September 25, 2025 • 53 mins
Kate Mageau is a therapist, author, and toxic-relationship survivor who joins me to talk candidly about the mechanics of abuse, the long arc of healing, and what it takes to rebuild self-trust without losing tenderness or hope.
Together we map the patterns that keep people stuck—gaslighting, shame spirals, trauma bonds, and the cycle of violence—and practice simple ways to move from analysis paralysis to clear decision-making. We focus on safety planning, overcoming hesitation, and mindfulness in daily life so that recovery becomes a lived reality rather than a distant idea.
Kate Mageau, LMHC, ADHD-CCSP, is a therapist, author, and toxic relationship survivor. Rose Colored Glasses teaches about toxic relationships through story, with psychological explanations after every chapter. The Healing from Toxic Relationships workbook teaches the mechanisms of abuse in more detail, and provides thoughtful journal prompts and coping tools. Kate Mageau is available for coaching worldwide, for ADHD, writing memoirs and self-publishing, starting businesses, and career coaching. https://www.katemageau.com/
Her book Rose Colored Glasses releases October 2 (one week after this episode airs). You can find it here: https://a.co/d/8U7owlG
Content note: This episode contains discussions of intimate partner violence and abuse. If you need support, the Domestic Violence Hotline is 800-799-SAFE (7233) and https://thehotline.org
Thank you for listening with care. May this conversation meet you where you are and help you take the next small, courageous step. 🕊️
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jacob (00:00):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Standing
Nowhere podcast.
This is your host, JacobBuehler.
It's a pleasure to be back withyou.
Today is episode 14, and I havea very special guest, Kate
Mageau, on the podcast.
She's a therapist, an author,and a toxic relationship
survivor.
We're going to be talking abouther new upcoming book called
Rose-Colored Glasses, whichreleases on October 2nd of this
(00:23):
year, one week after thisepisode airs.
And the book tells her powerfulstory of surviving intimate
partner violence, and afterevery chapter, she shares
reflections that unpack thepsychology of abuse and healing.
Our lives were actuallyintertwined back then, and I
even appear in her story underthe pseudonym of John.
(00:43):
I do want to give you a headsup, though, for listeners.
This episode will containdiscussions of intimate partner
violence and abuse, so pleasetake care as you listen.
Now let's jump into theconversation.
Kate, do you want to talk alittle bit, just kind of a
(01:11):
little brief overview of whatthe book touches on here?
Kate (01:14):
Yeah, yes.
Thanks, Jake, for having me.
I'm very excited for this.
So Rose-Colored Glasses is mystory as a memoir of what it was
like for me to be in a toxicrelationship and how I got out
of it.
And then after finishingwriting the story, a couple
years later, once I went tograduate school and became a
(01:36):
therapist, I went back and Iwrote...
the explanations ofpsychologically what was
happening so that when you readthe story, you're immersed in
the story, but you're alsolearning the mechanism so you
know what happens, why ithappened, why people stay, how
to notice warning signs, how tosafely get out.
(02:00):
Yeah, so it's a healing tool.
Jacob (02:04):
Absolutely.
Would you describe it almost asan adventure romance novel?
Kate (02:08):
thank you so much for saying that because yes it is
like a it is a story on a toxicrelationship or domestic
violence but i wanted to reallycapture the good parts too and
like i i kind of felt like it'slike i'm i'm writing a rom-com
except for there's emotionalabuse in it um yeah because that
(02:29):
is real life right in real lifelike there's so many people
will say things like well iwould never be in a Yeah,
Jacob (02:43):
absolutely.
I was in the backseat of thecar.
(03:09):
There was a time when Jasonwanted you to find like a casino
we wanted to go to on his GPSon his phone, and you couldn't
find it fast enough.
And he did like this littlebackhand to your cheek, kind of
like he was joking, but notjoking.
And I remember the look on yourface was just like shock and
(03:31):
awe, like, wow.
And that leads me into my firstquestion really about this book
is, What were some of the earlybehaviors that you may have
either excused or overlookedthen, but you recognize now as
abuse?
Kate (03:53):
Yeah, well, yeah, when we were, you and I were messaging a
few days ago or however, well,last week or something.
And you told me about thatmemory and I did not remember it
until you mentioned it.
And I may have been very inshock and awe at that moment,
(04:13):
but I also had somewhatnormalized it or else I would
have remembered it, right?
It didn't make it into thebook.
It didn't make it into mycurrent memory because the brain
really can't handle all thehard memories.
That's one thing.
But that is an example ofsomething that I must have
(04:35):
excused at that moment to belike, oh, okay, this is just how
things are Yeah.
Um, where I think, um, someother examples would be his
quote unquote teasing.
Like he was constantly puttingme down, but framing it as a
joke.
Jacob (04:53):
Right.
I remember.
Kate (04:55):
And I think that was like the big thing where it was like,
Oh no, you're just being toosensitive.
If you find this to like, yeah.
If a person saying you're justbeing too sensitive, that is,
that's minimizing.
And that is actually a, um, aform of emotional abuse, right?
And so it's kind of themechanism of how it works is
that he minimized my experiencesto then prioritize his
(05:19):
experiences.
There's just so many ways Icould go into this.
Jacob (05:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I remember from myperspective, I was just getting
to know you guys as well.
And I didn't know what tothink.
But I wanted to jump forward alittle bit with a part of your
book uh that i wanted to readout if that's okay it was on
your wedding night
Kate (05:45):
yeah
Jacob (05:46):
quote he slapped me across the face i let out a
shriek and began to sob what didyou just do did you really just
hit me and then you say foryears after this i felt that i
let this happen to me or that icaused it in some way and after
moments like that what did whatdid self blame look like for you
(06:11):
and how did it help shape yourchoices going forward because I
remember you talked about thatin the book like it was a
definite period of time whereyou sort of I don't know did you
blame yourself for that
Kate (06:25):
yeah oh that's such a powerful question and powerful
moment very pivotal moment inthe story yeah so it was our
wedding night and I was tootired we had we both had drinks
so much.
We were pretty drunk.
And I was just too drunk andtired to have sex and to...
(06:46):
What's the word?
Consummate.
Consummate.
Thank you.
Consummate the marriage.
And that's when he hit me.
And so that was how it wasframed.
He framed it as, you didn't doX, so I did Y.
And that's how it began in myhead.
(07:12):
And then I actually push outthat memory after that day.
Um, you know, he apologized, itwas so traumatic and we are
about to get on the plane to goon our honeymoon like that next
day.
And so it's like, what do I,what do I do now?
Like, you know, um,
Jacob (07:35):
Especially after all the planning you did for the
wedding.
I remember not only Being thereand remembering you do it, but
reading it again in your book, Ican only imagine.
And then, you know, having anythoughts of blaming yourself.
Kate (07:48):
Right, right.
But that was how he phrased it,right?
He phrased so much like, oh,this is my fault for things.
And so I just, you know, itdidn't start that way.
But over time, that way ofthinking really does get into
your head.
And so that's the self-talk oflike, okay, what can I do
differently to where thisdoesn't happen again?
(08:08):
And how do I keep him happy?
How do I make sure that hedoesn't like that?
I don't mess up.
Jacob (08:15):
Right.
Kate (08:16):
And yeah, that gets a little bit into the concept of
moving the goalpost, which issomething abusers will do.
It's like nothing can ever begood enough.
So as much as I kept saying,like, I'm just going to try and
make him happy.
I'm going to try and not, notupset him.
Uh, it's not possible.
It's just literally notpossible in an abusive
(08:38):
relationship.
You know, matter how hard youtry and so you end up kind of
getting the external abuseemotional abuse of beating
yourself and then you're beingbeaten up emotionally and then
you're beating yourself upemotionally for for not doing
the things exactly the way thatlike you had wanted to and then
(08:58):
also you're kind of like end uppre beating yourself up like
okay so if I don't do this andhe'll be upset that I didn't do
this so therefore you know Ihave to do it and oh I can't
find the motivation to do thisand so what's wrong with me okay
I gotta just make sure and solike all that self-talk goes on
(09:19):
and on in your head and that'sjust one of the biggest reasons
why it's so hard to leave isbecause the self-esteem gets so
eroded in such a it's like sosubtle as it as it happens and
as I
Jacob (09:34):
guess like you're walking on eggshells kind
Kate (09:37):
of yeah yeah yeah
Jacob (09:39):
And that leads me into my next question, which it comes
from...
I have my notes here.
It was in the 16th chapterwhere you talk about the trauma
bond.
Can you talk about how abuserscreate almost like a crisis and
(10:02):
then heal it?
And what does living in thatcycle feel like?
Kate (10:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So it is...
is literally a cycle it'scalled the cycle of violence and
it starts out with tensionbuilding there's lots of
different if you google anyonecan google cycle of violence and
you'll see like four or fivedifferent iterations of it but
the most basic level it is threesteps tension building so
building up to the event andthen there's the event of
(10:30):
whatever type of abuse it is andthen there's the honeymoon
period and so the tensionbuilding is that walking on
eggshells don't know when thenext blow up is going to be.
I don't know when the nextevent is going to be.
I'm going to try and doeverything perfectly.
I can't.
Well, now the goalpost keepsgetting moved.
The goalpost has moved againand I'm just not going to be
able to live to that example orbe the way he wants me to be.
(10:56):
Abuse happens.
Then he makes up and thenapologizes or somewhat.
He was never good atapologizing.
But you the couple makes up andthen you're like okay we're
closer together because we andthere's this feeling of we've
survived a thing together
Jacob (11:16):
and
Kate (11:18):
so each time the cycle happens it's a trauma bond that
is getting you closer and closerbut the other thing that's
really important to know andwhat's really scary about it is
that the cycle at first it canbe like a whole year right like
the whole like first year we'retogether like did nothing happen
(11:39):
until that like a year and thenum and maybe even the first one
was like a year and a half intobeing together um and then the
next one was like a year laterand the next one was like eight
or nine months later ten monthslater or something like that but
every time it it startshappening more and more
(11:59):
frequently and more intensely soevery time a cycle completes
you are in more and more dangerof being hurt
Jacob (12:07):
hmm yeah and And like you said, there's, there's spaces
in between and we're, um,obviously, um, you and I both
know, of course, we're, I'mjumping the highlights here of
the book, but they're like youdescribe in the book, there was
wonderful periods where you haveimmense love for this person.
I had as a friend, a plutonicfriend, immense love for, for
(12:29):
Jason as well.
He was one of the best friendsI ever had.
And all of this was so, um,there's not even a word It's
just beyond shocking.
And I can only imagine whatthat cycle must have been like
to have that love for him thatintensifies more and more,
especially as you go throughthese cycles.
Kate (12:49):
Yeah.
I mean, that's where it'sromanticized, right?
It's like we look at theseother couples from previous
generations that stay togetherfor so long.
But like, look, people weren'ttalking about domestic violence
then.
People weren't talking aboutdomestic violence.
Even when I left this 10 yearsago, it was not something that
(13:09):
we talked about in society sogoing back generations and
generations and we're like ohbut my grandparents stayed
together forever yeah because noone spoke up because they
didn't know that they like andalso women weren't even allowed
to have credit cards until the70s or vote into the 20s right
(13:30):
like if we look at like yesolder couples stay together
longer but I don't believethat's because they just learned
how to make up better becausethey didn't have the
opportunities to be apart.
And no-fault divorce was alsoin the 70s, right?
(13:51):
They can't just, even thoughabuse is not a no-fault divorce,
but having the option to easilydivorce, having the option to
get a credit card, to get ahome.
I think getting a mortgage forwomen was not until the 80s or
90s.
I mean, people did not havethe...
the education to understandwhat domestic violence was
(14:12):
because it wasn't spoken aboutor talked about.
And we, and it even reallystarted becoming a thing talked
about in the seventies andnineties.
Right.
So if you don't know what itis, then you stay in it.
And that's what happens now.
And that's part of why I wrotethis book is to be like, look,
let's help people not do this.
Yeah.
So using a couple, an oldcouple, it's just not a good
(14:34):
example.
Jacob (14:35):
And there's so much nuance.
You don't know what that couplewent through.
And like you said, Differentmindsets, different times.
You couldn't even go to yourfriends back then.
And as you outlined in parts ofthe book, which I won't digress
into now, even in your case,trying to go to friends was
pretty tough in some of theresponses you got.
And I wanted to quote anotherpart of your book, which was the
(15:00):
most horrendous part.
It said, To this day, yearslater, I still do not have any
sort of explanation, but nothingwould excuse what he did.
And then you say,unfortunately, even witnessing
(15:20):
this violence did not make meleave.
This is where I tried tounderstand his manipulative
behaviors so I can explain why Istill didn't leave at this
point and why it is normal forsurvivors not to leave after
horrendous violence.
So I wanted to ask you, And ifsomeone's listening that may
(15:42):
have a lot of these obviouswarning signs, like that event I
just quoted from the book, oreven more subtle ones, what are
some things that they should andshould not do?
And the same question forfriends that suspect abuse.
What should they do and not do?
Yeah.
Kate (16:01):
Okay.
Well, if you are suspectingthat you're in it, then this
will always be my answer.
Call the National DomesticViolence Hotline.
They are going to, A, give youhelp, B, connect you to your
local place.
Because the way that domesticviolence advocacy agencies are
(16:25):
funded is through local taxes.
So you can only get help fromthe one that is in your area.
So you call the NAPA.
And you can text them.
You can also use their website.
They will help you get that,like, personalized help that you
need because every situation isgoing to be very different.
Also, on their website, theyhave a safety plan.
(16:47):
And you can go and create yourown safety plan.
A safety plan and the survivorfollowing their own instincts is
paramount importance.
When a person tries to leave isthe highest time that...
highest possibility of thembeing murdered yeah and it's
(17:08):
like oh did i want to come outand say oh my gosh someone could
be murdered but yes because itreally does happen when we look
at these horrific stories in thenews of somebody um you know
killed their wife and then thekids and you know that's
domestic violence right thosestories are domestic violence so
(17:29):
when a person is trying toleave, they really do have to be
very cautious with their safetyplan and get the help of the
hotline, of the agency, ofsomebody who really knows how to
help you look at all thesedifferent aspects to make the
safest plan for yourself.
You want to try and leave whenthe person is not there.
(17:52):
Like in my case, we dropped himoff at work and then I left the
States.
Jacob (17:58):
I want to ask you about that in a moment too.
So it sounds like whensomeone's ready to leave, they
need to carefully plan.
It sounds like unless there'simmediate danger, but if they
have the time,
Kate (18:12):
if there's immediate danger, like, you know, each
person's going to have to figurethat out for themselves, but
there could be immediate dangerof like, say something bad on
like a level eight out of 10.
And then you leave becauseimmediately because of that
level eight danger and then youcome back you're at a 10 you're
(18:34):
dead you you're not going backfor anything
Jacob (18:39):
okay so you need to be ready to make that gone
Kate (18:42):
gone yeah yeah so if you are feeling a sense of a three
out of 10 start gettingresources start considering what
you
Jacob (18:54):
have
Kate (18:55):
yeah yeah get some of your own money that you can like if
your bank accounts are Thankgoodness I never merged my bank
accounts with him.
So hopefully have your ownmoney in a bank account.
I've seen where people havedone things like this woman, so
smart.
She would go to the grocerystore and get cash back and then
(19:19):
it would just look like agrocery store transaction
because some people will trackall of that.
And then she hid money in hertampons box.
Jacob (19:30):
Wow.
I can't believe these stories Imean gosh I was terrifying
Kate (19:36):
yeah
Jacob (19:37):
yeah and for friends in these situations oh sorry I cut
you off
Kate (19:41):
oh no it's okay I was gonna say um you know it doesn't
it may not be that way foreverybody right the different
there's so many different typesof abuse it may not be financial
abuse or whatever but that'swhere getting the help from a
person who specializes in thisis going to help you to figure
it out you also want to have a ago bag.
(20:01):
And just tell the person thatthis is in case of, well, it
depends where you live.
In Seattle, it's an earthquake.
When I was living in Florida, Iwould say a go bag for a
hurricane.
In the desert, I don't knowwhat your big land.
But just a natural disaster gobag.
(20:24):
Yeah.
Jacob (20:25):
Okay.
And that actually segues intowhat I was going to quote next
from your book, which was thepart where you left, which in my
mind was one of the mostterrifying parts of it.
I believe it was in chapter 18.
You say, quote, I pinched hisarms with my nails as tightly as
(20:47):
I could.
And then after he yelled, yougrabbed or it says you grabbed
my I'm butchering this.
I'm sorry.
I grabbed my overnight bag andlaptop and ran out the door.
faster than I'd ever runbefore.
And shortly after, you know,there was, there was a couple of
(21:08):
events that transpired and I'mjumping way ahead to chapter 34,
which is where you actuallyfully left.
And it says, yes, wait,
Kate (21:17):
can let me pause there for a second.
Yeah.
That chapter 18.
Yeah.
The book goes to, I think 34 or35 chapters, something like
that.
So 18, we're still halfwaythrough and I left not being
prepared and I went back to him.
because I wasn't prepared,right?
So like that also highlights,it's really important to be
(21:37):
really ready to go.
So you're not going back going,okay, well, what now with my
life?
How do I do this?
Yeah, okay, go ahead.
Jacob (21:47):
Sorry.
Yeah, no, that's veryimportant.
Because these two quotes Ipulled are actually far apart in
the book 18 to 34.
And the first one I read, likeyou said, you went back to him.
And do you feel that since youdidn't have the plan, obviously
things got much worse because ofthat.
It caused more problems.
I
Kate (22:06):
think there was a pretty good honeymoon period for a
while.
Jacob (22:13):
So it was more of that cycle.
Kate (22:15):
He was really trying to make things feel really, really
nice for quite some time.
But then the next time thatthere was an event was really
quite brutal.
And so it's like this builduphad been happening underneath
him that he hid really well
Jacob (22:34):
not to mention you have all that history yeah the
Kate (22:36):
trauma bond plays into the cycle of violence yeah so the
trauma bond is what is keepingthe person and then every time
the cycle of violence completesthen it's a more strong trauma
bond so both
Jacob (22:51):
and then in chapter 34 you say quote I needed to assure
my safety before I helped himand that's in reference to
making sure he had the car andthings like that.
And then it says for once, orI'm sorry, we all got into
Lisa's car and then she and Iacted like everything was fine
(23:12):
and it was a normal day.
And then you say, I began tofeel an overwhelming sense of
calm inside me.
I almost even started to feelhappy and confident.
I wanted to ask you in regardsto that, in regards to your exit
plan, What made you feel safeenough to finally act that time
(23:35):
to make it happen?
Kate (23:37):
Well, two main things.
One, I was really fortunatethat my sister was there.
So basically like another eventhad occurred that my sister was
there to support me at four andshe was, you know, talking with
me right that same night andinto the next morning about
(23:58):
like, are you sure you don'twant to leave?
And I'm like, well, my wholelife is here.
year like I really couldn'tfigure it out what it would look
like to leave and then hegaslit me and I did not know
what gaslighting was I had neverheard the term I had no idea
what but I I had thisconversation with him or this
(24:19):
argument with him and I was likefinding my voice and starting
to stand up to him and he justkept lying he just kept being
like oh no that didn't happenand I'm like what what do you
mean that didn't happen I knowwhat happened?
So I go and I tell my sisterthis and she's like, oh, that's
gaslighting.
And I was like, what's that?
And she just explains to me.
And I was like, oh my God, howlong has he been?
(24:43):
He's, he's been doing this fora long time,
Jacob (24:45):
right?
Kate (24:46):
This is not the first time he gaslit me.
Oh my God.
And just started to click.
And I was like, oh, he's alwaysgoing to gaslight me.
He's never going to change.
This is, this is how he hasbeen.
Jacob (24:59):
Yeah.
Kate (25:01):
I got to go.
Jacob (25:01):
And that was it.
You knew.
Yeah.
For sure.
Kate (25:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I didn't know about theimminent dangers of like, you
know, what can happen of thepossibilities of murder at that
point.
But my sister had told me like,you can go back if you want.
And that did give me some calmand peace.
But now that like, you know,I'm a therapist experienced in
(25:28):
helping people with this, Iwould not say you can go back if
you want.
I think it's very, verydangerous to go back.
Um, but having my sister there,I think was the big thing.
And that she, she was like,yeah, this is what gaslighting
is.
I was like, holy.
Jacob (25:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It seemed like in the book whenyou started to connect with
your family and finally feelcomfortable opening up to them
about a lot of these things, itreally helped, um, helped with
your confidence in making thisdecision would you say that's
fair to say
Kate (26:04):
yes absolutely and for a long time I didn't feel like I
could talk to my family but thenit got to a point where it was
so bad that I was like I think Ihave to because he would like
the isolation and that we movedfrom the northwest to Vegas but
that was also partly due to the2009 economy and But then
(26:30):
isolation in that if I was onthe phone with friends and
family, he'd always be like, oh,who are you talking to?
Oh, like, when are we going tohang out?
And I'm like, you know, I seeyou all the time.
Let me talk to my family forlike an hour or whatever, right?
So I just didn't talk toeverybody as much as I wish I
would have.
And if I had, you know, and Idid keep all my friendships,
(26:54):
which is amazing.
But had I been having regularconversations about like, oh, he
did X, Then I would have hadmore feedback of like, Hey,
that's not okay.
Jacob (27:04):
Yeah.
Kate (27:06):
And then I had all of you guys as friends, but I also
didn't want, he didn't want meto tell anybody about anything.
And I didn't want to mess upthe, like when I hung out with
you and well, Anna and the book,I wanted that to be like, that
(27:29):
was my calm happy time you knowI didn't want to think about all
the other stuff
Jacob (27:33):
I'm sure it brings it up for you to to the surface when
you have to explain it toeveryone I think you mentioned
that during the process when youwere leaving like it was you
didn't want to just telleveryone right away of course
because that's a lot and itchanges the way people look at
you I'm sure at least in yourown mind you know on this topic
(27:55):
can we myth bust the just justleave him idea a little bit can
we talk about that I mean I'msure that's a pretty common
phrase why don't you just leavehim you know like oh yeah it's
ridiculous
Kate (28:12):
I would never do that I would just leave him like
Jacob (28:14):
yeah
Kate (28:15):
bitch you don't know like
Jacob (28:19):
you
Kate (28:19):
know Yeah.
So it's a culmination of thethings that we've talked about
so far, right?
So it is the emotional abuse.
It's the trauma bond.
It's the cycle of violence.
All of these things are actingin tandem to strengthen the
relationship and break down theself-esteem.
(28:40):
So we can call that myth bustedthen.
Yes.
And you layer on the isolationwhere you aren't feeling safe to
talk to other people about it.
So then you're just, and layeron the gaslighting.
So then you're just trying tomake sense of stuff in your own
head and none of it makes anysense.
Jacob (28:57):
Yeah.
I remember the gaslightingabout the tripping quote unquote
incident.
And I think for you, was thatin terms of physicality kind of
a final straw or can you talkabout that a little bit?
Yeah.
Kate (29:20):
In physicality, yes, because it was the third time
that I, like, third big thingthat I thought of happening,
even though technically it wasthe fourth, but I'd forgotten
about the very first one on thewedding night.
But it was more thegaslighting.
(29:41):
Because he's like, you tripped.
You must have felt, you, like,I wouldn't have pushed you.
And I'm like, I know.
that your hands wereoutstretched toward me.
I watched your hands stretchout to me and push me.
Jacob (29:58):
Yeah.
Kate (29:59):
You can't make me not believe that.
Jacob (30:02):
Change reality.
Kate (30:04):
Yeah.
And I think that he had beentrying to change my reality for
a really long time.
Jacob (30:09):
And not just you, but everybody.
I remember in that incident,oh, she drank too much.
You know, she slipped.
And then hurtful nicknames likeintoxicated.
hate and all that you know likeit was unbelievable um and i
think you you pointed out howsome friends thought that that
was the reality um in the bookwho i won't point out but it's
(30:34):
amazing how that gaslightingcannot just be contained in
between you two but you knowtrying to explain it to everyone
it's like you know the oldcliche when a woman's wearing
glasses and she has like thelittle oh i slipped and fell or
something you know i mean it waslike oh it was literal in your
case, you know, I slipped andfell.
It's like, no, she didn't.
(30:55):
No,
Kate (30:55):
no.
Is that what, yeah.
Like, what do you remember fromthat time when I, when I left?
Is that, that's what peoplewere saying?
Jacob (31:04):
It was, uh, it was obviously a long time ago.
And, and from my recollection,that was kind of the general
vibe.
I was one of those that I waslike, I, you know, this is
between you guys type thing.
Um, looking back though, I wishthat and this is something that
your book really does is itbrings awareness.
(31:26):
That's what I try to do on thispodcast is help people be more
mindful, bring more awarenessinto their life.
And the warning signs and thesered flags that you talk about
are very important.
So even, you know, to peoplewho think that they're not in an
abusive relationship now or maynot be, I think there's a lot
to get out of this book becauseof what it teaches you to look
(31:48):
for in relationships, even forFor me, as a husband, it kind of
made me evaluate myself and,oh, have I ever done any of
these before?
I might have gotten close.
I mean, to some degree, I thinkeverybody makes mistakes, of
course, and manipulation is partof being human.
(32:09):
But I think it's when we noticeor become mindful that we are,
we need to make changes.
But to your question, yeah, Ithink that was the general vibe
that was being pushed is not tobe make a pun there is that you
had tripped because of that andsomething was off you know I
(32:31):
think with all of us and the wayit was perceived with that but
Kate (32:36):
right right but like that's the story that Jason
wanted to tell people was sure Itripped how does that make
sense that then I just left andnever came back after
Jacob (32:48):
that I think people started to Yeah.
But the aftermath was whatreally touched my heart.
I believe it was chapter 34,you say, quote, after I had
lived with an abuser for fiveyears, I had forgotten what it
(33:08):
felt like to be able to count onpeople that I loved because he
showed me that I could not.
My father and stepmother alsoshowed me they were there for
me.
As did my friends and otherfamily members.
Abuse had made me forget.
But leaving reminded me thatlove is not supposed to strip
(33:31):
you of safety.
It's supposed to restore it.
To me, that really hit me inthe feels when I read that.
And I just wanted to ask you,what was the aftermath like when
your family was justsurrounding you with love?
And what are green flags thatyou talk about that you cherish
now?
Kate (33:50):
Yeah.
Well, right after, yeah, I wentto my mom and stepdad's house,
and then my dad and stepmom andsaw my friends.
You know, everyone was around,but I was in shock.
I did not move for two weeks.
I was just in literal, like, Islept on the couch.
My mom's dog, who's no longerwith us, but our mom's dog,
(34:13):
Slider, was this big goldenretriever who would cuddle with
me on the couch.
Okay.
It was very sweet.
So I stayed in shock until Icalled the National Domestic
Violence Hotline.
And I talked with them.
And I was like, well, here's alittle bit of what happened.
(34:37):
And I just, I don't know how amI supposed to ever talk to him
again.
And the person on the phonesaid, you don't.
I was like, what?
She was like, you don't haveto.
have to talk to him ever againif you don't want to.
And I was like, oh, okay then.
And I started coming out ofshock.
Jacob (35:00):
Wow.
Just from the realization thatyou didn't have to speak to him
again, you felt just like thatimmediately better.
I mean, no,
Kate (35:10):
it's very like, yeah, I'm healed.
No, no, no, not like that.
Jacob (35:15):
But you felt a wave of relief that you didn't have to
actually speak to him
Kate (35:21):
I felt snapped out of the shock I felt like I could come
in to a sense of safety in mybody because I didn't have a
sense of safety in my body onceI like that's part of the shock
right the shock was okay I lefthim but what like what now like
(35:41):
we're married we have a houselike what what happens now and I
I just thought I was gonna haveto reconcile something things
with him and I couldn't makesense of how that would look
knowing how dangerous he was andknowing how much he gaslights
like emotionally dangerous andso the the shock was this
(36:03):
feeling of paralysis on one handI've left on the other hand I
might have to speak to him againand be in that world again and
once I learned that I did nothave to like yes I spoke to
through lawyers um I didn't haveto talk to him again then I I
was able to come out of my shockbecause I was not in the
(36:26):
paralysis of floating betweenworlds.
I was like, oh, I can feel safeenough that I can start to find
my voice and start to ask forhelp and get the help that I
need.
Jacob (36:37):
Right.
It's almost as if, correct meif I'm wrong here, but your
mind, after the gaslighting, youwere in fear that that it would
happen again, but your body waskind of telling you something
was wrong this whole time,right?
Like you were...
Like...
(36:57):
the stories wanted to makesense in your mind that he was
telling you, but your body wastelling you something else,
perhaps, your subconscious,whatever you want to call it,
like, you need to get out ofhere.
And then knowing that momentyou realized you didn't have to
talk to him ever again, itsounds like a big relief.
I mean, were you worried thatwhen you talked to him again,
(37:19):
he'd try to talk you back intocoming home, things like that?
Yeah,
Kate (37:23):
and then I was like, if he could have done that to me, if
he could have...
you know, push me downstairsand told me that he didn't, what
else would he do?
So there was a part of my bodythat even though I didn't have
all the statistics on chance ofbeing murdered, there was a part
of me that knew that that couldhave been a thing.
Jacob (37:47):
Or with Mary, you talked about his lack of remorse about
it.
Yeah.
I mean, that was...
Kate (37:53):
Yeah.
Jacob (37:55):
Joking about it even.
Kate (37:57):
Yeah.
Jacob (37:59):
So I wanted to ask you about chapter 18 in your book.
You mentioned, quote, now Itake a minimum of a few minutes
each day to practicemindfulness.
Mindfulness is really justbeing present, acknowledging
what is right in front of you,and letting your thoughts about
the past and future slip away.
(38:19):
Practicing mindfulness givesour brain a chance to rest and
pause, which allows our brainsto organize our thoughts and
process everything so we canmake better decisions moving
forward.
But I didn't have a mindfulnesspractice back then.
I just kept trudging forward,no matter what life threw at me.
And I wanted to ask from, youknow, a therapist perspective or
(38:41):
your own personal experience,what kind of practices you
recommend?
I talk about mindfulness a lotin this podcast, so a lot of my
listeners would be curious, youknow, what does a therapist,
especially in your niche with,you know, the people you help,
what kind of practices do yourecommend and partake in
yourself?
Kate (38:59):
Oh, Um...
I honestly, there is not oneanswer to that.
It is so individualized.
It is whatever makes sense foryou.
What I do personally, and Ihave the luxury of setting my
own schedule, so I can start myworkday at 10 a.m.
(39:21):
and I can wake up at 8 and haveplenty of time in the morning,
right?
But it depends on what you doyou.
But I start my day with coffeeby the window and And sometimes
I will be reading a book or Iwill be doing a crossword or
maybe pulling some tarot cards.
But I'll just stare out thewindow a lot.
Jacob (39:46):
It doesn't need to be the full lotus.
Oh,
Kate (39:50):
my gosh.
No, no.
And also just a note there thatwhen you look at the window in
the morning and see anysunshine, even here in Seattle
where it's often gray, there'sstill some sunshine that pokes
through.
Right.
That actually helps to bring alittle cortisol and it'll help
your brain wake up a little bitmore.
So that's my mindfulnesspractice.
(40:13):
And when I finish my work day,I just sit.
I just sit and let everythingjust leave my mind.
Now, what I do want to say iswithin those last, with the
first few years after leaving anabusive relationship your brain
(40:34):
will find stillness to bepretty scary because when you
have stillness some memories aregoing to float up and things
that you weren't expecting willfloat up so I actually do not
recommend it for when you'refirst leaving because it's not
going to feel safe and good inyour body but what I do
recommend is and so there'smeditation is like the like just
(40:57):
sit with nothing right and thenthere's mindfulness which is
doing something so mymindfulness in the morning My
morning is a little bit of both.
But if I'm reading a book ordoing a crossword, my brain can
only do that thing, right?
It can only take in the wordsof the book or it can only fill
out the crossword puzzleanswers.
(41:17):
It's just giving your brainsomething to make it take up all
the space.
Yeah, but like in a non-urgentmatter.
And so it might be a Sudoku orit might be the act of making
your tea or making your coffee.
It's basically a time to turnoff the background noise.
Jacob (41:40):
Yes.
That's beautiful, Kate.
I really like that.
And when I read that in thebook, I was really touched
because before I even read thatpart, I had this reflection that
your entire book is reallybringing awareness.
Like you say, warning signs,you know, being aware because
the signs are there whether yousee them or not.
(42:01):
And your book brings awarenessto that, which is invaluable.
Like I said, even earlier, evento myself, I don't consider
myself abusive, but it's likeeveryone can get something out
of this book.
It can make them double checkthemselves.
It's really powerful.
And I have to commend you forthat.
And the mindfulness bit wasjust awesome when I read that.
(42:22):
Oh, thank
Kate (42:24):
you.
And I want to speak to thatjust briefly.
Like, no, Jake, you are notabusive.
We know this.
Okay.
This is without a doubt factualum but like yeah but because he
mentioned it earlier earliertoo where you're like well i saw
i see that i could do thesethings yeah i see things that i
can do too right i also have alot of humility in the book
(42:46):
where i'm like well yeah i alsowasn't perfect here um and um
Jacob (42:52):
You did that really well in the book.
Kate (42:55):
Thanks.
You're very honest.
When we're determining if arelationship is abusive or not
or toxic or not, whatever wordchoice you want to have there,
we are looking at an overallpower dynamic.
Is the power shared between thecouple or does one person have
(43:17):
more power?
What that power can look likecan be very different.
People can be in charge of youknow my partner right now he is
changing the fog light on thecar okay you know but I do all
the laundry and like that's fineright like whatever the power
is it's it's equal in its ownway then you know you have a
(43:38):
healthy relationship so you wantto look at that and you want to
look at how do you feel how doeach of you feel happy safe yeah
if you have that then you'regood if you don't feel happy and
safe then that's when you needto look at and evaluate
Jacob (43:59):
good stuff and I like what you said too about
mindfulness like you know becareful about how fast you jump
into it it's good to be awarebut diving straight into your
innermost psyche abouteverything you're experiencing
can be really rough so bemindful of the warning signs but
be mindful of how you're youknow how fast you surface things
as well don't overload yourself
Kate (44:22):
Yeah, and that's where like talking about it
externally, like with a friendor family member or domestic
violence advocacy agency, peoplethat work there, like talking
about it with someone else issafer, because you can
emotionally regulate with thatperson instead of being all
alone in your own
Jacob (44:39):
brain.
might be in this situation nowas far as tangible things to do.
Like you mentioned callingshelters and hotline resources.
(45:01):
Are there specific, should wedirect them to the description
box or is there something we cantell them over the air right
now?
Kate (45:08):
Yes.
So National Domestic ViolenceHotline, they have a phone
number, they have a text, theyhave a chat on their website.
Get a hold of them and theywill
Jacob (45:22):
help you get to that.
Oh, sorry.
I cut you off.
I think I took it from yourbook.
Is it 800-799-SAFE, I believe?
Kate (45:30):
Yes.
Yes.
Jacob (45:31):
Okay.
And the hotline.org, I believe.
We'll put that in thedescription, too.
Kate (45:36):
Yes.
Yes.
Please do.
Yes.
Put that in there.
They are going to be your firststep, even if you're not sure.
Even if you're like, I don'tknow if this is domestic
violence or not.
Just start there.
They are going to help you toget the right resources to know
what to do next and then alsotry and talk to yeah and try and
talk to your friends and familyor if you've been so isolated
(45:59):
that you don't have friends andfamily try and talk to anyone
Jacob (46:04):
just somebody
Kate (46:04):
anyone that is an acquaintance someone you kind of
know try and speak with someoneabout it because keeping it all
inside your head is where it'sthe most confusing um so gotta
get get the words out
Jacob (46:21):
absolutely get some other perspective And on that note,
there was a quote I had.
I know we're moving towards thefinish line here, but I wanted
to read this last quote.
It's pretty short.
It's very to the point.
I believe it's in your finalepilogue.
You say, quote, the bottom lineis that the person's life is
more important than yourrelationship with them.
(46:43):
It is an issue of safety overtrust.
I think that hits it right onthe head.
Reach out.
don't uh you're not going tohave a relationship if you don't
have your life right i mean
Kate (46:57):
yes
Jacob (47:00):
yes
Kate (47:00):
absolutely that is i put that in there for the people who
know someone who might be in arelationship and are like well i
don't want to say somethingbecause i don't want to rock the
boat say something saysomething hey i noticed this i'm
here for you don't tell themyou have to leave because that
might not be the right answerfor them but i noticed this and
(47:22):
i here for you.
Jacob (47:24):
Awesome.
Well, Kate, this has beenawesome.
I really appreciate you takingnot only your time, but having
the courage to write this book,to talk about this.
I know you've been on severalpodcasts promoting the book, and
it couldn't have been easy towrite the book, much less talk
about it.
So thank you for having thecourage and doing this.
(47:45):
You go back in time.
Can you imagine us you know,back in 2010, thinking someday
I'll have a podcast.
I'll be interviewing you aboutthis topic.
where we were I
Kate (48:02):
feel like I could have seen if you're like I'm gonna
have a podcast to talk about theimportance of caring for the
environment I would have beenlike yeah like that I could that
I could predict yeah but notnot this yeah
Jacob (48:14):
doing this with you yeah it's just it's been great it's
been great reconnecting with youit's been healing for me as
well I mean this this wholething has been awesome and do
you want to let our listenersknow where they can find you and
where they can pre-order thebook
Kate (48:30):
yeah yeah thank you um yeah this has been so good so
good to speak with you um yes soum you can find um find me and
the book everything is at myname katemageau.com
k-a-t-e-m-a-g-e-a-u and then youcan find a link to it there but
it's on amazon and then it'llalso be um available anywhere
(48:53):
books are sold i'm putting it onamazon um oh my god why did i
just forgot the name of it,Amazon Kindle Unlimited.
So if you have that, you canread it for free, but then that
means that the e-books are justgoing to hopefully be at
libraries.
You can request it to be atyour library, and the e-book
will be on Amazon, and then youcan order the print book
(49:15):
anywhere books are sold.
Jacob (49:17):
Awesome.
I'll put links in thedescription, too, so that people
can find it easily, and ofcourse, I highly recommend it.
It is an incredible read, andthis has been a lot of fun thank
you
Kate (49:30):
thank you oh and i also want to add i am available for
um coaching if you want to writeyour own memoir i am going to
be setting up a program for thatsoon so if you're like if
you're inspired to write yourown book like this then i would
love to help you through that
Jacob (49:46):
that's so awesome i didn't know you were doing that
as well very cool
Kate (49:49):
i'm always doing something
Jacob (49:51):
you're just doing all kinds of fun stuff that's how
you've always been All right,Kate.
Well, thank you again.
I love you.
And this has been awesome.
Kate (50:01):
Love you too, Jake.
Jacob (50:06):
All right, everyone.
Well, that wraps up ourconversation.
I want to say a huge thanks toKate for her courage and
vulnerability for being willingto expose a very vulnerable part
of her life like this, hercourage and openness to share
this story.
Absolutely incredible.
Before we sign off, I will bereading her Survivors Bill of
(50:28):
Rights, which appears at the endof her book.
And it's something thatsurvivors read together at the
end of every support group.
And Kate Key it close as adaily reminder.
Before I read that though, I dowant to remind you all that
Rose Colored Glasses, the bookwill be out on October 2nd, one
week after this episode airs.
And if anyone listening feelsthat they are in a situation
(50:52):
that we've been talking about ordescribing, please do not
hesitate to call that domesticviolence hotline.
The number is 800-799-SAFE.
That's 799-SAFE.
Or you can go tothehotline.org.
And now as we close, I want toread Kate Survivor's Bill of
(51:13):
Rights.
So my Bill of Rights.
I have the right to be me.
I have the right to put myselffirst.
I have the right to be safe.
I have the right to love and beloved.
(51:34):
I have the right to be treatedwith respect.
I have the right to be human,not perfect.
I have the right to be angryand protest if I am being
treated unfairly or abusively byanyone.
I have the right to my ownprivacy.
(51:56):
I have the right to my ownopinions, to express them and to
be taken seriously.
I have the right to earn andcontrol my own money.
I have the right to askquestions about anything that
affects my life.
I have the right to makedecisions that affect me.
(52:17):
I have the right to grow andchange, and that includes my
mind.
I have the right to say no.
I have the right to makemistakes.
I have the right not to beresponsible for other adults'
(52:38):
problems.
I have the right not to beliked by everyone.
And I have the right to controlmy own life and to change it if
I am not happy with it as itis.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Standing
Nowhere podcast.
This is your host, JacobBuehler.
It's a pleasure to be back withyou.
Today is episode 14, and I havea very special guest, Kate
Mageau, on the podcast.
She's a therapist, an author,and a toxic relationship
survivor.
We're going to be talking abouther new upcoming book called
Rose-Colored Glasses, whichreleases on October 2nd of this
(00:23):
year, one week after thisepisode airs.
And the book tells her powerfulstory of surviving intimate
partner violence, and afterevery chapter, she shares
reflections that unpack thepsychology of abuse and healing.
Our lives were actuallyintertwined back then, and I
even appear in her story underthe pseudonym of John.
(00:43):
I do want to give you a headsup, though, for listeners.
This episode will containdiscussions of intimate partner
violence and abuse, so pleasetake care as you listen.
Now let's jump into theconversation.
Kate, do you want to talk alittle bit, just kind of a
(01:11):
little brief overview of whatthe book touches on here?
Kate (01:14):
Yeah, yes.
Thanks, Jake, for having me.
I'm very excited for this.
So Rose-Colored Glasses is mystory as a memoir of what it was
like for me to be in a toxicrelationship and how I got out
of it.
And then after finishingwriting the story, a couple
years later, once I went tograduate school and became a
(01:36):
therapist, I went back and Iwrote...
the explanations ofpsychologically what was
happening so that when you readthe story, you're immersed in
the story, but you're alsolearning the mechanism so you
know what happens, why ithappened, why people stay, how
to notice warning signs, how tosafely get out.
(02:00):
Yeah, so it's a healing tool.
Jacob (02:04):
Absolutely.
Would you describe it almost asan adventure romance novel?
Kate (02:08):
thank you so much for saying that because yes it is
like a it is a story on a toxicrelationship or domestic
violence but i wanted to reallycapture the good parts too and
like i i kind of felt like it'slike i'm i'm writing a rom-com
except for there's emotionalabuse in it um yeah because that
(02:29):
is real life right in real lifelike there's so many people
will say things like well iwould never be in a Yeah,
Jacob (02:43):
absolutely.
I was in the backseat of thecar.
(03:09):
There was a time when Jasonwanted you to find like a casino
we wanted to go to on his GPSon his phone, and you couldn't
find it fast enough.
And he did like this littlebackhand to your cheek, kind of
like he was joking, but notjoking.
And I remember the look on yourface was just like shock and
(03:31):
awe, like, wow.
And that leads me into my firstquestion really about this book
is, What were some of the earlybehaviors that you may have
either excused or overlookedthen, but you recognize now as
abuse?
Kate (03:53):
Yeah, well, yeah, when we were, you and I were messaging a
few days ago or however, well,last week or something.
And you told me about thatmemory and I did not remember it
until you mentioned it.
And I may have been very inshock and awe at that moment,
(04:13):
but I also had somewhatnormalized it or else I would
have remembered it, right?
It didn't make it into thebook.
It didn't make it into mycurrent memory because the brain
really can't handle all thehard memories.
That's one thing.
But that is an example ofsomething that I must have
(04:35):
excused at that moment to belike, oh, okay, this is just how
things are Yeah.
Um, where I think, um, someother examples would be his
quote unquote teasing.
Like he was constantly puttingme down, but framing it as a
joke.
Jacob (04:53):
Right.
I remember.
Kate (04:55):
And I think that was like the big thing where it was like,
Oh no, you're just being toosensitive.
If you find this to like, yeah.
If a person saying you're justbeing too sensitive, that is,
that's minimizing.
And that is actually a, um, aform of emotional abuse, right?
And so it's kind of themechanism of how it works is
that he minimized my experiencesto then prioritize his
(05:19):
experiences.
There's just so many ways Icould go into this.
Jacob (05:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I remember from myperspective, I was just getting
to know you guys as well.
And I didn't know what tothink.
But I wanted to jump forward alittle bit with a part of your
book uh that i wanted to readout if that's okay it was on
your wedding night
Kate (05:45):
yeah
Jacob (05:46):
quote he slapped me across the face i let out a
shriek and began to sob what didyou just do did you really just
hit me and then you say foryears after this i felt that i
let this happen to me or that icaused it in some way and after
moments like that what did whatdid self blame look like for you
(06:11):
and how did it help shape yourchoices going forward because I
remember you talked about thatin the book like it was a
definite period of time whereyou sort of I don't know did you
blame yourself for that
Kate (06:25):
yeah oh that's such a powerful question and powerful
moment very pivotal moment inthe story yeah so it was our
wedding night and I was tootired we had we both had drinks
so much.
We were pretty drunk.
And I was just too drunk andtired to have sex and to...
(06:46):
What's the word?
Consummate.
Consummate.
Thank you.
Consummate the marriage.
And that's when he hit me.
And so that was how it wasframed.
He framed it as, you didn't doX, so I did Y.
And that's how it began in myhead.
(07:12):
And then I actually push outthat memory after that day.
Um, you know, he apologized, itwas so traumatic and we are
about to get on the plane to goon our honeymoon like that next
day.
And so it's like, what do I,what do I do now?
Like, you know, um,
Jacob (07:35):
Especially after all the planning you did for the
wedding.
I remember not only Being thereand remembering you do it, but
reading it again in your book, Ican only imagine.
And then, you know, having anythoughts of blaming yourself.
Kate (07:48):
Right, right.
But that was how he phrased it,right?
He phrased so much like, oh,this is my fault for things.
And so I just, you know, itdidn't start that way.
But over time, that way ofthinking really does get into
your head.
And so that's the self-talk oflike, okay, what can I do
differently to where thisdoesn't happen again?
(08:08):
And how do I keep him happy?
How do I make sure that hedoesn't like that?
I don't mess up.
Jacob (08:15):
Right.
Kate (08:16):
And yeah, that gets a little bit into the concept of
moving the goalpost, which issomething abusers will do.
It's like nothing can ever begood enough.
So as much as I kept saying,like, I'm just going to try and
make him happy.
I'm going to try and not, notupset him.
Uh, it's not possible.
It's just literally notpossible in an abusive
(08:38):
relationship.
You know, matter how hard youtry and so you end up kind of
getting the external abuseemotional abuse of beating
yourself and then you're beingbeaten up emotionally and then
you're beating yourself upemotionally for for not doing
the things exactly the way thatlike you had wanted to and then
(08:58):
also you're kind of like end uppre beating yourself up like
okay so if I don't do this andhe'll be upset that I didn't do
this so therefore you know Ihave to do it and oh I can't
find the motivation to do thisand so what's wrong with me okay
I gotta just make sure and solike all that self-talk goes on
(09:19):
and on in your head and that'sjust one of the biggest reasons
why it's so hard to leave isbecause the self-esteem gets so
eroded in such a it's like sosubtle as it as it happens and
as I
Jacob (09:34):
guess like you're walking on eggshells kind
Kate (09:37):
of yeah yeah yeah
Jacob (09:39):
And that leads me into my next question, which it comes
from...
I have my notes here.
It was in the 16th chapterwhere you talk about the trauma
bond.
Can you talk about how abuserscreate almost like a crisis and
(10:02):
then heal it?
And what does living in thatcycle feel like?
Kate (10:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So it is...
is literally a cycle it'scalled the cycle of violence and
it starts out with tensionbuilding there's lots of
different if you google anyonecan google cycle of violence and
you'll see like four or fivedifferent iterations of it but
the most basic level it is threesteps tension building so
building up to the event andthen there's the event of
(10:30):
whatever type of abuse it is andthen there's the honeymoon
period and so the tensionbuilding is that walking on
eggshells don't know when thenext blow up is going to be.
I don't know when the nextevent is going to be.
I'm going to try and doeverything perfectly.
I can't.
Well, now the goalpost keepsgetting moved.
The goalpost has moved againand I'm just not going to be
able to live to that example orbe the way he wants me to be.
(10:56):
Abuse happens.
Then he makes up and thenapologizes or somewhat.
He was never good atapologizing.
But you the couple makes up andthen you're like okay we're
closer together because we andthere's this feeling of we've
survived a thing together
Jacob (11:16):
and
Kate (11:18):
so each time the cycle happens it's a trauma bond that
is getting you closer and closerbut the other thing that's
really important to know andwhat's really scary about it is
that the cycle at first it canbe like a whole year right like
the whole like first year we'retogether like did nothing happen
(11:39):
until that like a year and thenum and maybe even the first one
was like a year and a half intobeing together um and then the
next one was like a year laterand the next one was like eight
or nine months later ten monthslater or something like that but
every time it it startshappening more and more
(11:59):
frequently and more intensely soevery time a cycle completes
you are in more and more dangerof being hurt
Jacob (12:07):
hmm yeah and And like you said, there's, there's spaces
in between and we're, um,obviously, um, you and I both
know, of course, we're, I'mjumping the highlights here of
the book, but they're like youdescribe in the book, there was
wonderful periods where you haveimmense love for this person.
I had as a friend, a plutonicfriend, immense love for, for
(12:29):
Jason as well.
He was one of the best friendsI ever had.
And all of this was so, um,there's not even a word It's
just beyond shocking.
And I can only imagine whatthat cycle must have been like
to have that love for him thatintensifies more and more,
especially as you go throughthese cycles.
Kate (12:49):
Yeah.
I mean, that's where it'sromanticized, right?
It's like we look at theseother couples from previous
generations that stay togetherfor so long.
But like, look, people weren'ttalking about domestic violence
then.
People weren't talking aboutdomestic violence.
Even when I left this 10 yearsago, it was not something that
(13:09):
we talked about in society sogoing back generations and
generations and we're like ohbut my grandparents stayed
together forever yeah because noone spoke up because they
didn't know that they like andalso women weren't even allowed
to have credit cards until the70s or vote into the 20s right
(13:30):
like if we look at like yesolder couples stay together
longer but I don't believethat's because they just learned
how to make up better becausethey didn't have the
opportunities to be apart.
And no-fault divorce was alsoin the 70s, right?
(13:51):
They can't just, even thoughabuse is not a no-fault divorce,
but having the option to easilydivorce, having the option to
get a credit card, to get ahome.
I think getting a mortgage forwomen was not until the 80s or
90s.
I mean, people did not havethe...
the education to understandwhat domestic violence was
(14:12):
because it wasn't spoken aboutor talked about.
And we, and it even reallystarted becoming a thing talked
about in the seventies andnineties.
Right.
So if you don't know what itis, then you stay in it.
And that's what happens now.
And that's part of why I wrotethis book is to be like, look,
let's help people not do this.
Yeah.
So using a couple, an oldcouple, it's just not a good
(14:34):
example.
Jacob (14:35):
And there's so much nuance.
You don't know what that couplewent through.
And like you said, Differentmindsets, different times.
You couldn't even go to yourfriends back then.
And as you outlined in parts ofthe book, which I won't digress
into now, even in your case,trying to go to friends was
pretty tough in some of theresponses you got.
And I wanted to quote anotherpart of your book, which was the
(15:00):
most horrendous part.
It said, To this day, yearslater, I still do not have any
sort of explanation, but nothingwould excuse what he did.
And then you say,unfortunately, even witnessing
(15:20):
this violence did not make meleave.
This is where I tried tounderstand his manipulative
behaviors so I can explain why Istill didn't leave at this
point and why it is normal forsurvivors not to leave after
horrendous violence.
So I wanted to ask you, And ifsomeone's listening that may
(15:42):
have a lot of these obviouswarning signs, like that event I
just quoted from the book, oreven more subtle ones, what are
some things that they should andshould not do?
And the same question forfriends that suspect abuse.
What should they do and not do?
Yeah.
Kate (16:01):
Okay.
Well, if you are suspectingthat you're in it, then this
will always be my answer.
Call the National DomesticViolence Hotline.
They are going to, A, give youhelp, B, connect you to your
local place.
Because the way that domesticviolence advocacy agencies are
(16:25):
funded is through local taxes.
So you can only get help fromthe one that is in your area.
So you call the NAPA.
And you can text them.
You can also use their website.
They will help you get that,like, personalized help that you
need because every situation isgoing to be very different.
Also, on their website, theyhave a safety plan.
(16:47):
And you can go and create yourown safety plan.
A safety plan and the survivorfollowing their own instincts is
paramount importance.
When a person tries to leave isthe highest time that...
highest possibility of thembeing murdered yeah and it's
(17:08):
like oh did i want to come outand say oh my gosh someone could
be murdered but yes because itreally does happen when we look
at these horrific stories in thenews of somebody um you know
killed their wife and then thekids and you know that's
domestic violence right thosestories are domestic violence so
(17:29):
when a person is trying toleave, they really do have to be
very cautious with their safetyplan and get the help of the
hotline, of the agency, ofsomebody who really knows how to
help you look at all thesedifferent aspects to make the
safest plan for yourself.
You want to try and leave whenthe person is not there.
(17:52):
Like in my case, we dropped himoff at work and then I left the
States.
Jacob (17:58):
I want to ask you about that in a moment too.
So it sounds like whensomeone's ready to leave, they
need to carefully plan.
It sounds like unless there'simmediate danger, but if they
have the time,
Kate (18:12):
if there's immediate danger, like, you know, each
person's going to have to figurethat out for themselves, but
there could be immediate dangerof like, say something bad on
like a level eight out of 10.
And then you leave becauseimmediately because of that
level eight danger and then youcome back you're at a 10 you're
(18:34):
dead you you're not going backfor anything
Jacob (18:39):
okay so you need to be ready to make that gone
Kate (18:42):
gone yeah yeah so if you are feeling a sense of a three
out of 10 start gettingresources start considering what
you
Jacob (18:54):
have
Kate (18:55):
yeah yeah get some of your own money that you can like if
your bank accounts are Thankgoodness I never merged my bank
accounts with him.
So hopefully have your ownmoney in a bank account.
I've seen where people havedone things like this woman, so
smart.
She would go to the grocerystore and get cash back and then
(19:19):
it would just look like agrocery store transaction
because some people will trackall of that.
And then she hid money in hertampons box.
Jacob (19:30):
Wow.
I can't believe these stories Imean gosh I was terrifying
Kate (19:36):
yeah
Jacob (19:37):
yeah and for friends in these situations oh sorry I cut
you off
Kate (19:41):
oh no it's okay I was gonna say um you know it doesn't
it may not be that way foreverybody right the different
there's so many different typesof abuse it may not be financial
abuse or whatever but that'swhere getting the help from a
person who specializes in thisis going to help you to figure
it out you also want to have a ago bag.
(20:01):
And just tell the person thatthis is in case of, well, it
depends where you live.
In Seattle, it's an earthquake.
When I was living in Florida, Iwould say a go bag for a
hurricane.
In the desert, I don't knowwhat your big land.
But just a natural disaster gobag.
(20:24):
Yeah.
Jacob (20:25):
Okay.
And that actually segues intowhat I was going to quote next
from your book, which was thepart where you left, which in my
mind was one of the mostterrifying parts of it.
I believe it was in chapter 18.
You say, quote, I pinched hisarms with my nails as tightly as
(20:47):
I could.
And then after he yelled, yougrabbed or it says you grabbed
my I'm butchering this.
I'm sorry.
I grabbed my overnight bag andlaptop and ran out the door.
faster than I'd ever runbefore.
And shortly after, you know,there was, there was a couple of
(21:08):
events that transpired and I'mjumping way ahead to chapter 34,
which is where you actuallyfully left.
And it says, yes, wait,
Kate (21:17):
can let me pause there for a second.
Yeah.
That chapter 18.
Yeah.
The book goes to, I think 34 or35 chapters, something like
that.
So 18, we're still halfwaythrough and I left not being
prepared and I went back to him.
because I wasn't prepared,right?
So like that also highlights,it's really important to be
(21:37):
really ready to go.
So you're not going back going,okay, well, what now with my
life?
How do I do this?
Yeah, okay, go ahead.
Jacob (21:47):
Sorry.
Yeah, no, that's veryimportant.
Because these two quotes Ipulled are actually far apart in
the book 18 to 34.
And the first one I read, likeyou said, you went back to him.
And do you feel that since youdidn't have the plan, obviously
things got much worse because ofthat.
It caused more problems.
I
Kate (22:06):
think there was a pretty good honeymoon period for a
while.
Jacob (22:13):
So it was more of that cycle.
Kate (22:15):
He was really trying to make things feel really, really
nice for quite some time.
But then the next time thatthere was an event was really
quite brutal.
And so it's like this builduphad been happening underneath
him that he hid really well
Jacob (22:34):
not to mention you have all that history yeah the
Kate (22:36):
trauma bond plays into the cycle of violence yeah so the
trauma bond is what is keepingthe person and then every time
the cycle of violence completesthen it's a more strong trauma
bond so both
Jacob (22:51):
and then in chapter 34 you say quote I needed to assure
my safety before I helped himand that's in reference to
making sure he had the car andthings like that.
And then it says for once, orI'm sorry, we all got into
Lisa's car and then she and Iacted like everything was fine
(23:12):
and it was a normal day.
And then you say, I began tofeel an overwhelming sense of
calm inside me.
I almost even started to feelhappy and confident.
I wanted to ask you in regardsto that, in regards to your exit
plan, What made you feel safeenough to finally act that time
(23:35):
to make it happen?
Kate (23:37):
Well, two main things.
One, I was really fortunatethat my sister was there.
So basically like another eventhad occurred that my sister was
there to support me at four andshe was, you know, talking with
me right that same night andinto the next morning about
(23:58):
like, are you sure you don'twant to leave?
And I'm like, well, my wholelife is here.
year like I really couldn'tfigure it out what it would look
like to leave and then hegaslit me and I did not know
what gaslighting was I had neverheard the term I had no idea
what but I I had thisconversation with him or this
(24:19):
argument with him and I was likefinding my voice and starting
to stand up to him and he justkept lying he just kept being
like oh no that didn't happenand I'm like what what do you
mean that didn't happen I knowwhat happened?
So I go and I tell my sisterthis and she's like, oh, that's
gaslighting.
And I was like, what's that?
And she just explains to me.
And I was like, oh my God, howlong has he been?
(24:43):
He's, he's been doing this fora long time,
Jacob (24:45):
right?
Kate (24:46):
This is not the first time he gaslit me.
Oh my God.
And just started to click.
And I was like, oh, he's alwaysgoing to gaslight me.
He's never going to change.
This is, this is how he hasbeen.
Jacob (24:59):
Yeah.
Kate (25:01):
I got to go.
Jacob (25:01):
And that was it.
You knew.
Yeah.
For sure.
Kate (25:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I didn't know about theimminent dangers of like, you
know, what can happen of thepossibilities of murder at that
point.
But my sister had told me like,you can go back if you want.
And that did give me some calmand peace.
But now that like, you know,I'm a therapist experienced in
(25:28):
helping people with this, Iwould not say you can go back if
you want.
I think it's very, verydangerous to go back.
Um, but having my sister there,I think was the big thing.
And that she, she was like,yeah, this is what gaslighting
is.
I was like, holy.
Jacob (25:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It seemed like in the book whenyou started to connect with
your family and finally feelcomfortable opening up to them
about a lot of these things, itreally helped, um, helped with
your confidence in making thisdecision would you say that's
fair to say
Kate (26:04):
yes absolutely and for a long time I didn't feel like I
could talk to my family but thenit got to a point where it was
so bad that I was like I think Ihave to because he would like
the isolation and that we movedfrom the northwest to Vegas but
that was also partly due to the2009 economy and But then
(26:30):
isolation in that if I was onthe phone with friends and
family, he'd always be like, oh,who are you talking to?
Oh, like, when are we going tohang out?
And I'm like, you know, I seeyou all the time.
Let me talk to my family forlike an hour or whatever, right?
So I just didn't talk toeverybody as much as I wish I
would have.
And if I had, you know, and Idid keep all my friendships,
(26:54):
which is amazing.
But had I been having regularconversations about like, oh, he
did X, Then I would have hadmore feedback of like, Hey,
that's not okay.
Jacob (27:04):
Yeah.
Kate (27:06):
And then I had all of you guys as friends, but I also
didn't want, he didn't want meto tell anybody about anything.
And I didn't want to mess upthe, like when I hung out with
you and well, Anna and the book,I wanted that to be like, that
(27:29):
was my calm happy time you knowI didn't want to think about all
the other stuff
Jacob (27:33):
I'm sure it brings it up for you to to the surface when
you have to explain it toeveryone I think you mentioned
that during the process when youwere leaving like it was you
didn't want to just telleveryone right away of course
because that's a lot and itchanges the way people look at
you I'm sure at least in yourown mind you know on this topic
(27:55):
can we myth bust the just justleave him idea a little bit can
we talk about that I mean I'msure that's a pretty common
phrase why don't you just leavehim you know like oh yeah it's
ridiculous
Kate (28:12):
I would never do that I would just leave him like
Jacob (28:14):
yeah
Kate (28:15):
bitch you don't know like
Jacob (28:19):
you
Kate (28:19):
know Yeah.
So it's a culmination of thethings that we've talked about
so far, right?
So it is the emotional abuse.
It's the trauma bond.
It's the cycle of violence.
All of these things are actingin tandem to strengthen the
relationship and break down theself-esteem.
(28:40):
So we can call that myth bustedthen.
Yes.
And you layer on the isolationwhere you aren't feeling safe to
talk to other people about it.
So then you're just, and layeron the gaslighting.
So then you're just trying tomake sense of stuff in your own
head and none of it makes anysense.
Jacob (28:57):
Yeah.
I remember the gaslightingabout the tripping quote unquote
incident.
And I think for you, was thatin terms of physicality kind of
a final straw or can you talkabout that a little bit?
Yeah.
Kate (29:20):
In physicality, yes, because it was the third time
that I, like, third big thingthat I thought of happening,
even though technically it wasthe fourth, but I'd forgotten
about the very first one on thewedding night.
But it was more thegaslighting.
(29:41):
Because he's like, you tripped.
You must have felt, you, like,I wouldn't have pushed you.
And I'm like, I know.
that your hands wereoutstretched toward me.
I watched your hands stretchout to me and push me.
Jacob (29:58):
Yeah.
Kate (29:59):
You can't make me not believe that.
Jacob (30:02):
Change reality.
Kate (30:04):
Yeah.
And I think that he had beentrying to change my reality for
a really long time.
Jacob (30:09):
And not just you, but everybody.
I remember in that incident,oh, she drank too much.
You know, she slipped.
And then hurtful nicknames likeintoxicated.
hate and all that you know likeit was unbelievable um and i
think you you pointed out howsome friends thought that that
was the reality um in the bookwho i won't point out but it's
(30:34):
amazing how that gaslightingcannot just be contained in
between you two but you knowtrying to explain it to everyone
it's like you know the oldcliche when a woman's wearing
glasses and she has like thelittle oh i slipped and fell or
something you know i mean it waslike oh it was literal in your
case, you know, I slipped andfell.
It's like, no, she didn't.
(30:55):
No,
Kate (30:55):
no.
Is that what, yeah.
Like, what do you remember fromthat time when I, when I left?
Is that, that's what peoplewere saying?
Jacob (31:04):
It was, uh, it was obviously a long time ago.
And, and from my recollection,that was kind of the general
vibe.
I was one of those that I waslike, I, you know, this is
between you guys type thing.
Um, looking back though, I wishthat and this is something that
your book really does is itbrings awareness.
(31:26):
That's what I try to do on thispodcast is help people be more
mindful, bring more awarenessinto their life.
And the warning signs and thesered flags that you talk about
are very important.
So even, you know, to peoplewho think that they're not in an
abusive relationship now or maynot be, I think there's a lot
to get out of this book becauseof what it teaches you to look
(31:48):
for in relationships, even forFor me, as a husband, it kind of
made me evaluate myself and,oh, have I ever done any of
these before?
I might have gotten close.
I mean, to some degree, I thinkeverybody makes mistakes, of
course, and manipulation is partof being human.
(32:09):
But I think it's when we noticeor become mindful that we are,
we need to make changes.
But to your question, yeah, Ithink that was the general vibe
that was being pushed is not tobe make a pun there is that you
had tripped because of that andsomething was off you know I
(32:31):
think with all of us and the wayit was perceived with that but
Kate (32:36):
right right but like that's the story that Jason
wanted to tell people was sure Itripped how does that make
sense that then I just left andnever came back after
Jacob (32:48):
that I think people started to Yeah.
But the aftermath was whatreally touched my heart.
I believe it was chapter 34,you say, quote, after I had
lived with an abuser for fiveyears, I had forgotten what it
(33:08):
felt like to be able to count onpeople that I loved because he
showed me that I could not.
My father and stepmother alsoshowed me they were there for
me.
As did my friends and otherfamily members.
Abuse had made me forget.
But leaving reminded me thatlove is not supposed to strip
(33:31):
you of safety.
It's supposed to restore it.
To me, that really hit me inthe feels when I read that.
And I just wanted to ask you,what was the aftermath like when
your family was justsurrounding you with love?
And what are green flags thatyou talk about that you cherish
now?
Kate (33:50):
Yeah.
Well, right after, yeah, I wentto my mom and stepdad's house,
and then my dad and stepmom andsaw my friends.
You know, everyone was around,but I was in shock.
I did not move for two weeks.
I was just in literal, like, Islept on the couch.
My mom's dog, who's no longerwith us, but our mom's dog,
(34:13):
Slider, was this big goldenretriever who would cuddle with
me on the couch.
Okay.
It was very sweet.
So I stayed in shock until Icalled the National Domestic
Violence Hotline.
And I talked with them.
And I was like, well, here's alittle bit of what happened.
(34:37):
And I just, I don't know how amI supposed to ever talk to him
again.
And the person on the phonesaid, you don't.
I was like, what?
She was like, you don't haveto.
have to talk to him ever againif you don't want to.
And I was like, oh, okay then.
And I started coming out ofshock.
Jacob (35:00):
Wow.
Just from the realization thatyou didn't have to speak to him
again, you felt just like thatimmediately better.
I mean, no,
Kate (35:10):
it's very like, yeah, I'm healed.
No, no, no, not like that.
Jacob (35:15):
But you felt a wave of relief that you didn't have to
actually speak to him
Kate (35:21):
I felt snapped out of the shock I felt like I could come
in to a sense of safety in mybody because I didn't have a
sense of safety in my body onceI like that's part of the shock
right the shock was okay I lefthim but what like what now like
(35:41):
we're married we have a houselike what what happens now and I
I just thought I was gonna haveto reconcile something things
with him and I couldn't makesense of how that would look
knowing how dangerous he was andknowing how much he gaslights
like emotionally dangerous andso the the shock was this
(36:03):
feeling of paralysis on one handI've left on the other hand I
might have to speak to him againand be in that world again and
once I learned that I did nothave to like yes I spoke to
through lawyers um I didn't haveto talk to him again then I I
was able to come out of my shockbecause I was not in the
(36:26):
paralysis of floating betweenworlds.
I was like, oh, I can feel safeenough that I can start to find
my voice and start to ask forhelp and get the help that I
need.
Jacob (36:37):
Right.
It's almost as if, correct meif I'm wrong here, but your
mind, after the gaslighting, youwere in fear that that it would
happen again, but your body waskind of telling you something
was wrong this whole time,right?
Like you were...
Like...
(36:57):
the stories wanted to makesense in your mind that he was
telling you, but your body wastelling you something else,
perhaps, your subconscious,whatever you want to call it,
like, you need to get out ofhere.
And then knowing that momentyou realized you didn't have to
talk to him ever again, itsounds like a big relief.
I mean, were you worried thatwhen you talked to him again,
(37:19):
he'd try to talk you back intocoming home, things like that?
Yeah,
Kate (37:23):
and then I was like, if he could have done that to me, if
he could have...
you know, push me downstairsand told me that he didn't, what
else would he do?
So there was a part of my bodythat even though I didn't have
all the statistics on chance ofbeing murdered, there was a part
of me that knew that that couldhave been a thing.
Jacob (37:47):
Or with Mary, you talked about his lack of remorse about
it.
Yeah.
I mean, that was...
Kate (37:53):
Yeah.
Jacob (37:55):
Joking about it even.
Kate (37:57):
Yeah.
Jacob (37:59):
So I wanted to ask you about chapter 18 in your book.
You mentioned, quote, now Itake a minimum of a few minutes
each day to practicemindfulness.
Mindfulness is really justbeing present, acknowledging
what is right in front of you,and letting your thoughts about
the past and future slip away.
(38:19):
Practicing mindfulness givesour brain a chance to rest and
pause, which allows our brainsto organize our thoughts and
process everything so we canmake better decisions moving
forward.
But I didn't have a mindfulnesspractice back then.
I just kept trudging forward,no matter what life threw at me.
And I wanted to ask from, youknow, a therapist perspective or
(38:41):
your own personal experience,what kind of practices you
recommend?
I talk about mindfulness a lotin this podcast, so a lot of my
listeners would be curious, youknow, what does a therapist,
especially in your niche with,you know, the people you help,
what kind of practices do yourecommend and partake in
yourself?
Kate (38:59):
Oh, Um...
I honestly, there is not oneanswer to that.
It is so individualized.
It is whatever makes sense foryou.
What I do personally, and Ihave the luxury of setting my
own schedule, so I can start myworkday at 10 a.m.
(39:21):
and I can wake up at 8 and haveplenty of time in the morning,
right?
But it depends on what you doyou.
But I start my day with coffeeby the window and And sometimes
I will be reading a book or Iwill be doing a crossword or
maybe pulling some tarot cards.
But I'll just stare out thewindow a lot.
Jacob (39:46):
It doesn't need to be the full lotus.
Oh,
Kate (39:50):
my gosh.
No, no.
And also just a note there thatwhen you look at the window in
the morning and see anysunshine, even here in Seattle
where it's often gray, there'sstill some sunshine that pokes
through.
Right.
That actually helps to bring alittle cortisol and it'll help
your brain wake up a little bitmore.
So that's my mindfulnesspractice.
(40:13):
And when I finish my work day,I just sit.
I just sit and let everythingjust leave my mind.
Now, what I do want to say iswithin those last, with the
first few years after leaving anabusive relationship your brain
(40:34):
will find stillness to bepretty scary because when you
have stillness some memories aregoing to float up and things
that you weren't expecting willfloat up so I actually do not
recommend it for when you'refirst leaving because it's not
going to feel safe and good inyour body but what I do
recommend is and so there'smeditation is like the like just
(40:57):
sit with nothing right and thenthere's mindfulness which is
doing something so mymindfulness in the morning My
morning is a little bit of both.
But if I'm reading a book ordoing a crossword, my brain can
only do that thing, right?
It can only take in the wordsof the book or it can only fill
out the crossword puzzleanswers.
(41:17):
It's just giving your brainsomething to make it take up all
the space.
Yeah, but like in a non-urgentmatter.
And so it might be a Sudoku orit might be the act of making
your tea or making your coffee.
It's basically a time to turnoff the background noise.
Jacob (41:40):
Yes.
That's beautiful, Kate.
I really like that.
And when I read that in thebook, I was really touched
because before I even read thatpart, I had this reflection that
your entire book is reallybringing awareness.
Like you say, warning signs,you know, being aware because
the signs are there whether yousee them or not.
(42:01):
And your book brings awarenessto that, which is invaluable.
Like I said, even earlier, evento myself, I don't consider
myself abusive, but it's likeeveryone can get something out
of this book.
It can make them double checkthemselves.
It's really powerful.
And I have to commend you forthat.
And the mindfulness bit wasjust awesome when I read that.
(42:22):
Oh, thank
Kate (42:24):
you.
And I want to speak to thatjust briefly.
Like, no, Jake, you are notabusive.
We know this.
Okay.
This is without a doubt factualum but like yeah but because he
mentioned it earlier earliertoo where you're like well i saw
i see that i could do thesethings yeah i see things that i
can do too right i also have alot of humility in the book
(42:46):
where i'm like well yeah i alsowasn't perfect here um and um
Jacob (42:52):
You did that really well in the book.
Kate (42:55):
Thanks.
You're very honest.
When we're determining if arelationship is abusive or not
or toxic or not, whatever wordchoice you want to have there,
we are looking at an overallpower dynamic.
Is the power shared between thecouple or does one person have
(43:17):
more power?
What that power can look likecan be very different.
People can be in charge of youknow my partner right now he is
changing the fog light on thecar okay you know but I do all
the laundry and like that's fineright like whatever the power
is it's it's equal in its ownway then you know you have a
(43:38):
healthy relationship so you wantto look at that and you want to
look at how do you feel how doeach of you feel happy safe yeah
if you have that then you'regood if you don't feel happy and
safe then that's when you needto look at and evaluate
Jacob (43:59):
good stuff and I like what you said too about
mindfulness like you know becareful about how fast you jump
into it it's good to be awarebut diving straight into your
innermost psyche abouteverything you're experiencing
can be really rough so bemindful of the warning signs but
be mindful of how you're youknow how fast you surface things
as well don't overload yourself
Kate (44:22):
Yeah, and that's where like talking about it
externally, like with a friendor family member or domestic
violence advocacy agency, peoplethat work there, like talking
about it with someone else issafer, because you can
emotionally regulate with thatperson instead of being all
alone in your own
Jacob (44:39):
brain.
might be in this situation nowas far as tangible things to do.
Like you mentioned callingshelters and hotline resources.
(45:01):
Are there specific, should wedirect them to the description
box or is there something we cantell them over the air right
now?
Kate (45:08):
Yes.
So National Domestic ViolenceHotline, they have a phone
number, they have a text, theyhave a chat on their website.
Get a hold of them and theywill
Jacob (45:22):
help you get to that.
Oh, sorry.
I cut you off.
I think I took it from yourbook.
Is it 800-799-SAFE, I believe?
Kate (45:30):
Yes.
Yes.
Jacob (45:31):
Okay.
And the hotline.org, I believe.
We'll put that in thedescription, too.
Kate (45:36):
Yes.
Yes.
Please do.
Yes.
Put that in there.
They are going to be your firststep, even if you're not sure.
Even if you're like, I don'tknow if this is domestic
violence or not.
Just start there.
They are going to help you toget the right resources to know
what to do next and then alsotry and talk to yeah and try and
talk to your friends and familyor if you've been so isolated
(45:59):
that you don't have friends andfamily try and talk to anyone
Jacob (46:04):
just somebody
Kate (46:04):
anyone that is an acquaintance someone you kind of
know try and speak with someoneabout it because keeping it all
inside your head is where it'sthe most confusing um so gotta
get get the words out
Jacob (46:21):
absolutely get some other perspective And on that note,
there was a quote I had.
I know we're moving towards thefinish line here, but I wanted
to read this last quote.
It's pretty short.
It's very to the point.
I believe it's in your finalepilogue.
You say, quote, the bottom lineis that the person's life is
more important than yourrelationship with them.
(46:43):
It is an issue of safety overtrust.
I think that hits it right onthe head.
Reach out.
don't uh you're not going tohave a relationship if you don't
have your life right i mean
Kate (46:57):
yes
Jacob (47:00):
yes
Kate (47:00):
absolutely that is i put that in there for the people who
know someone who might be in arelationship and are like well i
don't want to say somethingbecause i don't want to rock the
boat say something saysomething hey i noticed this i'm
here for you don't tell themyou have to leave because that
might not be the right answerfor them but i noticed this and
(47:22):
i here for you.
Jacob (47:24):
Awesome.
Well, Kate, this has beenawesome.
I really appreciate you takingnot only your time, but having
the courage to write this book,to talk about this.
I know you've been on severalpodcasts promoting the book, and
it couldn't have been easy towrite the book, much less talk
about it.
So thank you for having thecourage and doing this.
(47:45):
You go back in time.
Can you imagine us you know,back in 2010, thinking someday
I'll have a podcast.
I'll be interviewing you aboutthis topic.
where we were I
Kate (48:02):
feel like I could have seen if you're like I'm gonna
have a podcast to talk about theimportance of caring for the
environment I would have beenlike yeah like that I could that
I could predict yeah but notnot this yeah
Jacob (48:14):
doing this with you yeah it's just it's been great it's
been great reconnecting with youit's been healing for me as
well I mean this this wholething has been awesome and do
you want to let our listenersknow where they can find you and
where they can pre-order thebook
Kate (48:30):
yeah yeah thank you um yeah this has been so good so
good to speak with you um yes soum you can find um find me and
the book everything is at myname katemageau.com
k-a-t-e-m-a-g-e-a-u and then youcan find a link to it there but
it's on amazon and then it'llalso be um available anywhere
(48:53):
books are sold i'm putting it onamazon um oh my god why did i
just forgot the name of it,Amazon Kindle Unlimited.
So if you have that, you canread it for free, but then that
means that the e-books are justgoing to hopefully be at
libraries.
You can request it to be atyour library, and the e-book
will be on Amazon, and then youcan order the print book
(49:15):
anywhere books are sold.
Jacob (49:17):
Awesome.
I'll put links in thedescription, too, so that people
can find it easily, and ofcourse, I highly recommend it.
It is an incredible read, andthis has been a lot of fun thank
you
Kate (49:30):
thank you oh and i also want to add i am available for
um coaching if you want to writeyour own memoir i am going to
be setting up a program for thatsoon so if you're like if
you're inspired to write yourown book like this then i would
love to help you through that
Jacob (49:46):
that's so awesome i didn't know you were doing that
as well very cool
Kate (49:49):
i'm always doing something
Jacob (49:51):
you're just doing all kinds of fun stuff that's how
you've always been All right,Kate.
Well, thank you again.
I love you.
And this has been awesome.
Kate (50:01):
Love you too, Jake.
Jacob (50:06):
All right, everyone.
Well, that wraps up ourconversation.
I want to say a huge thanks toKate for her courage and
vulnerability for being willingto expose a very vulnerable part
of her life like this, hercourage and openness to share
this story.
Absolutely incredible.
Before we sign off, I will bereading her Survivors Bill of
(50:28):
Rights, which appears at the endof her book.
And it's something thatsurvivors read together at the
end of every support group.
And Kate Key it close as adaily reminder.
Before I read that though, I dowant to remind you all that
Rose Colored Glasses, the bookwill be out on October 2nd, one
week after this episode airs.
And if anyone listening feelsthat they are in a situation
(50:52):
that we've been talking about ordescribing, please do not
hesitate to call that domesticviolence hotline.
The number is 800-799-SAFE.
That's 799-SAFE.
Or you can go tothehotline.org.
And now as we close, I want toread Kate Survivor's Bill of
(51:13):
Rights.
So my Bill of Rights.
I have the right to be me.
I have the right to put myselffirst.
I have the right to be safe.
I have the right to love and beloved.
(51:34):
I have the right to be treatedwith respect.
I have the right to be human,not perfect.
I have the right to be angryand protest if I am being
treated unfairly or abusively byanyone.
I have the right to my ownprivacy.
(51:56):
I have the right to my ownopinions, to express them and to
be taken seriously.
I have the right to earn andcontrol my own money.
I have the right to askquestions about anything that
affects my life.
I have the right to makedecisions that affect me.
(52:17):
I have the right to grow andchange, and that includes my
mind.
I have the right to say no.
I have the right to makemistakes.
I have the right not to beresponsible for other adults'
(52:38):
problems.
I have the right not to beliked by everyone.
And I have the right to controlmy own life and to change it if
I am not happy with it as itis.
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