September 24, 2024 • 34 mins
Send us your Questions for Jeremiah and Dan
Imagine working in a confined space where every moment demands utmost caution and adherence to strict safety protocols. Join us for an eye-opening discussion with Jeremiah Schoberg from UPC, as we uncover the critical measures required to ensure safety in such challenging environments. We'll dissect OSHA's definition of confined spaces, from attics and crawl spaces to industrial tanks and sewer lines. Our conversation will equip you with essential knowledge about marking confined spaces, completing necessary paperwork, and the importance of respiratory protection and fresh air systems. Jeremiah shares invaluable tips on maintaining constant communication between workers inside confined spaces and safety attendants outside, ensuring a secure and efficient workflow.
What happens when verbal communication isn’t an option? We'll dive into the world of nonverbal communication, particularly in spray foam application settings. Learn the significance of using light signals for equipment status and emergencies as we share practical advice on monitoring equipment sounds and recognizing potential issues. Our morning check protocols, including inspecting breathable air systems and ensuring proper ventilation, are designed to prevent accidents and maintain a safe working environment. A real-life anecdote illustrates the dire consequences of neglecting these checks, reinforcing the importance of vigilance.
Safety doesn't stop at communication; it extends to every piece of equipment and potential hazard in your workspace. Discover the common dangers lurking in confined spaces during spray foam applications, from unstable ladders to faulty air hoses and electrical hazards. Our discussion highlights the importance of stable equipment and thorough inspection to avoid accidents, especially when fatigue sets in. We round off the episode with a glimpse into our personal lives, sharing hobbies like motorcycling, BMX racing, fishing, hunting, competitive shooting, and aviation. Plus, get a sneak peek at our upcoming episodes covering electrical hazards, mental health, and PPE with industry experts.
For comments, suggestions, safety shares and questions email us at sprayfoammafia@gmail.com
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We want to hear from you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan (00:00):
From Spray Foam.
Arizona Jeremiah needs tointroduce everything.
Two guys, one mic.
Jeremiah (00:08):
I'm Jeremiah Schoberg from UPC.
Dan (00:11):
All right, this is episode six and we're here to talk about
confined spaces, confined spaceentry and how to keep yourself
safe in confined spaces.
IYou're in, yes, like I wastrying to die.
Yes, yes, you were, I was.
I was trying to die.
Yes, you were, I was, I wastrying to die.
You're trying to kill me too.
Exactly, and luckily we hadirelann there to keep us safe.
She did, she did so.
(00:34):
Um, confined space osha has anexact definition of it.
Many and is OSHA's website, andthey have it highlighted.
Many workplaces contain areasthat are considered confined
spaces because, while they'renot necessarily designed for
(00:56):
people, they are large enoughfor workers to enter and perform
certain jobs.
A confined space also has alimited or restricted means for
entry or exit and is notdesigned for continuous
occupancy.
In the spray foam world attics,crawl spaces are the first two
(01:16):
that come to my mind.
Jeremiah (01:23):
It's going to happen all the time now because you're
thinking about not damn it.
Dan (01:26):
There's another.
It's going to happen all thetime Not thinking about it, so
that's another one.
I'm sure, jeremiah, you've seenmore places than just where
traditionally we're thinkingattics and crawl spaces.
Jeremiah (01:49):
Yeah, there's.
You know we, in a lot of someof the buildings we've insulated
through the years that I'vebeen a part of, you know you
have, uh, concrete buildings.
You have a space in between theinterior ceiling and the
exterior ceiling that could beanywhere from two feet to four
feet and it's where they runeverything in, like hotels and
like commercial buildings andsome of the top floors, right,
so you'll have a reallyinteresting I call it
interesting space where there'sone access and it's basically,
like I said, two to four feet inbetween, six inches of concrete
on the top and bottom of you,and you're crawling around in
there insulating the roof, justdoing your thing, um, but that's
(02:13):
a little bit different.
You know, like you talked abouttanks and things like that,
right, yeah, yeah, on the littlehole, and you know right, I met
.
Dan (02:20):
I met some guys, uh, just the other day, and that's what
they were doing was they werespraying polyurea coatings
inside some water tanks and youlook at the manhole cover that
they pop off and are crawlingthrough and you know, if you're
lucky, that was 24 inches across, yeah, and they were crawling
in there.
I had never really seen a rigthat had that much respiratory
(02:46):
protection equipment stackedeverywhere.
I mean they had half a dozenmasks, filters, I mean they knew
respiratory protection wastheir thing.
Kind of neat to see when youlook at a lot of everybody
else's stuff that has a mask ortwo.
Maybe Everybody else is stuffthat has a mask or two, maybe.
(03:07):
So, anyway, so tanks, I knowthat there's guys that are in
manholes, sewer lines wherethey're lining those, whether it
be epoxy lined or polyureacoating line, all of those are
fit in the definition of aconfined space, yeah, of a
confined space.
So what's the first thingswe're going to do when we come
(03:27):
up to a job and we're hittingconfined spaces and we know
we're going into it?
Jeremiah (03:31):
Well, I mean you have to know the rules behind
confined space, like how do youenter, how do you work in the
confined space, how do you?
You know what's your safetymeasures right, and then in most
cases you know there might besome variables here, guys, so
don't quote me but you know mostcases in a confined space you
have to mark the confined spacehas to be marked clearly, so
(03:54):
when you're going in there'ssignage around it.
You know confined space entryis approved and you have to fill
out lots of paperwork to evengo into these spaces.
Like it's just you don't justshow up on, you know 8 am that
morning, get your hoses and goright in.
Like it takes time to preparethe paperwork and schedule your
time in there, because everyoneon the job site needs to know
someone is working in a confinedspace, especially when you're
(04:16):
applying coatings, epoxies, evenfoam in some of these cases too
, they need to know not to go inthere because, once again, like
you said, when you got on thatrig, the amount of respiratory
protection you saw was highlevel.
Those guys understand that aconfined space is a is a
situation that you have to takeevery precaution you can and
then like.
The next step for us was youalways had to have someone at
the access point, always, andyou had to have communication
(04:39):
between the access point guy andthe guy actually in the
confined space at all times.
So we had headsets or walkiesthat had the little headsets on
them.
So when you're in there, youhave to have constant
communication with your, withyour guy, at all times, and so
if something's going wrong, theyhave to be able to communicate.
So if they don't hear you, theyknow you need to get out.
Um, we've had guys, there'sguys pass out in the confined
(05:01):
space and the only way they gotout is they're tied off and they
pull them out.
Yeah, so there's once again likea few safety measures, like I
said, knowing it's confinedspace, how to work in there,
having your you know your siteguy or your safety guy at the
access point and, again, like Isaid, having air that's safe to
breathe.
You know most of these spaces,you know you're in there and, as
(05:21):
you know, from my point of view, any confined space you went in
was always fresh airautomatically.
Yes, there is no respiratorsusing a confined space where it
tells me that cartridge willlast for four hours or eight
hours.
I'm sorry, we're going to usefresh air.
Yes, that's fresh air beingpumped in the air Because once
again, guys, as you know, thecartridges just filtered the air
around you.
So if you are heating up andoff gassing in the air around
(05:44):
you, you probably don't want tobe using that air to try and
breathe, right?
So you want to be bringingfresh air in because once again,
it gives you that coolingeffect, it gives you fresh air,
and then you're safe and againyou can comfortably work longer.
Dan (06:00):
So let's talk about communication in different ways,
because when I started spraying, we were doing an attic, and
this is one of my favoritestories to tell, is so jackson,
my oldest son, is with me andI'm up in the attic and we're
trying radios.
Now, mind you, jackson probablyfound the timu, wishcom, amazon
(06:23):
lowest, cheapest radios.
And I was all the way up in theback of an attic having some
problems with the gun stickingand I'm trying to communicate to
him.
He's not getting it.
So I hump all the way out ofthat sucker, crawl down.
I'm already mad, already pissed, throw the mask off.
And God damn it, jackson, I waslooking for help up there and
(06:45):
you weren't doing anything.
And he's like I didn't knowwhat to do.
I said what do you mean?
You didn't know what to do.
He said sounded like darthvader was cussing me out.
Well, he got the cussing outpart right.
He did have that right, like heknew what, but he knows me well
enough to know that it'sprobably cuss words coming out
of my mouth at that point.
But so, um, the tactics, tips,tricks that you've come up with,
(07:09):
uh, for people to communicatethat may not just be verbal, and
the radio communication isgreat if you have one that works
.
We didn't, uh, so I don't knowif people can tell us like, jump
on facebook and be like hey,hey, we use this brand, or
whatever.
Jeremiah (07:27):
It's not like you said , dan, it's not just the verbal
communication.
We don't in any confined spaceswhere we'd always use headlamps
, Always.
Yeah, because the other niftything that headlamps have is if
you buy the right ones, theyhave anywhere from a steady beam
, a flashing beam, a steady redbeam or a flashing red beam.
You're talking about nonverbalcommunication, so we would
always stipulate there was termsor issues with depending.
(07:51):
Okay, if the beam's on constantand it's the white light, he's
working, going smooth, life isgood.
Beam is flashed, regular beam'sflashing Issue with application
Machine, depressurized,something like that.
Right, sure, so the guy willautomatically go check equipment
.
Yes, um, have someone you knowyou have to replace the guy at
the hole.
So the prep guy would have tocome to the hole, watch the guy
spraying and then you go checkthe equipment, of course, and
(08:13):
then you'd have, of course, thered, which is that's when things
are bad.
Right, so you have constant redwould be.
I need, he needs assistance outASAP.
The flashing red is water andsome lower level issue that we
would stipulate for thatflashing.
But that's how you would like.
I said, if you something's goingwrong, the idea was, if you
(08:33):
can't yell, hopefully you can atleast get that fricking hit the
button, so it's showing youknow, and that's how we would,
you know, deal with, say, thosehigher level emergencies where,
like I said, if you were out ofbreath or something, you can at
least remember that this is theway I'm going to try and
communicate, right.
Dan (08:50):
Another one.
It's small, it may seem stupid,but for the guy that's outside
that hole, if you're withinearshot of the spray foam
equipment and the pumps quitworking you don't hear them
cycling, you don't hear thestick pumps jumping up and down
there's probably something goingon and you better talk to that
(09:12):
guy that's on the end of thegutter.
Jeremiah (09:14):
Yeah because either he's moving to a new location,
which will only take a littlebit of time, and you're right.
Dan (09:19):
And he probably needs help moving that hose around.
Jeremiah (09:20):
Exactly right.
Dan (09:29):
Especially in a space where he's dealing with, you know,
small area or trying to climbaround yeah, ductworks, wiring,
gas lines, all the stuff youhave to maneuver around, and so
that's just a simple trick thatyou know.
We tell everybody, and I'm sure90 percent of the people that
are listening to this going well, yeah, dummy, we all knew that
well, you know, some do, somedon't.
Jeremiah (09:43):
You know, the information is not just for the
people that have all theexperience, but for the people
that are listening.
That don't right, because someguys don't know that stuff don't
know.
Hey, man, you know non-verbalcommunication and that's a
really good point, because a lotof guys are thinking about
being able to communicateverbally.
That's why, like headsets,walkie-talkies, you know,
nowadays guys are really lucky.
You know, we age ourself.
We have the next tell pushbutton back in the day, right,
(10:04):
yeah, now guys have the reallynice bluetooth.
You know headphones.
A lot of guys listen to music.
Even though I don't recommendin confined space, right, it
gives you an opportunity to havesomething here that you can.
You know, hopefully you can atleast dial and get communication
right yes, yeah, for sure, okay.
Dan (10:20):
So we're starting out our day.
We're going up to the crawlspace.
You know we've identified who'sspraying first.
You know we're getting thingsgoing.
What do we need to do?
What do we need to prep thearea with?
Jeremiah (10:33):
Like I said, you check to make sure your breathable
air, your pumps are working,whether it's in the rig or you
know.
I don't recommend the littlehandheld units in confined space
because once again that pullsair from the surrounding area.
So you know, we always try andrecommend to have the more
filtered system that's out ofthe job site area, of course.
So you check your filters, makesure there's no alarms, make
sure you have good breathableair.
Check your airlines, make surethere's no cuts or kinks or ways
(10:57):
that the air can escape,because you're going to want all
that air.
Dan (11:00):
Right.
Jeremiah (11:00):
Trust me, yo, every bit of it you'd like.
I said it's, you know, onceagain, it's the normal morning
checks, you know, is my, am I?
Is my gun leaking?
Do I have misting?
Because again, that's a big one.
For because if you're going inconfined space and you know, in
the house sometimes, guys,you'll see a little vapor.
Yes, okay cool, that's all right, it's just a little bit.
No, we tell you, no, it's notokay, but in a confined fate
(11:21):
it's exponentially worse,because you're filling that
space with whatever's mistingout of the gun.
Yeah, of course, if it's vapor,that's okay.
Water vapor, that's going tocreate another issue in
application, but not forbreathable air, right.
But all those little things,like I said, you know, is
everything working as it should?
Can I pressurize up?
Is anything leaking?
Because once you're in there,you want to be working and you
want to be able to be safe whileyou're doing this, like I.
(11:42):
Like I said air, you know thestuff you need mechanical,
electrical and air.
Is everything working the wayit should before I climb in this
hole?
Dan (11:49):
So, a while back there's a little tiny garage.
We're a mile from the house,basically a neighbor, and he's
got a detached garage from hishouse.
We're going up there to sprayhis attic for him.
There's, it's built right wherethere's no gable vents on the
ends of it.
I mean it's prime for foam tobe up there.
So we go to the access hatch,get everything ready to go.
(12:12):
Jake, my helper comes up thereand props a fan up to blow air
up inside there, and so I'm inthere spraying, you know, happy
as can be for a little while.
He's got everything going, he'swatching, making sure
everything's working right andsafe, and we are making this fog
(12:35):
of crap through the wholebuilding.
I mean like you cannot see backacross this thing.
And I'm hollering at him likemake sure that damn fan's
pumping air.
Well, my mistake was one fan,yes, sir.
Jeremiah (12:51):
Yeah, confined space.
You want to be exchanging air,not just introducing and
compressing.
Yeah, you're pressurizing in avery low level that area.
Know, very low, low level thatthat area, right?
Um, if you're not pushing andpulling air in, you're not
bringing in fresh air whileyou're pulling out the off
(13:12):
gassing or the heat or anythingelse, right?
So, yeah, that was your onemistake, you gotta it.
It has to breathe as you needto breathe if you know you want
the area, like you said, youwant all that stuff get out of
there and of course, you have tohave filtered systems to do
that in those type ofapplications.
Dan (13:26):
But yeah, pushing, pushing air in is just not enough right,
it was nice when I walked backtowards it and I had all that
fresh air blowing on me to cooloff a little bit, but didn't do
us any good for air qualityinside that thing.
Uh, the other thing it didn'tdo me any good is venting the
off gassing for the long-termeffects of that phone.
(13:47):
Yeah, you know.
No, I think there is somerecommendations as to what we
should be doing there and Ibelieve I was violating rule
number one.
Jeremiah (13:55):
Yes, usually it's about, you know, in a,
especially in a confined,confined space application, it's
at least 24 hours and if thesquare footage dictates that, I
would recommend it'd be 48.
You know, and I it's.
You know, I tell guys.
If you want a number, I usuallyI tell guys anything above, you
know, 25, 2000 to 2,500 squarefeet, depending on the
(14:16):
application.
It's going to be 48 hours.
Anything from zero to 2,500 isgoing to be 24, depending on,
once again, if it's a high roofand there's a lot more foam
going in Dan, or it's a lot morefoam going in Dan, or it's a
really long, distant, confinedspace, it's going to take a
little longer to pull all thatair out.
Then, yes, there's going to bechanges.
But I always tell call, callyour tech reps, ask them these
questions.
You don't try and go it alonebecause you don't have to, but
(14:39):
usually those are the numbersand that's what I try and tell
guys.
Look, if you have a question,call.
But that's how you break itdown.
Yeah, and that's again havingto have intake and exhaust,
correct Cross ventilation, crossventilation, cross ventilation
it's called air exchange, airexchanges.
Yes, and that's what we say 24hours to 48 hours, depending on.
You know product and squarefootage is kind of what you're
(15:00):
looking at.
Dan (15:00):
Right and and during, by the way, and during, during and
during.
By the way, and during, during,during, not just like, oh, OK,
we shut it down.
Clock starts now.
We've been spraying for threedays straight.
Jeremiah (15:10):
Let's turn the fans on .
Let's turn the fans on nowDuring as well.
Guys, it's for your benefit andthe product and the application
.
Dan (15:18):
And it also that time doesn't start after your helper
has gone up there to help youbring all the hoses and stuff
down.
To help you bring all the hosesand stuff down, that guy should
be up there with respirators,everything else to help you.
You know, maybe after 24 hours,okay, but when you're done
spraying, the valve, shut off,the gun shut off, keep the ding
(15:42):
mask on while you're up there.
It is still stale.
Jeremiah (15:47):
Yeah, it is for sure, it's like I said, especially in
confined space.
It is for sure it's like I said, especially in confined space.
There's no, it's unvented bydesign.
So like you have to vent it,like you have to be the
mechanical part of that,invented yourself.
Like it's not a vented atticthat you're sealing, it's not a
retrofit that you know you'retaking, you're sealing off the
bird blocks, it's confined space.
Dan (16:05):
You, in essence, have to create that exchange yourself
and as insulators, as airsealers, the better job we do,
the worse we're making itourselves for air quality up
there until it's done andproperly vented out.
Jeremiah (16:20):
Well, again, we can.
You can also, like said in a, ina very loose term, you can look
at a retrofit as a confinedspace because, dan, you just
said it, you're creating yourown confined space.
Yes, and when we tell, whenwe're talking to guys about
retrofits, you know most guyswill go in, they'll go to the
far end, they'll sprayeverything gables, vents,
everything work their way out.
I was like no, like I know youdon't want to hear this, but you
(16:43):
need to leave the gables open.
Yes, you need to leave thingsopen where air can be pulled in,
pushed out during theapplication.
So I was like I know it's notthe most efficient way, but you
need to pick and know thatbefore you walk in, because you
are, you're creating your ownair barrier, you're sealing
yourself off.
So you're slowly creatingconfined space, especially in
retrofit that has one atticaccess, right, so then, that's
(17:05):
one of those ones.
It's a little different becausewhen you go into it, there's
venting, there's everything else, but, like you said, you are
closing yourself off andcreating confined space as you
actually do your job.
So, right, you got to also takethose kind of factors into play
when you're thinking aboutthese things and it's easy for
us to go right to air qualityand right to respiratory
protection right there.
Dan (17:25):
But there's other factors going in there and one of them
is access and a lot of what inthe spray foam industry we see
as confined space.
Entry is either crawling up anattic or down into a crawl space
through some opening.
I don't know how many timesI've gone and you know you see
(17:48):
somebody on a job site somewhere.
You stop and say hello and theyhave Baker scaffolding that
they're climbing up and downwith no wheel locks on.
You know the brakes aren't seton it.
The ladders that are in theworst condition possible.
You know I made somebody throwaway her favorite ladder the
(18:11):
other day and she was reallypissed at me about it.
Unsafe as well, and the jaggedpiece of metal sticking out of
the base was right at her ankle.
Oh, that'll do it.
Yeah, katie, sorry You've gotto get rid of that one.
I know you love it, but therewas some pouting on.
But so, again, the plan thatyou're making you need to plan
(18:35):
your entry and plan your exitand know a safe way to get in
and out.
Crawl spaces I don't deal withthem a lot.
A lot of our construction isslab on grade around here.
I don't deal with them a lot.
A lot of our construction isslab on grade around here.
Getting in and out of a crawlspace when you're six foot one
and 220 pounds is not idealsometimes.
(18:56):
No, in an 18 inch crawl space.
18 inch, yeah, on a good day uh.
So nail screws um, uh, like theconnector plates that are
always sticking up right there.
You know, I don't know how manytimes I crawl up there and put
(19:16):
my arm in there, tear the dangsleeve of my suit, yeah, and
that always pisses me off likethere's money out the door right
there.
I hadn't even sprayed anythingyet, that's's how it?
goes yeah.
So what have you seen?
Well, what have you seen thatscares you and what have you
seen that you'd like to see whenguys are getting in and out of
those really tight spaces as faras physical access goes?
Jeremiah (19:40):
As far as physical access goes, you know, like I
said, dan, it's doing, doing theright way.
You know, like you said, youdon't, don't have your access to
confined space.
Be the rickety ladder that whenyou come out after two hours of
spraying is gonna wiggle.
When you're kind of drained andneed some act, you know, need
some hydration.
You know little the littlestuff.
Like you said, take a second tothink like, okay, when I'm
(20:00):
tired and worn out what mighthappen?
Right, and that's what I tryand tell guys.
Not when you're 100, afteryou've been spraying for six
hours straight, what is possible?
Um, can I slip on the ladder?
It's a little rickety, you know, if it's wiggling because the
supports are, you know thingslike that is.
You know, is the air hosethat's connecting my mask?
Is it?
(20:20):
Should I have replaced itbefore I started because it's a
little wiggly?
It's been popping out.
You know it's that stuff, right?
Yeah, like it's all.
It's always the little thingsthat add up to the big things
and cause an issue for forapplicators so that's what I say
is you know, once again, wekeep.
I think we repeat ourselves.
You know, just take time andtake the steps and don't skip
any when you're doing thesesituations right, because
(20:42):
there's no corner to cut in theconfined space, like you don't
want to think about that, right?
You know, do it right.
Don't think how fast can I getin and out?
Okay, what's the right way todo it and the most efficient?
Dan (20:53):
so yeah, and so those of us in the spray foam world a lot
of times doing retrofits or evennew construction in some of
these confined spaces.
Other trades have been therealready.
We're usually the last one inbefore they seal.
That sucker up all the wayElectrical hazards, gas hazards,
(21:14):
what have you seen?
What do you like to do tomitigate some of those?
Jeremiah (21:19):
I haven't had many gas .
I mean we haven't had gashazards really, you know,
besides turning, you knowsomebody accidentally hitting
the valve that shuts off thefurnace.
You know what the heck you goup there.
More electrical, um, I have tosay, when you go in these space,
look what's the age of thehouse You're going to see some
knob and tube.
Dan (21:38):
That's in a box it doesn't have a plate.
Jeremiah (21:38):
for me it's.
It's always electrical.
It is because I just I see moreissues with electrical.
Like you know, renovations Isit a remodel, new construction?
No, thankfully, dan, once againthat's not one of the things
you have.
It's not even hooked up topower.
But I say, you know, if you'redoing big buildings and this and
stuff, you know electrical isthe kind of thing you want to
look out for when you'recrawling around.
Dan (22:09):
Because I myself, like I said I used to, not, you know
young, and you lean back, youtake a full volt, the wires are
exposed and things like that.
Yeah, we've got some pictures,but I was looking in an attic
last Saturday and I'm up therewalking around because it's one
of those where we're going tohave to vacuum it out.
There's a whopping like twoinches of old cellulose in the
roof of this thing.
I mean, it's cherry, it's mint,you know.
And walking around, you knowcrawling around, looking at
(22:29):
everything, just kind of puttingour plan together, and you know
Katie's there and she's lookingat it, and we look down and
literally there's a box thereand the wire nut holding two
wires together is sitting in thebottom of the J box.
I'm like, oh perfect, there'sno cover on it.
(22:51):
The wires are exposed, the youknow the copper bear, copper
ends are exposed.
But at least somebody put awire nut in the box to make it
easier for people Like put it on.
Yeah, they thought about it.
They didn't leave us anyelectrical tape though where we
could really put it on right.
That's probably why it poppedoff in the first place.
(23:11):
Ok, but we're not electricians.
We need to make that fulldisclosure.
We are not licensed electricalcontractors to tell you what's
proper?
No, but we feel the duct tapeis so box covers.
So, uh, box covers.
(23:32):
Uh, I don't know how many ofthese houses around here that
are built in the 60s or 70s.
They put metallic j boxes inthem, but they never put a cover
plate on.
Yes, so again, major risk rightthere, because you're going to
walk across, you're going todrag a hose across that or
something and you're alreadypulling plenty of voltage, you
know, wrapped around your hosekeeping the heat going.
So, hey, let's add to the fun.
(23:53):
Um, and as a guy that has had aelectrocution issue in the past
, I'm a little sensitive when itcomes to that.
Yeah, same here.
Um, so breakers can be turnedoff.
Jeremiah (24:05):
yeah, well, I was just going to say, like the simple
question is there going to bepower to the facility when I'm
there, like like, if you knowthat's an easy question to ask
when you go there, like, isthere power, is there electrical
, and is it charged where I'mgoing to be at?
So you know, you can always askthose simple questions to just
to know how to prepare a littlebit.
Dan (24:22):
Right.
Jeremiah (24:22):
But most of the time we walk into a situation where,
like you see it, and you're like, oh right, not like it was,
there's a forewarning right.
It's usually like, oh shoot,now I've got to deal with this
more than right.
Dan (24:32):
Wow, I'm glad I knew about this before I got here and yeah,
look at the instant I'm talkingabout.
We saw it before we ever, youknow, before we even ever put
the job on the schedule.
We saw it to bid it and quote.
And it doesn't happen a lotthat that is just happened to be
that one and we'll have to putthe pictures up.
I didn't think.
Jeremiah (24:53):
I did think one about gas tan.
Like you know, you want to lookfor the flexible lines.
Yeah, I've had guys kink in ajob not mine but kink the lines
like sit on them.
Like you said, the hose goesover it and sometimes they have
that flexible line coming fromthe main gas to the, to the unit
itself and that can kink it's.
You know it's plastic and metal, right, you know, good guys
(25:13):
stepping on it can compress itdown.
I guess safety wise in theconfined space and those you
know, look for those flexiblelines because you can kink and
that can cause a greater issueof course.
So that's kind of popped in myhead.
Dan (25:24):
Yes, so that's kind of popped in my head, yes, and if
you're in an attic and there isa furnace up there, make sure
you know the proper way to spraythat attic.
Yeah With that.
Jeremiah (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's gas and you know there's a lot of a
lot of back and forth on how toinsulate or if to insulate when
it's a gas, or you know the 80lower than 80 percent efficient
furnaces and things like that.
There's a lot of discussion,but that's a different podcast
altogether.
Dan (25:51):
Yeah, exactly that's a.
Please consult your techsupport team.
They will gladly help you withall of that stuff Gladly talk to
you about what to insulate andwhat not.
And if you don't have a goodtech support person, call us,
we'll hook you up with somebody,we'll find one.
We will find somebody to helpyou out with that.
Ductwork.
Duck work is jagged.
You know, somebody bendingputting pans together, putting
ducks together.
(26:12):
There's more sharp edges onduck work than anywhere else I
see in an attic anywhere.
That's true Corners of thosethings.
Like I said earlier, the platesthat they tie trusses together
with those scare the crap out ofme when my hoses are being
pulled through.
An god I, even on new builds, Isee those.
Jeremiah (26:33):
those just bother the hell out of me yeah, when you're
crawling around these spaces,that you have one way in, one
way out.
It's definitely important tounderstand, like, what can get
caught on stuff, because after,once again, if you've been in
there long enough and some it'sdifferent than if you just
started you know something getscaught.
You get kind of, you know,stuck in a corner or your hose
does like.
It's a different situation whenyou know your access is 50 feet
(26:54):
away, right, you know so andit's easy going in because your
helper's right behind you.
Dan (26:59):
You guys are just, you know , happiest could be.
Go lucky, we're gonna spraythis attic today or whatever,
and you know, two of you arewalking that hose.
I guess the other big thingthat I want to talk to about
confined space especially whenit comes to addicts, because
that's where it's reallyprevalent in the spray foam
industry is, in an emergency,the number one easiest place to
(27:20):
get that guy out is through thesheetrock.
Yes, I don't like to pay toreplace sheetrock.
I will gladly pay to replacesheetrock so that my people on
my crew come back tomorrow.
Jeremiah (27:37):
Yeah, it's, sheetrocks it.
It might be a long discussionwith what you know, the customer
, but it comes down to safetyand if you get in a situation
and I I've had I've told guysthat I think then you and I've
talked about that, yeah, itcomes to it go through.
Definitely I will not be mad ifyou were stuck and stressed and
had to go through for safetylike I'm.
So it's a conversation I'mwilling to have with a customer
(28:00):
and explain what happened, fixit and move on, because I have
not met one customer that hasn'tunderstood when it's that
situation.
You know.
Of course there's the oneswhere they're like what, how'd
that?
happen, but in those situationsI've never had a customer be
like oh my gosh what the heck?
Yes, it's always, are they okay?
Thanks for telling me.
I'm glad everything worked out.
Thanks for fixing it and youmove on right.
Dan (28:19):
Exactly.
Do not be afraid to do it if itgets to.
Don't put a second guy in a badspace trying to save the first
guy.
Yeah, just go through thesheetrock.
Jeremiah (28:33):
Yeah, do what you have to do.
You know if, if something'sgoing wrong and he's in there
and you go in, yeah what?
If, like you said, you both getcaught Right.
Dan (28:43):
Exactly.
And and is there a third guy tosave you at that point?
Yeah, is there guy to save youat that point?
Yeah, is there?
Is there?
Isn't?
If there isn't, yeah, no, don'tbe afraid to do it.
And every spray foam employee,spray foam arizona employee
that's listening to this today,I'm reiterating it to you guys.
You know it's that big a dealto us that do not be afraid to
(29:04):
do that.
And all right.
So call to action on confinedspaces.
Know your ventilation, planyour ventilation engineering
controls.
Jeremiah (29:19):
Everything is planned before you go into that space,
like there shouldn't besomething you show up to the job
in oh shoot, we need this, no,these.
In these situations, everythingshould be there.
You should be prepared beforeyou go in.
Dan (29:31):
Right, and guys that are doing this on a regular basis.
I mean, there's guys who dothis every single day.
Their whole business isremovals and reinstalls and
retrofits.
You guys know what's up, butstill think ahead far enough to
plan, be diligent about it.
So that's our call to action.
(29:53):
Confined spaces, now listenerquestions.
We've had a few come in, someof them better than others, so I
do not have an OnlyFans page.
Thank you for asking, though.
Oh man, one of them was hobbies.
(30:16):
What do you do outside of theworld of spray foam and outside
the world of this podcast?
Are you asking me to?
That's what somebody else isasking.
Jeremiah (30:25):
Okay, um.
Well, I have three um kids thatwe that live with me and one
that doesn't, so that you knowwhen I'm not, you know, working
I'm spending time with them.
You know they do soccer dramakarate Keeps me pretty busy For
myself, you know.
Besides, that you knowselfishly I, you know I ride
(30:46):
motorcycles.
I ride BMX.
I've gotten recently back intoracing.
God help me.
Dan (30:51):
Nice, we'll see how that goes.
You need somebody to buy you agood helmet.
I got a good helmet.
Jeremiah (30:57):
It's a good, good helmet.
Right, it's a good, good helmet.
Okay, All right, good.
I do fish and hunt when we dohave time to do it.
That's also very enjoyable.
Dan (31:11):
Yeah, very enjoyable.
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, whatabout yourself?
Well, again, similar scenariothree kids at home.
One of them just lives up thestreet, uh, and a lot of time
with him.
We've got kids in band, uh,we've got, yeah, uh, two of the
two of the boys are competitiveshotgun shooters.
So we spend a lot of time atthe shooting range breaking,
breaking clays hopefully,breaking clays, hopefully,
(31:31):
hopefully breaking clays.
The averages are better for usthese days.
That's good From well.
We're always working onsomething.
I've got my oldest son just gotdone putting a six OLS swap in
a little single cab, littleshort bed truck.
Nice, souped it up, you know,new cams, everything else.
(31:52):
It's pumping like you know six,seven hundred horsepower out of
some little tiny truck.
Jeremiah (31:56):
So that's nice.
Dan (31:57):
Yeah, those are fun for myself.
I've been a licensed pilot for20 something years.
I really enjoy the world ofaviation.
Like I said, that's been alifelong passion, uh, something
my dad and I'd always donetogether, so it's kind of a
family thing.
That's been awesome and fun.
Uh, it's a great way for me tojust get away from the world.
(32:19):
I've always thought about ittoo.
That definitely, yeah, haspotential.
It's peaceful.
I bet there's days it is sopeaceful and quiet.
Four thousand five you knowfour or five thousand feet up.
The world is just looksdifferent up there, and
Kristen's always made thecomment like you go fly, you're
different when you come home,and so aviation is a big hobby.
(32:41):
I can always gather up anotherhobby, it seems like, and so
there's always been.
You know the ones here andthere.
But again, the kids're.
They're banned, they're shotgun, shooting, uh, 4-h activities.
Kids have show pigs right now,and flying.
That's the big ones that cantake up our money fast.
They can.
Time sorry, time is what I mean, not money time their hobbies
(33:04):
just get more expensive as theyget old?
they do.
Yes, they sure seem to Allright.
So, everybody, episode six,confined Spaces.
We've got quite a few morecoming up.
We're looking at electricalhazards.
We're going to get Carlos, anelectrician, that's going to
come in and talk to us.
We've got some mental healthstuff coming up.
Jeremiah (33:24):
More stuff on OSHA and safety and PPE coming up from
some guys from the industry.
Dan (33:29):
Yeah some awesome guests coming in on PPE, some really
cool stuff coming in on thatstuff.
So again, like and subscribe.
Spray Foam Mafia is theFacebook page.
Follow us, subscribe whateveryou can on all of your favorite
podcast platforms and we willsee you next week.
Thanks a lot, guys.
From Spray Foam.
Arizona Jeremiah needs tointroduce everything.
Two guys, one mic.
Jeremiah (00:08):
I'm Jeremiah Schoberg from UPC.
Dan (00:11):
All right, this is episode six and we're here to talk about
confined spaces, confined spaceentry and how to keep yourself
safe in confined spaces.
IYou're in, yes, like I wastrying to die.
Yes, yes, you were, I was.
I was trying to die.
Yes, you were, I was, I wastrying to die.
You're trying to kill me too.
Exactly, and luckily we hadirelann there to keep us safe.
She did, she did so.
(00:34):
Um, confined space osha has anexact definition of it.
Many and is OSHA's website, andthey have it highlighted.
Many workplaces contain areasthat are considered confined
spaces because, while they'renot necessarily designed for
(00:56):
people, they are large enoughfor workers to enter and perform
certain jobs.
A confined space also has alimited or restricted means for
entry or exit and is notdesigned for continuous
occupancy.
In the spray foam world attics,crawl spaces are the first two
(01:16):
that come to my mind.
Jeremiah (01:23):
It's going to happen all the time now because you're
thinking about not damn it.
Dan (01:26):
There's another.
It's going to happen all thetime Not thinking about it, so
that's another one.
I'm sure, jeremiah, you've seenmore places than just where
traditionally we're thinkingattics and crawl spaces.
Jeremiah (01:49):
Yeah, there's.
You know we, in a lot of someof the buildings we've insulated
through the years that I'vebeen a part of, you know you
have, uh, concrete buildings.
You have a space in between theinterior ceiling and the
exterior ceiling that could beanywhere from two feet to four
feet and it's where they runeverything in, like hotels and
like commercial buildings andsome of the top floors, right,
so you'll have a reallyinteresting I call it
interesting space where there'sone access and it's basically,
like I said, two to four feet inbetween, six inches of concrete
on the top and bottom of you,and you're crawling around in
there insulating the roof, justdoing your thing, um, but that's
(02:13):
a little bit different.
You know, like you talked abouttanks and things like that,
right, yeah, yeah, on the littlehole, and you know right, I met
.
Dan (02:20):
I met some guys, uh, just the other day, and that's what
they were doing was they werespraying polyurea coatings
inside some water tanks and youlook at the manhole cover that
they pop off and are crawlingthrough and you know, if you're
lucky, that was 24 inches across, yeah, and they were crawling
in there.
I had never really seen a rigthat had that much respiratory
(02:46):
protection equipment stackedeverywhere.
I mean they had half a dozenmasks, filters, I mean they knew
respiratory protection wastheir thing.
Kind of neat to see when youlook at a lot of everybody
else's stuff that has a mask ortwo.
Maybe Everybody else is stuffthat has a mask or two, maybe.
(03:07):
So, anyway, so tanks, I knowthat there's guys that are in
manholes, sewer lines wherethey're lining those, whether it
be epoxy lined or polyureacoating line, all of those are
fit in the definition of aconfined space, yeah, of a
confined space.
So what's the first thingswe're going to do when we come
(03:27):
up to a job and we're hittingconfined spaces and we know
we're going into it?
Jeremiah (03:31):
Well, I mean you have to know the rules behind
confined space, like how do youenter, how do you work in the
confined space, how do you?
You know what's your safetymeasures right, and then in most
cases you know there might besome variables here, guys, so
don't quote me but you know mostcases in a confined space you
have to mark the confined spacehas to be marked clearly, so
(03:54):
when you're going in there'ssignage around it.
You know confined space entryis approved and you have to fill
out lots of paperwork to evengo into these spaces.
Like it's just you don't justshow up on, you know 8 am that
morning, get your hoses and goright in.
Like it takes time to preparethe paperwork and schedule your
time in there, because everyoneon the job site needs to know
someone is working in a confinedspace, especially when you're
(04:16):
applying coatings, epoxies, evenfoam in some of these cases too
, they need to know not to go inthere because, once again, like
you said, when you got on thatrig, the amount of respiratory
protection you saw was highlevel.
Those guys understand that aconfined space is a is a
situation that you have to takeevery precaution you can and
then like.
The next step for us was youalways had to have someone at
the access point, always, andyou had to have communication
(04:39):
between the access point guy andthe guy actually in the
confined space at all times.
So we had headsets or walkiesthat had the little headsets on
them.
So when you're in there, youhave to have constant
communication with your, withyour guy, at all times, and so
if something's going wrong, theyhave to be able to communicate.
So if they don't hear you, theyknow you need to get out.
Um, we've had guys, there'sguys pass out in the confined
(05:01):
space and the only way they gotout is they're tied off and they
pull them out.
Yeah, so there's once again likea few safety measures, like I
said, knowing it's confinedspace, how to work in there,
having your you know your siteguy or your safety guy at the
access point and, again, like Isaid, having air that's safe to
breathe.
You know most of these spaces,you know you're in there and, as
(05:21):
you know, from my point of view, any confined space you went in
was always fresh airautomatically.
Yes, there is no respiratorsusing a confined space where it
tells me that cartridge willlast for four hours or eight
hours.
I'm sorry, we're going to usefresh air.
Yes, that's fresh air beingpumped in the air Because once
again, guys, as you know, thecartridges just filtered the air
around you.
So if you are heating up andoff gassing in the air around
(05:44):
you, you probably don't want tobe using that air to try and
breathe, right?
So you want to be bringingfresh air in because once again,
it gives you that coolingeffect, it gives you fresh air,
and then you're safe and againyou can comfortably work longer.
Dan (06:00):
So let's talk about communication in different ways,
because when I started spraying, we were doing an attic, and
this is one of my favoritestories to tell, is so jackson,
my oldest son, is with me andI'm up in the attic and we're
trying radios.
Now, mind you, jackson probablyfound the timu, wishcom, amazon
(06:23):
lowest, cheapest radios.
And I was all the way up in theback of an attic having some
problems with the gun stickingand I'm trying to communicate to
him.
He's not getting it.
So I hump all the way out ofthat sucker, crawl down.
I'm already mad, already pissed, throw the mask off.
And God damn it, jackson, I waslooking for help up there and
(06:45):
you weren't doing anything.
And he's like I didn't knowwhat to do.
I said what do you mean?
You didn't know what to do.
He said sounded like darthvader was cussing me out.
Well, he got the cussing outpart right.
He did have that right, like heknew what, but he knows me well
enough to know that it'sprobably cuss words coming out
of my mouth at that point.
But so, um, the tactics, tips,tricks that you've come up with,
(07:09):
uh, for people to communicatethat may not just be verbal, and
the radio communication isgreat if you have one that works
.
We didn't, uh, so I don't knowif people can tell us like, jump
on facebook and be like hey,hey, we use this brand, or
whatever.
Jeremiah (07:27):
It's not like you said , dan, it's not just the verbal
communication.
We don't in any confined spaceswhere we'd always use headlamps
, Always.
Yeah, because the other niftything that headlamps have is if
you buy the right ones, theyhave anywhere from a steady beam
, a flashing beam, a steady redbeam or a flashing red beam.
You're talking about nonverbalcommunication, so we would
always stipulate there was termsor issues with depending.
(07:51):
Okay, if the beam's on constantand it's the white light, he's
working, going smooth, life isgood.
Beam is flashed, regular beam'sflashing Issue with application
Machine, depressurized,something like that.
Right, sure, so the guy willautomatically go check equipment
.
Yes, um, have someone you knowyou have to replace the guy at
the hole.
So the prep guy would have tocome to the hole, watch the guy
spraying and then you go checkthe equipment, of course, and
(08:13):
then you'd have, of course, thered, which is that's when things
are bad.
Right, so you have constant redwould be.
I need, he needs assistance outASAP.
The flashing red is water andsome lower level issue that we
would stipulate for thatflashing.
But that's how you would like.
I said, if you something's goingwrong, the idea was, if you
(08:33):
can't yell, hopefully you can atleast get that fricking hit the
button, so it's showing youknow, and that's how we would,
you know, deal with, say, thosehigher level emergencies where,
like I said, if you were out ofbreath or something, you can at
least remember that this is theway I'm going to try and
communicate, right.
Dan (08:50):
Another one.
It's small, it may seem stupid,but for the guy that's outside
that hole, if you're withinearshot of the spray foam
equipment and the pumps quitworking you don't hear them
cycling, you don't hear thestick pumps jumping up and down
there's probably something goingon and you better talk to that
(09:12):
guy that's on the end of thegutter.
Jeremiah (09:14):
Yeah because either he's moving to a new location,
which will only take a littlebit of time, and you're right.
Dan (09:19):
And he probably needs help moving that hose around.
Jeremiah (09:20):
Exactly right.
Dan (09:29):
Especially in a space where he's dealing with, you know,
small area or trying to climbaround yeah, ductworks, wiring,
gas lines, all the stuff youhave to maneuver around, and so
that's just a simple trick thatyou know.
We tell everybody, and I'm sure90 percent of the people that
are listening to this going well, yeah, dummy, we all knew that
well, you know, some do, somedon't.
Jeremiah (09:43):
You know, the information is not just for the
people that have all theexperience, but for the people
that are listening.
That don't right, because someguys don't know that stuff don't
know.
Hey, man, you know non-verbalcommunication and that's a
really good point, because a lotof guys are thinking about
being able to communicateverbally.
That's why, like headsets,walkie-talkies, you know,
nowadays guys are really lucky.
You know, we age ourself.
We have the next tell pushbutton back in the day, right,
(10:04):
yeah, now guys have the reallynice bluetooth.
You know headphones.
A lot of guys listen to music.
Even though I don't recommendin confined space, right, it
gives you an opportunity to havesomething here that you can.
You know, hopefully you can atleast dial and get communication
right yes, yeah, for sure, okay.
Dan (10:20):
So we're starting out our day.
We're going up to the crawlspace.
You know we've identified who'sspraying first.
You know we're getting thingsgoing.
What do we need to do?
What do we need to prep thearea with?
Jeremiah (10:33):
Like I said, you check to make sure your breathable
air, your pumps are working,whether it's in the rig or you
know.
I don't recommend the littlehandheld units in confined space
because once again that pullsair from the surrounding area.
So you know, we always try andrecommend to have the more
filtered system that's out ofthe job site area, of course.
So you check your filters, makesure there's no alarms, make
sure you have good breathableair.
Check your airlines, make surethere's no cuts or kinks or ways
(10:57):
that the air can escape,because you're going to want all
that air.
Dan (11:00):
Right.
Jeremiah (11:00):
Trust me, yo, every bit of it you'd like.
I said it's, you know, onceagain, it's the normal morning
checks, you know, is my, am I?
Is my gun leaking?
Do I have misting?
Because again, that's a big one.
For because if you're going inconfined space and you know, in
the house sometimes, guys,you'll see a little vapor.
Yes, okay cool, that's all right, it's just a little bit.
No, we tell you, no, it's notokay, but in a confined fate
(11:21):
it's exponentially worse,because you're filling that
space with whatever's mistingout of the gun.
Yeah, of course, if it's vapor,that's okay.
Water vapor, that's going tocreate another issue in
application, but not forbreathable air, right.
But all those little things,like I said, you know, is
everything working as it should?
Can I pressurize up?
Is anything leaking?
Because once you're in there,you want to be working and you
want to be able to be safe whileyou're doing this, like I.
(11:42):
Like I said air, you know thestuff you need mechanical,
electrical and air.
Is everything working the wayit should before I climb in this
hole?
Dan (11:49):
So, a while back there's a little tiny garage.
We're a mile from the house,basically a neighbor, and he's
got a detached garage from hishouse.
We're going up there to sprayhis attic for him.
There's, it's built right wherethere's no gable vents on the
ends of it.
I mean it's prime for foam tobe up there.
So we go to the access hatch,get everything ready to go.
(12:12):
Jake, my helper comes up thereand props a fan up to blow air
up inside there, and so I'm inthere spraying, you know, happy
as can be for a little while.
He's got everything going, he'swatching, making sure
everything's working right andsafe, and we are making this fog
(12:35):
of crap through the wholebuilding.
I mean like you cannot see backacross this thing.
And I'm hollering at him likemake sure that damn fan's
pumping air.
Well, my mistake was one fan,yes, sir.
Jeremiah (12:51):
Yeah, confined space.
You want to be exchanging air,not just introducing and
compressing.
Yeah, you're pressurizing in avery low level that area.
Know, very low, low level thatthat area, right?
Um, if you're not pushing andpulling air in, you're not
bringing in fresh air whileyou're pulling out the off
(13:12):
gassing or the heat or anythingelse, right?
So, yeah, that was your onemistake, you gotta it.
It has to breathe as you needto breathe if you know you want
the area, like you said, youwant all that stuff get out of
there and of course, you have tohave filtered systems to do
that in those type ofapplications.
Dan (13:26):
But yeah, pushing, pushing air in is just not enough right,
it was nice when I walked backtowards it and I had all that
fresh air blowing on me to cooloff a little bit, but didn't do
us any good for air qualityinside that thing.
Uh, the other thing it didn'tdo me any good is venting the
off gassing for the long-termeffects of that phone.
(13:47):
Yeah, you know.
No, I think there is somerecommendations as to what we
should be doing there and Ibelieve I was violating rule
number one.
Jeremiah (13:55):
Yes, usually it's about, you know, in a,
especially in a confined,confined space application, it's
at least 24 hours and if thesquare footage dictates that, I
would recommend it'd be 48.
You know, and I it's.
You know, I tell guys.
If you want a number, I usuallyI tell guys anything above, you
know, 25, 2000 to 2,500 squarefeet, depending on the
(14:16):
application.
It's going to be 48 hours.
Anything from zero to 2,500 isgoing to be 24, depending on,
once again, if it's a high roofand there's a lot more foam
going in Dan, or it's a lot morefoam going in Dan, or it's a
really long, distant, confinedspace, it's going to take a
little longer to pull all thatair out.
Then, yes, there's going to bechanges.
But I always tell call, callyour tech reps, ask them these
questions.
You don't try and go it alonebecause you don't have to, but
(14:39):
usually those are the numbersand that's what I try and tell
guys.
Look, if you have a question,call.
But that's how you break itdown.
Yeah, and that's again havingto have intake and exhaust,
correct Cross ventilation, crossventilation, cross ventilation
it's called air exchange, airexchanges.
Yes, and that's what we say 24hours to 48 hours, depending on.
You know product and squarefootage is kind of what you're
(15:00):
looking at.
Dan (15:00):
Right and and during, by the way, and during, during and
during.
By the way, and during, during,during, not just like, oh, OK,
we shut it down.
Clock starts now.
We've been spraying for threedays straight.
Jeremiah (15:10):
Let's turn the fans on .
Let's turn the fans on nowDuring as well.
Guys, it's for your benefit andthe product and the application
.
Dan (15:18):
And it also that time doesn't start after your helper
has gone up there to help youbring all the hoses and stuff
down.
To help you bring all the hosesand stuff down, that guy should
be up there with respirators,everything else to help you.
You know, maybe after 24 hours,okay, but when you're done
spraying, the valve, shut off,the gun shut off, keep the ding
(15:42):
mask on while you're up there.
It is still stale.
Jeremiah (15:47):
Yeah, it is for sure, it's like I said, especially in
confined space.
It is for sure it's like I said, especially in confined space.
There's no, it's unvented bydesign.
So like you have to vent it,like you have to be the
mechanical part of that,invented yourself.
Like it's not a vented atticthat you're sealing, it's not a
retrofit that you know you'retaking, you're sealing off the
bird blocks, it's confined space.
Dan (16:05):
You, in essence, have to create that exchange yourself
and as insulators, as airsealers, the better job we do,
the worse we're making itourselves for air quality up
there until it's done andproperly vented out.
Jeremiah (16:20):
Well, again, we can.
You can also, like said in a, ina very loose term, you can look
at a retrofit as a confinedspace because, dan, you just
said it, you're creating yourown confined space.
Yes, and when we tell, whenwe're talking to guys about
retrofits, you know most guyswill go in, they'll go to the
far end, they'll sprayeverything gables, vents,
everything work their way out.
I was like no, like I know youdon't want to hear this, but you
(16:43):
need to leave the gables open.
Yes, you need to leave thingsopen where air can be pulled in,
pushed out during theapplication.
So I was like I know it's notthe most efficient way, but you
need to pick and know thatbefore you walk in, because you
are, you're creating your ownair barrier, you're sealing
yourself off.
So you're slowly creatingconfined space, especially in
retrofit that has one atticaccess, right, so then, that's
(17:05):
one of those ones.
It's a little different becausewhen you go into it, there's
venting, there's everything else, but, like you said, you are
closing yourself off andcreating confined space as you
actually do your job.
So, right, you got to also takethose kind of factors into play
when you're thinking aboutthese things and it's easy for
us to go right to air qualityand right to respiratory
protection right there.
Dan (17:25):
But there's other factors going in there and one of them
is access and a lot of what inthe spray foam industry we see
as confined space.
Entry is either crawling up anattic or down into a crawl space
through some opening.
I don't know how many timesI've gone and you know you see
(17:48):
somebody on a job site somewhere.
You stop and say hello and theyhave Baker scaffolding that
they're climbing up and downwith no wheel locks on.
You know the brakes aren't seton it.
The ladders that are in theworst condition possible.
You know I made somebody throwaway her favorite ladder the
(18:11):
other day and she was reallypissed at me about it.
Unsafe as well, and the jaggedpiece of metal sticking out of
the base was right at her ankle.
Oh, that'll do it.
Yeah, katie, sorry You've gotto get rid of that one.
I know you love it, but therewas some pouting on.
But so, again, the plan thatyou're making you need to plan
(18:35):
your entry and plan your exitand know a safe way to get in
and out.
Crawl spaces I don't deal withthem a lot.
A lot of our construction isslab on grade around here.
I don't deal with them a lot.
A lot of our construction isslab on grade around here.
Getting in and out of a crawlspace when you're six foot one
and 220 pounds is not idealsometimes.
(18:56):
No, in an 18 inch crawl space.
18 inch, yeah, on a good day uh.
So nail screws um, uh, like theconnector plates that are
always sticking up right there.
You know, I don't know how manytimes I crawl up there and put
(19:16):
my arm in there, tear the dangsleeve of my suit, yeah, and
that always pisses me off likethere's money out the door right
there.
I hadn't even sprayed anythingyet, that's's how it?
goes yeah.
So what have you seen?
Well, what have you seen thatscares you and what have you
seen that you'd like to see whenguys are getting in and out of
those really tight spaces as faras physical access goes?
Jeremiah (19:40):
As far as physical access goes, you know, like I
said, dan, it's doing, doing theright way.
You know, like you said, youdon't, don't have your access to
confined space.
Be the rickety ladder that whenyou come out after two hours of
spraying is gonna wiggle.
When you're kind of drained andneed some act, you know, need
some hydration.
You know little the littlestuff.
Like you said, take a second tothink like, okay, when I'm
(20:00):
tired and worn out what mighthappen?
Right, and that's what I tryand tell guys.
Not when you're 100, afteryou've been spraying for six
hours straight, what is possible?
Um, can I slip on the ladder?
It's a little rickety, you know, if it's wiggling because the
supports are, you know thingslike that is.
You know, is the air hosethat's connecting my mask?
Is it?
(20:20):
Should I have replaced itbefore I started because it's a
little wiggly?
It's been popping out.
You know it's that stuff, right?
Yeah, like it's all.
It's always the little thingsthat add up to the big things
and cause an issue for forapplicators so that's what I say
is you know, once again, wekeep.
I think we repeat ourselves.
You know, just take time andtake the steps and don't skip
any when you're doing thesesituations right, because
(20:42):
there's no corner to cut in theconfined space, like you don't
want to think about that, right?
You know, do it right.
Don't think how fast can I getin and out?
Okay, what's the right way todo it and the most efficient?
Dan (20:53):
so yeah, and so those of us in the spray foam world a lot
of times doing retrofits or evennew construction in some of
these confined spaces.
Other trades have been therealready.
We're usually the last one inbefore they seal.
That sucker up all the wayElectrical hazards, gas hazards,
(21:14):
what have you seen?
What do you like to do tomitigate some of those?
Jeremiah (21:19):
I haven't had many gas .
I mean we haven't had gashazards really, you know,
besides turning, you knowsomebody accidentally hitting
the valve that shuts off thefurnace.
You know what the heck you goup there.
More electrical, um, I have tosay, when you go in these space,
look what's the age of thehouse You're going to see some
knob and tube.
Dan (21:38):
That's in a box it doesn't have a plate.
Jeremiah (21:38):
for me it's.
It's always electrical.
It is because I just I see moreissues with electrical.
Like you know, renovations Isit a remodel, new construction?
No, thankfully, dan, once againthat's not one of the things
you have.
It's not even hooked up topower.
But I say, you know, if you'redoing big buildings and this and
stuff, you know electrical isthe kind of thing you want to
look out for when you'recrawling around.
Dan (22:09):
Because I myself, like I said I used to, not, you know
young, and you lean back, youtake a full volt, the wires are
exposed and things like that.
Yeah, we've got some pictures,but I was looking in an attic
last Saturday and I'm up therewalking around because it's one
of those where we're going tohave to vacuum it out.
There's a whopping like twoinches of old cellulose in the
roof of this thing.
I mean, it's cherry, it's mint,you know.
And walking around, you knowcrawling around, looking at
(22:29):
everything, just kind of puttingour plan together, and you know
Katie's there and she's lookingat it, and we look down and
literally there's a box thereand the wire nut holding two
wires together is sitting in thebottom of the J box.
I'm like, oh perfect, there'sno cover on it.
(22:51):
The wires are exposed, the youknow the copper bear, copper
ends are exposed.
But at least somebody put awire nut in the box to make it
easier for people Like put it on.
Yeah, they thought about it.
They didn't leave us anyelectrical tape though where we
could really put it on right.
That's probably why it poppedoff in the first place.
(23:11):
Ok, but we're not electricians.
We need to make that fulldisclosure.
We are not licensed electricalcontractors to tell you what's
proper?
No, but we feel the duct tapeis so box covers.
So, uh, box covers.
(23:32):
Uh, I don't know how many ofthese houses around here that
are built in the 60s or 70s.
They put metallic j boxes inthem, but they never put a cover
plate on.
Yes, so again, major risk rightthere, because you're going to
walk across, you're going todrag a hose across that or
something and you're alreadypulling plenty of voltage, you
know, wrapped around your hosekeeping the heat going.
So, hey, let's add to the fun.
(23:53):
Um, and as a guy that has had aelectrocution issue in the past
, I'm a little sensitive when itcomes to that.
Yeah, same here.
Um, so breakers can be turnedoff.
Jeremiah (24:05):
yeah, well, I was just going to say, like the simple
question is there going to bepower to the facility when I'm
there, like like, if you knowthat's an easy question to ask
when you go there, like, isthere power, is there electrical
, and is it charged where I'mgoing to be at?
So you know, you can always askthose simple questions to just
to know how to prepare a littlebit.
Dan (24:22):
Right.
Jeremiah (24:22):
But most of the time we walk into a situation where,
like you see it, and you're like, oh right, not like it was,
there's a forewarning right.
It's usually like, oh shoot,now I've got to deal with this
more than right.
Dan (24:32):
Wow, I'm glad I knew about this before I got here and yeah,
look at the instant I'm talkingabout.
We saw it before we ever, youknow, before we even ever put
the job on the schedule.
We saw it to bid it and quote.
And it doesn't happen a lotthat that is just happened to be
that one and we'll have to putthe pictures up.
I didn't think.
Jeremiah (24:53):
I did think one about gas tan.
Like you know, you want to lookfor the flexible lines.
Yeah, I've had guys kink in ajob not mine but kink the lines
like sit on them.
Like you said, the hose goesover it and sometimes they have
that flexible line coming fromthe main gas to the, to the unit
itself and that can kink it's.
You know it's plastic and metal, right, you know, good guys
(25:13):
stepping on it can compress itdown.
I guess safety wise in theconfined space and those you
know, look for those flexiblelines because you can kink and
that can cause a greater issueof course.
So that's kind of popped in myhead.
Dan (25:24):
Yes, so that's kind of popped in my head, yes, and if
you're in an attic and there isa furnace up there, make sure
you know the proper way to spraythat attic.
Yeah With that.
Jeremiah (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's gas and you know there's a lot of a
lot of back and forth on how toinsulate or if to insulate when
it's a gas, or you know the 80lower than 80 percent efficient
furnaces and things like that.
There's a lot of discussion,but that's a different podcast
altogether.
Dan (25:51):
Yeah, exactly that's a.
Please consult your techsupport team.
They will gladly help you withall of that stuff Gladly talk to
you about what to insulate andwhat not.
And if you don't have a goodtech support person, call us,
we'll hook you up with somebody,we'll find one.
We will find somebody to helpyou out with that.
Ductwork.
Duck work is jagged.
You know, somebody bendingputting pans together, putting
ducks together.
(26:12):
There's more sharp edges onduck work than anywhere else I
see in an attic anywhere.
That's true Corners of thosethings.
Like I said earlier, the platesthat they tie trusses together
with those scare the crap out ofme when my hoses are being
pulled through.
An god I, even on new builds, Isee those.
Jeremiah (26:33):
those just bother the hell out of me yeah, when you're
crawling around these spaces,that you have one way in, one
way out.
It's definitely important tounderstand, like, what can get
caught on stuff, because after,once again, if you've been in
there long enough and some it'sdifferent than if you just
started you know something getscaught.
You get kind of, you know,stuck in a corner or your hose
does like.
It's a different situation whenyou know your access is 50 feet
(26:54):
away, right, you know so andit's easy going in because your
helper's right behind you.
Dan (26:59):
You guys are just, you know , happiest could be.
Go lucky, we're gonna spraythis attic today or whatever,
and you know, two of you arewalking that hose.
I guess the other big thingthat I want to talk to about
confined space especially whenit comes to addicts, because
that's where it's reallyprevalent in the spray foam
industry is, in an emergency,the number one easiest place to
(27:20):
get that guy out is through thesheetrock.
Yes, I don't like to pay toreplace sheetrock.
I will gladly pay to replacesheetrock so that my people on
my crew come back tomorrow.
Jeremiah (27:37):
Yeah, it's, sheetrocks it.
It might be a long discussionwith what you know, the customer
, but it comes down to safetyand if you get in a situation
and I I've had I've told guysthat I think then you and I've
talked about that, yeah, itcomes to it go through.
Definitely I will not be mad ifyou were stuck and stressed and
had to go through for safetylike I'm.
So it's a conversation I'mwilling to have with a customer
(28:00):
and explain what happened, fixit and move on, because I have
not met one customer that hasn'tunderstood when it's that
situation.
You know.
Of course there's the oneswhere they're like what, how'd
that?
happen, but in those situationsI've never had a customer be
like oh my gosh what the heck?
Yes, it's always, are they okay?
Thanks for telling me.
I'm glad everything worked out.
Thanks for fixing it and youmove on right.
Dan (28:19):
Exactly.
Do not be afraid to do it if itgets to.
Don't put a second guy in a badspace trying to save the first
guy.
Yeah, just go through thesheetrock.
Jeremiah (28:33):
Yeah, do what you have to do.
You know if, if something'sgoing wrong and he's in there
and you go in, yeah what?
If, like you said, you both getcaught Right.
Dan (28:43):
Exactly.
And and is there a third guy tosave you at that point?
Yeah, is there guy to save youat that point?
Yeah, is there?
Is there?
Isn't?
If there isn't, yeah, no, don'tbe afraid to do it.
And every spray foam employee,spray foam arizona employee
that's listening to this today,I'm reiterating it to you guys.
You know it's that big a dealto us that do not be afraid to
(29:04):
do that.
And all right.
So call to action on confinedspaces.
Know your ventilation, planyour ventilation engineering
controls.
Jeremiah (29:19):
Everything is planned before you go into that space,
like there shouldn't besomething you show up to the job
in oh shoot, we need this, no,these.
In these situations, everythingshould be there.
You should be prepared beforeyou go in.
Dan (29:31):
Right, and guys that are doing this on a regular basis.
I mean, there's guys who dothis every single day.
Their whole business isremovals and reinstalls and
retrofits.
You guys know what's up, butstill think ahead far enough to
plan, be diligent about it.
So that's our call to action.
(29:53):
Confined spaces, now listenerquestions.
We've had a few come in, someof them better than others, so I
do not have an OnlyFans page.
Thank you for asking, though.
Oh man, one of them was hobbies.
(30:16):
What do you do outside of theworld of spray foam and outside
the world of this podcast?
Are you asking me to?
That's what somebody else isasking.
Jeremiah (30:25):
Okay, um.
Well, I have three um kids thatwe that live with me and one
that doesn't, so that you knowwhen I'm not, you know, working
I'm spending time with them.
You know they do soccer dramakarate Keeps me pretty busy For
myself, you know.
Besides, that you knowselfishly I, you know I ride
(30:46):
motorcycles.
I ride BMX.
I've gotten recently back intoracing.
God help me.
Dan (30:51):
Nice, we'll see how that goes.
You need somebody to buy you agood helmet.
I got a good helmet.
Jeremiah (30:57):
It's a good, good helmet.
Right, it's a good, good helmet.
Okay, All right, good.
I do fish and hunt when we dohave time to do it.
That's also very enjoyable.
Dan (31:11):
Yeah, very enjoyable.
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, whatabout yourself?
Well, again, similar scenariothree kids at home.
One of them just lives up thestreet, uh, and a lot of time
with him.
We've got kids in band, uh,we've got, yeah, uh, two of the
two of the boys are competitiveshotgun shooters.
So we spend a lot of time atthe shooting range breaking,
breaking clays hopefully,breaking clays, hopefully,
(31:31):
hopefully breaking clays.
The averages are better for usthese days.
That's good From well.
We're always working onsomething.
I've got my oldest son just gotdone putting a six OLS swap in
a little single cab, littleshort bed truck.
Nice, souped it up, you know,new cams, everything else.
(31:52):
It's pumping like you know six,seven hundred horsepower out of
some little tiny truck.
Jeremiah (31:56):
So that's nice.
Dan (31:57):
Yeah, those are fun for myself.
I've been a licensed pilot for20 something years.
I really enjoy the world ofaviation.
Like I said, that's been alifelong passion, uh, something
my dad and I'd always donetogether, so it's kind of a
family thing.
That's been awesome and fun.
Uh, it's a great way for me tojust get away from the world.
(32:19):
I've always thought about ittoo.
That definitely, yeah, haspotential.
It's peaceful.
I bet there's days it is sopeaceful and quiet.
Four thousand five you knowfour or five thousand feet up.
The world is just looksdifferent up there, and
Kristen's always made thecomment like you go fly, you're
different when you come home,and so aviation is a big hobby.
(32:41):
I can always gather up anotherhobby, it seems like, and so
there's always been.
You know the ones here andthere.
But again, the kids're.
They're banned, they're shotgun, shooting, uh, 4-h activities.
Kids have show pigs right now,and flying.
That's the big ones that cantake up our money fast.
They can.
Time sorry, time is what I mean, not money time their hobbies
(33:04):
just get more expensive as theyget old?
they do.
Yes, they sure seem to Allright.
So, everybody, episode six,confined Spaces.
We've got quite a few morecoming up.
We're looking at electricalhazards.
We're going to get Carlos, anelectrician, that's going to
come in and talk to us.
We've got some mental healthstuff coming up.
Jeremiah (33:24):
More stuff on OSHA and safety and PPE coming up from
some guys from the industry.
Dan (33:29):
Yeah some awesome guests coming in on PPE, some really
cool stuff coming in on thatstuff.
So again, like and subscribe.
Spray Foam Mafia is theFacebook page.
Follow us, subscribe whateveryou can on all of your favorite
podcast platforms and we willsee you next week.
Thanks a lot, guys.
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