April 8, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, BASF Senior Technical Service Representative Mark Storr joins us to dive into the crucial topic of managing herbicide resistance, focusing on the proper use of PPO and MTZ herbicides to ensure effective weed control and protect crop yields.
Key takeaways:
- Understanding the role of PPO and MTZ herbicides in weed control
- Discussing the resistance challenges faced with PPO and MTZ herbicides
- Best practices for herbicide application to avoid crop damage
- The impact of tillage practices and residue on PPO herbicide performance
- Why PPOs and MTZ herbicides are still a valuable tool despite weed resistance issues
Disclaimer:
Liberty, Outlook , Zidua, Zidua PRO , Poncho Votivo Precise, Endura , Revytek, Fastac CS, ILEVO , Vault IP Plus , Relenya , Priaxor , Liberty ULTRA , are registered trademarks of BASF. Nemasphere, Zorina and Voraxor are trademarks of BASF. Enlist, Enlist One, Enlist Duo, and Enlist E3 are registered trademarks of Corteva Agriscience LLC. The transgenic event in Enlist E3 soybeans is jointly developed and owned by Corteva Agriscience LLC and M.S. Technologies, L.L.C.
Xitavo is a registered trademark of MS Technologies and exclusively distributed by BASF. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners and use of any such trademark does not imply any affiliation with or endorsement by its owner.
Always read and follow label directions. Before mixing components, always conduct a compatibility jar test. Always consult respective product labels for specific mixing instructions. The most restrictive label applies. Fastac CS is a restricted use pesticide. Nemasphere, Zorina, and Voraxor are not registered and not available for sale. This information is provided for educational purposes only and is not intended to promote the sale of this product. Any sale of this product after registration is obtained shall be based solely on the EPA approved product label, and any claims regarding product safety and efficacy shall be addressed solely by the label. The views expressed by BASF employees and Guest are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of BASF. Grow Smart is a registered trademark of BASF. Copyright 2025 BASF Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Spilling the Beans, the podcast that
spills the secrets to unlockingyour soybean farm's full
potential.
Every Tuesday, your hosts, billBackus and Jeff Mueller, dive
into expert strategies andinnovative solutions that will
help you boost your yields andmaximize your returns.
Whether you're a seasonedgrower or new to soybean farming
, we're here to help you succeed.
Let's get started.
(00:22):
We're here to help you succeed.
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello and welcome to another edition of Spilling the
Beans.
I'm Jeff Mueller and I'm BillBackus.
And thanks again for joining usas we dive into the world of
soybeans, covering varioustopics and providing insights to
the soybean industry.
Bill, how you been doing.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Oh, it's April and getting a lot of seed ready to
go and, man, I think burndownsare going on and prep's going on
and you know last minuteanhydrous is going on and you
know we'll be seeing plantersrolling here shortly and I
anticipate some going next week.
So we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely Same going on here.
You know was able to get thefirst planting in for the early
soybean planting date demo, soalready got some beans in the
ground.
Had a couple of people give mea side eye when they saw us out
there putting them in the ground, but you know it's for testing
purposes.
So, yeah, so you know we've wediscussed a lot.
(01:17):
You know we've talked.
You know we talked to BrettWorsma here a few weeks ago and
you know we talked about a lotabout burndowns, about, you know
, getting some things out there.
Maybe it's fall burndown, maybeit's spring, and just kind of
what some of the winter annualsand things take from us.
In December, If you remember, wetalked with Brady Kepler, we
talked with uh, uh, can't eventhink the other guys' names
(01:40):
right there, but we talked tothree, three of our tech service
uh, jared ross, camp was one ofthem three of our tech service
individuals and they and theycall them, I believe and when,
anyway, we discussed a lot about, um, weed control, we talked
about pre-emergent, we talkedabout post-emergent corn and
soybeans and some of the thingsthat we take on from there.
But you know one thing that wedeal with and we're getting more
(02:02):
of it because, as we had hadthe conversations previously,
you know we get into no-till,we're doing less tillage out
there.
We get more.
Weeds have become harder tocontrol, harder to kill.
We're getting more resistance,whether it's from applications
maybe not being the best, maybethe rates not being the best,
mother nature being undefeated,doing what she does all the time
from that standpoint.
So today we really want todiscuss a little bit with our
(02:24):
guest today is discuss theimportance of herbicide
resistant management and we'regoing to really focus on two
particular modes of actions PPOs, group 14s, and metribuzin,
group 5s, and we want to sharesome of the best practices to
help with maintaining thateffective weed control.
So, again, as we said, wetalked with Brett a few weeks
ago, Brett Worsma a few weeksago on some of the best
(02:44):
management practices for cornand soybeans, and today we're
going to focus on these twomodes of actions and their
potential and some of thewatchouts we want to do from
there.
Now, Bill, I know you've done alot of testing on some of those
metribuzin and then with ourtolerance of our Zetavo
varieties, with those.
But you know you've been prettyvocal about those two
(03:07):
components of there.
So you know you always got anice little story time for us,
so why don't you give us alittle story today?
All right Sounds good, jeff.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
So, yeah, actually our guest Mark Storrs, our guest
here today.
So Mark and I and you know someother people on our team, if
you will, jeff several years agowe kind of came up with, hey,
we need to really get some ideason how a lot of these varieties
are interacting with theseherbicides that we're using.
So really think about, you knowthe PPOs, you know the group
(03:36):
14s and the metribusines and thegroup fives.
You know how do they interactwith soybean varieties and how
they interact with you know ie,alevo, I mean that sort of thing
.
We get a lot of questions onthat too.
So we're going to dive intothat a little bit today.
So what I do with Mark andbiologists there at our storage
research farm up by Storage City, we've got a 70 acre field
there roughly about.
(03:57):
I would say it's about an acreto two acres to three acres
We'll just call it two acres formath here today.
Roughly we've got that in theDes Moines low but very low area
where we've got a very high pHas well.
So I also do our IDC screenthere on soybean varieties.
But we have an area of thatthat's not quite as hot.
So we decided to go ahead andrun across the rows.
(04:19):
We plant the rows north andsouth and we're spraying east
and west.
We're spraying different ratesof different PPOs, we're
spraying different rates ofdifferent metribuzin based
concoctions, if you will, andpremixes that we're doing.
So what we're finding is thereare very distinct differences,
basically in the soybeangenetics and how they respond to
(04:42):
that extra genetics and howthey respond to you know that
extra if you get an overlap orif you have something like that,
or if you have to use a higherrate or you had something.
That's just a variety that'sjust not very tolerant to
certain PPOs, especially PPOsfinding more of that than we are
in the metric using.
You know, at this date thisyear moving forward, actually I
have I have 96 entries thatwe'll be planting here in a
(05:05):
couple weeks.
We have of that I think off thetop of my head it's roughly
about 60 of those are actuallygoing to be experimental class
for our class of 27.
So we're doing a lot of work totry and understand and sort out
the men and the boys, if youwill, basically in our lineup to
make sure we understand what wehave Because, knowing forward,
(05:26):
going forward, we're going tohave a lot more challenges with
the weeds.
We're going to make sure thesevarieties, you know, basically
can withstand everything thatwe're doing.
So with that, you know, I'll goahead and bring Mark Storr
basically in.
And Mark Storr is our BASFSenior Technical Service Rep for
Eastern Anchorage, iowa.
He grew up on a farm inPocahontas County here in Iowa.
He holds a Bachelor of Scienceand a Master's in Ag from Iowa
(05:49):
State University, there in thegreat city of Ames, iowa.
Prior to entering the ag chemindustry, mark taught high
school ag for five years innortheast Iowa.
He worked eight years for IowaState University Extension
Service in Palo Alto County.
He entered TSR with AMSAI backin 1995, good old pursuit days
(06:10):
and then joined BASF in NorthCarolina in 2000 as a tech
marketing manager.
He had responsibilities for allof the BASF US corn products.
So he returned to Iowa in 2003,and he's been here since we're.
His primary focus is in cornand soybean production here in
the state.
So, mark, welcome, a lot ofgood stuff and thanks for all
your service to BASF and allyour years.
So keep up the great work andagain, welcome.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So anything to say yeah, thanks for joining us.
So Pocahontas County, whatexactly?
What town was Pocahontas County?
Because I used to live inPocahontas County, because I
used to live in PocahontasCounty a long time ago.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Yeah, well, a lot of people.
I went to Lorenz Marathon HighSchool the local postal address
was small town of Havelock and Iactually went to what you call
a rail sighting today, Went toschool in a town called Ware
W-A-R-E.
So a lot of the people used tosay, well, where's Ware?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
right, so I used to live over a few miles away from
Plover on a farm out there.
So I have frequented that barin Havelock a few times.
So I was thirsty after workingin the field.
So anyway, thanks for joiningus today.
Pocahontas County I always lovebringing that up because I
(07:31):
always think about the town ofPocahontas.
You go through and there's thebig statue of Pocahontas there,
so it's hard to miss from thatstandpoint.
So, mark, today we made thecomment we're going to talk
about some with PPOs and we'regoing to talk about metribuzin,
but we're going to start outwith ppo.
So again, so the question Ihave is you know what is ppo?
Because we hear the acronymit's ppo.
(07:52):
You know how does it work, youknow what are the common names
and I think about it in my mind.
I mean, is that sound?
Is that like a bunch of usgetting together having some
beers, eating a bunch ofgizzards and wings, and then,
you know, the next morning it'sa pretty powerful odor.
What does PPO stand for?
Because you hear that fromeverybody.
But what does it really standfor?
What's it do, I guess?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Well, it's an abbreviation for an acronym for
an enzyme, protofirinogenoxidase.
So you know why we call it PPO.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yes, I do genoxidase, so you know why we call it PPO.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
But basically this enzyme in the plant is
responsible for producing cellmembrane.
So these, historically thegroup 14s, are considered the
burners right, becauseessentially when we kill weeds
with group 14 herbicides thesymptoms are bronzing, they
(08:47):
basically bleed out, we'rebursting cell walls and they
lose all their cell sap.
And that's what is responsiblefor killing of the weeds.
It is contact.
These are not systemicherbicides but they've been used
for a long time.
They go quite a ways back.
(09:09):
They were probably saved byglyphosate because, if you think
about it, these were theprimary broadleaf post-emerge
weed control that we used in thewell even into the early 90s.
And that's the time when theALSs Bill you mentioned Pursuit
(09:30):
a part of my background.
The ALS resistance came intothe notion at the time in
Waterhemp, and so we were usingPPOs generally to control
ALS-resistant pigweed speciesand then we were pushing them to
the limit, okay, and then alongcame glyphosate.
(09:51):
We probably would havewidespread PPO resistance had
not glyphosate arrived on thescene when it did, because we
were leaning very heavily on notonly the group 14s but also the
post-grasp materials.
But you mentioned, jeff, somenames that people will probably
be familiar with.
You know really kind of.
(10:15):
Group 14s are an interestinggroup.
You primarily probably think ofthem as post-emerge okay, and
some of the key players overhistory.
If you remember, blazer thencalled Ultra Blazer.
We still use products likeCobra Flexstar for example.
These are commonly usedover-the-top post-emerge
herbicides.
(10:35):
But then there's a whole othergroup of PPOs that are primarily
used in the soil.
They have better soil activitythan post activity or they may
have too much post activity thatdon't allow the use over the
top.
And so these would be the thingsthat are kind of unique, and
sharpen, for example from BSF,would be one of the key players
(10:58):
in here.
But also products like Valorand Authority fit in.
And then even within thepost-emerge arena, you know we
think of the Cobra Flexstar, forexample, as being pretty
broad-spectrum broad-leaves andthey generally are pretty decent
on large-seeded broad-leavesbut they fail miserably on
(11:19):
Lamb's Quarter for example, butoverall they're pretty good.
But then there's a subgroup ofthose post-product products,
things like AIM, cadet Resource.
So those are unique PPOherbicides that they're not
really very broad spectrum atall.
If you're using those productsyou're probably looking at, I
would say in the corn belt, oneweed of interest and it's
(11:42):
probably Velvet Leaf, becausethose products stand out on that
weed but they really are notvery effective on a lot of the
other post broadleaf weeds, uh,but it's an interesting class of
chemistry uh.
They're still valuable, uh, inspite of, uh weed resistance
issues.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So, mark, I mean yeah .
So if you think about weedresistance speaking of that.
So so what?
What do we have today?
You know, talk the entireMidwest and talk to Iowa
wherever you want to talk.
You know what.
What's resistance to PPO today?
You know, then, and why do westill use PPOs?
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Well, probably the the.
The two big ones would be Koshaand and Waterhemp and you know,
you kind of have your.
You know, maybe the arid partsof the Corn Belt are drier Areas
of the western Corn Belt, wherekochia is obviously a major
pest, and of course waterhempover a lot of the Midwest and as
(12:38):
you move south into Palmer,amaranth country, they're going
to be affected similarly.
But that doesn't mean they'renot still valuable.
As I mentioned, they stillcontrol a host of other
broadleaf weeds but they do havesome great residual.
And again it comes into playhere, with products like Sharpen
(13:00):
and Authority, for example,that better soil activity and
longer lives soil activity.
And it is interesting when youdeal with PPO resistance,
particularly in the amaranthusor pigweed or waterhemp family,
(13:20):
waterhemp family we haveobserved that we have weeds that
are resistant to thosepost-emerge applications of, say
, a product like Cobra orFlexstar, but we're still able
to control them with the PPOsthat are soil-applied things
like Sherpa and Airdor Authority, for example.
So just because you haveherbicide or weed resistance,
you need to take a look at thewhole system and how the
herbicides are utilized.
(13:41):
And so that's where we're stillable to make hay with those
soil pipe and we're actuallyseeing that group of chemistry
grow as a soil residual programas we move forward.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, no, that's some interesting information so we
think about it.
You know you made someinteresting comments.
You know, thinking about wherewe might be with PPOs if
glyphosate didn't come in.
So it really kind of saved it.
So it's kind of interesting,you think how glyphosate kindly
or kind of moved people awayfrom PPOs, but the resistance to
(14:18):
glyphosate has moved peopleback to PPOs or for control from
there.
So there's a lot of them outthere.
You know, like you said youmentioned Valor, you mentioned,
like Zidro.
You know there's a lot of PPOsbeing mixed in.
They bring a lot of benefits tothe table.
We know, adding like an MSOwith them helped get a better
burn down.
But you know, every year, youalways, you always have to hear
(14:39):
that conversation about oh, thisfield, you know, got sprayed
too late, you know, or the beansare starting to crack, you know
, or or over here, you know,what are some of the watchouts
with PPOs you have to be prettyaware of.
Or you know, as as as ourlisteners are here today, like
you know, definitely don't dothis because you probably won't
like the results.
And you know, maybe kind of incorn and soybeans, both.
(15:00):
You know what.
What are some of the watchouts,some of the cautions you would
have with our listeners on onusing some of these PPOs to help
to help minimize damage andmaximize their effect.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, right, well, you bring up a good point.
And I mentioned looking atthroughout history and where the
PPOs fit.
And looking at throughouthistory and where the PPOs fit,
we'd gone away from them whenpursuit hit the market and the
reason was growers did not likeburning the you know bejesus out
of their soybeans.
That's what PPOs are known for.
(15:30):
Unfortunately, the soybeans gotbeat up along with the weeds
and generally it was mostlycosmetic, but it did, you know,
cause some degree of alarm andso that's why people went away
from it until they had to use itagain.
With the advent of ALS,resistance that built in.
But that's still a fact today.
(15:51):
You still have to take thatinto consideration.
With the post-application, lightis extremely important in
activating these herbicides.
They don't work well in thedark.
They're going to be hotter whenwe have very bright, sunny
conditions.
You mentioned additives.
We historically have beenadding methylated seed oil as a
(16:14):
adjuvant to these products forincreased burndown, and also AMS
would be kind of standard usewith the PPO chemistry
post-emerge.
So all those things come intoplay Again.
I really, you know, advisegrowers to not worry about the
post-emerge burn, but there aregetting back to those classes of
(16:36):
chemistry like Authority andSharpen and Valor.
Now you're getting into thezone where you may, you know, be
.
It's just too harsh, and sothat's what we see with products
.
That's why we apply them soilapplied to avoid that risk.
Now, it doesn't mean that theremight be some sensitivities to
some varieties.
We've seen that with Authorityand Sharpen, for example, and we
(17:01):
need to screen our varieties sothat we can share that
information and seed catalogsand seed information so people
can make their best herbicidechoices when purchasing products
products.
(17:21):
But all in all, those would bethe main things that I would
look at from a watch outstandpoint.
Is it's really aboutphytotoxicity or the negative
effects of those herbicides thatpotentially can cause that
injury?
And it's similar.
I mean, it doesn't matter ifit's Sharpen or Authority.
You're going to see a burn justlike you sprayed it.
Post emerge, the symptoms areare very much alike.
(17:43):
Uh, that you're gonna see that.
Uh, that, what we call necrosis.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, I will add one one, one on to this one and then
I'll turn it over to bill for.
The next question is um.
You know we talked with brett afew weeks ago and we were
talking about you know how we'vegone a lot away from tillage,
full tillage to no till, striptill, minimum till, whatever,
whatever we want to say Um, canthe tillage type or the residue
out there when PPOs are appliedcan it have can?
(18:12):
Can?
Can that have a difference onhow it um controls, meaning if
you're a full tillage versus ifyou have a lot of residue out
there and you're spraying a PPOout there.
Can there be a challenge thatcan happen with any of that,
that you might see some damagemore in one versus the other?
I don't know if that question'sreally making a whole lot of
sense, but can it make adifference on your tillage
(18:34):
operation you're utilizing forpotential damage you can see
with the PPO?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Yeah, sure it definitely is a part of it.
It really has to do with thewater solubility and the
herbicides you're using.
And again, this is primarilydealing with the soil applied
materials.
So think of Sharpen and orAuthority or Valor, for example.
What we see typically withSharpen, if you get a lot of
(18:58):
water immediately after planting, even if you're in a no-till
situation, you still created aseed furrow.
So there's going to be aninherent you know track for
water to run.
It's always going to take thepath of least resistance.
So if you can actually washtreated or soil or water down
(19:18):
into that seed trench and youget inhibition of the actual
chemistry within that seed, thatsoybean is probably not going
to like that, it's not going tokill it.
But you may see that responseafter the fact when that soybean
plant emerges.
Now that's because Sharpen hasgood water solubility, which
(19:39):
obviously helps it control weedsas well.
But then you deal with productslike Authority and they're not
quite the same way.
Or Valor can do this as well.
They're less water soluble andbeans come out of the ground and
then you get a pounding rainand it splashes up on those
little bean.
You know the unifoliates, andthen they burn.
(20:03):
So it's actually like you'vesprayed them post-emerge and all
you've done is simply bouncethat material off the top of the
soil.
So it doesn't really matter ifit's no-till or tillage, unless
you worked it in, if youincorporated these products but
I wouldn't recommend it becausethey work better in a zone right
(20:24):
on the soil surface.
That's how they're going tocontrol weeds, so you can
minimize this problem byincorporating it, but then
you're going to compromise yourlevel of weed control.
So we would always suggest thatthese products should be
sprayed on the soil surfaceeither pre or after planting,
but again keeping in mind somemay not be allowed to be sprayed
(20:46):
once those beans pop out of theground, for example, and corn
as well.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Mark, yeah, mark.
So you know we've talked a lotabout PPOs here and as we think
it through you know the lastcouple minutes here it sounds
like you know, oh, maybe I don'twant to spray PPOs.
They sound like they're goingto damage my crop quite a bit,
but at the end of the daythey're very effective, right,
they work really really well.
So as we think about the future, we think about, you know, basf
(21:13):
.
We can talk about what we'redoing here, kind of our pipeline
.
You know future corn products,something new you know we got
out this year I think you mightwant to talk about for corn.
And then I think you knowwhatever you want to talk about
on future soybeans and for youknow, new product for soybeans,
new product, new traits, that'scoming, you can mention that as
well.
So wherever you want to go withthis kind of pipeline
(21:33):
discussion, kind of, what do yousee for the future of PPOs with
BISF?
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Sure, well, as you mentioned, we're kind of already
exploring the future with aproduct like Sertain, where
we've basically launched thathere a year ago and it's an
encapsulated form of the Sharpen, so it does away with the
concern for injury post-emerge,as long as we're reasonable
about it.
And basically Sertain is aproduct for use in corn.
(22:04):
It's a pre-emerge herbicidecombination of Zidua and Sharpen
, but again, sharpen being anencapsulated form so we can put
it on prior to planting orpre-emerge or even early post.
Now it has no burndown activity.
That's the downside.
By encapsulating the Sharpen welose the burndown ability or
(22:27):
the attributes that thatherbicide has.
But what this does allows uswas application flexibility and
so once that corn comes out ofthe ground, starts to spike, we
say up to three leaf corn we aresafe to spray post-emerge with
a product like Sertain.
And you're still going to getyou know the great residual
(22:48):
activity and you mentioned.
You know why do we still usethem as this crop injury of
concern, these broad leaves thatare.
You know we can't let them getaround to the ground and that's
where we're almost forced.
Or you know we can't let themget around the ground and that's
where we're almost forced, or,you know, our hands are forced
into using these products, uh tohelp control, uh those weeds
and keeping them from emerging.
(23:09):
Uh, down the road, as youmentioned, we've got some
exciting things coming.
There's still a few years off.
Uh, we actually have kind of asecond generation GRIP14 PPO
coming to the market very soon.
They're going to see enhancedburndown over what we have today
In the future, as you take itout even further.
We have some PPOs that arecontrolling PPO-resistant weeds,
(23:33):
and so I'll let the scientistsexplain how that is possible,
but that's really exciting.
And we're also getting somegrass control.
You know, historically PPOs arenot considered to be herbicidal
on grass, but we've seen somecrazy things.
So, obviously definitelylooking forward to that.
(23:55):
And, as you mentioned, traittechnology, if we could create a
trait, for example, soybeans,that we could incorporate in the
soybean genome, that wouldallow, you know, the soybean to
not be affected by this PPO modeof action, wouldn't that be
something?
And, bill, maybe you have somethoughts that you could share.
(24:18):
I think you may know we'reworking on it, aren't?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
we yeah, yeah, that's exciting thing.
Yeah, ppo trait with soybeans.
We'll be working with that andstacking on top of our
nemosphere and enlist e3, stackhere, uh, pending regulatory
approval, uh, probably mid 2035somewhere in there.
Ish uh, that, that ballpark, sopretty exciting technology.
And uh, you know there'sh uhthat, that ballpark, so pretty
exciting technology.
And uh, you know there's alsosome, uh some work on corn being
(24:41):
done too, uh, for some PPOstuff.
So that's kind of kind ofunique and some different things
that we're looking at.
So pipeline's pretty full,pretty excited about that that
as well.
So, yeah, good stuff, goodstuff.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, no.
So we, you know we hit a lot onPPOs because that's probably
one of the most popular onesthat's being used in a lot of
areas right now.
We said we were going to talk alittle bit about Metribuzin.
So, mark, can you just give usa little bit of an idea of what
is Metribuzin and again, justlike we did with PPOs, how does
it work?
And are there some common namesout there that maybe they don't
know it's Metribuzin, but they?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
know it as this particular name out there, and
what that value of thatmetribuzin brings to being
utilized out there.
Sure, jeff, metribuzin, oldchemistry, go back to the 70s
and you'll remember trade names.
Sencor and Lexone would be thetwo primary ones in row crops.
Sencor is still a product butit's not for use in row crops
anymore.
I think they have limited it toturf only.
The product has been genericfor many, many years and it's
(25:44):
actually sold as metribuzin bythat name or they're using the
common name of the herbicide.
There are some other genericnames.
You know Winfield has a productout there called Dimetric.
I hear of that one.
Glory is another one where thegeneric firms handles.
(26:05):
But these would be, they're allgroup fives.
They're light blockers,photosystem II, they're
affecting photosynthesis, sothat makes them cousins to
triazines.
This is a triazinone family,not triazine, but they're
cousins to triazines.
This is a triazinone family,not triazine, but they're
cousins to triazines, and a lotof your listeners probably are
familiar with triazines.
We think of bacterizine, right,another old, established group
(26:27):
of chemistry that we've used foryears and years and years.
So they're different classes ofchemistry but they have the
same mode of action andultimately we have to worry
about resistance with these aswell, because of their age and
endurance.
They also have a group ofwatchouts, I think historically
again they were used, or CINCORwas used a lot in the 70s again
(26:52):
until product-like pursuit camealong and fixed all the problems
that Sencor had.
You know, sencor was a productthat was very subject to getting
moisture to activate Dry years.
It doesn't perform very well.
Huge weakness on the nightshadefamily, which was a common weed
(27:14):
that soybean growers werefacing in the upper Midwest.
Back in the 70s I rememberseeing magazine ads of
purple-stained beans that werecombines plugged with yellow or
black nightshade and it was, youknow, classic.
You know Treflin Senghor was akey program that just didn't
(27:36):
phase it.
And here comes a long productlike Pursuit which wiped it off
and so life was different.
But systemic chemistry it stillhas some use in today's world.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, that's a great point, Bill, real quick before
that.
You know that's actually BlackNightshade, something we're
starting to see more coming inover here in Nebraska.
It's coming back more.
And then, secondly, when yousaid plugged combine, I remember
my dad plugging it and Jeffclimbing into the back of the
Mass C-410 and spending aboutfive hours in there and coming
out with juice all over, and Inever wanted to do it again.
So those were nightmare themass c410 and spending about
five hours in there and comingout with juice all over, and I
(28:11):
never wanted to do it again.
So those were nightmare days.
So, bill, go ahead and take itaway yeah, I'd say I'd same
thing.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I was writing with a customer in a case ih twin rotor
, uh, basically popping up overno, I'm sorry, it was a single
rotor popping up over a hill andall of a sudden bam found that
spot where the sprayer didn'tget and and it was complete
nightshade.
Same thing, just wrappedeverything up, just a mess.
So we spent, you know, becausewe were talking, of course, as
we're riding in the combine andpopped up and over and spent
(28:39):
talking.
So yeah, we spent the next fourhours unwrapping the rotor with
all the stuff that we had inthere.
So, mark, if you think aboutmetribuzin, you think about.
You know you mentionedwatchouts.
So what about resistant weeds,kind of where's the spectrum at
for metribuzin on weedresistance?
You know what are the watchoutsand really, why do we still use
(29:01):
it in soybeans, and primarilysoybeans here?
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Well, as a group five or photo system two, you have
to assume that there might becross-resistance to anything
that is resistant to atrazine,right?
So it goes back to lamb'squarter being one of the earlier
weeds that popped up on thescreen that was resistant to the
(29:26):
triazines, but now thewaterhemp fit into that as well.
So there's just a host ofbroadleaf weeds that are
problematic with the group 5spotentially.
But in spite of that we'restill seeing a fair amount of
activity in a lot of areas, youknow with the product, like
(29:47):
metribuzin on waterhemp, and soit's another nice little mode of
action to throw in there.
It is, as I mentioned, systemic, so it's giving us residual
activity.
It really is not a standaloneand probably never has been.
It needs help, but it lendsitself to being a good tank mix
(30:08):
partner with a lot of products,and so we're seeing it routinely
mixed with, you know, literallyany other pre under the sun,
basically to help bolster thoseresidual programs.
It very long lived in the soil,just like atrazine.
These are products that hangaround a long time and
(30:30):
unfortunately that could be adetriment to us in a lot of
parts of the country as well,which we'll touch on here in a
minute as well, but it still hassome utility and I guess the
biggest thing is just to makesure that you understand the
watchouts with the product andthe rates and how the product
(30:52):
needs to be utilized.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, so the watchouts.
You know we got some high pHs.
I mean anything concern therethat we run into or what are
your concerns with that?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Yeah, that is the primary problem.
Where I grew up we talked aboutPocahontas County and the Des
Moines Lobe, the big area ofnorth central Iowa that is
historically poorly drained, wet, high pH soils, which these are
areas where atrazine we werenever big atrazine users Simply
(31:22):
was carry over and herd oursoybeans.
So a lot of corn growers upthere never knew what atrazine
was if they were rotating tosoybeans.
And Sencor finally fits in thatsame vein.
Even though it's a product foruse in soybeans, it has the same
detrimental effects potentially.
The pH is very important in theavailability of these herbicides
(31:48):
the triazines and the triozineI can't say it Sencor or
metramuzine, but basically thatpH makes it available and is
liable to injure sweat beads.
So the labels will cautionagainst using them in high pH
areas.
And where you do use them, wejust need to cut our rate down
(32:11):
and generally we're looking ataround a third of a pound, at
being that maximum and, as youmentioned, we screen varieties
at Story City in a beautifularea that we have to, and we're
looking at much higher rates.
You know we look up to likefour or five X rates to really
tease out differences in thesesensitive varieties Because
there are big differences ingenetics and what they will
(32:33):
tolerate.
So that's good information andI think we could provide growers
as well, so they can make agood decision when purchasing
their seed.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yeah, so just real quick, you mentioned that.
I would say just reach out toyour local, whoever you know.
Wherever you get your seed from, you know they should have some
knowledge on it.
If they don't push them for it,uh, they have some idea on that
.
So so I would also youmentioned uh kind of earlier on,
there's a bunch of genericsright out there, so so a lot of
companies are coming outsomething new.
(33:02):
Right, it's new because it'sgot you know this different
whatever in it, and some of themare just a generic low race,
low rate of metribuzin, as youstart digging through the label
and you start finding what itactually is in there.
So make sure I guess youunderstand what you have out
there.
That's kind of a comment I hadthere as well.
So, jeff, I'll turn it back toyou.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and I know that's something
that we deal with over here inNebraska.
A challenge with that is thepHs we have and river, river,
valley sands and a lot of thattoo.
So, uh, it can get pretty hotin some of those cases.
So, yeah, that's.
That's great points put outfrom there.
So well, you know, we've hadreally nice discussion.
Ppo and metrobusiness.
(33:40):
Mark, we really thank you fortaking the time today and
joining us.
Um, so we're probably betterneed to wrap this thing up, uh,
for for our audience today.
So I guess what I would say,mark, is there any comments, any
questions, anything you'd liketo finish off with here, before
we let you go, that we didn'tcover or that you'd like the
audience to hear or learn a bitmore about today?
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Well, you know, I would just say, if you're
interested in herbicides,learning more about them, bill
mentioned a big part of theproblem is that growers deal
with trade names of products.
You know companies sell productsthat are, you know, branded.
There's a good document it'sthe Take Action Herbicide
Classification sheet that yourlisteners might want to download
(34:27):
Because it really kind of helpsgo through the different modes
of action.
But maybe more importantly, itlists a lot of those brand names
and even premixes that containit.
So that is the big differenceor the big deal, just like Bill
mentioned.
I mean there's a lot ofconfusion when people they're
buying a product thinking it'ssomething new, and then you find
(34:47):
out it has Metribuzin in it andthen you realize that that's a
product that you used back inthe late 70s and nothing new at
all about it.
It's new because it's acombination with something else,
but it still has the samelimitations.
So that would be just areference I would throw out
there and if folks havequestions, reach out to their
(35:10):
local BSF rep or guys likemyself, your tech service rep or
your local BSF retailer.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Awesome, Awesome.
Well, Mark, thank you for allyour knowledge and information
day.
We really appreciate it,learned a lot and and appreciate
you taking the time to talk tome and build a day.
So, uh, get back to the bar andhave lock here once in a while,
have a beer and uh, and, and,and have a good one.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yep Thanks.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
So Bill again learned a lot um PPOs, Metribuzin, you
know, talked about those two,two things.
Um, you know you don't realizehow much PPO especially is being
used out there, but uh, youknow we heard a lot of good
things from Mark today.
We're just a couple oftake-home points that you got
today that you think gave yousome knowledge and be good
(35:57):
information for some of ourlisteners today.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yeah, no, I always like talking to Mark.
He's full of knowledge and, youknow, always a trip down memory
lane too, right?
So there's just a lot of thingsyou think back and you know
I'll finish with a quick storyas well.
So when I first started retail,uh, one of the first things I
did I was I really just come outof working for, actually, a
company called rumpel lock, uhinternship and do a lot of stuff
(36:21):
with them, did a lot ofresearch plots there, and I said
, hey, I want to do a researchplot, kind of a demo plot, for
all the people you know,customers.
I had, course, what I do I layeverything out and get it all
lined up and, of course, a lotof Blazer, cobra, flexstar, you
name it.
We had all that stuff and, youknow, burnt the heck out of the
beans.
And then you got this plotPursuit was new, looked awesome,
(36:42):
and you know everything wasawesome at that point in time
and of course I'm dating myselfkind of where I was at there at
that point in time.
But you know a lot of neatthings.
You just think about the history.
So I think my point is you gotto understand the history of the
AIs and the modes of actionsthat you have out there and how
to use them and how to integratethem in your system, even today
.
So you know, as we thinkthrough you know that was 30
(37:04):
years ago.
You think through, you know howdo we still use these AIs and
these different modes of actionto incorporate into our complete
system?
You know, and I think aboutthat, I think about the fact
that you know, we have somethings that are PPOs, and PPO
resistant weeds can still becontrolled, and we've got some
new stuff in the pipeline.
So you know, that's theexciting part about it.
(37:25):
And you know then, just lots ofgeneric versions of Metribuzin.
I think that's the big thingout there as well.
So how about you, jeff?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, you know, just because the chemistry is old
does not mean it's still notvaluable or a heavy lifter in
your program.
You know I think about atrazinewhen that came in in the 60s.
You know I still tell you know,a half a pound atrazine still
makes things work pretty darngood.
So I found it interesting toknow a half a pound of atrazine
still makes things work prettydarn good.
So I found it interesting toknow.
(37:53):
You know you think about it.
You forget how we relied on PPOsso much early on and then
glyphosate really took so manythings out of the game and now
we're using the PPOs againbecause the glyphosate isn't
working.
So again, you know it's kind ofwhat we keep hearing.
My biggest take home message iswhat we've been hearing, you
know, when we've talked to anyof the tech service reps or
anybody in the industry and it'scome to with using chemistries
(38:13):
and that is man, it's all aboutmaking sure you're doing things
right have the right setup,using the right nozzles, making
sure the timing's correct, youknow, making sure you're doing
things right, because if youknow you want to kill weeds, the
best time to kill them isbefore they're up, first of all,
and secondly, you've got toapply things correctly, because
(38:36):
if you don't do it correctly,it's not going to work.
And we're spending a lot ofmoney on chemistries and we need
to make sure our dollars go inthe.
We're getting that return oninvest for what we're doing out
there, but, again, a wealth ofknowledge, and I didn't know
that he was in that Havelockarea, which that was kind of
interesting.
I'll have to chat more with himwhen we get on that one.
(38:56):
So, with that being said, Ithink we're going to wrap it up
today.
We learned a lot today andwe're going to hear more from
Mark here in a couple more weeks, talk about a little bit with
charcoal rot.
But, with that being said, toeverybody in our audience today,
thanks for joining us again forthis episode of Spilling the
Beans.
We invite you to download theGrow Smart Live app for more
resources and share this podcastwith other growers.
(39:17):
So, as we always do at the endof our podcast, me and Bill
would like to say thank you andmake it a great day.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Thanks for joining us on Spilling the Beans, where
every episode gets you one stepcloser to maximizing your
soybean profitability.
If you found today's insightsvaluable, subscribe and leave us
a review on your favoriteplatform.
Download the Grow Smart Liveapp for more resources and share
the podcast with other growers.
See you next week with moreexpert tips to help you grow
(39:46):
smarter and achieve the bestyields yet.
Liberty Outlook, Zidua, Zidua,Pro Poncho, Motivo, Precise,
Endura, Rivitec.
We'll see you next time.
Enlist E3 are registeredtrademarks of Corteva Agritians
(40:08):
LLC.
The transgenic event in EnlistE3 Soybeans is jointly developed
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All other trademarks are theproperty of their respective
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Always read and follow labeldirections Before mixing
components.
Always conduct a compatibilityjar test.
(40:29):
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claims regarding product safetyand efficacy shall be addressed
(40:51):
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Welcome to Spilling the Beans, the podcast that
spills the secrets to unlockingyour soybean farm's full
potential.
Every Tuesday, your hosts, billBackus and Jeff Mueller, dive
into expert strategies andinnovative solutions that will
help you boost your yields andmaximize your returns.
Whether you're a seasonedgrower or new to soybean farming
, we're here to help you succeed.
Let's get started.
(00:22):
We're here to help you succeed.
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello and welcome to another edition of Spilling the
Beans.
I'm Jeff Mueller and I'm BillBackus.
And thanks again for joining usas we dive into the world of
soybeans, covering varioustopics and providing insights to
the soybean industry.
Bill, how you been doing.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Oh, it's April and getting a lot of seed ready to
go and, man, I think burndownsare going on and prep's going on
and you know last minuteanhydrous is going on and you
know we'll be seeing plantersrolling here shortly and I
anticipate some going next week.
So we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely Same going on here.
You know was able to get thefirst planting in for the early
soybean planting date demo, soalready got some beans in the
ground.
Had a couple of people give mea side eye when they saw us out
there putting them in the ground, but you know it's for testing
purposes.
So, yeah, so you know we've wediscussed a lot.
(01:17):
You know we've talked.
You know we talked to BrettWorsma here a few weeks ago and
you know we talked about a lotabout burndowns, about, you know
, getting some things out there.
Maybe it's fall burndown, maybeit's spring, and just kind of
what some of the winter annualsand things take from us.
In December, If you remember, wetalked with Brady Kepler, we
talked with uh, uh, can't eventhink the other guys' names
(01:40):
right there, but we talked tothree, three of our tech service
uh, jared ross, camp was one ofthem three of our tech service
individuals and they and theycall them, I believe and when,
anyway, we discussed a lot about, um, weed control, we talked
about pre-emergent, we talkedabout post-emergent corn and
soybeans and some of the thingsthat we take on from there.
But you know one thing that wedeal with and we're getting more
(02:02):
of it because, as we had hadthe conversations previously,
you know we get into no-till,we're doing less tillage out
there.
We get more.
Weeds have become harder tocontrol, harder to kill.
We're getting more resistance,whether it's from applications
maybe not being the best, maybethe rates not being the best,
mother nature being undefeated,doing what she does all the time
from that standpoint.
So today we really want todiscuss a little bit with our
(02:24):
guest today is discuss theimportance of herbicide
resistant management and we'regoing to really focus on two
particular modes of actions PPOs, group 14s, and metribuzin,
group 5s, and we want to sharesome of the best practices to
help with maintaining thateffective weed control.
So, again, as we said, wetalked with Brett a few weeks
ago, Brett Worsma a few weeksago on some of the best
(02:44):
management practices for cornand soybeans, and today we're
going to focus on these twomodes of actions and their
potential and some of thewatchouts we want to do from
there.
Now, Bill, I know you've done alot of testing on some of those
metribuzin and then with ourtolerance of our Zetavo
varieties, with those.
But you know you've been prettyvocal about those two
(03:07):
components of there.
So you know you always got anice little story time for us,
so why don't you give us alittle story today?
All right Sounds good, jeff.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
So, yeah, actually our guest Mark Storrs, our guest
here today.
So Mark and I and you know someother people on our team, if
you will, jeff several years agowe kind of came up with, hey,
we need to really get some ideason how a lot of these varieties
are interacting with theseherbicides that we're using.
So really think about, you knowthe PPOs, you know the group
(03:36):
14s and the metribusines and thegroup fives.
You know how do they interactwith soybean varieties and how
they interact with you know ie,alevo, I mean that sort of thing
.
We get a lot of questions onthat too.
So we're going to dive intothat a little bit today.
So what I do with Mark andbiologists there at our storage
research farm up by Storage City, we've got a 70 acre field
there roughly about.
(03:57):
I would say it's about an acreto two acres to three acres
We'll just call it two acres formath here today.
Roughly we've got that in theDes Moines low but very low area
where we've got a very high pHas well.
So I also do our IDC screenthere on soybean varieties.
But we have an area of thatthat's not quite as hot.
So we decided to go ahead andrun across the rows.
(04:19):
We plant the rows north andsouth and we're spraying east
and west.
We're spraying different ratesof different PPOs, we're
spraying different rates ofdifferent metribuzin based
concoctions, if you will, andpremixes that we're doing.
So what we're finding is thereare very distinct differences,
basically in the soybeangenetics and how they respond to
(04:42):
that extra genetics and howthey respond to you know that
extra if you get an overlap orif you have something like that,
or if you have to use a higherrate or you had something.
That's just a variety that'sjust not very tolerant to
certain PPOs, especially PPOsfinding more of that than we are
in the metric using.
You know, at this date thisyear moving forward, actually I
have I have 96 entries thatwe'll be planting here in a
(05:05):
couple weeks.
We have of that I think off thetop of my head it's roughly
about 60 of those are actuallygoing to be experimental class
for our class of 27.
So we're doing a lot of work totry and understand and sort out
the men and the boys, if youwill, basically in our lineup to
make sure we understand what wehave Because, knowing forward,
(05:26):
going forward, we're going tohave a lot more challenges with
the weeds.
We're going to make sure thesevarieties, you know, basically
can withstand everything thatwe're doing.
So with that, you know, I'll goahead and bring Mark Storr
basically in.
And Mark Storr is our BASFSenior Technical Service Rep for
Eastern Anchorage, iowa.
He grew up on a farm inPocahontas County here in Iowa.
He holds a Bachelor of Scienceand a Master's in Ag from Iowa
(05:49):
State University, there in thegreat city of Ames, iowa.
Prior to entering the ag chemindustry, mark taught high
school ag for five years innortheast Iowa.
He worked eight years for IowaState University Extension
Service in Palo Alto County.
He entered TSR with AMSAI backin 1995, good old pursuit days
(06:10):
and then joined BASF in NorthCarolina in 2000 as a tech
marketing manager.
He had responsibilities for allof the BASF US corn products.
So he returned to Iowa in 2003,and he's been here since we're.
His primary focus is in cornand soybean production here in
the state.
So, mark, welcome, a lot ofgood stuff and thanks for all
your service to BASF and allyour years.
So keep up the great work andagain, welcome.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So anything to say yeah, thanks for joining us.
So Pocahontas County, whatexactly?
What town was Pocahontas County?
Because I used to live inPocahontas County, because I
used to live in PocahontasCounty a long time ago.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Yeah, well, a lot of people.
I went to Lorenz Marathon HighSchool the local postal address
was small town of Havelock and Iactually went to what you call
a rail sighting today, Went toschool in a town called Ware
W-A-R-E.
So a lot of the people used tosay, well, where's Ware?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
right, so I used to live over a few miles away from
Plover on a farm out there.
So I have frequented that barin Havelock a few times.
So I was thirsty after workingin the field.
So anyway, thanks for joiningus today.
Pocahontas County I always lovebringing that up because I
(07:31):
always think about the town ofPocahontas.
You go through and there's thebig statue of Pocahontas there,
so it's hard to miss from thatstandpoint.
So, mark, today we made thecomment we're going to talk
about some with PPOs and we'regoing to talk about metribuzin,
but we're going to start outwith ppo.
So again, so the question Ihave is you know what is ppo?
Because we hear the acronymit's ppo.
(07:52):
You know how does it work, youknow what are the common names
and I think about it in my mind.
I mean, is that sound?
Is that like a bunch of usgetting together having some
beers, eating a bunch ofgizzards and wings, and then,
you know, the next morning it'sa pretty powerful odor.
What does PPO stand for?
Because you hear that fromeverybody.
But what does it really standfor?
What's it do, I guess?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Well, it's an abbreviation for an acronym for
an enzyme, protofirinogenoxidase.
So you know why we call it PPO.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yes, I do genoxidase, so you know why we call it PPO.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
But basically this enzyme in the plant is
responsible for producing cellmembrane.
So these, historically thegroup 14s, are considered the
burners right, becauseessentially when we kill weeds
with group 14 herbicides thesymptoms are bronzing, they
(08:47):
basically bleed out, we'rebursting cell walls and they
lose all their cell sap.
And that's what is responsiblefor killing of the weeds.
It is contact.
These are not systemicherbicides but they've been used
for a long time.
They go quite a ways back.
(09:09):
They were probably saved byglyphosate because, if you think
about it, these were theprimary broadleaf post-emerge
weed control that we used in thewell even into the early 90s.
And that's the time when theALSs Bill you mentioned Pursuit
(09:30):
a part of my background.
The ALS resistance came intothe notion at the time in
Waterhemp, and so we were usingPPOs generally to control
ALS-resistant pigweed speciesand then we were pushing them to
the limit, okay, and then alongcame glyphosate.
(09:51):
We probably would havewidespread PPO resistance had
not glyphosate arrived on thescene when it did, because we
were leaning very heavily on notonly the group 14s but also the
post-grasp materials.
But you mentioned, jeff, somenames that people will probably
be familiar with.
You know really kind of.
(10:15):
Group 14s are an interestinggroup.
You primarily probably think ofthem as post-emerge okay, and
some of the key players overhistory.
If you remember, blazer thencalled Ultra Blazer.
We still use products likeCobra Flexstar for example.
These are commonly usedover-the-top post-emerge
herbicides.
(10:35):
But then there's a whole othergroup of PPOs that are primarily
used in the soil.
They have better soil activitythan post activity or they may
have too much post activity thatdon't allow the use over the
top.
And so these would be the thingsthat are kind of unique, and
sharpen, for example from BSF,would be one of the key players
(10:58):
in here.
But also products like Valorand Authority fit in.
And then even within thepost-emerge arena, you know we
think of the Cobra Flexstar, forexample, as being pretty
broad-spectrum broad-leaves andthey generally are pretty decent
on large-seeded broad-leavesbut they fail miserably on
(11:19):
Lamb's Quarter for example, butoverall they're pretty good.
But then there's a subgroup ofthose post-product products,
things like AIM, cadet Resource.
So those are unique PPOherbicides that they're not
really very broad spectrum atall.
If you're using those productsyou're probably looking at, I
would say in the corn belt, oneweed of interest and it's
(11:42):
probably Velvet Leaf, becausethose products stand out on that
weed but they really are notvery effective on a lot of the
other post broadleaf weeds, uh,but it's an interesting class of
chemistry uh.
They're still valuable, uh, inspite of, uh weed resistance
issues.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So, mark, I mean yeah .
So if you think about weedresistance speaking of that.
So so what?
What do we have today?
You know, talk the entireMidwest and talk to Iowa
wherever you want to talk.
You know what.
What's resistance to PPO today?
You know, then, and why do westill use PPOs?
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Well, probably the the.
The two big ones would be Koshaand and Waterhemp and you know,
you kind of have your.
You know, maybe the arid partsof the Corn Belt are drier Areas
of the western Corn Belt, wherekochia is obviously a major
pest, and of course waterhempover a lot of the Midwest and as
(12:38):
you move south into Palmer,amaranth country, they're going
to be affected similarly.
But that doesn't mean they'renot still valuable.
As I mentioned, they stillcontrol a host of other
broadleaf weeds but they do havesome great residual.
And again it comes into playhere, with products like Sharpen
(13:00):
and Authority, for example,that better soil activity and
longer lives soil activity.
And it is interesting when youdeal with PPO resistance,
particularly in the amaranthusor pigweed or waterhemp family,
(13:20):
waterhemp family we haveobserved that we have weeds that
are resistant to thosepost-emerge applications of, say
, a product like Cobra orFlexstar, but we're still able
to control them with the PPOsthat are soil-applied things
like Sherpa and Airdor Authority, for example.
So just because you haveherbicide or weed resistance,
you need to take a look at thewhole system and how the
herbicides are utilized.
(13:41):
And so that's where we're stillable to make hay with those
soil pipe and we're actuallyseeing that group of chemistry
grow as a soil residual programas we move forward.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, no, that's some interesting information so we
think about it.
You know you made someinteresting comments.
You know, thinking about wherewe might be with PPOs if
glyphosate didn't come in.
So it really kind of saved it.
So it's kind of interesting,you think how glyphosate kindly
or kind of moved people awayfrom PPOs, but the resistance to
(14:18):
glyphosate has moved peopleback to PPOs or for control from
there.
So there's a lot of them outthere.
You know, like you said youmentioned Valor, you mentioned,
like Zidro.
You know there's a lot of PPOsbeing mixed in.
They bring a lot of benefits tothe table.
We know, adding like an MSOwith them helped get a better
burn down.
But you know, every year, youalways, you always have to hear
(14:39):
that conversation about oh, thisfield, you know, got sprayed
too late, you know, or the beansare starting to crack, you know
, or or over here, you know,what are some of the watchouts
with PPOs you have to be prettyaware of.
Or you know, as as as ourlisteners are here today, like
you know, definitely don't dothis because you probably won't
like the results.
And you know, maybe kind of incorn and soybeans, both.
(15:00):
You know what.
What are some of the watchouts,some of the cautions you would
have with our listeners on onusing some of these PPOs to help
to help minimize damage andmaximize their effect.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, right, well, you bring up a good point.
And I mentioned looking atthroughout history and where the
PPOs fit.
And looking at throughouthistory and where the PPOs fit,
we'd gone away from them whenpursuit hit the market and the
reason was growers did not likeburning the you know bejesus out
of their soybeans.
That's what PPOs are known for.
(15:30):
Unfortunately, the soybeans gotbeat up along with the weeds
and generally it was mostlycosmetic, but it did, you know,
cause some degree of alarm andso that's why people went away
from it until they had to use itagain.
With the advent of ALS,resistance that built in.
But that's still a fact today.
(15:51):
You still have to take thatinto consideration.
With the post-application, lightis extremely important in
activating these herbicides.
They don't work well in thedark.
They're going to be hotter whenwe have very bright, sunny
conditions.
You mentioned additives.
We historically have beenadding methylated seed oil as a
(16:14):
adjuvant to these products forincreased burndown, and also AMS
would be kind of standard usewith the PPO chemistry
post-emerge.
So all those things come intoplay Again.
I really, you know, advisegrowers to not worry about the
post-emerge burn, but there aregetting back to those classes of
(16:36):
chemistry like Authority andSharpen and Valor.
Now you're getting into thezone where you may, you know, be
.
It's just too harsh, and sothat's what we see with products
.
That's why we apply them soilapplied to avoid that risk.
Now, it doesn't mean that theremight be some sensitivities to
some varieties.
We've seen that with Authorityand Sharpen, for example, and we
(17:01):
need to screen our varieties sothat we can share that
information and seed catalogsand seed information so people
can make their best herbicidechoices when purchasing products
products.
(17:21):
But all in all, those would bethe main things that I would
look at from a watch outstandpoint.
Is it's really aboutphytotoxicity or the negative
effects of those herbicides thatpotentially can cause that
injury?
And it's similar.
I mean, it doesn't matter ifit's Sharpen or Authority.
You're going to see a burn justlike you sprayed it.
Post emerge, the symptoms areare very much alike.
(17:43):
Uh, that you're gonna see that.
Uh, that, what we call necrosis.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, I will add one one, one on to this one and then
I'll turn it over to bill for.
The next question is um.
You know we talked with brett afew weeks ago and we were
talking about you know how we'vegone a lot away from tillage,
full tillage to no till, striptill, minimum till, whatever,
whatever we want to say Um, canthe tillage type or the residue
out there when PPOs are appliedcan it have can?
(18:12):
Can?
Can that have a difference onhow it um controls, meaning if
you're a full tillage versus ifyou have a lot of residue out
there and you're spraying a PPOout there.
Can there be a challenge thatcan happen with any of that,
that you might see some damagemore in one versus the other?
I don't know if that question'sreally making a whole lot of
sense, but can it make adifference on your tillage
(18:34):
operation you're utilizing forpotential damage you can see
with the PPO?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Yeah, sure it definitely is a part of it.
It really has to do with thewater solubility and the
herbicides you're using.
And again, this is primarilydealing with the soil applied
materials.
So think of Sharpen and orAuthority or Valor, for example.
What we see typically withSharpen, if you get a lot of
(18:58):
water immediately after planting, even if you're in a no-till
situation, you still created aseed furrow.
So there's going to be aninherent you know track for
water to run.
It's always going to take thepath of least resistance.
So if you can actually washtreated or soil or water down
(19:18):
into that seed trench and youget inhibition of the actual
chemistry within that seed, thatsoybean is probably not going
to like that, it's not going tokill it.
But you may see that responseafter the fact when that soybean
plant emerges.
Now that's because Sharpen hasgood water solubility, which
(19:39):
obviously helps it control weedsas well.
But then you deal with productslike Authority and they're not
quite the same way.
Or Valor can do this as well.
They're less water soluble andbeans come out of the ground and
then you get a pounding rainand it splashes up on those
little bean.
You know the unifoliates, andthen they burn.
(20:03):
So it's actually like you'vesprayed them post-emerge and all
you've done is simply bouncethat material off the top of the
soil.
So it doesn't really matter ifit's no-till or tillage, unless
you worked it in, if youincorporated these products but
I wouldn't recommend it becausethey work better in a zone right
(20:24):
on the soil surface.
That's how they're going tocontrol weeds, so you can
minimize this problem byincorporating it, but then
you're going to compromise yourlevel of weed control.
So we would always suggest thatthese products should be
sprayed on the soil surfaceeither pre or after planting,
but again keeping in mind somemay not be allowed to be sprayed
(20:46):
once those beans pop out of theground, for example, and corn
as well.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Mark, yeah, mark.
So you know we've talked a lotabout PPOs here and as we think
it through you know the lastcouple minutes here it sounds
like you know, oh, maybe I don'twant to spray PPOs.
They sound like they're goingto damage my crop quite a bit,
but at the end of the daythey're very effective, right,
they work really really well.
So as we think about the future, we think about, you know, basf
(21:13):
.
We can talk about what we'redoing here, kind of our pipeline
.
You know future corn products,something new you know we got
out this year I think you mightwant to talk about for corn.
And then I think you knowwhatever you want to talk about
on future soybeans and for youknow, new product for soybeans,
new product, new traits, that'scoming, you can mention that as
well.
So wherever you want to go withthis kind of pipeline
(21:33):
discussion, kind of, what do yousee for the future of PPOs with
BISF?
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Sure, well, as you mentioned, we're kind of already
exploring the future with aproduct like Sertain, where
we've basically launched thathere a year ago and it's an
encapsulated form of the Sharpen, so it does away with the
concern for injury post-emerge,as long as we're reasonable
about it.
And basically Sertain is aproduct for use in corn.
(22:04):
It's a pre-emerge herbicidecombination of Zidua and Sharpen
, but again, sharpen being anencapsulated form so we can put
it on prior to planting orpre-emerge or even early post.
Now it has no burndown activity.
That's the downside.
By encapsulating the Sharpen welose the burndown ability or
(22:27):
the attributes that thatherbicide has.
But what this does allows uswas application flexibility and
so once that corn comes out ofthe ground, starts to spike, we
say up to three leaf corn we aresafe to spray post-emerge with
a product like Sertain.
And you're still going to getyou know the great residual
(22:48):
activity and you mentioned.
You know why do we still usethem as this crop injury of
concern, these broad leaves thatare.
You know we can't let them getaround to the ground and that's
where we're almost forced.
Or you know we can't let themget around the ground and that's
where we're almost forced, or,you know, our hands are forced
into using these products, uh tohelp control, uh those weeds
and keeping them from emerging.
(23:09):
Uh, down the road, as youmentioned, we've got some
exciting things coming.
There's still a few years off.
Uh, we actually have kind of asecond generation GRIP14 PPO
coming to the market very soon.
They're going to see enhancedburndown over what we have today
In the future, as you take itout even further.
We have some PPOs that arecontrolling PPO-resistant weeds,
(23:33):
and so I'll let the scientistsexplain how that is possible,
but that's really exciting.
And we're also getting somegrass control.
You know, historically PPOs arenot considered to be herbicidal
on grass, but we've seen somecrazy things.
So, obviously definitelylooking forward to that.
(23:55):
And, as you mentioned, traittechnology, if we could create a
trait, for example, soybeans,that we could incorporate in the
soybean genome, that wouldallow, you know, the soybean to
not be affected by this PPO modeof action, wouldn't that be
something?
And, bill, maybe you have somethoughts that you could share.
(24:18):
I think you may know we'reworking on it, aren't?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
we yeah, yeah, that's exciting thing.
Yeah, ppo trait with soybeans.
We'll be working with that andstacking on top of our
nemosphere and enlist e3, stackhere, uh, pending regulatory
approval, uh, probably mid 2035somewhere in there.
Ish uh, that, that ballpark, sopretty exciting technology.
And uh, you know there'sh uhthat, that ballpark, so pretty
exciting technology.
And uh, you know there's alsosome, uh some work on corn being
(24:41):
done too, uh, for some PPOstuff.
So that's kind of kind ofunique and some different things
that we're looking at.
So pipeline's pretty full,pretty excited about that that
as well.
So, yeah, good stuff, goodstuff.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, no.
So we, you know we hit a lot onPPOs because that's probably
one of the most popular onesthat's being used in a lot of
areas right now.
We said we were going to talk alittle bit about Metribuzin.
So, mark, can you just give usa little bit of an idea of what
is Metribuzin and again, justlike we did with PPOs, how does
it work?
And are there some common namesout there that maybe they don't
know it's Metribuzin, but they?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
know it as this particular name out there, and
what that value of thatmetribuzin brings to being
utilized out there.
Sure, jeff, metribuzin, oldchemistry, go back to the 70s
and you'll remember trade names.
Sencor and Lexone would be thetwo primary ones in row crops.
Sencor is still a product butit's not for use in row crops
anymore.
I think they have limited it toturf only.
The product has been genericfor many, many years and it's
(25:44):
actually sold as metribuzin bythat name or they're using the
common name of the herbicide.
There are some other genericnames.
You know Winfield has a productout there called Dimetric.
I hear of that one.
Glory is another one where thegeneric firms handles.
(26:05):
But these would be, they're allgroup fives.
They're light blockers,photosystem II, they're
affecting photosynthesis, sothat makes them cousins to
triazines.
This is a triazinone family,not triazine, but they're
cousins to triazines.
This is a triazinone family,not triazine, but they're
cousins to triazines, and a lotof your listeners probably are
familiar with triazines.
We think of bacterizine, right,another old, established group
(26:27):
of chemistry that we've used foryears and years and years.
So they're different classes ofchemistry but they have the
same mode of action andultimately we have to worry
about resistance with these aswell, because of their age and
endurance.
They also have a group ofwatchouts, I think historically
again they were used, or CINCORwas used a lot in the 70s again
(26:52):
until product-like pursuit camealong and fixed all the problems
that Sencor had.
You know, sencor was a productthat was very subject to getting
moisture to activate Dry years.
It doesn't perform very well.
Huge weakness on the nightshadefamily, which was a common weed
(27:14):
that soybean growers werefacing in the upper Midwest.
Back in the 70s I rememberseeing magazine ads of
purple-stained beans that werecombines plugged with yellow or
black nightshade and it was, youknow, classic.
You know Treflin Senghor was akey program that just didn't
(27:36):
phase it.
And here comes a long productlike Pursuit which wiped it off
and so life was different.
But systemic chemistry it stillhas some use in today's world.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, that's a great point, Bill, real quick before
that.
You know that's actually BlackNightshade, something we're
starting to see more coming inover here in Nebraska.
It's coming back more.
And then, secondly, when yousaid plugged combine, I remember
my dad plugging it and Jeffclimbing into the back of the
Mass C-410 and spending aboutfive hours in there and coming
out with juice all over, and Inever wanted to do it again.
So those were nightmare themass c410 and spending about
five hours in there and comingout with juice all over, and I
(28:11):
never wanted to do it again.
So those were nightmare days.
So, bill, go ahead and take itaway yeah, I'd say I'd same
thing.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I was writing with a customer in a case ih twin rotor
, uh, basically popping up overno, I'm sorry, it was a single
rotor popping up over a hill andall of a sudden bam found that
spot where the sprayer didn'tget and and it was complete
nightshade.
Same thing, just wrappedeverything up, just a mess.
So we spent, you know, becausewe were talking, of course, as
we're riding in the combine andpopped up and over and spent
(28:39):
talking.
So yeah, we spent the next fourhours unwrapping the rotor with
all the stuff that we had inthere.
So, mark, if you think aboutmetribuzin, you think about.
You know you mentionedwatchouts.
So what about resistant weeds,kind of where's the spectrum at
for metribuzin on weedresistance?
You know what are the watchoutsand really, why do we still use
(29:01):
it in soybeans, and primarilysoybeans here?
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Well, as a group five or photo system two, you have
to assume that there might becross-resistance to anything
that is resistant to atrazine,right?
So it goes back to lamb'squarter being one of the earlier
weeds that popped up on thescreen that was resistant to the
(29:26):
triazines, but now thewaterhemp fit into that as well.
So there's just a host ofbroadleaf weeds that are
problematic with the group 5spotentially.
But in spite of that we'restill seeing a fair amount of
activity in a lot of areas, youknow with the product, like
(29:47):
metribuzin on waterhemp, and soit's another nice little mode of
action to throw in there.
It is, as I mentioned, systemic, so it's giving us residual
activity.
It really is not a standaloneand probably never has been.
It needs help, but it lendsitself to being a good tank mix
(30:08):
partner with a lot of products,and so we're seeing it routinely
mixed with, you know, literallyany other pre under the sun,
basically to help bolster thoseresidual programs.
It very long lived in the soil,just like atrazine.
These are products that hangaround a long time and
(30:30):
unfortunately that could be adetriment to us in a lot of
parts of the country as well,which we'll touch on here in a
minute as well, but it still hassome utility and I guess the
biggest thing is just to makesure that you understand the
watchouts with the product andthe rates and how the product
(30:52):
needs to be utilized.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, so the watchouts.
You know we got some high pHs.
I mean anything concern therethat we run into or what are
your concerns with that?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Yeah, that is the primary problem.
Where I grew up we talked aboutPocahontas County and the Des
Moines Lobe, the big area ofnorth central Iowa that is
historically poorly drained, wet, high pH soils, which these are
areas where atrazine we werenever big atrazine users Simply
(31:22):
was carry over and herd oursoybeans.
So a lot of corn growers upthere never knew what atrazine
was if they were rotating tosoybeans.
And Sencor finally fits in thatsame vein.
Even though it's a product foruse in soybeans, it has the same
detrimental effects potentially.
The pH is very important in theavailability of these herbicides
(31:48):
the triazines and the triozineI can't say it Sencor or
metramuzine, but basically thatpH makes it available and is
liable to injure sweat beads.
So the labels will cautionagainst using them in high pH
areas.
And where you do use them, wejust need to cut our rate down
(32:11):
and generally we're looking ataround a third of a pound, at
being that maximum and, as youmentioned, we screen varieties
at Story City in a beautifularea that we have to, and we're
looking at much higher rates.
You know we look up to likefour or five X rates to really
tease out differences in thesesensitive varieties Because
there are big differences ingenetics and what they will
(32:33):
tolerate.
So that's good information andI think we could provide growers
as well, so they can make agood decision when purchasing
their seed.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yeah, so just real quick, you mentioned that.
I would say just reach out toyour local, whoever you know.
Wherever you get your seed from, you know they should have some
knowledge on it.
If they don't push them for it,uh, they have some idea on that
.
So so I would also youmentioned uh kind of earlier on,
there's a bunch of genericsright out there, so so a lot of
companies are coming outsomething new.
(33:02):
Right, it's new because it'sgot you know this different
whatever in it, and some of themare just a generic low race,
low rate of metribuzin, as youstart digging through the label
and you start finding what itactually is in there.
So make sure I guess youunderstand what you have out
there.
That's kind of a comment I hadthere as well.
So, jeff, I'll turn it back toyou.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and I know that's something
that we deal with over here inNebraska.
A challenge with that is thepHs we have and river, river,
valley sands and a lot of thattoo.
So, uh, it can get pretty hotin some of those cases.
So, yeah, that's.
That's great points put outfrom there.
So well, you know, we've hadreally nice discussion.
Ppo and metrobusiness.
(33:40):
Mark, we really thank you fortaking the time today and
joining us.
Um, so we're probably betterneed to wrap this thing up, uh,
for for our audience today.
So I guess what I would say,mark, is there any comments, any
questions, anything you'd liketo finish off with here, before
we let you go, that we didn'tcover or that you'd like the
audience to hear or learn a bitmore about today?
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Well, you know, I would just say, if you're
interested in herbicides,learning more about them, bill
mentioned a big part of theproblem is that growers deal
with trade names of products.
You know companies sell productsthat are, you know, branded.
There's a good document it'sthe Take Action Herbicide
Classification sheet that yourlisteners might want to download
(34:27):
Because it really kind of helpsgo through the different modes
of action.
But maybe more importantly, itlists a lot of those brand names
and even premixes that containit.
So that is the big differenceor the big deal, just like Bill
mentioned.
I mean there's a lot ofconfusion when people they're
buying a product thinking it'ssomething new, and then you find
(34:47):
out it has Metribuzin in it andthen you realize that that's a
product that you used back inthe late 70s and nothing new at
all about it.
It's new because it's acombination with something else,
but it still has the samelimitations.
So that would be just areference I would throw out
there and if folks havequestions, reach out to their
(35:10):
local BSF rep or guys likemyself, your tech service rep or
your local BSF retailer.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Awesome, Awesome.
Well, Mark, thank you for allyour knowledge and information
day.
We really appreciate it,learned a lot and and appreciate
you taking the time to talk tome and build a day.
So, uh, get back to the bar andhave lock here once in a while,
have a beer and uh, and, and,and have a good one.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yep Thanks.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
So Bill again learned a lot um PPOs, Metribuzin, you
know, talked about those two,two things.
Um, you know you don't realizehow much PPO especially is being
used out there, but uh, youknow we heard a lot of good
things from Mark today.
We're just a couple oftake-home points that you got
today that you think gave yousome knowledge and be good
(35:57):
information for some of ourlisteners today.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yeah, no, I always like talking to Mark.
He's full of knowledge and, youknow, always a trip down memory
lane too, right?
So there's just a lot of thingsyou think back and you know
I'll finish with a quick storyas well.
So when I first started retail,uh, one of the first things I
did I was I really just come outof working for, actually, a
company called rumpel lock, uhinternship and do a lot of stuff
(36:21):
with them, did a lot ofresearch plots there, and I said
, hey, I want to do a researchplot, kind of a demo plot, for
all the people you know,customers.
I had, course, what I do I layeverything out and get it all
lined up and, of course, a lotof Blazer, cobra, flexstar, you
name it.
We had all that stuff and, youknow, burnt the heck out of the
beans.
And then you got this plotPursuit was new, looked awesome,
(36:42):
and you know everything wasawesome at that point in time
and of course I'm dating myselfkind of where I was at there at
that point in time.
But you know a lot of neatthings.
You just think about the history.
So I think my point is you gotto understand the history of the
AIs and the modes of actionsthat you have out there and how
to use them and how to integratethem in your system, even today
.
So you know, as we thinkthrough you know that was 30
(37:04):
years ago.
You think through, you know howdo we still use these AIs and
these different modes of actionto incorporate into our complete
system?
You know, and I think aboutthat, I think about the fact
that you know, we have somethings that are PPOs, and PPO
resistant weeds can still becontrolled, and we've got some
new stuff in the pipeline.
So you know, that's theexciting part about it.
(37:25):
And you know then, just lots ofgeneric versions of Metribuzin.
I think that's the big thingout there as well.
So how about you, jeff?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, you know, just because the chemistry is old
does not mean it's still notvaluable or a heavy lifter in
your program.
You know I think about atrazinewhen that came in in the 60s.
You know I still tell you know,a half a pound atrazine still
makes things work pretty darngood.
So I found it interesting toknow a half a pound of atrazine
still makes things work prettydarn good.
So I found it interesting toknow.
(37:53):
You know you think about it.
You forget how we relied on PPOsso much early on and then
glyphosate really took so manythings out of the game and now
we're using the PPOs againbecause the glyphosate isn't
working.
So again, you know it's kind ofwhat we keep hearing.
My biggest take home message iswhat we've been hearing, you
know, when we've talked to anyof the tech service reps or
anybody in the industry and it'scome to with using chemistries
(38:13):
and that is man, it's all aboutmaking sure you're doing things
right have the right setup,using the right nozzles, making
sure the timing's correct, youknow, making sure you're doing
things right, because if youknow you want to kill weeds, the
best time to kill them isbefore they're up, first of all,
and secondly, you've got toapply things correctly, because
(38:36):
if you don't do it correctly,it's not going to work.
And we're spending a lot ofmoney on chemistries and we need
to make sure our dollars go inthe.
We're getting that return oninvest for what we're doing out
there, but, again, a wealth ofknowledge, and I didn't know
that he was in that Havelockarea, which that was kind of
interesting.
I'll have to chat more with himwhen we get on that one.
(38:56):
So, with that being said, Ithink we're going to wrap it up
today.
We learned a lot today andwe're going to hear more from
Mark here in a couple more weeks, talk about a little bit with
charcoal rot.
But, with that being said, toeverybody in our audience today,
thanks for joining us again forthis episode of Spilling the
Beans.
We invite you to download theGrow Smart Live app for more
resources and share this podcastwith other growers.
(39:17):
So, as we always do at the endof our podcast, me and Bill
would like to say thank you andmake it a great day.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Thanks for joining us on Spilling the Beans, where
every episode gets you one stepcloser to maximizing your
soybean profitability.
If you found today's insightsvaluable, subscribe and leave us
a review on your favoriteplatform.
Download the Grow Smart Liveapp for more resources and share
the podcast with other growers.
See you next week with moreexpert tips to help you grow
(39:46):
smarter and achieve the bestyields yet.
Liberty Outlook, Zidua, Zidua,Pro Poncho, Motivo, Precise,
Endura, Rivitec.
We'll see you next time.
Enlist E3 are registeredtrademarks of Corteva Agritians
(40:08):
LLC.
The transgenic event in EnlistE3 Soybeans is jointly developed
and owned by Corteva AgritiansLLC and MS Technologies LLC.
Chitavo is a registeredtrademark of MS Technologies and
exclusively distributed by BSF.
All other trademarks are theproperty of their respective
owners and use of any suchtrademark does not imply any
affiliation with or endorsementby its owner.
Always read and follow labeldirections Before mixing
components.
Always conduct a compatibilityjar test.
(40:29):
Always consult respectiveproduct labels for specific
mixing instructions.
The most restrictive labelapplies.
Natai Fastax CS is arestricted-use pesticide.
Mimasphere Zorina and Voraxorare not registered and not
available for sale.
This information is providedfor educational purposes only
and is not intended to promotethe sale of this product.
Any sale of this product afterregistration is obtained shall
be based solely on the EPAapproved product label and any
claims regarding product safetyand efficacy shall be addressed
(40:51):
solely by the label.
The views expressed by BASFemployees and guests are their
own and do not necessarilyreflect the views of BASF.
Growsmart is a registeredtrademark of BASF.
Copyright 2025 BASF Corporation.
All rights reserved.
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