February 17, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of Spotlight On we are joined by Marco Van Kalleveen, CEO at DKV Mobility, who shares his transformative journey from consulting to leading DKV Mobility, offering insights into the dynamics between private equity investors and operational teams. Marco discusses the importance of purposeful leadership, M&A strategies, and the role of digitalisation and AI in driving business success while emphasising stakeholder engagement for sustainable growth.
• Marco's career path and motivations from McKinsey to CEO
• The significance of building strong relationships with private equity investors
• Evolution of operating teams within the private equity landscape
• Insights for transitioning from consulting to operational roles
• The role of purpose-driven leadership in organisational success
• Strategic approaches to M&A and integration practices
• The impact of digital transformation and AI on business growth
• Aligning individual contributions with company objectives for enhanced engagement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to Spotlight On the podcast that
brings together business leaders, entrepreneurs and experts
covering a range of topics.
I'm Nicholas Barton, founderand CEO of the Barton
Partnership.
We're an award-winningexecutive recruitment and
consulting solutions firmproviding permanent search and
independent consulting servicesacross strategy, sustainability
(00:28):
and M&A, data and analytics, andtransformation and change.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
On this episode of Spotlight On.
We welcome Marco van Calvin tothe podcast.
Marco is the CEO of DKVMobility, the leading European
B2B platform for on-the-roadpayments and solutions, with
more than 17 billion euros oftransaction value and over
320,000 customers.
Marco's journey began with anMBA at Harvard Business School
(00:54):
before working for over a decadeat McKinsey Company in the US
and Europe with a focus ontransformational growth.
He later left as partner wherehe joined Bain Capital Private
Equity in London.
Later, marco stepped into CEOand management board roles,
leading transforming and growingmulti-billion international
businesses, initially at TNTExpress, a public global
(01:17):
overnight parcel deliverycompany, and later at LeasePlan,
the largest car leasing companyin the world.
He now sits as CEO at DKVMobility.
He is also the author ofUnleash your Transformation.
Marco, it's a pleasure to haveyou with us today on this
episode of Spotlight On.
As an overview from McKinsey toBaincap and obviously now at DKV
(01:40):
.
What were your key motivatorsbehind all of those different
career moves?
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
And in hindsight it makes sense, but maybe at the
time you have to make the choiceand have to think things over.
I think the first move was outof business school.
I did my MBA in the US, inHarvard Business School, and
then I had to decide what wouldbe my next step and I decided I
want to learn.
Still, I was still young at thetime.
Where can I learn?
(02:09):
Where can I learn?
And I already had a vision ofbeing a CEO in the long term and
also be able to changecompanies.
I thought where can I learn themost?
And then McKinsey came on mypath and I joined McKinsey and I
did that for 10 years, first inthe US, then in Europe.
It has been a fantasticexperience and I learned tons.
I see many different companies,many different industries in
many different countries.
You think, do I want to stay aconsultant for life or not?
(02:31):
And I concluded no, no, thatwas not my intent of joining.
Although it's comfortable,although it's an amazing company
, an amazing firm, I said no, Iwant to make a next move.
And then I thought what shouldbe my next 10-year horizon?
Not my next step particularly,but my next 10-year horizon, 10
years time.
I want to be able to leadlarger, bigger businesses.
(02:52):
And then Bain Capital came andsaid would you like to join the
portfolio team?
And I thought that's actually avery interesting step away from
consulting to go into aportfolio role at a private
equity firm and I learnedanother set of skills and
another set of perspectives.
You learn the investment side,you learn the M&A side, you
learn the exit side.
There are so many otherelements that maybe as a
(03:13):
consultant you haven't touchedupon that much.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So I did that for several years.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
But then really, really, there was a drive to
really start leading myselfsomething and that led to the
next two, three steps, as I havelost years.
First in T&T Express, where Ijoined the management board of a
large public company and had tolead a large, big division
around the globe.
And then to LeasePlan, whichwas a large private equity
buyout at the time.
One of the largest car leasingcompanies in the world was
(03:39):
bought out by a private equityconsortium and I joined that
management team and left theEuropean business.
And for the last six years I'vebeen leading as a CEO DQV
Mobility, which was a partinvestment of CVC.
So I've seen the private equitypart and actually these roles.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I joined very much the T&T role, the lease plan
role and the DQV role, Because Icould really lead these
businesses.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It was also my original intent when I started
my career For sure, and I guess,having worked in consulting,
having worked in private equityas an operating partner and
subsequently been an operatorand now a CEO for a couple of
private equity-backed assets,what would you say has been your
experiences of building ahealthy working relationship
(04:22):
between a private equity fundand that portfolio, both being
on the fund side but thenactually being on the other end
as an operator?
The?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
experience I've been on a portfolio team has been
tremendously helpful for me.
To be a CEO where privateequity investors are part of,
you understand much better howthe private sector side thinks
about the business, how theyoperate, how they incentivize,
how their world looks like,which makes it much easier to
really stand shoulder toshoulder and work together.
So that helped me a lot.
(04:54):
How they look at the world.
You have to understand howthese deal partners, how they
look at the case.
What were their originalinvestment case.
You have to be really upfrontwith them about this is the
strategic direction you want totake.
These are the initiatives youwant to take.
Bring them along in the journey.
So I would be very disciplinedin laying out in a one, two year
board agenda.
But these are all the topicsthat will come up in the future.
(05:15):
We'll address all of them.
I would have a lot of formaland informal contacts with them,
sometimes several times a week,just to quickly catch up.
Even five-minute call like thisis what we'd like to do, or
this is what's happening, tomake a sense of really being in
a boat together.
If you don't stay that close,you get more and more questions
from the investor side and youget more like a ping-pong of
(05:35):
question and answer and I thinkthat can be a waste of time and
I think working together on thebusiness is the way to go, and I
really enjoyed that.
Actually, I really enjoyedhaving a PE partner next to me
as a CEO to really bounce thingsoff and make things happen, but
in a common agenda.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
We've been quite privileged that we see the
market at a very macro view howoperating teams are structured,
how deal teams interact with ourassets, but then how CEOs and
other board members share theirexperiences of working with
investment teams and operatingteams as well, and I guess your
time at Bain Capital the sort ofevolution of the operating team
(06:11):
since that point has probablygone through a few cycles.
Really interesting to hear howit was to be in an operating
team back in 2009, and maybe howthat has perhaps evolved to
your exposure to operating teamsnow.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So when I joined, as you said, it was in the
beginning the thought that PEfirms started operating teams.
I joined in the beginningstages and at that time people
were finding the role, definingthe role, what is it all about?
You're not a CEO, you're not adeal team, but you are
responsible for driving thechange and creating the value
with the company.
So how much do you work withthe CEO?
(06:44):
How much do you supportinitiatives or not?
So that was a bit of a findingyour way, how to create value in
that setting.
What I experience now we havenow people who have done this
for a decade plus andexperienced about it, and they
are also much more in glue withthe deal team.
There's a much more clarityabout what do you do, what does
the portfolio team do?
What does the portfolio team do?
(07:05):
What does the deal team do?
The language is aligned.
People know immediately okay,in this deal situation, you do
these four things or these fivethings.
So I think these roles havebecome much more clear and much
more aligned in the wholeprocess.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
What I see, I think, when we meet with people who are
looking to leave the MBB orother similar strategy houses.
For those who are wanting tomove into private equity as an
operating partner, that is oftenseen as the holy grail, if you
will.
What advice would you have forsomeone that is either looking
(07:38):
to leave consulting for thefirst time, or perhaps is in
their first or second move outof consulting?
For achieving that end goal,what would you say has been the
recipe for success?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
There's a pre-step.
So what do you do when you areat consulting?
So if you want to be good atthis role in consulting, you can
choose where you focus on.
If you become a very narrowspecialist or a functional
specialist, that's not veryhelpful in a mid-cap PE type
environment where you have todeal with multiple topics, for
(08:07):
example.
So in consulting can you dealwith companies or situations
that reflect a bit the PE game,or where PE is invested, where
you have a broad set of topicswhere you have to make change
happen over multiple years.
So have you seeked out thesetype of consulting engagements
where you work on a broad set ofissues, where you work with
leaders that make things happenand where you work on programs
(08:29):
that does longer term Versus?
I work at a very big client andthen there's only a small part I
do there but I'm never part ofthe board, or I'm not part of
the major decisions but I dooperationally a smaller thing.
So I think there's a choicebefore where you focus your
activities as a consultant on, Ithink, being a bit broader.
Having seen multiple things,having seen both strategy, org
(08:50):
operations, different elements,have seen longer-term programs
as helpful, because that skillset is valuable once you get
into an operating role, Then,once you get out of consulting,
it could be helpful to get acouple of years of real
operating experience under yourbelt.
I think that's extremelyhelpful and appreciated by the
bigger PE firms.
So now again, what context doyou do that?
(09:13):
If you get an operatingexperience in just a very
slow-moving large corporateenvironment, that's maybe not
the experience they seek.
But if you step into somethingwhich was complicated, had to
change, had to structure,restructure, had to grow, had to
really change.
I think, if you do that forseveral years and you are one of
the players in a team that doesthat?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I think that's extremely appreciated.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And then, of course, if you've done that, how do you
get to the PE seats?
Players like yourself recruitpeople for that.
But like yourself, recruitpeople for that.
But also look at people whohave made that step, talk to
them, figure out.
It's a bit of a networkingelement as well.
To get in those roles which youdo while you're a consultant.
I think the first step out isinteresting and important and
(09:57):
then how you make a transitioninto that.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Looking back on your career, would you say your
intention from the beginning wasto become a CEO and therefore,
almost by sheer purpose, you'vetried to open the doors that
you've had opened for you, oryou think it's been more by
chance, as you've become moresenior.
Certain doors have thereforebeen open to you and that's how
you've achieved those.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I always wanted to become a CEO of a larger company
and make things happen andreally want to be in an
environment where you can makechange happen.
Then, along the journey, Ifigured out that.
Pe is a good environment forthat because people want to make
an investment.
They stay five, six years in.
Then they have to sell thecompany, exit the company.
So with a strong agendafollowing that.
(10:36):
So you work on an eight,nine-year horizon actually to
make things happen in a quiterational fast decision-making
environment, so I really enjoyedthat, but that I learned along
the way To lead a company.
I decided I made moves aboutlearning in the beginning of my
career.
I prioritized learning overalready taking a role like that,
so that's why I went toMcKinsey and to Bank Capital.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
And once.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I got more the range of a larger business.
I could apply all theselearnings and all these skills
in that situation.
It took a bit of patience toget to the right position.
I also know people who go inearly and say, after a couple of
years of consulting, let me doit.
But I have found that theseyears have been very precious
and very helpful.
I've seen many things, manyelements.
That's why I can do my job nowmuch better than if I would have
(11:17):
done it in a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And in terms of your current role at DKV You've
obviously been there now foralmost six years Could you maybe
just talk me through the rolethat you're in, what you're
responsible for, how that rolehas evolved over the last six
years?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
If you are coming in and in a situation where a PE
buys into or buys the wholeasset.
you have to very quickly lay outwhat could be the strategy, the
value creation path and alignpeople around it.
So you have to get your headaround very quickly be the
strategy, the value creationpath and align people around it.
So you have to get your headaround very quickly in the
beginning.
What's really going on in thisindustry?
What is myth and what isreality?
What are facts?
What are just emotionalelements?
(11:54):
What's the real strength of thecompany?
What is the areas you cannotleverage that much?
What can you leverage?
So in the beginning it's allabout getting your head around
it.
Then you try to distill veryfast what is the roadmap where
the strategy needs to happen.
And then you need to look foryour team Very quickly.
You have to assess what is theright people internally or
externally.
Typically in all the situationswhere I create a combination of
(12:17):
great talents from the outside,great talents from the inside,
to create a team and make thatmanagement team happen, and then
get an operating mode ofexecution of your strategy in
clear initiatives and roadmapsand yearly plans, et cetera.
And you have to do it in adisciplined way.
And then you need to createmomentum.
Right, that's all easy, setthese plans, but how do you keep
tech time and keep thesebusinesses moving?
(12:38):
and make decisions happen andcelebrate victories and move and
create momentum, and then atsome point there, is an exit at
the horizon.
How do you structure for that?
What are the elements you needto do so in all these phases,
from getting your head around abusiness, creating a strategy,
getting your team, getting itoperationally moving, shifting
the organization, getting winson the board, and then to an
exit your role shifts a bit inall those steps.
(13:02):
Your role and also where you putyour energy on has to shift
along the steps, which I verymuch enjoy.
It's a bit of a cycle you haveto go through.
That's how you could see overthose years.
It's a bit of a cycle, atypical cycle you go to in P&E
investment where as a.
CEO.
You have to have differentemphasis and different energy.
If you want an example, well,if you establish your team and
normally do that within thefirst, say, six, 12 months, you
(13:26):
don't want to change your teamall the time.
Right, that's then the team inthe boat.
But that phase is a veryimportant beginning phase to get
the right management team inplace with the right incentives
and the right ways of behaviors.
But you don't want to change intwo years or three years, right?
So in every phase there's acertain element which is
extremely critical and what'sless critical?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
a certain element which is extremely critical and
what's less critical.
It's interesting to hear howyour style and your approach and
your focus is very much inharmony with the stage that the
business is at in relation toits deal cycle, and actually
that's a really interestingperspective for someone that is
considering a move into PE.
Marrying the two together willbe, critical to ensure that your
(14:06):
objectives and your ownpriorities are matching the
priorities of the investor.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Yeah, I think it's very important to figure out.
PE is a broad definition butevery asset can be in a
different phase, every industrycould be in a different phase,
every financial capital marketcan be in a different phase.
So, for example, it's now noteasy to IPO in this context.
Two years ago, everybody couldIPO.
So the things are changing overtime and you have to figure out
what type of person are you.
(14:32):
Are you more a person who wantsto operate things in a clarity?
There are certain situationswhere there's a clear strategy
and they need a CEO, but theroad continues.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Or are you more like hey?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
let's get a new clarity and then to create a bit
new momentum.
That's a different type of gameand nothing is good or bad.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But these are different games and figure out
which environment you fit best Ithink is important in terms of
dkv and that journey thatthey've been on.
I'm already saying there's beenseveral acquisitions that have
been made during that time inorder to expand that digital
portfolio and regional expertise.
How have you gone aboutintegrating these acquisitions
(15:08):
into the business and what rolehas that played from an
innovation perspective that'sbeen able to keep DKV ahead of
the curve.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
When I arrived, the company was almost already 90
years old and had never done anyacquisitions.
I knew strategically toaccelerate our agenda, our
geographical footprint, as youdescribed, but also our
technology capabilities.
We had to move there.
Now we've done 15 deals since,but the company mainly
organically grew, but it wascomplementary and we
(15:38):
strengthened our capabilities.
In terms of how to integratethem, it depends a bit.
I think there's no one way todo this.
Certain companies, we're veryclose to our platform.
You combine it with yourbusiness right, so you integrate
it fully.
On the other hand, you havebusinesses which you want to buy
as a capability.
So we bought on technology playand transport management.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I'm not going to numb you with that, but it's a
certain technology play.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
We bought one of the European leaders.
We kept it relativelystandalone, but with them we
developed a new service for ourcore platform.
We leveraged their capabilities.
The worst thing would have beento put our own culture,
processes, everything on thattechnology play, because then it
would limit it.
But for that play we said, okay, we acquire that, keep them
(16:27):
relatively standalone, but withthat capability these people
have already built up fordecades.
And how do you understand themarket?
We develop a new servicetogether and there's a spectrum
of everything in between.
So each of these acquisitionswe did, some are fully
integrated, some are morestandalone, and then, if you
integrate there somewhere, morestandalone, and then, if you
integrate, there are certainthings that are prerequisite,
like certain reporting certainway you deal with people et
(16:49):
cetera.
So that's kind of what everybodyhas to do.
But in other elements you haveto be really smart.
What to integrate and notintegrate.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I learned that a lot.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Also, mckinsey, that you have to be careful for what
I call.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
M&A tourism where the mothership who buys?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
something in a great place, just wants to go by and
tells how things are working orshould work.
No, no, no, no, no.
So I always make a deal withthe management team that we buy.
So if you feel you get morestifled instead of helped, you
call me.
So make sure that the entitythat you buy keeps on thriving.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
We see a lot of buy and builds within private equity
.
We see M&A acting as a keygrowth lever for a lot of
businesses, commonly withinprivate equity, and I guess when
done right it works very well,but equally, if not done right
it can be quite damaging.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
What I've seen is you need to have a very clear M&A
strategy because things come toyou and some people
openistically react.
So you need to understand whatyou really want to have for the
next couple of years to add toyour business and what are your
criteria.
So what is your non-negotiables, for example, what type of
multiples you want to pay, whattype of quality of the
management team?
You need to have a couple ofviews on what your criteria are.
(18:03):
I think the other thing youneed to have is a very good
process how you evaluate anddecide these things.
So we set up a very efficient,quick process how a pulse gets
developed, how decisions aremade, how that even gets
escalated to a supervisory boardand to the PE firm.
We do this yes or no veryquickly.
So you need to build up clarityabout the strategy and clarity
about the process.
(18:23):
I would strongly recommend that.
And many companies maybe don'tdo that that often.
You need to be, really clearwho's internally the owner of
the deal, but also to make it asuccess afterward.
And they need to make reallyclear, if you just discussed
about.
You can have pretty standalonewhere you leverage maybe
specific capability or specificknowledge to fully integrate
(18:44):
into your business, but you needto make aware of all the
stakeholders in your company andall the different functions
what you expect from that.
M&A, Because the worst thing isto get stuck in the middle.
So a bit integration, but notfully.
Then that serves none of thesecompanies.
So it's much better to say okay, that's clear.
This might stand alone, withsome minimum governance around
it.
That's fully integration, andthis is the year and a half or
(19:07):
year integration path.
Sure, and then we know successor not and who's responsible.
So I think that's a logic thatneeds to get work, and then you
need to consistently evaluatehow this M&A went.
So it's always easy to have aninvestment case, anchor tier et
cetera up front.
But you need to learn honestly,brutally, is this working, Not
working?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
So there's an art to it and a process and how to make
M&A work in this contextparticularly if you want to
accelerate M&A, or a companythat's never done M&A, so I'll
give you one example, if it'shelpful, dkv.
As I said, 90 years without anyM&A but it was an M&A
department and I said, okay, wehave to do M&A, give have to do
M&A, give us a strategy to bedeveloped and I thought how do
(19:47):
we get this thing moving soliterally?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
in my first month we identified a target.
I met the owners on the otherside and I said we will close
this deal together in fourmonths from now.
Pick your agenda, we pick adate and by that date we close
it.
And they thought these guys arecrazy.
I was crazy, could?
never do that, but the date wasset we did all the work and the
(20:11):
deal was closed.
So that gave a lot of trust andmuscle in the organization to
get deals done.
So you need to find alsocatalysts to get M&A moving.
So once you have to make achange you need to get what I
call points on the board.
M&a is this if you do a verycomplicated M&A first that you
lose or goes off the rails, it'snot helpful.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
If you have an M&A agenda of multiple M&As for the
next three four years.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
So you need to make sure, as a CEO, that you pick
the right one first that you gopretty fast in a professional
way and that you make that asuccess Because that creates
muscle.
Capacity for change grows.
So once you've done one M&A,you learn have you done three?
Number six, seven, eight, nine,ten.
It becomes even easier.
So you need to make sure howyou get up the learning curve
and the change curve in theorganization.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And I mean it's just one example, but you can take
many other areas in the businesswhere you want to change how
you create momentum by firststep, second step, third step.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
One of the real hot topics in the market for the
last definitely 12 months, maybeeven longer, has been around AI
.
I think every business has adifferent opportunity but also
risk factor to AI.
How has the emergence of AIimpacted DKV and what challenges
or opportunities do you thinkit presents for the business?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I think you have to be always careful for hypes
Always.
I've seen so many come and go,and this is an extension of a
development that you see inbusinesses.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
It has to do with digitalization and awareness of
the power of data.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And then, on top of that, you can work with AI tools
to get even better insights andmake better decisions and
create better services for yourcustomers.
So we have been on this journey.
We said, okay, digitalizationis key, and so we have been on
this journey, we said, okay,digitalization is key, and we
made massive steps along thatway, Therefore also data is key,
so we set up data in a properway how to do that get the right
(21:56):
team in.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
But then we also saw already, even before AI boom, it
happened that these types oftools are relevant.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
So we seeked out one of the key partners at the time,
which was Microsoft, and theypicked us one of the key
partners at the time, which wasMicrosoft, and they picked us
one of the global partners towork with them already, even
before Jet CDP became almostmainstream to start working with
us and pioneering with us.
So we decided, yes, we want tobe pioneering.
We didn't want to do it for theshow for the outside world.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
None of these.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
So it's a different factor.
I think you have to do what'sreally meaningful, so you pick
the right partners, you pick theright use cases.
You don't do it.
For PR to look good, you needto really look with the eye on
the ball, do you?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
have all the elements in place.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Who's my partner If you cannot do it on your own?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
you have the right team that understands this.
You have the right priorities.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
And then do we have a real clean roadmap of
initiatives instead of justscrambling and doing many things
.
So it's all about makingmeaningful steps again.
Then AI can be extremelypowerful.
Ai is relevant in certainspecific areas in each company
at this stage.
How do we deal with that?
And how we make that work andhow do we measure that?
That's helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And how do we create the environment?
From the right data, the rightteam the right digital
environment, that can be helpful.
So I think again it's one ofthose things.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
It's just a development of technology that
you have to deal with.
What I personally don't thinkis this massive hype and down,
because maybe a year ago peopleoverestimated it.
Some people underestimate itnow and go no, no, it's relevant
, it's important and I think youneed to build in your strategic
logic and in your initiativeswhere it makes sense and keep
your eyes wide open.
Is it working?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
or not?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
And if it's working, how can we scale it up?
So I think that that's theattitude we took and that's why
we're pretty advanced in whatwe're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
That perspective is quite refreshing, I think, from
the event that we hosted andsome of the answers that we
received.
It was, from what I understood,a topic that many people lacked
enough of the understanding ofwhat the potential really is,
and that's perhaps where thefear came or the fear of missing
out, I should say, because thefear is, if you don't capitalize
, someone else will, and that'sthe biggest risk to any business
(23:58):
that you'll lose market shareto the next disruptor.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
It's one of the topics you have to deal with as
a company?
Sure, but you need to organizein a proper way that you get
some results out of it, For sure, and doing that out of fear or
out of panic or out of highemotion is not helpful in a PE
context.
In a PE context, you want toimprove this company in four or
five years and with an agendafor the next three, four years.
Of course, in most companiesthere's a data, digital and an
(24:23):
AI type of agenda.
It would be almost weird not tohave that agenda.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
But that's one of the elements of your agenda and how
you organize.
For that and in terms of yourown belief around what's been
key to you staying relevant andmaintaining success in both
competitive but dynamiclandscapes, particularly with
the demands that a privateequity fund has.
What do you feel you've beengood at in order to stay so
relevant across the duration ofyour career?
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I think every person is different, but I've seen not
only for me, but I've seen manyother people.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
But I think what is relevant as a leader.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
You are the ultimate 24-7 responsible person to lead
this company to a better future,and you need to have a picture
about what that better future is.
If you don't can articulate infour or five years, success is
there and people don'tunderstand that you get wobbly
because then you react to AI.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
To a dinner here, to a dinner there, no, no, if
that's what we try to achieve.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
You need to keep your eyes open and learn
consistently, but not getdistracted by minor things.
You have to have a course whereyou want to bring the ship.
That's the goal of the captain,I think, if they realize that,
as you're ultimately responsible, it's all about a team.
So who is the team?
And it's a very importantquestion.
And so it starts with amanagement team.
(25:46):
Who's part of that?
People, as a management team,feel that it's one team or
they're just representing theirown area in that team.
No, no, it has to be one team.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Are people motivated?
Do they have enough?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
capabilities?
Do they have enoughresponsibilities?
Are they thriving?
So, if the team thrives, andthere's a clear, compelling
vision, that's already a way togo.
Then you say how do you createan organization and a culture
that supports that?
You need to have a culture thatpeople want to progress.
Progress is happiness, so youneed to make sure that people
(26:16):
progress, that things are moving.
So, for example, in ourbusiness, everybody has their
top five priorities and theyknow them from each other.
We share them with pride.
Every slide, the first slide, Ihave to my boards.
These are the priorities forthis year and this is what every
slide at first, I have to myboards.
These are the priorities forthis year and this is what I'm
doing and everybody has that, soyou create clarity about how
everybody is contributing.
You need to have an organization, you need to have a purpose.
(26:36):
If you don't have a clearpurpose, from why do we exist as
a group of people?
What do we want to achieve forsociety?
Then people optimize forthemselves.
So there are many topics youcan bring together, but I think
the true north you're ultimatelyresponsible to bring that
company to a better future andthink about night and day about
it and what you need to do forthat Learn, bring the best
(26:57):
people along.
Drive to that direction isabsolutely key and therefore you
need to learn, you need toimprove yourself every day, but
that's your ultimateresponsibility.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And do you think that it's always achievable to align
what's best for the business aswell as what's best for the
fund?
That's a very good question.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
You need to do what's right for all the key
stakeholders for the long termand in principle that is also
the right thing for a PE firm ifthey want to successfully sell
a business after four or fiveyears.
So you have to have what I callthree horizon agenda.
There's always a short-termagenda.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You need to get some improvements right now,
Otherwise a PE firm gets nervous.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
But also an organization doesn't see
progress.
I gave you an example aboutthat M&A deal.
But if you don't seeshorter-term movement, you have
a second horizon the currentbusiness for the current three,
four, five years.
How to improve it and sometimestaking initiatives takes longer
time.
But you also need to put seedsin the ground for your five, six
, seven, eight, how you willgrow then and how you make sure
this company thrives then I havefound, if you become explicit
(27:58):
to the PE firm and the deal,partners this is the direction
you want to go, these are ourKPIs and this is our value
creation bridge.
To get there, that's the planthat we have, then interstitials
come and align it up front.
If then, for example, ad hocquestions come from a PE firm
(28:21):
who reads something in theFinancial Times or the Wall
Street Journal, or had a bodythat says, oh, this is important
, then you can refer back, butthis is our plan.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Maybe that's the topic, but maybe you should wait
for next year about the topic,because this is what we're
driving for, so you need tofocus on the future where you
want to go and get stakeholdersbehind, if you start focusing
only on the PE firm, what theywant.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
They have three, four investments to deal with.
They maybe had a bad night'ssleep or a good night's sleep.
You, they have three, fourinvestments to deal with.
They maybe had a bad night'ssleep or a good night's sleep.
You cannot steer a companyabout what only deal partner
makes him or her happy all thetime.
But you need to take that intoaccount.
But you need to have a dialogueabout yeah, but for the company
, that's the right direction togo.
So I think sometimes there canbe tension.
(29:04):
Normally it's not in the startand the middle of a program.
It gets more to an exit whereI've seen there could be tension
.
They are roads separate but inthe beginning I found people are
mostly aligned because you wantto create a value, you want to
create a much better company infour or five years, because also
for the e-firm there's muchmore value when you sell it.
So there should be a good storyalso for year six, seven, eight
, yeah, so, so there's a logicwith that.
(29:26):
But once you get closer to anexit the company needs to
continue with all thestakeholders.
Maybe there's a P exit.
Derek could have some tension.
You need to be very explicitabout it, discuss it right and
open this.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's one of the questions that we're often asked
when speaking about anopportunity in a private
exit-backed business that ismaybe about to go through an
exit or has just been acquired,and it's ensuring that the fund
is able to confidently instillthat buy-in from the CEO and the
management team in order to becommitted to the cycle.
(29:58):
And obviously there aremechanisms that financially
incentives people, but I thinkethically and from a values
perspective, it's important thatfunds are able to also
articulate what their prioritiesand objectives are in order to
keep people like yourself.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
I think it's very important Start a journey with
them in the end.
Like what success for you as aPE firm in five, six years.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
What?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
type of exit do you envision?
Is this an IPO exit, anindustry sale?
Is it a rollover?
Is it selling to another PE orwhatever the plan is?
Or what do you think is yourprioritization of that?
Because that determines how youmake some moves up front.
If you want to do an IPO infour or five years, you need to
get a company IPO ready.
There's a lot of work to bedone for that.
You cannot just say half a yearbefore we want to do an IPO.
If it's more an industry sale,well, who could be the partners?
(30:44):
Exit is, I think, with a PEfirm upfront, continuously along
the journey.
Are we still on that track?
Are you guys having a dualtrack or are you thinking a
different track?
And then you need to have a planthat once you sell it for
somebody else, what is thefinancial plan or strategic?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
plan for the coming years as management.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
The better PE firms.
They have a reputation to keepup.
If they sell an asset and thatasset does well with the next
owner, that's beneficial to themin the long run.
Because if they sell an assetand it's doing worse than was
thought, their reputation andpeople pay less for these assets
of that PE firm down the road.
So I think if you have along-term PE firm that wants to
(31:20):
build a real firm and ageneration of people and next
generation of people internallythere is a benefit of saying we
need to get the right value.
You understand me.
Of course there's a negotiationelement to it.
But you cannot dress up thebride to extreme because then
the next guy or situation has aproblem and it also hurts the PE
.
So you ought to have a greatstory and it's a backed up story
(31:42):
.
That's why I'm investing alsoin this third horizon.
How can you have substantiation, say there's a great plan with
a great financial logic for thenext four or five years after
the exit, and that's true.
That's a good plan but not amade-up stuff.
But if that's your commitment,I need to invest right now,
already in certain initiatives.
That's why I'm investing in AI.
So if there's a good plan andstrong growth and financial
prospects, that's the help ofeverybody.
(32:02):
If you milk the company anddon't invest and you make up a
story, I think for the good PEfirms that's not helpful either,
right, because that will comeout and it hurts their
reputation and people down theroad will pay less for their
assets.
So I think that alignment ofthere should be a good plan
going forward as well.
How do you do that?
I think that's helpful to alignand have that dialogue.
(32:23):
There is a topic always calledmind the exit.
You have it in the underground.
Mind the exit right or mind thestep.
I have it in the underground.
Mind the exit right or mind thestep.
I think you need to be aware ina PE is a beautiful thing.
They are in there for severalyears and there's an exit.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So what is that exit?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And when's it likely going to happen?
Under what conditions?
What do we need?
So it's also extremelyimportant to understand what
type of return does that PE fundneed to have, more or less with
that asset?
You need to understand that asmanagement.
So I'm pretty aware.
I ask normally what does yourmodel look like?
What was your originalscenarios?
How were you funded this?
What would be your money andmoney multiple in four or five
years with these type ofdividends, with this type of
(33:00):
exit and this type of exitmultiple?
When will you be happy?
When will you internally be ahero?
So you need to understand whereyou are targeting to it.
Sure, you understand what I'msaying?
Yeah, so those type of logics,how we get along that road.
It's a normal dialogue to haveIf you're unaware what for them
successes or their internalmodels look like in the dark.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Your book.
One of the quotes I quite likedwas everybody loves progress,
but nobody wants to change.
Can you share some of the mostimpactful strategies that you've
seen for transforming abusiness whilst managing complex
stakeholder expectations?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Oh, again a very good question.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Covid hit Writing.
Such a book was on my bucketlist so literally the next day
when I could not travel thatmuch anymore, I started to write
that book, Got a good partnerwith Forbes to publish it in the
US.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
I leveraged quite a lot.
I looked at all kinds of casesthat are available around the
world where people reallytransformed large companies and
smaller companies, looked at allkinds of academic data, all
kinds of things you could proveand also my own experiences, and
I found that almost all thelarge transformation in case
studies found there's a pattern.
(34:13):
So there are 10, 12 thingspeople normally do to a better
and higher degree, and if youskip several of those, these
larger transformation where1,000 people have to move and do
something differently andcreate progress, it gets more
complicated.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
I'm not going to numb you with all of them, and let
me share a few.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
So we talked about purpose.
It's extremely important tohave a company that has purpose,
and there are four levels ofpurpose.
It could be purpose, waswritten up by a PR agency and is
somewhere as a note mentionedin annual report, but nobody
understands it Could be purposeis well known.
It's hammered on the wall.
People get trained and could bepurpose really gives people,
energy and direction.
That's at different levels, sowe create OLS and DKV, a purpose
(34:50):
that makes sense and peoplethrive and everybody knows, and
it should be something alwayslike what we do for somebody
else.
It's extremely important as anorganization to attract people.
So when Steve Jobs came back toApple to help turn that around,
the company was not doing well.
It was short for bankruptcy.
He had to go to Microsoft tomake a deal done all kinds of
other things he rationalized theproduct portfolio.
(35:12):
But one of the things he did inthe background he said I need to
spend time every week thinkingabout the purpose of this
company, because it's probablythe most important thing.
And then he figured outsomething that was profound.
He didn't come up with apurpose, but the meaning was
around that we empower people'spassions, and it's a very
different thing.
And then, therefore, he decidedokay, what does it mean?
What are people passionateabout Music?
(35:34):
People are passionate aboutmusic, everybody's passionate
about music.
The iPod got developed.
Next thing what are peoplepassionate about?
Pictures?
Iphone.
That trailed Apple from almostbankruptcy with a market share
of, I think, 1% in the PC, or acouple single digit percent
points per market share in thecomputer market, to the most
valuable company in the world.
(35:55):
I think it's profoundly alsodriven by having a purpose.
Second thing is you need to havesome fresh perspectives on your
business and industry.
People have beliefs that areoutdated and not working anymore
.
Give you an example Classicalexample Netflix.
Netflix was a bunch of guys whowere pretty upset about
returning these DVDs and theyhave to pay for that.
(36:16):
And they went to the biggestDVD player game out there, which
was blockbusters, and theytried to get a meeting with the
senior team.
It was a big tower.
They went to the top floor,they got a meeting and they
offered why don't you invest abit in us or buy us and we, as a
team, built for you, built foryou?
We have a future about alsostreaming logic.
(36:37):
And people said these guys arecrazy.
We believe in our stores.
I think six, seven years later,blockbusters was bankrupt.
What are you missing?
What is your perspective in theindustry that you're seeing and
not seeing?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So at.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
DigiV, for example.
We saw already six years ago,ev is growing.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
We invested massively in it.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
We're now winning in this game with a very attractive
model, but when we started toinvest, people thought we were
crazy of doing that.
What I really like is the CEOof Disney.
Inger when doing that.
What I really like is the CEOof Disney, inger.
When his predecessor steppedaway and he was in the running
for the top job, he was aninternal candidate and people
said that he didn't have achance.
And then he had some friend overand he said what do you want to
(37:16):
do with that company?
Give me your priorities.
And he mumbled a bit and no, no, give me the four or five
priorities.
And he wrote them down.
He went to the board and saidthese are my priorities I want
to do.
I want to become streaming.
I want to get new content, thebest content in the world.
I want to go global.
I want to do this.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And if you look at it , for the next 10 years he kept
his priorities and delivered onit and turned Disney around.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
That's what is important to have.
If you have, then you need toget your people in place.
We talked about earlier.
All the transformations startwith the right set of people at
the top, and then the nextlayers, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You have the right people with the right
capabilities, with the rightdrive, et cetera Absolutely
fundamental.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That's how Microsoft started turning around with such
a.
He assessed the.
Create a new team.
He said what's the capabilitieswe need?
This is the team.
Invest it in the team.
You need to get your radicalprinciples, which are your
values.
You need to get straight whatdo you stand for as a company?
Let me give you one example.
So, Sappos at the time was afloundering online shoe selling
business.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
They found some people and they sat together and
said okay, what are we reallyabout?
Speaker 3 (38:23):
about what are our real principles?
And it came something around,call it fanatical customer
service.
It's one of the things theywanted to do.
Our warehouse we need to own it.
We cannot have a third partybecause otherwise you cannot
deliver quality.
We need to move it next to abig airport hub so people can
deliver the next day.
We need to do all kinds ofthings.
So if a customer calls and theshoe is not in store for us, we
(38:43):
refer them to a competitor.
So they went really extreme.
That company took off withoutany marketing money almost
because of that choice.
Once you have a strategy logic,you need to communicate,
communicate, communicateconsistently that plan.
What you cannot do is sixmonths later a new consultant
comes with a new idea and youchange it.
You cannot say, six months, allabout AI and then it's all
about green and then it's allabout no.
(39:04):
No, you need to haveconsistency and most people
forget about the communication,communication, communication,
communication.
And then one of my favorite isVincent van Gogh.
The painter said you rather diefrom passion than from boredom.
So all that comes to turnaround.
You need to find passion.
Why do you like this?
It's not easy.
I mean, what's the passion thatdrives you?
Phil Knight started Nike.
He just got a group of peopletogether who loved running and
(39:27):
at the time they were crazybecause nobody was running on
the street at the time.
And if you read the insightsabout how that motivation helped
these people to drive hundredsof miles to try to sell a shoe
or follow up customers or thatpassion drove that company, not
analytics, but it was thatpassion drove that company, not
analytics, but it was thatpassion.
And I see any great company isalso driven by passion for what
people want to do Managing thepolitics better.
(39:49):
So we always have stakeholdersand we talked a lot about it.
I think there's a great exampleabout Instagram when the guys
who founded Instagram werebought by Facebook.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I think they were an outfit of 15 or 13 people.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
The next day they were bought, or a month later
they were shipped into thecampus of, at the time, facebook
, where already 10,000 peoplewere working on a big campus and
everything.
And these 10,000 people cameinto it and Facebook had paid a
billion for that company and allthese people working on the
campus thought these people werecrazy, stupid people.
How can I pay a billion forthem?
And a lot of startups that werebought by Facebook at the time.
(40:26):
They died because they came tothis big campus and died.
But these people were smarter.
I said, okay, how can we dothis better?
So they got a room somewhere inthe middle of the campus and
they started to hand out muffins, I think at coffee time, and
invited people.
They helped people sign up onFacebook.
So you see how it worked.
They looked at the board andsaid there was a person in the
most senior layer who could be asponsor of us.
(40:46):
They said, okay, what isZuckerberg's agenda?
How can we help?
So over time, within four, five,six, seven years, instagram
grew massively.
It became stronger and didn'tdie because they were facing
reality about okay, who'simportant?
What are we going to do?
Party, you need to celebrateprogress.
There are milestones Also.
If it not goes well, you haveto evaluate and be critical.
(41:07):
But once there's a milestonereached, you have to celebrate.
For example, in DKV we have nowclose to a million charge
points connected to our networkin Europe for EVs.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
When I started I said I want to go to a million.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Everybody in the company thought I was crazy.
I think, we had 30,000 at thetime, connected Every 100,000,
we'd get a big cake.
We're going to celebrate.
So it took a while.
Then we had 100,000, but thenfaster and faster, right, so you
need to celebrate.
This is an example, and thenmaybe a profound one is what I
call.
It only works and maybe that'swhy you I think, in my logic,
(41:44):
primarily you start with youremployees.
They spend all their time andlife and energy in this company
to do something together.
So what's in it for them whenyou transform?
How will their world be better?
What will they learn?
What will they get?
How would they feel about thatand be serious about that?
So, dkv, we have extremely highpeople engagement scores and
rate is very high because wetake that seriously.
(42:06):
Of course, you need customers.
You serve them.
So what do you do that thetransformation makes?
Speaker 1 (42:12):
their lives better.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
They get better services, better products at a
lower price.
Or how do they get something Ifthe transformation is only
increased prices for them?
That's not a goodtransformation.
That's not a transformationright.
Only increase prices for them?
That's not a goodtransformation.
That's not a transformationright.
Then they go down.
How do you make sure thesecustomers get better results,
easier to deal with, for example, or with a more digital
interface, or get betterservices or whatever the logic
is, but they need to getsomething better out of it.
(42:35):
You have suppliers In atransformation.
If you just squeeze yoursuppliers at some point, it
doesn't matter because they alsopartner with you, right?
So how get they benefits from atransformation?
You have a community, so weinvest a lot in our community at
DKV.
We think it's very relevantbecause they provide a lot of
infrastructure for us, a lot ofwhere people live and we get our
(42:56):
resources from.
So what do you do for yourcommunity?
And then, if you do all thosethings well, they have your
financial investors, then theyget a good return.
But if you turn this around andyou would say, well, I squeeze
the customers, I squeeze thesuppliers, I squeeze my
employees, I don't do what'sproperly right for my
environment, you get somefinancial results, but that's
not real success.
(43:16):
And I've learned if you dothese things right, the
financial success is much bigger, right?
So that's a long story but Ithink I give you a couple of
feel about the different levers.
Having clear purpose makessense.
Having a future plan thatpeople align on makes sense.
It's better than not having aplan.
Having a plan based on goodinsights and not somehow ideas
or ideas from the past ishelpful.
(43:38):
Having a good team Everybodyknows that if a top team in
organization is not working oris political, that goes straight
to the organization.
If they're not priorities andpeople don't know where to work
on, how to contribute, itdoesn't make sense.
Right?
If there's no clearcommunication about where you're
going, it doesn't make sense.
If you don't have good valuesyou live by, so you can go
through the whole list, if youdon't have a good execution
(44:00):
rhythm, if you don't celebratecertain moments, if you don't
take care of your stakeholders.
So I have learned that there isno real shortcut.
Now.
There are phases in anorganization where, for example,
you're in real restructuring,like the water is, so
financially on the water thecompany is literally in dire
straits.
You have to make some drasticmeasures.
But if there is a bit of a basecase of I want to create a
(44:21):
better company and you havethree, four, five years which is
the normal termand it has to be strength
afterwards.
Doing the basics right pays off.
Not doing the basics right willgive pain in your three four.
At the moment you want to sellit, then maybe your key
employees go or your customersare unhappy and somebody who
assesses that business at thetime with the dealings will see
(44:43):
that they say, okay, your MPSscore is going down or your
people engagement is low,instead of it goes up and up.
So I think if you explain thatto a good PE firm and you work
together.
You say we want to create thismuch better company, Of course,
in a sound financial way.
You want to make sure EBDA goesup and et cetera.
But that's, I think, the logicthat makes most sense In my book
what I've seen of companiesthat create real success in
(45:04):
transformation.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, listen, I don't meet people every day that have
written their own books.
It's also quite refreshing tosee someone that's been able to
document some of the things thatthey've learned over the years
and, equally, to meet someonewith your success, but someone
that's super humble and reallydown to earth, despite the
things that you've achieved andthe heights that you've reached
despite the things that you'veachieved and the heights that
you've reached.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
I call it.
It's not about reporting up,it's about supporting down right
.
So what I've seen often in anorganization goes wrong when
people feel you have to getinformation up and report up and
people want to have biggeroffices and bigger corner
offices and those type of things.
An organization is a group ofpeople that all dedicate their
energy to get somethinghappening.
The more senior you are, themore you need to be supportive
that people have the rightcircumstances to thrive.
It's not that people have theresponsibility for you to thrive
(45:47):
as leaders.
It's the other way around.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's how do you create an environment?
Speaker 3 (45:50):
that people can thrive and progress creates
happiness.
That's, I think, the attitudeyou need to have, and it's not
about the more senior, the moreimportant yeah you have more
important decisions to take andmore responsibilities, but I
strongly believe everybodymatters.
Without anybody, you cannotsucceed.
Everybody's important in thatcontext.
There's not one person moreimportant.
Everybody's important.
But everybody has to play theirrole to be successful.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
What do you think has shaped that ethos for you?
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I guess I come from a hardworking, entrepreneurial
background, people who want toreally do well.
I grew up in a country that'spretty Calvinistic, but I think
for me what's more important isif you're really committed and I
try to dedicate my career fromearly on.
If a company, a business,thrives, it has a massive impact
on society.
It doesn't matter how big orsmall the company is.
(46:37):
First, the employees.
If people feel they're thrivingand developing and can
contribute and the company makessense and is purposeful and
we're making progress, theyleave with better energy when
they go home, to theirrelationships, to their
neighbors, to their community,or they're frustrated because
it's political and nothing isconfusing and no decisions are
made and they get frustrated.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
It's a massive thing your customers.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
you need to solve problems for your customers and
make them better, right For yoursupplies, for your community.
Making business organizationsthrive is a very noble,
extremely important role insociety.
Be one of the most importantroles that we have.
Of course, politics andgovernments create facilities
around it, but that's where alot of people are active and it
needs to thrive.
How to make that happen?
You won't make that happen bybig corner offices, hierarchy,
(47:23):
long meetings.
That's actually moving thingsbackwards.
So if you dedicate yourself asa team, it doesn't matter it can
be a smaller team, bigger team,senior role, smaller role.
But if that's what you want todo, yeah, there's some universal
principles how to get that done.
Creating an environment for usto thrive is a very important
one.
You feel, if an organization isthriving or not, you feel are
people that work there areengaged or not?
(47:44):
Did they take care of the stuffin the store?
Is so?
Then you feel if people areengaged or not, and I think you
feel every organization and Ithink as a leader, you need to
make sure that people areengaged.
There's a clarity, there'smoving forward and things are
happening.
And then some of the thingslike how big is the corner
office is not important.
That's the wrong element andthat's why I like PE and that's
(48:05):
for people who listen to you nowand want to go into PE.
Pe values value creation, rightShort-term, middle-term,
long-term.
So those skills are important.
Hello and welcome to Spotlight On the podcast that
brings together business leaders, entrepreneurs and experts
covering a range of topics.
I'm Nicholas Barton, founderand CEO of the Barton
Partnership.
We're an award-winningexecutive recruitment and
consulting solutions firmproviding permanent search and
independent consulting servicesacross strategy, sustainability
(00:28):
and M&A, data and analytics, andtransformation and change.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
On this episode of Spotlight On.
We welcome Marco van Calvin tothe podcast.
Marco is the CEO of DKVMobility, the leading European
B2B platform for on-the-roadpayments and solutions, with
more than 17 billion euros oftransaction value and over
320,000 customers.
Marco's journey began with anMBA at Harvard Business School
(00:54):
before working for over a decadeat McKinsey Company in the US
and Europe with a focus ontransformational growth.
He later left as partner wherehe joined Bain Capital Private
Equity in London.
Later, marco stepped into CEOand management board roles,
leading transforming and growingmulti-billion international
businesses, initially at TNTExpress, a public global
(01:17):
overnight parcel deliverycompany, and later at LeasePlan,
the largest car leasing companyin the world.
He now sits as CEO at DKVMobility.
He is also the author ofUnleash your Transformation.
Marco, it's a pleasure to haveyou with us today on this
episode of Spotlight On.
As an overview from McKinsey toBaincap and obviously now at DKV
(01:40):
.
What were your key motivatorsbehind all of those different
career moves?
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
And in hindsight it makes sense, but maybe at the
time you have to make the choiceand have to think things over.
I think the first move was outof business school.
I did my MBA in the US, inHarvard Business School, and
then I had to decide what wouldbe my next step and I decided I
want to learn.
Still, I was still young at thetime.
Where can I learn?
(02:09):
Where can I learn?
And I already had a vision ofbeing a CEO in the long term and
also be able to changecompanies.
I thought where can I learn themost?
And then McKinsey came on mypath and I joined McKinsey and I
did that for 10 years, first inthe US, then in Europe.
It has been a fantasticexperience and I learned tons.
I see many different companies,many different industries in
many different countries.
You think, do I want to stay aconsultant for life or not?
(02:31):
And I concluded no, no, thatwas not my intent of joining.
Although it's comfortable,although it's an amazing company
, an amazing firm, I said no, Iwant to make a next move.
And then I thought what shouldbe my next 10-year horizon?
Not my next step particularly,but my next 10-year horizon, 10
years time.
I want to be able to leadlarger, bigger businesses.
(02:52):
And then Bain Capital came andsaid would you like to join the
portfolio team?
And I thought that's actually avery interesting step away from
consulting to go into aportfolio role at a private
equity firm and I learnedanother set of skills and
another set of perspectives.
You learn the investment side,you learn the M&A side, you
learn the exit side.
There are so many otherelements that maybe as a
(03:13):
consultant you haven't touchedupon that much.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So I did that for several years.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
But then really, really, there was a drive to
really start leading myselfsomething and that led to the
next two, three steps, as I havelost years.
First in T&T Express, where Ijoined the management board of a
large public company and had tolead a large, big division
around the globe.
And then to LeasePlan, whichwas a large private equity
buyout at the time.
One of the largest car leasingcompanies in the world was
(03:39):
bought out by a private equityconsortium and I joined that
management team and left theEuropean business.
And for the last six years I'vebeen leading as a CEO DQV
Mobility, which was a partinvestment of CVC.
So I've seen the private equitypart and actually these roles.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I joined very much the T&T role, the lease plan
role and the DQV role, Because Icould really lead these
businesses.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It was also my original intent when I started
my career For sure, and I guess,having worked in consulting,
having worked in private equityas an operating partner and
subsequently been an operatorand now a CEO for a couple of
private equity-backed assets,what would you say has been your
experiences of building ahealthy working relationship
(04:22):
between a private equity fundand that portfolio, both being
on the fund side but thenactually being on the other end
as an operator?
The?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
experience I've been on a portfolio team has been
tremendously helpful for me.
To be a CEO where privateequity investors are part of,
you understand much better howthe private sector side thinks
about the business, how theyoperate, how they incentivize,
how their world looks like,which makes it much easier to
really stand shoulder toshoulder and work together.
So that helped me a lot.
(04:54):
How they look at the world.
You have to understand howthese deal partners, how they
look at the case.
What were their originalinvestment case.
You have to be really upfrontwith them about this is the
strategic direction you want totake.
These are the initiatives youwant to take.
Bring them along in the journey.
So I would be very disciplinedin laying out in a one, two year
board agenda.
But these are all the topicsthat will come up in the future.
(05:15):
We'll address all of them.
I would have a lot of formaland informal contacts with them,
sometimes several times a week,just to quickly catch up.
Even five-minute call like thisis what we'd like to do, or
this is what's happening, tomake a sense of really being in
a boat together.
If you don't stay that close,you get more and more questions
from the investor side and youget more like a ping-pong of
(05:35):
question and answer and I thinkthat can be a waste of time and
I think working together on thebusiness is the way to go, and I
really enjoyed that.
Actually, I really enjoyedhaving a PE partner next to me
as a CEO to really bounce thingsoff and make things happen, but
in a common agenda.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
We've been quite privileged that we see the
market at a very macro view howoperating teams are structured,
how deal teams interact with ourassets, but then how CEOs and
other board members share theirexperiences of working with
investment teams and operatingteams as well, and I guess your
time at Bain Capital the sort ofevolution of the operating team
(06:11):
since that point has probablygone through a few cycles.
Really interesting to hear howit was to be in an operating
team back in 2009, and maybe howthat has perhaps evolved to
your exposure to operating teamsnow.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So when I joined, as you said, it was in the
beginning the thought that PEfirms started operating teams.
I joined in the beginningstages and at that time people
were finding the role, definingthe role, what is it all about?
You're not a CEO, you're not adeal team, but you are
responsible for driving thechange and creating the value
with the company.
So how much do you work withthe CEO?
(06:44):
How much do you supportinitiatives or not?
So that was a bit of a findingyour way, how to create value in
that setting.
What I experience now we havenow people who have done this
for a decade plus andexperienced about it, and they
are also much more in glue withthe deal team.
There's a much more clarityabout what do you do, what does
the portfolio team do?
What does the portfolio team do?
(07:05):
What does the deal team do?
The language is aligned.
People know immediately okay,in this deal situation, you do
these four things or these fivethings.
So I think these roles havebecome much more clear and much
more aligned in the wholeprocess.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
What I see, I think, when we meet with people who are
looking to leave the MBB orother similar strategy houses.
For those who are wanting tomove into private equity as an
operating partner, that is oftenseen as the holy grail, if you
will.
What advice would you have forsomeone that is either looking
(07:38):
to leave consulting for thefirst time, or perhaps is in
their first or second move outof consulting?
For achieving that end goal,what would you say has been the
recipe for success?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
There's a pre-step.
So what do you do when you areat consulting?
So if you want to be good atthis role in consulting, you can
choose where you focus on.
If you become a very narrowspecialist or a functional
specialist, that's not veryhelpful in a mid-cap PE type
environment where you have todeal with multiple topics, for
(08:07):
example.
So in consulting can you dealwith companies or situations
that reflect a bit the PE game,or where PE is invested, where
you have a broad set of topicswhere you have to make change
happen over multiple years.
So have you seeked out thesetype of consulting engagements
where you work on a broad set ofissues, where you work with
leaders that make things happenand where you work on programs
(08:29):
that does longer term Versus?
I work at a very big client andthen there's only a small part I
do there but I'm never part ofthe board, or I'm not part of
the major decisions but I dooperationally a smaller thing.
So I think there's a choicebefore where you focus your
activities as a consultant on, Ithink, being a bit broader.
Having seen multiple things,having seen both strategy, org
(08:50):
operations, different elements,have seen longer-term programs
as helpful, because that skillset is valuable once you get
into an operating role, Then,once you get out of consulting,
it could be helpful to get acouple of years of real
operating experience under yourbelt.
I think that's extremelyhelpful and appreciated by the
bigger PE firms.
So now again, what context doyou do that?
(09:13):
If you get an operatingexperience in just a very
slow-moving large corporateenvironment, that's maybe not
the experience they seek.
But if you step into somethingwhich was complicated, had to
change, had to structure,restructure, had to grow, had to
really change.
I think, if you do that forseveral years and you are one of
the players in a team that doesthat?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I think that's extremely appreciated.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And then, of course, if you've done that, how do you
get to the PE seats?
Players like yourself recruitpeople for that.
But like yourself, recruitpeople for that.
But also look at people whohave made that step, talk to
them, figure out.
It's a bit of a networkingelement as well.
To get in those roles which youdo while you're a consultant.
I think the first step out isinteresting and important and
(09:57):
then how you make a transitioninto that.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Looking back on your career, would you say your
intention from the beginning wasto become a CEO and therefore,
almost by sheer purpose, you'vetried to open the doors that
you've had opened for you, oryou think it's been more by
chance, as you've become moresenior.
Certain doors have thereforebeen open to you and that's how
you've achieved those.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I always wanted to become a CEO of a larger company
and make things happen andreally want to be in an
environment where you can makechange happen.
Then, along the journey, Ifigured out that.
Pe is a good environment forthat because people want to make
an investment.
They stay five, six years in.
Then they have to sell thecompany, exit the company.
So with a strong agendafollowing that.
(10:36):
So you work on an eight,nine-year horizon actually to
make things happen in a quiterational fast decision-making
environment, so I really enjoyedthat, but that I learned along
the way To lead a company.
I decided I made moves aboutlearning in the beginning of my
career.
I prioritized learning overalready taking a role like that,
so that's why I went toMcKinsey and to Bank Capital.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
And once.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I got more the range of a larger business.
I could apply all theselearnings and all these skills
in that situation.
It took a bit of patience toget to the right position.
I also know people who go inearly and say, after a couple of
years of consulting, let me doit.
But I have found that theseyears have been very precious
and very helpful.
I've seen many things, manyelements.
That's why I can do my job nowmuch better than if I would have
(11:17):
done it in a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And in terms of your current role at DKV You've
obviously been there now foralmost six years Could you maybe
just talk me through the rolethat you're in, what you're
responsible for, how that rolehas evolved over the last six
years?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
If you are coming in and in a situation where a PE
buys into or buys the wholeasset.
you have to very quickly lay outwhat could be the strategy, the
value creation path and alignpeople around it.
So you have to get your headaround very quickly be the
strategy, the value creationpath and align people around it.
So you have to get your headaround very quickly in the
beginning.
What's really going on in thisindustry?
What is myth and what isreality?
What are facts?
What are just emotionalelements?
(11:54):
What's the real strength of thecompany?
What is the areas you cannotleverage that much?
What can you leverage?
So in the beginning it's allabout getting your head around
it.
Then you try to distill veryfast what is the roadmap where
the strategy needs to happen.
And then you need to look foryour team Very quickly.
You have to assess what is theright people internally or
externally.
Typically in all the situationswhere I create a combination of
(12:17):
great talents from the outside,great talents from the inside,
to create a team and make thatmanagement team happen, and then
get an operating mode ofexecution of your strategy in
clear initiatives and roadmapsand yearly plans, et cetera.
And you have to do it in adisciplined way.
And then you need to createmomentum.
Right, that's all easy, setthese plans, but how do you keep
tech time and keep thesebusinesses moving?
(12:38):
and make decisions happen andcelebrate victories and move and
create momentum, and then atsome point there, is an exit at
the horizon.
How do you structure for that?
What are the elements you needto do so in all these phases,
from getting your head around abusiness, creating a strategy,
getting your team, getting itoperationally moving, shifting
the organization, getting winson the board, and then to an
exit your role shifts a bit inall those steps.
(13:02):
Your role and also where you putyour energy on has to shift
along the steps, which I verymuch enjoy.
It's a bit of a cycle you haveto go through.
That's how you could see overthose years.
It's a bit of a cycle, atypical cycle you go to in P&E
investment where as a.
CEO.
You have to have differentemphasis and different energy.
If you want an example, well,if you establish your team and
normally do that within thefirst, say, six, 12 months, you
(13:26):
don't want to change your teamall the time.
Right, that's then the team inthe boat.
But that phase is a veryimportant beginning phase to get
the right management team inplace with the right incentives
and the right ways of behaviors.
But you don't want to change intwo years or three years, right?
So in every phase there's acertain element which is
extremely critical and what'sless critical?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
a certain element which is extremely critical and
what's less critical.
It's interesting to hear howyour style and your approach and
your focus is very much inharmony with the stage that the
business is at in relation toits deal cycle, and actually
that's a really interestingperspective for someone that is
considering a move into PE.
Marrying the two together willbe, critical to ensure that your
(14:06):
objectives and your ownpriorities are matching the
priorities of the investor.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Yeah, I think it's very important to figure out.
PE is a broad definition butevery asset can be in a
different phase, every industrycould be in a different phase,
every financial capital marketcan be in a different phase.
So, for example, it's now noteasy to IPO in this context.
Two years ago, everybody couldIPO.
So the things are changing overtime and you have to figure out
what type of person are you.
(14:32):
Are you more a person who wantsto operate things in a clarity?
There are certain situationswhere there's a clear strategy
and they need a CEO, but theroad continues.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Or are you more like hey?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
let's get a new clarity and then to create a bit
new momentum.
That's a different type of gameand nothing is good or bad.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But these are different games and figure out
which environment you fit best Ithink is important in terms of
dkv and that journey thatthey've been on.
I'm already saying there's beenseveral acquisitions that have
been made during that time inorder to expand that digital
portfolio and regional expertise.
How have you gone aboutintegrating these acquisitions
(15:08):
into the business and what rolehas that played from an
innovation perspective that'sbeen able to keep DKV ahead of
the curve.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
When I arrived, the company was almost already 90
years old and had never done anyacquisitions.
I knew strategically toaccelerate our agenda, our
geographical footprint, as youdescribed, but also our
technology capabilities.
We had to move there.
Now we've done 15 deals since,but the company mainly
organically grew, but it wascomplementary and we
(15:38):
strengthened our capabilities.
In terms of how to integratethem, it depends a bit.
I think there's no one way todo this.
Certain companies, we're veryclose to our platform.
You combine it with yourbusiness right, so you integrate
it fully.
On the other hand, you havebusinesses which you want to buy
as a capability.
So we bought on technology playand transport management.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I'm not going to numb you with that, but it's a
certain technology play.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
We bought one of the European leaders.
We kept it relativelystandalone, but with them we
developed a new service for ourcore platform.
We leveraged their capabilities.
The worst thing would have beento put our own culture,
processes, everything on thattechnology play, because then it
would limit it.
But for that play we said, okay, we acquire that, keep them
(16:27):
relatively standalone, but withthat capability these people
have already built up fordecades.
And how do you understand themarket?
We develop a new servicetogether and there's a spectrum
of everything in between.
So each of these acquisitionswe did, some are fully
integrated, some are morestandalone, and then, if you
integrate there somewhere, morestandalone, and then, if you
integrate, there are certainthings that are prerequisite,
like certain reporting certainway you deal with people et
(16:49):
cetera.
So that's kind of what everybodyhas to do.
But in other elements you haveto be really smart.
What to integrate and notintegrate.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I learned that a lot.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Also, mckinsey, that you have to be careful for what
I call.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
M&A tourism where the mothership who buys?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
something in a great place, just wants to go by and
tells how things are working orshould work.
No, no, no, no, no.
So I always make a deal withthe management team that we buy.
So if you feel you get morestifled instead of helped, you
call me.
So make sure that the entitythat you buy keeps on thriving.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
We see a lot of buy and builds within private equity
.
We see M&A acting as a keygrowth lever for a lot of
businesses, commonly withinprivate equity, and I guess when
done right it works very well,but equally, if not done right
it can be quite damaging.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
What I've seen is you need to have a very clear M&A
strategy because things come toyou and some people
openistically react.
So you need to understand whatyou really want to have for the
next couple of years to add toyour business and what are your
criteria.
So what is your non-negotiables, for example, what type of
multiples you want to pay, whattype of quality of the
management team?
You need to have a couple ofviews on what your criteria are.
(18:03):
I think the other thing youneed to have is a very good
process how you evaluate anddecide these things.
So we set up a very efficient,quick process how a pulse gets
developed, how decisions aremade, how that even gets
escalated to a supervisory boardand to the PE firm.
We do this yes or no veryquickly.
So you need to build up clarityabout the strategy and clarity
about the process.
(18:23):
I would strongly recommend that.
And many companies maybe don'tdo that that often.
You need to be, really clearwho's internally the owner of
the deal, but also to make it asuccess afterward.
And they need to make reallyclear, if you just discussed
about.
You can have pretty standalonewhere you leverage maybe
specific capability or specificknowledge to fully integrate
(18:44):
into your business, but you needto make aware of all the
stakeholders in your company andall the different functions
what you expect from that.
M&A, Because the worst thing isto get stuck in the middle.
So a bit integration, but notfully.
Then that serves none of thesecompanies.
So it's much better to say okay, that's clear.
This might stand alone, withsome minimum governance around
it.
That's fully integration, andthis is the year and a half or
(19:07):
year integration path.
Sure, and then we know successor not and who's responsible.
So I think that's a logic thatneeds to get work, and then you
need to consistently evaluatehow this M&A went.
So it's always easy to have aninvestment case, anchor tier et
cetera up front.
But you need to learn honestly,brutally, is this working, Not
working?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
So there's an art to it and a process and how to make
M&A work in this contextparticularly if you want to
accelerate M&A, or a companythat's never done M&A, so I'll
give you one example, if it'shelpful, dkv.
As I said, 90 years without anyM&A but it was an M&A
department and I said, okay, wehave to do M&A, give have to do
M&A, give us a strategy to bedeveloped and I thought how do
(19:47):
we get this thing moving soliterally?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
in my first month we identified a target.
I met the owners on the otherside and I said we will close
this deal together in fourmonths from now.
Pick your agenda, we pick adate and by that date we close
it.
And they thought these guys arecrazy.
I was crazy, could?
never do that, but the date wasset we did all the work and the
(20:11):
deal was closed.
So that gave a lot of trust andmuscle in the organization to
get deals done.
So you need to find alsocatalysts to get M&A moving.
So once you have to make achange you need to get what I
call points on the board.
M&a is this if you do a verycomplicated M&A first that you
lose or goes off the rails, it'snot helpful.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
If you have an M&A agenda of multiple M&As for the
next three four years.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
So you need to make sure, as a CEO, that you pick
the right one first that you gopretty fast in a professional
way and that you make that asuccess Because that creates
muscle.
Capacity for change grows.
So once you've done one M&A,you learn have you done three?
Number six, seven, eight, nine,ten.
It becomes even easier.
So you need to make sure howyou get up the learning curve
and the change curve in theorganization.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And I mean it's just one example, but you can take
many other areas in the businesswhere you want to change how
you create momentum by firststep, second step, third step.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
One of the real hot topics in the market for the
last definitely 12 months, maybeeven longer, has been around AI
.
I think every business has adifferent opportunity but also
risk factor to AI.
How has the emergence of AIimpacted DKV and what challenges
or opportunities do you thinkit presents for the business?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I think you have to be always careful for hypes
Always.
I've seen so many come and go,and this is an extension of a
development that you see inbusinesses.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
It has to do with digitalization and awareness of
the power of data.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And then, on top of that, you can work with AI tools
to get even better insights andmake better decisions and
create better services for yourcustomers.
So we have been on this journey.
We said, okay, digitalizationis key, and so we have been on
this journey, we said, okay,digitalization is key, and we
made massive steps along thatway, Therefore also data is key,
so we set up data in a properway how to do that get the right
(21:56):
team in.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
But then we also saw already, even before AI boom, it
happened that these types oftools are relevant.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
So we seeked out one of the key partners at the time,
which was Microsoft, and theypicked us one of the key
partners at the time, which wasMicrosoft, and they picked us
one of the global partners towork with them already, even
before Jet CDP became almostmainstream to start working with
us and pioneering with us.
So we decided, yes, we want tobe pioneering.
We didn't want to do it for theshow for the outside world.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
None of these.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
So it's a different factor.
I think you have to do what'sreally meaningful, so you pick
the right partners, you pick theright use cases.
You don't do it.
For PR to look good, you needto really look with the eye on
the ball, do you?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
have all the elements in place.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Who's my partner If you cannot do it on your own?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
you have the right team that understands this.
You have the right priorities.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
And then do we have a real clean roadmap of
initiatives instead of justscrambling and doing many things
.
So it's all about makingmeaningful steps again.
Then AI can be extremelypowerful.
Ai is relevant in certainspecific areas in each company
at this stage.
How do we deal with that?
And how we make that work andhow do we measure that?
That's helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And how do we create the environment?
From the right data, the rightteam the right digital
environment, that can be helpful.
So I think again it's one ofthose things.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
It's just a development of technology that
you have to deal with.
What I personally don't thinkis this massive hype and down,
because maybe a year ago peopleoverestimated it.
Some people underestimate itnow and go no, no, it's relevant
, it's important and I think youneed to build in your strategic
logic and in your initiativeswhere it makes sense and keep
your eyes wide open.
Is it working?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
or not?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
And if it's working, how can we scale it up?
So I think that that's theattitude we took and that's why
we're pretty advanced in whatwe're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
That perspective is quite refreshing, I think, from
the event that we hosted andsome of the answers that we
received.
It was, from what I understood,a topic that many people lacked
enough of the understanding ofwhat the potential really is,
and that's perhaps where thefear came or the fear of missing
out, I should say, because thefear is, if you don't capitalize
, someone else will, and that'sthe biggest risk to any business
(23:58):
that you'll lose market shareto the next disruptor.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
It's one of the topics you have to deal with as
a company?
Sure, but you need to organizein a proper way that you get
some results out of it, For sure, and doing that out of fear or
out of panic or out of highemotion is not helpful in a PE
context.
In a PE context, you want toimprove this company in four or
five years and with an agendafor the next three, four years.
Of course, in most companiesthere's a data, digital and an
(24:23):
AI type of agenda.
It would be almost weird not tohave that agenda.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
But that's one of the elements of your agenda and how
you organize.
For that and in terms of yourown belief around what's been
key to you staying relevant andmaintaining success in both
competitive but dynamiclandscapes, particularly with
the demands that a privateequity fund has.
What do you feel you've beengood at in order to stay so
relevant across the duration ofyour career?
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I think every person is different, but I've seen not
only for me, but I've seen manyother people.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
But I think what is relevant as a leader.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
You are the ultimate 24-7 responsible person to lead
this company to a better future,and you need to have a picture
about what that better future is.
If you don't can articulate infour or five years, success is
there and people don'tunderstand that you get wobbly
because then you react to AI.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
To a dinner here, to a dinner there, no, no, if
that's what we try to achieve.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
You need to keep your eyes open and learn
consistently, but not getdistracted by minor things.
You have to have a course whereyou want to bring the ship.
That's the goal of the captain,I think, if they realize that,
as you're ultimately responsible, it's all about a team.
So who is the team?
And it's a very importantquestion.
And so it starts with amanagement team.
(25:46):
Who's part of that?
People, as a management team,feel that it's one team or
they're just representing theirown area in that team.
No, no, it has to be one team.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Are people motivated?
Do they have enough?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
capabilities?
Do they have enoughresponsibilities?
Are they thriving?
So, if the team thrives, andthere's a clear, compelling
vision, that's already a way togo.
Then you say how do you createan organization and a culture
that supports that?
You need to have a culture thatpeople want to progress.
Progress is happiness, so youneed to make sure that people
(26:16):
progress, that things are moving.
So, for example, in ourbusiness, everybody has their
top five priorities and theyknow them from each other.
We share them with pride.
Every slide, the first slide, Ihave to my boards.
These are the priorities forthis year and this is what every
slide at first, I have to myboards.
These are the priorities forthis year and this is what I'm
doing and everybody has that, soyou create clarity about how
everybody is contributing.
You need to have an organization, you need to have a purpose.
(26:36):
If you don't have a clearpurpose, from why do we exist as
a group of people?
What do we want to achieve forsociety?
Then people optimize forthemselves.
So there are many topics youcan bring together, but I think
the true north you're ultimatelyresponsible to bring that
company to a better future andthink about night and day about
it and what you need to do forthat Learn, bring the best
(26:57):
people along.
Drive to that direction isabsolutely key and therefore you
need to learn, you need toimprove yourself every day, but
that's your ultimateresponsibility.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And do you think that it's always achievable to align
what's best for the business aswell as what's best for the
fund?
That's a very good question.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
You need to do what's right for all the key
stakeholders for the long termand in principle that is also
the right thing for a PE firm ifthey want to successfully sell
a business after four or fiveyears.
So you have to have what I callthree horizon agenda.
There's always a short-termagenda.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You need to get some improvements right now,
Otherwise a PE firm gets nervous.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
But also an organization doesn't see
progress.
I gave you an example aboutthat M&A deal.
But if you don't seeshorter-term movement, you have
a second horizon the currentbusiness for the current three,
four, five years.
How to improve it and sometimestaking initiatives takes longer
time.
But you also need to put seedsin the ground for your five, six
, seven, eight, how you willgrow then and how you make sure
this company thrives then I havefound, if you become explicit
(27:58):
to the PE firm and the deal,partners this is the direction
you want to go, these are ourKPIs and this is our value
creation bridge.
To get there, that's the planthat we have, then interstitials
come and align it up front.
If then, for example, ad hocquestions come from a PE firm
(28:21):
who reads something in theFinancial Times or the Wall
Street Journal, or had a bodythat says, oh, this is important
, then you can refer back, butthis is our plan.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Maybe that's the topic, but maybe you should wait
for next year about the topic,because this is what we're
driving for, so you need tofocus on the future where you
want to go and get stakeholdersbehind, if you start focusing
only on the PE firm, what theywant.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
They have three, four investments to deal with.
They maybe had a bad night'ssleep or a good night's sleep.
You, they have three, fourinvestments to deal with.
They maybe had a bad night'ssleep or a good night's sleep.
You cannot steer a companyabout what only deal partner
makes him or her happy all thetime.
But you need to take that intoaccount.
But you need to have a dialogueabout yeah, but for the company
, that's the right direction togo.
So I think sometimes there canbe tension.
(29:04):
Normally it's not in the startand the middle of a program.
It gets more to an exit whereI've seen there could be tension
.
They are roads separate but inthe beginning I found people are
mostly aligned because you wantto create a value, you want to
create a much better company infour or five years, because also
for the e-firm there's muchmore value when you sell it.
So there should be a good storyalso for year six, seven, eight
, yeah, so, so there's a logicwith that.
(29:26):
But once you get closer to anexit the company needs to
continue with all thestakeholders.
Maybe there's a P exit.
Derek could have some tension.
You need to be very explicitabout it, discuss it right and
open this.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's one of the questions that we're often asked
when speaking about anopportunity in a private
exit-backed business that ismaybe about to go through an
exit or has just been acquired,and it's ensuring that the fund
is able to confidently instillthat buy-in from the CEO and the
management team in order to becommitted to the cycle.
(29:58):
And obviously there aremechanisms that financially
incentives people, but I thinkethically and from a values
perspective, it's important thatfunds are able to also
articulate what their prioritiesand objectives are in order to
keep people like yourself.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
I think it's very important Start a journey with
them in the end.
Like what success for you as aPE firm in five, six years.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
What?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
type of exit do you envision?
Is this an IPO exit, anindustry sale?
Is it a rollover?
Is it selling to another PE orwhatever the plan is?
Or what do you think is yourprioritization of that?
Because that determines how youmake some moves up front.
If you want to do an IPO infour or five years, you need to
get a company IPO ready.
There's a lot of work to bedone for that.
You cannot just say half a yearbefore we want to do an IPO.
If it's more an industry sale,well, who could be the partners?
(30:44):
Exit is, I think, with a PEfirm upfront, continuously along
the journey.
Are we still on that track?
Are you guys having a dualtrack or are you thinking a
different track?
And then you need to have a planthat once you sell it for
somebody else, what is thefinancial plan or strategic?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
plan for the coming years as management.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
The better PE firms.
They have a reputation to keepup.
If they sell an asset and thatasset does well with the next
owner, that's beneficial to themin the long run.
Because if they sell an assetand it's doing worse than was
thought, their reputation andpeople pay less for these assets
of that PE firm down the road.
So I think if you have along-term PE firm that wants to
(31:20):
build a real firm and ageneration of people and next
generation of people internallythere is a benefit of saying we
need to get the right value.
You understand me.
Of course there's a negotiationelement to it.
But you cannot dress up thebride to extreme because then
the next guy or situation has aproblem and it also hurts the PE
.
So you ought to have a greatstory and it's a backed up story
(31:42):
.
That's why I'm investing alsoin this third horizon.
How can you have substantiation, say there's a great plan with
a great financial logic for thenext four or five years after
the exit, and that's true.
That's a good plan but not amade-up stuff.
But if that's your commitment,I need to invest right now,
already in certain initiatives.
That's why I'm investing in AI.
So if there's a good plan andstrong growth and financial
prospects, that's the help ofeverybody.
(32:02):
If you milk the company anddon't invest and you make up a
story, I think for the good PEfirms that's not helpful either,
right, because that will comeout and it hurts their
reputation and people down theroad will pay less for their
assets.
So I think that alignment ofthere should be a good plan
going forward as well.
How do you do that?
I think that's helpful to alignand have that dialogue.
(32:23):
There is a topic always calledmind the exit.
You have it in the underground.
Mind the exit right or mind thestep.
I have it in the underground.
Mind the exit right or mind thestep.
I think you need to be aware ina PE is a beautiful thing.
They are in there for severalyears and there's an exit.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So what is that exit?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And when's it likely going to happen?
Under what conditions?
What do we need?
So it's also extremelyimportant to understand what
type of return does that PE fundneed to have, more or less with
that asset?
You need to understand that asmanagement.
So I'm pretty aware.
I ask normally what does yourmodel look like?
What was your originalscenarios?
How were you funded this?
What would be your money andmoney multiple in four or five
years with these type ofdividends, with this type of
(33:00):
exit and this type of exitmultiple?
When will you be happy?
When will you internally be ahero?
So you need to understand whereyou are targeting to it.
Sure, you understand what I'msaying?
Yeah, so those type of logics,how we get along that road.
It's a normal dialogue to haveIf you're unaware what for them
successes or their internalmodels look like in the dark.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Your book.
One of the quotes I quite likedwas everybody loves progress,
but nobody wants to change.
Can you share some of the mostimpactful strategies that you've
seen for transforming abusiness whilst managing complex
stakeholder expectations?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Oh, again a very good question.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Covid hit Writing.
Such a book was on my bucketlist so literally the next day
when I could not travel thatmuch anymore, I started to write
that book, Got a good partnerwith Forbes to publish it in the
US.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
I leveraged quite a lot.
I looked at all kinds of casesthat are available around the
world where people reallytransformed large companies and
smaller companies, looked at allkinds of academic data, all
kinds of things you could proveand also my own experiences, and
I found that almost all thelarge transformation in case
studies found there's a pattern.
(34:13):
So there are 10, 12 thingspeople normally do to a better
and higher degree, and if youskip several of those, these
larger transformation where1,000 people have to move and do
something differently andcreate progress, it gets more
complicated.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
I'm not going to numb you with all of them, and let
me share a few.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
So we talked about purpose.
It's extremely important tohave a company that has purpose,
and there are four levels ofpurpose.
It could be purpose, waswritten up by a PR agency and is
somewhere as a note mentionedin annual report, but nobody
understands it Could be purposeis well known.
It's hammered on the wall.
People get trained and could bepurpose really gives people,
energy and direction.
That's at different levels, sowe create OLS and DKV, a purpose
(34:50):
that makes sense and peoplethrive and everybody knows, and
it should be something alwayslike what we do for somebody
else.
It's extremely important as anorganization to attract people.
So when Steve Jobs came back toApple to help turn that around,
the company was not doing well.
It was short for bankruptcy.
He had to go to Microsoft tomake a deal done all kinds of
other things he rationalized theproduct portfolio.
(35:12):
But one of the things he did inthe background he said I need to
spend time every week thinkingabout the purpose of this
company, because it's probablythe most important thing.
And then he figured outsomething that was profound.
He didn't come up with apurpose, but the meaning was
around that we empower people'spassions, and it's a very
different thing.
And then, therefore, he decidedokay, what does it mean?
What are people passionateabout Music?
(35:34):
People are passionate aboutmusic, everybody's passionate
about music.
The iPod got developed.
Next thing what are peoplepassionate about?
Pictures?
Iphone.
That trailed Apple from almostbankruptcy with a market share
of, I think, 1% in the PC, or acouple single digit percent
points per market share in thecomputer market, to the most
valuable company in the world.
(35:55):
I think it's profoundly alsodriven by having a purpose.
Second thing is you need to havesome fresh perspectives on your
business and industry.
People have beliefs that areoutdated and not working anymore
.
Give you an example Classicalexample Netflix.
Netflix was a bunch of guys whowere pretty upset about
returning these DVDs and theyhave to pay for that.
(36:16):
And they went to the biggestDVD player game out there, which
was blockbusters, and theytried to get a meeting with the
senior team.
It was a big tower.
They went to the top floor,they got a meeting and they
offered why don't you invest abit in us or buy us and we, as a
team, built for you, built foryou?
We have a future about alsostreaming logic.
(36:37):
And people said these guys arecrazy.
We believe in our stores.
I think six, seven years later,blockbusters was bankrupt.
What are you missing?
What is your perspective in theindustry that you're seeing and
not seeing?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So at.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
DigiV, for example.
We saw already six years ago,ev is growing.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
We invested massively in it.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
We're now winning in this game with a very attractive
model, but when we started toinvest, people thought we were
crazy of doing that.
What I really like is the CEOof Disney.
Inger when doing that.
What I really like is the CEOof Disney, inger.
When his predecessor steppedaway and he was in the running
for the top job, he was aninternal candidate and people
said that he didn't have achance.
And then he had some friend overand he said what do you want to
(37:16):
do with that company?
Give me your priorities.
And he mumbled a bit and no, no, give me the four or five
priorities.
And he wrote them down.
He went to the board and saidthese are my priorities I want
to do.
I want to become streaming.
I want to get new content, thebest content in the world.
I want to go global.
I want to do this.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And if you look at it , for the next 10 years he kept
his priorities and delivered onit and turned Disney around.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
That's what is important to have.
If you have, then you need toget your people in place.
We talked about earlier.
All the transformations startwith the right set of people at
the top, and then the nextlayers, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You have the right people with the right
capabilities, with the rightdrive, et cetera Absolutely
fundamental.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That's how Microsoft started turning around with such
a.
He assessed the.
Create a new team.
He said what's the capabilitieswe need?
This is the team.
Invest it in the team.
You need to get your radicalprinciples, which are your
values.
You need to get straight whatdo you stand for as a company?
Let me give you one example.
So, Sappos at the time was afloundering online shoe selling
business.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
They found some people and they sat together and
said okay, what are we reallyabout?
Speaker 3 (38:23):
about what are our real principles?
And it came something around,call it fanatical customer
service.
It's one of the things theywanted to do.
Our warehouse we need to own it.
We cannot have a third partybecause otherwise you cannot
deliver quality.
We need to move it next to abig airport hub so people can
deliver the next day.
We need to do all kinds ofthings.
So if a customer calls and theshoe is not in store for us, we
(38:43):
refer them to a competitor.
So they went really extreme.
That company took off withoutany marketing money almost
because of that choice.
Once you have a strategy logic,you need to communicate,
communicate, communicateconsistently that plan.
What you cannot do is sixmonths later a new consultant
comes with a new idea and youchange it.
You cannot say, six months, allabout AI and then it's all
about green and then it's allabout no.
(39:04):
No, you need to haveconsistency and most people
forget about the communication,communication, communication,
communication.
And then one of my favorite isVincent van Gogh.
The painter said you rather diefrom passion than from boredom.
So all that comes to turnaround.
You need to find passion.
Why do you like this?
It's not easy.
I mean, what's the passion thatdrives you?
Phil Knight started Nike.
He just got a group of peopletogether who loved running and
(39:27):
at the time they were crazybecause nobody was running on
the street at the time.
And if you read the insightsabout how that motivation helped
these people to drive hundredsof miles to try to sell a shoe
or follow up customers or thatpassion drove that company, not
analytics, but it was thatpassion drove that company, not
analytics, but it was thatpassion.
And I see any great company isalso driven by passion for what
people want to do Managing thepolitics better.
(39:49):
So we always have stakeholdersand we talked a lot about it.
I think there's a great exampleabout Instagram when the guys
who founded Instagram werebought by Facebook.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I think they were an outfit of 15 or 13 people.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
The next day they were bought, or a month later
they were shipped into thecampus of, at the time, facebook
, where already 10,000 peoplewere working on a big campus and
everything.
And these 10,000 people cameinto it and Facebook had paid a
billion for that company and allthese people working on the
campus thought these people werecrazy, stupid people.
How can I pay a billion forthem?
And a lot of startups that werebought by Facebook at the time.
(40:26):
They died because they came tothis big campus and died.
But these people were smarter.
I said, okay, how can we dothis better?
So they got a room somewhere inthe middle of the campus and
they started to hand out muffins, I think at coffee time, and
invited people.
They helped people sign up onFacebook.
So you see how it worked.
They looked at the board andsaid there was a person in the
most senior layer who could be asponsor of us.
(40:46):
They said, okay, what isZuckerberg's agenda?
How can we help?
So over time, within four, five,six, seven years, instagram
grew massively.
It became stronger and didn'tdie because they were facing
reality about okay, who'simportant?
What are we going to do?
Party, you need to celebrateprogress.
There are milestones Also.
If it not goes well, you haveto evaluate and be critical.
(41:07):
But once there's a milestonereached, you have to celebrate.
For example, in DKV we have nowclose to a million charge
points connected to our networkin Europe for EVs.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
When I started I said I want to go to a million.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Everybody in the company thought I was crazy.
I think, we had 30,000 at thetime, connected Every 100,000,
we'd get a big cake.
We're going to celebrate.
So it took a while.
Then we had 100,000, but thenfaster and faster, right, so you
need to celebrate.
This is an example, and thenmaybe a profound one is what I
call.
It only works and maybe that'swhy you I think, in my logic,
(41:44):
primarily you start with youremployees.
They spend all their time andlife and energy in this company
to do something together.
So what's in it for them whenyou transform?
How will their world be better?
What will they learn?
What will they get?
How would they feel about thatand be serious about that?
So, dkv, we have extremely highpeople engagement scores and
rate is very high because wetake that seriously.
(42:06):
Of course, you need customers.
You serve them.
So what do you do that thetransformation makes?
Speaker 1 (42:12):
their lives better.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
They get better services, better products at a
lower price.
Or how do they get something Ifthe transformation is only
increased prices for them?
That's not a goodtransformation.
That's not a transformationright.
Only increase prices for them?
That's not a goodtransformation.
That's not a transformationright.
Then they go down.
How do you make sure thesecustomers get better results,
easier to deal with, for example, or with a more digital
interface, or get betterservices or whatever the logic
is, but they need to getsomething better out of it.
(42:35):
You have suppliers In atransformation.
If you just squeeze yoursuppliers at some point, it
doesn't matter because they alsopartner with you, right?
So how get they benefits from atransformation?
You have a community, so weinvest a lot in our community at
DKV.
We think it's very relevantbecause they provide a lot of
infrastructure for us, a lot ofwhere people live and we get our
(42:56):
resources from.
So what do you do for yourcommunity?
And then, if you do all thosethings well, they have your
financial investors, then theyget a good return.
But if you turn this around andyou would say, well, I squeeze
the customers, I squeeze thesuppliers, I squeeze my
employees, I don't do what'sproperly right for my
environment, you get somefinancial results, but that's
not real success.
(43:16):
And I've learned if you dothese things right, the
financial success is much bigger, right?
So that's a long story but Ithink I give you a couple of
feel about the different levers.
Having clear purpose makessense.
Having a future plan thatpeople align on makes sense.
It's better than not having aplan.
Having a plan based on goodinsights and not somehow ideas
or ideas from the past ishelpful.
(43:38):
Having a good team Everybodyknows that if a top team in
organization is not working oris political, that goes straight
to the organization.
If they're not priorities andpeople don't know where to work
on, how to contribute, itdoesn't make sense.
Right?
If there's no clearcommunication about where you're
going, it doesn't make sense.
If you don't have good valuesyou live by, so you can go
through the whole list, if youdon't have a good execution
(44:00):
rhythm, if you don't celebratecertain moments, if you don't
take care of your stakeholders.
So I have learned that there isno real shortcut.
Now.
There are phases in anorganization where, for example,
you're in real restructuring,like the water is, so
financially on the water thecompany is literally in dire
straits.
You have to make some drasticmeasures.
But if there is a bit of a basecase of I want to create a
(44:21):
better company and you havethree, four, five years which is
the normal termand it has to be strength
afterwards.
Doing the basics right pays off.
Not doing the basics right willgive pain in your three four.
At the moment you want to sellit, then maybe your key
employees go or your customersare unhappy and somebody who
assesses that business at thetime with the dealings will see
(44:43):
that they say, okay, your MPSscore is going down or your
people engagement is low,instead of it goes up and up.
So I think if you explain thatto a good PE firm and you work
together.
You say we want to create thismuch better company, Of course,
in a sound financial way.
You want to make sure EBDA goesup and et cetera.
But that's, I think, the logicthat makes most sense In my book
what I've seen of companiesthat create real success in
(45:04):
transformation.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, listen, I don't meet people every day that have
written their own books.
It's also quite refreshing tosee someone that's been able to
document some of the things thatthey've learned over the years
and, equally, to meet someonewith your success, but someone
that's super humble and reallydown to earth, despite the
things that you've achieved andthe heights that you've reached
despite the things that you'veachieved and the heights that
you've reached.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
I call it.
It's not about reporting up,it's about supporting down right
.
So what I've seen often in anorganization goes wrong when
people feel you have to getinformation up and report up and
people want to have biggeroffices and bigger corner
offices and those type of things.
An organization is a group ofpeople that all dedicate their
energy to get somethinghappening.
The more senior you are, themore you need to be supportive
that people have the rightcircumstances to thrive.
It's not that people have theresponsibility for you to thrive
(45:47):
as leaders.
It's the other way around.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's how do you create an environment?
Speaker 3 (45:50):
that people can thrive and progress creates
happiness.
That's, I think, the attitudeyou need to have, and it's not
about the more senior, the moreimportant yeah you have more
important decisions to take andmore responsibilities, but I
strongly believe everybodymatters.
Without anybody, you cannotsucceed.
Everybody's important in thatcontext.
There's not one person moreimportant.
Everybody's important.
But everybody has to play theirrole to be successful.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
What do you think has shaped that ethos for you?
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I guess I come from a hardworking, entrepreneurial
background, people who want toreally do well.
I grew up in a country that'spretty Calvinistic, but I think
for me what's more important isif you're really committed and I
try to dedicate my career fromearly on.
If a company, a business,thrives, it has a massive impact
on society.
It doesn't matter how big orsmall the company is.
(46:37):
First, the employees.
If people feel they're thrivingand developing and can
contribute and the company makessense and is purposeful and
we're making progress, theyleave with better energy when
they go home, to theirrelationships, to their
neighbors, to their community,or they're frustrated because
it's political and nothing isconfusing and no decisions are
made and they get frustrated.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
It's a massive thing your customers.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
you need to solve problems for your customers and
make them better, right For yoursupplies, for your community.
Making business organizationsthrive is a very noble,
extremely important role insociety.
Be one of the most importantroles that we have.
Of course, politics andgovernments create facilities
around it, but that's where alot of people are active and it
needs to thrive.
How to make that happen?
You won't make that happen bybig corner offices, hierarchy,
(47:23):
long meetings.
That's actually moving thingsbackwards.
So if you dedicate yourself asa team, it doesn't matter it can
be a smaller team, bigger team,senior role, smaller role.
But if that's what you want todo, yeah, there's some universal
principles how to get that done.
Creating an environment for usto thrive is a very important
one.
You feel, if an organization isthriving or not, you feel are
people that work there areengaged or not?
(47:44):
Did they take care of the stuffin the store?
Is so?
Then you feel if people areengaged or not, and I think you
feel every organization and Ithink as a leader, you need to
make sure that people areengaged.
There's a clarity, there'smoving forward and things are
happening.
And then some of the thingslike how big is the corner
office is not important.
That's the wrong element andthat's why I like PE and that's
(48:05):
for people who listen to you nowand want to go into PE.
Pe values value creation, rightShort-term, middle-term,
long-term.
So those skills are important.
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