Protecting the Game: Keke Lyles on Ankle Injuries, Recovery & Betterguards Tech

Keke Lyles, former Director of Performance with the Golden State Warriors and Executive Director for the Atlanta Hawks, joins Will Sanchez and Dr. Grant Garcia to unpack why ankle sprains sideline athletes and how Betterguards’ “seatbelt for the ankle” is changing the game. Hear how flexible-but-smart bracing stiffens only at dangerous speeds, why pros value comfort as much as protection, and what led to a reported faster return-to-play. Plus, inside stories on team collaboration, rehab vs. surgery, and applying performance tech beyond the ankle. A must-listen for athletes, trainers, and anyone who’s battled recurring sprains.

Highlights you’ll hear:

• The “piston” tech that allows natural movement, then locks when you need it most.

• Why comfort drives adoption in the NBA, and how version 3.0 improved fit.

• Real-world outcomes: fewer severe sprains and quicker confidence in return-to-play.

• The path from Steph Curry-era ankle challenges to modern prevention thinking.

• Future applications to knees and elbows, and outreach to youth sports.

Shoutout: Big thanks to our sponsors at The Recovery Shop for supporting smarter rehab and protection.

Hashtags: #SportsDocTalk #KekeLyles #GrantGarcia #WillSanchez #Betterguards #AnkleSprain #SportsMedicine #PerformanceScience #NBA #Rehab #InjuryPrevention #Orthopedics #RecoveryShop

Episode Transcript

(00:16):
Welcome to Sports dot Talk. I'm Will Sanchez, along with
Doctor Grant Garcia, our orthopedic surgeon, sports
medicine specialist. Doctor Garcia's.
I had to take out my Allen Iverson slant short shirt.
We're talking a little basketball, we're talking a
little rehab. We're getting into everything 12
months out of the year. We can talk basketball.

(00:37):
But before I get into all that stuff and introduce our guests,
Dr. Garcia, how are you? I'm good, I'm good.
I'm things are good over here. It's summer in Seattle.
Can't complain. I'm really excited for our
guests coming up. We've talked at nauseam about
ankle sprains and how long the issues with them and the
recovery process and you know, on our football updates, we're
always like, well, when are theygetting back?

(00:58):
I don't know. I don't know.
It's a huge, it's probably it, it goes for every one of these
sports and and it's not above that and for the NBA.
So I'm really excited for this. Yeah, so am I and someone that's
had major ankle injuries as well, you know, we probably
could have used some of that technology and some of the
things that we're going to talk about, but we're talking about

(01:19):
injuries. So we're talking about
recoveries. Let's give a shout out to our
folks there at the recovery shop.
Yeah. So special thanks to Mike and
those guys, Recovery Shop and their sponsorship.
Again, like I said before, you know, this is maybe something
that you can eventually find better guards on.
But the idea behind here is thatfor people that are recovering
from something or some sort of rehab ability, you can use this,

(01:40):
especially as a surgeon to kind of keep everything put together
for your patients. They're always asking, what more
can I do? What better can I do?
How can I protect myself? And this is your option.
So it works great. It can be customized and the
patients like the personalized experience similar to something
we're going to show in a minute.All right, let's, let's not
waste any more time. Let's bring in our guests.

(02:00):
We're really excited to have ourguests.
KK Lyles, thank you so much for being a part of the show, being
with us and sharing your knowledge.
I will do my best to keep DoctorGarcia under control.
He likes to ramble a lot. Love it.
Yeah. Yeah.
So first and foremost, what Whatare we thinking about the Allen
Iverson shirt? How you feeling about that?
I love I I miss the old SLAM magazine.

(02:23):
Obviously that's what we grew upon, right?
So yeah, yeah, I'm loving it. That was that was kind of like
the Fangoria for sports fans, basketball fans.
I don't even know if Fangoria still exists.
And as you see, I digress. I go off onto different
tangents, which is one of the things that gets me in trouble
here. But let's talk about your
career. We have so many things to get on

(02:44):
to talk about, but you've workedwith some of the top athletes in
the world. You have NBA experience.
Why don't you just give our folks, our listeners, our
viewers a little bit of a background on the things that
you've done and we'll lead up tothe things that you're doing
now. Yeah.
Well, first appreciate you guys having me on as a guest.
So excited to have this conversation.

(03:06):
Yeah, my background doctor in physical therapy grew up playing
sports and really is when I was in PT school, I started working
as a strength and conditioning coach for the university.
I went to Northeastern out therein Boston.
And it was during that time whenI really started to develop this
idea of like, especially in athletics, like injuries and

(03:27):
performance is really on a continuum.
And especially during the season, you know, we're either
trying to optimize performance or maybe recover from an injury.
And so it's kind of all along that same continuum.
And I love technology. I love trying to understand
things at a higher, maybe a deeper level.

(03:49):
And so I've always been attracted to different different
tech, different data sets to inform my decisions or kind of
my hunches and, and have kind of, you know, built a career
around that, I suppose. And so fortunate after grad
school, got on with the Minnesota Timberwolves as a head

(04:09):
SNC coach. After a few seasons there went
to Golden State as director of performance.
I had obviously success, team success, winning a championship
in Golden State, which I think opened up more opportunities for
me and eventually went to the Atlanta Hawks as executive
director, kind of overseeing everything, sports medicine,

(04:30):
sports performance, sports science, you name it.
And and try to build systems, build out systems in place that
we can assess our athletes, try to understand them on an
individual level and and build programs to help them achieve
their goals. I think it's important for our
listeners to see that we're the person here who's going to talk

(04:51):
about this product. We're going to talk about this
is not something where you just all of a sudden showed up and
decided to do this. It's you lived it, breathed it.
You've had to deal with injuriesto all those sort of high level
players and with the professionals.
We keep talking about these injuries, right?
Like one day out is a lot of money, two days out it's a lot
of money. It's a huge investment for the
team. It's also hugely, it is

(05:11):
satisfying and frustrating for the players, so I think that
this is a great setup to kind ofthe next steps.
Yeah. And I think honestly, you know,
I mean, obviously you said it all sports deal with ankle
injuries, but any injury to yourpoint, like our job is really to
try to prevent as many as the, you know, kind of preventable

(05:33):
injuries that are out there, soft tissues, overuse injuries,
things like that. But some injuries are
unavoidable. And when that happens, our job
is to get the player back as quick as we can.
So we we kind of look for anything and everything that's
going to help us in that process.
And over the years, you know, since being with the NBA team,
obviously meeting better guards in the ankle burst company that

(05:56):
we're going to talk a little bitabout like it's just a game
changer, not only helping prevent the injury from
happening, but then also speeding up the recovery
afterwards. Awesome.
So what we kind of hinted at it,people have seen in my
background, they saw it on the intro, they're going to see it
on all the blasts. But tell us how you got to that
point. And then I kind of want to show
off the product really quick with the video and then we'll go

(06:18):
back to doing more questions. Yeah, so after departing with
the Atlanta Hawks, moved out to Southern California where I'm
still at and worked with Navy Special Warfare and started
consulting with teams and individual athletes.
Did some projects around with the NBA league office as well.
And that's when they started theLaunchpad program.

(06:41):
And that's when how I got introduced to better guards.
And so when I first met that team through the Launchpad
program with another company I was working with at the the time
advising just immediately is like, where has this been?
I got super excited about it, obviously, and started advising,
working with the team and, and really just trying to get it out

(07:03):
and in front of as many athletesand get feedback.
And obviously they're coming outwith their three-point O brace.
So, you know, they they do a great job of taking feedback
from athletes more around the comfort than anything and making
it more and more comfortable, which, you know, it's just a
testament to the company becauseI thought the version 1 was
really comfortable. So the fact that they're on

(07:24):
version 3 already is is pretty awesome.
Well, and I think one of the negatives of all these braces is
you can constantly hear like it may be high stiffness, but maybe
not in this case. We'll show that in a second.
But really it's comfort, right? And a lot of the players don't
want to play. It's just like ACL braces.
Like if you're not going to get a player to wear an ACL brace,
they're not comfortable. And maybe they protect you, but

(07:45):
they're not comfortable and you're not going to play your
higher performance. So it's a really important
point. Yeah, And you know, to be honest
too, I mean, obviously in GoldenState, working with stuff like
and through some of his injury stuff like, I mean, the comfort
of the brace is going to be probably more important to the
player than the function of the brace.
And that's just the reality of it.

(08:06):
And so you may have the best brace in the world, but if the
player, to your point, if the player is not comfortable
wearing it, they're just not going to wear it.
And so there has to be a perfectbalance of comfort and function.
I think that's an awesome segue.We'll pull up the video and then
let's go back. You got it.

(09:02):
Music. Great video.
Yeah, you're seeing the flexibility, You're seeing the
jump. I used to jump like that many
moons ago. Not really.
You catch like that too, right? You got.
Oh yeah. Well, you know, to be fair, with
the gloves that they have now, any of us can pretty much catch.
But I don't want to get in trouble with any any of these
athletes here. But anyway, go ahead.

(09:24):
Anyhow, so I love the video. Obviously it shows, you know you
got the next step right? You see someone actively using
it in addition to the fact that they're they're playing
football, they're able to do their thing.
So we obviously not talking about football today, but I let
you know the promo video is a good setup for this.
So maybe Kiki, you can kind of explain to the the viewers and
stuff kind of what this is. Because here this podcast, we

(09:46):
focus really, we get a lot of guest requests and we don't take
many of them because the focus is on sports medicine, rehab and
athletics and how it all mixes together.
And how can you make my job easier by not having to
constantly fix these ankle surgeries and or deal as a team
physician, as you know, you've worked with, I'm sure all the
team physicians for those teams,they're really good guys, but

(10:07):
it's a pain in the butt, right? Like double timer rehab.
These ankle sprains are not fun to treat, right?
It's just you can't fix them allthe time and you're just waiting
and waiting for them to recover.So kind of talk about the better
guards and your stuff. Yeah, I think so.
One of the things that really stands out and is unique about
the better Guard spurious is that it's actually quite
flexible. And and I have one here, so I

(10:28):
can just show it like you can see, like it looks like, you
know, that doesn't look like. Yeah.
And so like when you put it on it, it really feels like a
compression sock, which is great.
I mean, because it allows freedom of movement.
And so I know why he's talking. Yeah, and I know when I grew up

(10:50):
playing sports and had my fair share of ankle sprints to like I
used to wear the like the reallythick ankle brace that pretty
much restricts all movement. And even as a kid and I just no,
even though those are pretty badtoo.
But even though you know, they like the ones after you have
surgery where you you know, they're just plastered on the

(11:11):
sides, you can kind of dorsiflexand plantar flex and that's it.
And so I think having this freedom of movement is, is the
thing that at least the athleteslove because it's like they
don't feel like they're wearing an ankle brace.
Now, the protection, you know, their tagline is it's a seat
belt for for the ankle. And you can see it in the

(11:32):
picture there. But what it has is and the
technology is pretty cool. Is this little piston on the
side there? Go to that slide.
There's a slide there. I want to show the viewers this.
This is cool, yeah. I mean, you guys can see really
quick. We can see all the people that
use this. It's pretty freaking awesome.
So. And all these other things.
But go to the the tech, the techslide is really good.
Keep going. Oh, with the different braces.

(11:53):
Oh yeah, here we go. So here's here's like the magic
is that little piston. And so even the one I'm holding,
like you can kind of pull it outand you know, it's not that big
of a deal. But when you go fast, it locks
up just like the seat belt, right?
You can pull a seat belt on niceand slow, buckle it in, but when
you go to pull it fast, it locksup.
And so that's the idea here withthis little piston and, and how

(12:16):
the brace works is it allows freedom of movement.
But when there's a sudden roll of the ankle, quick movement,
then it stiffens up and protectsthe ankle.
And so that that's really what sets this brace apart.
It's really unique and obviouslygenius, designed by the group in
Germany that created it. And then so like in here, this

(12:38):
is it looks rigid only because of the way you guys had to make
it for the 3D. But your 1 is like so soft.
So it's like almost like a sock kind of material.
You said neoprene and then it has that one hinge, the piston.
It has the one piston. Yep, and and what's different?
You know, I was talking about the different versions like you
can see here, like where this little bracket is like some some

(13:00):
athletes would complain, like they could feel that bracket.
And so they've they've moved that up on on the three-point O
just to make it more comfortable.
So it literally feels like you're just wearing a
compression sock. Awesome.
And then, yeah, keep going whileyou go.
Yeah, yeah, I, no, I just want to kind of bring it up with some
of the inspiration or any of those conversations.

(13:21):
Obviously, you dealt with Steph Curry, right?
And he had, I mean, he's probably, besides Grant Hill,
one of the most famous athletes that I can remember that we
actually considered or was concerned that he may not have a
career because he had so many ankle injuries.
Davidson, 2011, he had a bunch of injuries. 2012 he, I, I

(13:43):
believe back-to-back years, he had the surgery while 2012 they
went in, they cleaned everythingup and there were a lot of
concerns. So working with him, working
with the, with the team doctor, you know, everyone involved.
Was there some inspiration on that where you saw first hand
like these are the problems thatwe deal with.
And with my expertise, I can give that feedback to a company

(14:05):
like this. It was a little bit of that,
although by the time I met better guards, they'd already
designed it. And so I was, I was more of like
the, the assurance of like, yes,this is going to make a
difference. Just working with all the guys
that I've worked with, like wishing we had this back, you
know, in 20. I joined the Warriors in 2013.

(14:26):
So right after Steph really had all his surgeries and
everything, like, you know, we were exploring everything on the
market back then, obviously. And that's what you do in the
team setting. Like you, you kind of have to
leave no stone unturned. And so, yeah, I wish I had this,
like I said, when I first saw I was like, this is a no burner

(14:47):
when he put it on, feel it, start moving around, feel the
protection. And so and I think that's why
they're having this success. Like, I mean, it's it's blown up
really in the last year. I mean, it's going off like
gangbusters now. KK will you describe to the
viewers? You know, I could do like the
surgical side of things, but I think from you being the
performance coach, like you guys, I mean, this is actually a

(15:07):
really cool side conversation that we can have for the viewers
hearing this. Because what they don't
understand is that the conversation between the doc,
the team doc, like myself, and the performance coach is
actually really vital. And we do that a lot behind the
scenes, as you know, I mean, youprobably spend more time with
the doctors than you even do with the players sometimes.
Like, hey, what do I do here? I tried this, it's not working.
What are your thoughts? This is all A-Team
collaboration. And you know, it's funny, most

(15:29):
of the most of the teams think the docs do all the work.
And they do like very little comparative to people like you.
Like you do most of the work andyou're the one that's like doing
all the tight trading. And you're like the chemist,
right? And I come in and I'm like, hey,
listen, may not surgery, may need surgery, but you're the
chemist. I'm like, what do you think?
You know, it's always like you're the ones in charge.
So it's. So how would you so before this,

(15:49):
how would you rehab or try to prevent ankle injuries, these
sprains because they're so common?
And then let's talk about after,Yeah?
So I think, you know, yeah, I think you're right.
I probably did have more conversations with our team docs
than than the actual players. And part of that is, you know,
we're working with athletes every day.

(16:10):
And so we kind of have an idea of their strengths.
Well, we better have an idea of their strengths and weaknesses
for sure, but how they're moving, how they're responding
to different things that were thrown at them.
And so we we kind of have that intimate knowledge.
And then we have, you know, obviously when the team docs
gets involved, it's like, OK, this is what we're seeing as a
performance staff or as the medical staff on the from the

(16:32):
team side, right? And we're saying, hey, you know,
he we may look at force plate. We can look at balance.
We can look at, you know, use all the technology in the world
and then use our eyes on the court.
This is how they're moving this how they're responding.
And then when we kind of had this conversation with the team
docs, it it's really about, OK, from a medical standpoint, what

(16:53):
what can we do? What are our options, right
surgery, yes or no? Is it some sort of ortho
biologic, some injections or something like that, right, that
can this help or that help and or we bring in a podiatrist and
what can we do to the footwear? What what is his current
footwear or her current footwear?

(17:13):
And how is that affecting their kind of bio mechanics?
And So what we try to do is havethis really holistic picture of
like, okay, here's what we thinkis the problem.
Here's ways we can address that problem.
And depending on, you know, the athlete, where they're at, where
the injuries at, we may be superaggressive or we may be super
conservative. And so that's part of the

(17:37):
conversation as well. And so we take the plan, we go
back, we implement the plan and we start working on it.
And then, you know, depending onhow the athletes responding,
we're going to have to adjust. And sometimes that goes well and
sometimes it doesn't go well. And so, you know, an example is
we may, we may know surgery is an option, but we may not want

(17:57):
to go there first, right? And so we're going to try some
of the other exercises and, and kind of building up, you know,
you asked like what we did before this and it's really
building up like the foot and the ankle muscles, but it's also
like the whole kinetic chain, like all the way up how they're
or how they're using their movement strategies.
Do they load their hips or are they very knee dominant?

(18:20):
And all these things that how someone moves will determine,
you know, our intervention. And so sometimes that
intervention works, but when it doesn't work, we say, OK, I
think we need to go to surgery. And and that's where having the
team docs involved in the process because they know what
we're trying. They kind of sense, hey, this is
probably going down the right path or hey, this is not really

(18:43):
going down the right path. Let's jump in now.
And I think with athletes, it's like, you know, if you have to
have surgery, then you want to have it sooner than later, but
you don't want to have it too soon if you don't have to have
it, right. Well, I think that's I think.
That's a final point. Too, That's a really important
point for people to hear right from from because they can hear
from me, but hearing from you like the when to do surgery

(19:05):
sometimes is really challenging decision much too, right?
Because like, yeah, they want toget fixed, they want to get
back. They want to get back on their
contract or win the championshipor whatever else they're going
to do. But you also don't.
That's the art, right? That's the art of working with
guys like you to decide if this is the time to pull the trigger.
And you know, all these sports docs you see that come out of
school and they're like, I'm going to be a sports surgeon.
I got this. And then you get to like team

(19:26):
coverage and you're like, whoa, this is totally different than
what I learned, right. Like the book answer is like, if
you tear this, you fix this. Not in professional athletes.
It's a whole nother. There is like a different
category, which there is no bookwritten for it and it's feel and
it's learning with your team andit's why like, you know, it's
funny, we're used in the operating room being kind of
like control of the thing when you're on a team, like the team

(19:47):
doctor is like, let's talk to all the other people.
Like you guys, tell me what you need.
I'm here as a resource. You got to put your ego down
when you work with the professional teams.
And it can be challenging for some surgeons.
So the important part is to like, it's a team environment.
But jumping a little forward to talk about what do you think now
with, I mean, people still probably get some sprains of

(20:08):
this. Maybe not.
We can show the data but like have you noticed?
Like we'll look at the data in asecond, but if you, what would
you say now, like if you, I knowyou work more with the company,
you've done a little less with the teams in the last few years
because you're more the consulting.
But what do you think A-Team nowhaving this product would feel
in terms of their rehab or how they're feeling?
Like is this a, is a product just if you sprain your ankle,
is it a preventative thing? Use it for both or like what I

(20:31):
care about too is like you sprain their ankle to let's say
the player doesn't want to use it, right?
They're like, I don't want to use this new product, which
again, some people might won't want to.
So they sprain their ankle or they injure their ankle and then
you use this afterwards too. Like what are the uses for?
Yeah, so definitely a couple, a couple good points there.
You know, being a new product, you can imagine especially
professional athletes are like there, there's a handful of guys

(20:55):
who are just like, no way I'm wearing that.
It's new, right? And so they, they, they had to
find the right players who are willing to try it and, and give
it, give it a shot. And that's been happening over
the years. And I think that's why I'm
saying like there's been a lot of growth this last year because
now, like players and athletes across leagues have been using

(21:16):
it and getting more and more comfortable with it.
And, and I think, you know, the biggest thing is you what you
see is, yeah, you can still obviously if you land on
someone's foot, right, even if you're wearing this like you
could roll your ankle. But what, what we're seeing and
what the data is showed is like it's it's a major reduction in

(21:38):
severe ankle sprains. So now, you know, potentially
what might have kept you out forfour to six weeks may only keep
you out for one to two weeks. And obviously, you know that
that's huge for us. Like it's huge for the athlete.
And then the other part is, is, yeah, if an athlete really
doesn't want to wear it, you know, as a protective mechanism,

(22:00):
they can certainly wear post injury.
And the reason that's valuable is, is because it gives you the
natural mechanics and the freedom of movement.
Like you're not compensating, you're not developing an
abnormal movement pattern. And so you get the protection
of, you know, the athlete feels the proprioceptive protection of

(22:21):
the compression. Obviously the Pistons there.
So if they were to roll it, it'sprotected, so that's why they're
seeing an increase in return to play from normal compared to not
wearing it post injury. Awesome.
So yeah, so can I ask clarifying, So you're saying so
the let's go, cuz let's try to convince more people on this
show. Like that's better, right?

(22:41):
Like players that are already using it, they know it's better,
right? That's the easy one.
Like those aren't hard sells, but the players that aren't
using error, the people aren't using it.
So you get, let's say you get wecan already show the reduction
in risk injury. And I want to talk about that.
That's an easier discussion. But let's say you get injured.
So if you were the performance coach, let's say you're back on
the Warriors, right? Player gets injured right away.

(23:03):
They injure their ankle. They're the ones that didn't
want to do it. And you don't want to say I told
you so, but you just want to say, hey, here's what I would
recommend. So how would you rehab a player
now with this brace? So as soon as they injure it,
we'd get them in the brace and have them wear just all the time
walking around everything, you know, and depending on again,
yeah, depending on the severity,you know, if they're not walking

(23:25):
yet, they can still wear it and,and develop that confidence in
it that it's going to protect them.
And that's what the the study showed.
I think it was 54% faster returnto play with wearing the brace
after the injury. And so after someone gets hurt,
yeah, 54% faster. So you're essentially half the

(23:46):
time, right? And, and that, that is huge for
any athlete to get back. And so I mean, we're, we're
still going to treat it the way you would treat any ankle
sprain, right? You're going to do all, you
know, whatever you have access to, you're going to do what you
know, normally would. We're just adding the brace on.
Do you Do you see again? I know, I know, you work with

(24:09):
company, right? Not on the floor giving these
out every time, but in what you've heard anecdotally from
the athletes, this 54% return tosport faster.
Do you feel like they're just they're meeting all their
checklists? Like is that the, is that what's
getting them back faster? Like, hey, listen, you no longer
have pain in there. You're you're able to run with
confidence. You're not limping, right?
Because there's always a return to play protocol for all these,

(24:30):
these concussions, Acls, you name it.
So are they basically you're saying that they're they're
beating, they're checking the protocol faster with this
roughly? Right.
Yep. Yeah, that's it.
And I think the biggest thing like when you compare just
antidotically, like in my experience before kind of better
guards, you know, this like early 2000 tens, like when

(24:51):
someone rolls their ankle sprain, you know, rolls their
ankle has an ankle sprain, you know, around like the three or
four week mark, they're feeling pretty good.
But they it's always that last like 10 to 15% that just seems
to drag out forever. And I think to me that's the
biggest thing that's changing islike this is all happening much

(25:12):
quicker now. And you hear athletes use the
word like, I just feel so much more confident in it.
And so I think that's a huge aspect like because it's
protecting them because they have their normal kind of bio
mechanics at the foot and ankle,like they just are confident in,
in returning to play. And I think it just gets them
over that last 10 to 15% much faster than what they previously

(25:35):
did. Right, so you're just you're
just going to see less long haulers.
I mean we've seen these NFLS notorious for it.
NBA's notorious for it, right. The the guys are like they
should be back. You know, like you see the ankle
sprain, you're just like, you know, Will and I have talked
with these injuries. You're like, is this going to be
a one or two weaker or is this going to be a six weaker?
Is this going to be half the season?
It's crazy because it it for injuries that I deal with, it's

(25:57):
kind of on a minor level, right,because it's a sprain, but
they're so they're so frustrating to take care of and
so and there really hasn't been a good.
I mean, doing surgery is all great, but you're out for a
while and like you can't just dosurgery on everyone.
That's not the right answer, right.
So like, and you can pump them as much biologics as you want,
but it's still not the answer. I mean, we will to heard the

(26:18):
state so many times. Prevention is by far the best
medicine for injuries, right? You can prevent it if there's
something you can. If I had something to prevent
all my injuries, I would give itlike we had a better brace for
AC LS to prevent tears. The data is not there yet,
right, Like skiing and I think MCLS and linebackers or in in
lineman. But this, this is pretty

(26:39):
awesome. We'll pull up that.
I want to talk about injury prevention now because we're
kind of talking about it, but I want to run through that number,
that 40% or think there was something like that up there.
Yeah. Can you pull?
That out? Yeah.
And as you're pulling that up, you know the one thing I'll tell
you sorry. Like we had, we had a guard who
is a chronic ankle sprain, you know, guy his entire life.

(27:01):
And I'm sure you see this and I'm sure people listening, you
know, there's going to be a handful of people of like just
sprain their ankle over and overand over to the point where
there's really there's no integrity of the ligament
anymore. And we, we had a guard who came
down on someone's foot in the middle of the game and his
lateral malleolus to the bone onthe outside hit the ground.
I mean, he rolled it so hard that it hit the ground And

(27:22):
everyone heard that from the andwe thought he just broke his
ankle. And, and so at that point, like,
you know, what kept them out wasthe bone bruise, not the, the,
the ligament damage. And so that's the other part of
this is like if you just chronically are sprained in your
ankle, like the integrity of theligaments become, you know,
useless. Yeah.

(27:42):
And, and now you're dealing withthese bone bruises because when
you roll the ankle, you know, the bone is hitting bone and,
and, and that's usually their pain and nose can take forever.
And, and you know, and, and there's not really anything you
can do with bone bruises other than like, we kind of just deal
with it. And eventually you got to work
your way through it. And so that that's another

(28:03):
reason to your point, like prevention is so key because
it's like if you get to that point, it's just really
difficult. Well, and also the surges are
long and not always successful. This might be a good segue will
at some point to have our our inhouse Dr. Yee on the episode to
talk about this for the phone Nicole, but like it is a good
point you're making. I mean, right, you have no when

(28:23):
your ligament's torn, it's no longer there.
You basically are adding anotherligament.
I don't want to oversell the product with the Piston, but the
idea behind that is like, that'sa, I'm sure that's not like a
super common injury, like it's common, but I'm sure it's not
like the so it might be hard to study, but the idea behind like
it's more than just about ankle sprains, right?
Only the public only sees ankle sprains.
Like we all know this. Well, we've seen this on the

(28:45):
injury report. The injury report's like, yeah,
he's got a knee sprain. It's just full.
It's not a knee sprain. There's something really wrong
with his knee. They just don't want to mention
it. So it's like he's got an ankle
sprain, but he may have much worse than that.
He may have a high ankle sprain.He may have a bone bruise there.
And obviously that scares the people or it can change the
perspective of the team. But you know, there is more that
these can prevent than just thatalone.

(29:07):
Yeah. Do you?
And do you say like, so if someone has this, would you
recommend both sides or just theinjured side?
How does it work for you guys? Like when your players have done
it, what do they usually do? Yeah, there are some some
athletes who are just really concerned about 111 foot one
ankle. But the idea, you know, you said

(29:27):
it and that's what we preach. It's it's prevention.
So it's like, why would you not wear in both?
And I think, you know, traditionally what athletes are
used to are these more bulky braces.
And so for them, the idea of wearing on both, they're like, I
don't want to do that, like forget that.
But then once they try the better guards and they're like,
oh, this is comfortable. You know, the adoption to use in

(29:47):
on both seems to be much higher.But what's the best feedback
you've gotten from a professional athlete wearing the
product? You know, with someone you know,
with a word of mouth or directlyto you Where you went?
Man, that that that was pretty good.
I think for me, honestly, it's just hearing like every athlete
say, like it feels like I'm not wearing an ankle brace, Like I'm

(30:10):
not, you know, it doesn't take up all the space in my shoe.
It just feels normal. And I think like at least when I
hear like an athlete say it feels normal, like that's huge
because I want them to be comfortable.
I want them to express their athleticism, do everything they
want to do. I don't want them thinking
about, oh, I have an ankle injury or an ankle problem or I

(30:31):
got this big bulky thing in my shoe that I have to worry about.
So for me, that's huge. Across the board.
So you could wear this with low mids and high right.
So it doesn't matter if if KD has a line out and he's got some
mids on or somebody'd wearing high tops, which I'm not seeing
a lot of high tops, but that's awhole other combination.
You know this low. So this this ankle protector can

(30:55):
you can wear with any kind of shoe.
So if they have endorsement sponsors, it's not going to
affect them because it is not bulky.
It'll fit with anything, right. So that has to be a plus as
well. Because now we're talking about
money sponsorship your own brandshirt.
Like we're thinking big, big picture when it comes to
something like that. Yep, Yeah.
I mean, that was, it's funny that you mentioned some of the

(31:17):
sponsorships because even like the early adopter players in the
NBA, you know, that was a big talk, like where the better
guards kind of logo is it can itbe shown?
Can it not be shown? Like there's lots of rules
around that. That's crazy.
Yeah. But yeah, you can wear it with
whatever you want. And I actually had a guy that I
was working with just two years ago who who had an injury.

(31:40):
You know, like, I think most athletes like when they're at
home, right, they want to wear sandals and everything.
And it's like, just wear the brace even when you're wearing
your sandal, like, just wear it.And so for them, they're, you
know, they thought that concept was formed, but then they loved
it and, you know, they saw the results.
So that always helps. Are you doing multiple colors
for like, you know, let's say it's Golden State, you got the

(32:02):
gold or are are you doing thingslike that?
The Bucks green and purple I. Know right, right, right now
it's white and black are are theoptions and mostly because, you
know, especially at the professional level, it's a lot
of like color of the socks and team socks.
What's allowed, what's not allowed?
It's more around that. But yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure as

(32:23):
the company continues to grow, especially like for youth, you
know, it's going to become like style, so for sure.
KK do you One thing we noticed we talked about the guardian
helmets on one of our episodes and some of the things on the
NFL now is saying, hey, listen, you know what, like you probably
need to wear this and like they start recommending it.
Like what do you think the data is going to have to show on this

(32:45):
thing before? I mean, like if I'm a team
owner, right, and I know that myplayers had six ankle sprains
and they refused to get surgery and I just paid this guy 20 or
$30 million a year, he doesn't want to wear a brace.
That's still a relatively reasonable cost.
When do you think the owners say, you know what doesn't
really matter if you don't like it or you don't want to use it

(33:06):
or not something that not like it, but like when does that?
But like at some point some of this technology comes in, right?
We know about this. It sucks, but then when the
player gets kind of forced into it, but like if you guys
eventually show that, I mean, that's that would be obviously
amazing for you guys to have that sort of reputation that
it's so good that the owners think you need it.
But that could be a situation where you're the tronic coach.

(33:26):
Like, listen, are you tired of getting ankle sprains?
Like you're gonna be out of Commission more like you need to
try this. You don't want to lose any more
money on your contract. Yeah.
And I, I, yeah, it's an interesting question.
And that's where it's like you got to get the players union
kind of behind it as well. You know, there's one NBA team
that does force players to wear ankle braces and, like, knee

(33:46):
pads for practice. And, you know, there's a lot of
pushback initially, but now it'sthe culture there, right?
I've been involved with conversations with players that
previously did not wear any sortof ankle protection, who've had,
you know, recurrent ankle injuries.
And it's like, OK, ownership does get involved and say, hey,
we got to do something, right? Like, nothing.

(34:07):
Like, we can't no longer do nothing.
So let's work with the athlete to figure out what's going to
work. And I think better guards is
going to ultimately start winning a lot of those kind of
conversations because again, if a guy who if an athlete who
doesn't like wearing ankle braces puts this on, it doesn't
feel like an ankle brace. And so now they're like, OK,

(34:27):
I'll try this. We'll pull up that slide and
show the comparison. I mean, I know we kind of talked
to this in nauseam, but you can do like the mobility high, low,
you have one more. Keep going, keep going right
down so you can see I mean, thisis what we have option wise,
right? Like I mean, you've got there's

(34:48):
some fancier looking ones, but nothing does what this does.
No one has the key is you check off all the highs right, high
protection, high mobility, high comfort.
You have to have all of those. The problem is it's really easy
to get the 1st the 2nd 2 if you have no protection yeah,
exactly. So you can do so you got to have
it's like it's like the it's themix of the two.
And so, you know, like when someone went up, players looking

(35:09):
at this, right, that's their alternative options.
So it's a huge niche too, right,like underserved, which is why I
think the technology is so cool.And having you on here discuss
this is really cool because it'ssomething we talked about and we
have not seen anything in the news or anything that's been on
the way to like help this. And the negative of ankle
springs is that they're not likesexy, right, like the Tommy John
surgeries or like the, you know,ACL tear.

(35:32):
So they don't get as much publicity.
But right now you can see it right here.
But the big data shows that obviously it's a problem.
I mean, one in one in four NBA players injure their ankle each
season. That's crazy.
And it's the most, as I mentioned, like if you just
take, it's agonizing how many ofthese you see.
Yeah, no. And, and, you know, that's the

(35:53):
other thing, like a player may kind of sprain their ankle and
it might be a pretty minor sprain and they miss a week and
you don't think much of it, but then it happens again.
And what we're talking about earlier, it's like these
recurring ankle sprains and how much worse it gets each time.
And so, you know, I think a lot of people think of it like the

(36:14):
first time anyone sprains their ankle, it hurts, right?
Like they're crying. It hurts so bad.
You ask someone who's like sprained it the 10th time and
they're like, yeah, it's not as bad, right?
And it's like, that's not a goodthing that, that that's much
worse than what what people think.
And so, yeah, I think there's, you know, obviously a massive
opportunity to help athletes across across sports to kind of,

(36:37):
you know, get ahead of this. Are you saying any, I, I know
we're talking about the ankle, right?
But you know, the big conversation this past NBA
season was the Achilles, right? And is there any data or
anything that leads up to like, let's say if you you have a bad
sprain on your right ankle and obviously doctor Garcia is right

(36:59):
up the alley here. You know, it's right, you know,
spraining your right ankle, it'snot healing right now.
You have some soreness in your calf and you know, now you'll
lead it into other injuries. Is there any data that kind of
shows any correlation with that?And I know we're talking apples
to oranges as far as the injury uptick that happened this
season, I believe it was seven NBA players had Achilles

(37:22):
injuries, 9 all together, including the two players that
got hurt in summer ball. I forgot their names so I don't
know. Or or am I going off on a a
whole different? You're going off on a tangent.
But you're. Helping with the question, it
would be, I would rephrase it because it was so it was well
put, but I would add a question in there to say is there a

(37:44):
future for better guards, pistonand other opportunities?
I'm not trying to give away yourfuture R&D, but you know the
idea is if it works that well inthe ankle, why the hell wouldn't
use it in other places? Yeah.
So I think to answer both of those, you know, I, I don't know
if there is clear data that shows ankle injuries, so like
Achilles injuries, but for sure,like there's plenty of research

(38:07):
that suggests after an injury, you know, movement patterns
change, which then, you know, that can affect more other
injuries, right? And so I think there's a, a link
there for sure to some degree, not to say that all Achilles
come from prior injuries, but for sure.
And that's why, you know, restoring normal movement is so

(38:28):
key. And that again, that's why I was
personally excited about better guards.
And then, yeah, to your second question, yeah, they're already
exploring the Pistons and in different like knee braces,
elbow bracing there. Yeah, there's lots more
opportunities to kind of apply this technology to other joints.

(38:49):
Yeah, this is cool. I'm already thinking about some
things in my head. I like the the MCLI, like some
ACL stuff. I mean, if you have a brace that
smooth and then you've got an acute piston thing like that is
pretty sick. It's funny, when I looked at
your product, I I saw the pistonand I learned about it, but I
didn't really get it until you showed it.
So today is pretty cool. It's a little eye opening.

(39:10):
So hopefully for the listeners too, they can see it.
I think. I mean, like I said before, like
the idea of putting like to me, like I put on these ankle braces
before the old ones suck, right?Like the stiff ones, they're
like this. I like, I wouldn't wear it like
I'm like, but if I had something, I'm going out and I
have a loose ankle. The other thing is like a lot of
people don't want surgery. I mean, no offense, but like I
do a lot of surgeries and like, you just don't want to have

(39:31):
surgery on your ankle. Ankle surgeries are hard.
They take longer to recover. The blood flow is different down
there. Listen, I have tons of friends
who've had ankle surgery. They do well sometimes, but
sometimes they don't. And so it's like, yeah, if
someone's like, why would you just do the ankle surgery?
I'm like, it's not 100% right. So if you have something that's
preventative, like I'll be honest with you, if there was a
brace good enough to stop peoplefrom dislocating their knee with

(39:53):
Acls, there probably would be less ACL surgeries, right?
Like people don't want surgery. They'd rather wear a brace if
it's comfortable. And so another point you made,
right, That person with the chronic AC, the chronic ankle,
they probably should have gottensurgery, but they're not ready
to. They're an NBA player and they
don't want to take the risk. So like that's another important
point. Or athletes, they don't want to
do anything until they're done with their career.
So that's even more important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

(40:16):
Yeah. It's funny, you know, like
coming from physical therapy background, like I, I think
myself, but I'm sure plenty of others like view surgery as like
a chance to reset everything. Like sometimes there gets to a
point where it's like you need the surgery, you need to reset,
but it's like you have to put inthe work, right?
And it's like the rehab is, you know, just as important as the

(40:38):
surgery. Like if you just have surgery
and do nothing, it's like usually those patients don't do
very well. I, I, dude, that's exactly
right. Like I spend my time in the
office. I'm like, my job is like an hour
or two hours maybe I talked to you a few times afterwards.
And then all the work is done with the physical therapists and
strengths and conditioning coaches.
And so you don't put the work in, you don't have patients.

(40:59):
Same surgery, same surgeon, fourdifferent patients same day at
the office. 2 are killing it, 2 are not killing it.
Exact same technique, right? There's a reason.
There's a lot of reasons there, but one of them is the work.
There's a really, there is a difference and it's hard.
You know when you get to the bottom of like and they won't
bring it up with you. Maybe you in the professional
level, they tell you, but in that one or two instance, if

(41:19):
you're seeing them, they might not say, oh, I stopped doing my
stuff. I only do it once a week, right?
You're like. That makes sense.
Yeah, and I think that's the bigdifference between professional
athletes and general population.Like professional athletes, like
they have teams of people to take care of them and making
sure they're motivated. Obviously it's their job to be
out there performing where the general population, like you

(41:43):
might see a physical therapist 2-3 times a week post surgery.
It's just not the same level. And then, you know, life gets in
the way, you're busy. I got school, I got the.
And then now next to your point,like you can have the exact same
thing and have some patients, patients do really well and
other patients do really poor. And so it's like, if you can
just avoid all that to begin with, it's so much better off.

(42:05):
Yeah, well, and I think I actually think it's much we
talk, we keep the professional stuff super sexy talk about like
you heard the word NBA on a podcast.
You're like, oh, this is interesting, right?
But like, to be honest, this is probably more important for non
NBA, right, The kids, right, Because like Curry's talking
about Davidson, right? Like that's before the NBA.
So like you have like this is the end.

(42:27):
Once you got to the NBA, you like we've seen this in Tommy
Johns. I do players all the time, these
young high school players, they have trashed UC LS, right, like
can we prevent these before thateven happens?
So like is this kind of like a concussion protocol like let's
get these ankle sprains down at the high school level, you know,
and I think that's something haswhat's better guards thoughts on
sort of the education. Obviously they're doing well

(42:48):
with the marketing, the products, they've done a good
job of the design. Like how does that work?
Because like that's a hard part,right?
Like you can only market so much, but you really got to get
the the buy in and and the lowerdown.
Yeah, athletics or the high school athletics or college is
honestly more important sometimes.
Yeah. And I think actually that, you
know, this year I think is a bigopportunity for them.
They did a a big partnership with the NBA Athletic Trainers

(43:11):
Association kind of built aroundthis of like, how do we spread
the word to athletic trainers across, across, you know, across
board, across levels, you name it.
You know, being the NBA AthleticTrainers Association, they a lot
of people look up to them and OK, what are they doing right?
What, what do they have? And so I think that
partnership's going to be huge to kind of reach the, the high

(43:33):
school levels. And that that's part of the
mission of the brand too, like reaching kids at a younger age
because, yeah, obviously if we can prevent much younger than
those, those kids are going to have a a better career, whether
that's professional or not, right?
And and they're, they're not going to be dealing with pain
and injuries as much. I think that's a win, win.

(43:53):
And then can I ask, I'm, I'm assuming you guys did NBA
because it's probably one of thehighest ankle sprain
populations. I mean, that's been your focus.
And then obviously, I mean, I'm assuming you're branching out to
other sports. I know you've got a lot of other
sports on that list, but your focus has been NBA because of
the highest, it's one of the highest ankle sprain
populations. Is that correct?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's kind of the initial

(44:14):
focus. Football, NFL like surprising
athletes responded really quick to it.
Baseball had a quick response. And then what was really
interesting, and I work with a couple of soccer players, you
know, soccer is so unique because those cleats are so
small and compact that like ankle braces are just out of the

(44:35):
question. If they do anything, it's
usually tape. And, you know, most tape is
like, after the first like, 10 minutes, whatever kind of
protection it provided is not there anymore.
And so now we're seeing as soccer players are starting to
get exposed to it, like, oh, this can really help.
You'd be surprised, you know, ankle, ankle sprain or you're

(44:56):
not surprised, but the the listeners would be surprised.
Ankle sprains and soccer playersare super hot.
Yeah. I mean I.
Had no idea. Williams, you know, she always
had her ankles, you know, you know, braces and things like
that. So, you know, tennis also is
probably a great sport. We just saw Roland Garros where
they're running back and forth and doing splits and sliding.

(45:19):
And I don't, I don't understand how they're not having higher
ankle injuries, but let alone maybe on the lower level they
are. So that's an interesting sport
as well. I think it's interesting too.
You always notice on this podcast you said you learned
something, right? Well, we learned so much from
everybody about these different sports and the injuries.
And no matter how much you thinkyou know, you know, This is why

(45:40):
I like getting people on, talking about this stuff,
hearing the details. It just really breaks everything
down to understand it better, right?
It's not just a product. It's like, no, this is a product
that's been tested, it's been revised, it's been improved.
We're on three-point O with two more follow-ups and I want to
kind of let you go so you're notbeing on all night.

(46:01):
First one is like, so I know we kind of advertised for the two
point O. Initially when I was working
with you guys to kind of get this podcast set up, it was a 2
point O. Now you're a three-point O.
What's the difference in the upgrade for the three-point O?
Yeah, mainly the positioning of of this little part here at the
bottom. So that like I said, like some
players and I think it's really dependent on the type of shoe
that they're wearing. Like they would feel like it

(46:23):
kind of dug in and so they'd move that up and out of the way.
So it's just yeah, totally removed that, but I know we're
no, no, the piston's the same. Yep.
And so that that's the same. That's tried and true.
So no reason to change that. It's really just creating more
comfort around the brace. And they did really the
three-point O is out now. So everyone is is getting that

(46:46):
now. Perfect.
And then I would say sort of kind of follow final question
and I know Will maybe has a fun question or something, who
knows. He's always got something hidden
there. The the, what's the future?
I mean we kind of talked about it, but what's the future for
you guys? Where do you guys see yourselves
in the next three to four years or what do you want to do for
these products? Yeah, I think, you know, as we
mentioned, like it's definitely going to be some expansion into

(47:10):
other joints, protecting other joints.
You know, obviously working withNFL guys like knees are big, a
big issue. And just lineman like you, you
said at MCLS are like, I think it might be the number one
injury for offensive and defensive lineman.
And so if if there's a way to help protect them, yeah, we're
going to do it. And so I think exploring what

(47:32):
other joints, how much of a difference we can actually
protect you. You mentioned the UCLL and, and
the elbow and, and pitchers, like, is there something here?
You know, we're exploring that. And so I think that's going to
be really interesting. And then just generally, like
the more adoption, the more people are hearing about it,
learning about it and understanding how beneficial it,

(47:53):
it will be for them. I think it's, it's going to be
the real focus. Awesome.
Great. I'll do a two-part question.
When you first came over, right?And I believe you, you mentioned
you came over for the Minnesota Timberwolves.
You show up to Golden State Warriors the year after the
surgery for Curry. What was the pressure like for

(48:15):
you saying, man, I'm coming overhere.
We know what the bread and butter is for Golden State right
now is making sure that we getting Curry back on the court,
you know, changing maybe his regimen.
Obviously he got bigger. I believe when he first came in
he had some hip issues and things like that.
So if you could explain some of that.
And my second part is what did it feel like winning ANBA

(48:36):
championship? Yeah.
So first part of that question is kind of interesting.
So I'll tell you my first day in, in the practice facility of
Golden State, I joined the team during the summer out in Vegas
during summer league. And then after summer league, we
come in my first day and I won'tsay who, but there's another

(48:57):
player who's dealing with a knee, a knee injury.
And he kind of put me to the test.
Like he didn't tell me what was going on.
I didn't know what was going on.And I just kind of like, hey,
something doesn't seem right. What's going on?
What's going on? You know, Long story short, you
know, he goes, you think I need surgery?
I was like, no, I don't, I don'tthink you need any surgery.

(49:17):
And he kind of starts, yeah, I told you I don't need surgery.
I told you I was like, what did I just what, what's going on?
So Long story short, but essentially he, he he had a a
small quad tendon tear that the team, you know, everyone's
trying to figure out and they kind of had settled on doing a
surgery and he was going to miss, you know, obviously the

(49:38):
beginning of the season. He really didn't want the
surgery for whatever reason. And so it's like, I can't, I
think we can, we can handle thisand, and kind of rehab him back.
And so to be honest, like I was literally like, am I going to
get fired on day one? Like what did I just cause?
And so thankfully it all worked out.
He played, he didn't miss any games that season, The player

(50:01):
with the knee, which was pretty awesome.
And so to be honest, like with Steph, the Steph is such a great
like dude and a good person. And, and I think he saw honestly
what we were doing with that other player in his knee.
And he's like, all right, just tell me.
And I also, I tell everyone all the time, I had the advantage of
like coming in and when they've tried millions of things and
it's like, OK, well, let's look at this one other thing.

(50:23):
It's like, let's just think outside the box and see how this
helps. And obviously it's a combination
of everything, right? Like it's the surgery, it's his
work that he put in on the rehabpart of it, his willingness to
like do what I was asking of himto try to help kind of change
some of his movement patterns a little bit.
And so it's everything that kindof made it like to me.

(50:43):
The stuff part was kind of easy.It was the other guy that I was
like, Oh my goodness, good. Test.
I will know that from now on. Good test.
Yeah, so and then winning the championship, I mean, it's yeah,
it's incredible. I think you hear a lot of people
say like there's so much work that goes into I think any, any

(51:04):
sport, right, Professional sports, like you're in it day in
and day out, holidays, weekends.You, you know, I kind of told
everyone, like when I work in the NBA, it's like 12 years, you
know, seven days a week. I've, you know, I got maybe a
week off here or there in the offseason over that course.
And it's just like you put so much time and energy and just

(51:25):
trying to win. It's like one team wins.
That's it. Like it, you know, it takes a
little bit of everything to cometogether.
So it was incredible. And at the same time, it's like,
OK, what else? How do we get better, you know,
and you get like that. Next year, repeat.
Yep. And, and that's the thing about
sports, it's like you, you win it and you celebrate it and then
it's like a couple days later, it's like, all right, let's get

(51:46):
back to it. Let's how do we get better?
So it's it's pretty wild. Last thing, if you had your
choice, when you win an NBA championship, should you be able
to take the trophy and celebratethe way they do with the Stanley
Cup? Everybody gets it.
You get a few days. You could travel with it, take
pictures, put babies on it, whatever it is.

(52:07):
What, what, what? How do you think?
What if you could change one thing for the championship?
What, what, What would it be? Would it be something like that?
Yeah, man, that's a good question.
Because I think me personally, and, you know, I can't, it's not
really fair to speak for players, but I don't think
players get caught up in the trophy as much as the fans do.

(52:28):
Like for the fans, it's really cool and it's special to like
see it, to feel it, to touch it.But I think for the players,
coaches, staff, everyone, it's like it's the work that you know
it. Like it's the memory of like the
whole process that matters more.So maybe for the fans sake, it
would be cool to travel around and get it out there.
I think some teams try to like, show it off a little bit.

(52:50):
But yeah, I think for them for sure it would matter.
I think for the players, it probably doesn't matter to them
as much. Makes sense?
I like it. Listen, thank you so much for
your time. As Doctor Garcia mentioned
throughout the show, we we learned so much.
We're really excited about the product as well.
It's very unique. It's very different.

(53:12):
And all the points that you highlighted, it just illustrates
why, you know, players should beusing it, but just not only at
the professional level, but obviously at the amateur level.
We'd love to see some high school kids, yeah, use it as
well because maybe then that allows them, you know, to not
have these injuries and maybe their career could go a little
bit further because we've seen so many talented individuals

(53:34):
never make it to the highest level.
So Doctor Garcia, last words, but KK, thank you.
So. Much Just say I'm going to get a
lot of ankle sprains out of thisepisode.
Ask me about my better guards. Yeah, I know we got to show that
off in the office. This is awesome.
So anyhow, I I I love it. Thank you so much for being on.
This is really cool. I love the new tech and anything
to help the players and the the kids and not have to do as many

(53:57):
surgeries is good. So thanks for coming on.
I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank. You shut up, Danielle.
Thank you. Danielle, we didn't hear from
you. Thank you.
Danielle, thank you. Take care.
Thanks. All right.
Bye.