The Winter King by C. L. Wilson Part 4

This week, the Traders visit the icy land of Wintercraig in a romantasy full of weather magic and intrigue as they cover The Winter King by C.L. Wilson. This is Part 4 of 4

Triggers: torture, abuse, loss of pregnancy, discussion of off-page war and rape

Tropes: damsel in distress, enemies to lovers, magic systems, miscommunication

KU: Yes

Recommendation: TBD

For more of the author, check out www.clwilson.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey friends, just a quick reminder before we get into today's episode, come join us

(00:04):
over on our Patreon.
That's where we release bonus episodes every other week and we've already got over 20
episodes from 2023 that you can download and binge right now for as little as $3 a month.
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That's also where we'll cover any books in a series we continue, so Serpent in Dove,

(00:25):
High Mountain Court, Serpent in the Wings of Night.
You can continue those series with us on Patreon right now.
Finally, as a patron, we let you know what we're going to read every month so you can
read along with us if that's your jam.
Anyway, that's all from me on to today's episode.
Also like you're gonna believe this freakazoid creep Rekha who just shows up in the middle

(00:47):
of the forest in like a cloak and is just like, she lied to you.
I'm like, okay, Mother Goyle.
Can you like dial it back?
Like 5%?!
Hello, Mother Goyle.
Oh, keep it seriously.
Welcome to Your Safe Space, the podcast your partner, friends, parents, whoever thinks is

(01:12):
dirty.
Don't have time to read books, want to understand the jokes in the tics-hacks, we got you fam.
We're the spice traders and we deal in spicy books.
I'm Katie and I need it to make sense.
I'm Liz and I'm hypercritical.
As always, we start every episode with three things.
The first is a generic trigger warning.
You can find specific triggers for this book in our show notes, so please check those out.

(01:33):
Also we do use foul language and talk a lot about sex.
If you have sensitivity to any of this, please give this episode a skip.
Secondly, we talk about books.
The whole book, nothing but the books that helped me got us.
If you plan to read this book and don't want something spoiled right now, don't listen
to this episode.
Lastly, we acknowledge that a good book can hit you at the wrong time.
The views expressed in our discussion are our opinion and we absolutely don't want to diminish

(01:56):
the work and the talent of the authors in our community.
That said, we have some notes.
Um, so Katie, what are we talking about today?

(02:16):
Yeah, today we are finally finishing The Winter King by C.L. Wilson.
This is part four of four and it will cover chapters 22 through the epilogue and it will
also contain our ratings.
And girl, I haven't put my ratings in yet.
I still don't know what my ratings are going to be.
So let's go through this together.

(02:38):
I don't, yeah, I don't know.
I don't, I don't know.
I need a new scale.
I don't know where as it usually does, like my feelings will crystallize the more we talk
about it.
That's what I'm hoping because right now it's just sort of like threes, I guess.
I know, right?
Okay.

(02:59):
So first and foremost, I do have to call out that we do have a Sarah J. Mass situation
here because there's just so much that's crammed into the last quarter of this book
that it's just criminal.
So buckle up and we'll get through it together.
It is criminal.
So we last left Cam and Winter and they were both unconscious after being attacked by Garm.

(03:22):
So Cam's in wakes up first and she realizes pretty quickly that she's chained to a bed.
Valak and a bunch of other winter men are standing over her and they don't look very
happy.
So she demands to know what's up.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, not kinky though.
I know.
Not that kind of book.
Not at all.
Not at all.
What a bummer.

(03:45):
So she demands to know what's up and Valak's like, what were you doing outside of the palace
during the hunt?
And she's like, that's a very specific question.
I'm your queen and I've already explained myself to my husband, your king, so you can
ask him.
And then Valak's like, well, your brother invaded Wintercrate three days ago and Verden
and his generals also escaped their confinement that day too.

(04:07):
And so the timing of you leaving the palace is kind of suspicious.
So Cam's like, oof, fair.
Yeah, because that is really suspicious.
But also, I don't remember her dad and the generals being put into confinement.
Like Valak kind of says that as if they like escaped prison.

(04:29):
But I thought they were just like left to be in summerly.
I think they were, but I think they were probably like not in prison, but like kind
of on house arrest.
Like when you're a suspect in a crime, like don't leave the city kind of thing.
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Because I was like, they escaped their confinement.

(04:49):
What are you talking about, bro?
Well, because they also like, Winter wouldn't want them unsupervised because then they might
like, I don't know, start to try to start a rebellion, you know?
Yeah, that's true.
So like they're definitely under watch, but they, and they did anyway.
Yeah, so I mean, good on you.
Way to go.
Right?

(05:10):
So I worry.
So Cam tells them everything, right?
Reika sneaking out of the palace, all of that.
I mean, I guess she didn't really sneak, but you know, the Reika part in particular, and
then the garb.
But some of the wintermen around her don't believe her.
It's clear that they had no idea about the number of garb who attacked her in winter,
which tells Cam that winter is either dead or still unconscious.

(05:31):
So Valak confirms for her that winter has not woken up.
He's unconscious.
And near death?
She demands at that point to be taken to winter and is met with swads.
And so she's like, let me see him or I'll fry you all where you stand, which is like
great badass energy.
But I think the problem that I have with Cam is that it just feels like so inconsistent.

(05:54):
Yeah, because I really, I liked the scene and she kind of stands up to Valak and is
like, I'm your queen.
Like, and Sherry saw a glimmer of like, oh, maybe she's not lying in Valak.
And so this like, I will gather my power and I will kill you.
But it's not consistent because so many other times she's just like a wallflower.

(06:15):
Yeah.
Or she's un, she's insecure in being able to wield her powers.
Like, we'll see even like, I don't know, 20 pages away from this where she's basically
given an opportunity to use her power at will.
And she's like, trying to figure out how to do it.
And I'm like, okay, so then how are you going to make good on threats like that?

(06:38):
I know.
And I, this is me totally giving her the benefit of the doubt, like thinking that maybe she
could just bluff them all.
Like they don't know how inconsistent it is, but girl, we do.
Who are you kidding?
Yeah, exactly.
It's kind of, it reminds me of this, this particular thing reminded me a lot of like
in part one where she was like, no man's going to put me out onto a glacier.

(07:00):
And then like the very next chapter, she's dying like, girl.
Yeah.
Like good thought, poor execution.
Very poor execution.
But regardless, Phallic takes her to winter.
And when she sees him, she's horrified to see that they've actually put him in the fireplace
that is fully on fire.
And the reason that they've done that, Galatia tells her is that it's the only way to keep

(07:24):
the ice heart at bay because winter is very close to turning into the ice king.
And when Cam looks more closely at him, she sees that his entire body is covered with
ice.
Yeah.
The fire is not touching him at all, which was a really fascinating visual.
I just understood more of this whole ice king thing.
Cause I do think that the details are well executed, just not the crux of it.

(07:48):
Yeah.
I just have questions.
And they're like, it's like you're weaving a carpet and you want to make it square, but
it kind of turns out like a rhombus.
And I just want to make it straight.
That is a really good way to phrase that.
So now that Cam is awake, they all want her to try to push the ice heart back permanently

(08:09):
using her weather gifts.
The reason that they think she can do this is because Valic in particular has seen that
she's done that before in the past.
But I don't think that's the way that, like I just have questions about this.
Like Valic doesn't like Cam, but now all of a sudden he's like, she's the only one
that can push.

(08:30):
Like I just don't buy that.
No.
And point to me when she did that before.
Show me proof of that.
In his presence, I would say never.
So like what is he even talking about?
Exactly.
But nevertheless, they all go outside and Cam summons a storm and strikes herself with
lightning so her body heaps up like a lot.

(08:52):
And then she hugs Winter to melt the ice his body is encased in.
So this is the scene that I'm talking about where they're standing outside this hunting
lodge that Winter's family has.
And she's like, okay, how do I summon a storm when I'm not in danger and I'm not angry?
I'm like, girl, you're 20 something.
How do you not, how have you not figured this out?

(09:13):
Like I just, okay.
And then she like tries, she ends up doing it because she talks herself up about how
Winter's the only man that ever vouched for her blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I just didn't like this.
I didn't like that either.
And I think I had this complaint in either the first or the second part of your, you

(09:34):
weren't recognized as a member of your own court or your own family.
How have you not learned how to work on your gifts?
And even this whole like, Winter's the only one who's ever seen me.
Like I don't think that's true either because you haven't spent any time together.
No.
Well, and maybe toward the end there, he was starting to make her feel welcome, but that's

(09:54):
certainly not the majority of his actions.
And so I don't think it's fair for her to just be like, all sins are forgiven, you know?
Yeah, no, because it's stupid.
Yeah.
But regardless, this strategy works and Winter wakes up and is relieved to see Cam alive.

(10:15):
But he's still weak because he still has wounds and he's lost a lot of blood.
So the Isis essentially prevented anybody from treating the wounds that he sustained
when they were fighting off the Garm.
So they kind of confer about what to do about that.
And Cam ultimately says that they need Tildi as she's the best healer that she knows about.
And it turns out that Winter had already sent for Tildi before, specifically somewhere between

(10:37):
the time that Mel suggested that Cam needed a friend.
And before or around the time that he realized that Cam is pregnant again.
So Tildi is super close.
Also surprise, Cam, you're pregnant.
I hated this reveal so much.
I hated it because then I was like, oh, and Winter already knew.

(11:01):
Also, like, I went.
And I think I just don't like pregnancy as a trope.
And I know there was kind of the whole point in here.
But like, how can she?
Okay, okay, okay, okay.
She knows still at this point that the only way to save her own life is to have a kid,

(11:23):
essentially, right?
How is she not aware of her own periods?
Yeah, I think that's the thing about the pregnancy tropes that I hate the most.
Like, how did you grow up and nobody told you about these things?
Like, I'll be the first to admit that I, during my pregnancy, had no idea what I was

(11:44):
doing.
But I was at least aware of the things that would happen to me when I was pregnant.
And even if I had blown right past like, taking a test and like, actually trying to track
it and make it happen, like, I was so ill that first semester that like, or the first
trimester, I should say that there's no way that I would mistake that for anything else.

(12:06):
Well, she really, I mean, so we see her as the audience, like, sick and dizzy and ill,
but she really doesn't give it any thoughts.
Like we never get an internal monologue of her being like, this is weird.
I was never sick like this before.
Like, she doesn't question it.
She just exists in illness.
Right, exactly.
And I'm like, okay, so have you always been this delicate of a constitution?

(12:29):
So Tildy like, Tildy shows up spoilers, and she's like, I had hoped to find you pregnant.
I'm like, Tildy, did you not prepare her to know like what pregnancy would feel like?
Come on.
Okay, right.
And then even like, because she was like, I'm not pregnant.
And Mel is like, well, when's the last time you bled?
And she thinks, but she's like, Oh, it's been six weeks.
And I'm just like, you were 20 something years old.

(12:52):
Girl.
I like, I can understand not knowing the first time, right?
She has a miscarriage pretty quick, but like, what the fuck?
I did like, I think Mel, I think it's Mel, he says it.
And she's like, well, you guys, essentially, she doesn't use these words, but you guys
have basically been like fucking like rabbits.
So if you weren't pregnant, something would be, something would be wrong.

(13:14):
Right.
Like one of you has a problem, but I just, I don't like the pregnancy trope, which I
think many reasons why I was mad that she got pregnant anyway, but I was like, this reveal
was such bullshit.
It was bullshit even.
Okay.
Yeah.
We'll get to it when we get to it, but it was bullshit because it didn't fulfill the
success criteria that this book has laid out, right?

(13:37):
And the success criteria, I mean, like what it's going to take for both of them to like
shut up and admit that you trust and love each other.
It wasn't, it's not the baby.
So the baby's almost like secondary.
It is secondary to like what it actually takes, which is annoying.
Cause then why are we here?
Right, because then why make her pregnant at all?

(13:58):
Like I was just saying, it's a much more interesting, it's not that much more interesting, but I
think it's a more interesting story if she had been able to thaw the ice heart and save
him just from his love of her, which is what we had thought.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Which is kind of true, but they still get a baby.
Yeah.
Consolation prize, I guess.
As all babies should be.

(14:20):
There's also this weird thing because Khaleesi is like, Oh yeah, winter notice that you
started smelling differently and that's when he knew that you were pregnant.
So you'll give birth at the end of the summer.
Ew, ew.
I know that he's like a wolf, something I don't care.
That's disgusting.
No, you don't have to tell me that.
I don't need to know that.
And it bothers me that like, cause that's gross for one, but it also bothers me that

(14:46):
he was just like waiting for her to realize it, which makes all the scenes they've had
together even weirder.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, so Valic leaves to go get Tildy and after three days they come back to the hunting
lodge.
Cam is very happy to see Tildy, but Valic is wary for a lot of reasons.

(15:10):
And then also Cam does this weird thing where she introduces Tildy to Valic and I'm like,
girl, they just traveled like three days together.
Why are you introducing them?
And I was also a little confused why she's like suddenly super happy to see Tildy when
the last time they saw each other, she was basically like, I never want to see your face
again.
Goodbye.
That was very non sequitur.

(15:31):
Yeah.
Now she's just like, oh Tildy, my favorite.
My only friend girl, still staff.
Still staff, still staff.
Anyway, it comes out that Valic is the one that Tildy was passing information to you
back in the day.
So they're like old pals, right?
Been there, done that.
Been there, done that.
So Tildy steps to work even though Valic doesn't trust her.

(15:54):
And as she does so, Cam shares with her about the miscarriage thing with Bella, Verdon,
and Tildy is again shocked by Verdon's actions to which I say, why are we still here?
To which I say, what?
Yeah.
But she works until the infection in Winter's wounds has gotten under control and that's
when Cam and Tildy and Galacia finally take a break.

(16:16):
Valic's like, go rest.
You did your part.
Thank you so much.
We'll take it from here.
So they rest and Cam is woken up by Tildy who tries to convince her to run away to her
freedom.
She tells her that she drug the guards so no one will stop them and goes on to say that
her brother Falcon is waiting for Cam.
But Cam refuses.
She tells Tildy that she'll keep Tildy there against her will if that's what it takes to

(16:39):
ensure Winter's recovery.
So she tells Tildy to send Falcon a message that they aren't coming.
Okay.
So though Winter is recovering, Valic gets word that they must move.
He takes Cam outside with Galicia and asks her about her loyalties.
She tells him, quote, this is my home now, more of a home than summerly ever was.
Is that what you wanted to hear?

(16:59):
That my life there was so pathetic, my existence so miserable that I'm happier here, even living
under constant clouds of suspicion and doubt than I ever was there, end quote.
But he presses her.
You know, if you had a choice between your family and Winter, who would you pick?
And she's like, I would choose Winter because I love him.
So having been convinced of her loyalty, finally, I guess they tell her that Varisola has been

(17:22):
freed and that Guildheim is defenseless against the armies because I guess the armies are
spread along the coast.
Like this is where I just didn't understand why Guildheim was so ill-equipped to defend
against uninvasion since they were the victor in that war.
And we've seen, I mean, like the whole time that Winter was avoiding her, he was like

(17:44):
going to outposts and plotting and protecting.
So like how was it just like, Guildheim has fallen?
Like how?
How?
Yeah.
Well, and like Winter made this whole show of telling us before that the coasts were
vulnerable because their watch posts were crumbling and not well manned.

(18:06):
And I'm like, okay, then where is everybody?
Like I just don't, you marched back with an army from Varisola at the beginning of this
book.
Like where did all those people go?
Are they just on vacay?
I guess.
I just, it's clear that this book was trying to like be political.
I just don't think it was executed very well.

(18:27):
No.
I mean, it's honestly, so I do like political intrigue in books like I'm listening to one
now that is doing a pretty good job of it.
When we have more time, I'm going to tell you about the magic system because it's really
cool.
But don't write a political book if you don't want to do the research or the planning to
make it make sense.
Right.
Or at least bounce some ideas off of somebody, right?

(18:49):
I'm not saying maybe, I'm sure this author did that, but it's just like, this seems like
a pretty glaring question.
And I would be even okay with like a one line fixer of like, oh yeah, even though we won,
like we're down to a third of our capacity or whatever it was, but we don't get that.
Yeah, which just bugs me.

(19:09):
Yeah.
So Valak and Gilesia tell Cam that she has to ride back to the Capitol in order to help
protect it, and that specifically she must find blazing because Gilesia actually knows
where it is and has this whole time.
It's in the temple of Wern, which is the goddess that Gilesia serves.
Wern.

(19:30):
Wern.
So back to winter, who finally wakes up when he isn't supposed to, and he struggles as
Tildi has his men hold him down so she can drug him again.
Essentially, they don't want him up and moving around because his wounds are still healing
and so they want him asleep.
During this time, his internal monologue searches for Cam and wonders why she's left him.

(19:50):
Back to Cam.
Well, she's passing through the village of Canondal and finds it deserted.
Its inhabitants have been slaughtered by the garm.
When they arrive at the Palace of Gildenheim, they have a similar scene to behold, but not
everyone is dead.
The survivors are kind of cleaning up the place and Mel, Lady Mel is one of them.
She tells them that they were beset by five garm and that those they killed with their

(20:15):
breath came back to life as their thralls.
This is taken as evidence that Rorschach, the Ice King, has indeed returned.
So with renewed urgency, Cam hurries to the temple of Wern and they find that too deserted.
She arrives with a handful of guards and she leaves those guards in the main room knowing

(20:36):
that she must continue to wear blazing is alone and also naked for some reason.
Um, okay.
What?
Yeah, right.
So I read that a couple of times like why?
I just and like she does this one line fixer.
She's like ceremonial sonnas and cold punches, blah, blah.
I don't do any of that.
I just have to go naked.

(20:56):
I'm like, okay, but you.
I didn't see evidence of magic that would kill you if you weren't naked.
And then you put on a ceremonial robe anyways.
You're not really like I just why?
It just doesn't make any sense.
Yeah.
It doesn't make sense.
So she puts on a robe, right?

(21:20):
And she also has one of the crystal spears from Galatia in case she needs it.
As she regresses down a hall through a gilded door, she finds one of the priestesses that
has been slain.
She continues on another long tunnel and that eventually leads to a room with heavier robes
and boots and she changes into those.
And I'm like, why are there so many costume changes here?
I don't know.
It's a great question.
And then that tunnel leads very, very far down under a glacier.

(21:45):
At the bottom of this tunnel, she finds a palace that is like the palace of the goddess
Wern apparently.
And it's in a cavern so large that it could fit all of Gildenheim with room to spare.
And I just, I have a lot of questions like what and for why?

(22:07):
And like, okay, so this temple was built into the side of a mountain glacier and then this
tunnel was built from the temple to this palace that was there and maybe it was used by somebody
at some point.
And so was it covered by the glacier after the fact?
Like, why is this here?

(22:30):
That's, you know, a wonderful series of questions and I couldn't tell you.
So she goes into the palace and finds its innermost room and at the door she finds the
other priestess also slain.
Inside this room is a rotunda with life-sized statues of men and women around it which are

(22:50):
all frozen in a different pose like they were trying to do something like all trying to
do different things like running or fighting or whatever.
In the center of the room is a pool of black liquid.
Cam knows that she must go into this pool to get blazing and it's here that she realizes
that the gods are actually very real, which is something that she had never considered
before and that that must include the tales about Roland and I'm just like, okay.

(23:14):
Okay, okay, okay.
This doesn't make any sense to me because she is obsessed with Roland and is from his
line, right?
Like Roland is supposedly her like great great great uncle or some shit, but you didn't think
he was real?
Yeah, I just, what?

(23:38):
What?
I just, I just have a lot of questions here because like the Roland thing, it's weird that
Roland is lumped in with like the gods and goddesses part, like you're supposed to be
related to Roland like even to the point where you talked about how like it was actually
his brother because Roland died and I'm like, that seemed like a history lesson, not a legend,

(24:00):
right?
And maybe there are things about that that have been like exaggerated over time like
King Arthur-esque, but right.
I don't understand why she lumps him into the same like thought as like, oh, the goddess
of Wern is actually like a thing.
Okay, what?
Okay.
It just felt like such a weird, I didn't need any of that and it just gave me more confusion

(24:26):
and it upset me.
Yeah, it's also weird to me that like, it's never explicitly said, but it's almost like
blazing should be intertwined with like this story of the Ice King and this goddess of
Wern, but it's not like they have the ice spears and then like blazing is this other

(24:48):
thing that like maybe we got some information on where it came from, but I don't remember
what it was and it just feels like very all over the place.
I feel the same way and I think that would have been so clean because it makes sense
for them.
This kind of strikes me as if she had a plan for it to be tied together and just didn't

(25:08):
execute it because it makes sense for there to be blazing a sword that just by the name
is associated with heat and fire to me to be counter to the ice swords, which are the
only things that can kill the Ice King like and Roland like all the pieces are there,
they just weren't connected.
Yeah, I agree because it's like, why doesn't ice spear kill an ice king?

(25:31):
Why wouldn't a fire sword kill an ice king?
Right?
Like why wouldn't blazing be something that the goddess of Wern created to kill her corrupted
lover?
Right?
Yeah, which would be so much more streamlined and frankly interesting than this weird like
I'm just going to shove all these stories together and hope it sticks.
Agreed.

(25:51):
Anyway, so Cam is standing there contemplating what she has to do and then she's attacked.
When she faces her attacker, it's a woman with white hair and blue white skin with pale
colorless eyes and she realizes pretty quickly that it's one of the statues that is actually
an ice thrall.
She knows in her head and she she said kind of to us in her inner monologue like don't

(26:16):
touch anything because if she touches something like that will trigger kind of the traps in
the room to like spring and maybe one of those traps is these statues coming alive.
And so she's like looking at this thing attacking her.
She's like, I didn't touch anything.
Why is this happening?
But she doesn't really have a like an opportunity to think much past that because she realizes
that her attacker also has one of the ice spears.

(26:38):
So she's like grappling with this being and she loses her footing and falls backward into
the pool.
She's freezing cold and she feels like she's being dragged down to the bottom and frozen
to her very core.
Once inside, she realizes that the top has frozen over as well.
So she has to find an air pocket and suck down as much air as she possibly can before
she dives down for blazing.

(27:01):
Just as she's about to lose all of her breath, she sees the sword and grasps it.
As soon as her hand reaches the hilt, she sees like a vision of the past.
Usually she sees the god Helos falling in love with a mortal queen and siring Roland
in his brother.
She sees Roland grow up.
She sees him wedding a winter princess.
She sees foreign kings threatened by that union and invading Wintergrag.

(27:25):
And then she sees Roland using the sword blazing and using it to vanquish the invaders and supposedly
end his life.
But in her vision, she realizes that Roland did not die before sying a child because his
queen was already pregnant.
And thus, Cam realizes that she is indeed descended from Roland himself and not his
brother.
This poor brother is just like playing second fiddle all over the place.

(27:48):
I know because like, I don't know, he doesn't even really get named, does he?
He doesn't even get a named.
I want to, I don't know.
I don't remember.
I would be speaking out of my ass to say yes definitively.
Like it doesn't really matter that he doesn't, but like just his poor brother.

(28:10):
And then there's this reveal like, oh, you're just sending it from Roland specifically.
Like this is, I don't, I don't care.
I don't care.
Yeah.
I'm like, does it matter?
Okay.
No, no, it doesn't.
No.
So this kind of vision quest happens in over the course of an instant.
And when she comes back to herself, Cam realizes that she has renewed vigor and air in her

(28:31):
lungs and she uses that energy as well as the sword to break through the ice on the surface
of the pool.
Once back in the room, she fights off the thrall who attacked her and plunges the sword
into its heart.
When she does, it becomes clear that this person was Elka.
As she's dying, she tells Cam who pushed her into this room to try to get the ice heart
and it was Rekha.

(28:52):
It was also Rekha who raised Rorjak from the dead.
And then Elka dies and realize, and Cam realizes that she's wearing Falcons pendant, so she
takes that from her.
So it's clear here that Rekha has also taken the ice heart and like, Rek, Elka says very
specifically like Rekha has raised Rorjak from the dead.

(29:17):
Does that mean she's embodying Rorjak?
Is Rorjak a separate person?
Like we'll see later in this battle for no reason that the ice king is kind of embodied
in winter, but like, I'm just confused.
This I read this part probably like three times trying to understand what happened.

(29:39):
And I still don't understand how many ice hearts there are and why people can just go
take it like willy nilly.
And why no one knew that she took it.
If it's like guarded and there's a test to take it.
And if she has it, then how can winter also have it?
And if Rorjak has been raised and why is winter in any danger of the ice king at all personally?

(30:00):
Can there just be like infinite Rorjaks?
Like I don't why are there multiples?
Why are there multiples?
Right.
All of these are good questions.
Like it really lost me in this part.
So it's like none of this makes sense.
None of this makes sense to me.
No, same.

(30:22):
So I was hoping you would explain it to me, but I feel better now knowing that I didn't
miss anything.
Girl, I wish I could, but I can't, so I won't.
So Cam is also reeling from this information, but for completely different reasons because
to her it all makes sense.
She's like, and one of the things that she realizes, and this is another thing that

(30:42):
throws a wrench into my thought process is that if Rika is the one who has summoned the
ice king or resurrected him or whatever, then there's still a chance to save winter air
go.
Winter is not the ice king.
And I'm like, girl, which is it?
Because if winter's not the ice king, then what the hell is happening to winter?
Well, and we'll see in just like a couple of pages, he is the ice king.

(31:06):
Like I just, ugh.
So again, my question, can there just be infinite ice kings?
How many people can do this thing?
And why do you let anyone do it?
Right.
And if there's more than like five ice kings, doesn't that become like an oligarchy or a
democracy at some point?
And then like, who do the frost giants obey?
Is it just like a favoritism thing or do they cast votes?

(31:27):
Like I have questions.
I have so many questions.
So Cam is contemplating her next move.
She does that a lot.
And in this pause, Elka rises from the dead.
So Cam uses Blazing's magic and speaks aloud the command burn and sets fire to Elka.
And this is something that I just absolutely could not stand about the way this sword works

(31:50):
is that she holds it in her hand.
She like, I a picture holds it upright, right?
So hilt in the hand, blade pointing skyward and she's like pointing it at the person perpendicular
to the ground and she just says burn.
And then the thing burns.
And I'm just like, wow, that is dorky as hell.

(32:12):
That's what I pictured.
And honestly, it fell in line with all of her pretend play with it.
Yeah.
And I hated it.
I hate that.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So back to winter, who's having a dream about wolves gathering.
And just before he wakes up, he realizes that the wolves are not wolves, but Garm.
When he wakes up, he confers with the people around him, specifically Tildian Valak.

(32:34):
He asks what happened.
And they're like, well, you've been out for a week and you were healing.
And he's like, cool, cool, cool, cool.
So Cam did indeed protect me and killed two Garm that were attacking us.
It's really happened.
Yeah.
But he's like, so where's she at?
And Valak's like, well, she's defending your palace.

(32:55):
And he's like, cool, but I want her here with me.
But I'm lonely.
Yeah.
He tells us that he feels a coldness within him when she's not by his side.
And I'm like, God.
Gross.
He then tells them that they need to get moving because the Ice King's army has formed and
that they are specifically coming directly for them, which I guess is essentially the

(33:17):
information that he got from his dream, but that's kind of a wild thing to do to make a
decision like that based on a dream.
Especially when we haven't gotten any information that he's particularly prophetic or that the
wolves like communicate with him.
So like, my man, what?
And no one questions that.
They're just like, yes, sir, let's go to it, sir.
Right.

(33:38):
They're like, nobody asks the follow up question like, how do you know that?
Who told you?
Nope.
Because I said so.
They're like, okay.
Yep.
But ultimately they all end up bargaining on how long they're going to stay and wait
because winter is still not really well enough to travel.
So they agree that they will wait two days and then travel, which is information I did
not need to see.
No.

(33:59):
Tell me that later.
Right.
Back to Cam, who is exiting the temple.
She finds Christie.
He is there with the guards that she left behind.
And they're like, cool, you got the thing.
Let's go protect our people.
But as they leave the temple, they're ambushed by Falcon, who kills all of the guards except
for Christie and Cam.

(34:19):
Falcon tells her that he got her message, but there was no way he wasn't going to come
and save his sister who he loves.
Cam tells us quote, he spoke with such absolute sincerity that Cam's heart stuttered for an
instant.
She truly believed he'd come for her because he loved her and had to save her.
She wanted to believe him just as she wanted to believe the best of him all her life, but

(34:41):
she didn't.
So with this sentiment, she pretty quickly realizes that Falcon is very self-serving
and really was only there for whomever left the temple with the sword.
And once the gloves are off, he demands the sword from Cam, but she refuses.
And again, Cam proves how useless she is because she allows herself to be hit on the head by
some other guard and blacks out.

(35:04):
She's so dumb.
The scream ice-crumpt.
The eyes I rolled when I read this, I almost yeeted my phone across the room.
I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me.
This is so dumb.
Cam, I want to root for you, but you just, girl, you're not giving me very much.
No.
I was reading at the top of my lungs because I was a little bit behind.

(35:27):
But at this part, I did have a good 20 seconds of staring into the abyss of being like, I
can't finish this book.
I can't finish this book.
I'm just going to talk to Katie that I can't finish this book.
Girl, I had the same thought.
I read that.
I was like, I'm out.
I don't think I picked this book back up for a couple of days.
No.
The only reason I kept going is because this was yesterday and I was like, God fucking

(35:51):
damn it.
Thank God there were like 50 pages left, but I was like, I can't.
I can't.
Yeah.
So when Cam wakes up, she's tied up and they're camping somewhere.
Of course.
And Cam asks Falcon what he's going to do with the sword and he says that he's going
to get revenge on the winter people.
She's like, well, that doesn't sound very noble.

(36:12):
He's like, don't worry about that.
Kings need to be feared.
Nobility is a fine ideal, but real life demands something a little bit more practical.
She's like, that's the answer of a weak man and not a strong king.
Falcon definitely voted for Trump.
He definitely voted for Trump.
And I don't, I think one of the things that was so frustrating to me about the end of

(36:33):
this book was that Cam continually tries to engage with her brother, even though he
gives her no indication that that's going to be a fruitful exercise.
So she continues this conversation trying to find some shred of humanity in him.
So she tells him about Elka's fate.
At first, Falcon doesn't believe her because he's already swallowed the narrative that
Elka betrayed him.

(36:53):
But she gives him the emblem that she took from Elka's neck.
And all he can say about that after that is that he was wrong about the fact that she
betrayed him.
Cool.
I guess it's got no feelings, but also like that wasn't satisfying to me either.
I wanted, I mean, I, at this point I didn't really care, but I wanted more of a story
of Falcon and Elka.
Like how did you find each other?

(37:17):
What, tell me all of that.
What happened there?
Yeah, Falcon just doesn't seem like a very full formed character to me because I just,
I really don't understand his motivations because it seems like he's drinking his dad's
Kool-Aid because his dad is like, well, the winter court has like always been mean to
us and so we should do something about that.

(37:38):
But that feels very much like I just don't like you.
And just from who Falcon was told to us to be when like at the beginning of this book,
I just don't know how he went so far down the path of corruption.
Exactly.
Like especially because we don't see anything that happens when he comes to visit the first

(37:59):
time as like an emissary.
And I just feel like that's a kind of a gaping hole.
Yeah.
So when the Elka thing doesn't work, Cam tries to tell him about the apocalypse that will
come with the Ice King, but he tells her that those are just children's stories and that
she's being a stupid woman.
Cool.
And it's here that he reveals that he was complicit in luring the garb to villagers

(38:22):
as a distraction.
And Cam is horrified, but Falcon is done with the conversation.
And so he tells Cam not to do anything stupid because he's holding Christie hostage.
Also, until this part, I kind of forgot about Christie entirely.
Yeah, you'd be forgiven because Cam does too in a big way.

(38:44):
As we have decided.
Yeah.
So the next day they move on and we learned that Falcon's traveling with about two dozen
soldiers.
Cam gets on her own horse but is threatened to stay in line with the Christie thing.
So as they travel, she tries to leave a trail of threads from her clothes, hoping that at
least Winter's Wolves might be able to track her scent.

(39:04):
When they stop for the day, she asks about the original distraction when Falcon and Elka
ran away.
Falcon tells her that it wasn't his intention for the pillaging and raping to happen, but
he reveals that he sent one of his men, actually one of his friends, to cause this distraction
and that it was up to their discretion on how to do it.
But Cam is like, dude, you know exactly the character of that person that you sent.

(39:27):
Like, you knew what was going to happen.
She says specifically, quote, in other words, you let the dogs out without caring who got
hurt or how badly.
And that's a pattern that she's starting to recognize in her brother.
Which I do, I was relieved that she came full circle on him pretty quickly.
You're right, she continues to try and engage with him for too long.

(39:49):
But I'm glad that she like sees him for who he is and doesn't stay a Falcon defender until
the end.
Yeah.
Same.
And I don't understand why she keeps engaging like the first realization that he like never
actually cared for her.
Just like it was all surface level.
Like I would have been out and frankly, I didn't need this additional like character

(40:11):
development of Falcon because it just serves to illustrate how one note in shitty he is.
Exactly.
And I also think I would have, I would have liked a recognition of like, oh shit, Winter
was telling the truth the whole time, which we kind of get.
But like it's not satisfying.
No, not at all.
So we're still talking with Falcon and they go on to have a conversation about how Falcon

(40:33):
caused all of this struggle and then ran.
And that's not a very noble, kingly thing to do.
And Falcon's like, okay, fine, but is your husband any different?
And Cam's like, yeah, because he didn't start the fight.
Right.
He just finished it.
Right.
He just finished it.
Oof.
She goes Falcon so much that he stands up and jabs blazing in her direction.

(40:57):
And it's like he's intending to use the magic to like hurt her.
But the sword sort of doesn't respond and he tries to play it off like he's like in
control of his anger.
And at first Cam takes it at face value.
But.
So back at the ranch with Winter, they're still at this fucking haunting lodge.

(41:19):
Oh my God, it takes so long.
I know.
He accuses Galatia of sending his pregnant wife on a death mission.
He also asks that she could portray them all by getting blazing.
But Tildi interjects and is like, Cam wouldn't do that because I gave her that chance to
do just that.
And she refused.
Tildi.
So they talk more about the Ice King's forces and then they eventually decide that they're

(41:44):
going to try to lead those forces to the invading army with Falcon and try to have like both
of those sides fight each other and potentially in the process like save Gildenheim and also
figure out a way to like free Cam.
Because the assumption here I guess is that Cam is in danger.
I don't know where they got that idea.
I don't know.

(42:04):
I guess that she's not trying to portray you, but she's also still with the enemy.
So therefore she must be in danger because she is a wilting flower.
Yeah.
And she can't take care of herself.
I get that.
Yeah.
So back to Cam, who after replaying the scene with the sword and her brother realizes exactly
what happened and that her brother actually can't control the sword.

(42:27):
When they make Cam, she and Christy are left alone to eat and they try to break out of their
confinement.
But just before they do, Falcon rides up and accuses Cam of giving him a fake sword and
she's like, bro, it's not fake.
You're just not Roland's heir.
Sucks to suck.
Sounds like a you problem.
And she's like, you know, who has two thumbs and is Roland's heir this bitch?

(42:50):
I'm going to make that a meme.
So when she announces this, her father of all people appears and is like, yeah, you're
his heir over my dead body.
I'm just like, okay, bro, get out of here.
So they have a touching family reunion where Verden and Falcon argue over how the hell Cam

(43:12):
is the heir of Roland and neither one of them are.
All the while Cam is tied up and gagged in the corner.
What a lovely reunion.
Sounds like all the other family moments they've had.
Truly.
So Falcon so worked up that he goes to strike Cam.
I think because she said something, but she's not gagged at this point, I guess.

(43:33):
Somebody took her gag off and so she says something to Falcon and that pisses him off
and he goes to like slap her and she's like, oh yeah, hit a woman who's defenseless and
tied up.
You're like strong king you are.
And so he doesn't hit her.
But also he learned from his daddy.
He learned from his daddy.
Yeah.

(43:54):
Speaking of daddy, Verden again tells Cam how much he doesn't love her and how much
he blames her for her mother's death.
Like, God, dude, leave it alone.
Go to therapy about it.
Okay.
Move on.
Yeah.
And then he's like, tell somebody who cares, right, because it wasn't my fault.
You stuck your dick in her just as much as she let you do that.

(44:15):
So like, this is just a weak excuse that you've been using your entire life.
So miss me with that.
Thank you.
Yes.
Finally.
And this causes him to punch her in the mouth and that knocks her into the dirt.
Yeah.
I should mention at this point that they've like essentially put a lead cape on her so
she can't use her weather gifts.

(44:38):
Remember how like she asked to, she would go underground to like, oh yeah.
Break her connection.
I think it's the same principle.
That makes sense.
It doesn't, but it makes sense.
Yeah, I guess.
So then Verden and Falcon hypothesize that maybe if Cam dies, the sword will recognize
one of them as its heir instead.

(44:59):
But before they can make good on that threat, they hear the screams of their men outside.
When Verden pokes his head out of the tent, it's clear that the garm are attacking.
So Falcon shouts to arms and Cam begs to be released to help.
Her father releases her binds, but then immediately pushes her outside into the path of a garm
so that he doesn't have to kill her himself, but he can still potentially get, you know,

(45:20):
the heir thing sorted.
I don't know why he doesn't just kill her.
Like it doesn't make sense to me why he isn't just like, here's the sword, I want to cut
your throat.
I don't either.
I think it's because he's a little bitch, but that's not super clear.
No, he's a little bitch baby.
Little bitch boy.
So Cam, as she's being like wheeled backwards and falling outside, she does grab onto her

(45:40):
father and he like falls outside on top of her.
And the garm outside, this is so anticlimactic.
The garm attacks and kills her father in the space of like a paragraph.
Yeah, it was so anticlimactic and there was no justice.
No, I really wanted Cam to like disembowel her father.
Yeah, or at least like intentionally throw him in front of a garm.

(46:03):
This was just accidental.
Totally.
Or have winter like do something.
I don't know.
It just smite him.
It felt like it took, it felt like it took the power away from Cam in this situation.
TTTWOMS.
Yeah, totally.

(46:24):
So her father dies and like falls on top of Cam pinning her to the ground.
And so she like looks over at the tent and asks Falcon for help.
But instead of helping her, he ducks back into the tent, leaving her alone.
Coward.
Yeah.
The garm that killed her father then makes its intention known to kill Cam.
And so she uses what little bit of like weather gift she can muster under this lead coat to

(46:46):
like just shock it with a light thing, but that doesn't like do anything.
It just makes it mad.
Classic.
But before it can like make the killing strike, Christie shows up and kills it with a spear.
Nice.
Christie.
Yeah, go Christie.
He then frees Cam and she tries to make him run or at least hide, but he's like, dude,

(47:09):
the safest place for me right now is next to you because you have blazing back.
This thing I never heard about till a month ago.
Right.
So they go through the camp and they fight the garm alongside the Cal Bernans and other
summer landers.
So the Cal Bernans remember are essentially the mercenary army that Falcon hired to help
him retake wintergrag.

(47:31):
But we don't know where that is because we don't have a map.
Right.
So at some point in the phrase, she does find Falcon again and he's finally fighting, but
he decides that he doesn't look like he needs any help and they leave him alone.
At the end of the battle, instead of leaving, Cam realizes that she actually needs to convince
her brother's forces to join winter's men to fight off the rest of the ice king if they

(47:52):
have a chance at winning.
So when she goes to her brother, Falcon tries to intimidate Cam again into giving him the
sword by targeting Christie, but she says, look, if you kill Christie, then I'll just
level this entire camp and we can be done with it.
So he tries to call her bluff and orders the archers to fire, but she uses the sword to
muster to shield and that shield turns into a wall of fire that she pushes outward toward

(48:18):
the people who fired at her.
And she tells her brother, quote, I meant to offer you a chance to make amends to recover
some part of honor that you threw away, but if death is your choice, then death it will
be.
Which I did like that line, but it also definitely felt, but this should have been with her dad

(48:40):
more so than Falcon, I think.
Yeah, because Falcon wasn't the one that beat her almost half the death to make her winter
or marry winter, right?
Like, right?
He was like, Falcons, Falcons is sniveling brat, but like, I don't know.
He's not the problem.
No, I mean, not, I mean, he is a problem, but he's not the main problem.

(49:02):
Exactly.
I also like, this is a good example of like how badass Cam can be.
And I want to root for that side, but it's just tough because it's so inconsistent.
Like this is, this is one example where she's like in charge of herself.
But before where she was like, she met her brother and then she got knocked out.
I'm like, what, you weren't prepared.
Okay.
You weren't working back like nothing.

(49:23):
Okay.
And the consistency is really a problem.
Yeah.
So after she says that, the leader of the mercenaries laughs and says that he likes her.
And so she's like, okay, cool, I can work with this.
And she starts to negotiate with him.
They end up agreeing that his army will join her in exchange for the opportunity for his
men to court winter and summer ladies since their society is in great need of women.

(49:47):
They also promise goods in exchange for this service as well.
But that settled, she turns back to her brother and offers him the chance to fight for her
or die.
And he chooses to fight for her.
She then offers the same to the remaining summer men and it's unclear how many of those
joined her or how many of them she slaughters in cold blood.
I just don't know why she would trust him.

(50:08):
No, but I, that's, that's the preference, honestly.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't know why she would trust him either.
It's stupid.
So back with winter, who is restless in his tent as they travel to get his mind off of
whether or not Cam is true to him, he goes for a walk in the woods alone.
He finds Rhaeka who tells him that Cam has betrayed him.

(50:28):
At first winter doesn't believe her, so she tells him to ask the wolves and as he does,
we switch back to Cam only to see that they've broken camp and she and her brother are riding
side by side having an absolutely inane conversation.
Brother, show me that through the wolves vision.
I, yeah, I don't need to see any of that, any of that.
I certainly don't want to hear what the fuck they're talking about.

(50:48):
Like.
Nope.
I'm just going to say that I'm going to be very cautious because we go immediately back
to winter and that illustrates exactly what the wolves tell winter is happening.
And this strikes winter very hard because it at on surface level looks like Cam has
betrayed Falcon because he doesn't have any of the context about what the fuck just happened.
So he's like grieving and Rhaeka encourages him to embrace the ice heart in order to punish

(51:13):
her.
Winter can't think straight and he finds himself frozen inside and out.
And at that point, Rhaeka welcomes him as the ice king.
Okay.
And this is the part where I'm just like not a follow up like Rhaeka is such a blind spot
for him and we never really resolve that because like she just shows out of up out of nowhere

(51:33):
and he knows that Cam told him that she's the one that attacked Cam.
So like why is he listening to her at all?
Why not kill her on site?
I would have like come on.
Yeah.
It's just so annoying.
Like he's he's he's not using his frontal cortex very well.

(51:56):
Not at all.
And I just the blind spot for her doesn't make any sense.
Like if you had convinced me that he owed her some loyalty or they like I'm gonna know
that they're friends but like give me more than that.
Like did she save his life in NAM?
Like what is happening?
I saved his life in NAM.

(52:18):
Okay.
So back to Cam and they've come upon some kind of valley that lets them see the entirety
of the ice king's army and it's huge.
It includes frozen ice thralls of humans, wolves and bears as well as Garm and then there
are 80 frost giants as well.
As she looks at the enemy line, Cam sees a tall mounted figure come into view and she
recognizes that as winter.

(52:39):
We learn that he has a crown of ice on his head and coldness in his eyes.
And on top of that, Rekha is by his side and I'm just like brother.
So he is the ice king.
Who's the fucking ice king?
Rekha's I thought she was the ice king.
I'm so confused.
So Cam is writing next to the leader of the mercenaries who is constantly hitting on her
and actually that sounds creepy but it's pretty funny.

(53:01):
It's really funny and I I did have a great time with this part.
He single-handedly almost convinced me to read the next book.
Exactly.
Because it's gonna be about him.
I know I I'm still a little on the fence but I'm still pretty mad about it.
Yeah same.
But I did enjoy him a lot.

(53:23):
So Falcon gives the signal to charge and the two armies engage in battle.
As they do, Cam's in uses her weather gifts to summon a storm and blazing to amplify her
power.
She uses this to try to thin the guards around winter slash the ice king slash Rurjak.
He thwarts this storm by using his own powers and ends up coming for her directly.

(53:44):
Some of the mercenaries in Christie try to defend Cam but they are all swept to the side
and specifically Christie is thrown against a tree and it says that he doesn't get up
again and fam Christie dies.
He must die.
The only explanation is that Christie is gone and we just never go back to him.
Like for all we know he's still sitting at the base of that tree.
I'm just like I'm getting better.

(54:06):
I'm getting better really.
So winter and Cam engage in sword fight and somehow Cam is able to do that for a little
bit.
Okay.
I don't know how she learned that shit.
I know right?
At least briefly but she's quickly disarmed and blazing goes like flying across the field.
So she summons all of her power in a storm and channels the lightning through her hands

(54:28):
as she presses them to winter's chest before he can actually strike her down.
The contact pushes them both apart and Cam crawls over to winter's now lifeless form.
As she weeps over him she tells him that she loves him again and again.
As she rests her head on his chest she hears a faint heartbeat and has hope.
She kisses him and breathes into his mouth and he wakes up.

(54:48):
When he wakes up at first he's happy to see her but then he remembers everything that
happened and he accuses her of betraying him but she says over and over again that she
would never do that and that she loves him.
The Ice King starts to take over again.
She begs him to resist but they're interrupted by Rekha who basically shows up and is like
time to die bitch.

(55:08):
I'm like Rekha come on man.
Rekha go home.
Go home.
No one invited you.
What are you here?
She tells Cam that she will be the Ice King's queen.
Oh my god.
And they start to fight over winter which is the grossest thing I've ever seen in my entire
life.
It's so gross.

(55:29):
Cam reacts and uses her weather gifts with blazing that she somehow got back in her hand
and cuts Rekha in half with a beam of lightning which is kind of metal.
This is really metal except that I don't understand how she got blazing back.
Yeah, no there is definitely some consistency like logistical errors in this book and that's
one of them.
But that's a good way for Rekha to go out.

(55:50):
Yeah.
So that's great.
Rekha's gone but winter is still armed and now the leader of the mercenaries is there
with one of those ceremonial spears and he throws it directly at winter to save Cam.
But she puts herself bodily in front of winter to save him and so the spear hits her instead.

(56:13):
As winter tries to keep Cam conscious the thralls are like all around them are melting
and it's unclear whether that's because of Cam's sacrifice because that melted winter's
heart or because Rekha is dead.
But also Cam, or winter is now like no longer mad at Cam because she like gave her life

(56:37):
for his.
Because like she was clearly actually telling the truth the whole time.
Right.
And this is what I was talking about earlier like this is the success criteria for this
book like she has to give her life up for him to believe that she's loyal to him.
Like it's not the baby thing.
So like the baby is just like an also ran I guess.

(57:02):
Yeah.
That's why he was so mad like she doesn't need to be pregnant because even if you wanted
to wait for this to be the moment fine.
But come on.
But then just make this the moment you know.
Yeah.
Also, how does how does her getting hit with the ice spear not kill the baby?

(57:25):
Okay.
That's the other thing.
So she gets hit with the ice spear and I don't know where on her body but somehow that's
not the worst injury that the worst injury is that the ice spear is like causing her
to freeze over.
And so they pull out this spear and like that wound is there but there's not a concern
about that.

(57:46):
There's not a concern about like her freezing.
So they put blazing literally next to her because it's a hot fire sword and that warms
her back up next to her and she's fine and she's fine.
Girl, I was so I read this part a couple of times.
I'm like what is happening here?
It was such a cop out.

(58:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good way to put it.
So yeah, so winter's holding her, she's thawing right and she in winter says to her quote,
I don't have words enough to describe how much I love you and cams a little conscious
and tells him to try which I love.

(58:28):
I did love that.
And so he does and he says some like love words and then that's where the book ends
and then we have an epilogue.
Which I didn't need.
I didn't need this epilogue.
So in this epilogue, Christy is nowhere to be seen which leads me to believe that he's
dead.
But you didn't mention him.

(58:50):
Worse than that.
Exactly.
Not a tear to be seen for her companion Christy.
No, her only friend who was also basically a servant.
What a cold hearted bitch.
So the other things that happened in this epilogue is that a blindfolded cam is being
led by winter to the atrium.

(59:11):
She's very pregnant and it's been six months since Rojak's defeat.
We learned that the mercenaries were paid and winter isn't fighting the ice heart anymore
and people are generally happy except for Christy who's dead.
When cam opens her eyes, she finds that the-
So for Christy that everyone forgot about.
When cam opens her eyes, she finds the atrium has been transformed into a conservatory with

(59:32):
all of the plans from her home so that it will remind her of summerly in her new home.
Not only that but it's modeled after her mother's sky garden from that one gardening journal
from the beginning of the book I guess?
Question mark?
Okay.
Okay.
We learned that winter stores some of the ice sculptures that he had, they're just
somewhere else now.
So he's like sharing his space.

(59:54):
Why not use magic to have them both there combined?
That would be much more symbolic and beautiful.
Oh, I love that so much.
Yeah.
But no, you just put his sculptures in like a shed.
He's like fuck my joy, you're more important.
Yeah.

(01:00:14):
So then her sisters are also there and they plan to stay until after she gives birth and
when asked if she's happy cam tells winter, quote, it's perfect.
It's everything I could ever have hoped for.
You're everything I could have ever hoped for and that's how the book ends and fine
whatever, happily ever after, but her sisters are shitty people and I would not want them

(01:00:35):
around me.
Her sisters don't deserve to be there.
Like cool, I'm great.
We have a little tied into a bow.
I'm so happy for them even though I don't think they've had more conversations or actually
like each other, but her sisters need to get the fuck out.
Truly, like they did nothing for her when she was under the thumb of her father being
abused constantly.

(01:00:56):
Even if she wasn't being abused physically, she was being abused mentally and emotionally.
And then she got carted off by her new husband and they didn't even fucking write to her.
They didn't try to get like I just, I want a little bit more like it feels so one sided.
Like it feels like cam loves the fuck out of them and they're just like, oh puppy.

(01:01:20):
You know, it kind of feels like Farah and her like a loyalty to her sisters.
Like they did nothing for her.
I mean cam's sisters aren't that bad, but they're pretty bad.
Yeah, I mean cam's sisters are essentially like a bunch of elanes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So like why are they there?
Why are they going to be there for the next three months?
Why do you want them there for your child?

(01:01:40):
Why do you want them there at all?
Anyway, let's get into some ratings.
Liz, why don't you talk to us about the spice level?

(01:02:01):
How do we do there?
We will give the spice level a two.
We do get a lot of spice, but it's all the exact same scene.
It's all very rushed.
It's all very vanilla.
There's not a lot of like time spent or communication and really that it comes out of the communication
I think primarily because like we're fine with vanilla and boring, but they don't, they

(01:02:26):
have this animal magnetism, but I don't think they like each other.
So like the chemistry is there, but also not.
And so even though we get a lot of it, none of it really hits what we want.
Like I can't forget it happened at all.
Yeah, I agree.
And I mean, for as much of it that happens in this book, I just, I wouldn't even say

(01:02:49):
that this is like a particularly smutty book.
It's just, I think I'm just not into like that kind of late nineties, early 2000s style
of smut.
Exactly.
Because it feels like closed, it's like door cracked.
Like it might have been closed door.
Right.
Like you just see a sliver of moving bodies or something like that.

(01:03:09):
Exactly.
Like those blankets are moving.
Yeah, I agree.
It didn't do it for me.
That takes us into writing style, which we gave a three.
And I think this comes down to a couple of things.
I'm going to say three things.
So the first one is editing.
We've mentioned a couple of times that this book would have benefited from like a heavy

(01:03:32):
edit.
It's 594 pages long.
That's almost 600 pages.
Like easily you could have cut 200 pages from this.
Like we didn't need to see so many of the day to day scenes.
We also didn't need to see like basically any of the Christie plotline because he was
so unceremoniously done away with.
Like I really think that this book would have been a much better product if it was much

(01:03:54):
shorter.
Yes, definitely.
The second thing is the switching back and forth between perspectives was very confusing,
at least in the Kendall format because there wasn't a clean break every single time.
And so that was just like not well executed.
Yes, that was the biggest thing for me, I think.
Yeah.
And then the third one is just the logistics were kind of sloppy sometimes.

(01:04:19):
Like we specifically called out at the end like how did she get blazing back in her hand?
But there were a couple of other times that I'm not even sure if we explicitly called
them out where it was like they'd be sitting and then they were standing or you know, somebody
was in the room and then they weren't in the room, like that kind of thing.
And that's just distracting, frankly.
Yeah.
It just takes away from what's happening.

(01:04:39):
It's very confusing.
Yeah.
So moving into, so did I say that we gave it a three?
Yeah.
Okay, good.
So moving into quality of storytelling, Liz, how did we rate that?
Did you hear that cat that just screamed at me?
No.
Okay, good.
It might be on the mic.

(01:05:00):
She just sat in front of my computer and yelled at me.
Okay.
Sorry.
So for quality of storytelling, we both also gave this, stop yelling at me, for quality
of storytelling, we also both gave this a three, probably pretty clear.
There's just a lot of inconsistency in the plot and a lot of really major plot points
that just don't make sense.

(01:05:21):
Like the whole eyes, heart, Rory Jack, Reka, which is really like the second primary plot,
right?
Like after their miscommunication love story didn't make any sense.
Yeah.
It didn't make any sense.
And then there's multiple things like that.
Like the whole political landscape of it doesn't make any sense, which are things that matter,

(01:05:42):
right?
Like their primary world building plot points to not be explained was just very distracting.
Like yeah.
And we could forgive a lot of that if you had given us the smut, but you didn't give us
the smut, so therefore I can't forgive it.
Right.
Very well said.
There you go.
Yeah.

(01:06:03):
So I guess that leads us into do we recommend it?
And I'm going to say yes with reservations.
Yeah.
I literally like my brain goes, do you recommend it?
Yes.
Question mark?
Because like no feels harsh.
Like I did read at the top of my lungs in this book, which to me says that it was entertaining,

(01:06:24):
right?
And if you're reading, you want to be entertained.
So I would say, you know, for some audiences, it is the right book.
Exactly.
I certainly didn't dread reading it.
I mean, there was one part that we called out that I wanted to eat my phone across the
room.
Right.
But beyond that, I was intrigued.
I'm disappointed in the ending, but I'm also not surprised by the ending.

(01:06:46):
So like that's also fine too, I guess.
Yeah.
Like the ending was like saccharine sweet, right?
But I was not really expecting anything else.
So here we are.
Exactly.
And so the fact that I wasn't like disappointed is even a strong word because like that's
where I thought it was going to end.

(01:07:06):
I just didn't want it.
Right.
I am whelmed.
I am whelmed.
Neither under nor over.
Just curled.
All right, fam.
Those are our thoughts on the Winter King by C.L.
Wilson.
Thank you as always for joining us on this journey, especially this one because I know
it was long and probably like some of the episodes were together, but if you made it

(01:07:30):
to the end, we really appreciate you.
Let us know what you think on the socials.
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and Goodreads at Spice Readers Pod.
And if you like our podcast and you want more content, especially if you want to continue
the SJM series, join us on Patreon where we release those books and you get an extra
episode every other week.
So that's all for now.

(01:07:51):
Until next time, we'll see ya.
Bye.
Bye.