October 2, 2025 • 45 mins
Kill the Buddha? In this episode I unpack the famous Zen koan to expose spiritual materialism, ego traps, and how to ground practice in real life—on the cushion, in traffic, and in hard conversations. We look at the subtle ways the ego turns spirituality into an identity, and the simple moves that bring you back: breath, honesty, humility, and beginner’s mind.
Along the way: Chögyam Trungpa’s warning about “spiritual materialism,” Jesus and the I AM, Richard Rohr’s The Universal Christ, Ram Dass, Zen/Taoist pointers, and a closing reading of Kabir’s “the breath inside the breath.” If you’ve ever wondered whether your practice is helping you wake up or just look awake, this one’s for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jacob (00:14):
If you encounter the Buddha on the path, kill him.
Hello, and welcome back to theStanding Nowhere podcast.
This is your host, Jacob, andit is a pleasure to be back with
you.
And of course, this is notmeant to be taken literally.
What it points to, however, iswhat I'm going to be talking
(00:40):
about on this episode, which isspiritual materialism, a term
coined by a Tibetan Buddhist bythe name of Chogyam Trungpa
Rimpoche from his book CuttingThrough Spiritual Materialism.
And what the Koan points to isessentially looking within
(01:03):
yourself for truth, not takinganyone's word for it, but seeing
how it resonates within you,seeing if it rings a bell of
truth within.
In other words, not holding anyconcept in your mind as gospel,
(01:27):
but seeing for yourself throughlived experience if what you
are practicing holds true.
To quote Trungpa from his book,he says, the basic point of
spiritual materialism is to tryto use spirituality to improve
(01:48):
ego, to make it morecomfortable, or to make it
bigger.
Our ego or sense of self willhijack spirituality, turning it
into another possession or abadge that you can wear.
(02:08):
And we've all seen this before.
I grew up, and this is from myown perspective, I grew up in a
Christian household.
And I always felt like I was inthe club, that I was on the
correct path.
But I I always knew somethingwas a little off.
(02:30):
I didn't know how to express itthough.
I remember when I used to go tochurch, the first thing I felt
weird about was the way weworshiped.
You know, people would raisetheir hands up in the air and
close their eyes.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
But I just never felt compelledto do it.
(02:52):
And I never felt forced to doit either.
I remember one time when I wasin the service in North
Carolina, I went to a verycharismatic church, and people
were just jumping out of theirpews, doing cartwheels.
Not literally, but I rememberpeople would kind of pat me on
the back and kind of push me tojoin in.
(03:14):
And I would clap my hands, butI wasn't uh I wasn't as, I don't
know, I was enthusiastic aboutworshiping, but it just wasn't
my style.
But growing up, I always feltjust that something was off with
the whole idea that you've gotto believe Jesus Christ is the
(03:40):
correct path, or you are goingto burn in hell forever.
And I've got 70 odd years in mylife to convince you otherwise.
I had a really good friend, oneof my one of my best friends in
my life, who I still talk to tothis day, he grew up agnostic.
(04:01):
And yet he embodied fully allthe things that we spoke about
at church.
Compassion, all the values thatJesus taught.
I'm not, I'm not gonna painthim as a saint or anything, but
he was a very good person, avery good friend of mine, still
(04:21):
one of the best friends I'veever had to this day.
And he always had, he alwaystook an agnostic point of view
towards life.
And I remember he would, hewould kind of gently tease me
about being a quote unquotebeliever, growing up Christian,
(04:41):
and I would always kind of teasehim about not believing in any
one thing per se.
He was always very clear not tosay that he didn't believe in
nothing, he just wasn't sure.
As I would later find out inrecent years, agnostia, the word
I believe in Greek, which meansthe unknowing, is one of the
(05:03):
highest forms of wisdom that youcan have.
The not knowing mind.
Not knowing how it is, buttrusting.
And we see this all throughoutsociety today.
There are wonderful humanbeings who do great things who
don't go around forcing religiondown your throat.
(05:24):
You must believe this.
To me, when I grew up in thischurch, I never even asked
myself why I believe what Ibelieved.
I wasn't even overly familiarwith the Bible.
I remember my mother told mewhen I was young, if I read the
(05:47):
Bible, that she would buy me aSuper Nintendo.
So I did, but how much do youthink I really soaked in?
You know, I just kind of wentthrough it.
Look, mom, I finished.
It didn't take me very long.
Maybe a month.
How much did I really absorb,though?
(06:07):
I used to go to a group calledAwanas when I was a kid, which
is where they bring youngchildren in um sort of like
youth groups, up with thepremise of memorizing Bible
verses.
But to this day, I when I thinkback to that, none of it really
(06:29):
mattered to me.
What mattered to me was theprize, getting the recognition,
belonging.
And I've realized looking backthat belonging is not the same
thing as truth.
Belonging is a social need andit's valuable.
But truth, that's somethingthat you can only live, that you
(06:53):
can experience, that comes withexperience, that comes with
time.
Belonging will tell you who youare or who you belong to, I
should say, what group you'rein.
But truth, it asks the questionam I awake right now?
Because truth is always rightin front of you right now.
(07:13):
It's not in your head, it'sit's the present moment.
You see, I'm I'm not bashingChristianity.
I still go to a Christianchurch on occasion with my
(07:34):
mother and uh wife, and we I canworship just fine alongside
everyone in the church.
Now, of course, if I startquoting Buddhism to them or
things like that, so you mightcall me a little bit of a
different flavor of Christian.
I don't even really identify asa Christian.
(07:56):
I guess you could call me amystic because I love pulling
from all different traditions.
You know, it's it's sort oflike when people try to find
their position on a map.
I don't I don't know if youguys are familiar with the
method of triangulation.
They use it with cell phonetowers as well.
It's where you get two pointsof reference to find your
(08:18):
position.
And that's what I've been doingover these last three plus
years is looking outside of mytraditional upbringing, because
as you all know, probably fromepisode one, I found myself in a
very dark place.
And the the tradition that Iwas brought up in, well, I don't
want to say there was somethinglacking, but my understanding
(08:40):
of it was lacking.
So I started listening tophilosophers of Eastern wisdom
and triangulating myself in away.
I have I now understand or havean interpretation that is much
more spiritually enriching forme because I am embracing other
(09:06):
human beings just like you andme, that are part of this world,
part of this universe, thatgrew up in a different place, in
different times, and havedifferent relations to what we
call life.
And the way that they say themost similar things to what I
was raised in excites me and atthe same time helps me
(09:30):
understand it in different waysthat I didn't consider before,
which is, of course, one of themain inspirations for me
starting this podcast is sharingsome of this wisdom, which is
why in episodes you will hear mequote from Jesus, you will hear
me quote from Tibetan Buddhistslike Chogyam Trunk Trunkpa
Rinpoche or the Buddha himself,you'll hear me quote from Lao
(09:53):
Tzu, you'll hear me quote fromthe Bhagavad Gita.
Because again, belonging to aclub is not truth.
It's okay to have a tradition.
There are many traditions andpaths up the same mountain, but
truth that can only be found inthe present moment and if you're
awake.
(10:13):
This is echoed by Jesus in theGospel of John.
He was speaking to Nicodemus,and he says, and he says, The
wind blows where it chooses, andyou hear the sound of it, but
you do not know where it comesfrom or where it goes.
So it is with everyone who isborn of the spirit.
(10:37):
When he says the wind blows,that word wind is the same word
as spirit.
And what he's speaking to hereis that spirituality is not
about a membership or a club.
It is about the unpredictablemovement of what we call spirit,
(11:00):
or that some call Tao in theEast, the way of things, or in
Buddhism or Hinduism, they wouldcall the Dharma, the unfolding
of things.
We don't know how it c how itworks.
You hear the sound of it, butyou do not know where it comes
(11:21):
from or where it goes.
But you trust it.
You live in that spontaneity.
There's a book which Iabsolutely love and recommend to
everyone by an author namedRichard Rohr called The
Universal Christ.
And he says in that book, amature Christian sees Christ in
(11:46):
everything and everyone else.
That is a definition that willnever fail you.
Always demand more of you, andgive you no reasons to fight.
Exclude or reject anyone.
Because we identify ourselveswith our roles and the clubs
(12:12):
that we're in.
You know, I'm a DoorDashdriver.
I'm a loser.
I'm forty two years old doingDoorDash.
I'm a billionaire.
I did something right.
I worked hard for my billions.
I'm a dad.
My kids better listen to me.
The worst are the religiousroles.
(12:34):
I'm a Christian.
I've got the right path.
Everyone else has no clue whatthey're talking about, and they
need to accept Jesus or else.
Well, I'm an atheist.
I don't believe in all thatnonsense.
(12:55):
I'm a meditator.
I meditate a lot.
I'm very awake.
All these people I encounterevery day, they're asleep.
They need to wake up.
Oh, I'm enlightened.
I'm gonna start a YouTubechannel and tell everyone I'm
enlightened.
Nonsense.
All of them.
You are none of those things.
(13:20):
This exclusive path that I grewup with was really outlined in
John 14, 6.
I am the way, truth, and life.
Nobody comes to the Father butthrough me.
But we learn that Jesus hadseveral I am statements, and he
spoke from the I am within him,not from the Jesus part of
(13:43):
himself.
He even said in certain partsof the Bible, He who has faith
in me has not faith in me,Jesus, but in him who sent me.
And the I am is in all of us.
The I am will never fail you.
It's a divine part of lifewithin us all.
(14:05):
I am tired, I am hungry, I amgoing to work.
There's always the I am priorto everything else, and we all
share that.
It is indivisible.
And these roles are notexclusive to Christians.
I mean, it's in everytradition.
You'll get spiritualone-upmanship.
Even atheism.
(14:26):
I'm an atheist.
I'm a nihilist.
I face facts.
This whole universe is random.
I don't need to tell myself astory about a man in a cloud or
heaven.
I face facts.
When you're dead, you're dead.
That's it.
That's all there is.
But you see, all of this, allof these identities, especially
(14:54):
the spiritual ones, they arefingers pointing at the moon,
but they are not the moonitself.
And what we what happens is wemistake the pointer for the
thing that it's pointing to.
Richard Rohr speaks to this inthat same book I mentioned,
Universal Christ.
He says, Too often we havesubstituted the message the
(15:19):
messenger for the message.
As a result, we spend a greatdeal of time worshiping the
messenger and trying to getother people to do the same.
Too often this obsession becamea pious substitute for actually
following what he taught.
And he did ask us several timesto follow him, and never once
(15:42):
to worship him.
I know that may soundpolarizing to some, but it's
true.
Jesus never asked to beworshipped.
In fact, we find him washingpeople's feet and saying things
like, Sure, great things have Idone, but greater things will
(16:04):
you do.
But today we've turned it intoa club.
And we see the badges onpeople's bumper stickers, or in
the way they live, and the waythey describe themselves.
When when Jesus said, They willknow you are my disciples by
(16:30):
the love you have for oneanother, we toss that out, and
then we turn it into a club.
You've got to believe in him.
That's the bottom line, that'sthe most important thing.
Sure, it's great to lovepeople, but you've got to
believe this or else.
Chogyam Trunk uh TrunkpaRinpoche in his book Cutting
(16:52):
Through Spiritual Materialism,he also says the surrender which
is involved in following thespiritual path is the surrender
of ego.
It is not a question of givingoneself up to something else,
but of giving up the referencepoint, the self-centered
(17:16):
clinging.
You see what he's saying hereis you've got to give up the
idea of yourself as belonging toX and take action.
(17:37):
Move.
Do the thing that the teacher,or whatever word you want to put
there, is telling you to tryand experience for yourself.
See what happens.
See how you feel when you lovepeople.
(17:57):
See how you feel when you areangry towards people, or cut
someone else off on the road, ortry to be first in front of
someone else.
See how you feel for yourself.
If you get yourself out of theway, you'll notice things will
start aligning for younaturally.
(18:19):
You'll feel good about helpingpeople.
And this is where authenticspirituality takes shape.
Not only is it spontaneous, butit's authentic because it's
spontaneous.
It's not preconceived, it's notpre-planned.
This is why on this podcast, Iam, um, since the beginning,
(18:41):
I've planned on doinginterviews, of course, and I
haven't had as much time as Iwould have liked, but I've had
two so far.
And if you listen to theinterviews, you'll you will hear
human beings like you and metalking about their experiences
in life and how they have dealtwith them.
My mother, my first interview,in that episode, she describes
(19:05):
praying over her children, overus, while we were sleeping in
our cribs at night.
See, that is not a ritual.
That is not something she wasforced to do.
She felt compelled in the darkwith her hand over our heads,
praying for us.
That is somebody who has pushedthemselves out of the way and
(19:30):
is giving it to something higherthan themselves.
It doesn't matter whether youwant to call it God or a father
or mother, mother nature.
She is passing it to a higherpower, to a higher, something
higher than what she perceivesas herself.
(19:50):
That is the opposite of tryingto control everything.
Or Kate, I my second interview,um, she went through a toxic
relationship.
She wrote a book about it,which, by the way, is called
Rose Colored Glasses, and thatcomes out the day you'll hear
(20:13):
this podcast, October 2nd.
And she talks about how shebrought mindfulness into her
life.
And I asked her about that, andshe said that she didn't have a
specific practice that she did.
There was no labels for it, butshe enjoys the simple things in
the morning.
She'll sit by a window and lookout at the rain in Seattle and
(20:38):
have tea or coffee in themorning and just sit.
Or she may do a crosswordpuzzle and just lose herself in
it.
See, her form of mindfulness,it doesn't it doesn't have the
label that you might find likein um because I I when I was
(20:58):
speaking to her afterwards, Isaid, you know, the things that
you do are very much in linewith Zen Buddhism.
And we find that in ZenBuddhism, which I'll talk about
later, how they don't like tolabel their activities.
They even have tea ceremoniesand things like that, which are
deeply religious for them, butthey don't have labels.
And Kate naturally, as she hasaged and gone through these
(21:24):
traumas, learned to process thetrauma by just allowing space
for herself.
That peaceful view out thewindow, just sitting.
Our relatives who used to havefront yards, they would sit on
the porch swing and just sit.
There is deep wisdom in thiswithout labeling it.
(21:49):
There's an old Zen parableabout a student talking to his
master and reading from one oftheir scriptures saying The
voices of torrents are from onegreat tongue.
The lines of the hills are thepure body of Buddha.
And the teacher replied, Yes,it is, but it's a pity to say
(22:11):
so.
Pointing to the fact that whenwe put things in words and label
things, it diminishes them in away.
Ram Das, one of the majorinspirations in my life, he says
(22:32):
that all methods are traps.
Use them to get free, and thenhope they self-destruct so you
don't get caught in them.
This is echoed in Buddhism.
There's a saying where ourspiritual traditions are like a
boat.
They get you across the river.
But when you get across, youdon't pick up the boat and carry
(22:52):
it with you after you're there.
You leave it there.
And this doesn't mean that youcan't continue meditating after
you've found spaciousness inyour life or things like that,
or read the Bible or theBhagavad Gita, or the Tao
Diching, or whatever spiritualtexts.
You can keep reading thosethings.
In fact, that's a good thing.
But you have to have that partin you that's willing to let
(23:19):
even those go.
Otherwise, you risk thisspiritual materialism that we're
talking about.
Risk it becoming an idol,something that you cling to.
It's it's like I used to go toa home church group, I think
(23:43):
I've mentioned on a podcastbefore this, and there was a
there's a lot of good peoplethere.
And as I mentioned earlier, Ican worship alongside anybody,
any tradition.
Even if they don't have thesame views as me.
And there was a man there whoused to send me just constant
(24:04):
anti-gay, anti-LGBTQ content.
And it I'm not saying he was abad person or anything like
that, but it was just, it was sofascinating to me that we would
gather together at a church insomeone's house and praise
whatever this mystery is, givethanks to it and love and share
(24:25):
our love for it.
And then outside of that, himsending me anti-gay things.
I remember he sent me one of atestimony from somebody who had
been, quote, fixed by thechurch, how they used to be gay,
and the church fixed them.
It's like spirituality isbecoming weaponized.
Where's the love in that?
(24:48):
Are we really going to convertpeople back to heterosexuality?
I could do a whole episodedebunking that, but I won't I
won't digress into that now.
But it reminded me of a moviecalled Saved with Mandy Moore.
And there's a there's a there'sa point in the end where one of
(25:11):
the gay characters, they'retrying to convert him back, and
his uh friend, who's a girl, shesays, Why would God make us all
so different if he wanted us tobe the same?
Because look around.
Look at the universe, look atnature.
Whatever this mystery is, weknow that it loves variety.
(25:32):
We even say variety is thespice of life.
So why are we trying to fixpeople and force them into a box
that we think is the correctbox?
Can we live and let live,coexist, allow each other to
(25:55):
embark in our own traditions?
And the virtue signaling onsocial media, we see that as
well.
This false piety.
Because the idea of it is youare the product and you're
(26:30):
trying to promote yourself as aquote unquote influencer.
And when spirituality crossesinto that, it just creates this
really awkward feeling in me.
Like, and I I'm always checkingmyself on that because I have a
I have a Standing Nowherepodcast Instagram and um, you
know, X account and things likethat.
(26:52):
So I use those to promote thepodcast, and I'm always double
checking myself, like, am Icrossing into that spiritual
materialism line?
You know, I try to promote itwith just sound bites and things
that'll make people feel good,usually quotes from other
people, but oh, yeah.
Instagram virtue signaling,it's it's out of control on some
(27:16):
accounts.
We also see this in uhpolitics, you know, political
leaders pushing their agendasusing spirituality to do so.
So it takes spiritualmaterialism takes many forms,
and it can be staggering on onthe the just how crazy some of
(27:38):
the forms it takes.
And the interesting thing ishow much this contrasts with
some of the Eastern traditions,particularly in Zen Buddhism or
in Taoism.
For example, in Zen Buddhism,it is considered very religious
(27:59):
or highly spiritual to not putlabels on things, to not idolize
scripture.
There's a Zen proverb thatsays, Before I had studied Zen
for thirty years, I sawmountains as mountains, and
rivers as rivers.
(28:19):
When I arrived at a moreintimate knowledge, I came to
the point where I saw thatmountains are not mountains, and
rivers are not rivers.
But now that I have got itsvery substance, I am at rest,
for it's just that I seemountains once again as
(28:41):
mountains, and rivers once againas rivers.
And this really points to thestages we go through as we are
seekers, seeking truth, lookingfor the truth behind things.
(29:02):
You know, at first you're toldas a child, these are mountains,
these are rivers, these aretrees, and you don't even think
about it.
And then, like he says, whenyou arrive at a more intimate
knowledge and you start lookinginto it, you get into that phony
holy phase, sort of where youlook at everything and you're
(29:23):
saying, This is all an illusion,it's all one thing, you know,
blah, blah, blah.
But once you've internalizedthat and you understand that,
you can come back to the socialconventional level and say,
sure, that's a mountain, that'sa tree.
And you know in your heart ofhearts that it's all one thing,
but you don't have to live withthat material label, if you
(29:47):
will.
Because the label of a tree isjust as much of a label as
saying everything is one.
You know, anything you put intowords.
Sort of flattens it andtwo-dimensionalizes it.
There's a very, very spiritualand deeply religious poem.
(30:10):
It's actually a haiku by uh Ibelieve it's a Zen poet named
Basho.
It's very short.
It says an old pond.
A frog jumps in.
Plop.
Do you see the beauty in that?
(30:37):
Nothing else needs to be said.
He indulges in words, but onlyslightly enough to get the point
across.
Ramdas, he says, you have toremember your Buddha or
(31:05):
Christ-like nature and yoursocial security number.
Because we live in a world thatexists on both those planes.
On one level, we are all one.
We all share that same being,that same awakened Buddha nature
(31:26):
or Christ nature, whatever youwant to put a label on it as.
And we live in a world withsocial security numbers and
smartphones.
So you can't dismiss one andsay it's not a part of this
whole thing.
Paying your taxes is part ofthis process.
If you separate it in yourmind, that's division.
(31:48):
That's that's materialism.
That creates spiritualmaterialism.
Because then you're sayingspirituality is over here, and I
can't wait to get back to itafter I file my taxes, after I
go to work.
You have to see it everywhere,in everything, in every one.
(32:09):
Otherwise, you risk becomingegotistical about it.
There's a saying from Lao TzuHe who stands on tiptoe is not
steady.
He who shows himself is notenlightened.
(32:33):
He who boasts of himself is notgiven credit.
He who prides himself is notchief.
And the mystic poet Rumi echoesthis.
He says, The ego is a veilbetween humans and God.
In prayer, all should dissolveand vanish before him.
(32:56):
Stop thinking about it.
Stop labeling things.
There's really no need.
It is what it is.
Do you really want to be thatperson that is identified as the
annoying spiritual person?
(33:18):
I'm always checking myself ifI'm crossing into that
territory.
And I have several times when Ifirst started learning about
all these things, you know, Ithink most people do.
It's exciting to start tofinally look into your true
nature to become a seeker.
And I used to annoy the hellout of my wife with uh little
(33:42):
jokes and sayings.
It's all one, you know, it'sthe present moment.
Or I used to say it's a divinemanifestation, babe.
We'd be walking, you know,there'd be uh, I don't know,
something something really nastyuh on the side of the road or
something like roadkill, youknow, it's a divine
manifestation of the divine.
She'd just roll her eyes at me.
(34:04):
On one level, it's absolutelytrue.
Everything is a manifestationof the divine.
But even saying that kind ofcreates a differentiation,
divine and not divine.
In uh the book of Matthew,Jesus warns about righteousness
for show.
He says, Beware of practicingyour righteousness before others
(34:24):
in order to be seen by them.
For then you have no rewardfrom your Father in heaven.
So whenever you give alms, donot sound a trumpet before you,
as the hypocrites do in thesynagogues and in the streets,
so that they may be praised byothers.
Truly I tell you, they havereceived their reward.
(34:45):
Don't tell other people whenyou're doing good things.
Do it spontaneously with noexpectation of reward.
And don't overthink it too.
If your family member or friendasks you for help, don't sit
and deliberate on it.
Act.
There's always that battlebetween the head and the heart.
(35:09):
How much should I help people?
How much should I give thishomeless person?
If I indulge too much, theycould end up on my couch.
So we have to, the mind has todraw some line somewhere.
But the more you act out ofspontaneity, the more you'll
make that correct choice, Ithink.
(35:29):
And Jesus warned about prideand making sure to have humility
over pride.
In the book of Luke, he saysthat two men went up to the
temple to pray, one a Phariseeand the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee standing byhimself was praying thus God, I
(35:52):
thank you that I'm not likeother people, thieves, rogues,
adulterers, or even like thistax collector.
I fast twice a week, I give atenth of all my income.
But the tax collector, standingfar off, would not even look up
to heaven, but was beating hisbreast saying, God, be merciful
(36:15):
to me, a sinner.
I tell you, this man went downto his home justified rather
than the other, for all whoexalt themselves will be
humbled, but all who humblethemselves will be exalted.
So you see, this is echoedthrough all traditions.
(36:45):
Get rid of yourself.
Get over yourself.
Chogyim Trunkpa Rimpoche, inthat same book I've been quoting
this episode, he says we mustbe willing to face the reality
of our lives without anydeception or self-deception.
(37:09):
Do not think highly ofyourself.
Don't think anything ofyourself.
It will weigh you down.
It will make you not who youwant to be.
Be selfless.
Don't be self-centered.
(37:31):
Don't do things for self-gain.
Don't help others forself-gain.
Don't think highly of yourself.
Don't think anything ofyourself.
Because how do we do this?
There's only one way.
(37:54):
Because you can't do anything.
The you that you think needs todo something to overcome
spiritual materialism is thesame you that can't do it.
So the only option is to restinto awareness and notice, keep
noticing when the ego ishijacking your practice.
(38:16):
This happens to me constantly,still does, and probably always
will.
I'll be sitting on my cushion.
Oh, I've been meditating threeyears.
Is this working?
Back to the breath.
Man, I spend so much timethinking about not thinking.
I just need to not think.
(38:36):
Back to the breath.
Keep returning to beginner'smind.
No judgment, just return.
Your mind, look at it like alittle puppy that just keeps
wandering away and you gentlybring it back.
You don't slap it.
Man, I think more aboutpracticing and how to practice
(39:01):
than actually doing thepractice.
Back to the breath.
That's an interesting thought.
That one really convinced me.
That one that one got me for alittle while.
Oh, back to the breath.
Man, this is so hard.
I am so not focused today.
Back to the breath.
(39:21):
That's the key.
That's the trick.
I gotta remember this trick.
I gotta have an interest intaking myself back to the back
to the breath.
That's all you can do.
You will not find the answer inthinking.
(39:42):
You have to come back, whetherit's your breath or whatever.
One-pointedness, of course, isone aspect of mindfulness, but
awareness of what you are doing.
If you're walking, you're awarethat you're walking.
And as soon as you notice yourmind tries to take you away from
walking, you come back towalking.
(40:02):
If you're working, if I'mdriving my car doing deliveries,
I'm just driving my car doingdeliveries.
And if my mind takes me awayabout things I have to do later
in the day or the episode orblah, blah, blah, I come back to
driving.
And every now and again, a goodidea will pop up in my head and
I put it in the notes on myphone and I come back to
(40:23):
driving.
I don't sit in thought spirals.
That is the practice.
When I am talking to someone,and they're talking to me, I am
just listening to them.
And if my mind tries to take meaway with what I'm going to say
next, I come back to whatthey're saying.
And when it's time for me tospeak, I will know what to say,
(40:45):
and I can trust that I'll knowwhat to say.
Keep returning.
Back to the beginner's mind.
Keep returning.
Allegiance to the void impliesdenial of its voidness.
The more you talk about it, themore you think about it, the
further from it you go.
(41:06):
Stop talking.
Stop thinking, and there isnothing you will not understand.
Return to the root, and youwill find the meaning.
Pursue the light and you loseits source.
(41:28):
Look inward and in a flash youwill conquer the apparent and
the void.
All come from mistaken views.
There is no need to seek truth.
Only stop having views.
(41:51):
So understand that the ordinaryand the spiritual are
inseparable.
They are two sides of the sameshape.
Understand that there aredifferent paths up the same
(42:19):
mountain.
The point is that you walk thepath.
Pick one and walk.
There are plenty of good ones.
And as Trungpa Rinpoche says inhis book, before we close out
here, he says enlightenment isthe ego's ultimate
(42:41):
disappointment.
I'm going to close this outwith a reading from Kabir called
The Breath Inside the Breath.
But before I do, I wouldencourage you if you like this
episode and want to hear more,to please subscribe or follow
(43:03):
the show on whichever app youlisten on, as it will help this
show grow and reach more people.
And now Kabir's Breath Insidethe Breath.
Are you looking for me?
I'm in the next seat.
My shoulder is against yours.
(43:23):
You will not find me in stupas,not in Indian shrine rooms, nor
in synagogues, nor incathedrals, not in masses, nor
in kirtans.
Not in legs winding around yourown neck, nor in eating nothing
(43:44):
but vegetables.
When you really look for me,you will see me instantly.
You will find me in the tiniesthouse of time.
Kabir says, Student, tell me,what is God?
He is the breath inside thebreath.
(44:07):
So remember, folks, if youencounter the Buddha on the
path, kill him.
If you encounter the Buddha on the path, kill him.
Hello, and welcome back to theStanding Nowhere podcast.
This is your host, Jacob, andit is a pleasure to be back with
you.
And of course, this is notmeant to be taken literally.
What it points to, however, iswhat I'm going to be talking
(00:40):
about on this episode, which isspiritual materialism, a term
coined by a Tibetan Buddhist bythe name of Chogyam Trungpa
Rimpoche from his book CuttingThrough Spiritual Materialism.
And what the Koan points to isessentially looking within
(01:03):
yourself for truth, not takinganyone's word for it, but seeing
how it resonates within you,seeing if it rings a bell of
truth within.
In other words, not holding anyconcept in your mind as gospel,
(01:27):
but seeing for yourself throughlived experience if what you
are practicing holds true.
To quote Trungpa from his book,he says, the basic point of
spiritual materialism is to tryto use spirituality to improve
(01:48):
ego, to make it morecomfortable, or to make it
bigger.
Our ego or sense of self willhijack spirituality, turning it
into another possession or abadge that you can wear.
(02:08):
And we've all seen this before.
I grew up, and this is from myown perspective, I grew up in a
Christian household.
And I always felt like I was inthe club, that I was on the
correct path.
But I I always knew somethingwas a little off.
(02:30):
I didn't know how to express itthough.
I remember when I used to go tochurch, the first thing I felt
weird about was the way weworshiped.
You know, people would raisetheir hands up in the air and
close their eyes.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
But I just never felt compelledto do it.
(02:52):
And I never felt forced to doit either.
I remember one time when I wasin the service in North
Carolina, I went to a verycharismatic church, and people
were just jumping out of theirpews, doing cartwheels.
Not literally, but I rememberpeople would kind of pat me on
the back and kind of push me tojoin in.
(03:14):
And I would clap my hands, butI wasn't uh I wasn't as, I don't
know, I was enthusiastic aboutworshiping, but it just wasn't
my style.
But growing up, I always feltjust that something was off with
the whole idea that you've gotto believe Jesus Christ is the
(03:40):
correct path, or you are goingto burn in hell forever.
And I've got 70 odd years in mylife to convince you otherwise.
I had a really good friend, oneof my one of my best friends in
my life, who I still talk to tothis day, he grew up agnostic.
(04:01):
And yet he embodied fully allthe things that we spoke about
at church.
Compassion, all the values thatJesus taught.
I'm not, I'm not gonna painthim as a saint or anything, but
he was a very good person, avery good friend of mine, still
(04:21):
one of the best friends I'veever had to this day.
And he always had, he alwaystook an agnostic point of view
towards life.
And I remember he would, hewould kind of gently tease me
about being a quote unquotebeliever, growing up Christian,
(04:41):
and I would always kind of teasehim about not believing in any
one thing per se.
He was always very clear not tosay that he didn't believe in
nothing, he just wasn't sure.
As I would later find out inrecent years, agnostia, the word
I believe in Greek, which meansthe unknowing, is one of the
(05:03):
highest forms of wisdom that youcan have.
The not knowing mind.
Not knowing how it is, buttrusting.
And we see this all throughoutsociety today.
There are wonderful humanbeings who do great things who
don't go around forcing religiondown your throat.
(05:24):
You must believe this.
To me, when I grew up in thischurch, I never even asked
myself why I believe what Ibelieved.
I wasn't even overly familiarwith the Bible.
I remember my mother told mewhen I was young, if I read the
(05:47):
Bible, that she would buy me aSuper Nintendo.
So I did, but how much do youthink I really soaked in?
You know, I just kind of wentthrough it.
Look, mom, I finished.
It didn't take me very long.
Maybe a month.
How much did I really absorb,though?
(06:07):
I used to go to a group calledAwanas when I was a kid, which
is where they bring youngchildren in um sort of like
youth groups, up with thepremise of memorizing Bible
verses.
But to this day, I when I thinkback to that, none of it really
(06:29):
mattered to me.
What mattered to me was theprize, getting the recognition,
belonging.
And I've realized looking backthat belonging is not the same
thing as truth.
Belonging is a social need andit's valuable.
But truth, that's somethingthat you can only live, that you
(06:53):
can experience, that comes withexperience, that comes with
time.
Belonging will tell you who youare or who you belong to, I
should say, what group you'rein.
But truth, it asks the questionam I awake right now?
Because truth is always rightin front of you right now.
(07:13):
It's not in your head, it'sit's the present moment.
You see, I'm I'm not bashingChristianity.
I still go to a Christianchurch on occasion with my
(07:34):
mother and uh wife, and we I canworship just fine alongside
everyone in the church.
Now, of course, if I startquoting Buddhism to them or
things like that, so you mightcall me a little bit of a
different flavor of Christian.
I don't even really identify asa Christian.
(07:56):
I guess you could call me amystic because I love pulling
from all different traditions.
You know, it's it's sort oflike when people try to find
their position on a map.
I don't I don't know if youguys are familiar with the
method of triangulation.
They use it with cell phonetowers as well.
It's where you get two pointsof reference to find your
(08:18):
position.
And that's what I've been doingover these last three plus
years is looking outside of mytraditional upbringing, because
as you all know, probably fromepisode one, I found myself in a
very dark place.
And the the tradition that Iwas brought up in, well, I don't
want to say there was somethinglacking, but my understanding
(08:40):
of it was lacking.
So I started listening tophilosophers of Eastern wisdom
and triangulating myself in away.
I have I now understand or havean interpretation that is much
more spiritually enriching forme because I am embracing other
(09:06):
human beings just like you andme, that are part of this world,
part of this universe, thatgrew up in a different place, in
different times, and havedifferent relations to what we
call life.
And the way that they say themost similar things to what I
was raised in excites me and atthe same time helps me
(09:30):
understand it in different waysthat I didn't consider before,
which is, of course, one of themain inspirations for me
starting this podcast is sharingsome of this wisdom, which is
why in episodes you will hear mequote from Jesus, you will hear
me quote from Tibetan Buddhistslike Chogyam Trunk Trunkpa
Rinpoche or the Buddha himself,you'll hear me quote from Lao
(09:53):
Tzu, you'll hear me quote fromthe Bhagavad Gita.
Because again, belonging to aclub is not truth.
It's okay to have a tradition.
There are many traditions andpaths up the same mountain, but
truth that can only be found inthe present moment and if you're
awake.
(10:13):
This is echoed by Jesus in theGospel of John.
He was speaking to Nicodemus,and he says, and he says, The
wind blows where it chooses, andyou hear the sound of it, but
you do not know where it comesfrom or where it goes.
So it is with everyone who isborn of the spirit.
(10:37):
When he says the wind blows,that word wind is the same word
as spirit.
And what he's speaking to hereis that spirituality is not
about a membership or a club.
It is about the unpredictablemovement of what we call spirit,
(11:00):
or that some call Tao in theEast, the way of things, or in
Buddhism or Hinduism, they wouldcall the Dharma, the unfolding
of things.
We don't know how it c how itworks.
You hear the sound of it, butyou do not know where it comes
(11:21):
from or where it goes.
But you trust it.
You live in that spontaneity.
There's a book which Iabsolutely love and recommend to
everyone by an author namedRichard Rohr called The
Universal Christ.
And he says in that book, amature Christian sees Christ in
(11:46):
everything and everyone else.
That is a definition that willnever fail you.
Always demand more of you, andgive you no reasons to fight.
Exclude or reject anyone.
Because we identify ourselveswith our roles and the clubs
(12:12):
that we're in.
You know, I'm a DoorDashdriver.
I'm a loser.
I'm forty two years old doingDoorDash.
I'm a billionaire.
I did something right.
I worked hard for my billions.
I'm a dad.
My kids better listen to me.
The worst are the religiousroles.
(12:34):
I'm a Christian.
I've got the right path.
Everyone else has no clue whatthey're talking about, and they
need to accept Jesus or else.
Well, I'm an atheist.
I don't believe in all thatnonsense.
(12:55):
I'm a meditator.
I meditate a lot.
I'm very awake.
All these people I encounterevery day, they're asleep.
They need to wake up.
Oh, I'm enlightened.
I'm gonna start a YouTubechannel and tell everyone I'm
enlightened.
Nonsense.
All of them.
You are none of those things.
(13:20):
This exclusive path that I grewup with was really outlined in
John 14, 6.
I am the way, truth, and life.
Nobody comes to the Father butthrough me.
But we learn that Jesus hadseveral I am statements, and he
spoke from the I am within him,not from the Jesus part of
(13:43):
himself.
He even said in certain partsof the Bible, He who has faith
in me has not faith in me,Jesus, but in him who sent me.
And the I am is in all of us.
The I am will never fail you.
It's a divine part of lifewithin us all.
(14:05):
I am tired, I am hungry, I amgoing to work.
There's always the I am priorto everything else, and we all
share that.
It is indivisible.
And these roles are notexclusive to Christians.
I mean, it's in everytradition.
You'll get spiritualone-upmanship.
Even atheism.
(14:26):
I'm an atheist.
I'm a nihilist.
I face facts.
This whole universe is random.
I don't need to tell myself astory about a man in a cloud or
heaven.
I face facts.
When you're dead, you're dead.
That's it.
That's all there is.
But you see, all of this, allof these identities, especially
(14:54):
the spiritual ones, they arefingers pointing at the moon,
but they are not the moonitself.
And what we what happens is wemistake the pointer for the
thing that it's pointing to.
Richard Rohr speaks to this inthat same book I mentioned,
Universal Christ.
He says, Too often we havesubstituted the message the
(15:19):
messenger for the message.
As a result, we spend a greatdeal of time worshiping the
messenger and trying to getother people to do the same.
Too often this obsession becamea pious substitute for actually
following what he taught.
And he did ask us several timesto follow him, and never once
(15:42):
to worship him.
I know that may soundpolarizing to some, but it's
true.
Jesus never asked to beworshipped.
In fact, we find him washingpeople's feet and saying things
like, Sure, great things have Idone, but greater things will
(16:04):
you do.
But today we've turned it intoa club.
And we see the badges onpeople's bumper stickers, or in
the way they live, and the waythey describe themselves.
When when Jesus said, They willknow you are my disciples by
(16:30):
the love you have for oneanother, we toss that out, and
then we turn it into a club.
You've got to believe in him.
That's the bottom line, that'sthe most important thing.
Sure, it's great to lovepeople, but you've got to
believe this or else.
Chogyam Trunk uh TrunkpaRinpoche in his book Cutting
(16:52):
Through Spiritual Materialism,he also says the surrender which
is involved in following thespiritual path is the surrender
of ego.
It is not a question of givingoneself up to something else,
but of giving up the referencepoint, the self-centered
(17:16):
clinging.
You see what he's saying hereis you've got to give up the
idea of yourself as belonging toX and take action.
(17:37):
Move.
Do the thing that the teacher,or whatever word you want to put
there, is telling you to tryand experience for yourself.
See what happens.
See how you feel when you lovepeople.
(17:57):
See how you feel when you areangry towards people, or cut
someone else off on the road, ortry to be first in front of
someone else.
See how you feel for yourself.
If you get yourself out of theway, you'll notice things will
start aligning for younaturally.
(18:19):
You'll feel good about helpingpeople.
And this is where authenticspirituality takes shape.
Not only is it spontaneous, butit's authentic because it's
spontaneous.
It's not preconceived, it's notpre-planned.
This is why on this podcast, Iam, um, since the beginning,
(18:41):
I've planned on doinginterviews, of course, and I
haven't had as much time as Iwould have liked, but I've had
two so far.
And if you listen to theinterviews, you'll you will hear
human beings like you and metalking about their experiences
in life and how they have dealtwith them.
My mother, my first interview,in that episode, she describes
(19:05):
praying over her children, overus, while we were sleeping in
our cribs at night.
See, that is not a ritual.
That is not something she wasforced to do.
She felt compelled in the darkwith her hand over our heads,
praying for us.
That is somebody who has pushedthemselves out of the way and
(19:30):
is giving it to something higherthan themselves.
It doesn't matter whether youwant to call it God or a father
or mother, mother nature.
She is passing it to a higherpower, to a higher, something
higher than what she perceivesas herself.
(19:50):
That is the opposite of tryingto control everything.
Or Kate, I my second interview,um, she went through a toxic
relationship.
She wrote a book about it,which, by the way, is called
Rose Colored Glasses, and thatcomes out the day you'll hear
(20:13):
this podcast, October 2nd.
And she talks about how shebrought mindfulness into her
life.
And I asked her about that, andshe said that she didn't have a
specific practice that she did.
There was no labels for it, butshe enjoys the simple things in
the morning.
She'll sit by a window and lookout at the rain in Seattle and
(20:38):
have tea or coffee in themorning and just sit.
Or she may do a crosswordpuzzle and just lose herself in
it.
See, her form of mindfulness,it doesn't it doesn't have the
label that you might find likein um because I I when I was
(20:58):
speaking to her afterwards, Isaid, you know, the things that
you do are very much in linewith Zen Buddhism.
And we find that in ZenBuddhism, which I'll talk about
later, how they don't like tolabel their activities.
They even have tea ceremoniesand things like that, which are
deeply religious for them, butthey don't have labels.
And Kate naturally, as she hasaged and gone through these
(21:24):
traumas, learned to process thetrauma by just allowing space
for herself.
That peaceful view out thewindow, just sitting.
Our relatives who used to havefront yards, they would sit on
the porch swing and just sit.
There is deep wisdom in thiswithout labeling it.
(21:49):
There's an old Zen parableabout a student talking to his
master and reading from one oftheir scriptures saying The
voices of torrents are from onegreat tongue.
The lines of the hills are thepure body of Buddha.
And the teacher replied, Yes,it is, but it's a pity to say
(22:11):
so.
Pointing to the fact that whenwe put things in words and label
things, it diminishes them in away.
Ram Das, one of the majorinspirations in my life, he says
(22:32):
that all methods are traps.
Use them to get free, and thenhope they self-destruct so you
don't get caught in them.
This is echoed in Buddhism.
There's a saying where ourspiritual traditions are like a
boat.
They get you across the river.
But when you get across, youdon't pick up the boat and carry
(22:52):
it with you after you're there.
You leave it there.
And this doesn't mean that youcan't continue meditating after
you've found spaciousness inyour life or things like that,
or read the Bible or theBhagavad Gita, or the Tao
Diching, or whatever spiritualtexts.
You can keep reading thosethings.
In fact, that's a good thing.
But you have to have that partin you that's willing to let
(23:19):
even those go.
Otherwise, you risk thisspiritual materialism that we're
talking about.
Risk it becoming an idol,something that you cling to.
It's it's like I used to go toa home church group, I think
(23:43):
I've mentioned on a podcastbefore this, and there was a
there's a lot of good peoplethere.
And as I mentioned earlier, Ican worship alongside anybody,
any tradition.
Even if they don't have thesame views as me.
And there was a man there whoused to send me just constant
(24:04):
anti-gay, anti-LGBTQ content.
And it I'm not saying he was abad person or anything like
that, but it was just, it was sofascinating to me that we would
gather together at a church insomeone's house and praise
whatever this mystery is, givethanks to it and love and share
(24:25):
our love for it.
And then outside of that, himsending me anti-gay things.
I remember he sent me one of atestimony from somebody who had
been, quote, fixed by thechurch, how they used to be gay,
and the church fixed them.
It's like spirituality isbecoming weaponized.
Where's the love in that?
(24:48):
Are we really going to convertpeople back to heterosexuality?
I could do a whole episodedebunking that, but I won't I
won't digress into that now.
But it reminded me of a moviecalled Saved with Mandy Moore.
And there's a there's a there'sa point in the end where one of
(25:11):
the gay characters, they'retrying to convert him back, and
his uh friend, who's a girl, shesays, Why would God make us all
so different if he wanted us tobe the same?
Because look around.
Look at the universe, look atnature.
Whatever this mystery is, weknow that it loves variety.
(25:32):
We even say variety is thespice of life.
So why are we trying to fixpeople and force them into a box
that we think is the correctbox?
Can we live and let live,coexist, allow each other to
(25:55):
embark in our own traditions?
And the virtue signaling onsocial media, we see that as
well.
This false piety.
Because the idea of it is youare the product and you're
(26:30):
trying to promote yourself as aquote unquote influencer.
And when spirituality crossesinto that, it just creates this
really awkward feeling in me.
Like, and I I'm always checkingmyself on that because I have a
I have a Standing Nowherepodcast Instagram and um, you
know, X account and things likethat.
(26:52):
So I use those to promote thepodcast, and I'm always double
checking myself, like, am Icrossing into that spiritual
materialism line?
You know, I try to promote itwith just sound bites and things
that'll make people feel good,usually quotes from other
people, but oh, yeah.
Instagram virtue signaling,it's it's out of control on some
(27:16):
accounts.
We also see this in uhpolitics, you know, political
leaders pushing their agendasusing spirituality to do so.
So it takes spiritualmaterialism takes many forms,
and it can be staggering on onthe the just how crazy some of
(27:38):
the forms it takes.
And the interesting thing ishow much this contrasts with
some of the Eastern traditions,particularly in Zen Buddhism or
in Taoism.
For example, in Zen Buddhism,it is considered very religious
(27:59):
or highly spiritual to not putlabels on things, to not idolize
scripture.
There's a Zen proverb thatsays, Before I had studied Zen
for thirty years, I sawmountains as mountains, and
rivers as rivers.
(28:19):
When I arrived at a moreintimate knowledge, I came to
the point where I saw thatmountains are not mountains, and
rivers are not rivers.
But now that I have got itsvery substance, I am at rest,
for it's just that I seemountains once again as
(28:41):
mountains, and rivers once againas rivers.
And this really points to thestages we go through as we are
seekers, seeking truth, lookingfor the truth behind things.
(29:02):
You know, at first you're toldas a child, these are mountains,
these are rivers, these aretrees, and you don't even think
about it.
And then, like he says, whenyou arrive at a more intimate
knowledge and you start lookinginto it, you get into that phony
holy phase, sort of where youlook at everything and you're
(29:23):
saying, This is all an illusion,it's all one thing, you know,
blah, blah, blah.
But once you've internalizedthat and you understand that,
you can come back to the socialconventional level and say,
sure, that's a mountain, that'sa tree.
And you know in your heart ofhearts that it's all one thing,
but you don't have to live withthat material label, if you
(29:47):
will.
Because the label of a tree isjust as much of a label as
saying everything is one.
You know, anything you put intowords.
Sort of flattens it andtwo-dimensionalizes it.
There's a very, very spiritualand deeply religious poem.
(30:10):
It's actually a haiku by uh Ibelieve it's a Zen poet named
Basho.
It's very short.
It says an old pond.
A frog jumps in.
Plop.
Do you see the beauty in that?
(30:37):
Nothing else needs to be said.
He indulges in words, but onlyslightly enough to get the point
across.
Ramdas, he says, you have toremember your Buddha or
(31:05):
Christ-like nature and yoursocial security number.
Because we live in a world thatexists on both those planes.
On one level, we are all one.
We all share that same being,that same awakened Buddha nature
(31:26):
or Christ nature, whatever youwant to put a label on it as.
And we live in a world withsocial security numbers and
smartphones.
So you can't dismiss one andsay it's not a part of this
whole thing.
Paying your taxes is part ofthis process.
If you separate it in yourmind, that's division.
(31:48):
That's that's materialism.
That creates spiritualmaterialism.
Because then you're sayingspirituality is over here, and I
can't wait to get back to itafter I file my taxes, after I
go to work.
You have to see it everywhere,in everything, in every one.
(32:09):
Otherwise, you risk becomingegotistical about it.
There's a saying from Lao TzuHe who stands on tiptoe is not
steady.
He who shows himself is notenlightened.
(32:33):
He who boasts of himself is notgiven credit.
He who prides himself is notchief.
And the mystic poet Rumi echoesthis.
He says, The ego is a veilbetween humans and God.
In prayer, all should dissolveand vanish before him.
(32:56):
Stop thinking about it.
Stop labeling things.
There's really no need.
It is what it is.
Do you really want to be thatperson that is identified as the
annoying spiritual person?
(33:18):
I'm always checking myself ifI'm crossing into that
territory.
And I have several times when Ifirst started learning about
all these things, you know, Ithink most people do.
It's exciting to start tofinally look into your true
nature to become a seeker.
And I used to annoy the hellout of my wife with uh little
(33:42):
jokes and sayings.
It's all one, you know, it'sthe present moment.
Or I used to say it's a divinemanifestation, babe.
We'd be walking, you know,there'd be uh, I don't know,
something something really nastyuh on the side of the road or
something like roadkill, youknow, it's a divine
manifestation of the divine.
She'd just roll her eyes at me.
(34:04):
On one level, it's absolutelytrue.
Everything is a manifestationof the divine.
But even saying that kind ofcreates a differentiation,
divine and not divine.
In uh the book of Matthew,Jesus warns about righteousness
for show.
He says, Beware of practicingyour righteousness before others
(34:24):
in order to be seen by them.
For then you have no rewardfrom your Father in heaven.
So whenever you give alms, donot sound a trumpet before you,
as the hypocrites do in thesynagogues and in the streets,
so that they may be praised byothers.
Truly I tell you, they havereceived their reward.
(34:45):
Don't tell other people whenyou're doing good things.
Do it spontaneously with noexpectation of reward.
And don't overthink it too.
If your family member or friendasks you for help, don't sit
and deliberate on it.
Act.
There's always that battlebetween the head and the heart.
(35:09):
How much should I help people?
How much should I give thishomeless person?
If I indulge too much, theycould end up on my couch.
So we have to, the mind has todraw some line somewhere.
But the more you act out ofspontaneity, the more you'll
make that correct choice, Ithink.
(35:29):
And Jesus warned about prideand making sure to have humility
over pride.
In the book of Luke, he saysthat two men went up to the
temple to pray, one a Phariseeand the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee standing byhimself was praying thus God, I
(35:52):
thank you that I'm not likeother people, thieves, rogues,
adulterers, or even like thistax collector.
I fast twice a week, I give atenth of all my income.
But the tax collector, standingfar off, would not even look up
to heaven, but was beating hisbreast saying, God, be merciful
(36:15):
to me, a sinner.
I tell you, this man went downto his home justified rather
than the other, for all whoexalt themselves will be
humbled, but all who humblethemselves will be exalted.
So you see, this is echoedthrough all traditions.
(36:45):
Get rid of yourself.
Get over yourself.
Chogyim Trunkpa Rimpoche, inthat same book I've been quoting
this episode, he says we mustbe willing to face the reality
of our lives without anydeception or self-deception.
(37:09):
Do not think highly ofyourself.
Don't think anything ofyourself.
It will weigh you down.
It will make you not who youwant to be.
Be selfless.
Don't be self-centered.
(37:31):
Don't do things for self-gain.
Don't help others forself-gain.
Don't think highly of yourself.
Don't think anything ofyourself.
Because how do we do this?
There's only one way.
(37:54):
Because you can't do anything.
The you that you think needs todo something to overcome
spiritual materialism is thesame you that can't do it.
So the only option is to restinto awareness and notice, keep
noticing when the ego ishijacking your practice.
(38:16):
This happens to me constantly,still does, and probably always
will.
I'll be sitting on my cushion.
Oh, I've been meditating threeyears.
Is this working?
Back to the breath.
Man, I spend so much timethinking about not thinking.
I just need to not think.
(38:36):
Back to the breath.
Keep returning to beginner'smind.
No judgment, just return.
Your mind, look at it like alittle puppy that just keeps
wandering away and you gentlybring it back.
You don't slap it.
Man, I think more aboutpracticing and how to practice
(39:01):
than actually doing thepractice.
Back to the breath.
That's an interesting thought.
That one really convinced me.
That one that one got me for alittle while.
Oh, back to the breath.
Man, this is so hard.
I am so not focused today.
Back to the breath.
(39:21):
That's the key.
That's the trick.
I gotta remember this trick.
I gotta have an interest intaking myself back to the back
to the breath.
That's all you can do.
You will not find the answer inthinking.
(39:42):
You have to come back, whetherit's your breath or whatever.
One-pointedness, of course, isone aspect of mindfulness, but
awareness of what you are doing.
If you're walking, you're awarethat you're walking.
And as soon as you notice yourmind tries to take you away from
walking, you come back towalking.
(40:02):
If you're working, if I'mdriving my car doing deliveries,
I'm just driving my car doingdeliveries.
And if my mind takes me awayabout things I have to do later
in the day or the episode orblah, blah, blah, I come back to
driving.
And every now and again, a goodidea will pop up in my head and
I put it in the notes on myphone and I come back to
(40:23):
driving.
I don't sit in thought spirals.
That is the practice.
When I am talking to someone,and they're talking to me, I am
just listening to them.
And if my mind tries to take meaway with what I'm going to say
next, I come back to whatthey're saying.
And when it's time for me tospeak, I will know what to say,
(40:45):
and I can trust that I'll knowwhat to say.
Keep returning.
Back to the beginner's mind.
Keep returning.
Allegiance to the void impliesdenial of its voidness.
The more you talk about it, themore you think about it, the
further from it you go.
(41:06):
Stop talking.
Stop thinking, and there isnothing you will not understand.
Return to the root, and youwill find the meaning.
Pursue the light and you loseits source.
(41:28):
Look inward and in a flash youwill conquer the apparent and
the void.
All come from mistaken views.
There is no need to seek truth.
Only stop having views.
(41:51):
So understand that the ordinaryand the spiritual are
inseparable.
They are two sides of the sameshape.
Understand that there aredifferent paths up the same
(42:19):
mountain.
The point is that you walk thepath.
Pick one and walk.
There are plenty of good ones.
And as Trungpa Rinpoche says inhis book, before we close out
here, he says enlightenment isthe ego's ultimate
(42:41):
disappointment.
I'm going to close this outwith a reading from Kabir called
The Breath Inside the Breath.
But before I do, I wouldencourage you if you like this
episode and want to hear more,to please subscribe or follow
(43:03):
the show on whichever app youlisten on, as it will help this
show grow and reach more people.
And now Kabir's Breath Insidethe Breath.
Are you looking for me?
I'm in the next seat.
My shoulder is against yours.
(43:23):
You will not find me in stupas,not in Indian shrine rooms, nor
in synagogues, nor incathedrals, not in masses, nor
in kirtans.
Not in legs winding around yourown neck, nor in eating nothing
(43:44):
but vegetables.
When you really look for me,you will see me instantly.
You will find me in the tiniesthouse of time.
Kabir says, Student, tell me,what is God?
He is the breath inside thebreath.
(44:07):
So remember, folks, if youencounter the Buddha on the
path, kill him.
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