From Skeptical Bankers to 8 Gyms: High Point Climbing's John Wiygul | Spectruss Speakeasy Podcast

In this episode of Spectruss Speakeasy, Sam Silvey sits down with John Wiygul, founder and president of High Point Climbing and Fitness. From explaining what rock climbing even was to skeptical bankers 12 years ago to now operating eight facilities across three states, John shares the remarkable journey of building the Southeast's premier climbing gym brand.

A lifelong climber who used to skip elementary school to hit the rocks with his older brother, John discusses how he transformed his passion into a thriving business while maintaining an authentic, non-corporate culture with over 150 employees. He reveals the challenges of the early days, the strategic partnerships that fueled growth, and his vision for High Point's continued expansion.

Beyond business, John opens up about his competitive triathlon career, training alongside Olympians, and how he balances intense athletic pursuits with running a growing company. Whether you're an entrepreneur, climber, outdoor enthusiast, or simply curious about building a lifestyle business around your passion, this conversation offers valuable insights into turning what you love into what you do.

#RockClimbing #Entrepreneurship #OutdoorBusiness #Triathlon #ChattanoogaBusiness

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Whether it's running, biking, swimming, rock climbing
.
I love success.
I mean like the constant chaseof success and trying to find
perfection, and it's almostmaddening because you can never
find true perfection.
Born in Chattanooga, lived inTennessee, my whole life grew up
in Chattanooga, so that's myworst nightmare is to be

(00:21):
compared to any type ofcorporation.
I've been a climber since I canremember.
Since grade school.
I used to skip elementaryschool and go rock climb with my
older brother.
No no one knew what climbing was.
The bankers didn't know whatclimbing was, so I'd go into a
meeting and I'd explain whatrock climbing is.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Dude, that's cool, so I didn't know Xterra was still
around.
Yeah, do they even make thatvehicle anymore?

Speaker 1 (00:48):
They don't even make that vehicle anymore, right?
So Nissan named their SUV theXterra.
Yeah, and Xterra Triathlon hadcopyrighted that, and so they
were paying Xterra Triathlonroyalties.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
I didn't know they came first.
I thought Nissan was first.
No shit Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
So Xter extra triathlon was very, uh,
fortuitous in that regard and so, uh, it really helped them out,
so they were able to expand.
And then they, I think, grewand, uh, now they're under
different management and, um,they've consolidated the races
and now they're starting toexpand again, but it's really,
really popular in europe, okay,yeah I feel like for especially
cycling and shit, maybe alloutdoor adventure, sports, like

(01:28):
europe is more the epicenter.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
You know, we're here like in the states, we're big in
like football, like americanfootball, you know, and that
sort of stuff.
But europe, like hard endurofor motorcycles, huge in europe.
You know any bike, yeah,mountain biking, cycling, you
know like all that stuff's waybigger.
Um, when you get to america,it's like we want to be able to
sit in the stadium and drink ouralcohol, which I mean I love
doing that too.
But, um, so the puerto rico howlong race was that puerto rico?

Speaker 1 (01:52):
um, 1500 meter swim.
Um is a 20 mile bike a littleshort, usually a 40k bike, so um
24 mile bike usually okay andthen 10k run.
But but like 10k run is fourlaps on the beach, so it's like
soft sand, hard sand, so it'squite, it's a quite difficult
run.

(02:12):
What kind of shoe do you?

Speaker 2 (02:14):
wear just normal shoe trail shoes.
Okay, yeah, and I imaginebecause I run on the beach some
there's definitely like an art.
Can you get down on the edge ofthe water, because that's a
harder pack, it was like street.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
And then you want to be, get down on the edge of the
water, because that's a harderpack, it was like street.
And then you want to be righton the crest of the wave, like
where it rolls up, yeah, likeit's the best part.
And then you got to run likeback up onto the bank and then
do like a kind of hard sand outand back and then do that again.
So, holy shit.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
So you're doing 10K on that.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, 6.2 miles on the beach.
That sounds terrible.
Were your calves on like Ithink I was more just trying not
to pass out from like the heatand just high heart rate.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Oh, yeah, yeah everything is working a little
more.
How hot was it?
Was it in the 90s?
Yet?

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Mid-80s, but you know , it hasn't been.
It's not summer in Chattanoogayet.
Yeah, big change from here anddown there and especially for my
like competitors who are fromColorado, so they went straight
from like snow to the beach.
So it's really a good race forme because they're not used to
it at all right, right.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
I remember some of those races, early season
cycling, like either down in,like the Bahamas would have,
like a cycling tour, or SouthFlorida, yeah, and you get all
the dudes that have beentraining in South Florida or my
work or wherever and it was abit more, and then they're in
shape and I'm coming out likewinter with no top end at all,
just getting smoked.
You know, it's a terriblefeeling and you always tell the
guys they've been like they'restill pale.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
I mean you show up yeah, you know, the guys are all
tan as fuck you're like, oh,I'm about to get my ass kicked.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, so are the mountain bike portions.
Are they technical or they?
How are they?

Speaker 1 (03:43):
I would say for Puerto Rico, like I easily rode
everything first try.
There was one hill that rainedthe night before and I didn't
ride it during the race becausemy wheel slipped and I used my
dropper twice.
So for the most part it's apretty tame mountain bike course
.
I mean it's a lot of pedaling.

(04:03):
I mean it's a lot of pedaling.
I mean it's a triathlon, but um, I mean um, I was glad I didn't
wreck at the same time.
I mean you can go.
You can go pretty fast.
I mean you're averaging 15miles an hour or something.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Which on a mountain bike um average is is pretty, is
is decent.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
So yeah, so a single track, still track, still.
Are you on like?

Speaker 1 (04:24):
um road type stuff a little, both like like beach
roads, um some like hard packdirt, and actually there's more
single track than um ever forthis race.
So it was pretty nice, that waspretty nice yeah, something
about single track.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Just I always love that.
You know it's great wheneveryou put me on like there's.
Do you ever done that?
Mountain bike race, bump, bumpand grind.
I don't know if it's even stillaround.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
In Oak Mountain.
Yeah, I've heard of it.
I've ridden a lot of the samecourse for the.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
X-TRAC there, so you probably like down low it's
single track usually, and thenthere's Blood Rock, and this is
from the old days.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
This is.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
I don.
And then there's that long-assgravel grinding road all the way
to the top.
It's just fucking miserable andI hated that part dude, I would
be so demoralized.
I get on that road and then youget a little bit of redemption
down Blood Rock.
It was like actual kind oftechnical single track and fun,
but I enjoy suffering more onsingle track.
I don't know what it is, butI'd rather be there than out on
a big road.

(05:20):
Same.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
It makes suffering harder for me.
I don't get it.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
I do love the road climbs, but Singletrack's the
best yeah, well, typically theseguys have been trying to talk
me into openings on thesepodcasts and I've gone back and
forth, because sometimes I do anopening, introduce a guest and
then it kind of feels like I'mon a talk show and someone's
going to be yelling like yeah,welcome, jerry, jerry.
So I haven't really been doingintroductions you are not the
father.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Someone's going to be yelling like yeah, welcome.
And then someone will be likeJerry, jerry.
So I haven't really been doingintroductions.
You are not the father.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yes, you've got to do like a victory dance around the
room, but in all seriousness,you're doing all this stuff and
you've got High Point ClimbingGym and you've got this
delicious coffee, trail Town,which thanks for bringing us
this um for everyone that mightbe listening and watching.
Uh, john texted me this morning.

(06:12):
It was like hey, man, you wantto let me bring you guys some
coffee from trail town?
And I sent a photo back with,like me sitting at trail town
eating one of your delicioussandwiches with a coffee right
there.
I'm like, yeah, absolutely, I'malready here a step ahead of
you, but you got all this stuffgoing in your racing.
I thought today we just, I don'tknow, it's been like 10, 12
years since you started highpoint.

(06:33):
Yeah, 12 years now.
Yeah, I'd love to I don't knowkind of tell the story because
pretty wild, like when I met youand johnny, I guess through
cycling, right, and then I loveto hear like some early, like
even you and Johnny, that wholestory is super cool.
You know, like you guys reallydid something awesome at High
Point and I was thinking aboutwe kind of touched base again

(06:53):
last week, you know, or a coupleweeks ago, and I'm like I want
to talk about some of like theorigins of it to where it is now
, because it's grown so much andthings.
Like you guys built this firstgym here.
Like you did a lot of radical,really cool shit, like that
exterior wall, yeah, like thatthat thing.
You know so many otherbusinesses.
I see that people just kind ofwant to do the basics to get by.

(07:16):
You know, and I think so manyof the climbing gyms in the
world that are just like allright, here's the inside, but
then I think about investing allthat money on like the exterior
steel and that big deck and butreally made it.
You know, like I think thatreally helped you guys make it
so for sure.
I don't know like from thebeginning, when did you?
And like johnny, like was itthrough cycling and you guys

(07:36):
have always run together, right?

Speaker 1 (07:38):
yeah, well, um, how did I meet johnny?
I think I met him at triathlon,way, way, way back.
Um.
So, yeah, I think I thinksports have like been this thing
in my life, my whole life,where I've been able to meet
people and and, uh, keep intouch, and it's kind of been my
like uh, I don't know backbone,so to speak, throughout my life.

(08:00):
So, yeah, I met a great friendand, uh, you know, business
partner and investor like um way, way back in high school and
became good friends with hisfamily, started training with
him and his son.
His son was like on the usat,usa triathlon development
program.
So we're pretty activecompeting with like usa

(08:20):
triathlon and and then alsotrail running with the race team
with Rock Creek.
So, being in a cool small town,able to make those connections,
and being introduced to DawsonWheeler, who was in Rock Creek
at the time, and meeting youwith Matt Sims on a bike ride,

(08:41):
so I think sports has introducedme to business community, to
mentors and all sorts of stuffat a young age.
So I've been really fortunatewith that.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
It's cool you've gotten to stay in it too,
Because I feel like the outdoorcommunity doesn't always lend
itself to business, especiallywhen you think about climbing.
There's so many Me being aclimber.
I think I started climbing like11 or 12.
By the time I started ridingmountain bikes and trying to
kayak, although kayaking stillscares the shit out of me, Some
of it being upside down in thewater.

(09:16):
I've never done good in.
Climbing is usually kind of abunch of dirt bags.
I can say that because I wasone for a while Sleep in our car
, sleep on the ground, go climbthese places of shitty trails
and just super broke and all Icared about was climbing for a
long time or mountain biking.
But then you've got to do it asa business, but a successful

(09:38):
business.
These aren't like little gymsthat are in a back room
somewhere.
They're really impressivefacilities, you know.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
It's a big commitment , big gamble, you feel like
sometimes I hope the bank's notlistening.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
I mean all businesses , are you know?

Speaker 1 (09:57):
It's brick and mortar , it's not going anywhere
anytime soon.
Long-term leases, or you know,we own half our properties.
It's awesome, it's a bigcommitment.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, but I mean, what else can really compete
against you guys in that state,you know, like there's?
I think it's somethingcompletely different than like a
Gold's Gym or something likethat could could ever offer.
Um.
I remember in Chattanooga, wasit the YMCA?
Didn't they have like a littleclimbing, little climbing wall?
Maybe that was a while ago then, Probably back in high school
for me so 20-plus years ago, youknow, but like it was so rare

(10:33):
to see like a climbing wall thatwas more than 10, 12 feet, you
know, you guys, how many gyms doyou have now I've lost count.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, we're opening our eighth gym in Orlando here
at the end of April.
Okay, I feel like Orlando wouldbe an awesome spot for one, so
Johnny and I we looked betweenTampa, st Pete and Orlando for a
year looking for the rightplace to build a gym.
Johnny's son went to RollinsCollege there for a little bit.
So Johnny's been to Orlandoquite a bit.

(10:58):
He's worked with Advent Healthon their board, so that's kind
of the tie to Orlando and I'vedone some races down in Orlando
as well 70.3.
And um, yeah, it's a fun town.
Uh, it's like it's booming.
Yeah and um, we looked andlooked and looked and finally
found amazing, um, uh, partner,the Dr Phillips foundation,

(11:19):
which is the largest nonprofitin central Florida and it really
reminded us of our firstclimbing gym here in downtown
Chattanooga working with RiverCity Company.
It's, you know, anothernonprofit that's promoting
growth and development inChattanooga.
So that reminded us of ourfirst experience and how well it
worked and the connections made.

(11:41):
And so Dr Phillips has beenthat and and more, much, much
larger organization.
But yeah, they've been reallyincredible work with and and
then they basically took anorange juice packing district
that the dr Phillips, theoriginal, I guess the original

(12:07):
person that patented orangejuice, like how we drink it
today so you don't taste themetal.
And so this was the orangejuice packing area.
So they've redeveloped allthese warehouses.
There's a farm, there's a lake,there's a food hall, new Publix
, condos, apartmentsos,apartments, townhomes and now a

(12:27):
climbing gym damn you saidpublic, so I know it's a nice
area yeah, drop the publics.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, soft flex yeah, dude, that's awesome.
So I mean, I've been throughorlando a lot and I know there's
a lot of good flights in andout of orlando and it seems kind
of like a kind of a hub downthere and that how would you
call that?
Like central florida?
I guess it's a little south ofcentral, I don't know um, but
what's it like compared toChattanooga?
Population, I mean, it's quitea bit larger in Chattanooga

(12:54):
isn't it?

Speaker 1 (12:54):
oh yeah, much more larger, um.
Yeah, it reminds me a lot ofHuntsville in terms of like, um,
like economics and mediumincome and age.
So young, affluent town, reallyOkay.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
I do love St.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Pete.
I got to say St Pete's one ofmy favorite towns to go visit.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
But the real estate there has gotten super expensive
.
I don't know if it's that sameway on the commercial side, but
I keep looking for like I loveto have a little place, and by
little I mean like tiny littleplace.
Just try to keep a boat down inFlorida, and I love St Pete,
but, man, you can't findanything affordable there.
So I imagine Orlando isprobably a little more
affordable than St Pete.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
It is yeah, you don't get the ocean view, but still
an amazing place.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Probably safer, though, as far as like getting
your property destroyed fromstorms.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, cheaper build for sure.
Yeah, and we need, like like60-foot building for indoor
climbing because we want about52 feet inside so we can have a
speed competition wall which is15 meters 49 feet.
So we look for about a spacewhere we can at least do a roof
elevation to 52 feet.
So we have that in Orlando.

(13:59):
So we leased a long-term leaseon a 49,000-square-foot
warehouse for our climbing gymthere.
It's going to be the likelargest in the southeast man and
High Point's biggest for sure.
Wow, dude that's huge.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, I mean the largest in the whole country.
Is it still the one in Atlanta?
Is that still like, or is iteven still around?
What was that place called?

Speaker 1 (14:19):
It will be bigger than Stone stone summit, which
is now um uh central rock.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Okay yeah, man, that's awesome.
I mean where else they have togo climb down there.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
You know like they're pretty much getting on a flight
to chattanooga right, that'sprobably the closest, or north
carolina maybe yeah, a lot ofweekend warriors come coming
north, for sure, um, but yeah,there's, there's a, there's a
lot of gyms there in florida now.
Actually, uh, the floridaclimbing community is growing
and growing and we're going tobe able to offer like we call a
full scale gym where you haverope climbing.

(14:50):
We also always put a kid's areain our facilities, so we, you
know, compartmentalize, so youknow you can have the adult
space where it's kind of cool,calm and collective, you hope at
least, and you have, you know,like a kid's area where you can,
you know, scream and be a kidand you're not bothering anybody
.
And we also have a largebouldering area there too.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
I know we still got screamers bouldering though
right, oh for sure, and ropeclimbing.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, and rope climbing full-on screamers.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
So I'm so curious, like whenever you were working
with Johnny, did you pitch thisidea to Johnny back in the
business?
It?

Speaker 1 (15:26):
depends on who you ask.
I switched majors.
I was pre-dent in college, atUTC.
I switched to entrepreneurship.
I've kind of been, I think, anentrepreneur my whole life.
I just didn't realize it.
Just mowing the grass, I'd mowmy yard and then the neighbors
would be like, hey, we'll payyou to mow ours, like my
mother's yard, and be like, sure, I'll mow your yard, the next
yard, the next yard.

(15:46):
I need to make some money so Ican go to the climbing gym.
That was my whole idea.
So I think, just from a kidearly on, I've just been a
serial entrepreneur and metJohnny John O'Brien, my business
partner, and worked for him,mowed his yard, you know, and,
yeah, trained with him and hisfamily and had a great time and

(16:10):
ended up, you know, going intobusiness with him and yeah, now
he's like more of an investorrole and, you know, heading up
development for new facilities.
But yeah, great relationship, avery unique relationship,
introduced him to rock climbingbecause he was into triathlons.

(16:31):
Oh that's right, yeah.
He was looking for, you know,like something like an
alternative fitness to do in theoff season, so took him to,
which was Urban Rocks at thetime.
Oh, that's right, Amarco Highwayyeah, which we ended up
purchasing, and that was oursecond facility rebranded at our
High Point Riverside location.

(16:53):
That's right.
And yeah, it's kind of beenhitting the ground running ever
since.
You know, we built the firstgym downtown, had an incredible
opportunity, great location, andit was probably our most
complicated build because we hadto dig a pit inside underneath

(17:14):
the parking garage.
Then also we have this outdoorwall.
That's pretty unique.
So back in 2013, it wasprobably one of the top 10
largest climbing gyms in theworld.
Twelve years later, it'sbasically a middle-sized
climbing gym.
Wow, there's been that muchdevelopment worldwide,
absolutely yeah, but yeah, it'sstill one of our like um best

(17:37):
facilities.
It's um, um, you know, umcontinue to keep growing, but um
, I still, I still love where wecame from yeah, so I remember
we're trying to like part of theriver city thing.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
I mean that outside wall alone.
That was damn near close to amillion dollars for that build,
wasn't it?

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, you know we're really fortunate.
We actually received two grantsto help make that happen.
Ben Wood and LenhurstFoundation kicked in to help us
with that.
You know we're trying to reusethis old movie theater that
nobody could really do anythingwith, and River City Company
believed in us to beautifydowntown with this outdoor

(18:18):
climbing wall and reuse thespace.
So we actually got some greatrecognition for reusing the old
Bijou Theater.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
It sounds like it's kind of a strategy now, because
it seems like it's working thesame way in Orlando, which is
it's a cool business idea,because you kind of look to come
in and help a city out, ofcourse, but then you're getting
help in return to even developit, which I imagine you've got
to offset some of this capitalexpenditure, because I mean
Orlando's 49,000 square feet,that's a big build out.
Yeah, that's a great idea,though, you know, because if you

(18:49):
were to try to build it and doit all on your own, it would be
what $10 million plus, probablypretty easily it's a lot of big
numbers.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
It's kind of like Monopoly money.
But yeah, orlando is anotherbig reuse project.
We're taking this old loadingdock and converting it to a
climbing gym, doing a12,000-foot roof elevation.
So yeah, it's a big project.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Man, that's awesome.
Whenever you were pitching thisidea originally 12 years ago,
did you ever think it would turninto this?

Speaker 1 (19:19):
No, no one knew what climbing was.
The bankers didn't know whatclimbing was, so I'd go into a
meeting and I'd explain whatrock climbing is how would you
explain that?

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Do you have like videos or photos?
So what's a?

Speaker 1 (19:29):
rope and what's bouldering and what's an auto
belay and how are you going todo this and that?
And you know they just kind oflook at you and you're like, oh
okay.
And then you know, to get aninvestor to come in and put down
a lot of capital in order toget a loan, the requirements are
really stringent.
So now that's backed off a lot.
They've seen a successfulbusiness model.
We have a great brand.
You know climbing's got a lotof national international

(19:52):
attention, being Olympics nowtwice.
So things are much easier.
So now when I go into like abank meeting to ask for a loan,
they know what rock climbing is.
They've seen it on ESPN.
Maybe even one of their kids ison a team.
So it's much easier than it was.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, that had to have been hard to build like a
pro forma back then for thefirst one.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, for sure I was.
I was for sure guessing at thepro forma.
Now I'm much better at it yeah,it's got to be easier.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
I mean all that plus the brand and you've got all
these users in your yeah, orcustomers in your database now,
and that speaks for itself.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
You know it's got to be getting much easier yeah, I
mean it's it's a brick andmortar business.
Um, there's a lot of work thatgoes into it.
There's no like I mean, yeah, Ilove design the facility with
our chief operating officer andjohnny and making sure the flow
through the facility works.
I mean that's something I thinkwe're really good at, having
the experience of building eightgyms and and then um, sean, our

(20:47):
chief operating officer, comingfrom another company, having
built a bunch of gyms as well,so we have a lot of experience
in that regard.
And um, yeah, when we build agym, we really are like critical
of everything in it and andthat's really fun to me,
designing like the colors, theflow of traffic, what we're
doing.
I really enjoy that.
But more than just likestarting up a business, the real

(21:10):
reward, like personal reward tome, like not financial, is just
to see that just come to likesuccess.
And I apply like beingcompetitive in sports, whether
it's running, you know, biking,swimming, rock climbing, I just
love success.
I mean like the constant chaseof success and trying to find

(21:31):
perfection, and it's almostmaddening, cause you can never
find true perfection, but youknow, chasing it you'll get
excellence, like Vince Lombardisays, like one of my favorite
quotes.
So, um as long as you don't gettoo caught up in it, it's, uh,
it's very rewarding.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, it definitely goes hand in hand with the uh,
all the adventure sports and thecompetitive racing.
You know that's.
I know exactly what you mean.
Like you just want to see thatyou're making things better,
whether it's yourself you knowyour race results, your the gyms
you're working on or you knowkind of kind of the same.
You know, whether it's on abike or on your feet or in an

(22:08):
office somewhere, you know.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, it's like I took a wrong turn on Sunday in
an off-road triathlon, but I wasfreaking out and I probably
wasted three or four or evenfive minutes trying to find the
path again on the bike and Iprobably would have had the
fastest bike if I hadn't takenthe wrong turn and was probably
a little higher on the podium ifI wouldn't have done that that.
But you, you just, uh.

(22:30):
I just told myself like youhave to keep racing hard, like
like someone else is gonna messup too, but um, yeah, keep
trying hard and um, you'll,you'll, you're still gonna have
a good result yeah, kind ofnever give up mentality yeah,
like there's always a mountainbike racing, especially there's
a long time and even now in dirtbike racing.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Me personally, if I start having, if I have one race
I drop out of yeah it's thisterrible, terrible, uh habit
it's hard to break.
Like dropping out of dnfingbecomes like this thing, like
once you do it, once it's likeit allows me at least for me
personally, but I know it's forother people too, because I
remember I had coaches back inthe day and they'd be like don't
ever drop out of one race,because then it becomes this

(23:10):
easier and easier to do.
Like if you give give up onceit's so much easier to be like
you know what, I'll just quitthis one too.
You know I had a bad start.
Or you know what it's too muddy.
Or you know I didn't restenough this week.
I feel like shit, I'm justgoing to drop out.
And they're totally right.
Like as soon as I start DNFingraces, it's just they start
racking up.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
I tried harder the rest of the day because I was so
pissed at myself, yeah.
So I think I like hammeredharder up the climbs after that
and I think I ran harder than Iwould have trying to stay ahead
of my friend who did catch meright.
Then I mean, that's like themost memorable moments for me
still is like racing againstyour friend.

(23:49):
Whatever happens happens, butI'd rather it be a close race
than winning by like a mile orjust boring, right.
This race was definitelymemorable in many regards, but I
definitely will go back andhopefully stay true to the
course.
But yeah, it's a good lifelesson, I think.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
How many employees do you havenow?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Yeah, a little over 150 company-wide.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Holy shit, that's a lot of people yeah man.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
It's definitely grown and grown, and grown.
I can still remember ouroriginal team.
I think that's one of my strongsuits is company culture and
team.
I love growing the business,but I don't want it to grow too
big where I am disconnected fromthe team.
It's really important for me tohave that connection.

(24:37):
I want to know everyone's name.
I want to be at the front deskwith them, even if it's just an
hour a week, but just to havethat touch point.
If I can spend an hour at thefront desk at every gym, like
once a month, even the things Ican pick up on are operations
what's bothering our customers,what's bothering our employees,
what we're doing well at I canmake quick changes.

(25:00):
So that's kind of the beauty ofhaving a small management team.
I don't have a board I have tolisten to.
I just have one investor so wecan pivot, we can let the
company evolve, which is great.
I think I tell our folks thisall the time like, innovation
leads our company, even if it'slike you know, wow, we are like
half our traffic's kids at ourdowntown gym.

(25:22):
Well, why aren't we selling kidst-shirts?
Like, 12 years later, we'refinally selling like, like kids
graphics, not just small sizes,but like kids graphics, right.
And so you, uh, just thingslike that, letting the, letting
the um culture, letting newideas come up, like being on the
front line with your employees,supporting them and them, them

(25:42):
seeing like their voices areactually making a difference.
And uh, here's the owner,here's the president of the
company, like you know, hand outrental shoes.
Or or, like you know, thecoffee shop opens and our chief
operating officer is likecleaning the toilet.
Or you know, it's like you know, johnny's come to the gym and
opening at Huntsville and he'scleaning the toilet.
I mean for employees to seethat and know like hey, this

(26:04):
company is like genuine, at likethat goes a long way.
And then then your employeesfeel invested and part of the
team and then they're going tolike work hard for you.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, it makes sense, you know, because it doesn't
just go straight to a corporatefeel which probably so many
climbers despise, you know?
Yeah, that's my worst nightmare, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Right, we're not.
We're like, locally owned andoperated.
We like we're born inChattanooga.
I've lived in Tennessee, mywhole life, grew up in Ch, so
that's my worst nightmare is tobe compared to any type of
corporation.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
And it probably wound up upsetting a lot of your core
demographic too.
You know Like that sounds wise.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
I mean we're at this point, we're a large company and
I finally like settled withthat, Always feel like we're a
small company, but I guess we'rea large company now with 150
employees and like we have a zipline and a coffee shop now too.
So like coming on 10 operations,wow.
So I guess we're a largecompany now, but uh, I really

(26:59):
enjoy it.
I mean, I like I went into thezip line last weekend, did the
zip line and it was great.
It's just, it's great to hangout with your employees like on
the job, um, and then, you know,work with your gms and I just I
really love that process.
The more I can get out of theoffice like, the more of an
impact I think I can have.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
And.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
I don't like micromanaging anybody.
I want to trust like 100% allof my GMs, for better or for
worse, because, like you know,at this point we're like large
enough where I can't be in allthe locations at one time.
You know three states, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
How often do you visit them?
Like every quarter, you think.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, I mean once a month was the goal, but it's a
lot Right Locations, you know ifyou take a vacation or
something or you know you'rebuilding a gym, then you
definitely get behind reallyquick.
So I'm definitely in all theChattanooga locations once a
month because I live here, andthen I'm at most of the gyms
either once a quarter or once amonth still Okay, and so you've

(28:02):
got them in Tennessee, alabama,florida.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, Georgia going to be on the list sometime.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
We looked at Georgia, a couple cities and I think
there's always a possibility,but um central florida, like
really um attract us for manyreasons.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
So I think we, I think we'll, I'd love to build a
regional network there okay,yeah, now are you looking for
like is there a certaindemographic, like you want to
replicate chattanooga elsewhere,or are you looking for a little
bit different model thanchattanooga moving forward?

Speaker 1 (28:34):
yeah, um, I mean, I, I love chattanooga.
It's a great mid-sized city.
Um, it's got everything youknow amazing river town, got the
mountains, they've got water.
Uh, you can do pretty muchevery sport year round yeah and
uh, but um, I love the southeast.
I think we'll stay in theSoutheast for the foreseeable
future.

(28:54):
Yeah, our goal is to benationally recognized climate
company, which I think we are inthe climate industry and I
think we'll.
We love to keep expanding, butit's there's something to be
said about having like ageographical regional network
that you can be a part of.

(29:14):
Like I, I never want my worstnightmare is to be part of
something where I show up andlike no one knows who you are
and it's like undercover bossmentality where you're just like
right doing a bad job yeah,right, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
What do you do?
You think there's a ceiling onthis?
I mean what?

Speaker 1 (29:30):
I don't know, um, I hope not, but yeah for sure, I
think, responsibility's sake,there is a ceiling on how big
you can get and not be likeabsentee, which would be my
worst nightmare.
But I'm not sure what it is.
I haven't found it yet.
Gotcha, I don't want to find itbut at the same time I think

(29:50):
we're going to keep growing.
So I think there's balancethere.
I'm not sure what the futureholds in that.
In that regard.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
Would you want to keep hold it forever or
eventually sell it, or?

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Um, I love it.
I don't see my, you know, Idon't see myself doing um
anything else.
I really love it.
Um, I've, I've been a climbersince I can remember.
Um, since grade school.
I used to skip elementaryschool and go rock climbing with
my older brother, and I stillrock climb this day.

(30:20):
I love it so much so I couldn'timagine doing anything else.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
You got any projects right now?
Climbing All the time?
Yeah, what do you got?
Rope or boulder?

Speaker 1 (30:30):
For sure, everything.
I really love sport climbing.
Right now I just go throughphases of bouldering, sport
climbing, track climbing, um.
But that's the reason Iactually got into running is
because I wanted to get analpine uh climbing.
But here in the southeast, uh,if you don't, I don't think if
you grow up you like snowtraveling and ice climbing, then
you're really like, uh, kind ofan underdog.

(30:52):
So I'm stuck to rock climbingand never gotten really alpine
climbing.
But now I'm a great runner anda rock climber, so I'm a great
jogger, jogger.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, uh, you know it's funny, I went through a
wannabe alpine phase as well andit was mainly like after high
school, like high school intocollege, and I really wanted to
um, like for whatever reason,probably just because of
publicity at the time but k2 inmount everest were always more
k2 because it's like one of themost technical, one, of the more
technical ones.
I mean, there are moretechnical ones than that, but

(31:23):
it'll also just kill you reallyquick.
And then I started going tolike some of these cold weather
areas and you know,experimenting with a little more
, you know, and testing it out,and I'm like I really don't like
the cold.
Yeah, I mean I'm like insaneskinny, like cold day is the
worst thing ever yeah, and mostof it like you're just kind of
hiking on a steep part, you know, and like the part that I would
love would be like thebeautiful exposure, doing
something like technical, youknow, but there's just not

(31:47):
really a lot of that in alpine,you know.
But I don't know, maybe one daybut now the problem knees are
so fucked, like trying to carrygear and hiking like that I'd
just take one twist and be outof place again, you know.
Next thing, you know I'd belike green boots on Everest.
You know I'd be walking pastSam, be like hit Sam, take a
right, you know, and keep going.
You're almost there.
Just become a landmark for Amonument.

(32:08):
Yeah, for navigation.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
No, I think I have some like big wall goals, though
I'd love to do the nose in aday.
I don't want to camp out, Idon't want to haul bag.
Yeah, Stay lightweight and runup it.
That would be really fun.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
I don't think I ever told you this story but I went
out to do the nose.
Did I ever tell you that?
I think I heard about it.
It was embarrassing.
Yeah was.
It was a shit show, to say theleast, like almost.
Yeah, it was terrible.
We.
I didn't want to like rehearseit, to like read too much about
it, because my favorite is goingout like I'm not particularly a
strong climber but I like goingout and finding some like fun

(32:45):
trad and to me fun track couldbe anywhere from like hell.
There's been fun five, six tradroutes I've done.
They're real fun, like northcarolina, you know, and some big
wall and a lot of that stuff.
I just free solo because it waseasy enough and it'd be fun,
but it's kind of trad moves.
But for the nose I'm likethere's gonna be technical parts
.
I did print out the topo thing,you know, and had the all the
pitches on there.
I didn't really want to readall the secrets to it.

(33:07):
I want to figure it out.
I also haven't done a ton oftechnical aid climbing and we
skipped the part where it sayseveryone now does not haul their
fucking pig, the haul bag onthe first four pitches.
They wait to.
Um, what's that ledge called?
Um, I said it, uh, sickle ledge, okay.
And they drop line down becauseit's more vertical and they

(33:30):
haul their bag up there becausethe first two or three pitches
are the most technical aid linesand the whole thing.
And so there we are, haulingour bag up, we camped at the
bottom of it, we're hauling ourbag up this thing and it's just
like dragging, you know, becauseit's all low angle, like slab
stuff.
So much more work.
But it's polished as hell anddude.
I remember like clipping in my,my ladders into like zero aid
wires that are rusted, that arestuck there, you know, and just

(33:52):
being like I can't believe I'mabout to stand on this of all
this gear and just pulling itdown to my fucking foot and
standing up.
And I had my buddy, robert,with me and uh, robert's a good
climber but he'd never reallybeen on anything as technical me
.
Hell, I hadn't either.
And we're trying differentstone too, different stone,
polished, everything's new.
But we get to the, the firsthanging belay, get the bag up

(34:12):
there.
Robert comes up cleaning gearand I'll make this story, this
story, short, because it'spretty much over anyways, we
wind up having people passingrobert, pulling on our gear,
passing him.
They don't even speak english.
We wind up having people Ithink we're speaking like german
more than speaking french wehad four, two of the crews, four
people, so two of the people oftwo hanging on our bolts with

(34:34):
our haul bag.
It was like 135 pounds becausewe were planning on spending
three days up there and it wasI'm like I'm getting the fuck
out of here.
And then on the way down, wedidn't tie.
I lower Robert down, lower thebag down, I go, rappel off and
I'm trying to get away from allthese people that are just
fucking yarding.
All over here.
Didn't yard and all over heredidn't tie knots into the rope.

(34:55):
I almost wrap off into my ropeand it would me would have been
at that point because you kindof go up, traverse over to get
the start of it and I would havefallen past.
It would have been 200 andsomething feet just down to the
death.
You know, like terrible, robert,the only reason I didn't wrap
off of it and everyone knows todo that.
You know you tie a ropetogether, you tie knots in it,
but I just threw it to get outof there and I was on atc and
I'm like hauling down you know,hauling ass down it, and robert

(35:16):
goes.
Hey, you wrote.
I'm like I know one side gotcaught up and it was like a
little unequal and I went toflick it off a ledge and when
gave robert just enough time,look up, said no, your other
side.
I looked to my left and I hadlike that much left, oh, man,
that's a nightmare makes myhands sweat thinking about it,
dude, it'd been like the dumbestdeath ever.
Like everyone made fun of mebeing like man sam's a dumb.

(35:36):
I would have made fun of me.
I would have been wherever Iwas in afterlife being like dumb
ass stupid good learningexperience.
So we did not go back.
We left.
We went to tuolumne meadows andwe climbed some scary run out
five, nine trad that scared theshit out of me.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
I'm gonna going to ask what was more scary.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Tuolumne was a full rope run out and we had a 70
meter rope.
I'd never done that before onslab.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
But the nose is so polished and there's so many
people.
Yeah, I would love to go backand climb it, but, man, you only
got like two month window.
You know maybe three months.
Yeah, you know, maybe threemonths.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Anyway, I'm going to bring a stick clip and I'm going
to stick clip past all that.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
If I'm going to, aid climb.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
I'm going to make it easy, yeah dude, hell yes, and
I'm going to go with someonewho's done it a bunch of times
so I can, like you know, up anddown in a day easy.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, I think it would be cool.
And I mean you climb, asopposed to everyone's having to
aid so much of it.
It is crazy how polished it is,man Like, even in the cracks,
it's like good hands.
Yeah, dude, it's just like twogranite countertops put together
.
It feels like you know it'spretty wild.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, I'm not bringing a haul back up.
No poop bucket either.
Oh right, I'm not going tohappen.
Maybe an off-width.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Right, yeah, so where are you climbing at outside?
Now?
You got a certain spot youalways go to, or just change it.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Man.
Well, like shout out to theSoutheastern Climbers Coalition.
I was, like, served as avolunteer treasurer for them, as
well as on their board, for anumber of years.
But yeah, they've been able toacquire many areas in Sequatchie
Valley to this point.
So I love sport climbing andSequatchie Valley is one of my
favorite places to go.
They have, like Denny Cove,Woodcock Cove, some great new
areas.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
I haven't heard of you said Woodcock Cove.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven'theard of that.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hadn't heard of that.
Yeah, it's just south of Dunlap.
Okay yeah, beautiful area.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Is that close to Foster's and that same gorge
there where Denny and Foster'sis?

Speaker 1 (37:38):
It's probably north, maybe a half hour north Okay
gotcha.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
I drive past, ride the motorcycle and always see
Castle Rock over there.
You still go up there.
That place looks.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
I haven't been up years, but I've definitely spent
my fair share of time up there.
Love it, predator wallcopperhead.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
So some of the best like tall 12d, 13a's around man,
the photography, especiallypredator wall, you know it's
just having that background, sopretty up there.
Um, I went back.
I've not climbed like almostsix, seven years and wasn't
really climbing a lot theneither, but got into motorcycles
, you know.
And this last week matt simsgot back in town from belize.
You know.
He's down there living thefishing life and he and natalie

(38:16):
are turned fishermen.
But now he's back climbing, uh,of course, and I moved back up
on lookout.
So I've been going back down tob rocks, you know, and first
time climbing at b rocks waslast week and I got my ass
spanked, like on the warm-up,you know, and the warm b rocks I
mean it's nothing for you guys,especially climbing regularly,
but I used to do laps on it.
I think I hung dog it probablyno less than 15 times, the first

(38:41):
time up and then the secondtime I did all the way through
and the third time I did, but itwas brutal all three times.
I'm going to try to go backthis way.
Actually, I almost bought arope from you this morning.
I, actually I almost bought arope from you this morning.
I was in the coffee shop.
I'm like I've got to replace myrope.
It's 10 years old now.
I've been laying down in thebasement.
Nothing like a new rope.
Yeah, dry-rided ones alwaysscare the shit out of me anyways
, yeah don't do that.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Tie a knot in your rope and don't use the old one.
God, here's the north americanchampionship, and it's also a
world cup event with exterra, soyou'll have the europeans come

(39:22):
over.
It's a really competitive eventand, um, it's, like you know,
my home course, basically justtwo hours south of here.
So nice, I think that's inabout six weeks, so I'll be
looking forward to that hellyeah.
And so you said you're racingfor the us and that um, so uh,
with the wto um cross, um, whichis like a european equivalent

(39:42):
of like xterra, um, you race foryour country and that so you
wear like team usa jersey, butfor xterra, um, there's not like
a country affiliationnecessarily for like your
uniform, but um it's, you'restill like it's all a pro
category.
So gotcha but I've had folks say, like you know, I could first
qualify to race professionally.

(40:03):
They're like, why are you doingthat?
I'm like I just want to.
I want to be competitive atwhatever level I can be at.
If it's like I'm like humblycompetitive as an amateur or
elite professional, whatever itis, but I just I love
competition, whether it's inbusiness or in sports.
It's like it makes you better.

(40:23):
Yeah, so it's like I didn't growup swimming so I've had to like
really focus on it in order tolike hang on to the end of the
pro field on the swim so I canat least like try to catch them
on the bike.
So just just being like sayingtaking that like step into
saying, yeah, I want to race atthe next level and it's actually

(40:44):
made me a lot better becauseI've had to focus on my
weaknesses in order to likecompete with them.
So, um, it's, yeah, it's maybemuch better and, just like you
know, being part of a um like aelite group, it just changes
your mindset on a lot of things.
How do they think and how dothey arrange their lives, their

(41:04):
work schedule around, theirtraining, so just to see anybody
at an elite level of whateverthey're doing, whether it's
business or it's sport, whathave you just to be a part of?
That just changes your wholelife.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
What is your schedule like?
Because that's got to be adecent amount of volume, because
these races are what?
About three hours long?

Speaker 1 (41:25):
two to three, yeah yeah, I mean, you know I love
training, I love working.
I definitely like throw myselfat both of those.
I can get in 20 or 30 hours oftraining, peak during my season
for triathlon Damn that's prettyimpressive Each week 20, 30
hours a week and still working40 to 50 or even 60 hours a week

(41:45):
.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
So you're doing morning workouts or twice a day
6 am swim, 6 pm run or bike.
Damn, how long are your swims?

Speaker 1 (41:54):
Swim of the Masters.
So that's about an hour and 15.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
And that's in the pool typically.
Yeah, yeah, dude, that soundsterrible.
It's not that bad.
I've never been able to.
I've tried pool swimming and Isuck at swimming too.
That's always been the worstthing and I pretty much am only
even like decent and I wouldn'teven use decent.
But basically, don't drown witha wetsuit on.
But as decent and I'm not, Iwouldn't use decent.

(42:18):
But basically don't drown andlet with a wetsuit on, but as
soon as you take the wetsuit off, you know like I'm trash at
swimming it's actually greattraining for climbing as well,
but you just it kills your skin.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Obviously you lose your, you lose your calluses,
but short of that, it's actuallypretty good training for for uh
, I could see it, breath controland all that, yeah, yeah you
can get some pretty explosivepower with like shoulder
strength and stuff as well.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, that makes sense.
How far are you swimming in anhour and 15?
That's got to be probably what.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Like 4,000 yards, something like that.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Damn, that's a lot of kick turns.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Yeah, it is.
Do you guys wear music.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Is that a thing in the pool?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they'vegot music going.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, yeah and so you got like music in no no, just
playing on like the pool deck.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
Oh, you can hear it though in your swim.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I usually like interval workouts
and stuff.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Oh, okay, yeah, but you're like pretty much nonstop
115, or are you like doingintervals and stopping and then?

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah, intervals and stopping and stuff like that,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
So I did like two years swimming, but it was open
water.
My buddy, I'd never really swam, like my swimming was like
going to the pool and you know,doggy paddle, breaststroke,
whatever, just don't drown.
You know my buddy, mitch, thatused to do some trail running
with and mountain biking withand he's like come out and swim
with us, it's great.
But he like grew up actualswimming.
You know he took swim lessons,learned how to swim, yeah, swim

(43:37):
lessons, learn how to swim, yeah.
And so one day I'm still takingswim lessons.
I need to go take swim lessonsCause I still don't know really
what the hell to do.
But the first swim was we wentup to the boathouse and jumped
in one morning at 5 30 AM andswam down river, which is down
river, you know, but I think theriver was lower after, like I
got out because of the amount ofriver water that I drank, like
I had no idea what and he justtook off and left me, you know,

(43:58):
and there's, you know.
I guess it was early, so there'sno boats, but felt like I was
going to get run over and didn'tknow how to swim, and I did
that three days a week for abouttwo years, you know, and took
the winters off.
It helped a lot, though, youknow, and yeah, I've done a Camp
for 10 days.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
Now what's it like?
Four years in a row, now inJanuary?
So swim like twice a day, twohours in the morning, two hours
in the evening, so four hours aday of just swimming.
Do that for 10 days.
You will rapidly change yourswim, dude, I bet.
And you're swimming in a poolnext to Olympians.
So it's the most humbling thingon earth.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Oh, I bet.
Yeah, one thing I noticed waslike even with my wetsuit on and
I was wearing like a thintriathlon, you know, long-sleeve
wetsuit, which definitely letsyou glide more, you know, and
lets me get away with myterrible form and imperfections
and inefficiencies I would havereal swimmers like yourself and
other people come out with likejust no wetsuit, you know,

(44:52):
speedo or whatever and just dropmy ass.
Like no wetsuit, you know,speedo or whatever, and just
drop my ass, like I was sittingstill, you know, and they're
just cruising.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yes, it's all technique.
It's pretty amazing.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
It is to watch these other guys just swim away.
You know, jason Howard, youever come across him.
I don't know if he swam as muchanymore.
He used to wake surf with them.
I actually know one of mybuddies who I wake surf with but
he was big into swimming.
One of my buddies I wake surfwith but he was big into
swimming.
He went down and did that thingwhere he swam around Key West
or something like that and did abunch of those big open water
things and he came out and swama few times with me and it was
like I saw him at the dock andby the time I took my third

(45:26):
breath he was already atCoolidge Park.
I'm like, oh fuck, it's veryhumbling.
Out of curiosity, what kind ofmountain bike are you riding?
Like full suspension, hard take.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, trek Super Caliber.
It's like under 20 pounds, butyou know, front and back
suspension, still with a dropper, it's like the perfect race
bike for Xterra.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Damn under 20 pounds.
Yeah, that's insane.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Single up front, singlechainring, okay, 12 speed or
something in the back, exactly.
All this shit's changed so much.
I've been so far out of it.
Yep, I'm starting to get backinto it Full carbon bike.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, damn, it's fun.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yeti just came out with their 40th anniversary ASR.
I've always liked Yeti.
It was like my first shit.
It looks awesome.
I'd love one, but I could gobuy a new race motorcycle for
that, you know.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I just got the new Trek Super
Caliber and it's really niceHell yeah, yeah.
They're up there in price, butit's definitely worth it.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Yeah Well, I'd say we have to get out and ride
sometime.
But you'd be like Sam, you suckdude, you're terrible.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
No, that's the thing about the more I've like
progressed in triathlon.
Like easy days are extremelyimportant.
Like heart rate under 120.
It's interesting If you're onStrava it's like this sort of
addictive program on socialmedia where you can see everyone
else's workouts People willpost like like easy run, and

(46:57):
they're really obsessed withtheir averages and if you look
at their heart rate you knowit's not an easy run.
It's like, ah, they don't knowwhat they're doing, right,
because I'm like if you, ifyou're doing an easy run, you
got to be under 120.
So like to go out and trainwith like a red bull athlete,
they will be running.
They now they're going to runlike a 235 marathon in an
Ironman to win like theAustralian Ironman holy shit,

(47:20):
daniel Bakkegaard wouldn't trainwith him.
Like two years in a row he willgo out and run nine minute
miles how many of them?
like 30 45 minutes an hour, adiamond of miles, just really
easy conversational pace and forhim that is like insanely easy,
since he's running, like youknow, sub six minute miles, an
Ironman.
So for like for me is likeinsanely easy, since he's
running, like you know, sub sixminute miles and Ironman.
So for like for me to do aneasy day, I need to be like

(47:42):
walking pace like nine, 30, 10minute miles at least.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Um so how often is he doing that?

Speaker 1 (47:51):
I would say, um, he didn't tell me his, uh, his
training schedule, but, um, buthe did that at least a couple
times during the week.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Wow, yeah, that's interesting yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
So even on the bike doing the same thing, even
swimming.
So it's not like.
It's like oh, you're like anelite athlete, everything you're
doing is fast and hard.
It's like no, no, no.
It's like maybe one day a weekI have like a really hard
workout, but the rest it is allcrafted specifically so I can
peak for a race, right.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, how far out do you start for peaking, like
three months, four months?

Speaker 1 (48:23):
So I'm working with a coach, josiah Middall out of
Vail.
He's won XTERRA WorldChampionship a very accomplished
athlete, but I've got aneight-week block leading up to
my next race.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
So it does make it harder to be like social.
Some of my local buddies, andand Jenny, were like hey, come
ride with us and I'm like I'dlove to, but if we're going to
ride, I got to do this workoutRight and it's.
You know, it's like um, I I'mfinding myself being more and
more disciplined, um, in life,like the older I've gotten I'm
35.
So even with like with business, um find myself being more

(48:56):
disciplined with everything I do, really protecting my time, um,
which is, which is difficult,um, but yeah, same with um, with
triathlons and and um,everything I do.
I'm trying to be more and moredisciplined.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Do you ever find that like the discipline both
business or or training does itever burn you out?
Like there are times whereyou're like're like, fuck this,
I just want to have like a bunchof cheat days or cheat months
you know like, do you?
Ever get burned out from it andmake it.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Make you do worse for a short time so I think, have
like a I don't know triathlete,you're like obsessed with um,
you know three different sportsand it's like you're mediocre
all three but you put themtogether, you're like decent.
But, um, I would say, havinglike rock climbing is my like
lifelong passion.

(49:41):
Um, ever, ever, I found myselfgetting like tired of like
semi-swim biking, running.
I always go back to rockclimbing.
Um, I've I've never foundmyself like burnt out of rock
climbing.
So in the off season inchattanooga it's colder in
chattanooga, like you know,october through february, which
is the best time to rock climb.
So I usually take a break fromlike racing professional

(50:01):
triathlon and start rockclimbing a lot more.
So I've, you know, cut mytraining in half or more, yeah,
or even maybe go a month withoutrunning or something and just
and just really enjoy rockclimbing and call my old friends
back up and say, hey, let's,let's get out and go rock
climbing.
So, having something I can sortof disconnect from like my
regular routine and pick upagain, I find fulfillment in

(50:24):
that and it clears my head andI'm able to start the season
again for triathlon with arenewed attitude.
Yeah, but for business, that'sdifferent.
Right, you can't, I think,opening a coffee shop up after
doing like seven gyms and thenhaving the opportunity to open

(50:44):
like Trail Town Coffee up nextto our downtown gym, our members
said it's like the one thing wedidn't know we needed.
So we did like a pass-throughdoor to go to the gym from the
coffee shop, which the twooperators beforehand never did,
and we've been really inclusivewith our economy community and
like the business community fordowntown.
Yeah, but you know, our amazingGM was like you know, asking me

(51:10):
questions.
You know, what should we do foremployee-like uniforms?
And I was like what would thecoolest coffee shop in
Chattanooga do?
I want to do that.
She was like what would thecoolest coffee shop in
chattanooga do?
I want to do that.
She was like, well, we, wewould, let's, let's, let's, wear
the t-shirts we're selling.
All the staff love the t-shirts.
I was like great yeah and thenthey're like we love the gym
shirts, let's wear the climbinggym shirts.
I'm like no problem yeah so Ithink we've had like, uh, the

(51:31):
ability to, to not get stressedover um numbers, so to speak,
and and just be like let's dowhat everybody would enjoy.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, I think there's something to that.
You can keep it fun, you canstill have discipline and still
have regimen and that sort ofthing, but then you got to have
a way to have fun somehow so itdoesn't just lose its luster and
its excitement.
Definitely not a great job withthe coffee shops I was talking
earlier, like the sandwiches andall that stuff you got, and it

(52:02):
seems like a perfect fit.
All the little businessesaround there are flooding in
there, like the logisticscompanies I mean, especially the
sales team, caffeinated,probably, adderall'd out
everything else.
You know you've got to sell alot of shit, so your shop's
always flooded with those people.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
It's a great fit.
Yeah, we're looking forward tothe hotels opening up down there
.
Oh yeah, and um, I think Ithink you're gonna see broad
street have like a new era.
Um, you know, got got some newbusinesses coming in and, uh,
really, really happy to be partof it now for 12 years with the
gym and and um, in july I'll beone year with the coffee shop,
so so really enjoyed being onBroad Street and it's kind of

(52:40):
snowballed, you know, all theother facilities into what they
are as well, kind of just keptspreading that like rock
climbing Chattanooga passionthroughout the southeast.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's awesome to see and I agree with
you because I know Big River isgetting they're doing something
there.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yeah, new retailers coming in there.
Yeah, yeah, so a new retaileris coming in there, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
So, and that hotel right beside the movie theater,
yeah, that's going to be bigyeah.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
There's a bunch of them.
New embassy suites is going in,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
All right.
So I've got to ask you to likeclose this out, because there
one climb that stands out to you.
It's like your most memorableclimb, whether it was the
hardest, most epic, like yourproudest send, or maybe biggest
fail, I don't know.
Is there one that really standsout to you oh man, like

(53:28):
lifelong climb, my favoriteclimb ever yeah man.
No, it's hard, I never that'syeah.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
Is there one that?

Speaker 2 (53:34):
stands out for any reason.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
I would say, man, that's tough.
I would say like something atT-Wall, like in the Message Cave
, something like that.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Yeah, just something like Prowl that was epic I mean,
like you know, like a harderclimb I did maybe a month ago
kind of stands out as well.
But you know, just something Itried super hard on and I
probably doubted myself Icouldn't do it and I did it.
That's what stands out.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
What about mountain bike trail?
You got a mountain bike trailthat stands out to you as being
like your favorite one to ride.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
Oh man, the new Durham stuff for sure is so good
Steam shovel.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Okay, haven't ridden that Up on Lookout.
Yeah, it's connected to FivePoints.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Okay, I haven't ridden that.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
That's amazing.
I'm going to go check that out.
I just got my girlfriend amountain bike and I took her to
Five Points first time last week.
She's really good.
I took her to the Whiskey TrailI always call them.
I was Moonshine right there byLula Lake.
Oh yeah, I was a little toughon her.
She had a few over-the-barmoments, but luckily she's on my
mountain bike just trashing mycarbon cross-country bike like
in and over and over.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
I'm like ah, don't worry about it, you're cringing
more than she is.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, I'm like please stop crashing.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
I can just like cha-ching, cha-ching, carbon fl?
Um, I would say sunset, becauseI started running there at 16
and I've been running there for20 years now.
So like, like running pastclimbs I've done and still do,
um, but like, like there's aloop there that's kind of
nicknamed big daddy loop.
So I've been doing that loopfor 20 years and uh, yeah, I
love it and I would say I wouldsay biking, there's a, there's a
loop that's called thesequatchie loop.
You go up suck creek, you gonorth of the valley, come up

(55:22):
taft highway, across signal andeither come back down the front
or come back down the w road.
Yeah, same thing, I've beendoing that loop for like 20
years.
So if you're asking what's myfavorite loop, I just have like
this nostalgia it's at thispoint with some of those loops.
So you know, you know you canreminisce, you've done it with
friends and through alldifferent weather conditions and
you kind of know like everysingle like pothole along the

(55:42):
way, right, yeah, I would saystuff like that.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yeah, those are all great loops.
Now the Big Daddy Loop.
What does that consist of?
Because I love the sunset likethe Rim Trail there.
It goes all the way down toCovenant College to Covenant
College.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
Yeah, are you dropping down, john Smart?
Then, yeah, well, there's likea kind of a dispute about how it
really starts in terms of whattrails.
But basically you park atCraven's House and you run to
Sky Yucca Springs Trail and thenyou go up, john Smart.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
That's a brutal one going up that thing.
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yeah, and then take the bluff trail back down to
Craven's House.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Okay, I'm not supposed to say this, but my
favorite mountain bike trail intown is that Sunset Rim Trail.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Well, the cool thing is now there's like river to
clouds, so you can take, you can.
You can bike from here on amountain bike.
You know, you take the truckroad out, you can go up the
let's see the top part of JohnSmart to Covenant College All
legal.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yeah, all about the Cloudland Canyon.
Yeah, I've heard that I haven'tdone that yet.
I've just always, from back inthe day, like we used to poach
all this shit a lot of at nighttime.
We night ride and we go up.
Never heard of it.
Never heard of poaching.
That was my favorite stuff.
I've still got some.
I've mentioned my 40th comingup and I want to do the whole
cloudland connector because Ihaven't done the whole thing yet
and I'm just kind of gettingback into mountain biking again.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
I remember when you were into running you did some
Mullins Cove loops during therace.
Remember that.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
I drank beers every mile.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
What were you doing?

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Yeah.
So man, that started the nightbefore at Tremont Tavern, I'm
pretty sure, and we were alldrinking and we're like we got
this idea and we're like, hammerdrunk at midnight.
We're like let's do a.
Have you ever done a Rod Dixonrace with us where you drink a
beer every mile?

Speaker 1 (57:17):
No, I would die, dude .
I'm good for two beers and thenI'm stumbling around, so I
always throw up in it.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
I get to the last mile every time and it doesn't
matter if I'm first or lastrunning, I throw it up Like my
stomach just can't hold sixbeers.
I'm just a little hoping it'llbe different.
So we started the idea there,but we had to get the beers out
there and so my buddy Sam Evansand I went out and we took beers
for me.
Sam, Hugh Huffaker did it withus, and then my buddy Mitch I

(57:44):
mentioned earlier, and we didthe 10K.
So we put a beer every mile.
So Sam and I ran a backpack onhim, a backpack on me, and we
put beers for all four of us,four beers every mile throughout
the 10k.
Nice, and I think we got thereat like 4 45 am, like we were
drunk at tremont at midnightstill probably drunk more
running the first time to putall the beers out and then we

(58:05):
jumped in.
Mitch was the only one thatactually registered for the race
, so he started the river gorgerace and then we jumped in down
the road just by our car yeahand mitch wound up, I think,
getting second overall or thirdoverall, something like that,
and then with a beer everymile, yeah, and sam, sam beat
him, but he was unofficialbecause he didn't register.

(58:25):
I threw up and I they droppedme when I threw up, of course,
on the last mile and I think Iwas like fifth overall.
Is that dq?
You or you keep going?
Well, yeah, dq, for my own race, yeah dq.
Yeah, it's a hard world man.
So Sam won it.
And then I remember, wheneverMitch came across, sam finishes
his beer, turns around, slapsthe shit out of Mitch and it's
like you know, they got the RockCreek tent up and everything,

(58:47):
and it's like people and littlekids waiting for their family.
I was there, yeah, and he justslapped the shit out of that.
You came across the finish line.
Then Hugh did really good too.
I think he came in not longafter that.
I was impressed.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
I think I was on the ground vomiting too, but it was
because I ran super hard.
But we were like in the samemental place, just exhausted,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
And we were hammer drunk at that point, you know,
and it was what, like 9.30 am,or something like that.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
I may have waited until the evening to have a beer
, but I definitely had somerespect for you guys.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
That was brutal Fun times.
Yeah, I tried one of those notlong ago, actually, like I guess
it was last winter, I tried itSame thing.
I ran to the last mile and Ihad half a mile left and vomited
everywhere.
But it was in a neighborhood,this time A little more
responsible.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
This time.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Well, except for it was like around a bunch of
houses, you know, and thefamilies are like mommy, there's
an old man vomiting in the yardyeah, the mailbox got like a
midnight shower.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Yeah, I felt bad about that.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
But you know it's just fertilizer or something, I
guess, for the grass.
But yeah, so I got dq'd again.
Mitch won it again.
He hell, he drank three beersbefore we even started.
The guy's stomach must just bemassive.
Yeah, I think his last mile heran like a 530, you know, like
it's pretty solid for a fifthmile with five bit well, in his
case he had seven, eight beersat his stomach.
I I think he's cheating somehow, but I think he's elite

(01:00:05):
category.
I'm gonna have him in here fornext podcast.
We need to get him signed upfor one of those beer miles,
sweet or something.
Well, man, anything else youwant to say?
I think we covered a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Yeah, there's a lot of yeah, it's been great, man, I
appreciate you having me onit's.
Uh, we got, we've y'all did ourfirst website way back 12 years
ago, so I kind of feel likewe're coming full circle for
full circle here yeah and uhyeah, really enjoyed uh working
with you um over the years anduh hope to continue to do so
yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
There's some fun t-shirts.
We did too.
I think Hugh came up with a lotof those t-shirts, maybe with
you and some of us.
We're all brainstorming Damnlike dinosaurs and random shit
like that.
I don't know.
It was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Man, the Miami Vice one we did.
We're still printing to thisday.
No way and it was like thelimits they're like I don't know
.
I'm like no, we have to do it.
We're still printing it, sothat's awesome Years later it's
still relevant.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Hell, you have a t-shirt you just brought us for
Trail Town.
Look great too.
Thanks man.
Yeah, it's awesome.