that grieving is a very
physical experience.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
In nineteen ninety one, as Elizabeth returned to school, the
secret about the two x two s origins became harder
to hide. Soon she'd faced another challenge that would lead
her to live a double life and question her fee
as well as the workers.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
So I walked into my first English class in that
new school and saw him across the room and this
thing went through.
Speaker 10 (27:11):
My mind like writing on a wall. What would you
say if someone told.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
You that was the man you were going to marry
one day?
Speaker 5 (27:19):
The only thing, the only thing I specifically recall is
because I remember where we shared our English class together.
I did notice Elizabeth, but she was always surrounded by
other guys, and I'd come from a different high school,
so you know, I didn't have friendship groups in this
in this new high school that I was attending, so
(27:41):
but you know she was. She was, I guess, dressed
in a more ladylike fashion than some of the others. Yeah,
quite conservatively dressed, which is fairly typical for the two
x two's.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
David Coleman, new to school, came from a Protestant family.
Elizabeth was taught to avoid At first, she feared her
feelings for him, but after months of trying to stay away,
they became friends, sharing lunch and walked to school.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I guess you'd say we developed a close friendship for
probably at least twelve months before we became.
Speaker 10 (28:21):
More romantically involved. And obviously that was a huge burden
for me because we.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Weren't supposed to be involved with anybody outside of the group,
so I was doing all of the wrong things in
that regard.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
David's household became like a second home to Elizabeth, and
they never hid their relationship from their parents.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
It certainly progressed very slowly towards towards a more I guess,
romantic relationship. So my parents watched cautiously from the sidelines,
which might be misrepresenting them a little bit, because they
were genuinely interest And I think perhaps the difference in
(29:04):
approach from my parents to Elizabeth's parents was that my
parents were willing to open the discussion. They wanted to
hear about you know, what had I learned, what had
I you know, what did Liz's church do? Why that
was different, how it aligned with what we believed.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
For the next two years, Elizabeth describes having lived a
double life. While she was still attending her Fellowship meetings,
she also attended David's church, and more importantly, sometimes he
attended hers.
Speaker 5 (29:43):
I do remember the questions I asked. There were questions
really relating to fairly key elements of Christian doctrine, and
actually fairly fairly mainstream and simple, simple ones. So that's
what perplexed me about the separate of the different understanding
(30:04):
or answers I got from two men who were allegedly
preaching together from this group that was sort of unified
by allegedly by some supernatural force. It seems strange to
me that they they hadn't even apparently hadn't even thought
about some of these key issues responses to them, and
(30:28):
their views were not even aligned. I found that perplexing.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
David raised in a Protestant church, since something was off
with Elizabeth's fellowship, especially about their view of Jesus. After
asking the workers about God and getting different answers, it
became clear he wouldn't convert, so they told Elizabeth to
(30:55):
find someone else.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Went on for well two to three years and became
exceptionally difficult with me leading a double life, not knowing
what I believed anymore. Sitting on the fence took a
great mental strain on me and got to the point
where I knew I had to make a decision to
(31:22):
get rid of David and stay in the group, or
I had to leave.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
At this time, Elizabeth describes her conversations with the workers
as unreceptive and cold. In one incident at her home,
when she told the two workers that she needed to
find the truth for herself. One of them couldn't understand
was she needed to search for truth in the moldy
(31:51):
pages of a book. For a while, leaving the two
x two was a terrifying prospect, but eventually, nineteen ninety three,
one Sunday morning, she told her parents that she was leaving.
She was nineteen years old.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse has been formally established.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Today as the endpoint of what so many people have
fought for, argued for.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
In twenty twelve, Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced a Royal
Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. The following year, the Age
exposed how the two x two s had recruited a
worker with multiple abuse charges from nineteen seventy. Elizabeth, who
was never assaulted, spoke to the Age about rumors of
(32:46):
the male workers abusing girls, calling it a culture of
secrecy and cover ups. At the time, the sect was
estimated to have up to two hundred thousand members world
wid wide.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Given that they don't have an official name, the damage
is limited because it's not like you can point the
finger and say it's such and such a group. Because
every time a story comes out, the group's not clearly identified,
so few members of the public can join all the
dots to say, oh, this is the same group, or
this is this particular group. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
In the past, Elizabeth means the nameless sect has been
able to escape laws because they're not considered an organization
or institution. Not only was the sect able to distance
itself from the issue of institutional abuse, but also teach
its members that going to the police could result in excommunication.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
It's very hard to pin things down administeredly and say
this person is a minister or a board member in
this particular group and should be abiding by these rules
for organizations.
Speaker 10 (33:57):
Because they just say.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
We're not an organization, you can't prove that we are,
so they fly under the radar in so many ways.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
The inquiry will look at how institutions dealt with sexual abuse,
while victims will get the chance to tell their story
to a special unit that will work with police to
investigate the abuse and prosecute the offenders.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
A few months before the Royal Commission, the Parliament of
Victoria ordered an inquiry into child sexual abuse by religious
and other non government organizations. The inquiry received four hundred
and fifty written submissions. One of whom it was from
Wings for Truth, an online organization started by ex members
(34:45):
and survivors of child sexual abuse within the Two by two.
Speaker 9 (34:53):
The way we've based this is it's a secular thing
that we're doing here. This is isn't really for or
against the church. Our whole focus is on protection of
children from child sexual abuse and also to assist survivors
who have.
Speaker 11 (35:11):
Experienced sexual abuse within the church.
Speaker 9 (35:15):
So that's really the baseline.
Speaker 11 (35:17):
Of what we are.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Bruce Murdock lives in Canada and is a current member
of the Two by two and a core member of
Wings for Truth. In this submission, the organization points out
problematic factors within the two by two that contribute to
child sexual abuse becoming risk. He shares how Wings for
(35:40):
Truth keeps a database of reports.
Speaker 9 (35:45):
It sort of split between convicted and accused. So the
convicted is pretty straightforward, it's public knowledge. The accused of
person we can't make public. But what we do is we.
Speaker 11 (35:56):
Encourage people to even report to us suspicion.
Speaker 9 (36:00):
Not that we would act on suspicions, but if we
had two or three people say, oh, I don't know,
I really suspect Joe Blow is not up to something
very good. We'll record that and then we might get
an email or recall saying that this person violated me. Well,
(36:21):
suddenly we've got other people who have suspected that, so
we know this is a very very credible accusation because
we can put those pieces together. So yeah, that's how
the database kind of works.
Speaker 10 (36:36):
Today.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Wings for Truth is run by fifteen two by two
members counting Bruce, which wasn't always the case. When asked
how Wings for Truth ensure survivors are not silenced by
this administrative shift, Bruce can't say. But when asked how
having current members running the organization, he says, direct connections
(37:00):
within the church is beneficial.
Speaker 9 (37:04):
The benefit is that we would have more direct connections
within the church. So you know, we do have our
local workers and overseers and so on, and we all
know them and they will talk to us, whereas they
might not be so interested.
Speaker 11 (37:22):
In talking to X members.
Speaker 9 (37:23):
It's not ideal, but I would prefer Wings to be
integrated with the church as and welcomed as helpers to
reduce this problem.
Speaker 11 (37:36):
But we're largely on the periphery.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
The final report of the Royal Commission in twenty seventeen
tabled recommendations on how to make institutions safer for children only.
In recent years have mandatory reporting requirement laws changed across
Australian states, making it a criminal effect for clergy to
(38:02):
not report suspected child sexual abuse. But is it enough.
Speaker 9 (38:09):
It should I'm not so sure if it does. I
do think it's a good law. I think we need
to have it for sure, but I do think more
people need to know about it, that this is what
you have to do. This is your requirement of a
citizen to report child abuse of any sort, not just
child sexual abuse, but any abuse. It really needs to
be reported, and so people need to know that, hey, you're.
Speaker 11 (38:31):
Required by law or you could end up with a
mine or jail.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Over the years, Bruce says fewer child sexual abuse reports
have been submitted to Wings for Truth and no new
survivor stores have been shared since twenty thirteen. He believes
this could signal better awareness in the two by two
about recognizing and addressing abuse. Wings for Truth has recorded
(39:00):
twenty four convicted offenders across six countries from nineteen ninety
six to twenty eighteen. Both Elizabeth and Bruce acknowledge that
wild abuse can happen anywhere. The two by twos set
up increases the risk as workers live with the friends.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
So if somebody was to accuse of a worker of
an abuse, that is terrible for the group for its reputation.
Speaker 10 (39:31):
So that was always covered up.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
And in my experience with people that I knew that
were abused, if they tried to make a fuss about
it or report it, they were told to keep quiet,
that they would be excommunicated if they went to the police,
so they weren't even allowed to report it.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
From the moment Elizabeth chose to leave the two by two,
the sect she had been born into was gone. The
workers told her that she had a difficult spirit, something
that happens when you don't speak at meetings or conform
to their rules.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
You're taught that you have to keep up the right
appearance no matter what's going on underneath, pretending everything's okay
on the outside, and pretending you have this your leading,
this very holy righteous life, when things can be really
falling apart on the insider in the background.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
At the time, I was actually completely ignorant as to
the emotional baggage that that sort of departure would leave
to in hindsight, I believe had I understood that I
could have supported her much better in terms of more
openly discussing the concerns, but also understanding the inner struggle
(40:44):
that she was having, having put this part of her
life effectively behind her, and just those doubts that crop
up every now and then, have I actually done the
right thing?
Speaker 4 (40:55):
So I think they saw me as a problem, as
revealing the truth to more people.
Speaker 10 (41:00):
They didn't want that. So I had nothing problem, absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Elizabeth and David married in the nineteen ninety five and
stayed in Canberra. She was the first in her family
to leave the two by two, but not the last.
Her mother was rejected from the sect after being accused
of the handing out anti two by two pamphlets based
on rumors that new converts had been influenced by them.
(41:29):
Over the years. The rest of her immediate family also left.
Even after leaving, Elizabeth still felt fear and guilt. She
needed answers and someone to take accountability.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
But then after a year or so after I'd left,
I thought, I thought, blow it.
Speaker 10 (41:49):
I'm going to.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Be really honest with them, because by that time I
had the Internet was in its sort of early inception,
and a friend of David said to me, have you
ever found any information about them on the internet.
Speaker 10 (42:02):
Well, I'd never even thought about it.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
So I got on the internet and found other members
who had left and who had even written books about
the group. So I got some of these books and
these pamphlets together, and I ran the workers and said, look,
I want to want to talk.
Speaker 10 (42:17):
About this, and they were very unreceptive.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
There are a few phone calls backwards and forwards, and
eventually one of the older workers told me they would
only come and see me with a great list of conditions.
I was never to reveal their names. I was not
to admit to anybody they had come to see me.
I was not to reveal any of the contents of
the conversations that they had with me. And if I
did tell anybody they had been to see me, that
(42:43):
they would deny it and call me a liar.
Speaker 11 (42:46):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
After having confronted the workers about the information she had
found online, she received the hate mail and strange phone
calls from members she had never met. Some phone calls
were from curious members, and some male was what she
describes as empty threats.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
I'm not sure how widely but I certainly started to
understand that they were smearing my name all over the place,
and I hadn't done anything except told the truth. So
they was saying to.
Speaker 10 (43:18):
Everybody, don't talk to Elizabeth.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
She, you know, is an evil and bitter person, and
not to have anything to do with her or listen
to anything she has to say.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Today, Elizabeth calls the two by two a cult. She
even wrote an autobiography called Called to Christ, the Church
with No Name and the Legacy of the Living Witness doctrine.
As for Elizabeth's new life without two by two rules,
she became a fan of tennis and champagne, a luxury
(43:54):
she had only been allowed to experience as a professing
member during the meetings. Three years after having left, she
changed her physical appearance. At first, she pierced her ears
and started to wear pants. Then seven years later she
went to the hair salon for the first time, and
(44:15):
only five years ago she started to foil, but only
because she's turning gray, she.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
Says, and I were, oh, virgin hair.
Speaker 10 (44:24):
You know, it's never been colored ever.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
So having foils put in my hair and going to
a hairdresser is just pretty mind blowing.
Speaker 10 (44:33):
Really, every time I did that my hair dress is
going to laugh when she.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
When we meet Elizabeth today, she can draw the parallels
between the fanatical sect in the book she read as
a young girl and the two by two. Since becoming
an outsider, she has also found news stories and characters
to relate to.
Speaker 7 (44:56):
I Mean to you Now from the largest studio ever constructed.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
It's Got All unsul the nineteen and ninety eight film
starring Jim Carey as Truman and Natasha Macalone as Sylvia,
presents a world of make believe in which Truman is
born into. The plot is uncovered when Truman meets Sylvia,
an outsider, and finds out that nothing in his world
(45:23):
was real. Elizabeth watched it recently, so.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
As Truman, he lives in this carefully constructed world where
you know, he's got some questions, but he's generally accepts
things the way that they are until he becomes aware
that he's being manipulated and deceived.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
Listen to me, Trim, There's no more truth out there
than there is in a world I created for you.
Speaker 4 (45:51):
Then, on the outsiders, as Sylvia, we do desperately want
to let all the others who are still trapped on
the inside. No, Hey, this is not real. This was
a great experiment set up by William Irvine in the
late eighteen hundreds. And you're still believing what they're saying
because they tell their members to actually burn books that
(46:13):
they're sent, not to believe anything that's written on the internet.
Speaker 10 (46:17):
People write lies on the internet. Ex members are just
bitter and want you to get caught up in their bitterness.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
So that's sort of the things that they say about
us to stop people on the inside. And it's very
similar to the whole Truman set up with Sylvia trying
to explained Truman, what's going what's going on with him?
Speaker 6 (46:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Absolutely, you have listened to Savenu Spectrum, Lies, Manipulation and
Blind Faith My Life inside Australia's Nameless Sect. This episode
was produced by me Arlin Haglund. If you or someone
(46:59):
you know is impacted by sexual assault or domestic or
family violence, call one eight hundred Respect on one eight
hundred seven three seven seven three two, or visit one
eight hundred respect dot org dot au in an emergency
call Triple zero
You are listening to seven New Spectrum by Me Marlin
Heglund and this is Lie's Manipulation and Blind Faith My
life inside Australia's Nameless Sect. This episode contains conversations about
experiences that may be distressing or triggering for some listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Evening and Welcome to Samadari.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Just Who's to blame for the suicide of a teenage
brother and sister in Victoria. Some reports have linked the
tragedy to the suicide of rockstar Kirk Cobaine, but our
investigation has found the children lived in fear of the religious.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Group to which their family belonged.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Sect with No Name, described as the most secretive in
the world.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
The nineteen ninety four deaths of two Australian siblings near
King Lake, Victoria, sparked a media frenzy. A coronial inquest
revealed that they took their lives due to deep hatred
of church meetings and fear of leaving. The case shook
a global sect and exposed a hidden system of abuse.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
You guys are just lions. I'm going to tell the truth.
I'm here and I'm going to tell the truth.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
They hadn't even thought about some of these key issues
responses to them and their views were not even aligned.
I found that perplexing written that.
Speaker 6 (01:18):
It was an experiment and Christianity.
Speaker 7 (01:21):
Is not a people you have to convince that God
is real and therefore move on from that. This is
the people who know that God is real.
Speaker 8 (01:27):
Leaving a group like this, you're going to experience all
of that that comes with a grieving process.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
The Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse has been formally established.
Speaker 9 (01:37):
He will talk to us, whereas they might not be
so interested in talking to X members.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I desperately, as a young girl, wanted to be a ballerina.
I was obsessed with ballet. I don't know why, but
it was certainly seen as too wilde and my mother
did try very hard to convince my father to let
me have lessons as a young girl, but no, it
just was not seen as appropriate or something that was approved.
Speaker 10 (02:10):
So my mother bought me a little too too that
I could dress sucking.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Elizabeth was born in nineteen seventy four in Canberra, went
to public school and grew up in a conservative household.
As a kid, she mostly played piano. It was the
only hobby her fellowship didn't see as a worldly threat.
Her family was part of a nameless sect that claimed
(02:35):
a direct line to Jesus with a strict to tears system,
workers at the top and friends like her family below.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
So people would say to me, you know, what is
your church? And I would say, well, it doesn't have
a name. And they would say, well, of course it
has a name. All churches have a name, and I'd say, no,
we really don't have a name. So they had this
philosophy because you know, they're each and they don't do
anything the same as other churches. They're not just a church,
they're the only church, so they don't need a name,
(03:08):
and Jesus didn't take a name.
Speaker 10 (03:11):
Within the group themselves.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
They often refer to themselves as the Way, or as
the Truth, or as the Fellowship interchangeably, but there is
no specific name by which they're known. These days, we
ex members.
Speaker 10 (03:26):
Call them the two by Twos because they go in pairs.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Elizabeth was taught to tell outsiders her church was non
denominational and the one true Way. She learned that other
churches were wrong and only two by Twos had a
direct line back to Jesus' first disciples. That meant only
the workers had the authority to interpret the Bible and
(03:54):
pass on the true spirits.
Speaker 10 (03:56):
So Orthodox Christians would understand that the spirit is.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
The whole spirit, which is one of the persons of
the Trinity, you know, Father's son.
Speaker 10 (04:04):
Holy Spirit.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Whereas the two y two's always spoke about different types
of spirit, a difficult spirit or a troubled spirit, or
a good spirit.
Speaker 10 (04:15):
It was like a vibe, a little bit more like
Star Wars. You know the force, the force is with
you or the force is not with you.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Growing up in the two x two she wasn't allowed
to watch television or listen to music, so instead she
became an avid reader. By the time she began school,
she was already at the pace of reading one book
a day.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Obviously, the librarian liked me a lot because I loved
books and I learned to read at a very young age.
I could actually read before I went to school. My
mother taught me to read, and I got to school
and couldn't understand why everybody else couldn't read.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Throughout school in the early eighties, Babeth was exposed to
many worldly influences that clashed with the most of the Workers' rules.
As a two by two female, it was considered evil
to use makeup, cut your hair, or wear jewelry or pants.
To participate in physical education was a nursing and she
(05:20):
was the only one in a skirt.
Speaker 10 (05:23):
It was also difficult.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
To keep up with her classmates conversations, as they often
involved in the pop culture she lacked.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Look, I do remember making a very big fuss in
my middle primary years about the fact that we didn't
have a television, and I probably didn't comprehend at that
time how closely tied it was to the church. However,
we watched an inordinate amount of television at friends' houses,
and when we went on holidays and rented a holiday home,
we were glued to it, you know, we couldn't get
(05:52):
away from it because it was such a novelty.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Elizabeth felt the most normal at the four day conventions
on private farms, where families camped in white tents and
listened to sermons three times a day. The worker said
attending every meeting was the only way to receive the
spirits and warned her to never record them in case
(06:17):
they fell into the wrong hands. Twice a week, she
also went to Fellowship meetings in elders' homes. It was
all part of the two x two system, summed up
in the phrase she grew up hearing ministers without a
home and meetings in the home. In high school, her
(06:37):
dad became an elder.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
About fifteen people come to her house on a Sunday morning.
They all sit on chairs around the room. When everybody
arrives for a meeting, they're almost completely quiet, So there
might be a nod of acknowledgment. But you open the door,
you come in, you sit. Everybody is completely silent. Nobody
(07:01):
greets each other. It's all extremely formal. Then when the
older opens the meeting, he'll generally ask if somebody has
a hymn to select, and there is a standard hymnal,
I've got a copy.
Speaker 11 (07:16):
Here.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
She holds up a dark brown book titled Hymns Old
and New in gold lettering, a songbook filled with hints,
many written by the workers themselves. At Sunday Fellowship meetings,
those approved by the workers can choose to profess a
(07:37):
lifelong commitment to the two by two faith. This step,
which leads to baptism, is believed to be the only
path to heaven. Elizabeth won't make this commitment until nineteen ninety,
when she turns sixteen.
Speaker 12 (08:04):
I left the group because I became suspicious that this
group was not really what it was presenting itself to be.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Fourteen years ago, Doug and his wife Helen published a
book on the group, calling it The Secret Sect.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
In nineteen ninety four, Doug gave an interview for seven
Summer Diary. The interview was part of the coverage of
two siblings suicide linked to a secret Sect in Victoria, Australia,
and Doug, who had written a book called The Secret
Sect in nineteen eighty two, shared his knowledge on the
(08:42):
linked sect he had almost entered.
Speaker 12 (08:46):
I believe, festival that the danger in this sect is
that you become so deluded with everything else apart from
this sect.
Speaker 13 (08:57):
For a child not.
Speaker 12 (08:58):
To go to the convention would cause quite a division
in I'd have to find some way out. I'd have
to get sick something.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Elizabeth, who was twenty at a time, later wrote how
the nineteen ninety four case shook the two by two
s worldwide. She remembered being told the creepy stories of
X members dying soon after leaving. Doug's book, The Secret
Sect was the first full history of the group, challenging
(09:34):
their claims of tracing back to Jesus. He estimated thirty
to fifty thousand members in Australia and hundreds of thousands globally.
The book he hit hard. Records show it rattled many
American ex member and author of Preserving the Truth, The
Church without the Name and its founder, William Irvine Cherie
(09:57):
crop Eric said it was tough to get a copy
when it first came out.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
We didn't know the name of it. And you can't
just go looking for a church without a name, a
book about a church without a name. And I looked
for it from the time I first heard of it,
I mean at least five to six years. Finally someone
did a mailing in to all the members in Oklahoma
(10:23):
and I received this mailing and it told where you
could get it. They were advertising it, so I didn't
get it until nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 10 (10:32):
And then never ever, ever.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
In a million years, would I have guessed information in it,
because I had never ever doubted that the way started
with Jesus and had come down from Preacher the Preacher
to our current workers. It just never entered my mind
that that might not be true.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
The Secret Sect featured interviews, photos and documents from early
workers and those who knew founder William Irvine, clearly showing
the group was less than one hundred years old. But
by the time she reread it, she'd already spotted gaps
between the workers teachings and the Bible. A logic claus
(11:14):
she took confirmed it. Most of their answers didn't hold up.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
Or you ought to be ashamed for even asking that,
after all Jesus has done for you, or your questions
show you are unwilling black faith, or rebellious or vain,
or have a deeper problem, any of those kind of
things that.
Speaker 10 (11:36):
Are thought stoppers.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
You really don't want to keep asking questions after those
that kind of thing. But once I understood fallacies and
could recognize them and name them, the words didn't have
any power over them anymore. But I couldn't figure out
why the workers did this. Why did they answer with fallacies?
Why don't just give me a Bible verse? That's all
I wanted was the reason you do this or believe this?
(12:01):
And then I found out finally the dawned on me
that that was because they didn't have an answer.
Speaker 10 (12:08):
It was a man's reason.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
And I actually confirmed this recently with two ex creatures,
and I said, yes, that's what we did exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
But it wasn't until she read the Secret Sect that
things finally pleased. She attended her last meeting in nineteen
ninety and went on to embark on a thirty year
long investigation to verify the claims of the Secret Sect.
She would travel to Scotland and learn about a man
(12:43):
named William Irvine and his revival mission that started the
two by two at the end of the nineteenth century.
Australian academic and professor of church history Rowan Strong explains.
Speaker 7 (12:58):
You have to understand, I think that Scotland up until
even the twentieth century is a society permeated by Christianity.
So people have a sense that God is real. God
is alive and active and working in not just their
lives but in the developments of society.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The nineteenth century in Scotland was a time of revivals
and religiosity. By the time William Irvine was born in
eighteen sixty three, the country had gone through the Great Disruption.
A third of the country's national church splits and forms
an evangelical church free from state control.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
So this is not a people you have to convince
that God is real and therefore move on from that.
This is the people who know that God is real,
and therefore it's about awakening them to a more experiential.
Speaker 6 (13:56):
Sense of that.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Would later join an evangelical movement called Faith Mission as
a traveling preacher, and according to Schrei's findings, the founder
of Faith Mission would later declare that William was indeed
the man who started the two by two. According to
(14:19):
the Secret Sect, William's revival mission would come to Fruition
during a Bible study alongside his fellow helper John Long.
The book claims William wanted to go out and preach
like Jesus had commanded his disciples to preach in the
Gospel of Matthew, and so that meant in pairs homeless
(14:43):
and without food or money, solely relying on God to
provide for their natural needs. My colleague reads the verses
from chapter ten in the Book of Matthew that is
believed to have inspired William's mission.
Speaker 13 (15:00):
To freely give provide neither gold nor silver, nor brass
in your purses, nor script for your journey, neither two coats,
neither shoes, nor yet staves for the workman is worthy
of his meats.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
Irvine says, when did this stop? And John Long says, well,
I don't suppose it ever has, And that started them
thinking that maybe it still works.
Speaker 10 (15:25):
John Long was the very first.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
One who went out to really try it and did it.
And Irvine was already sort of doing that, but he
with faith mission, he still got a little allowance and
so forth, and so he wasn't totally on faith lines.
But then it did work, and all these other guys
wanted to become missionaries also or workers, and they made
(15:51):
it work, and it grew to what it was when
in nineteen fourteen when he left and so forth, looking back,
it wasn't experiment and Christianity.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Alongside his followers, Williams set out to preach the same
way the Disciples did in Matthew ten. Their first mission
was considered a success, and not long after official Faith
missions records show William's resignation.
Speaker 14 (16:22):
Professor rowan, if we start to say that God is
real in the way that Christians understand that, then I
guess in sense anything's.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
Possible talking about a divine being. But this is quite
common in a number of churches, not just evangelical ones
to feel that its founding was to do either with
Jesus directly, as you will see, for example, the Roman
(16:55):
Catholic Church would claim through the apostles or by the
direct work of God's Holy Spirit. This is therefore, particularly
for a number of revivalist sex throughout Christian history, this
is a very common claim that this movement begins by
(17:18):
the direct action of God's Holy Spirit. So it's founded
by God directly.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
But in Cheri's quest for truth, she found what William
never thought stopped actually did in the Gospel of Luke.
There she learned about the return of the disciples and
how they stopped living like they had been sent out
in Matthew ten.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
But yeah, it was a doctrine of this church, absolute doctrine,
and if that was the only way a true creature
live was to be itinerant, and there her trust that
God would provide for their natural needs. And here it was.
They came back. They were only out about six weeks.
It's not like they went out and stayed out. So
(18:07):
what else did they misinterpret? I began to wonder.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
The two X twos spread globally and by nineteen o
four to workers, one of whom would later become Elizabeth's
father's fellowship. Worker arrived in Victoria. Some became state or
country over seers, while others stayed as traveling workers or friends,
(18:36):
but not everyone stuck with the mission. In nineteen o seven,
John Long was kicked out by the founder, William Irvine,
after rejecting a new idea, the Living Witness doctrine, which
claimed spiritual life could only be passed on by someone
already spiritual. According to Shari, this marked the start of
(18:57):
seeing other Christians as falls. The doctrine elevated William as
a prophet and the workers as spiritual gatekeepers. But his
reign it didn't last. Just seven years later, he was
pushed out by other workers who saw him as a
threat to their growing power.
Speaker 10 (19:18):
Sharen.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
So they mutiny and refused to submit and told him
he could step down and be worker room among him,
but they would no longer recognize him as a poor leader.
Well that made suit him. He was furious. He started
this thing, and he used to father at all, and
now they're telling him he can be a brother. No
way was he going to go for that, So he left.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Ultimately phased out, He was soon either forgotten or completely
erased by the workers, but living with this doctrine remained,
and he still reflected in how the two x two
system works today. When Elizabeth was growing up, she didn't
(20:09):
know that she was in a sect. She shares a
memory of a book sad as a young girl called
People My tim It's a book written by Robin Klein,
and it's about a young girl who finds herself a
polk of a fanatical sect.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
She becomes completely separated from the outside world and is
constantly being told that she.
Speaker 10 (20:31):
Can't make any noise, that people can't know that she's there.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
They thought that they were the only ones who understood
what was going to happen and were preparing for this,
and were obviously part of a very.
Speaker 10 (20:43):
Closed religious group. And that was.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Interesting and revealing to me that there were other people
like my family out there, in different kinds of groups,
who also thought they were the only right special ones.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
At the time. When she read the book, she identified
with the mental hurdles the girl experienced, but never drew
the parallels between their realities. The girl in the book
was in a cult and Elizabeth was in the One
True Way licensed marriage and couple counselor and x two
by two member Lisa Gray explains typical cult signs.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
The first thing that I would say is if if
there's a cost to you financially, personally, relationally, if you leave,
I would be very cautious about being in a group
like that. And then the second question I would ask
is what happens if you disagree particularly openly? You know,
(21:47):
so if you were to say I just don't agree,
I don't agree that this belief is true, or that
this is necessary or whatever, are you still like accepted,
fully accepted in that group or are you not.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Lisa has practiced since two thousand and seven. She left
the two by two two years after she received her license,
and like Elizabeth, she also considers the two by two
a cult, but prefers to call it high controlled group instead.
As for her counseling, she never intended for cults to
(22:23):
become her niche, but as ex members of high controlled
groups sought her out, she found a growing demand that
only people like herself could truly meet.
Speaker 8 (22:35):
I myself stay away from the word cult because I
feel like, first of all, it's distracting, so people can
become obsessed about the word and then they miss the
point of the rest of the conversation. But my own
personal definition of a cult is a group that believes
that the way that they do things is the only
(22:57):
acceptable way to do something. When you've been in a
group that tells you how to think, what to where,
where to go, where not to go, basically, particularly if
you're born and raised in it, you are not ever
taught discernment. I mean, you're literally not allowed to decide
things for yourself.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
We talk about the power of language, and Lisa says
a common cult characteristic is to redefine the meaning of words.
I ask her if the two by two not having
an official name can have an impact on ext members.
Speaker 8 (23:36):
So yes, I mean I think that it can be
very destructive both the names that people have given to it,
because it's like, if you're not in the Fellowship, then
you're by definition isolated, right, or if you're not in
the Truth, you're by definition in some false you know, dynamic.
(23:58):
So I think I'm not sure that it's destructive not
having a name. It's just more that like it's hard
to explain your experience, you know, to people because it
is such a small group that like, like I remember
early on my husband made a comment like, well, I
love the Catholic Church, you know, isn't it kind of
the same. And it's like, no, I don't think it's
(24:22):
really the same. But it's hard to explain because it
is a church. It's a religion, right. It seems like
it would be the same as leaving any other church
that you would go to. But it is hard to
explain to people because there's no they can't go read
like the you know, tracts or the belief system or whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
In nineteen ninety, during school holidays at our grandparents farm,
Elizabeth had just professed to follow the two by two.
Forever pressured by those around her, she enjoyed the farm
more than home, with its many activities. One day, while
browsing the library, she came across a book called The
(25:08):
Secret Sake.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I don't really know why I was sitting on their
public bookshelf, but it was that I found it and
I started reading it, and I was horrified, and I
said to my grandmother, who I called Nana, I said,
this guy reckons that the group was started by this
man called William Irvine, and he's telling all this lies
(25:33):
about us.
Speaker 10 (25:34):
And my Nana was always.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
A very well, both my grandparents were always very honest people.
And she said to me, well, sometimes God has to
use a.
Speaker 10 (25:46):
Man to raise up his true way again.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
And that shocked me even more that she wasn't denying it,
but was telling me that this was probably true.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Sixteen on the Path to Baptism, Elizabeth described reading the
Secret Sect as a mental earthquake in her autobiography, but
she suppressed the information for the next three years. Lisa,
who has counseled many ex members, says leaving a destructive
sect is harder for someone who's born into it, as
(26:23):
they can't recall a time on the outside when they
were truly happy.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
Leaving a group like this, you're going to experience all
of that that comes with a grieving process, and if
you've ever grieved, you know that grieving is a very
physical experience.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
In nineteen ninety one, as Elizabeth returned to school, the
secret about the two x two s origins became harder
to hide. Soon she'd faced another challenge that would lead
her to live a double life and question her fee
as well as the workers.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
So I walked into my first English class in that
new school and saw him across the room and this
thing went through.
Speaker 10 (27:11):
My mind like writing on a wall. What would you
say if someone told.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
You that was the man you were going to marry
one day?
Speaker 5 (27:19):
The only thing, the only thing I specifically recall is
because I remember where we shared our English class together.
I did notice Elizabeth, but she was always surrounded by
other guys, and I'd come from a different high school,
so you know, I didn't have friendship groups in this
in this new high school that I was attending, so
(27:41):
but you know she was. She was, I guess, dressed
in a more ladylike fashion than some of the others. Yeah,
quite conservatively dressed, which is fairly typical for the two
x two's.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
David Coleman, new to school, came from a Protestant family.
Elizabeth was taught to avoid At first, she feared her
feelings for him, but after months of trying to stay away,
they became friends, sharing lunch and walked to school.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I guess you'd say we developed a close friendship for
probably at least twelve months before we became.
Speaker 10 (28:21):
More romantically involved. And obviously that was a huge burden
for me because we.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Weren't supposed to be involved with anybody outside of the group,
so I was doing all of the wrong things in
that regard.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
David's household became like a second home to Elizabeth, and
they never hid their relationship from their parents.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
It certainly progressed very slowly towards towards a more I guess,
romantic relationship. So my parents watched cautiously from the sidelines,
which might be misrepresenting them a little bit, because they
were genuinely interest And I think perhaps the difference in
(29:04):
approach from my parents to Elizabeth's parents was that my
parents were willing to open the discussion. They wanted to
hear about you know, what had I learned, what had
I you know, what did Liz's church do? Why that
was different, how it aligned with what we believed.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
For the next two years, Elizabeth describes having lived a
double life. While she was still attending her Fellowship meetings,
she also attended David's church, and more importantly, sometimes he
attended hers.
Speaker 5 (29:43):
I do remember the questions I asked. There were questions
really relating to fairly key elements of Christian doctrine, and
actually fairly fairly mainstream and simple, simple ones. So that's
what perplexed me about the separate of the different understanding
(30:04):
or answers I got from two men who were allegedly
preaching together from this group that was sort of unified
by allegedly by some supernatural force. It seems strange to
me that they they hadn't even apparently hadn't even thought
about some of these key issues responses to them, and
(30:28):
their views were not even aligned. I found that perplexing.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
David raised in a Protestant church, since something was off
with Elizabeth's fellowship, especially about their view of Jesus. After
asking the workers about God and getting different answers, it
became clear he wouldn't convert, so they told Elizabeth to
(30:55):
find someone else.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Went on for well two to three years and became
exceptionally difficult with me leading a double life, not knowing
what I believed anymore. Sitting on the fence took a
great mental strain on me and got to the point
where I knew I had to make a decision to
(31:22):
get rid of David and stay in the group, or
I had to leave.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
At this time, Elizabeth describes her conversations with the workers
as unreceptive and cold. In one incident at her home,
when she told the two workers that she needed to
find the truth for herself. One of them couldn't understand
was she needed to search for truth in the moldy
(31:51):
pages of a book. For a while, leaving the two
x two was a terrifying prospect, but eventually, nineteen ninety three,
one Sunday morning, she told her parents that she was leaving.
She was nineteen years old.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse has been formally established.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Today as the endpoint of what so many people have
fought for, argued for.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
In twenty twelve, Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced a Royal
Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. The following year, the Age
exposed how the two x two s had recruited a
worker with multiple abuse charges from nineteen seventy. Elizabeth, who
was never assaulted, spoke to the Age about rumors of
(32:46):
the male workers abusing girls, calling it a culture of
secrecy and cover ups. At the time, the sect was
estimated to have up to two hundred thousand members world
wid wide.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Given that they don't have an official name, the damage
is limited because it's not like you can point the
finger and say it's such and such a group. Because
every time a story comes out, the group's not clearly identified,
so few members of the public can join all the
dots to say, oh, this is the same group, or
this is this particular group. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
In the past, Elizabeth means the nameless sect has been
able to escape laws because they're not considered an organization
or institution. Not only was the sect able to distance
itself from the issue of institutional abuse, but also teach
its members that going to the police could result in excommunication.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
It's very hard to pin things down administeredly and say
this person is a minister or a board member in
this particular group and should be abiding by these rules
for organizations.
Speaker 10 (33:57):
Because they just say.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
We're not an organization, you can't prove that we are,
so they fly under the radar in so many ways.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
The inquiry will look at how institutions dealt with sexual abuse,
while victims will get the chance to tell their story
to a special unit that will work with police to
investigate the abuse and prosecute the offenders.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
A few months before the Royal Commission, the Parliament of
Victoria ordered an inquiry into child sexual abuse by religious
and other non government organizations. The inquiry received four hundred
and fifty written submissions. One of whom it was from
Wings for Truth, an online organization started by ex members
(34:45):
and survivors of child sexual abuse within the Two by two.
Speaker 9 (34:53):
The way we've based this is it's a secular thing
that we're doing here. This is isn't really for or
against the church. Our whole focus is on protection of
children from child sexual abuse and also to assist survivors
who have.
Speaker 11 (35:11):
Experienced sexual abuse within the church.
Speaker 9 (35:15):
So that's really the baseline.
Speaker 11 (35:17):
Of what we are.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Bruce Murdock lives in Canada and is a current member
of the Two by two and a core member of
Wings for Truth. In this submission, the organization points out
problematic factors within the two by two that contribute to
child sexual abuse becoming risk. He shares how Wings for
(35:40):
Truth keeps a database of reports.
Speaker 9 (35:45):
It sort of split between convicted and accused. So the
convicted is pretty straightforward, it's public knowledge. The accused of
person we can't make public. But what we do is we.
Speaker 11 (35:56):
Encourage people to even report to us suspicion.
Speaker 9 (36:00):
Not that we would act on suspicions, but if we
had two or three people say, oh, I don't know,
I really suspect Joe Blow is not up to something
very good. We'll record that and then we might get
an email or recall saying that this person violated me. Well,
(36:21):
suddenly we've got other people who have suspected that, so
we know this is a very very credible accusation because
we can put those pieces together. So yeah, that's how
the database kind of works.
Speaker 10 (36:36):
Today.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Wings for Truth is run by fifteen two by two
members counting Bruce, which wasn't always the case. When asked
how Wings for Truth ensure survivors are not silenced by
this administrative shift, Bruce can't say. But when asked how
having current members running the organization, he says, direct connections
(37:00):
within the church is beneficial.
Speaker 9 (37:04):
The benefit is that we would have more direct connections
within the church. So you know, we do have our
local workers and overseers and so on, and we all
know them and they will talk to us, whereas they
might not be so interested.
Speaker 11 (37:22):
In talking to X members.
Speaker 9 (37:23):
It's not ideal, but I would prefer Wings to be
integrated with the church as and welcomed as helpers to
reduce this problem.
Speaker 11 (37:36):
But we're largely on the periphery.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
The final report of the Royal Commission in twenty seventeen
tabled recommendations on how to make institutions safer for children only.
In recent years have mandatory reporting requirement laws changed across
Australian states, making it a criminal effect for clergy to
(38:02):
not report suspected child sexual abuse. But is it enough.
Speaker 9 (38:09):
It should I'm not so sure if it does. I
do think it's a good law. I think we need
to have it for sure, but I do think more
people need to know about it, that this is what
you have to do. This is your requirement of a
citizen to report child abuse of any sort, not just
child sexual abuse, but any abuse. It really needs to
be reported, and so people need to know that, hey, you're.
Speaker 11 (38:31):
Required by law or you could end up with a
mine or jail.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Over the years, Bruce says fewer child sexual abuse reports
have been submitted to Wings for Truth and no new
survivor stores have been shared since twenty thirteen. He believes
this could signal better awareness in the two by two
about recognizing and addressing abuse. Wings for Truth has recorded
(39:00):
twenty four convicted offenders across six countries from nineteen ninety
six to twenty eighteen. Both Elizabeth and Bruce acknowledge that
wild abuse can happen anywhere. The two by twos set
up increases the risk as workers live with the friends.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
So if somebody was to accuse of a worker of
an abuse, that is terrible for the group for its reputation.
Speaker 10 (39:31):
So that was always covered up.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
And in my experience with people that I knew that
were abused, if they tried to make a fuss about
it or report it, they were told to keep quiet,
that they would be excommunicated if they went to the police,
so they weren't even allowed to report it.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
From the moment Elizabeth chose to leave the two by two,
the sect she had been born into was gone. The
workers told her that she had a difficult spirit, something
that happens when you don't speak at meetings or conform
to their rules.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
You're taught that you have to keep up the right
appearance no matter what's going on underneath, pretending everything's okay
on the outside, and pretending you have this your leading,
this very holy righteous life, when things can be really
falling apart on the insider in the background.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
At the time, I was actually completely ignorant as to
the emotional baggage that that sort of departure would leave
to in hindsight, I believe had I understood that I
could have supported her much better in terms of more
openly discussing the concerns, but also understanding the inner struggle
(40:44):
that she was having, having put this part of her
life effectively behind her, and just those doubts that crop
up every now and then, have I actually done the
right thing?
Speaker 4 (40:55):
So I think they saw me as a problem, as
revealing the truth to more people.
Speaker 10 (41:00):
They didn't want that. So I had nothing problem, absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Elizabeth and David married in the nineteen ninety five and
stayed in Canberra. She was the first in her family
to leave the two by two, but not the last.
Her mother was rejected from the sect after being accused
of the handing out anti two by two pamphlets based
on rumors that new converts had been influenced by them.
(41:29):
Over the years. The rest of her immediate family also left.
Even after leaving, Elizabeth still felt fear and guilt. She
needed answers and someone to take accountability.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
But then after a year or so after I'd left,
I thought, I thought, blow it.
Speaker 10 (41:49):
I'm going to.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Be really honest with them, because by that time I
had the Internet was in its sort of early inception,
and a friend of David said to me, have you
ever found any information about them on the internet.
Speaker 10 (42:02):
Well, I'd never even thought about it.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
So I got on the internet and found other members
who had left and who had even written books about
the group. So I got some of these books and
these pamphlets together, and I ran the workers and said, look,
I want to want to talk.
Speaker 10 (42:17):
About this, and they were very unreceptive.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
There are a few phone calls backwards and forwards, and
eventually one of the older workers told me they would
only come and see me with a great list of conditions.
I was never to reveal their names. I was not
to admit to anybody they had come to see me.
I was not to reveal any of the contents of
the conversations that they had with me. And if I
did tell anybody they had been to see me, that
(42:43):
they would deny it and call me a liar.
Speaker 11 (42:46):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
After having confronted the workers about the information she had
found online, she received the hate mail and strange phone
calls from members she had never met. Some phone calls
were from curious members, and some male was what she
describes as empty threats.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
I'm not sure how widely but I certainly started to
understand that they were smearing my name all over the place,
and I hadn't done anything except told the truth. So
they was saying to.
Speaker 10 (43:18):
Everybody, don't talk to Elizabeth.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
She, you know, is an evil and bitter person, and
not to have anything to do with her or listen
to anything she has to say.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Today, Elizabeth calls the two by two a cult. She
even wrote an autobiography called Called to Christ, the Church
with No Name and the Legacy of the Living Witness doctrine.
As for Elizabeth's new life without two by two rules,
she became a fan of tennis and champagne, a luxury
(43:54):
she had only been allowed to experience as a professing
member during the meetings. Three years after having left, she
changed her physical appearance. At first, she pierced her ears
and started to wear pants. Then seven years later she
went to the hair salon for the first time, and
(44:15):
only five years ago she started to foil, but only
because she's turning gray, she.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
Says, and I were, oh, virgin hair.
Speaker 10 (44:24):
You know, it's never been colored ever.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
So having foils put in my hair and going to
a hairdresser is just pretty mind blowing.
Speaker 10 (44:33):
Really, every time I did that my hair dress is
going to laugh when she.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
When we meet Elizabeth today, she can draw the parallels
between the fanatical sect in the book she read as
a young girl and the two by two. Since becoming
an outsider, she has also found news stories and characters
to relate to.
Speaker 7 (44:56):
I Mean to you Now from the largest studio ever constructed.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
It's Got All unsul the nineteen and ninety eight film
starring Jim Carey as Truman and Natasha Macalone as Sylvia,
presents a world of make believe in which Truman is
born into. The plot is uncovered when Truman meets Sylvia,
an outsider, and finds out that nothing in his world
(45:23):
was real. Elizabeth watched it recently, so.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
As Truman, he lives in this carefully constructed world where
you know, he's got some questions, but he's generally accepts
things the way that they are until he becomes aware
that he's being manipulated and deceived.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
Listen to me, Trim, There's no more truth out there
than there is in a world I created for you.
Speaker 4 (45:51):
Then, on the outsiders, as Sylvia, we do desperately want
to let all the others who are still trapped on
the inside. No, Hey, this is not real. This was
a great experiment set up by William Irvine in the
late eighteen hundreds. And you're still believing what they're saying
because they tell their members to actually burn books that
(46:13):
they're sent, not to believe anything that's written on the internet.
Speaker 10 (46:17):
People write lies on the internet. Ex members are just
bitter and want you to get caught up in their bitterness.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
So that's sort of the things that they say about
us to stop people on the inside. And it's very
similar to the whole Truman set up with Sylvia trying
to explained Truman, what's going what's going on with him?
Speaker 6 (46:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Absolutely, you have listened to Savenu Spectrum, Lies, Manipulation and
Blind Faith My Life inside Australia's Nameless Sect. This episode
was produced by me Arlin Haglund. If you or someone
(46:59):
you know is impacted by sexual assault or domestic or
family violence, call one eight hundred Respect on one eight
hundred seven three seven seven three two, or visit one
eight hundred respect dot org dot au in an emergency
call Triple zero
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