Send us your Questions for Jeremiah and Dan
Ever wondered how intumescent coatings play a pivotal role in fire protection? Join us as we sit down with Nick McCartney from International Fireproof Technology to uncover the secrets behind these life-saving products. From his entrance into the industry to the crucial importance of DC 315 and DC 360, Nick offers an in-depth look at how these coatings ensure safe egress during fires. He shares valuable insights into the technical aspects and safety measures necessary for proper application, while highlighting the ease of use and eco-friendly nature of these coatings. Plus, get an exclusive preview of an upcoming steel intumescent coating set to revolutionize fire safety standards.
Get ready to elevate your application techniques with our essential tips for preparing and applying intumescent coatings. Discover how proper material handling, including heating and mechanical mixing, can help you achieve the perfect viscosity. Find out why mixing coatings for a solid 10 to 15 minutes is crucial and learn how to tackle common issues like clogging. We'll also discuss recent improvements in the viscosity of DC 315, making it easier to apply, and provide clear guidelines on how to thin the product with water effectively without compromising its performance.
Fire protection isn't just about meeting codes; it's about saving lives. This episode underscores the critical role of intumescent coatings in the spray foam industry, emphasizing the need for proper application techniques and rigorous testing. We also talk about the importance of education and SPFA certifications in promoting best practices. Hear real-world scenarios where non-compliance led to costly repercussions and learn how building strong relationships with inspectors and staying informed can set you apart in the industry.
Additional Information and Trainings from International Fireproof Technology
- Link to International Fireproof Technology Inc. (painttoprotect.com) online training
- Applicators are required to complete a job work report to certify the installation, completed job reports can be submitted to workrecords@painttoprotect.com and a job site label shall be completed by the applicator and attached to a prominent location on the job site, such as the electrical panel. https://painttoprotect.com/intumescent-coating-installation-job-work-record/
- USA DC315 Website information to all of our help documents, application guide, evaluation reports all relevant information pertaining to DC315.
Code Approved 15 Minute Thermal Barriers & Ignition Barriers for Spray Foam Insulation (painttoprotect.com)
For comments, suggestions, safety shares and questions email us at sprayfoammafia@gmail.com
or find us on Facebook Spray Foam Mafia
We want to hear from you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan (00:00):
Okay, welcome back to another episode of Toolbox Talks
on Safety for the Spray FoamIndustry.
I'm Dan Benedict with SprayFoam Arizona, and over there
waving at somebody is JeremiahSchoenberg from UPC.
Nick (00:14):
Nick, go ahead and introduce yourself here, and
you've got Nick McCartney herewith International Fireproof
Technology DC315.
Dan (00:22):
All right Product that all of us in the industry have
probably heard before.
Nick, give us a littlebackground history on yourself
and how you got into theindustry.
Nick (00:30):
So I've been in the construction industry for the
last 20 years.
I've had my own distributionbusiness tailoring to
multifamily apartment complexesand I actually got the
opportunity to sell off mycompany and come over and take
this position here withInternational Fireproof
Technology and I wanted topursue that for the aspect of
(00:52):
fire protection and life safetyand implementing safety
parameters.
I didn't really know what I wasgetting myself into when I took
the position Right.
I kind of thought I was goingto be set up more so as a
firefighter, but now I'm in itand like.
Dan (01:09):
nobody invited you to be in a calendar with your shirt off
yet, or anything, not yet butI've gotten some requests on
Facebook.
I'd be leery, I'd be a littleleery I'll kind of.
Nick (01:20):
I think some of them were Jeremiah.
Jeremiah (01:22):
I was going to say man , I'm pretty sure it was Dan.
Nick (01:25):
I think some of them are Jeremiah.
I was going to say man, I'mpretty sure it was Dan.
So I've been with InternationalFireproof for the last six
years now, came on board as anational accounts manager now,
and now I've moved into the vicepresident of sales and
marketing.
Cool Congratulations.
Dan (01:40):
Thank you.
Nick (01:41):
So pretty much what we do is we try to protect spray foam
from fire to meet any of thecode requirements and code
regulations out there that needto be addressed when using spray
foam on the interior side of abuilding.
Perfect.
Dan (01:56):
Awesome and so, like most of us in the industry, have seen
the name DC 315.
Probably a lot of us have usedit.
I know there's competitivebrands out there and we're sure
not promoting one over the otherand Nick's like, yeah, we are,
but but uh, so, uh, I mean, justgive us the background.
You DC 315, what other productsyou guys have?
(02:17):
What are you doing?
I know it's all based on firesafety and, uh, basically
getting occupants safely out ofan occupied space.
If, on the rare chance that afire happens.
Nick (02:30):
Exactly that.
So our forte is passive fireprotection, so to allow enough
time for people to egress out ofthe building if there is ever
worst case scenario of fire.
We primarily focus onintumescent coatings.
We obviously, everybody knowsDC 315.
That's our product for spraypolyurethane foam.
We do have another productcalled DC 360, and that product
(02:52):
is used for wood and gypsumapplications to increase the
fire resistance rating of thosetype of substrates.
If you need to use fire ratedwood on an application and fire
rated wood was not installed,you can use a product like DC
360 to rate that wood to meetthe same requirements.
Dan (03:12):
And you're saying 360, not 315 or 316?
360.
Jeremiah (03:16):
I didn't know if it was just like going in
sequential order.
Dan (03:19):
I'm like I'm coming out with 317.
I'm taking the market.
Nick (03:25):
No, we just keep adding numbers to our products as we
develop them right um, and wehave been working on a steel
intumescent coating, so we planto launch that within the next
year or so.
Jeremiah (03:32):
Oh, very cool yeah all right, and that's, uh, that.
Would that still be a passive,or would that be more?
Nick (03:37):
that would be considered more fireproof.
Okay, for steel beams and caps,exactly yeah, it's still going
to be a water-based uh low vocproduct, just like the dc315
nice.
Jeremiah (03:47):
So ease of application is what we try to focus on and
the odor from those other onestoo is definitely high, so low
voc is definitely a good thingyeah.
Dan (03:57):
So those of us that are out there that you know spray and
foam, we all run into needingthe intimesic coatings on it.
Heck it.
It's written in the codes, Ithink in a lot of places.
And there's always the argumentwith code officials back and
forth on it.
But being that we're focused onsafety and, like applicator
safety, what safety precautionsdo we need our applicators to be
(04:22):
taking when they grab DC-315?
And how do you want them tohandle that product at the same
time?
Nick (04:28):
For the most part.
As far as safety goes,obviously you're going to want
to wear all of your PPE yourstandard proper protective
equipment when you're installingany coating.
The good thing with our productand most of the intumescent
coatings out there availablethey're low VOC, water-based
products, so they'renon-hazardous, no harmful VOCs.
But you still need to make surethat you're wearing your masks,
(04:51):
you're wearing your Tyvek suits, you're wearing your gloves,
that you're making sure yourcrews are addressing all those
parameters as well, so you canbe the professional on the job
site when you're're applying thecoding you know we do.
For instance, for dc315, we dohave a food contact approval.
So kid you can technically eatif you want to.
I've tried it.
Dan (05:12):
I wouldn't recommend it so you don't season your steaks
with it or anything no, well, Ican tell you, solid dressing
don't shit fire anymore.
Nick (05:18):
yeah so, but as far as safety, it it's a pretty
straightforward application.
That's why we developed theproduct as a single component to
try to make the application aseasy as possible.
Yeah, so, as far as equipmentto apply it, standard airless
(05:39):
sprayer, you know, I would saythe minimum sprayer requirements
is a 695 or a pump that hasthree quarters of a gallon per
minute output at about 3000 PSI.
Ok, I've done demonstrationswhere I've sprayed out of a
Titan 440.
Ok, so if you're in a pinch,you don't have access to a 695
and you've got a project, youknow, 2000 square feet, you
could spray it with 440.
Just make sure you're followingthe temps on our application
(06:03):
guide.
You know the optimal materialtemps would be anywhere from 65
to 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
Jeremiah (06:12):
It mixes up really nice and it helps the
sprayability.
Make sure you're on a smallercoverage, like you said, 2,000
square feet.
If they're using that smallerrig, would you say like they
shouldn't, you wouldn'trecommend it on larger square
footage, right?
Nick (06:21):
Not at all, the main reason being the pumps that size
are not set up to spray thattype of output with that type of
viscosity over time.
Okay, so it'll burn the pump up?
Yeah, but if you're in a pinchyou can spray it.
You know, if you're spraying 2000 square feet, it shouldn't
take you more than a couplehours.
So you're not going to heat upthat pump and burn down but
anything larger like yeah, andespecially if you're getting
(06:42):
into the business of applying itall the time.
I'd go bigger with the pump youshould be investing exactly.
They could do the productionyeah, you get a 1095 or
something larger.
You could put two sprayers onit.
And if you're spraying largeprojects you know 100 000 square
feet, 50 000 square feet youget two sprayers on it.
You're killing out that projectin half the time, and that's
time is money.
Yeah so the more efficient,that you can be on your projects
(07:06):
.
I look at it, that's more moneyin your pocket.
Jeremiah (07:08):
So the reason I recommend hydraulic machines for
anyone that asks like, hey,yeah, it's more expensive, but
yeah, what are you doing for aliving?
Yeah, so, uh, yeah, yeah, spendthe extra, but yeah, if you're
gonna be doing it for a whileyeah, we have an 833 that we
already use for acrylic coatingsand our roofing side of things.
Dan (07:26):
So we end up, just, you know, clear it out with clean
water and switch over when we'respraying.
You know large metal buildingsand stuff with that deal and it
works pretty well.
But we go back to the problem Ihear from all contractors on
any of these intumescentcoatings is they plug up tips,
like they always plug up tips?
Nick (07:51):
So they plug up tips, like they always plug up tips.
So talk us through preventingthat and keeping the uptime on
those sprayers going.
You know when they're applyingyour stuff.
So, like I was saying, one ofthe most important facts factors
that are usually overlooked ismaterial temps Intumescent
coating material temp.
In 65 to 80 degrees Fahrenheittemp, that mixability and the
sprayability coming out fromthat material will be 10 times
better than you trying to mix upa pail that's at 40, 50 degrees
(08:14):
.
Okay, a big thing that's missedtoo is guys in the colder
climates they'll take the pailsout and they'll set them in
their shop on the cold concreteground.
When they do that, that pailfrom the bottom up is now
thickening up because it'strying to freeze from the bottom
Right.
A lot of guys don't understandthat or don't really think about
that.
Jeremiah (08:33):
Yeah.
Nick (08:33):
So they go to put their mixer in the pail, they go to
mix it up and the bucket startsspinning on them.
They're like, oh, the materialis not good.
Jeremiah (08:39):
I know I have guys that will take off, unload a
whole truckload and take it offthe pallets I get over there.
It's like I'm now going to askyou to re put it on all the
pallets, take our stuff off theconcrete floor because, yeah,
you did all that work fornothing.
Nick (08:51):
Yeah, and it's.
I try to resemble the foam.
It's no different than foam,like the HFO, if you start
taking drums and setting out onthe concrete floor it's going to
address it.
So I try to tell contractorsthe best thing you can do is,
when you kick your heater on tostart warming up your barrels,
throw your coating in there withit.
Dan (09:09):
Have it heat up with your phone.
Jeremiah (09:11):
Yeah.
Nick (09:11):
And then when you get to the project, by that time you
can start mixing it.
You'll notice the viscosity,how much looser it is in a
difference of 20 degrees.
Okay, it loosens up that much,Regardless mixing degrees.
Okay, no, it loosens up thatmuch, um, regardless mixing it's
not me, oh it's me.
Dan (09:34):
He who cast the first stone should not live in a glass
house.
Who passed the clicker?
Nick (09:39):
clickered at me, so mixing regardless, okay, back on task
yeah, mixing regardless.
You want to mix any intumescentcoating material for at least
10 to 15 minutes?
Um, you can shake it.
That helps.
The material still needs to bemixed, right?
Um?
Reason being there are solidcontent in the material that
needs to be mixed thoroughlythroughout the entire contents
(10:02):
of the pail.
So don't pick it up shake itand think it's mixed.
Dan (10:05):
Put it down right, yeah, so I got a bad tire on a trailer
right now.
If I just carry them in thattrailer, that's mixing it pretty
well, oh yeah that's, that'sfine.
Nick (10:15):
So, and and those issues are are issues that need, that
are need to be addressed to notclog your sprayer.
You know, the better that youhave the mixed material, the
easier it's going to flowthrough your sprayer.
Jeremiah (10:27):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure, dan, the guys that talk about
clogging and stuff don't don'tdo those, those things to stop
it.
You know, like a lot of mixingand things like that are mixing
too little.
Or you've got a very highviscosity of material and you're
just like, oh, think it's goingto work with you, follow the
same parameters in normaloperating temperatures and once
again just like foam when you'reoutside normal parameters you'd
probably pay attention or makea phone call if you don't know,
(10:49):
because it changes.
Nick (10:51):
It does.
How you deal with it right, itdoes.
One of the best calls I've gotwas recently, probably a couple
of weeks ago.
A guy was mixing with a two byfour Nice, all right and he's
like it's just not mixing up andI'm like how are you mixing?
It's like churning butter andbutter.
Jeremiah (11:04):
I'd like to say that I've never walked into that.
Yes, I have, they think, justbecause it's a larger drum.
I think, maybe, maybe, maybe,but I think I was like no man.
Nick (11:14):
It just doesn't mix it properly and you're going to be
fighting it trying to go throughyour sprayer the whole time.
It needs to be mechanicallymixed and it helps out
tremendously.
And in from a difference of twominutes, when you start to mix,
you'll notice the viscosityloosened up significantly and
recently within the last year itwas actually a beginning of
(11:35):
this year we've slightly reducedthe viscosity of the DC-315
because we're not looking tohang as many mils as we used to.
We used to look to hang 20 to 24mils in a single coat.
Now all of our applicationrates are anywhere from 14 to 18
wet mils, so the viscositydoesn't need to be as thick to
hang that many mils in a singlecoat.
Yeah, now all of ourapplication rates are anywhere
from 14 to 18 wet mils, so theviscosity doesn't need to be as
thick to hang that many mils.
So we've slightly reduced it.
So anybody that's been sprayingit for the last year, you
(11:56):
should notice a prettysubstantial difference in
comparison to what it used to beokay um, I you always hear the
guys that have their magicrecipes.
Dan (12:05):
I put, you know, a bottle of water in every bucket or
something like that.
Can you thin your product down,should you not?
I mean, give us the breakdownon what's really legally and
actually right with what you'vegot provided out there?
Nick (12:22):
so I do not recommend adding any water to it.
Um, you should mechanically mixit for at least 10 to 15
minutes.
Make sure you check yourmaterial temps.
They're in that 65 to 80 degreeFahrenheit range.
Mix it up really well.
If it still does not reduce theviscosity to get it to an
optimal sprayability, you canadd a little bit of water.
And when I say a little bit ofwater I'm talking 250
(12:45):
milliliters of water.
So about the first inch of astandard water bottle.
Start there.
Mix that completely up foranother five to 10 minutes,
because when you pour water intothe coating you'll notice the
water just tries to sit on top.
Yeah, so you have to thoroughlymix it back in.
If you don't thoroughly mix itback in, it's not going to do
anything to adjust the viscosity.
(13:06):
I've heard guys adding fullwater bottles in.
If you add too much water, youpretty much just you didn't
destroy the coating, but you'regoing to have runs coming down
your foam wall or ceiling.
It's because it's going to comedripping and at that point it's
going to cost you a lot moretime and effort to go back and
try to remedy that issue thanslowly adding the water into it.
(13:29):
Okay, so it may take a littlebit more time to mix, but it's
better for you in the long runto where you're not just just
pulling your hair out watchingall this coding that you just
paid for run down the wallsexactly jeremiah.
Dan (13:45):
No, I was like I'm, I'm like, uh, did you know?
I'm like he's gonna saysomething I'm trying to let you
finish.
Jeremiah (13:50):
But I'm also like picturing jobs that I've walked
in on that and like, like man, Iknow exactly what you did.
It's like what do you mean?
I was like dude.
I see it dripping down the wall.
Yeah, come on, man, what'd youdo?
Dan (14:03):
or the, the.
That's why I was laughing.
It wasn't what.
Yeah, they did a bunch ofoverhead and there's the, the
gray flake rain shower all overthe concrete.
Jeremiah (14:11):
We're close, so it looks like stalactites and
they're like I don't know, whatthe problem is.
What happened, man, three poundfoam.
I'm like I'm pretty sure I knowwhat's going on here I added a
gallon of water to it.
Nick (14:21):
What's going on?
Jeremiah (14:22):
I sprayed it, it was like 100 degrees.
Dan (14:24):
It's cool, it's, you know, winter right yeah, and you bring
up the 100 degrees.
We've been talking about thisunderneath the specified temp.
What happens if we get above 85?
Because I'm an arizona ratabove 85.
Nick (14:37):
I mean you can definitely spray an above 85 degrees
fahrenheit.
The biggest thing that you'regoing to want to look for and
address is the humidity.
You definitely do not want tospray at 85 percent relative
humidity yes, viva arizona yeah,you want to keep that humidity
range around solid 50 60 percentum is dc 315.
(14:59):
Any intumescent coating forspray foam is water-based, so as
soon as you start spraying ityou're going to elevate the
humidity because the productcures by evaporation.
I've felt that Yep, and it canincrease by 20%.
Easy, easy.
And that's the importance ofhaving fans and having adequate
ventilation.
Another question that I getquite often on when guys have
(15:19):
sprayed foam one day and theyplan to go back out the
following day and they want tostart off first thing in the
morning and coat Check your dewpoint Just like foam.
Yeah, you know, if you've gotcondensation on the foam, you
start spraying to it.
Dan (15:33):
Yeah.
Nick (15:33):
You're going to have issues with the coating adhering
to the foam.
So just check it.
You know, if you've got to waitan additional hour, that
additional hour can save yourass on the coating not failing
Right.
So you know, I wouldn'trecommend having your guys go
through wipe it down with rags.
I mean you could, if you wantjust you know, go grab some
breakfast or prep, prep some ofthe other portions of the job,
you know, um, but make sure tocheck those things.
(15:54):
It's, it's definitely thingsthat can either make you or
break you on the project towhere you're profitable or not.
Yeah, and we're not in this todo this stuff for free, and
that's that's why all of us arehere as manufacturers, trying to
work together to provide thecorrect information, to educate
the industry, so everybody'ssuccessful and they continue to
grow in the business.
Dan (16:14):
And Jeremiah, you can comment on this also.
But there's times that those ofus that you know our main
business is spray foam and we'llgo through a month and never be
on a job that requiressomething like an intumescent
coating month and never be on ajob that requires something like
an intumescent coating.
So guys will get in thementality of, oh, that's
secondary to the spray foam,like we're a spray foam company,
(16:35):
we're not an intumescentcoating company.
Yeah, but one of the thingsthat nick keeps bringing back
around to us is it's a lot ofthe same things timing, dew
points, temperatures, uh, youknow, yeah, processing
guidelines, everything.
So we need to quit thinkingabout something that is out
there to save lives more thananything else.
(16:57):
You know, spray foams out thereto make make us comfortable.
Yeah, this is out there to savelives.
So, putting proper thought intothe application of it, it's not
like, okay, that helper overthere is the lowest guy in the
totem pole, we're just going togo ahead and have him start
spraying this coating.
Nick (17:14):
And you're kind of like, okay, it's coming out of the gun
, we're going to spray it one ofthe biggest things that I like
to tell people is it's not justa paint, it's an intimate, it's
a coating, it's a fireprotective coating.
So if you can kind of think ofit like that, it's not just a
run-of-the-mill paint it.
We invest countless hours andmillions of dollars into fire
(17:36):
testing our product, but makesure it works, because you
thought that was good oh yeah,you know, I'm just 14 mils run
it it'll dark pass.
Jeremiah (17:44):
No, send it yeah dartboard.
Nick (17:47):
You and everyone at dc, just, let's just guess about it,
yeah good and you guys know,with the foam manufacturers,
there's tremendous amount ofwork that goes on behind the
scenes to make sure our productsare approved for use and safe
to use out in you know, theresidential or commercial
environment, right?
Um, so it's.
I liked it and I try toseparate those two things.
It's not just a paint, it's afire protective coat.
Dan (18:09):
Yeah, it's not a paint.
Yeah, it does not say paintanywhere on any of the barrels
at all.
Nick (18:14):
No, and well, you guys saw the burn demonstration earlier.
I mean, tell me, have you everseen a regular paint perform
like that?
No not at all.
I mean just to alleviate thesmoke and create that
intumescent char barrier andluckily, we took videos, yeah,
so we're going to have videos.
Dan (18:29):
We're going to be able to put up on all of our social
media pages and stuff so youguys can see what we're talking
about in this demonstration.
Nick (18:35):
And a little disclaimer I do not recommend anybody going
out there and burning foamanywhere at all.
Jeremiah (18:41):
Oh, and in the fine print.
Dan (18:43):
Also, when somebody hands you respiratory protection, go
ahead and flip the mask down.
Jeremiah (18:47):
Yeah, flip the mask, that does work better when it's
on your face it does.
Yeah, You're right.
No, I was going to say too,like if I'm going to a job and
I'm inspecting an assembly, I'minspecting your guys' product as
well.
The second it's on there.
It's a different story.
It's not just foam, it's notjust what insulation Like.
It's not just foam, it's notjust what insulation.
Like you said, we're there tomake people more comfortable,
(19:08):
but the thing you put anintimacy coating on, it becomes
an assembly, that is, isinspected for a reason.
Like there's a reason when I goout and I take a sample and I
do a mill check with my coollittle fricking sight glass and
everything else is becausethat's there for, like you said,
egress of the home in a worstcase scenario.
So it's like it's like it's nolonger just soundproofing, it's
no longer to make the energybill lower so you save a little
(19:29):
coin at the end of the month,it's to make sure your family
gets out.
So then it becomes, like I said, it's not a paint, it is a
serious protection to the phoneso you can get out of that
building.
And, like I said, I take it adifferent way when you're
talking about it and then when aguy says I want my phone blue
so I'm going to paint it blue, Iwas like no, you're not.
It's like can they just tint it?
It's like no.
Nick (19:50):
And you can.
You can make it blue, you canmake it pink, you can make it
purple, but you got to put thefire protective coating over it
first, you know.
Then you can top coat it.
So you do, and we've tried togo through it to make sure
everybody has options availableto fit their individual needs.
But at needs, but at the end ofthe day it's designed to be
(20:11):
there to protect from fire, andwe all know.
And one thing I do want toaddress because I see it come up
all too often on social mediaappendix x foam does not mean 15
minute thermal barrier.
Appendix x foam means ignitionbarriers.
So you do not have to use acoating on appendix X foam if
you're using it in attics orcrawl spaces.
(20:31):
If you're using Appendix X foamin a wall on the interior side
of a building where there'speople, you still have to apply
a 15-minute thermal barrier.
Yeah, I see all too often wherecontractors oh, it's 15-minute
rated foam, it's Appendix X,right?
I'm like what are you talking?
Jeremiah (20:47):
about.
That's not how it works.
It doesn't work.
That's not the testing.
Yeah, I wish, but no, like yousaid, it's an assembly that goes
together to maintain safety inthe building, right, and you try
like you brought it up a coupletimes today when in our
presentation too, about apex andeverything else just to relay,
hey, guys like, guys like oh, Iput it up.
I always tell guys we talkedabout the uh, you know, vertical
access and horizontal access.
(21:08):
I try and tell guys, like a lot, you know, if you have the
vertical access door, likepretty much you guarantee you
walk up, like I think you weresaying before, there's going to
be plywood down, there's goingto be boxes, yeah, you're going
to guarantee storage, right.
So it's important for guys tounderstand like you can't just
spray it wherever you want andbe like we're good yeah,
wherever you want and be likewe're good with the Apex stuff
(21:28):
and honestly, at the end of theday, it's not my decision or
your decision or the homeowner'sdecision.
Nick (21:34):
If you have an inspector or the third, you have a
jurisdiction.
It's their decision.
So if they feel that it's easyaccess and that people could
store items up there, they mayrequire you.
It's out of our hands, you know.
We could just try to providethe information to them and
maybe the homeowner can makethem feel more comfortable that
they're going to never put theitems up there.
Dan (21:53):
And but it's not up to us at all, yeah, and, at the end of
the day, it's not somethingthat's worth cheating.
I mean it's it's yeah, my kidslive in my house.
If something would happen, I'dwant my kids to be able to get
out of my house without anybodily bodily harm or, you know,
smoke inhalation injury,anything like that.
(22:15):
It's, it's there.
Jeremiah (22:16):
You still lose jobs because you bid with the coding.
You're like I'm not.
Oh, is that an option?
No, no, no, I separated.
So you understood what the costwas was because I know my
competition is going to give youthis cost with no coding right.
But if you don't use us becauseand you try and subtract, it's
not an option that you cansubtract, it's an option to
understand the cost, yes, well,go, we just take it out.
I was like no, if you're goingto take it out and go with
(22:38):
option b, that's fine, but wewill not do this job because,
once again, I require, requirethis in our company.
So therefore, sorry, and, likeI said, I tell guys, if you lose
those jobs, you probably wantto.
Yeah, exactly.
Nick (22:51):
And that's what I try to educate on all the time.
So when you have a contractorthat's going in to install spray
foam, they're supposed to bethe licensed contractor or
professional that's followingall parameters of that spray
foam installation jobprofessional that's following
all parameters of that sprayfoam installation job.
So you can't go into a houseand have a homeowner sign off on
the fact that they can omit acode requirement because you had
(23:13):
them sign a document.
If there's ever a fire in thathouse, they're going to come
back to who installed the sprayfoam and they're going to ask
these questions on what fireprotection did you provide and
did you provide all parametersof the code?
And if you say, oh, I had thehomeowner sign off saying that
they were going to apply it, doyou think that's going to hold
any weight in court?
Hell no.
Dan (23:34):
And it's not just the homeowner now, it's when that
house changes hands in thefuture which is common.
What they say the averagehomeownership right now is like
five years before people aremoving.
And what they say the averagehomeownership right now is like
five years before people aremoving.
Nick (23:52):
Yeah, you're just sucking that liability up, even though
that guy gave you a little barnapkin that says you know, jim
Bob ain't liable and that's it.
Dan (23:55):
I hear that a lot.
Nick (23:55):
We're on the sticks we don't have inspectors and
exactly.
Dan (23:59):
Oh, we're not inspected out here, it doesn't matter.
Nick (24:04):
And it's funny because a guy last week.
Dan (24:05):
He's refinancing his house.
Oh God, and.
Nick (24:06):
Inspector came out, yep, they caught him with no coding.
They're making him have thecontractor come back and out and
apply the coding, right youknow.
And so in another job I justgot from last week 25,000 square
foot open they believe it's afood storage facility.
They applied dry fall paint.
Inspector came out, he's makingthem.
I I don't think they've decided, but they said they were going
(24:28):
to make them rip the foam andcoating off and reapply the
whole thing.
Oh geez, so I don't believe.
You know, nine times out of ten, if it's a recent job where
they catch that, they're goingto go after the contractor.
That definitely so.
I don't know exactly what'sgoing on now, but there is no
intumescent coatings as a fireprotective coating for spray
foam that can be applied overdry fall or over another paint.
(24:50):
It has to go directly to thespray foam because that's the
way we test in the laboratory.
Now we've also tested with topcoats to go over the fire
coating and we've we've met thatfire testing and it's listed on
all of our documentation.
We've met that fire testing andit's listed on all of our
documentation.
Yeah, so in going intodocumentation the documentation
that us, as manufacturers,provide to you it's all done
(25:15):
from testing and it's all donefrom research, and the main
component of all thatinformation is to try and reduce
liability for you as thecontractor out there in the
field.
So that's why there's all theseparameters that we try to
enforce and have you abide by.
It's to help you.
So if there's any technicalitiesor legalities that come after
(25:37):
something that you've done, youhave thorough documentation to
provide a resolution for it.
Right, you know?
And I recommend you know topcoats.
If there's a protective topcoat needed if you're trying to
have a homeowner omit thethermal barrier, yeah, copy our
literature, put it on your bidsubmittal package and submit
that to the homeowner.
Right, you know?
(25:58):
And if you educate thehomeowner or the general
contractor on these items andyou're bidding against guys that
are not educating, they'regoing to start questioning why
these other bids are so cheapand why these other guys are not
informing them about the safetyparameters of it.
So it's so important if you caneducate and represent yourself
(26:20):
as the professional out theretrying to do it right, even
though you're the most expensivebid, you will probably get the
job nine times out of 10 becauseit raises the question To your
point.
Dan (26:31):
Exactly Yesterday I was doing specific fire blocking in
a barn dominium.
We have one county here inArizona that's extremely
particular about the way fireblocking is done in barn
dominiums, and so I worked withan architect in that county to
draw up a specific drawing ofhow to do it and it's submitted
(26:52):
in plans of my foam customers inthere and I bet I own 90% of
the spray foam market in thatcounty, in barn dominiums.
Because of that one piece ofpaper in dominiums, because of
that one piece of paper and Ican charge in the thousands of
dollars to do that fire block,even though I mean it takes me a
full day.
I got to drag two pieces ofequipment out.
(27:13):
I mean it's costly to do it,it's not like I'm just gouging
on it, but because of thateverybody tells me you're higher
than everybody else.
I say OK, I know, but let'sbreak it down of why I'm higher.
And then every one of thoseguys goes oh, nobody told me
that One guy that didn't listento us spent about an extra seven
(27:37):
thousand dollars stripping allof the foam out of his building
because the county said no, thisis not safe, it's not done
right.
It's not fire blocked Right andit just goes back to the same
point you're making is sometimesbeing right is hard, but it
sure can pay off Exactly that.
Nick (27:56):
You know we're all here trying to help everybody grow
and be successful and make money.
You know, if you don't followthese parameters, just like you
said, that costs that contractorthat much money to cover the
homeowner to come back and ripit out and then reinstall the
whole project and it's just awaste of time and money.
Dan (28:12):
Yeah, yeah, and a bad light on the entire industry.
Yeah, and if an inspector?
Nick (28:18):
came out there.
Now you're red flagged withthat inspector.
Jeremiah (28:21):
Yes, oh you don't want an inspector to know your name
personally.
Luckily in this county.
Dan (28:29):
In this particular county, the inspectors have seen us do
this fire block stuff enoughtime on the barn dominiums and
the icf houses that my peopledrop our name.
You know the clients drop ourname like, okay, we know we're
going for this inspection, weknow we're going to fail it
because the fire blocks them.
Then but here's you know dan'spaperwork and they go, oh, okay,
cool, we'll pick it up on therough-in inspection, yeah, and
(28:50):
they just let it fly, basicallybecause they know it's going to
be done right and we guard thatreputation, yeah, like fort knox
once you get it.
Nick (29:00):
You do not want to lose it , because it can change like
that.
It sure can, yeah, you know,and it can change by a bad team
member or an employee, right?
So that's the importance of usdoing these events and promoting
the education and allparameters in what we do Exactly
All right.
Dan (29:17):
So, Nick, every one of these, we we kind of get to this
point in the podcast where wetry to present a call to action,
Like the contractors that areout there spraying intumescent
coatings.
What call to action would youwant to see?
What's the biggest thing you'dlike to see changed by all of
these people that are doing it?
Nick (29:35):
Do not hesitate to call us or anybody and ask questions.
Perfect, we have a ton.
I mean, I don't know ifanybody's ever been on our
website no-transcript.
(30:10):
You get an opportunity to sprayfoam.
If you're not involved withSPFA, get involved.
You know there's SPFAcertifications.
I'm amazed at how many peoplehave not taken those courses.
I don't spray foam.
I'm probably going to go takemy spray foam certification this
year just to have it just tokind of encourage other people
in doing that.
You know, the more that we, themore amount of people that we
(30:32):
can get involved in trying toengage and promote, you know,
doing things correctly withinour industry, the better we will
all grow together, no matterwhat we're all.
We're all differentmanufacturers.
We compete up against eachother.
Grow together, no matter whatwe're all.
We're all differentmanufacturers.
We compete up against eachother, this than that, but at
some point in time, if we don'tget a firm hold of it, it's
going to be taken away from us,definitely.
(30:52):
You know, look at, if you lookup north in canada, you know
they do a great job.
It's all it's out of theirhands though, right, you know so
and I have a lot of respect forwhat they they do up there, um,
and that's that's what we'rekind of where we're at it could,
it could turn into, you know,being taken away like that.
So the better job we do asmanufacturers and distributors
(31:12):
of the industry, I think the thelonger the long-term hold we'll
have on all of it.
Yeah.
Dan (31:18):
Jeremiah, what's your call to action out of this one?
Jeremiah (31:20):
Like I said, call, call the.
You know the informationexperts for what you're doing.
Don't try and guess.
Don't understand the differencebetween Apex and fireproofing,
passive fire protection.
You're insulating someone'shome, someone's business, where
they put food on the table wherethey live.
Just understand what you'redoing, be safe.
Contact the experts if you havequestions.
(31:42):
Don't try and guess when itcomes to these things.
When you're putting assemblytogether, make sure you're
you're doing it right and you'redoing the best you can Cause.
Once again, you want to be theknowledge source for that
customer, right?
Like you said, you give themthe information.
If you lose a job becauseyou're doing it right, once
again that's probably a job youdidn't want.
Again, most of the time theguys are going to they'll see
other bids and they'll see thatyou explain why you're different
(32:05):
and why you're doing it.
Most of the time, homeownersespecially homeowners be like
well, this is my home Shouldprobably research what's going
on and what this guy's talkingabout, instead of just going
with the bid.
That's.
You know.
Sometimes they do go for thecheaper bid, unfortunately, but
most of the time the informedhomeowner will figure out why
you're different.
Nick (32:25):
And go talk to the wife.
Jeremiah (32:26):
There you go, there you go, if you explain it.
Nick (32:29):
I'm a family man, I got kids, I'm gonna do the best job
that I can at protecting myfamily and my, my assets.
Yes is I'll die for yeah.
So if you think I'm gonna cheapout on something that can
protect them further, hell, no,you know that's, that's my
livelihood, that's my life,that's what I live, know.
So, and if people can kind ofthink of it in that same sense,
(32:49):
one of the best things that I doon a daily basis is I take
myself and put myself in theother side of the other phone,
on the other side of the phoneshoots, yeah.
So I'm trying to think of ofwhat they're going through and
how they're thinking of thisthought process.
And it helps me along the way,because in today's world shit's
expensive.
You know people are having ahard time making it, you know.
(33:10):
So any additional cost isdefinitely a hard cost to soak
up, but the only way to reallyget through it is if you have
the education and theinformation to provide to charge
that additional cost.
Because if you don't, thenyou're not, you're not following
all parameters and it's goingto cost you a lot more in the
long run.
Dan (33:29):
Yeah, and what I would add to all of our listeners out
there, to what Jeremiah and Nickhave already said about our
call to action, is don't thinkof it as a secondary product.
This is, it's just dangimportant to do.
Know where you need it, whenyou need it, when's appropriate
and when you're applying it.
Make sure you got the right PPEon.
(33:51):
Don't be out there in yourshorts and you're, you know,
worn out ACDC tank top sprayingaway.
You know, with your sunglasseson, get a mask, get a suit, get
some gloves and read that SDS onthat deal.
Nick (34:05):
Know what you're putting out there and if any questions,
we're all available.
We're all available.
Just call.
You know, and I said it earlier, the only stupid question is
the question you don't ask.
You know that's what our jobsare.
We want to help you guys besuccessful, so you know if we
can help you save $100,000 byasking one question that you
(34:26):
think think stupid, is it reallya stupid question?
Nope.
Dan (34:29):
Exactly Not one bit.
Awesome, nick.
Thank you.
We sure appreciate your timecoming out here sharing the
information.
This is going to be a dang goodpodcast, yeah.
Nick (34:37):
Thank you for having me.
Dan (34:38):
Yeah, all right guys.
Again, if you like what we'redoing, follow us on Facebook.
Spray Foam gmail dot com is ouremail.
If you have any questions, likesubscribe on all your favorite
podcasts.
And again, if you needinformation on this or any other
subject we've talked about, hitus up on one of those.
We will get you with the rightpeople.
(34:59):
Like said, nick has opened uphis door over and over again
through this podcast.
Nick (35:03):
If you have questions, just about any of these
intimesic coatings at all,anything and it doesn't matter
if it's DC three, 15, if it'sany of the other products.
We want to help you guys out.
So if you have questions andyou're having a hard time you
can't get ahold of somebody,reach out.
We're going to help you outwhichever way we can.
Yep.
Dan (35:26):
And we got to special thanks here for invading the Fox
den.
Nick (35:28):
today, energy Fox Solutions, aaron, opened up his
office to us for the last twodays I'm surprised he's taken it
over, I know, but we appreciatehis hospitality.
Yeah, and I want to say a bigthank you to the whole Energy
Fox team and all of you guys forhaving this event and for them
opening their doors andfacilitating all of this.
It's definitely great to seeall the contractors out here and
see some of the eyes perk up onthe information that they're
(35:49):
receiving, so that definitelypays for it all right there.
Jeremiah (35:52):
They come through the swag and the food and realize
wait a second, I learnedsomething Wow.
Dan (35:57):
Which is great.
All right, we'll catch you guyson the next episode.
Okay, welcome back to another episode of Toolbox Talks
on Safety for the Spray FoamIndustry.
I'm Dan Benedict with SprayFoam Arizona, and over there
waving at somebody is JeremiahSchoenberg from UPC.
Nick (00:14):
Nick, go ahead and introduce yourself here, and
you've got Nick McCartney herewith International Fireproof
Technology DC315.
Dan (00:22):
All right Product that all of us in the industry have
probably heard before.
Nick, give us a littlebackground history on yourself
and how you got into theindustry.
Nick (00:30):
So I've been in the construction industry for the
last 20 years.
I've had my own distributionbusiness tailoring to
multifamily apartment complexesand I actually got the
opportunity to sell off mycompany and come over and take
this position here withInternational Fireproof
Technology and I wanted topursue that for the aspect of
(00:52):
fire protection and life safetyand implementing safety
parameters.
I didn't really know what I wasgetting myself into when I took
the position Right.
I kind of thought I was goingto be set up more so as a
firefighter, but now I'm in itand like.
Dan (01:09):
nobody invited you to be in a calendar with your shirt off
yet, or anything, not yet butI've gotten some requests on
Facebook.
I'd be leery, I'd be a littleleery I'll kind of.
Nick (01:20):
I think some of them were Jeremiah.
Jeremiah (01:22):
I was going to say man , I'm pretty sure it was Dan.
Nick (01:25):
I think some of them are Jeremiah.
I was going to say man, I'mpretty sure it was Dan.
So I've been with InternationalFireproof for the last six
years now, came on board as anational accounts manager now,
and now I've moved into the vicepresident of sales and
marketing.
Cool Congratulations.
Dan (01:40):
Thank you.
Nick (01:41):
So pretty much what we do is we try to protect spray foam
from fire to meet any of thecode requirements and code
regulations out there that needto be addressed when using spray
foam on the interior side of abuilding.
Perfect.
Dan (01:56):
Awesome and so, like most of us in the industry, have seen
the name DC 315.
Probably a lot of us have usedit.
I know there's competitivebrands out there and we're sure
not promoting one over the otherand Nick's like, yeah, we are,
but but uh, so, uh, I mean, justgive us the background.
You DC 315, what other productsyou guys have?
(02:17):
What are you doing?
I know it's all based on firesafety and, uh, basically
getting occupants safely out ofan occupied space.
If, on the rare chance that afire happens.
Nick (02:30):
Exactly that.
So our forte is passive fireprotection, so to allow enough
time for people to egress out ofthe building if there is ever
worst case scenario of fire.
We primarily focus onintumescent coatings.
We obviously, everybody knowsDC 315.
That's our product for spraypolyurethane foam.
We do have another productcalled DC 360, and that product
(02:52):
is used for wood and gypsumapplications to increase the
fire resistance rating of thosetype of substrates.
If you need to use fire ratedwood on an application and fire
rated wood was not installed,you can use a product like DC
360 to rate that wood to meetthe same requirements.
Dan (03:12):
And you're saying 360, not 315 or 316?
360.
Jeremiah (03:16):
I didn't know if it was just like going in
sequential order.
Dan (03:19):
I'm like I'm coming out with 317.
I'm taking the market.
Nick (03:25):
No, we just keep adding numbers to our products as we
develop them right um, and wehave been working on a steel
intumescent coating, so we planto launch that within the next
year or so.
Jeremiah (03:32):
Oh, very cool yeah all right, and that's, uh, that.
Would that still be a passive,or would that be more?
Nick (03:37):
that would be considered more fireproof.
Okay, for steel beams and caps,exactly yeah, it's still going
to be a water-based uh low vocproduct, just like the dc315
nice.
Jeremiah (03:47):
So ease of application is what we try to focus on and
the odor from those other onestoo is definitely high, so low
voc is definitely a good thingyeah.
Dan (03:57):
So those of us that are out there that you know spray and
foam, we all run into needingthe intimesic coatings on it.
Heck it.
It's written in the codes, Ithink in a lot of places.
And there's always the argumentwith code officials back and
forth on it.
But being that we're focused onsafety and, like applicator
safety, what safety precautionsdo we need our applicators to be
(04:22):
taking when they grab DC-315?
And how do you want them tohandle that product at the same
time?
Nick (04:28):
For the most part.
As far as safety goes,obviously you're going to want
to wear all of your PPE yourstandard proper protective
equipment when you're installingany coating.
The good thing with our productand most of the intumescent
coatings out there availablethey're low VOC, water-based
products, so they'renon-hazardous, no harmful VOCs.
But you still need to make surethat you're wearing your masks,
(04:51):
you're wearing your Tyvek suits, you're wearing your gloves,
that you're making sure yourcrews are addressing all those
parameters as well, so you canbe the professional on the job
site when you're're applying thecoding you know we do.
For instance, for dc315, we dohave a food contact approval.
So kid you can technically eatif you want to.
I've tried it.
Dan (05:12):
I wouldn't recommend it so you don't season your steaks
with it or anything no, well, Ican tell you, solid dressing
don't shit fire anymore.
Nick (05:18):
yeah so, but as far as safety, it it's a pretty
straightforward application.
That's why we developed theproduct as a single component to
try to make the application aseasy as possible.
Yeah, so, as far as equipmentto apply it, standard airless
(05:39):
sprayer, you know, I would saythe minimum sprayer requirements
is a 695 or a pump that hasthree quarters of a gallon per
minute output at about 3000 PSI.
Ok, I've done demonstrationswhere I've sprayed out of a
Titan 440.
Ok, so if you're in a pinch,you don't have access to a 695
and you've got a project, youknow, 2000 square feet, you
could spray it with 440.
Just make sure you're followingthe temps on our application
(06:03):
guide.
You know the optimal materialtemps would be anywhere from 65
to 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
Jeremiah (06:12):
It mixes up really nice and it helps the
sprayability.
Make sure you're on a smallercoverage, like you said, 2,000
square feet.
If they're using that smallerrig, would you say like they
shouldn't, you wouldn'trecommend it on larger square
footage, right?
Nick (06:21):
Not at all, the main reason being the pumps that size
are not set up to spray thattype of output with that type of
viscosity over time.
Okay, so it'll burn the pump up?
Yeah, but if you're in a pinchyou can spray it.
You know, if you're spraying 2000 square feet, it shouldn't
take you more than a couplehours.
So you're not going to heat upthat pump and burn down but
anything larger like yeah, andespecially if you're getting
(06:42):
into the business of applying itall the time.
I'd go bigger with the pump youshould be investing exactly.
They could do the productionyeah, you get a 1095 or
something larger.
You could put two sprayers onit.
And if you're spraying largeprojects you know 100 000 square
feet, 50 000 square feet youget two sprayers on it.
You're killing out that projectin half the time, and that's
time is money.
Yeah so the more efficient,that you can be on your projects
(07:06):
.
I look at it, that's more moneyin your pocket.
Jeremiah (07:08):
So the reason I recommend hydraulic machines for
anyone that asks like, hey,yeah, it's more expensive, but
yeah, what are you doing for aliving?
Yeah, so, uh, yeah, yeah, spendthe extra, but yeah, if you're
gonna be doing it for a whileyeah, we have an 833 that we
already use for acrylic coatingsand our roofing side of things.
Dan (07:26):
So we end up, just, you know, clear it out with clean
water and switch over when we'respraying.
You know large metal buildingsand stuff with that deal and it
works pretty well.
But we go back to the problem Ihear from all contractors on
any of these intumescentcoatings is they plug up tips,
like they always plug up tips?
Nick (07:51):
So they plug up tips, like they always plug up tips.
So talk us through preventingthat and keeping the uptime on
those sprayers going.
You know when they're applyingyour stuff.
So, like I was saying, one ofthe most important facts factors
that are usually overlooked ismaterial temps Intumescent
coating material temp.
In 65 to 80 degrees Fahrenheittemp, that mixability and the
sprayability coming out fromthat material will be 10 times
better than you trying to mix upa pail that's at 40, 50 degrees
(08:14):
.
Okay, a big thing that's missedtoo is guys in the colder
climates they'll take the pailsout and they'll set them in
their shop on the cold concreteground.
When they do that, that pailfrom the bottom up is now
thickening up because it'strying to freeze from the bottom
Right.
A lot of guys don't understandthat or don't really think about
that.
Jeremiah (08:33):
Yeah.
Nick (08:33):
So they go to put their mixer in the pail, they go to
mix it up and the bucket startsspinning on them.
They're like, oh, the materialis not good.
Jeremiah (08:39):
I know I have guys that will take off, unload a
whole truckload and take it offthe pallets I get over there.
It's like I'm now going to askyou to re put it on all the
pallets, take our stuff off theconcrete floor because, yeah,
you did all that work fornothing.
Nick (08:51):
Yeah, and it's.
I try to resemble the foam.
It's no different than foam,like the HFO, if you start
taking drums and setting out onthe concrete floor it's going to
address it.
So I try to tell contractorsthe best thing you can do is,
when you kick your heater on tostart warming up your barrels,
throw your coating in there withit.
Dan (09:09):
Have it heat up with your phone.
Jeremiah (09:11):
Yeah.
Nick (09:11):
And then when you get to the project, by that time you
can start mixing it.
You'll notice the viscosity,how much looser it is in a
difference of 20 degrees.
Okay, it loosens up that much,Regardless mixing degrees.
Okay, no, it loosens up thatmuch, um, regardless mixing it's
not me, oh it's me.
Dan (09:34):
He who cast the first stone should not live in a glass
house.
Who passed the clicker?
Nick (09:39):
clickered at me, so mixing regardless, okay, back on task
yeah, mixing regardless.
You want to mix any intumescentcoating material for at least
10 to 15 minutes?
Um, you can shake it.
That helps.
The material still needs to bemixed, right?
Um?
Reason being there are solidcontent in the material that
needs to be mixed thoroughlythroughout the entire contents
(10:02):
of the pail.
So don't pick it up shake itand think it's mixed.
Dan (10:05):
Put it down right, yeah, so I got a bad tire on a trailer
right now.
If I just carry them in thattrailer, that's mixing it pretty
well, oh yeah that's, that'sfine.
Nick (10:15):
So, and and those issues are are issues that need, that
are need to be addressed to notclog your sprayer.
You know, the better that youhave the mixed material, the
easier it's going to flowthrough your sprayer.
Jeremiah (10:27):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure, dan, the guys that talk about
clogging and stuff don't don'tdo those, those things to stop
it.
You know, like a lot of mixingand things like that are mixing
too little.
Or you've got a very highviscosity of material and you're
just like, oh, think it's goingto work with you, follow the
same parameters in normaloperating temperatures and once
again just like foam when you'reoutside normal parameters you'd
probably pay attention or makea phone call if you don't know,
(10:49):
because it changes.
Nick (10:51):
It does.
How you deal with it right, itdoes.
One of the best calls I've gotwas recently, probably a couple
of weeks ago.
A guy was mixing with a two byfour Nice, all right and he's
like it's just not mixing up andI'm like how are you mixing?
It's like churning butter andbutter.
Jeremiah (11:04):
I'd like to say that I've never walked into that.
Yes, I have, they think, justbecause it's a larger drum.
I think, maybe, maybe, maybe,but I think I was like no man.
Nick (11:14):
It just doesn't mix it properly and you're going to be
fighting it trying to go throughyour sprayer the whole time.
It needs to be mechanicallymixed and it helps out
tremendously.
And in from a difference of twominutes, when you start to mix,
you'll notice the viscosityloosened up significantly and
recently within the last year itwas actually a beginning of
(11:35):
this year we've slightly reducedthe viscosity of the DC-315
because we're not looking tohang as many mils as we used to.
We used to look to hang 20 to 24mils in a single coat.
Now all of our applicationrates are anywhere from 14 to 18
wet mils, so the viscositydoesn't need to be as thick to
hang that many mils in a singlecoat.
Yeah, now all of ourapplication rates are anywhere
from 14 to 18 wet mils, so theviscosity doesn't need to be as
thick to hang that many mils.
So we've slightly reduced it.
So anybody that's been sprayingit for the last year, you
(11:56):
should notice a prettysubstantial difference in
comparison to what it used to beokay um, I you always hear the
guys that have their magicrecipes.
Dan (12:05):
I put, you know, a bottle of water in every bucket or
something like that.
Can you thin your product down,should you not?
I mean, give us the breakdownon what's really legally and
actually right with what you'vegot provided out there?
Nick (12:22):
so I do not recommend adding any water to it.
Um, you should mechanically mixit for at least 10 to 15
minutes.
Make sure you check yourmaterial temps.
They're in that 65 to 80 degreeFahrenheit range.
Mix it up really well.
If it still does not reduce theviscosity to get it to an
optimal sprayability, you canadd a little bit of water.
And when I say a little bit ofwater I'm talking 250
(12:45):
milliliters of water.
So about the first inch of astandard water bottle.
Start there.
Mix that completely up foranother five to 10 minutes,
because when you pour water intothe coating you'll notice the
water just tries to sit on top.
Yeah, so you have to thoroughlymix it back in.
If you don't thoroughly mix itback in, it's not going to do
anything to adjust the viscosity.
(13:06):
I've heard guys adding fullwater bottles in.
If you add too much water, youpretty much just you didn't
destroy the coating, but you'regoing to have runs coming down
your foam wall or ceiling.
It's because it's going to comedripping and at that point it's
going to cost you a lot moretime and effort to go back and
try to remedy that issue thanslowly adding the water into it.
(13:29):
Okay, so it may take a littlebit more time to mix, but it's
better for you in the long runto where you're not just just
pulling your hair out watchingall this coding that you just
paid for run down the wallsexactly jeremiah.
Dan (13:45):
No, I was like I'm, I'm like, uh, did you know?
I'm like he's gonna saysomething I'm trying to let you
finish.
Jeremiah (13:50):
But I'm also like picturing jobs that I've walked
in on that and like, like man, Iknow exactly what you did.
It's like what do you mean?
I was like dude.
I see it dripping down the wall.
Yeah, come on, man, what'd youdo?
Dan (14:03):
or the, the.
That's why I was laughing.
It wasn't what.
Yeah, they did a bunch ofoverhead and there's the, the
gray flake rain shower all overthe concrete.
Jeremiah (14:11):
We're close, so it looks like stalactites and
they're like I don't know, whatthe problem is.
What happened, man, three poundfoam.
I'm like I'm pretty sure I knowwhat's going on here I added a
gallon of water to it.
Nick (14:21):
What's going on?
Jeremiah (14:22):
I sprayed it, it was like 100 degrees.
Dan (14:24):
It's cool, it's, you know, winter right yeah, and you bring
up the 100 degrees.
We've been talking about thisunderneath the specified temp.
What happens if we get above 85?
Because I'm an arizona ratabove 85.
Nick (14:37):
I mean you can definitely spray an above 85 degrees
fahrenheit.
The biggest thing that you'regoing to want to look for and
address is the humidity.
You definitely do not want tospray at 85 percent relative
humidity yes, viva arizona yeah,you want to keep that humidity
range around solid 50 60 percentum is dc 315.
(14:59):
Any intumescent coating forspray foam is water-based, so as
soon as you start spraying ityou're going to elevate the
humidity because the productcures by evaporation.
I've felt that Yep, and it canincrease by 20%.
Easy, easy.
And that's the importance ofhaving fans and having adequate
ventilation.
Another question that I getquite often on when guys have
(15:19):
sprayed foam one day and theyplan to go back out the
following day and they want tostart off first thing in the
morning and coat Check your dewpoint Just like foam.
Yeah, you know, if you've gotcondensation on the foam, you
start spraying to it.
Dan (15:33):
Yeah.
Nick (15:33):
You're going to have issues with the coating adhering
to the foam.
So just check it.
You know, if you've got to waitan additional hour, that
additional hour can save yourass on the coating not failing
Right.
So you know, I wouldn'trecommend having your guys go
through wipe it down with rags.
I mean you could, if you wantjust you know, go grab some
breakfast or prep, prep some ofthe other portions of the job,
you know, um, but make sure tocheck those things.
(15:54):
It's, it's definitely thingsthat can either make you or
break you on the project towhere you're profitable or not.
Yeah, and we're not in this todo this stuff for free, and
that's that's why all of us arehere as manufacturers, trying to
work together to provide thecorrect information, to educate
the industry, so everybody'ssuccessful and they continue to
grow in the business.
Dan (16:14):
And Jeremiah, you can comment on this also.
But there's times that those ofus that you know our main
business is spray foam and we'llgo through a month and never be
on a job that requiressomething like an intumescent
coating month and never be on ajob that requires something like
an intumescent coating.
So guys will get in thementality of, oh, that's
secondary to the spray foam,like we're a spray foam company,
(16:35):
we're not an intumescentcoating company.
Yeah, but one of the thingsthat nick keeps bringing back
around to us is it's a lot ofthe same things timing, dew
points, temperatures, uh, youknow, yeah, processing
guidelines, everything.
So we need to quit thinkingabout something that is out
there to save lives more thananything else.
(16:57):
You know, spray foams out thereto make make us comfortable.
Yeah, this is out there to savelives.
So, putting proper thought intothe application of it, it's not
like, okay, that helper overthere is the lowest guy in the
totem pole, we're just going togo ahead and have him start
spraying this coating.
Nick (17:14):
And you're kind of like, okay, it's coming out of the gun
, we're going to spray it one ofthe biggest things that I like
to tell people is it's not justa paint, it's an intimate, it's
a coating, it's a fireprotective coating.
So if you can kind of think ofit like that, it's not just a
run-of-the-mill paint it.
We invest countless hours andmillions of dollars into fire
(17:36):
testing our product, but makesure it works, because you
thought that was good oh yeah,you know, I'm just 14 mils run
it it'll dark pass.
Jeremiah (17:44):
No, send it yeah dartboard.
Nick (17:47):
You and everyone at dc, just, let's just guess about it,
yeah good and you guys know,with the foam manufacturers,
there's tremendous amount ofwork that goes on behind the
scenes to make sure our productsare approved for use and safe
to use out in you know, theresidential or commercial
environment, right?
Um, so it's.
I liked it and I try toseparate those two things.
It's not just a paint, it's afire protective coat.
Dan (18:09):
Yeah, it's not a paint.
Yeah, it does not say paintanywhere on any of the barrels
at all.
Nick (18:14):
No, and well, you guys saw the burn demonstration earlier.
I mean, tell me, have you everseen a regular paint perform
like that?
No not at all.
I mean just to alleviate thesmoke and create that
intumescent char barrier andluckily, we took videos, yeah,
so we're going to have videos.
Dan (18:29):
We're going to be able to put up on all of our social
media pages and stuff so youguys can see what we're talking
about in this demonstration.
Nick (18:35):
And a little disclaimer I do not recommend anybody going
out there and burning foamanywhere at all.
Jeremiah (18:41):
Oh, and in the fine print.
Dan (18:43):
Also, when somebody hands you respiratory protection, go
ahead and flip the mask down.
Jeremiah (18:47):
Yeah, flip the mask, that does work better when it's
on your face it does.
Yeah, You're right.
No, I was going to say too,like if I'm going to a job and
I'm inspecting an assembly, I'minspecting your guys' product as
well.
The second it's on there.
It's a different story.
It's not just foam, it's notjust what insulation Like.
It's not just foam, it's notjust what insulation.
Like you said, we're there tomake people more comfortable,
(19:08):
but the thing you put anintimacy coating on, it becomes
an assembly, that is, isinspected for a reason.
Like there's a reason when I goout and I take a sample and I
do a mill check with my coollittle fricking sight glass and
everything else is becausethat's there for, like you said,
egress of the home in a worstcase scenario.
So it's like it's like it's nolonger just soundproofing, it's
no longer to make the energybill lower so you save a little
(19:29):
coin at the end of the month,it's to make sure your family
gets out.
So then it becomes, like I said, it's not a paint, it is a
serious protection to the phoneso you can get out of that
building.
And, like I said, I take it adifferent way when you're
talking about it and then when aguy says I want my phone blue
so I'm going to paint it blue, Iwas like no, you're not.
It's like can they just tint it?
It's like no.
Nick (19:50):
And you can.
You can make it blue, you canmake it pink, you can make it
purple, but you got to put thefire protective coating over it
first, you know.
Then you can top coat it.
So you do, and we've tried togo through it to make sure
everybody has options availableto fit their individual needs.
But at needs, but at the end ofthe day it's designed to be
(20:11):
there to protect from fire, andwe all know.
And one thing I do want toaddress because I see it come up
all too often on social mediaappendix x foam does not mean 15
minute thermal barrier.
Appendix x foam means ignitionbarriers.
So you do not have to use acoating on appendix X foam if
you're using it in attics orcrawl spaces.
(20:31):
If you're using Appendix X foamin a wall on the interior side
of a building where there'speople, you still have to apply
a 15-minute thermal barrier.
Yeah, I see all too often wherecontractors oh, it's 15-minute
rated foam, it's Appendix X,right?
I'm like what are you talking?
Jeremiah (20:47):
about.
That's not how it works.
It doesn't work.
That's not the testing.
Yeah, I wish, but no, like yousaid, it's an assembly that goes
together to maintain safety inthe building, right, and you try
like you brought it up a coupletimes today when in our
presentation too, about apex andeverything else just to relay,
hey, guys like, guys like oh, Iput it up.
I always tell guys we talkedabout the uh, you know, vertical
access and horizontal access.
(21:08):
I try and tell guys, like a lot, you know, if you have the
vertical access door, likepretty much you guarantee you
walk up, like I think you weresaying before, there's going to
be plywood down, there's goingto be boxes, yeah, you're going
to guarantee storage, right.
So it's important for guys tounderstand like you can't just
spray it wherever you want andbe like we're good yeah,
wherever you want and be likewe're good with the Apex stuff
(21:28):
and honestly, at the end of theday, it's not my decision or
your decision or the homeowner'sdecision.
Nick (21:34):
If you have an inspector or the third, you have a
jurisdiction.
It's their decision.
So if they feel that it's easyaccess and that people could
store items up there, they mayrequire you.
It's out of our hands, you know.
We could just try to providethe information to them and
maybe the homeowner can makethem feel more comfortable that
they're going to never put theitems up there.
Dan (21:53):
And but it's not up to us at all, yeah, and, at the end of
the day, it's not somethingthat's worth cheating.
I mean it's it's yeah, my kidslive in my house.
If something would happen, I'dwant my kids to be able to get
out of my house without anybodily bodily harm or, you know,
smoke inhalation injury,anything like that.
(22:15):
It's, it's there.
Jeremiah (22:16):
You still lose jobs because you bid with the coding.
You're like I'm not.
Oh, is that an option?
No, no, no, I separated.
So you understood what the costwas was because I know my
competition is going to give youthis cost with no coding right.
But if you don't use us becauseand you try and subtract, it's
not an option that you cansubtract, it's an option to
understand the cost, yes, well,go, we just take it out.
I was like no, if you're goingto take it out and go with
(22:38):
option b, that's fine, but wewill not do this job because,
once again, I require, requirethis in our company.
So therefore, sorry, and, likeI said, I tell guys, if you lose
those jobs, you probably wantto.
Yeah, exactly.
Nick (22:51):
And that's what I try to educate on all the time.
So when you have a contractorthat's going in to install spray
foam, they're supposed to bethe licensed contractor or
professional that's followingall parameters of that spray
foam installation jobprofessional that's following
all parameters of that sprayfoam installation job.
So you can't go into a houseand have a homeowner sign off on
the fact that they can omit acode requirement because you had
(23:13):
them sign a document.
If there's ever a fire in thathouse, they're going to come
back to who installed the sprayfoam and they're going to ask
these questions on what fireprotection did you provide and
did you provide all parametersof the code?
And if you say, oh, I had thehomeowner sign off saying that
they were going to apply it, doyou think that's going to hold
any weight in court?
Hell no.
Dan (23:34):
And it's not just the homeowner now, it's when that
house changes hands in thefuture which is common.
What they say the averagehomeownership right now is like
five years before people aremoving.
And what they say the averagehomeownership right now is like
five years before people aremoving.
Nick (23:52):
Yeah, you're just sucking that liability up, even though
that guy gave you a little barnapkin that says you know, jim
Bob ain't liable and that's it.
Dan (23:55):
I hear that a lot.
Nick (23:55):
We're on the sticks we don't have inspectors and
exactly.
Dan (23:59):
Oh, we're not inspected out here, it doesn't matter.
Nick (24:04):
And it's funny because a guy last week.
Dan (24:05):
He's refinancing his house.
Oh God, and.
Nick (24:06):
Inspector came out, yep, they caught him with no coding.
They're making him have thecontractor come back and out and
apply the coding, right youknow.
And so in another job I justgot from last week 25,000 square
foot open they believe it's afood storage facility.
They applied dry fall paint.
Inspector came out, he's makingthem.
I I don't think they've decided, but they said they were going
(24:28):
to make them rip the foam andcoating off and reapply the
whole thing.
Oh geez, so I don't believe.
You know, nine times out of ten, if it's a recent job where
they catch that, they're goingto go after the contractor.
That definitely so.
I don't know exactly what'sgoing on now, but there is no
intumescent coatings as a fireprotective coating for spray
foam that can be applied overdry fall or over another paint.
(24:50):
It has to go directly to thespray foam because that's the
way we test in the laboratory.
Now we've also tested with topcoats to go over the fire
coating and we've we've met thatfire testing and it's listed on
all of our documentation.
We've met that fire testing andit's listed on all of our
documentation.
Yeah, so in going intodocumentation the documentation
that us, as manufacturers,provide to you it's all done
(25:15):
from testing and it's all donefrom research, and the main
component of all thatinformation is to try and reduce
liability for you as thecontractor out there in the
field.
So that's why there's all theseparameters that we try to
enforce and have you abide by.
It's to help you.
So if there's any technicalitiesor legalities that come after
(25:37):
something that you've done, youhave thorough documentation to
provide a resolution for it.
Right, you know?
And I recommend you know topcoats.
If there's a protective topcoat needed if you're trying to
have a homeowner omit thethermal barrier, yeah, copy our
literature, put it on your bidsubmittal package and submit
that to the homeowner.
Right, you know?
(25:58):
And if you educate thehomeowner or the general
contractor on these items andyou're bidding against guys that
are not educating, they'regoing to start questioning why
these other bids are so cheapand why these other guys are not
informing them about the safetyparameters of it.
So it's so important if you caneducate and represent yourself
(26:20):
as the professional out theretrying to do it right, even
though you're the most expensivebid, you will probably get the
job nine times out of 10 becauseit raises the question To your
point.
Dan (26:31):
Exactly Yesterday I was doing specific fire blocking in
a barn dominium.
We have one county here inArizona that's extremely
particular about the way fireblocking is done in barn
dominiums, and so I worked withan architect in that county to
draw up a specific drawing ofhow to do it and it's submitted
(26:52):
in plans of my foam customers inthere and I bet I own 90% of
the spray foam market in thatcounty, in barn dominiums.
Because of that one piece ofpaper in dominiums, because of
that one piece of paper and Ican charge in the thousands of
dollars to do that fire block,even though I mean it takes me a
full day.
I got to drag two pieces ofequipment out.
(27:13):
I mean it's costly to do it,it's not like I'm just gouging
on it, but because of thateverybody tells me you're higher
than everybody else.
I say OK, I know, but let'sbreak it down of why I'm higher.
And then every one of thoseguys goes oh, nobody told me
that One guy that didn't listento us spent about an extra seven
(27:37):
thousand dollars stripping allof the foam out of his building
because the county said no, thisis not safe, it's not done
right.
It's not fire blocked Right andit just goes back to the same
point you're making is sometimesbeing right is hard, but it
sure can pay off Exactly that.
Nick (27:56):
You know we're all here trying to help everybody grow
and be successful and make money.
You know, if you don't followthese parameters, just like you
said, that costs that contractorthat much money to cover the
homeowner to come back and ripit out and then reinstall the
whole project and it's just awaste of time and money.
Dan (28:12):
Yeah, yeah, and a bad light on the entire industry.
Yeah, and if an inspector?
Nick (28:18):
came out there.
Now you're red flagged withthat inspector.
Jeremiah (28:21):
Yes, oh you don't want an inspector to know your name
personally.
Luckily in this county.
Dan (28:29):
In this particular county, the inspectors have seen us do
this fire block stuff enoughtime on the barn dominiums and
the icf houses that my peopledrop our name.
You know the clients drop ourname like, okay, we know we're
going for this inspection, weknow we're going to fail it
because the fire blocks them.
Then but here's you know dan'spaperwork and they go, oh, okay,
cool, we'll pick it up on therough-in inspection, yeah, and
(28:50):
they just let it fly, basicallybecause they know it's going to
be done right and we guard thatreputation, yeah, like fort knox
once you get it.
Nick (29:00):
You do not want to lose it , because it can change like
that.
It sure can, yeah, you know,and it can change by a bad team
member or an employee, right?
So that's the importance of usdoing these events and promoting
the education and allparameters in what we do Exactly
All right.
Dan (29:17):
So, Nick, every one of these, we we kind of get to this
point in the podcast where wetry to present a call to action,
Like the contractors that areout there spraying intumescent
coatings.
What call to action would youwant to see?
What's the biggest thing you'dlike to see changed by all of
these people that are doing it?
Nick (29:35):
Do not hesitate to call us or anybody and ask questions.
Perfect, we have a ton.
I mean, I don't know ifanybody's ever been on our
website no-transcript.
(30:10):
You get an opportunity to sprayfoam.
If you're not involved withSPFA, get involved.
You know there's SPFAcertifications.
I'm amazed at how many peoplehave not taken those courses.
I don't spray foam.
I'm probably going to go takemy spray foam certification this
year just to have it just tokind of encourage other people
in doing that.
You know, the more that we, themore amount of people that we
(30:32):
can get involved in trying toengage and promote, you know,
doing things correctly withinour industry, the better we will
all grow together, no matterwhat we're all.
We're all differentmanufacturers.
We compete up against eachother.
Grow together, no matter whatwe're all.
We're all differentmanufacturers.
We compete up against eachother, this than that, but at
some point in time, if we don'tget a firm hold of it, it's
going to be taken away from us,definitely.
(30:52):
You know, look at, if you lookup north in canada, you know
they do a great job.
It's all it's out of theirhands though, right, you know so
and I have a lot of respect forwhat they they do up there, um,
and that's that's what we'rekind of where we're at it could,
it could turn into, you know,being taken away like that.
So the better job we do asmanufacturers and distributors
(31:12):
of the industry, I think the thelonger the long-term hold we'll
have on all of it.
Yeah.
Dan (31:18):
Jeremiah, what's your call to action out of this one?
Jeremiah (31:20):
Like I said, call, call the.
You know the informationexperts for what you're doing.
Don't try and guess.
Don't understand the differencebetween Apex and fireproofing,
passive fire protection.
You're insulating someone'shome, someone's business, where
they put food on the table wherethey live.
Just understand what you'redoing, be safe.
Contact the experts if you havequestions.
(31:42):
Don't try and guess when itcomes to these things.
When you're putting assemblytogether, make sure you're
you're doing it right and you'redoing the best you can Cause.
Once again, you want to be theknowledge source for that
customer, right?
Like you said, you give themthe information.
If you lose a job becauseyou're doing it right, once
again that's probably a job youdidn't want.
Again, most of the time theguys are going to they'll see
other bids and they'll see thatyou explain why you're different
(32:05):
and why you're doing it.
Most of the time, homeownersespecially homeowners be like
well, this is my home Shouldprobably research what's going
on and what this guy's talkingabout, instead of just going
with the bid.
That's.
You know.
Sometimes they do go for thecheaper bid, unfortunately, but
most of the time the informedhomeowner will figure out why
you're different.
Nick (32:25):
And go talk to the wife.
Jeremiah (32:26):
There you go, there you go, if you explain it.
Nick (32:29):
I'm a family man, I got kids, I'm gonna do the best job
that I can at protecting myfamily and my, my assets.
Yes is I'll die for yeah.
So if you think I'm gonna cheapout on something that can
protect them further, hell, no,you know that's, that's my
livelihood, that's my life,that's what I live, know.
So, and if people can kind ofthink of it in that same sense,
(32:49):
one of the best things that I doon a daily basis is I take
myself and put myself in theother side of the other phone,
on the other side of the phoneshoots, yeah.
So I'm trying to think of ofwhat they're going through and
how they're thinking of thisthought process.
And it helps me along the way,because in today's world shit's
expensive.
You know people are having ahard time making it, you know.
(33:10):
So any additional cost isdefinitely a hard cost to soak
up, but the only way to reallyget through it is if you have
the education and theinformation to provide to charge
that additional cost.
Because if you don't, thenyou're not, you're not following
all parameters and it's goingto cost you a lot more in the
long run.
Dan (33:29):
Yeah, and what I would add to all of our listeners out
there, to what Jeremiah and Nickhave already said about our
call to action, is don't thinkof it as a secondary product.
This is, it's just dangimportant to do.
Know where you need it, whenyou need it, when's appropriate
and when you're applying it.
Make sure you got the right PPEon.
(33:51):
Don't be out there in yourshorts and you're, you know,
worn out ACDC tank top sprayingaway.
You know, with your sunglasseson, get a mask, get a suit, get
some gloves and read that SDS onthat deal.
Nick (34:05):
Know what you're putting out there and if any questions,
we're all available.
We're all available.
Just call.
You know, and I said it earlier, the only stupid question is
the question you don't ask.
You know that's what our jobsare.
We want to help you guys besuccessful, so you know if we
can help you save $100,000 byasking one question that you
(34:26):
think think stupid, is it reallya stupid question?
Nope.
Dan (34:29):
Exactly Not one bit.
Awesome, nick.
Thank you.
We sure appreciate your timecoming out here sharing the
information.
This is going to be a dang goodpodcast, yeah.
Nick (34:37):
Thank you for having me.
Dan (34:38):
Yeah, all right guys.
Again, if you like what we'redoing, follow us on Facebook.
Spray Foam gmail dot com is ouremail.
If you have any questions, likesubscribe on all your favorite
podcasts.
And again, if you needinformation on this or any other
subject we've talked about, hitus up on one of those.
We will get you with the rightpeople.
(34:59):
Like said, nick has opened uphis door over and over again
through this podcast.
Nick (35:03):
If you have questions, just about any of these
intimesic coatings at all,anything and it doesn't matter
if it's DC three, 15, if it'sany of the other products.
We want to help you guys out.
So if you have questions andyou're having a hard time you
can't get ahold of somebody,reach out.
We're going to help you outwhichever way we can.
Yep.
Dan (35:26):
And we got to special thanks here for invading the Fox
den.
Nick (35:28):
today, energy Fox Solutions, aaron, opened up his
office to us for the last twodays I'm surprised he's taken it
over, I know, but we appreciatehis hospitality.
Yeah, and I want to say a bigthank you to the whole Energy
Fox team and all of you guys forhaving this event and for them
opening their doors andfacilitating all of this.
It's definitely great to seeall the contractors out here and
see some of the eyes perk up onthe information that they're
(35:49):
receiving, so that definitelypays for it all right there.
Jeremiah (35:52):
They come through the swag and the food and realize
wait a second, I learnedsomething Wow.
Dan (35:57):
Which is great.
All right, we'll catch you guyson the next episode.
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