From Personal Trainer to Inc 5000 Landscape Company | Luke Bowling - Spectruss Speakeasy Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Once you make the plunge of I'm going to take the
risk of starting my own business.
I'm like just freaking swing.
You know, I have like all thesenotes written down on my papers
and said all right, so you know, here's the pros, here's the
cons.
And I didn't even finish, hecut me off and goes.
I don't really know why you'rehere, luke.
Yeah, we made the Inc 5000 listlast year, in 2024, for 2023.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
And we'll make that list again this year.
I remember my first time I puton a film festival.
A long time.
It was my probably my firstthing to try putting on an event
and it was I think it was like2009, so just getting out of
cycling trying to figure outwhat to do and I wanted to bring
a film festival to Chattanoogaand I brought the Telluride Film

(00:49):
Festival.
I had like a traveling tour andI brought it here and I rented
out the Chattanooga TheaterCenter, went and raised money
and then sold booth spaces.
I had no idea what I was doing,but I had to get up in front of
everyone and do public speaking.
I never had to do that beforeand I was like I don't want to
do it and get someone else.
I know you put the eventtogether, you need to go up
there and thank your sponsors,and so all you could think of

(01:10):
doing I'm like I'm going toforget everyone.
So I took a Sharpie and I'mlike this will crack everyone up
and it'll actually help meremember, and I wrote down all
the sponsors names Sharpie,that's the only I could find on
my arm and so I was like I wantto thank all my sponsors and I
pulled up my sleeve and, likeyou could see it from the
audience, there's like 380people there.
You know I'm sweating bullets.
I think I took a few shots ofwhiskey before too.
So I'm reading the sponsor.
I still forgot one of thesponsors.

(01:31):
It must have ran out of roomand I yelled it from the
audience.
But ever since then I'm likeall right, the more I can make
this it does, yeah it feelssuper comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Chairs are comfy.
It's a great space, cool.
I'm glad you like it.
I had to move.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
There's one chair in here.
I moved it out there becauseI'm so fidgety and it just
squeaks everywhere.
It kills the sound.
It feels great man.
Well, man, thanks for coming in.
I appreciate you coming in andchatting, excited to hear about
your journey and how Big SkyLandscapes came to be and how
you got there.
And you're telling me you'refrom Chattanooga, kind of
originally Florida, thenChattanooga, and how long have

(02:08):
you been in Chattanooga?

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, so I was born in South Florida, in Fort
Lauderdale, and I moved toChattanooga when I was like
three or four, or my folks movedto Chattanooga when I was three
or four, and I grew up inChattanooga, went to high school
and college in Chattanooga atUTC.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Okay, that's where I went to.
Oh, was it really?
Yeah, I dropped out, but that'swhere I went before I dropped
out.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Oh cool, yeah, I graduated from there in 2015.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay, sweet.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
I don't know if we would have overlapped any.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
No, I dropped out to try to go race in 2007.
I was supposed to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
No, I dropped out to try to go race in 2007.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
I was supposed to be here, I was supposed to graduate
, but I think I had like 30credit hours.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
It was pretty pitiful you know everybody's got a
different path and journey foreducation and it's just.
I think those things come downto timing more than anything
else.
It's kind of humbling as we getolder in life how much we
realize comes down to timing,like whether it's your education
or your work or relationships,whatever, all those things just

(03:11):
seem to come down to timing.
So you know, in spite of thefact that we miss each other at
UTC, you get hours doingeducation somewhere and then you
get experience somewhere else.
That's right.
What did you study?

Speaker 2 (03:25):
when you were there.
So it's computer science okay.
So I got enough experiencethere to understand, like, how
it worked.
You know the processes and um,your object-oriented programming
and some of that which was kindof epiphany.
You know, like I'd never alwayscurious how a computer worked,
how programming worked, and it'sabout curiosity led to me
taking those courses.
But then I kind of realized thetime it took to print the

(03:46):
textbooks and get them to acourse.
You got two years behind andeverything's changing.
Your programming just evolvedso quick so it's like, well, I
can go race bicycles and try tomake profession out of that, or
I can stay in school and comeout in a bunch of years maybe
and be two years behind.
So for my degree, I didn't?
you know, wasn't really worth itfor me.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
But it bought me some time.
Yeah, and I'm sure there aresome things, little or big, that
you learned in the 30 hoursthat you did take that stayed
with you in some capacity.
Right, that's right, yeah, verytrue.
So what did you go to schoolfor?
I studied criminal justice,okay.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
That's a pretty big change from criminal justice to
landscaping.
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
I watched a lot of Westerns growing up and was
intrigued by just the concept ofjustice and law enforcement and
wanted to pursue some sort ofcareer in federal or
international law enforcementoriginally, okay, and so I
studied criminal justice incollege and while I was in
college I had done a lot ofpersonal training.
So one of my first jobs waswhen I was in high school at the

(05:03):
downtown YMCA out here as apersonal trainer, and I loved
doing that and it was just superfulfilling to me.
So at the time when I was incollege I was still personal
training and and I got acertification or two to

(05:24):
basically kind of take mycapacity to be a personal
trainer to the next level,mostly to like receive more
income, personal training at theYMCA downtown.

(05:48):
But when I was finishing myundergraduate degree at UTC,
even though my degree was incriminal justice, I had work
opportunities in the field oflike fitness and exercise.
So Chattanooga Christian Schooloffered me a position coaching
strength and conditioning.
So when I graduated I wascoaching strength and
conditioning.
So when I graduated I was I wascoaching strength and
conditioning and doing personaltraining at the YMCA downtown,

(06:09):
and then that was just for asemester.
I was like filling in for a aslike a long-term substitute
teacher, okay, and college wasgood for me, but it was like it,
high-intensity, fast-paced time.
I worked as many jobs as Icould and did a lot of hours

(06:32):
each semester.
So I graduated a little bitearly and I think I just felt a
little burnt out when I finished.
So I went right into that jobwhen I graduated, did that first
semester and then I moved outto Montana and I worked in the
cattle industry there for aboutthree years, okay, and um, I was

(06:54):
.
I started out there on a guestranch and um, I was like you
know, uh it was, it was a guestranch where, like, people would
come out for a week or twovacation and they'd ride horses
and you know, I bet that wasbeautiful.
Oh, it was beautiful.
Yeah, it was really beautiful.
Yeah, I mean just like nothing.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
I had ever seen?
Are you there for like all,like all the seasons?
You see wintertime there too,or was it?

Speaker 1 (07:16):
yeah, yeah, I was there year round.
So the the the guest range thatI started at was like, um, it
was just seasonal, so they hadguests there from, and the first
guests would show up in likeMay and they would basically be
done receiving guests like atthe end of August, september, so
they only went for those couplemonths.

(07:36):
So when I first moved out thereI was just planning on going
there for the season to workthere, and towards the end of
the season there was a familycattle ranch down the road that
needed some help, so I took aposition with them, okay, and
when the season on the guestranch ended in August or
September, I just transitionedinto a full-time role with this

(08:00):
small family ranch and that wasmy first exposure to, uh, just
the elements of the northwestand it's a very different,
unforgiving environment than thesoutheast.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
I bet yeah, yeah.
So how'd you get from thereback to chattanooga?
Man, it seems like some peoplemove out there and not come back
.
You know it's such a beautifulplace.
You hear that.
I feel like you hear thathappening.
I've got a friend.
His daughter went out there foruh, I used to go go to college
and they have an equine program,I guess, somewhere in Montana
and she's just in love with it.
I don't think she'll ever comeback, you know.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, it's true Like there's a lot of people that
have that experience.
I've got a friend out thereright now that's like that.
He's from Chattanooga and he 10or 12 years and he said, like
I'm not coming back, like I justlove it.
I love it too much, and so itdefinitely has that effect on

(08:54):
people and it definitely hadthat effect on me.
I would say I loved it outthere.
It was awesome.
It was also pretty desolate and,like you know, I went we were
talking earlier about Zoommeetings and y'all not
necessarily like seeing a ton ofpeople during your workday.
Right For me in that time, itwas like you'd see more cows
than people in the course offive day or seven day work week.

(09:16):
Like it wasn't uncommon for meto go five days without seeing a
person.
Oh, wow, and so it was.
It was a good experience, butit was.
It was.
It was also challenging anddifficult in different ways.
So, anyway, I worked on thatcattle ranch for a couple of
years and then, um, I just hadsome things going on here with
my family.

(09:36):
My family was all still inChattanooga.
Uh, that made me want to moveback, for so when I moved back
to Chattanooga, that was in 2019.
When I moved back to Chattanoogaand excuse me, that was like
end of 18, kind of beginning of19.
And when I moved back toChattanooga kind of same thing,

(09:59):
like with my background infitness and personal training,
that was kind of the fastestwork opportunities that I had.
So I took a position as apersonal trainer with a boutique
personal training gym in NorthChattanooga, okay, and was
working there and doing anyextra work that I could.

(10:20):
On the side my brother ran aconstruction company, so I was a
laborer for him and puttingblocking in and purlins and
cleaning up construction sites.
And then I started doing somelandscape stuff on the side and
realized pretty quickly thatthere was a lot of opportunity
to do landscaping work and um,so I was kind of doing all that.

(10:50):
And then I also took a jobcoaching at another high school
here, macaulay, and startedteaching or coaching strength
and conditioning there too okayso I was kind of doing all, all
fitness and then just side work,yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
So at some point though, like the landscaping
thing, really you went all in onthat, right.
Yeah, yeah, I did.
What was kind of that momentthat made you want to go all in?
Was there a clear moment?
Or just kind of keep evolvingslowly and you're like all right
, well, I'll get more work, I'lljust keep doing it.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, you know.
Again, I think timing had ahuge impact on that process.
Like I was in a time in lifewhere I kept going why is it so
difficult to work somewhere forsomeone where I just get paid
more if I work harder?
Like I just didn't have thatexperience up to that point.
It was like whatever you areoffered or paid like, that's

(11:50):
your wage and if you work harder, maybe you'll get paid more but
maybe you won't.
And sometimes if Larry, who'snext, he's been working here
twice as long, he's just goingto make more money than you
because he's been working herelonger than you.
That's a great point.
So I think I had just kind ofthis like accumulated
frustration of, like man, why isit so hard?

(12:12):
Like it seems like a simple ask, right, if I work somewhere and
I work my tail off, can I bepaid more?
So the full-time job that I hadat the time there was just a
cap and no matter how much timeI spent doing things like
professional development orputting in more hours or taking

(12:34):
the initiative to be a leader onthe team that I was working on,
it was just like this is howmuch money you can make here,
and so that's what motivated meto do all that stuff on the side
.
And then, yeah, there wasdefinitely a point I think it
was sometime, probably like atthe end of it was kind of like
right around the end of COVID.

(12:55):
So 2020, 2021.
No, no, yeah, that's right, itwas probably 2020 where there
was just enough work and sideprojects for me to go.
I think I could earn a betterincome for myself and my family
if I was just doing landscapestuff full time or freelance

(13:16):
work full time.
Yeah, so at the time, I had oneor two guys that would help me
part time, like guys that I wascoaching, that would that would
want summer work, and they'dcome and work with me part time
in the summer.
And and then, yeah, it was justat a point where I was like,
all right, you need, you need tostart doing this full time, and

(13:39):
it was.
It was a leap, but I'll neverforget this was this was
impactful.
There was a guy that I wastraining at the time that owned
several businesses, had beenvery successful, and I asked him
if I could meet with him.
I wanted to talk about thedecision.
You know, like it was a kind ofa pivotal time for me of going.
This is going to define mytrajectory, like you know.

(14:00):
Yeah, like we all have thosemoments, but this felt like a
particularly pivotal time.
So I asked him if I could meetwith him.
His office was downtown.
I went and met with him.
I scheduled an appointment withhim.
I walked into his office andyou know, I had like all these
notes written down on my papersand said, all right, so you know
, here's the pros, here's thecons, this is the stuff that I

(14:25):
think I have a higher potentialin.
These are the areas thatthere's security in.
There's definitely a differencebetween those two.
You know and I'm laying all thisout I didn't even finish, he
cut me off and goes I don'treally know why you're here,
luke.
I was like kind of taken abackby it and I said well, you know
what do you mean?
He was kind of taken aback byit and I said, well, you know

(14:48):
what do you mean?
He was like you know what youneed to do?
And I was like, well, I, Idon't really feel that way
internally, that's why I'm here.
And uh, and he was like I, Ireally think you know what you
need to do.
And in the moment I kind ofjust took a, took a second and
thought, and then I looked athim and was like I need to just
take the plunge, don't I?
And he goes yeah, have a goodafternoon.

(15:09):
And so it was, like you know,it was literally like a seven or
eight minute meeting and he was, like you know, and of those
seven or eight minutes, like thefirst five was me just kind of
spewing, like you know,frantically my concerns of like,
what do I do?
Right you know frantically myconcerns of, like, what do I do,
right?
Um, so that was a cool moment,cause it?
It kind of it just felt like itemboldened me a little bit to
go all right, yeah, like, take adeep breath.

(15:33):
You had this gut that you were,um, not really listening to,
but wanted this, wanted counselfrom someone who was experienced
more in life and in business,and so it was a sweet moment for
me to have someone else go hey,just take a risk and take the

(15:54):
plunge.
And he knew me just fromtraining him, he knew that, like
I, he knew that what I wantedwasn't going to come from the
security of staying where I was.
What I wanted was going to comefrom taking the risk of the
unknown, which was quiteverything that you're doing and
go all in on something right.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
so sometimes that moment, yeah, that's really cool
moment.
It's almost like sometimespeople need myself included.
It's like someone eithervalidate and sometimes maybe
just give permission, youincluded.
It's like someone eithervalidate and sometimes maybe
just give permission, you know.
It's like, yeah, for somereason, I don't know why, but I
find myself like, whether it'sadding a new service or maybe
changing directions or focusingon certain industry my own
business, you know or or evenlike sometimes going racing

(16:38):
class, I ask my girlfriend,sometimes I call my should I
actually take the time?
I should be working you know,like should I really go racing?
It's like I want someone to giveme permission when we're our
own people but I don't know,I've experienced that Not to put
words in your mouth, but it'snice to have someone say, yeah,
you're doing the right thing.
It makes you feel a little morecomfortable with the decision.

(16:59):
At the end of the day, it's kindof all up to us to make it
happen right, but for somereason it feels better to have
someone, especially if they'reexperienced right and they have
multiple businesses and they'vetaken that risk.
And at the end of the day it'sscary as hell deciding to go
into business for yourselfbecause you're not guaranteed
anything but you have unlimitedpotential.
You know you can make thatmoney.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
The harder you work, you should make more money, like
you're talking about.
Yeah, that's exactly right andit is interesting because we do
have that and maybe it'sdifferent for everybody.
But I think to some extent weall have this barometer for
risk-reward decision-makingprocesses and go.
We all have different levels ofthis, but some of us are,

(17:49):
depending on what we want therewards to be in our lives, more
or less willing to take risksand allow that to be and kind of
define our decision-makingprocesses.
So, yeah, having someone elseaffirm that in a moment is it is
helpful.
Not all the time, because atthe end of the day, like you
said, it's still us making theyou said it's still us making
the decision and it's still usthat has to live with whatever

(18:12):
decision we make and right thedirection that it takes us, but
it is.
It's nice to get affirmationevery once in a while yeah, I
find it as I get older and older.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
I just had my 40th birthday last week and I find
that and I'd always heard thisbut as younger, I really make
decisions very quickly and I hadnothing to lose, I was
completely broke.
And now as you get older andyou start getting assets and
things and people that depend onyou and that sort of thing,
it's like it gets a little bitscarier to make these decisions.
I don't want to upset and loseeverything, but the more I study

(18:43):
other people that are verysuccessful you look at even Elon
Musk his first one comes tomind because he exits PayPal and
basically just reinvestseverything he just made and
diversifies it into SpaceX andall the companies Tesla went
into.
A lot of people would just belike, hey, I'm done, I'm going
to sit back, I'm going to put mymoney in the stock market, make
a conservative 6%, maybe 8% ona good year and just relax.

(19:05):
You see these people stillrisking everything all the way
to the day they die.
It's crazy to me.
Even Vanderbilt with therailroads he sold his.
I didn't know this until Idon't know, maybe 5, 10 years
ago, but studied some on him andhe had a whole boat freight
line whatever the right term forthat but basically all the

(19:26):
boats in the harbor in New YorkCity were mainly his, liquidated
all of it and at that time hewas like in his 50s or 60s which
a life expectancy then like hewas already at that, you know,
or above it Liquidated all of itand invested all into railroads
when he was in his 60s yeah,like already close to death and
he was already super wealthy inthe boats.
But he saw railroads comingalong Like to think about doing

(19:49):
that now and of course I have afraction of the money he has.
You know, nothing like that.
I'm like that's crazy.
That's really really ballsy.
You know to do that Pretty wild.
Anyway, just something that Istruggle with every day.
Like I spend obsessedresearching over like next moves
and sometimes you just have tolike take the leap and go for it
yeah, and you make it work asyou go.

(20:10):
Seems like it's worked great foryou.
I mean inc 5000 list best ofthe best.
Here in chattanooga, like youguys have seen a lot of quick
growth and yeah how has thatgone so well, so quick.
It's only been what?

Speaker 1 (20:22):
three years, four years, yeah, four years oh no,
no, that's, that's probably,that's probably like four to
five okay, okay, yeah I wouldsay I would say a little bit
closer to five, summer team fourand five years okay, um, that's
awesome growth.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
That's really impressive.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
You gotta be proud of that yeah, yeah, I, I am proud
and I'm proud of our team.
We've got a really hard-workingteam.
But uh, before I jump into that, I was gonna say too, like,
with the risk example that yougave about Vanderbilt, it is
interesting because in some ways, like, I relate to what you're

(20:56):
saying, but I also go as my lifeexperience continues and I've
taken more risks, I also feelmore comfortable with the risk.
I also feel more comfortablewith the risk.
You know, like, sometimes Ifeel like I've become a little
bit too comfortable with therisk.
I relate to what you're saying,but I also really relate to a

(21:16):
decision-making process likethat for him, where he's taking
risk after risk after risk, andthere's probably a certain
element of it that's becomepretty normal for him, just like
anything that you repeat or doa bunch, that kind of becomes a
little bit more like that's justhow he operated.
Yeah, that's true, he tookrisks and probably had a lot

(21:38):
more comfortability with takingrisks.
But yeah, it's been a crazyjourney the last five years.
There's been two moments.
So last night I did this againand thinking about coming here
to talk with you, but the othermoment where that happened was
when we found out that we madethe Inc 5000 list.

(21:59):
It was this moment, that waslast year, and my wife and I
were walking and, like an Inc5000 reporter called and was
like you know, you made the listand we'd like to interview you
and ask these questions and hearthe story about Big Sky
Landscapes.
And it was the first momentwhere, like I was like oh, okay,

(22:21):
yeah like I kind of looked upand you're like, well, yeah,
like what is our story?
And you know, like whathappened?
Like the last three years havejust been nuts.
Or now, like thinking aboutcoming in and talking with you
for a few minutes last night itwas like all right, yeah, what,
what, where, where, what hashappened?
Like the last five years havebeen crazy and um, and it's just

(22:43):
felt like heads down.
You're ripping and grinding and,like you know, running 1,000
miles.
It's like starting a train andfeeding coal in it and you get a
little faster and you'resweating and you get more coal
and the train's increasing inspeed and it needs more coal

(23:06):
because the speed's increased.
And you're also like throwingtracks out in front of it every
once in a while, you know.
And then all of a sudden you'relike, okay, this train is up to
150 miles an hour.
I'm still stuffing coal in it,sweating and throwing tracks out
in front of it.
Yeah and um, it's reallyimportant, tracks keep getting

(23:28):
put out in front of this trainand um, it's really important,
tracks keep getting put out infront of this train because it's
up to 150 miles an hour, youknow right so it's.
It's uh, there's.
There's two moments for mewhere it's like, okay, yeah,
pause, think about this.
Was that when we found out thatwe made the inc 5000 list?
And then, honestly, last night,again thinking about coming
here with you is like, oh,that's cool, um, all right, yeah
, what is what is our story?
Do you talk about this?
And so I think it's been reallyhealthy for me and I'm glad to

(23:50):
just get a moment to sit downwith someone like you and talk
for a second about it, because Idon't do this, I just don't
give the space to process andthink about what's happened.
I know it's really importanttoo.
So, anyway, the last five yearslike what's happened and I know
it's really important too, yeah, so so, anyway, the last five
years like what's happened.

(24:11):
It is, it's wild, like thatfirst summer, 2020, there were
two guys that were working withme part time and we've got, I
think, right, around 40, 41full-time employees now.
Oh, that's awesome.
And yeah, we made the Inc 5000list last year in 2024, for 2023

(24:31):
.
And we'll make that list againthis year.
That's great.
So it is exciting and fun toget to be a part of something
that has had so much growth.
But you know, in terms of thejourney forward or like what's
happened, I think, as I wasthinking about this last night,
I was realizing that there'sbeen so many opportunities to

(24:53):
like just pull back or come offthe throttle a little bit, and I
really believe what's allowedus to experience the growth rate
that we have in such a shortamount of time is, just simply
put, not pulling off thethrottle, and the great thing
about our country is that anyonecan do that, you know, if they

(25:13):
want to, and you can push thatpedal to the floorboard and not
lift your foot up until you'rewhere you want to be.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
And I'm really thankful that we live in a
country where we can do that,yeah, so, um, you know it.
Yeah, I was thinking last night.
I was like, I think it's.
I think there's been all thesepivotal moments of like, uh,
like clear landing spots wherewe could have pulled off the
throttle but didn't.
So a couple examples would belike when we first started five

(25:46):
years ago, I was doing lawnmaintenance mostly residential,
and I had one or two guys thatwere helping me part-time.
I was the one leading the routeand as I got a couple guys
hired that could do themaintenance route, I pulled back
and started doing someinstallation projects.

(26:07):
So I would check in with themaintenance guys and make sure
everything was going okay.
And then I had a guy that washelping me and I was installing
sod or stone or whatever, and Iwas pulling a four by eight
utility trailer in my 97 ChevyTahoe, stuffing sod in the back
of it and getting flat tires atthe sod farm in Ringgold to try

(26:30):
and go put sod out for, you know, my brother's construction
company or other clients.
So started doing someinstallation work as we had, you
know, our first like sufficientmaintenance crew.
And that was a moment where Iwas like, cool, there's a crew
that can work totally on theirown, yeah, you could pull back
here, you could also press in,there's an opportunity to start

(26:53):
doing installation work.
And then, as we started doinginstallation work and I was
training a couple guys to doinstallations, we were having
more maintenance opportunitiesthat came up and so I hired a
couple other maintenance guysand was training those guys.
The install guys started to beable to do things like put, saw
it out and I didn't have to beas involved in that and then

(27:16):
started training a secondmaintenance crew and we got our
first commercial maintenanceaccount.
And that was a big day.
You know it was a retirementhome that we were excited about.
That just had a little bit moresecurity and it was a little
bit more of a known variable.
You know there was a certaindollar amount that it was going
to generate in revenue everymonth for the year.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Gives you some peace of mind.
Knowing that, I'm sure yeahtotally yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
And then it just kind of evolved from there.
And I think two other things Iwould probably say or add to
that would be like one, mythought process throughout the
last five years has just beenlike, okay, who can replace me?
Like whatever it was I wasdoing, you know, when I was

(28:01):
driving the maintenance truckand leading the route, someone's
got to be able to sit on thezero turn that I've been sitting
on.
Someone's got to be able todrive safely the zero turn that
I've been sitting on.
Someone's got to be able todrive safely.
And so get someone who can dothat and then start doing
installations and someone thatcan do that.
And then you know, yeah, so Ithink that was a huge part of it

(28:22):
.
And then I also think about Ihad a lot of bad bosses.
Like I'm sure you had badbosses too in your life
experience.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
That's what made me quit my one corporate job I had
for four months.
It was for the North Face andthe Vanity Fair Corporation
owned the North Face.
I was employed by them as atech rep and my boss was just
terrible.
Actually, before I quit Icalled her boss and said look,
no one likes her.
I've only been here four.
Look, no one likes her.
You know, I've been here fourmonths, but fire her.
I've got a lifetime ofexperience mountain biking,

(28:52):
racing, road bikes, mountainbikes, high level rock climbing
at a high luck.
I know our core demographic.
I can speak with them, fire herand hire me.
I'll take her place and I'llhelp train the team so we can
better represent the North Face.
And he was like you may beright, but she's been here for
like basically you talked aboutearlier people people have been
here longer, get paid more.
That's the answer he gave me,and she was female.
On top of that, it's like Ican't.
She's female and she's beenhere for over five years.

(29:14):
Sorry, that's tough and so Iquit.
Yeah, I know what you'retalking about, so that's how I'm
like.
I don't want to work for a badboss.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah, you're right, that's exactly what I was
talking about earlier.
It is painful.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, you know I've been here longer I get, I mean
seniority over that, Like I meanI get it.
But I want to work my ass offand get rewarded, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah.
So having bad bosses like Ithink most human beings have had
, at least in the United States,have had that experience of
what it's like to have a badboss.
I also want to acknowledge thefact that I had a couple
incredible bosses and, eventhough the pay or the

(29:58):
compensation wasn't what Iwanted to be, they taught me
some incredible things and Ijust feel really fortunate to
have been able to have learned.
I had a boss that was at thatboutique personal training gym
who taught me the importance ofvaluing people over financial

(30:21):
gain.
So he was constantly inpositions where he would have
people come in to exploregetting a package of training
sessions and he would sit downwith them and talk through our
process and he'd have theopportunity to make a commission
on a sale and a lot of timesthe person that was coming in

(30:46):
had some sort of need whether itwas emotional or an actual
physical need and he wasconsistently able to objectively
say, hey, I think this is agreat fit for you and I think we
can help you accomplish whatyou need.
And he was able to say, or hadthe boldness to say, I don't

(31:07):
think you need this and I thinkyou can get what you need at
this place, or with a therapist,or with some diet corrections
or whatever.
And that was fascinating to meto see a leader who valued
people more than his ownfinancial gain.
That was one example.

(31:28):
His name was Kyle, and then um,and then the guy that owned the
gym taught me the importance ofjust wanting to be really
freaking good at your craft,whatever it is that you're doing
, like be detail oriented, uh,and he was like that with
everything.
And then and then another guythat I worked with at one of the

(31:49):
schools that I coached at intown here well, actually, both,
like, I, got to learn aboutleadership.
I got to learn about what itmeans to hold people to a
standard, and so I'm justmentioning those things because
I think they really played intoour ability to grow fast.

(32:11):
I'm sure and I just feel reallythankful for those people that,
with all the bad bosses thatexist in the world, I just feel
really fortunate to have hadsome really good people that I
got to work with and for and Ilearned from and was able to use
those things to help Big SkyLandscapes grow and be good,

(32:35):
yeah, so I mean two of thosethat jump out to me just from
the amount of home servicebusinesses that we worked with
and the negative connotationthat's associated with them
typically and every industry hastheir negative connotation.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
On marketing advertising, we have a ton of
them, you know, good Lord, youcan't look on every street
corner and not see a marketingadvertising person, you know,
and they're trying to sell yousomething that may work that day
.
But with home services, youknow, one of them is usually
leadership quality that'slacking.
So the ability to scale andmanage a team consistently seems
to be a problem.
And then the problem of notchasing money over people.

(33:12):
I see that a lot too, likepeople that will want to just
take them for all they're worth,not do a detail-oriented job.
I was partners in a smallconstruction company 15 years
ago now or whatever, for a shorttime, and that was always.
A challenge was hiring goodpeople and then holding them to
those standards of like, hey,we're gonna do this job right,

(33:33):
including like cleaning up thejob when you're done you know
all these little details thatcan leave a really bad taste in
someone's mouth.
Then it affects your referralsand your word of mouth and your
repeat business, you know, andthere's a lot of that.
So it seems like those lessonsyou learn, like it's been paying
off to be able to scale andhave 40 plus employees, you know
, and and be on this trajectory,on that kind of the perfect fit

(33:56):
.
I'm curious, how did you?
You know, as you're wearingthese different hats and then
you'll find a team to like takeone of the hats you know, and
then you'll get someone to runthat team and they're jumping
over here the whole time.
You're getting sales too.
Like how was the sales processprocess working?
You know you just had that muchreferral and word of mouth
coming in, or were you out doingthe sales part too, or cause it

(34:18):
seemed like he had quite a bitof demand there really, the
whole time you know, like yeah,um, yeah, that's a great
question.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
I think two things I would say back to that.
One is when I first starteddoing landscape work, people
would be excited that I wouldreturn their calls.
Or people would be excited that, like you know, I showed up on
Wednesday and I'd be like well,miss Jones, like I told you I

(34:48):
was going to show up onWednesday.
So, yeah, like I would hopethat you know you would expect
that.
And it was almost frustratinglike how easy it was to satisfy
the average consumer who wasgoing.
Like the bar was so low, sam,like the bar was so low Sam.
It was like the averagehomeowner who needed or wanted

(35:10):
to hire a professional landscapeservice was so used to not
getting calls back, not gettinga follow-up, someone not showing
up when they said they would,someone not doing what they said
they would do, all the way downto the cleanup after the work's
been done, to some minutiaedetail that was in the scope of

(35:31):
work for how they wanted acertain shrub pruned.
So I think the start of ourgrowth really began with just
going all right.
We really can't compareourselves to our competitors and
what other landscape companiesare doing, because the bar is

(35:53):
way too low and it's just not.
It's not what we want to use tomeasure like our success, like
we don't want to measure oursuccess by going do we call them
back.
Did we show up when we said wewould Like, we want to, we want
to kind of redefine the standard, and so I think that created a

(36:19):
pretty immediate referralopportunities, just because we
did the basics.
And the basics were show upwhen you say, do what you say
and value people over, you sayand value people over financial
gain and call people back sothat us choosing to do those
things started a pipeline ofsales that I don't think

(36:42):
anything else could have started.
And then the second thing thatI would say is um, that that
that same thing kind of happenedwith the commercial side.
So we got that one uh,retirement home I told you about
was our first maintenancecontract.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
And there was a development going in next door
to that retirement facility thatwas like a-family development
project that was beingconstructed by a construction
company that Berkshire Hathawayowned in Chattanooga, and so we

(37:20):
started doing some landscapeinstallations for them.
You know, they'd hire us to putsome sod out or they'd hire us
to do irrigation or somethinglike that.
And, um, like a year or two inthat Berkshire Hathaway division
or company closed theirChattanooga branch and they had

(37:45):
20 or 30 people that werelooking for jobs in the
construction industry and wantedto stay in Chattanooga.
So all those people spread outat different construction
companies.
Wow, perfect for you.
Oh man, it was.
Yeah, just, referrals wenteverywhere.
Yeah, referrals went everywhere, truly, and we had done a good
job for them.
Yeah, and our team had, likeyou know, communicated well with

(38:08):
them, cared about the installof their projects, like we.
Just we did what any consumerwould have hoped for or expected
.
So, yeah, when they closed downand all those people spread out,
it was all of a sudden like wehad opportunities with this
commercial company and thiscommercial production or, excuse
me, commercial constructioncompany, or this production home

(38:30):
builder, and thoseopportunities just came up.
And then there was also likethere was definitely
opportunities that I was likechasing like crazy.
Like one was a production homebuilder here in town who is
pretty renowned for being superloyal to their subcontractors.

(38:51):
Like if we have a drywall guy,we don't really change the
drywall guy that we use.
You know, we've used the samedrywall guy for 10 years.
We're not changing, we're notinterested in changing that.
It's rare that that happens inthe 21st century construction
industry, but it does happen.
Yeah, and so I, the owner ofthat company I got a meeting

(39:12):
with and asked if we could dolandscaping work for him.
This was like three or fouryears ago.
I said no, we have a landscaperlike we've used them for 10
years, we're not changing, sorry.
And every couple months I'dsend him an email or call him
and say if anything changes,please let me know.
If anything changes, please letme know.

(39:32):
It's still love and opportunity.
And a year later he called meand said our landscapers have
made too many mistakes.
We'd like to give you anopportunity.
And so they changed and we doall their landscaping work now
and they don't use any otherlandscaper besides us.
Wow, and they generate a chunkof revenue for big sky

(39:54):
landscapes each year.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
So there's, there's been opportunities like that
that um have come from us justchasing and I don't know why
that resilient you said thatgave me chills just thinking
about, like you, doing thosefollow-ups and thinking about
all the marketing systems thatwe try to put in place for a lot
of people to to do thisautomatically, which that do

(40:17):
help, but I think there'snothing that replaces that
sincerity you know from anindividual, especially if it's
the business owner, thatfollow-up.
And I wonder, if those timesyou're writing those emails, how
many touch points do you thinkyou had between that initial
meeting and then you closingthat deal with them?
How many times do you think youfollowed up?

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Probably somewhere between a dozen and 15.
But totally worth it.
Yeah, completely worth it.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Like wouldn't change that for anything Like so
thankful.
And in fact, it's experienceslike that that really embolden
you to kind of do crazy andweird things where you're like,
all right, I um I'm trying tothink of another example for you
um, yeah, there, there's been,there's been several things
where it's like I'll just call,like I just I'll just I'll call

(41:05):
you every single week until Iget an answer.
Right, and I'm sure you haveexperienced that too.
You're okay chasing until, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
It's a good characteristic because I would
imagine on this client of yours'side, it shows dedication.
Right, it wasn't like, okay, Igive up one time, but if he's
wanting attention to detail on ateam that's going to be
consistent, well, you've got oneperson, may follow up and have
the best of everything, but ifthey follow up one time, you've
got this other person with thiscompany that does really good

(41:40):
work and great work, and thenthey're following up
consistently 12, 15 times.
Like that would stand out to metoo.
You know that would be likethis person wants it more.
I think there's something tothat that a lot of people miss
these days.
You know, like even in all thetools that we provide with
automations, I think peoplestill sense that.
It's like a sixth sense.
It doesn't feel as sincere assometimes even emails of

(42:07):
misspellings I know it came from, not a robot.
Then it's like was like thisactually came from?

Speaker 1 (42:10):
that person.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
They just accidentally misspelled it.
Things that aren't perfect.
It's weird.
Those things cue me up now tobe like alright, that feels more
sincere to me.
Don't get me wrong.
You need automations of allkinds and all that as well, but
I think for these higher levelcontracts sometimes it's worth
it to put in that sweat equity,sweat label, whatever you want
to call it to get it.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
I couldn't agree more .
And no matter how muchautomation occurs and that's
that's the direction like 21stcentury America is going in
business, like that is.
Things are being automated moreand more with every week that
passes under our belts, butthere will always be an element
of that, like handwriting aletter or you know, reaching out

(42:52):
to the owner of a company andsaying like we'd like an
opportunity, and here's why, andhere's why I think it would
serve you better than any otherlandscape option out there.
Yeah, like being able to dothat.
It is integral, man, especiallyin the service industry.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Like I think it's critical and especially on the
b2b side.
You know, like, because you'rethis is a big contract that
could last you for a decade, youknow, maybe more, maybe forever
, um, so it's really worth itthen to have that authentic and
and coming from the owners, thatmuch more valuable.
Yeah, that's cool.
Right, it's very inspirational.

(43:27):
I'm sure anyone else that'slistening or watching hears that
it's probably going to makepeople want to pick up the phone
or send a sincere email oractually go after that person,
because, I don't know, it's justwhenever you see someone has a
passion, I think people want tobe around that Following up that

(43:48):
many times and going after thatjob, you, you want, that's
showing a passion you know, like, yeah, people respect that.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, you're right, it is, it's cool.
I hope it inspires orencourages people.
Um, every time I've seen thatin my life it's.
It's definitely encouraged andinspired me too, and it just
makes me thankful to to workwith a team like I think about
our most senior positions um, atBig Sky Landscapes now,

(44:12):
specifically our accountsmanager and install manager like
they're wired the same way,like those guys want to, they
want to strain and they want topush and they want to be the
best, and, um, it just makes youbetter when you work with
people like that, that wantthose that that want to strain

(44:33):
in that way or that want to pushthemselves to make what's good
better and make what's betterbest.
Yeah, um, so, um, as much asthat, as much as I hope that
that encourages or inspirespeople also, like I need that,
you know, like I need orinspires people.
I also need that.
I need to be exposed to that,like people who are doing that
sort of stuff regularly, peoplewho are hounding others to get

(44:57):
an answer, or people who arejust straining like that.
I think it really makes mebetter.
So I'm thankful for the guysthat we have on our team that
want to work like that too.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Yeah, I'm sure having a group that are all driven
around you, you know it's goingto rising tide lifts all ships,
you know.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
So how did you?
I mean, it seemed like you'vedone a really good job of hiring
and I feel like you know a lotof bottlenecks start way earlier
, probably even back down tolike expanding a residential
crew, cause I've had somefriends of mine that have done
well but they seem to get kindof stuck just in residential and
then to get to commercial, theninto installation and you know,
and have all these areas likedid how did you learn that?

(45:37):
Or how did you just something Iknow you talked about you had
those mentors before.
Did you just truly take that?
Or have you you know, learnfrom them and implemented it?
Or have you tested programsLike EOS is a framework that
I've tried implementing.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
What's EOS?

Speaker 2 (45:52):
It's Entrepreneurial Operating Systems, what they
call it, which is kind of acheesy name EOS is the acronym
for it, but it's a framework tohelp businesses scale, and so it
does everything from teach youhow to meet as a team and then
have accountability andspreadsheets and put
accountability on each person,and then you come up with basic

(46:13):
things like mission statement,who you are and then you
basically align your wholeaccountability team.
I put it in place because I'vealways struggled with that um
and it sounds like you've done areally good job out of the gate
with it.
You, you know like having goodteam members and even the hiring
process sounds like it's gonereally well.
Is that just?
You know you had any guidancethere.
You figured this out as you'vegone.

(46:34):
It's really impressive.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, I, I want to hear more about that for you,
just in your journey with it,like as your struggle, that I'll
answer this.
But like, has that been for you?
Like you saying you'vestruggled to implement it,
you've struggled to, like createthe structure for it, or you've
struggled to, like implementits day-to-day implications on

(46:58):
your team?
Like, I'd like to hear moreabout that.
Yeah, so it's a good question.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
So I've struggled with the EOS implementation.
That's helped us a lot, but Istruggled before EOS, especially
because there were some thingsthat you know nailing down
accountability for each personand knowing where because I'm
probably comes back topsychology, me I'm hardest on
myself and I know it's probablynot always fair, being the

(47:23):
business owner, to be as hard oneveryone else and expect the
same, you know, because theydon't have the same reward.
I have to it.
But there's also a part wherethey're getting paid.
There needs to be like clearoutline like here's what they're
accountable of and to methere's some of this comes back
to my industry, with there beinga lot of options for marketing,
advertising and some of thestaffing issues and stuff like

(47:47):
that and the turnover.
You know, like us turning overemployee can kind of uproot a
lot of problems.
You know, the training is kindof particular, like there's a
different way of doingeverything and they usually have
to be somewhat high level.
So it's kind of scared me.
All that say, you know, said itscared me to be too hard on
people.
But there's that fine line ofwalk where it's like at one

(48:14):
point in my life I think I wasreally hard on people and then I
kind of turned like I wouldexpect a ton from them, you know
, and if it was three strikesyou're out, like I was third
striker out the door, maybe twoand a half strikes, which I do
believe in that we have a threestrike system with eos.
I think eos just helped medocument it more and sometimes I
would get things in my head andI wouldn't always portray it to

(48:35):
the employees like this is whatI expect of you, you know.
Like having sops for everyposition, like we've finally
done now, but shit, it took me10 years to do sops.
You, you know, this is stuff Ishould have done early on for,
like launching a website, forinstance, or launching a CRM, or
running an ads campaign.
So it seems like you've done alot of that stuff.

(48:58):
Like I mean to have 40employees and it sounds like
it's running smoothly, and Imean I'm sure there's hiccups,
but you scaled really well.
It sounds like, you know, and alot of landscaping companies
get stuck early on.
You know a lot of them don'tmake it out of it.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yeah, yeah, it can be easy to get stuck with hiring
and, don't get me wrong, justthe fact that we have 40
employees, like there arepersonnel and employee headaches
weekly, sometimes daily, sothat, like, I think one of the

(49:33):
things that's helped me withthat is when I was growing up, I
generally just had thisworldview that things in life
were supposed to go right andthen whenever something went
wrong, it was frustrating ordisappointing and probably

(49:53):
sometime around my early 20sjust realized that my worldview
needed to shift a little bit,and not that I'd become a
pessimist, but I needed to startto expect for things to go
wrong and I need to expectthings to be difficult, and I
need to expect that there'sgoing to be challenges and

(50:17):
difficulties, especially whenthere's a standard.
And if there's a standard, it'skind of like if there's a
standard and if there's astandard, it's kind of the um,
it's kind of like if there's astandard, you should really
expect some things to not goright.
Right, because that's reallyevidence that, um, there is a

(50:37):
standard if things aren't goingright or if there is conflict.
So, probably 10 years ago or so, I just um think that some of
the good leaders that I wasworking for helped influence my
worldview.
That was like you need toexpect more things to be
difficult and to go wrong andyou need to be okay with

(50:58):
conflict, like really okay withconflict, like have a
willingness to step intoconflict and and sometimes it's
good as a leader to um to makeconflict and figure out how
people are going to respond anddeal with it and use that
evidence to help inform how youwant to develop the people that

(51:21):
you're working with each day.
And the same in my life, like Ineed people who, in my life,
are going to be willing to stepinto conflict with me and uh can
see me for the areas that Ineed to grow in and improve into
.
And so I think that's that waskind of the starting point was
like going I gotta be, I gottabe really comfortable with

(51:42):
conflict and um, and I shouldexpect things to be difficult
and not go well.
I think that framework helps.
Like no matter what system youimplement or what cultural uh
curriculum you're studying oranything, if you're not starting
with a framework of I'm okayengaging in conflict, like real,

(52:06):
meaningful conflict, and Iexpect that in my business or in
my life or in my recreationalactivities, if I expect that
things are going to go wrong,like all that stuff is, it
starts to.
It starts to just feel a lotmore approachable and attainable

(52:27):
, you know, um.
So I think that was a startingpoint.
And then, um, there was a lot ofmoments or times where those
things were going on, like therewas conflict, things weren't
going right or, you know, wewould say like, like, so our

(52:50):
first couple years there weredefinitely things that I would
say or people would know wewould expect.
It wasn't necessarily definedin the form of a core value or a
mission statement at that time,but they were there, you know.
It just wasn't like written onthe wall, so to speak.
So some of those things werelike sustain the effort that was

(53:14):
one that we talked about a lotwhich was like look, in the
service industry there's a lotof days and moments where it's
four o'clock or 4.50, and it's aThursday or Friday and there's
10 bags of mulch left and you'resweaty and you're dog tired and
you're dirty and you might havea date for 6 pm, but doggone it

(53:37):
.
The expectation is thateverything gets done and all
that gets out and and and youknow when.
When people hear that enoughthey understand that that's the
expectation, and when thatdoesn't happen, yeah, we would
address it.
I mean, most of the time Iwould address it really fast and
people would understand that,oh yeah, this, this is.

(53:59):
This is kind of different here,like we are being held to a
different standard here in termsof the effort that we bring to
our work every day.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Has that caused some extra turnover?
Having that high standard?
Yeah, definitely.
You probably had to flush somepeople out yeah, definitely.
But it seems like that's one ofthe big differentials to how
you become an Inc 5000 companyis not by letting people slack
off at 4 o'clock and slide intothe weekend.
You know like it's a big deal.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, exactly, it is a big deal and I think for all
of us, like it was easy to getbuy-in from the people that were
there at the beginning, becauseit was always like look at 4.50
on a Friday afternoon, if it'syou, sam or me, that's got a job
that we're managing and there's50 bags of mulch left, or

(54:52):
there's three lawns left to cut,or there's two more pallets of
sod that need to go out, orthere's 500 more feet of wire
that need like whatever it is,if it's you or me and we have a
team of people, we want the guysor the people next to us who
are going to go, let's, let'sgiddy up and get this done Right

(55:13):
.
Like that's the people that yougo heck, yeah, I want that
person next to me, right.
So it was pretty easy to go.
Hey, this is, this isn't justthe expectation.
Like this is just simply whatwe all want at the end of the
day.
If it's you or me and it's four,50 and it's Friday afternoon,
like we want the people next tous who are going to go, let's

(55:33):
get this done.
And put four bags on myshoulder instead of two, because
I'm fired up and I'm okay, I'm,you know I'm, I'm okay If I
face plant Like.
We had moments like that.
It's even still.
We're like if someone put fourbags of mulch on their shoulder
and they face plant it, going upa hill and spill the bag of
mulch, like we would celebratethat.
Yeah, and we go like seriouslylike they.

(55:55):
There were moments where thathappened and we'd give someone a
hundred dollar bonus for faceplanting and spilling mulch
everywhere, and it took moretime, but the effort was what we
wanted to reward andacknowledge and say like that's
exactly what we're looking forand that's exactly what we need.
So then it was all right.
Simply put, like I told you, myexperience was why is it so

(56:19):
hard to work for someone who, ifI work hard for I'll get paid
more for right?
And then, as we started growing, it was like that's all I
wanted, so that's, that's that'swhat we're gonna do.
You know, if you're someone whoworks really hard, you're gonna
get paid more money, period.
And and that was people'sexperience, you know, because,
because we actually did that, umlike gotta have that reward.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Yeah you get, if you want to keep the best you got,
to reward them.
Otherwise they're going toprobably want to go out on their
own or you know, or gosomewhere else, and yeah it
makes sense.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Probably makes you feel better demanding more of
them too.
If you're giving them more fordemanding that much, it wouldn't
be, you know.
Be like, all right, I'm goingto get rewarded for it, like
that feels more honest and Idon't know more uh character
doing it that way, as opposed tolike demanding everything and
then how people usually view acapitalist, you know, and it's

(57:12):
like well, we can pay them all,pay everyone.
Everyone makes money, right,not just the owner of the
company.
Yeah, I'll get to make moremoney and work for a better
company that has good characterand longevity, because we're not
losing clients, because you'reface-planting at the end of the
day, pushing that much harder,you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
Yeah, people see that you know a team that's
servicing a property leaves at4.50 and leaves a bunch of
debris.
You know where it shouldn't beon sidewalks or in their
driveway.
They notice that, and they alsonotice when a crew stays until
5.24, making sure that there'sno issues and that the job's

(58:00):
complete before the weekend hitsand you've got activities that
you want your property lookinggood for or whatever.
So, yeah, people do notice thatyou're right and so so I think
I would say that was going onand happening.
It wasn't defined until about ayear ago we started to define

(58:26):
those processes and we definedthem as like okay, instead of it
just being like, so-and-sohasn't missed a day of work in
six months.
They've been bringing a highlevel of effort to their work.

(58:46):
Every day.
They stayed late and got someflowers put in for you know
metropolitan properties orwhatever on the 17th.
Instead of it just being allright here's those examples
they're getting a $5 raise.
It became all right.
We need an actual structure forthe process of that.

(59:07):
So what we started doing wasbasically a performance review
that, for a new employee, occursfour times in their first year
and for existing employees,happens twice.
So basically everybody at ourcompany gets the opportunity to

(59:29):
receive a raise twice a year, or, if they're a new employee,
they get four opportunities inthat first year and there's a
structure for our performancereview that's basically are you
living out our core values?
And if you're living out ourcore values and you meet the
specific criteria and yourleader or your direct report can

(59:51):
give specific examples of thosespecific core values, then
you're going to get paid moremoney.
Yeah, so that's that's kind ofhow it's been defined now.
So's been, it's, it's beendefined now and we have core
values in a mission and visionstatement, uh, and that all
happened intentionally over thelast, uh, about a year ago, okay

(01:00:12):
, so that's.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
I mean.
It sounds like a greatincentive package, you know, and
should help you hire betterpeople and keep them longer.
You know like having that veryimportant because that's one of
the.
You know many of my friendsthat their owner operator, like
painting business or you knowmultiple friends have painting
businesses in different parts ofthe south that I race

(01:00:34):
motorcycles with and that's oneof the challenges they've had
and they try to scale up in thepast is like managing employees,
you know, and that's always oneof the, because you have to get
the good ones.
But to get the good ones, butto get the good ones you've got
to pay them more or have somesort of performance plan like
you're talking about.
It seems like what you've done.
You've figured that out, youknow, because it probably would
have already reared its head,you know earlier on, before 40

(01:00:55):
employees.
So that's really cool to see.
That's a big pain point forhome service businesses.
You know it's hiring andscaling and managing the people
and it seems like you're doing agood job of it.
So congrats to that thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
we've definitely had some people besides myself that
have contributed substantiallyto creating those and defining
those processes and that's beenreally helpful because it's
allowed us to, like, stay on ourtrajectory of growth and not,

(01:01:30):
yeah, just there are certainpoints where defining those
things and putting them on paperand someone being able to say
this is how Big Sky Landscapesdefines leadership, or this is
how we define performance,success At some point that
becomes really important and itcan't just be like what Luke

(01:01:55):
says, or when you bring a goodlevel of effort, that's good.
So, yeah, I'm glad that we've.
I think defining those thingshas been integral to our
continued growth and will beintegral to our continued growth
.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
So those things you're talking about are very
similar to like basically whatEOS does.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Oh is it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Yeah, it's one of the first things you really focus
on is core values.
Yeah, so it sounds like youguys are picking up the exact
things you're supposed to bedoing.
Um, not that EOS is like theperfect thing, but a lot of that
stuff.
I kind of I I lack identifyingthat.
You know, I tend to kind ofjump right into getting into the
work and fulfilling it and Ithink I tend to be more of a
behind the scenes person a lotof times, like doing the work

(01:02:41):
and probably comes from being afreelancer originally, like
building websites of my own anddoing all the photography and
video and and kind of getting inthe weeds, like I'll nerd out
behind a computer sometimes.
But you got to have thesesystems in place for everyone
else you know to to help that.
Help them feel like they have acompany they can grow in and
yeah, exactly what they need tobe doing and it's important you

(01:03:03):
know.
So that's good.
You guys have that all out onpaper.
That's what all the goodcompanies do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Yeah, it is really important.
Where are you all at with that?
Now?
You would say.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
So I think we started EOS two years ago, something
like that, and so every week wehave what we call a level 10
meeting.
As part of it, it's an hour anda half meeting meeting and
there's actual structure to it.
And so we've always had weeklymeetings and usually multiple
week meetings.
And now we went back to um,cause we're getting a point
where we're growing more rapidlyagain.
I'm starting to push growthmore and um.

(01:03:35):
Having a lot of people remote,like I was talking about earlier
, has some challenges, you knowit's.
It can be good because I canour business.
It allows me to hire, maybespecialized talent elsewhere.
So we have, like, a programmerin Croatia, a programmer in
Brazil, project manager inColombia, copywriter in Colombia
.
It's allowed me to pick peoplethat meet the criteria I'm

(01:03:56):
looking for exactly, as opposedto, like, having to recruit to
Chattanooga.
So we have some specializedlabor that you know have to
program in certain programminglanguages or whatever it may be.
But working remotely all thetime also has, like you know, do
I know exactly what they needto be doing?
Where is that documented?
You know, how do we hold themaccountable to what they need to

(01:04:16):
be getting done?
Because not everyone is aself-starter.
I wake up each day and it'slike instantly I'm working.
I pretty much think about workuntil I go to sleep.
I don't expect my employees tohave that same mentality.
I want them to actually have theability to clock in and then

(01:04:37):
clock out and get stress reliefafter work.
But it's helped have thisframework to where, on Thursdays
, we have a spreadsheet andeveryone has like all the tasks
and, for example, to give you anexample, what that would look
like would be like ad dollarsspent each week for us
personally as a business.
So this weekly meeting for uson Thursday is just our own
business.
So we focus on how many addollars we spent, how many leads

(01:04:59):
that create how many discoverycalls, how many marketing audit
calls, consultations, how manyleads that create how many
discovery calls, how manymarketing audit calls,
consultations, how many firesamong our clients.
Do we have any fires?
Any clients that downgraded,clients that left, clients that
upgraded new followers on socialmedia, how many websites are in
programming, how many CRMs arein setup, and so it kind of
gives us ability to look ateverything that's going on and

(01:05:23):
understand.
If we need to like, focus moreattention on something, and then
we assign a person to every oneof those, so that way, like
each week, they know they'reheld accountable to that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
So you all cover that in those weekly meetings.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
And then we have, you know, he kind of gave like
little you know gimmicky namesto everything, but they have an
IDS, which is the majority ofthat level 10 meeting.
It's 60 minutes of it and it'sidentify and solve, identify,
discuss, solve.
So we'll pick our top threethings that we want to identify
as problems as a company thatwe're experiencing, whether it's

(01:05:57):
delivering a project quicklythat's something that we always
try to get better at, becausewe've got to be fast and people
want results right now, and soif that's one that comes up,
we'll mark it at the top andthen two more we vote on it as a
team and then that's all wefocus on.
If we get those done, we'll goto more, but we don't go to the
next one until we identify theproblem, we discuss it and we
have a solution.

(01:06:18):
And the solution might be weresearch it or certain members
work on it, and then we have atask that next week we have to
solve.
That, you know have a solutionfor it.
So hopefully we can solve itright there.
But sometimes they're complex,you know, like sometimes it's
how do we get better leads forourselves?
How do we get our own messagingout there?

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Like that's something we still have a hard time with.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Messaging like for prospective Spectre's client,
for prospective specters clients, or yeah, exactly.
There's one thing that that wehave a challenge with, because
we're not niche specific withspectras, um, and there's so
many niche agencies and so manymarketing agencies whether it's,
you know, someone working intheir mom's basement or someone
in a big building somewhere youknow there, there's all kinds of
noise in it.
So how do we get our messageout there?
You know what is our message?

(01:07:07):
So something we're alwayscritiquing and working on, and
it kind of helps us identifythat and hopefully use data to
solve it.
You know, do we get new clients?
Do we not?
Do we lose clients?
That sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Yeah, using that data to inform your decision-making
process as a leader is soimportant.
Yeah, the coach that I workedfor um here in town it was one
of the first places where Ilearned that they were like
making all of their exerciseprescription decisions and
programming decisions based offof data that was being collected

(01:07:42):
by performance in workouts, andit was fascinating to me to
realize, oh, the data that youcollect actually can really
inform the decision makingprocess for whatever it is that
you're doing.
Yeah, so I know that's big foryou guys, especially like when
y'all are like the stuff thaty'all are doing for us with SEO,

(01:08:07):
like all of that.
Yeah, which dollars y'all allotwhere and which ads where.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
It all comes from data that you're collecting
right, right, right, andsometimes there's always ebbs
and flows and everything.
But it helps us realize, or tryto understand.
Why is there ebbs and flows,you know, like why did the ads
not produce as many leads thismonth?
Or why did SEO drop?
And then when there's success,we get to see the success too,
like why are the ads producingmore?

(01:08:34):
It gives us something to notjust go off of feelings.
Right, because even with design, design's a tough one.
Early on we used to do a lot ofbranding projects and we still
do.
We don't push that as like abig thing we go for it's usually
like if a company's newer,we're going through a rebrand
plus and everything else, theymight have us do a branding
project for them.
But branding projects are hardto provide a return on

(01:08:56):
investment, you know, becauseit's kind of subjective.
It's like well, do you likethis color?
What do?

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
you like this color.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
You know how much is a different color?
How much more money will itmake your company?
It's kind of hard to relatethat.
So then the price is justreally about like, I guess your
experience maybe, or if theylike your design, or maybe
hourly.
But hourly doesn't necessarilymake you a good designer.
You know it's hard to we wantas much as possible than we do.

(01:09:25):
to come back to a return oninvestment, because marketing
advertising your line item andyour spreadsheet, if it's 10%,
it should be making youmultiples of that you spend
whatever that is that's how itshould work.
So, as much as we can use data,it takes some of our feelings
away and it makes it morelogical.
As much as we can be logical,yeah I hope that made sense at

(01:09:46):
all or not, sometimes I'llramble on.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
But no, it makes perfect sense.
So a lot of y'all's clientslike us where you're going,
there's a, there's a directmetric that we use to measure
our success and, like for bigsky landscapes, you know that we
need more leads generated sothat we can increase our annual
revenues by X dollars and youguys can measure exactly how

(01:10:12):
many leads are generated from umthe marketing and ad dollars
spent are most of those clientslike like us, and that you're
able to make those decisionswith pretty straightforward data
.
Or or do you guys do a lot oflike rebranding projects where

(01:10:34):
it's a little bit moresubjective and ambiguous good
question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
yeah, we haven't really done a new rebrand
project or a new brandingproject, and it's's been a
little while.
We did one for like a podcastfor dermatology practice.
We did like a logo for them.
You know a full rebrand.
At one point we got rebrandsthat were up to like $80,000
rebrand projects, but they werebig, they were very research
intensive.
That was for a beverage companyand it was a beer line and we

(01:11:01):
did like Hutton Smith brewinghere in Chattanooga and then we
worked with Chattanooga whiskeyand so we've had some experience
in that line and those.
You definitely, if you're goingto go for product launch, you
want to have some research in itand most of that research is
going to be based on what's thetarget.
Demographic will be one thing,and also when you get to
designing for a shelf space in agrocery store or in a

(01:11:22):
convenience store, like there'ssome, you know I don't know if
you want to call it designpsychology, it goes into it but
you're thinking about placement,how you stand out against other
colors or other.
You know packaging, design,that sort of thing.
So those get kind of intensiveand you also have to tell your
brand story.
You know like there's a lotthat goes into branding.
We don't do as much of thoseanymore because, like I said,

(01:11:51):
it's just the price is always.
It's hard to bid those.
To be honest, you know, likeit's the most expensive one we
did, which is around that 85 000mark, didn't do as well as the
one that we did for one-tenth ofthat back when we're just
getting started branding in,like 2013-14, and when you say
didn't do as well, what's yourmeasure for success on?

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
that like they're back when we were just getting
started branding in like 2013,14.
And when you say didn't do aswell, what's your measure for
success on that?
Like their satisfaction.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
I guess the success of the actual brand itself, Like
the first one we did was HuttonSmith Brewing.
Like they still had the samepackaging, same design.
They've added, of course,different flavors you want to
call it that different beers totheir beer line, and so the
colors have changed.
But the main logo, the main candesign.
All that's the same from theone that Justin designed in, I

(01:12:33):
think, 2014.
And we did that one for I thinkall in, and we did website, tap
handles, apparel packaging forthe cans, boxes, I mean
everything.
It was a lot of work.
I think we were maybe $4,000back then, a fraction of the
price, one-fifth of less thanthat, one-twentieth of the price

(01:13:00):
.
That one's still out there.
That product did really well.
There's a lot more that goesinto because the, the design, is
just one part.
But then you have is the productgood?
Is their placement good?
Do they really believe in theirbrand?
I think the one we did that wasmore expensive.
I don't know who they were.
The product was pretty good.
You know that.
I just only it resonated withthe people trying to sell it to.
They had distribution set up.
They had fulfillment set up.

(01:13:21):
They're piggybacking offanother brand they had that was
already in that similar space,but it was non-alcoholic and so
they had everything else naileddown to where it should work.
But there was still kind ofthis, if you want to call it a
sixth sense.
I don't know, but I think itdidn't resonate with the people
because I didn't really feel thepassion behind it.
I think that first one we didof hutton and smith, like you

(01:13:42):
could meet the owners.
They were here in Chattanooga,they had a tap room.
You could go talk to them.
Like I think people wanted toknow why they were supposed to
like this brand hmm, so.
I don't know if that makes senseat all, but most of the stuff
we do now is is a lot of itslead generation.
So, like what we do for you, sothat is a majority of our
clients now building buildingwebsites and then help getting

(01:14:03):
more leads with advertisement,manage those leads and, ideally,
if they let us put all thesoftware in place to where we
can track a lead all the waydown to did they become a paying
customer?

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
How do you do that?
From the lead had anappointment scheduled.
The lead had an appointmentscheduled.
What do you do from there totrack a service company's
ability to send a quote and thenthe time that passes between

(01:14:37):
the quote being sent and a yesor a no, and then job execution?
How would you track that?
Because I would assume everyservice industry business is
going to have or maybe notservice industry, every
different business is going tohave a different way of tracking
that from quote sent orestimate sent to project
completion.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Yeah, that's a good question.
That is one of the pain pointsthat I want to work on coming up
with a better solution.
And the challenge that we haveis that there's kind of a manual
aspect to it, still meaninglike, say, we have the
opportunity funnel and you moveit from a deal comes in a lead,
I should say, comes in, say, acontact form submission that
comes from SEO, we track that.
I mean you move it through,you're contacted once, contacted

(01:15:17):
twice.
They finally answered, you wentand saw their site, gave them a
quote we can have columns forthat as well but then there has
to be a salesperson who'smanually updating it and ideally
moving it into a closed, likethis deal, closed as a one, and
it will have a value amountthere and typically it's a
yearly value.
So how much is it going to beworth over the next 12 months?
And then that's still manual.

(01:15:39):
The challenge we have is thatthat's pretty standard, but a
lot of companies that we'reworking with also have some sort
of CRM of their own, whetherit's like Service Call Pro or
one of these other quotingbidding softwares in place to
communicate, and so their CRMmay not function as well or give

(01:16:00):
us all the functionality weneed, like the one we use built
on Go high level.
So it's kind of been like weuse ours for the marketing,
advertising side to get to atrue point of conversion and
then it gets pulled intoHousecall Pro or whatever
they're using for managing thequotes, leads, recurring work,
that sort of thing.

(01:16:20):
So I don't know if that makessense at all.
But there are some APIsavailable, but ideally,
funneling those two together,having them talk back and forth,
the goal would be just toalleviate any unnecessary manual
labor.
I'm not a big fan ofovercomplicating the tech space
and having all kinds ofplatforms people have to log
into.
It just makes standardoperating procedures that much

(01:16:44):
more complex for your team.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
You know you got to now train them in all these
platforms yeah, that's so that'swhat we're always trying to
work on and simplify and thenmake it as easy as possible for
for you all and for the clientsso it's like go high level yeah,
that we're using that would belike the platform that you're
saying, that data or informationwould get entered in manually

(01:17:06):
yep, yeah, yeah, so the leadsflow into automatically.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
We have some abilities in that for, like ai
uh, communication and that sortof thing you know to get them to
a point of you know, booking acalendar time for a quote or it
may be.
But then there is some manuallike moving it through the
pipeline stages.
But, you know always trying towork to make that better, and
you know that's one thing that,especially in home service

(01:17:30):
businesses, you know what peopleall the blue collar thing that
you know people want to use todescribe that industry as
usually the follow-up, like youmentioned earlier, doesn't
really exist.
You know like people usuallydon't get a call back, they
don't show up on time, and so Ido think these platforms really
help that, especially with thosecompanies that struggle with it
.
You know they can havereminders of like oh, I need to

(01:17:51):
follow up with this lead.
You know they called yesterday.

Speaker 1 (01:17:54):
Yeah, follow-up is critical.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
Critical man.
I had one question.
I want to ask you to kind ofwrap all this up.
So when you were mentionedearlier, you went and talked to
your kind of mentor client thatyou were training at the time
buddy of yours and you spentseven minutes basically in and
out of his door, you know, andhe said that you know what to do
, you just need to do it on yourown.
Now, what was that?

Speaker 1 (01:18:18):
five years ago.
Four years ago, that was sixyears ago.
Six years ago, four years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
That was six years ago.
Six years ago.
Okay, how, after going throughthis whole journey, are you
happy you did it?
You think you made the rightdecision back then to go out on
your own and do all this.
Is there anything that youwould have done different?

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
I'm happy I made that decision.
Definitely it was the rightdecision for me to make.
Would I do anything different?
That's a good question.

(01:19:15):
I'd like to think about itcritically.

(01:19:36):
Um, um, honestly, the firstthing that comes to my mind is,
you know, at the beginning ofour time together, we were
talking about just individualisttolerance for risk, and I feel

(01:20:00):
like I've become morecomfortable with risk in a lot
of ways.
And I feel like I've becomemore comfortable with risk in a
lot of ways.
You sound like you were maybemore willing to take risk when
you were younger and nowbecoming less interested in
taking risks.
And as I've become more willingto take risks, and the one
thing that I would say to answeryour question is I wish that I

(01:20:22):
had had.
And the one thing that I wouldsay to answer your question is I
wish that I had had.
So you know, I took the risk oflike quit all your part time and
full time, secure income jobsto start your own business.
That was a risk, but there wereall sorts of moments pretty
early on where I could havetaken more risk.

(01:20:45):
So like one was us buying abuilding and having a space of
our own.
We rented space for the firsttwo years, and that's okay.
Um, that's okay.

(01:21:06):
It's just part of theprogressive evolution of any
business or anything or anyconcept that just occurs over
time.
But there was one thing that Iwould say immediately I wish I
had done differently.
It would be like when I saidyes to the risk of starting my
own business, I would have takenmore risk early on.
So, like over the last twoyears, I would say I've taken a

(01:21:31):
substantially greater amount ofrisk than I did in the first two
years.
So I think if I was going to doit over again, I think if I was
going to do it over again, Iwould take more risk out the
gate.
Okay, that's what I would say,with doing things like investing

(01:21:54):
in assets for the business orwhatever.
It is like the risk of hiringsomeone who is really talented
and needs to be paid more moneyearly on, like just yeah, taking
more risk early on, I thinkonce you make the plunge of I'm

(01:22:15):
going to take the risk ofstarting my own business, I'm
like just freaking swing, youknow, and it can be easy to like
take the risk and then you'relike, all right, you know, I'm
like just freaking swing, youknow, and it can be easy to like
take the risk and then you'relike all right, you know, I'm
here and I don't feel like I cando anything and I just took
this big risk so I got to bereally careful.
But like man, you take thatrisk.

(01:22:35):
And now I'm like, once we takea risk, like just freaking,
swing and swing hard.
Once we take a risk, it's likejust freaking, swing and swing
hard.
And if you're going to miss,you know miss hard and take some
big risks early on.
So for anyone who's like in theprocess of do I take the risk
or not, don't do it halfway,like really, if you have some

(01:22:58):
level of security or confidencethat you can kind of use as a
blanket for yourself, great.
But, man, once you take thatrisk, I think your chance for
success increases substantially.
If you just go, I'm ready toswing.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
So that's what I would say, that's what I would
do differently.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:23:19):
Great answer.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Appreciate it.
Well, we just had one cameraturn off here, so I guess that
means that was a good time towrap up.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
Yeah, good, that's right Well man, it was awesome
to meet you in person and reallyfun to see your studio space
here, and thanks for asking mequestions about Big Sky
Landscapes.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):
Absolutely.
Thanks for coming on andchatting with me.
It was really fun.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
It was inspiring to me.
Like I loved hearing all youknow your view on and all that.
Like I, it helped me justhearing all that so thanks for
sharing all of it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
Yeah, man, absolutely , it was fun.
Hope to do it again soon.
Yeah, absolutely, love to haveyou back.

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From Personal Trainer to Inc 5000 Landscape Company | Luke Bowling

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}From Personal Trainer to Inc 5000 Landscape Company | Luke Bowling