Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Voiceover (00:01):
Welcome to Spirited Discussions.
A podcast by Alcohol BeverageServices exploring alcohol
products trends and policies inMontgomery County.
Jocelyn Rawat (00:12):
Thanks for joining us.
I'm your host, Jocelyn Rawat.
As retail theft continues to bea topic of concern across the
country, we're taking a look atthe ways ABS and its partnering
agencies approach this complexissue.
So, to help us sort it out,we're joined by Sergeant Jesse
Dickensheets, who works in theMontgomery County Police
Department's 4th District,serving Wheaton, Glenmont and
Silver Spring areas.
(00:33):
Sergeant Dickensheets has beenin the department for 21 years,
and prior to his recentpromotion (congratulations), he
spent 10 years investigatingproperty crimes for the 5th
District, so much of that timewas spent working in retail
crimes.
So, hi, Sergeant.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensh (00:48):
Morning .
Thank you for having me.
Jocelyn Rawat (00:50):
And from Alcohol Beverage Services, we have Pete
Schomburg, who joined ABS threeyears ago in order to create a
comprehensive loss preventionprogram.
He comes to us with a strongbackground in this area,
including work with severalhigh-profile retailers.
And I would like to note thatthe ABS Loss Prevention Program
has won a couple of high-profilebest practices awards
(01:14):
nationally.
So congratulations for that,and welcome Pete.
Pete Schomburg (01:18):
Good morning, thank you for having me.
Jocelyn Rawat (01:19):
Pete, I want to start with you because, although
today we're going to befocusing on retail theft, loss
prevention is a lot bigger thanthat, so can you tell us what it
entails?
Pete Schomburg (01:28):
Certainly, the primary focus of any loss
prevention or asset protectionteam is really just to identify
potential loss within anyorganization, wherever it may be
.
What we do is pretty much asupport unit making a positive
impact on everything fromincident follow-up to operations
of the business sales, makingour stores more secure and
(01:52):
enhancing overall customershopping experience.
Jocelyn Rawat (01:56):
Okay, but it could look at other things too,
right?
Not just what's happening inthe stores.
You might look at the warehouseor best practices or the way
our equipment works, or anythingthat would cause us to lose
something.
Pete Schomburg (02:08):
Yeah, that's right.
When I got here and I've beendoing LP for 25 years or so I
didn't really want to reinventthe wheel and in fact I kind of
took a little bit of a backseatand kind of understood the
operation of the business,understood the needs of the
organization.
Specifically, being agovernment entity, it's a little
(02:31):
bit different than working in aprivate business and so our
primary focus is operationalshrink loss from theft and fraud
and things like that and thenany internal situations that
might arise.
Jocelyn Rawat (02:46):
Yeah, and we'll talk a little bit about that,
more about the way thatgovernment and retail kind of
mesh together in a unique wayhere.
But before that, Sergeant, Ihave a question for you.
There's been a lot ofdiscussion in the news and on
social media about retail theft,which includes shoplifting and
organized retail crime.
But I find it a little bitdifficult to understand really
what's fact and what'sexaggeration, because, you know,
(03:07):
sometimes there's a littleexaggeration on social media.
So how serious is retail theft?
Sergeant Jesse Dickenshe (03:13):
Retail theft is a huge problem for
society in general.
What we have are most of us payfor our goods and other people
are stealing goods, and what itdoes is it creates a problem in
these areas where people shop.
It creates higher prices.
It can sometimes create anunsafe environment, causes a lot
(03:33):
of stress to employees andbusiness owners.
I'm going to throw a stat outat you.
I got this from the NationalRetail Federation, and because
they take nationally the amountof information that they get,
and it takes a while to compilethis, the most recent data is
for 2022.
And in 2022, there's $112billion in losses.
Now, that includes shrink.
(03:55):
That includes a little bit ofcalculation error as well, but
they have it pinned down that$40 billion of that is from
external shrink, meaning fromloss prevention oriented cases
like shoplifting.
Jocelyn Rawat (04:07):
Okay, so that's why we're here today, right To
talk about that piece of it.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheet (04:10):
More recent information real quick
and we got this.
This is from 2023.
Maryland had 104,000shoplifting cases that were
officers made arrests.
Approximately 104,000.
That's a lot, so it's a lot oftheft going on.
It's a problem.
It's an arena that I've been infor about 10 years and there's
(04:31):
a big difference betweenshoplifting and the organized
retail crime.
I don't know if you want to godown that rabbit hole or not.
Jocelyn Rawat (04:39):
Okay, so Pete, how?
How does this retail theftgenerally translate to ABS
stores?
What's happening there?
Pete Schomburg (04:47):
When we designed the program, we came up with a
solution for stores to reportincidents that occur in retail.
Obviously, we can't beeverywhere at the same time.
There's only four of us and wefocus on operational and
different things here and there.
So, from a shopliftingstandpoint, the easiest thing
(05:12):
that we came up with was areporting system that's used by
stores to report things thatthey're seeing out there.
From a shoplifting perspective,we've worked on about 3,000
theft-related cases this yearand last year combined.
Wow, that's roughly a total of$176,000 worth of reported
incidents of shoplifting overthe course of this and last year
.
Jocelyn Rawat (05:30):
Yeah, that's a little concerning.
So what's your team doing toprevent these types of incidents
or to pursue justice if they dooccur?
Pete Schomburg (05:37):
Yeah, so our first approach is a deterrence
strategy.
So we have various things inplace.
We have things like awarenessin stores.
We do store visits, talkingabout awareness and what to look
for, how to report those things, what resources are available
to find the information theyneed to report and what to
report.
We have a program called well, Ihave called it "product
(05:59):
security, so it's really calledelectronic article surveillance
in the LP world.
But product security isbasically the little sensors on
the bottle tops and the alarmwhen you go out of the store,
which is really a visualdeterrent for any petty
shoplifting, and then if they doend up taking something with
that item on it, it'll alert asthey leave the building.
(06:21):
When we receive the reports,we're compiling them in a way
that and Jesse hinted at thisearlier there's petty
shoplifting here and there.
Reports come in daily.
But there's also something thatwe call complex investigations
(06:45):
and those are the ones we reallyhitting committing thefts in
multiple locations across thecounty or committing multiple
thefts in the same location forhigher dollar amounts.
We try to focus on those as apriority.
Jocelyn Rawat (06:57):
Okay, so what do these techniques look like from
the customer's perspective?
Pete Schomburg (07:02):
It's basically invisible.
You might see the bottle topshere and there.
Hopefully it's not too scaryfor people to look at that.
I think it blends well andwe're basically invisible from a
personal standpoint.
So we do visit and we doconduct audits and things in
stores, but we it follow-up tocases that we get and things
like that and almost all of ourwork from a law enforcement
(07:24):
partnership standpoint is donebehind the scenes.
Jocelyn Rawat (07:27):
Okay, so, sergeant, I'd like to know what
it looks like from some MCPD'sperspective too, including what
you just mentioned.
Like, how are you separatingout petty retail theft from
organized retail theft?
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (07:48):
So typically when we get it, it
would be most times it would bean investigator handling the
case.
Your patrol guy would go out,take a couple of reports, but
usually Pete and his team are ontop of it.
They'll contact.
.
.
it's usually a patrolinvestigations unit, which I did
the last 10 years and you havea meeting.
He'll typically provide thestats of what the amount is up
(08:09):
to, provide the CCTV footage andany suspect ideas on who it may
be.
A lot of times they do a greatjob and they kind of have an
idea who the person is before weget it.
If not, we view the CCTV, wesnip it or use pictures they
provide to us and we are lookingfor and this is something that
ABS does a great job of theyhave really good video.
(08:31):
That is a huge discouragement, adiscouraging factor to
criminals coming into the storebecause if they've been
prosecuted before, they knowcrystal clear video helps make
cases.
So we're looking for anypersonal characteristics like a
mole, a tattoo, some kind of asnaggle tooth, anything that's
going to stand out.
I made a case on a bad toenailone time on somebody.
(08:51):
They had a toenail fungusinfection and it's hilarious
because anything that you canshow that has a personal
characteristic.
You can ask the judge to seethat in court.
They don't always have to giveit to you, but it allows us to
make a case and ID who thatperson is.
And then what happens is wework together with our victim in
this case ABS they tell us whatthey would like as an outcome
(09:13):
and we prosecute the casetogether as a team with the
state attorney's office.
Pete Schomburg (09:16):
Yeah, really, when I came in here I had a few
of these answers already, butpartnering with Jesse and other
people from Montgomery Countyhas been a blessing, because
they've really given us theanswers to the test.
As far as, like, what to report, how to report it, I've heard a
lot of times and I don't knowhow true this is but they copy
and paste our stuff andinterject where they need to,
(09:37):
you know, to give it toprosecutors and things like that
.
So I take personal pride in someof that, but a lot of that is,
again, partnership with lawenforcement and them telling us
what they need from us.
Jocelyn Rawat (09:47):
Okay, so that's interesting.
So I hear you both saying thatthis is a meaningful partnership
for the community, and I wouldimagine that a piece of that is
that ABS is a pretty big entity.
We have 27 retail stores, whichI imagine is more than most
private retailers.
So does it make a differencethat ABS is so large and has
(10:08):
these different locations thatare kind of unified under one
umbrella?
Pete Schomburg (10:13):
I think the biggest factor there is that
we're the only game in town froma certain perspective.
I know beer and wine storesexist, but as far as spirits,
it's Montgomery County stores,and so if people are committing
crimes in liquor stores per se,it is going to be in one of our
retail stores.
Another point of that, anotherfactor to consider, is that a
(10:36):
lot of these crimes that arecommitted are theft, but the
same people that are committingthe theft in our stores are
committing other crimes,potentially somewhere else, and
so it really helps the communityto identify some of these folks
and close their cases.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (10:53):
The only thing I'd like to add with
that is there is a challenge,and this is a really big
challenge right now.
When I was in the 5th Districtworking in my capacity as an
investigator, I was responsiblefor 5th District crimes.
Now, with this being acounty-wide organization, ABS
having 27 stores, a lot of timesPete and I had a good enough
relationship that I would workcases even down in Silver Spring
(11:14):
or Rockville wherever the needwas.
It's really about as a businessin the ABS having good
relationships with lawenforcement, that you have
somebody that you can go to.
I've moved on.
I don't work these cases rightnow because I'm supervising a
shift, but it's going to come toABS making that relationship
(11:35):
with somebody new to handle thecases, most likely in a patrol
investigations capacity.
But it's getting difficultbecause many of patrol functions
and police functions arebasically being used to run
police calls.
So with manpower dwindling, theshoplifting arena becomes very
difficult for the policedepartment to handle because of
(11:56):
strictly manpower alone.
It makes it tough.
Jocelyn Rawat (11:58):
Okay, so these partnerships really matter, not
just with ABS, but with privateretailers as well.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (12:03):
I would imagine yeah, absolutely.
Jocelyn Rawat (12:04):
Okay, so between the two of you, the team has had
some really good measurablesuccesses in terms of closed
cases and restitution.
So, Pete, can you tell us aboutthat?
Pete Schomburg (12:13):
Yeah, so part of any prosecuted case would
include restitution.
Obviously, not everybody hasthe money to pay back the
restitution, but we do get courtordered restitution.
In every one of thesesituations and in almost all
cases where there is probationas a part of their sentencing,
restitution is a part of theprobationary period.
(12:34):
So if they don't end up payingthe restitution for whatever
reason, it could potentiallyviolate the probation.
We have demanded throughprosecution approximately 33 to
35,000, over the course of thisyear and last year from
prosecuted cases, and most ofthose again are the complex
(12:55):
investigations that cause alarge amounts of loss to ABS.
We're currently working on asolution to track the recovered
dollars because a lot of timesthey'll come to me or they'll
come to the County or they'll gohere and there and everything.
So we're trying to compile allthat information in a format
that tells us the story, butwe're not quite there yet.
Jocelyn Rawat (13:17):
So why do these successes matter?
Pete Schomburg (13:19):
Well, I mean restitution offsets some of the
costs of the loss preventionprogram.
Restitution goes directly backinto ABS and what we contribute
back to the community from salesand things like that.
Jocelyn Rawat (13:32):
OK.
So what you said kind ofreminds me, and I'd like to
remind everybody that ABS is notsupported by tax dollars.
I think that's a commonmisconception that ABS is tax
funded.
It is not.
The department is fundedentirely by the sale of alcohol,
and that includes all salariesand benefits.
And then the remaining profitsare used to pay for resident
(13:52):
services that otherwise would bepaid for with tax dollars.
So that means that everyone wholives in Montgomery County
benefits from Alcohol BeverageServices, whether they drink
alcohol or not.
And that includes not just therevenue that gets poured back
into the community but also thesafety measures that I would
think then extend from ourstores into the neighboring
(14:14):
stores.
Am I understanding thatcorrectly?
Extend from our stores into theneighboring stores?
If an ABS store is safer thenthe retailer next door is safer
too, is that a reasonableassumption?
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (14:24):
I would agree with that, Jocelyn.
It's one of those things wherecriminals hang out, where
criminal conduct occurs.
We know that consumption ofalcohol oftentimes goes with
other crimes.
So if you have a bunch ofstores that really don't enforce
any kind of asset protection,it's going to be known and
people are going to congregateand hang out in that area and it
(14:44):
becomes a problem.
So as a unified front, if youhave a wide variety of retail
stores creating a strong frontwith strong asset protection,
it's going to discouragecriminal activity from that
entire area where those storesare and they'll go find a weaker
target to hit yeah and, to thatpoint, full speed ahead.
Pete Schomburg (15:03):
We've been at this for about two years and
we've seen a dramatic decreasein these complex investigations
and it could be called ORC ororganized retail crime.
But again, the complex casesare the ones that are causing
large amounts of loss withmultiple locations involved,
multiple actors involved, andsince we've been following up
with these cases and reports andprosecutions and all these
(15:25):
different things we're doing,we've seen a dramatic decrease
in that type of activity.
Jocelyn Rawat (15:30):
Okay, so I heard you say that ABS is the only
seller of liquor by the bottle,and that is correct in 27 of our
retail stores, but there arehundreds of privately owned beer
and wine stores and many ofthem are mom and pop businesses
and they may not have the levelof resources to invest into big
(15:50):
loss prevention programs.
So what measures do yourecommend for them, Sergeant?
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (15:56):
The best thing I can say is forge
relationships with your localpolice department.
This goes for anywhere in thecountry.
If you have a retail store.
Forge those relationships.
Identify who's going to be yourresponding force.
Typically it's patrol.
Oftentimes if these are in yoururban areas of the community,
we have something called CBD.
There's your guys out onbicycles, they're walking around
(16:19):
making those relationships.
They're usually the first torespond.
Also, find out who yourinvestigator is going to be,
because a lot of times thecriminal gets away with the
product and an investigator hasto look at it and figure out who
they are.
If you have cell phone numbersof those people or even office
numbers and you're on a firstname basis, when they hear that
call go out, they don'tassociate it with a store.
They associate it with anindividual who's making that
(16:40):
phone call.
That they know because of thatforged relationship.
The other thing is there's likea street credit kind of game
going on with criminals and forretail it's how good your stuff,
how good your asset protectionis.
Ok, ABS has great cameras.
That's something they're knownfor.
Word gets out throughprosecutions when they see
(17:01):
themselves on video in a courtcase and they're like wow, that
is really clear.
You can't deny that you know.
You can't deny that it's notyou.
That helps as well as airtightrecords, loss prevention reports
.
You just have to keep accuraterecords, because the last thing
I want to do is testify overinformation I'm given by a
retailer and then being proventhat that's not accurate
(17:22):
information.
It makes me look like an idioton a stand.
I can probably get in troublefrom that and your case isn't
solid.
It gets thrown out.
Criminals know they can targetthat store then.
Pete Schomburg (17:31):
Yeah, and to that point I would say that it
seems fairly standard andstraightforward.
But I have made it a point, andwe are all making a point to
attend at least, at the veryleast attend court proceedings.
We take it a step further whenwe go there, because I feel like
(17:51):
this is kind of a miss in a lotof retail loss prevention
environments.
I know it's kind of taken froma personal standpoint, an
individualistic standpoint, butI think it's very important to
at the very least attend thesecourt proceedings.
If you prosecute someone as avictim or as an LP professional,
you should at the very leastattend the court proceeding.
(18:12):
But when you're in court, makepartnership with the assistant,
state's attorneys, talk aboutwhat happened in the store, talk
about what your needs are, whatyou expect the outcome to be,
those types of situations andeventually, if you're in there
enough, they'll get to know you,they'll get to know your
business, they'll get to knowwhat your expectation is and
(18:33):
they'll basically do everythingfor you.
You would just have to sayhello and that's pretty much it.
Jocelyn Rawat (18:38):
Okay, I don't know how many would- be thieves
we have listening to our littlepodcast, um, but if we do, uh,
what message do you have forwould- be thieves?
Pete Schomburg (18:46):
This is the part where I interject something
funny.
Um, from my standpoint, I mean,it might not worth their time,
it's not worth their money, it'snot worth the potential jail
time that could come with thesituation.
I mean, even if you, you knowthere's different levels of
(19:07):
theft in Montgomery Countythere's theft under, theft over
in schemes and all these things.
I mean, even if you take asingle item, it could be over
the threshold of $100 and nowyou're looking at a misdemeanor
crime and potential jail timeand all these things you have to
pay the money back.
I would say it's just not worthit.
I mean, none of those thingssound pleasant to me, so it's
(19:29):
not worth it.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (19:31):
We have a few tricks up our sleeves
.
Technology has allowed us to dosome things we could never do
before.
I'm not going to mention themall, but I'll just say that
you're not going to outrun thedrone.
Jocelyn Rawat (19:45):
Okay, so that's probably not our audience.
What message do you have forthe people shopping in our
stores?
What message do I have forpeople shopping in stores?
I would say, as a result ofwhat we're doing, there is a
more immediate product selection.
I mean, people don't stealthings that they don't want,
(20:06):
right?
So if it's not being stolen, it's still there
on the shelf to buy.
That's correct and it's on theshelf to buy at a better price,
I would imagine.
Pete Schomburg (20:13):
Yeah, I mean you'll see markups across the
industry and even differentindustries, soft lines and hard
lines and all these things.
You'll see markups due to theftand then it's unfortunate that
all the markups are on theproducts that people want to buy
.
So I would say that primarily,there's a better selection, a
more immediate selection of thethings that you want in stores
(20:36):
and hopefully we're making it amore secure environment for you
to come and shop.
Jocelyn Rawat (20:40):
Okay, that's my favorite environment to go and
shop.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (20:43):
My comment doesn't have to deal
with ABS, but mine is a policeresponse in general.
Have fun, have your drinks,don't drink and drive, and if
you're going to get a little outof control, make sure you're
doing it in a safe environmentwhere the police and the general
public don't have to interactwith you.
But live it up, have fun.
Jocelyn Rawat (21:02):
Thank you.
I really appreciate thatreminder.
So thank you, Pete Schomburgand Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets
for participating in today'sSpirited Discussion.
If there's a topic you'd likeus to cover on the podcast,
email us atabsspiriteddiscussions at
montgomerycountymdgov.
And thanks for listening.
Voiceover (21:21):
Alcohol Beverage Services is the alcohol
wholesaler of beer, wine andspirits for Montgomery County
and it operates neighborhoodretail stores.
Abs also manages alcohollicensing, enforcement and
education for more than 1,000businesses.
Profits are used to pay forresident services that otherwise
(21:42):
would be funded by county taxdollars.
This podcast is brought to youby County Cable Montgomery, your
source for news and informationfrom the Montgomery County
Government.
Connect with us via cable,facebook, instagram or YouTube
by searching for County CableMoCo.
Welcome to Spirited Discussions.
A podcast by Alcohol BeverageServices exploring alcohol
products trends and policies inMontgomery County.
Jocelyn Rawat (00:12):
Thanks for joining us.
I'm your host, Jocelyn Rawat.
As retail theft continues to bea topic of concern across the
country, we're taking a look atthe ways ABS and its partnering
agencies approach this complexissue.
So, to help us sort it out,we're joined by Sergeant Jesse
Dickensheets, who works in theMontgomery County Police
Department's 4th District,serving Wheaton, Glenmont and
Silver Spring areas.
(00:33):
Sergeant Dickensheets has beenin the department for 21 years,
and prior to his recentpromotion (congratulations), he
spent 10 years investigatingproperty crimes for the 5th
District, so much of that timewas spent working in retail
crimes.
So, hi, Sergeant.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensh (00:48):
Morning .
Thank you for having me.
Jocelyn Rawat (00:50):
And from Alcohol Beverage Services, we have Pete
Schomburg, who joined ABS threeyears ago in order to create a
comprehensive loss preventionprogram.
He comes to us with a strongbackground in this area,
including work with severalhigh-profile retailers.
And I would like to note thatthe ABS Loss Prevention Program
has won a couple of high-profilebest practices awards
(01:14):
nationally.
So congratulations for that,and welcome Pete.
Pete Schomburg (01:18):
Good morning, thank you for having me.
Jocelyn Rawat (01:19):
Pete, I want to start with you because, although
today we're going to befocusing on retail theft, loss
prevention is a lot bigger thanthat, so can you tell us what it
entails?
Pete Schomburg (01:28):
Certainly, the primary focus of any loss
prevention or asset protectionteam is really just to identify
potential loss within anyorganization, wherever it may be
.
What we do is pretty much asupport unit making a positive
impact on everything fromincident follow-up to operations
of the business sales, makingour stores more secure and
(01:52):
enhancing overall customershopping experience.
Jocelyn Rawat (01:56):
Okay, but it could look at other things too,
right?
Not just what's happening inthe stores.
You might look at the warehouseor best practices or the way
our equipment works, or anythingthat would cause us to lose
something.
Pete Schomburg (02:08):
Yeah, that's right.
When I got here and I've beendoing LP for 25 years or so I
didn't really want to reinventthe wheel and in fact I kind of
took a little bit of a backseatand kind of understood the
operation of the business,understood the needs of the
organization.
Specifically, being agovernment entity, it's a little
(02:31):
bit different than working in aprivate business and so our
primary focus is operationalshrink loss from theft and fraud
and things like that and thenany internal situations that
might arise.
Jocelyn Rawat (02:46):
Yeah, and we'll talk a little bit about that,
more about the way thatgovernment and retail kind of
mesh together in a unique wayhere.
But before that, Sergeant, Ihave a question for you.
There's been a lot ofdiscussion in the news and on
social media about retail theft,which includes shoplifting and
organized retail crime.
But I find it a little bitdifficult to understand really
what's fact and what'sexaggeration, because, you know,
(03:07):
sometimes there's a littleexaggeration on social media.
So how serious is retail theft?
Sergeant Jesse Dickenshe (03:13):
Retail theft is a huge problem for
society in general.
What we have are most of us payfor our goods and other people
are stealing goods, and what itdoes is it creates a problem in
these areas where people shop.
It creates higher prices.
It can sometimes create anunsafe environment, causes a lot
(03:33):
of stress to employees andbusiness owners.
I'm going to throw a stat outat you.
I got this from the NationalRetail Federation, and because
they take nationally the amountof information that they get,
and it takes a while to compilethis, the most recent data is
for 2022.
And in 2022, there's $112billion in losses.
Now, that includes shrink.
(03:55):
That includes a little bit ofcalculation error as well, but
they have it pinned down that$40 billion of that is from
external shrink, meaning fromloss prevention oriented cases
like shoplifting.
Jocelyn Rawat (04:07):
Okay, so that's why we're here today, right To
talk about that piece of it.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheet (04:10):
More recent information real quick
and we got this.
This is from 2023.
Maryland had 104,000shoplifting cases that were
officers made arrests.
Approximately 104,000.
That's a lot, so it's a lot oftheft going on.
It's a problem.
It's an arena that I've been infor about 10 years and there's
(04:31):
a big difference betweenshoplifting and the organized
retail crime.
I don't know if you want to godown that rabbit hole or not.
Jocelyn Rawat (04:39):
Okay, so Pete, how?
How does this retail theftgenerally translate to ABS
stores?
What's happening there?
Pete Schomburg (04:47):
When we designed the program, we came up with a
solution for stores to reportincidents that occur in retail.
Obviously, we can't beeverywhere at the same time.
There's only four of us and wefocus on operational and
different things here and there.
So, from a shopliftingstandpoint, the easiest thing
(05:12):
that we came up with was areporting system that's used by
stores to report things thatthey're seeing out there.
From a shoplifting perspective,we've worked on about 3,000
theft-related cases this yearand last year combined.
Wow, that's roughly a total of$176,000 worth of reported
incidents of shoplifting overthe course of this and last year
.
Jocelyn Rawat (05:30):
Yeah, that's a little concerning.
So what's your team doing toprevent these types of incidents
or to pursue justice if they dooccur?
Pete Schomburg (05:37):
Yeah, so our first approach is a deterrence
strategy.
So we have various things inplace.
We have things like awarenessin stores.
We do store visits, talkingabout awareness and what to look
for, how to report those things, what resources are available
to find the information theyneed to report and what to
report.
We have a program called well, Ihave called it "product
(05:59):
security, so it's really calledelectronic article surveillance
in the LP world.
But product security isbasically the little sensors on
the bottle tops and the alarmwhen you go out of the store,
which is really a visualdeterrent for any petty
shoplifting, and then if they doend up taking something with
that item on it, it'll alert asthey leave the building.
(06:21):
When we receive the reports,we're compiling them in a way
that and Jesse hinted at thisearlier there's petty
shoplifting here and there.
Reports come in daily.
But there's also something thatwe call complex investigations
(06:45):
and those are the ones we reallyhitting committing thefts in
multiple locations across thecounty or committing multiple
thefts in the same location forhigher dollar amounts.
We try to focus on those as apriority.
Jocelyn Rawat (06:57):
Okay, so what do these techniques look like from
the customer's perspective?
Pete Schomburg (07:02):
It's basically invisible.
You might see the bottle topshere and there.
Hopefully it's not too scaryfor people to look at that.
I think it blends well andwe're basically invisible from a
personal standpoint.
So we do visit and we doconduct audits and things in
stores, but we it follow-up tocases that we get and things
like that and almost all of ourwork from a law enforcement
(07:24):
partnership standpoint is donebehind the scenes.
Jocelyn Rawat (07:27):
Okay, so, sergeant, I'd like to know what
it looks like from some MCPD'sperspective too, including what
you just mentioned.
Like, how are you separatingout petty retail theft from
organized retail theft?
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (07:48):
So typically when we get it, it
would be most times it would bean investigator handling the
case.
Your patrol guy would go out,take a couple of reports, but
usually Pete and his team are ontop of it.
They'll contact.
.
.
it's usually a patrolinvestigations unit, which I did
the last 10 years and you havea meeting.
He'll typically provide thestats of what the amount is up
(08:09):
to, provide the CCTV footage andany suspect ideas on who it may
be.
A lot of times they do a greatjob and they kind of have an
idea who the person is before weget it.
If not, we view the CCTV, wesnip it or use pictures they
provide to us and we are lookingfor and this is something that
ABS does a great job of theyhave really good video.
(08:31):
That is a huge discouragement, adiscouraging factor to
criminals coming into the storebecause if they've been
prosecuted before, they knowcrystal clear video helps make
cases.
So we're looking for anypersonal characteristics like a
mole, a tattoo, some kind of asnaggle tooth, anything that's
going to stand out.
I made a case on a bad toenailone time on somebody.
(08:51):
They had a toenail fungusinfection and it's hilarious
because anything that you canshow that has a personal
characteristic.
You can ask the judge to seethat in court.
They don't always have to giveit to you, but it allows us to
make a case and ID who thatperson is.
And then what happens is wework together with our victim in
this case ABS they tell us whatthey would like as an outcome
(09:13):
and we prosecute the casetogether as a team with the
state attorney's office.
Pete Schomburg (09:16):
Yeah, really, when I came in here I had a few
of these answers already, butpartnering with Jesse and other
people from Montgomery Countyhas been a blessing, because
they've really given us theanswers to the test.
As far as, like, what to report, how to report it, I've heard a
lot of times and I don't knowhow true this is but they copy
and paste our stuff andinterject where they need to,
(09:37):
you know, to give it toprosecutors and things like that
.
So I take personal pride in someof that, but a lot of that is,
again, partnership with lawenforcement and them telling us
what they need from us.
Jocelyn Rawat (09:47):
Okay, so that's interesting.
So I hear you both saying thatthis is a meaningful partnership
for the community, and I wouldimagine that a piece of that is
that ABS is a pretty big entity.
We have 27 retail stores, whichI imagine is more than most
private retailers.
So does it make a differencethat ABS is so large and has
(10:08):
these different locations thatare kind of unified under one
umbrella?
Pete Schomburg (10:13):
I think the biggest factor there is that
we're the only game in town froma certain perspective.
I know beer and wine storesexist, but as far as spirits,
it's Montgomery County stores,and so if people are committing
crimes in liquor stores per se,it is going to be in one of our
retail stores.
Another point of that, anotherfactor to consider, is that a
(10:36):
lot of these crimes that arecommitted are theft, but the
same people that are committingthe theft in our stores are
committing other crimes,potentially somewhere else, and
so it really helps the communityto identify some of these folks
and close their cases.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (10:53):
The only thing I'd like to add with
that is there is a challenge,and this is a really big
challenge right now.
When I was in the 5th Districtworking in my capacity as an
investigator, I was responsiblefor 5th District crimes.
Now, with this being acounty-wide organization, ABS
having 27 stores, a lot of timesPete and I had a good enough
relationship that I would workcases even down in Silver Spring
(11:14):
or Rockville wherever the needwas.
It's really about as a businessin the ABS having good
relationships with lawenforcement, that you have
somebody that you can go to.
I've moved on.
I don't work these cases rightnow because I'm supervising a
shift, but it's going to come toABS making that relationship
(11:35):
with somebody new to handle thecases, most likely in a patrol
investigations capacity.
But it's getting difficultbecause many of patrol functions
and police functions arebasically being used to run
police calls.
So with manpower dwindling, theshoplifting arena becomes very
difficult for the policedepartment to handle because of
(11:56):
strictly manpower alone.
It makes it tough.
Jocelyn Rawat (11:58):
Okay, so these partnerships really matter, not
just with ABS, but with privateretailers as well.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (12:03):
I would imagine yeah, absolutely.
Jocelyn Rawat (12:04):
Okay, so between the two of you, the team has had
some really good measurablesuccesses in terms of closed
cases and restitution.
So, Pete, can you tell us aboutthat?
Pete Schomburg (12:13):
Yeah, so part of any prosecuted case would
include restitution.
Obviously, not everybody hasthe money to pay back the
restitution, but we do get courtordered restitution.
In every one of thesesituations and in almost all
cases where there is probationas a part of their sentencing,
restitution is a part of theprobationary period.
(12:34):
So if they don't end up payingthe restitution for whatever
reason, it could potentiallyviolate the probation.
We have demanded throughprosecution approximately 33 to
35,000, over the course of thisyear and last year from
prosecuted cases, and most ofthose again are the complex
(12:55):
investigations that cause alarge amounts of loss to ABS.
We're currently working on asolution to track the recovered
dollars because a lot of timesthey'll come to me or they'll
come to the County or they'll gohere and there and everything.
So we're trying to compile allthat information in a format
that tells us the story, butwe're not quite there yet.
Jocelyn Rawat (13:17):
So why do these successes matter?
Pete Schomburg (13:19):
Well, I mean restitution offsets some of the
costs of the loss preventionprogram.
Restitution goes directly backinto ABS and what we contribute
back to the community from salesand things like that.
Jocelyn Rawat (13:32):
OK.
So what you said kind ofreminds me, and I'd like to
remind everybody that ABS is notsupported by tax dollars.
I think that's a commonmisconception that ABS is tax
funded.
It is not.
The department is fundedentirely by the sale of alcohol,
and that includes all salariesand benefits.
And then the remaining profitsare used to pay for resident
(13:52):
services that otherwise would bepaid for with tax dollars.
So that means that everyone wholives in Montgomery County
benefits from Alcohol BeverageServices, whether they drink
alcohol or not.
And that includes not just therevenue that gets poured back
into the community but also thesafety measures that I would
think then extend from ourstores into the neighboring
(14:14):
stores.
Am I understanding thatcorrectly?
Extend from our stores into theneighboring stores?
If an ABS store is safer thenthe retailer next door is safer
too, is that a reasonableassumption?
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (14:24):
I would agree with that, Jocelyn.
It's one of those things wherecriminals hang out, where
criminal conduct occurs.
We know that consumption ofalcohol oftentimes goes with
other crimes.
So if you have a bunch ofstores that really don't enforce
any kind of asset protection,it's going to be known and
people are going to congregateand hang out in that area and it
(14:44):
becomes a problem.
So as a unified front, if youhave a wide variety of retail
stores creating a strong frontwith strong asset protection,
it's going to discouragecriminal activity from that
entire area where those storesare and they'll go find a weaker
target to hit yeah and, to thatpoint, full speed ahead.
Pete Schomburg (15:03):
We've been at this for about two years and
we've seen a dramatic decreasein these complex investigations
and it could be called ORC ororganized retail crime.
But again, the complex casesare the ones that are causing
large amounts of loss withmultiple locations involved,
multiple actors involved, andsince we've been following up
with these cases and reports andprosecutions and all these
(15:25):
different things we're doing,we've seen a dramatic decrease
in that type of activity.
Jocelyn Rawat (15:30):
Okay, so I heard you say that ABS is the only
seller of liquor by the bottle,and that is correct in 27 of our
retail stores, but there arehundreds of privately owned beer
and wine stores and many ofthem are mom and pop businesses
and they may not have the levelof resources to invest into big
(15:50):
loss prevention programs.
So what measures do yourecommend for them, Sergeant?
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (15:56):
The best thing I can say is forge
relationships with your localpolice department.
This goes for anywhere in thecountry.
If you have a retail store.
Forge those relationships.
Identify who's going to be yourresponding force.
Typically it's patrol.
Oftentimes if these are in yoururban areas of the community,
we have something called CBD.
There's your guys out onbicycles, they're walking around
(16:19):
making those relationships.
They're usually the first torespond.
Also, find out who yourinvestigator is going to be,
because a lot of times thecriminal gets away with the
product and an investigator hasto look at it and figure out who
they are.
If you have cell phone numbersof those people or even office
numbers and you're on a firstname basis, when they hear that
call go out, they don'tassociate it with a store.
They associate it with anindividual who's making that
(16:40):
phone call.
That they know because of thatforged relationship.
The other thing is there's likea street credit kind of game
going on with criminals and forretail it's how good your stuff,
how good your asset protectionis.
Ok, ABS has great cameras.
That's something they're knownfor.
Word gets out throughprosecutions when they see
(17:01):
themselves on video in a courtcase and they're like wow, that
is really clear.
You can't deny that you know.
You can't deny that it's notyou.
That helps as well as airtightrecords, loss prevention reports
.
You just have to keep accuraterecords, because the last thing
I want to do is testify overinformation I'm given by a
retailer and then being proventhat that's not accurate
(17:22):
information.
It makes me look like an idioton a stand.
I can probably get in troublefrom that and your case isn't
solid.
It gets thrown out.
Criminals know they can targetthat store then.
Pete Schomburg (17:31):
Yeah, and to that point I would say that it
seems fairly standard andstraightforward.
But I have made it a point, andwe are all making a point to
attend at least, at the veryleast attend court proceedings.
We take it a step further whenwe go there, because I feel like
(17:51):
this is kind of a miss in a lotof retail loss prevention
environments.
I know it's kind of taken froma personal standpoint, an
individualistic standpoint, butI think it's very important to
at the very least attend thesecourt proceedings.
If you prosecute someone as avictim or as an LP professional,
you should at the very leastattend the court proceeding.
(18:12):
But when you're in court, makepartnership with the assistant,
state's attorneys, talk aboutwhat happened in the store, talk
about what your needs are, whatyou expect the outcome to be,
those types of situations andeventually, if you're in there
enough, they'll get to know you,they'll get to know your
business, they'll get to knowwhat your expectation is and
(18:33):
they'll basically do everythingfor you.
You would just have to sayhello and that's pretty much it.
Jocelyn Rawat (18:38):
Okay, I don't know how many would- be thieves
we have listening to our littlepodcast, um, but if we do, uh,
what message do you have forwould- be thieves?
Pete Schomburg (18:46):
This is the part where I interject something
funny.
Um, from my standpoint, I mean,it might not worth their time,
it's not worth their money, it'snot worth the potential jail
time that could come with thesituation.
I mean, even if you, you knowthere's different levels of
(19:07):
theft in Montgomery Countythere's theft under, theft over
in schemes and all these things.
I mean, even if you take asingle item, it could be over
the threshold of $100 and nowyou're looking at a misdemeanor
crime and potential jail timeand all these things you have to
pay the money back.
I would say it's just not worthit.
I mean, none of those thingssound pleasant to me, so it's
(19:29):
not worth it.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (19:31):
We have a few tricks up our sleeves
.
Technology has allowed us to dosome things we could never do
before.
I'm not going to mention themall, but I'll just say that
you're not going to outrun thedrone.
Jocelyn Rawat (19:45):
Okay, so that's probably not our audience.
What message do you have forthe people shopping in our
stores?
What message do I have forpeople shopping in stores?
I would say, as a result ofwhat we're doing, there is a
more immediate product selection.
I mean, people don't stealthings that they don't want,
(20:06):
right?
So if it's not being stolen, it's still there
on the shelf to buy.
That's correct and it's on theshelf to buy at a better price,
I would imagine.
Pete Schomburg (20:13):
Yeah, I mean you'll see markups across the
industry and even differentindustries, soft lines and hard
lines and all these things.
You'll see markups due to theftand then it's unfortunate that
all the markups are on theproducts that people want to buy
.
So I would say that primarily,there's a better selection, a
more immediate selection of thethings that you want in stores
(20:36):
and hopefully we're making it amore secure environment for you
to come and shop.
Jocelyn Rawat (20:40):
Okay, that's my favorite environment to go and
shop.
Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets (20:43):
My comment doesn't have to deal
with ABS, but mine is a policeresponse in general.
Have fun, have your drinks,don't drink and drive, and if
you're going to get a little outof control, make sure you're
doing it in a safe environmentwhere the police and the general
public don't have to interactwith you.
But live it up, have fun.
Jocelyn Rawat (21:02):
Thank you.
I really appreciate thatreminder.
So thank you, Pete Schomburgand Sergeant Jesse Dickensheets
for participating in today'sSpirited Discussion.
If there's a topic you'd likeus to cover on the podcast,
email us atabsspiriteddiscussions at
montgomerycountymdgov.
And thanks for listening.
Voiceover (21:21):
Alcohol Beverage Services is the alcohol
wholesaler of beer, wine andspirits for Montgomery County
and it operates neighborhoodretail stores.
Abs also manages alcohollicensing, enforcement and
education for more than 1,000businesses.
Profits are used to pay forresident services that otherwise
(21:42):
would be funded by county taxdollars.
This podcast is brought to youby County Cable Montgomery, your
source for news and informationfrom the Montgomery County
Government.
Connect with us via cable,facebook, instagram or YouTube
by searching for County CableMoCo.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com