March 11, 2025 • 27 mins
In a world where effective health communication is more crucial than ever, storytelling emerges as a powerful tool. Join us for a conversation with Dr. Maya Adam, Director of Health Media Innovation and Clinical Associate Professor at Stanford School of Medicine. Dr. Adam reveals how weaving narratives into health education can transform complex messages into accessible messages. Discover how innovative storytelling is not only reshaping public health challenges but also paving the way for the future of health education in our rapidly evolving digital landscape.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
(bright music)
(00:06):
- Welcome to "Stanford Medcast,"
the podcast from Stanford CME
that brings you the latest insights
from the world's leadingphysicians and scientists.
If you're joining us for the first time,
be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcast,
Amazon Music, Spotify, or YouTube
to stay updated with our newest episodes.
I am your host, Dr. Ruth Adewuya.
(00:26):
Today is a milestonefor "Stanford Medcast."
It is our hundredth episode.
Over the years, we'veexplored cutting-edge science,
groundbreaking medical advancements,
and the voices shaping healthcare.
Whether you've been with us from the start
or just tuning in, thank you so much
for being a part of this journey.
In this episode, we arecelebrating women in medicine
(00:47):
and I'm thrilled tochat with Dr. Maya Adam,
who is a clinical associate professor
in the Department of Pediatrics
at Stanford School of Medicine,
where she is the Directorof Health Media Innovation
and the Associate Director ofthe Center for Digital Health.
Her work centers on developing
and evaluating innovativevideo-based educational approaches
to global health communication,
(01:08):
particularly in maternal and child health,
nutrition, mental healthand disease prevention.
She received her undergraduate degree
in human biology from Stanford,
her medical degree from theUniversity of British Columbia,
and her doctoral research degree
from the Heidelberg University Institute
of Global Health in Germany.
Dr. Adam has contributed
to numerous peer-reviewed articles
(01:29):
focusing on the effectiveness
of digital health interventions.
She recently launched the"Health Compass" podcast
where she interviewedStanford Medicine experts
to break down complex healthtopics for the general public.
Thank you so much forchatting with me today.
- It's such a pleasure to be here
and it's lovely to be on thisend of the interview, Ruth.
- I love that.
It's always fun to switch roles
(01:50):
and I'm really thrilled to have you here.
Your journey from professional dancer
to health educator andresearcher is truly unique.
Can you share how thistransition came about?
- It has definitely beenan adventure for me.
I believed throughout my childhood
that I wanted to be aprofessional ballet dancer.
(02:10):
I had absolutely noplans to go to college.
I just wanted to be on astage for the rest of my life.
I have two parents who are academics.
My mother is originallyIndian South African.
She had to leave South Africa
during the apartheid years
when mixed-race marriageswere forbidden by law.
(02:31):
My parents ended up raising us in Canada.
As academics they were not thrilled
that they had moved across the world
to offer their childrena better opportunity
and their daughter wantedto become a dancer.
But after high school, they agreed
that I could take a gap year.
In that year, I was admittedto a ballet academy in Germany
(02:54):
that was supposed to be one of the best.
That year ended up being a decade.
The interesting thingfor me about that career,
I had always been aware ofknowing what it feels like
to be the different one in the room,
and where I ended up performing
was in the former East Germany
at one of the big state theaters,
(03:15):
which in the early 1990s
was an all-blonde balletcompany, and then there was me.
They also noticed
that I was always being typecastin the classical ballets,
what was then known as "the gypsy."
There'd always be a gypsy role.
There'd always be a prostituteor an Arabian dancer,
(03:36):
and that would inevitably be me
and I would never get thechance to dance Juliet or Clara.
That was an awakening for me.
Over time, thankfully, thecompany became more diverse
and I got a chance to dancesome of the other roles
that I had dreamed of dancing.
But it was interesting for me
because it made me aware of two things.
(03:58):
One, is how much better our world is
when there's diversityin everything we do.
Secondly, the power of being able
to engage an audience withauthentic storytelling.
That is something very magical
because even the mosttechnically skilled dancers
in the theater, theycouldn't fill an audience
(04:21):
and keep them in their seats
the way that the maybeimperfect dancers could,
if they could tell a storyand engage the audience.
That is something that I'vepulled into my career today
and the things that I dowith digital storytelling.
- I resonate deeply withyour story as an immigrant,
navigating the balance offollowing one's passion,
(04:45):
but as a Nigerian immigrantalso having approved paths
of professions that you can enter.
But your journey ofbeing able to pursue that
and blend creativityfrom your dance career
and how it then impacted the work
that you're doing in digitalhealth education is inspiring.
To dive deeper into that,I would love for you
(05:06):
to just chat about what inspired you
to focus on digital health education
since you made that transition.
- I was 10 years later than everybody else
in my pursuit of a medical degree.
I started undergrad at the age of 27.
I started med school atthe age of 30, almost 31,
(05:27):
already married and pregnantwith our first child.
It brought me to the decisionnot to do a residency
because I finished medicalschool with a 3 year old
and a three month old andpretty sleep deprived.
I remember thinking, "I'mgonna find something to do
with my medical degree and loveof teaching, communicating,
(05:47):
and engaging an audience."
I found a passion in teaching
because teaching is like performing.
If you can keep thatclass engaged or laughing
or you can move them with storytelling,
you can convey ideas.
I started teaching at Stanford
in the Human Biology program in 2009,
and then in 2011,
(06:10):
there was this explosionof online learning.
In those days, it was the MOOC,
the massive open online course
that everybody thoughtwould democratize education
and allow us to buildbridges to communities
that had previously lackedaccess to higher education.
I started making MOOCs.
I was bringing thisacademic medical career
(06:33):
in online teaching and health education.
We ended up making eightmassive open online courses.
The MOOC wave subsided
and we moved into the pandemic,
which brought these new challenges
of how can we get healthmessages out instantaneously
and how can they be used to cross cultures
(06:54):
and language barriers,
literacy barriers, educational barriers.
We had to reinvent ourselves
and I was given an opportunity
to start the Global HealthMedia Innovation Lab
that I currently run.
That lab focuses on designing scalable,
short-form health communication media
(07:15):
that can go viral on social media
to reach the people thatwe need to reach the most
on the platforms
where they're already investingtime consuming content.
- I really appreciatehow central storytelling
and accessibility are to your work
and how you've leveragedyour clinical education
to pivot into this important space.
(07:36):
It would be great to spendsome time discussing some
of the unique projectsthat you've taken on.
There are many, but perhapsyou could highlight one
that stands out in terms of the impact
of animated storytelling.
- We're currently runninga large-scale online RCT
to start creating a mental health series
using our short animatedstorytelling approach,
(07:59):
which is very short,wordless, animated films
that can scale and cross cultures
and meant to be engagingeven though they're wordless
because they have greatvisual storytelling
and compelling soundtracks.
We were making this mental health series,
one of our brilliantaddiction medicine specialists
(08:19):
at Stanford approached me and said,
"You have to have a videoon addiction in the series
because there's so many cases
where these problems arecombined mental health problems
and addiction problems."
I thought, "Great, but how do we do that?"
There's this phenomenon called reactance
where when we feel that somebody's message
(08:40):
is threatening our freedom
or threatening to take awaysomething we depend on,
we want to ignore that message
and in fact engage evenmore in the behavior
that the message is warning us not to do.
The minute we showrepresentation of a human
that's engaging in addictive behaviors,
then people who may besuffering with addiction
(09:00):
may turn away and notengage with that content.
We thought for a long time
and talked to a lot of peoplein the animation industry,
and we came up with anidea to use an analogy
and to make this happen underwater.
It ended up being thestory of a young fish
who sees this shimmeringsubstance underwater
(09:22):
and is curious about it.
That fish ends up trying the substance,
ends up getting hooked on the substance,
and ends up being saved by an older fish.
In that younger fish's moment of shame,
when he turns around andthere's a gash in his lip
because he's been torn free from the hook,
the older fish turns around
and you see that the olderfish has that same scar.
(09:45):
It's a moment of empathy
and the message to theviewer that you're not alone.
It's a message that there's help out there
and it's a message that becoming addicted
is not the fault of theperson with the problem.
Often there's this societal belief
that somebody is very much at fault
if they become addicted to something.
(10:06):
We know that that's not the case.
We've decided to do a trial
and we were offered fundingto do a three-country trial
with more than 13,000 people
to see if this approachcould really cross borders
and cross global regions.
Even in the pilot populationwhich had 600 people,
we've seen significantresults in terms of lowering
(10:29):
of addiction stigma in the participants.
I'm super excited to launchthe larger-scale trial.
- Thank you for sharing that example.
I really appreciate how you'rebringing education to life
through this powerful blendof theatrical storytelling
and visual narrative.
Your background in dance seems
to have naturallyinfluenced the way you think
(10:50):
about movement and rhythmand emotion in storytelling,
and on the research side,I'm really intrigued
by the large-scaletrial you're conducting.
You mentioned seeing promisingresults in your pilot study.
What methods are you using
to assess the effectivenessof these videos
and how do you determine whetherthe storytelling approach
is shifting perceptionsand reducing stigma?
(11:11):
- We use large-scale online trials.
Because this is an online intervention,
it's appropriate to use anaudience as our test population
that is engaged online
because since we disseminateour content via social media,
our target audience is anaudience that is engaged online.
(11:33):
Luckily and unluckily.
Many, many, many people around the world
have access to a smartphoneand are on social media
or some platform where theycan receive these messages.
What we do is we use onlinerecruitment platforms,
ones that are highly regardedin the academic community,
we engage with those platforms
(11:53):
to recruit participant populations
across different global regionsand then randomize them.
We collect baseline data from everyone
to see where they are.
We wanna make sure that, for example,
baseline addiction stigma issimilar across two groups.
Then we may have, let's say a third group
where we take the sound away
(12:15):
and we wanna test whether it's the visual
or whether it's the visual with the sound
that is having the effect.
The intervention groupwill see the content
and then respond tosome validated measures
of addiction stigma,
and the control group will havesome form of active control,
either what we call anattention placebo control,
(12:37):
which is another video that'sunrelated to addiction stigma
or some form of writteninformational material
that's not storytelling
because what we wanna know is,
does this approach towordless storytelling,
with and without soundtrack,
is there some sort of catalyst there
that can shift the way people think
(12:58):
about a certain topic like addiction?
By comparing the changesacross the two groups
from baseline to post exposure
and then also following up.
We usually have quitea nice retention rate
where we get more than 80% ofthe participants coming back.
That lets us learn aboutwhat's working and what's not.
(13:19):
We publish our findings,
can also help otherintervention developers
and other researchers
as they develop their healthcommunication interventions.
- It's really great to seesuch a rigorous approach
applied to health communicationand education research,
especially in a global context.
The way you're measuring tangible impact
(13:41):
through storytelling isan important contribution
to the field.
That leads me to my next question.
I came across one of yourpublications on using storytelling
to improve dietary sodium literacy,
and I'd love to hear more about that work.
Based on your research and experience,
how do you see storytelling playing a role
(14:01):
in enhancing public health education?
- It has to do withestablishing connections.
Before we can try andinfluence the way people think,
we need to establish a connection to them.
That bridge can be builtthrough storytelling
and through the emotionsthat storytelling evokes.
For example, if we can make people laugh
(14:23):
or if we can make them, even for a moment,
feel inspiration or be moved by a story,
then we have an open communication channel
for sending our message.
We've often used things like humor
to convey vaccine promotion messages.
For the sodium study that you mentioned,
the intervention is humorous.
(14:45):
It's the story of a heartthat wakes its owner up
and says, "Hey, man, I'm quitting.
I'm under so pressurebecause your diet is terrible
and there's way too much salt in it,"
and the guy is like, "What is going on?
Like, is my heart talking to me?"
And has to learn within three minutes,
which is the length of the intervention,
(15:05):
that this is what's going on.
These are the foodsthat are high in sodium
that maybe one should reduce in the diet.
Then at the end, they make a pact
that the guy is gonnastart improving his diet
and eating less sodium
and the heart is not gonna quit on him.
It's an analogy to somethingthat's scientifically based,
but it's delivered in a way
(15:25):
that's humorous and lighthearted.
Another thing we were able
to move the needle on in that study
is something calledbehavioral expectation,
which is the closest we can get
without doing long-term studies.
We can ask people, "Given allof the barriers that exist,
how likely is it that you will be able
to reduce the sodium in your diet?"
(15:48):
On follow up we can also ask people
how successful they were at doing that.
Those are the ways in whichwe try and gather information
about whether or not theseinterventions are working.
- It's clear that storytellingis a powerful tool,
especially when it's crafted in a way
that's both memorableand emotionally resonant.
(16:08):
Your work really highlightshow these creative approaches
can make complex health messages
more accessible and impactful.
Building on that, I'd loveto shift the conversation
to digital platforms.
They offer incredible opportunitiesfor reaching audiences,
but also present challenges,
particularly when it comesto health misinformation.
From your perspective, how can media,
(16:30):
especially digital platforms,
be leveraged to combat misinformation
and ensure accuratescience-based messaging
reaches the public?
- A, they're part of the problem,
and B, they're part of the solution.
There's no clear answer there.
These social media filter bubblesthat we find ourselves in,
I don't think people are aware
(16:51):
of being surrounded within an echo chamber
of people who all believe the same thing.
How quickly that can make you believe
that what you think isright is definitely right.
I think it's led to a lotof problems in our society,
not just in terms of theanti-science sentiment
that is very pervasiveright now in the US,
(17:13):
but also the political polarization
where we're not seeing any common ground
with the other side.
At the same time, the realityis that most Americans
of a certain age are goingto be seeking information
and consuming informationvia these platforms.
If we fail to get on there
(17:35):
and put the science-based stuff there,
then we're missing anopportunity to inform people
in a way that is validatedand evidence-based.
We do have a responsibility
to engage on those platformslong as they're being used
because it's a channel to reach people
that we will otherwise fail to reach.
(17:56):
- That is such an important point.
Staying engaged in this space
and actively seeking opportunities
to be part of the solution is critical.
I'm curious about your perspective
on the specific role researchersshould play in this effort.
What are some tangible waysresearchers can contribute
to digital media content
while ensuring that they'repart of the solution
(18:17):
rather than unintentionallycontributing to the problem?
- Researchers and publichealth advocates and teachers,
as long as the information
that they're presenting is evidence-based,
the only other thing that needs to happen
is that it needs to be presented in a way
that reaches its audience.
(18:39):
Sometimes, unfortunately, when people
are experts in a field, theyforget that their audiences
is non-expert in that field.
They end up presenting things in a way
that's appropriate fortheir understanding,
but might fail to meet the audience
that they're trying to reach.
Going from the perspective, isthis message evidence-based?
(19:00):
Are we sure this is trueand has been proven?
Then if we wanna communicatethis to a certain audience,
where is that audience?
Where do they consume their information?
Where are they in terms of theirunderstanding of this issue
and how can I presentthe information in a way
that truly meets them where they are?
(19:20):
- Your point about bringing
the human element intostorytelling is so key
and it's something that reallycomes through in your work.
I'd love to hear more aboutyour podcast, "Health Compass,"
because it seems like a perfect example
of how you bring these stories to life.
- "Health Compass" was the brainchild
of the Communicationsteam at Stanford Medicine.
(19:43):
We have all these amazingresearchers at Stanford Medicine
and for these researchers,they have fascinating stories
how they came to be doingthe work that they're doing.
I think part of the barrierto understanding the research
is a feeling thatresearchers are so educated
that maybe because wedon't know their story,
(20:05):
we can't access theresearch that they're doing.
The thinking was tohumanize medical research
and health science by gettingto know the researchers
that are doing this amazing work
and then also having themexplain, in their own words,
the research that they're doing.
Each of the interviewsI've had has brought me
(20:25):
so much insight into an area
in which I'm a non-expertmost of the time,
and also in terms of humanizingthese fantastic colleagues
and hearing what motivates them,
what keeps them going on the days
when they get tired or feel stressed,
how do they continueto pursue their goals?
(20:46):
These are lessons thatwe can all learn from.
- I think it's an incredible initiative
and I really appreciate howpodcasts like yours and mine
create space to share impactful stories
directly from experts.
One of the reasons westarted "Stanford Medcast"
is to bring these important conversations
to clinicians amid their busy schedules,
(21:07):
and it has only reinforced my belief
that storytelling is a powerful tool
not just in shaping health communication,
but also in advancing medical education.
I would love to hear your thoughts
on how the increasing role of women
in digital health and health communication
is reshaping the way we approachpublic health challenges.
(21:29):
- In general, increasing diversity,
whether it's gender diversity,racial and ethnic diversity,
or diversity of abilities and experiences,
the more diversity we bring to the table,
the better we can see the whole picture.
Somebody described itto me once as a puzzle.
Unless you have all of the puzzle pieces,
(21:51):
you can't see what theimage is meant to portray.
When we lack diversity inour communication initiatives
or in our research, we havethese gaping holes in the puzzle
that prevent us fromseeing the bigger picture.
It's wonderful to have a greaterrepresentation from women.
I'm a proponent of having all genders
(22:14):
and all races andethnicities and abilities
and people from different countries
and walks of life come together
because there is then texture
and perspectives thatinform that bigger picture.
- I resonate with that analogy of a puzzle
and it's such a powerful way
to think about the importanceof diversity overall,
(22:35):
not just in healthcommunication and research,
and how when we're missing perspectives,
we're missing essentialpieces of a bigger picture,
which ultimately affects howeffective our messaging can be.
Building on that idea ofinclusivity and impact,
I'd love to hear your thoughtson innovation in this space.
(22:55):
What advice would you offer
to those who are lookingto push the boundaries
of health communication and global health?
- Follow your passion.
The approach you take
is something you have tobe very excited about.
Don't start a podcast
if you're not passionate about podcasts
and don't start creatinganimated short video content
(23:15):
if you don't like animation.
It has to be something that excites you.
With products, if you don't love it,
people are gonna sensethat you don't love it
and they won't love it either.
You have to love theapproach that you're taking
and then you have togather the right team.
You have to find people that you respect
and enjoy working with
(23:36):
that are going to support you
both in creating thehealth communication tools
that you're gonna create
and also people that arehelp you realistically test,
even if it's hard, revise, goback, change your approach.
If it's not working, try something new.
Sometimes in academia, we fear failure
(23:56):
because we think "If this trial fails,
it's gonna be so embarrassing.
I have to publish a papersaying, 'There was no effect.'"
That's progress.
That's amazing becausethat gives us information.
Being fearless about failure,
being ready to rapidlyiterate and reiterate
and gather feedback, evenif it's tough feedback,
(24:17):
and then work with a teamthat will be honest with you,
but will also have your backand help you to move forward
and pivot when needed.
Those are the keys
that I have found have supportedmy work over the years.
- That's excellent advice
and it's so applicable toeverything we do in this space.
As we look toward the future,
(24:37):
I'd love to hear your thoughts
on how technologicaladvancements will continue
to shape digital health education.
What innovations do you see on the horizon
that could further transformthe way we communicate
and educate in healthcare?
- That's a really timely question.
We are in the midst of a lotof discussions around AI,
and I sit in on a lot of discussions
(25:00):
where people are debating
whether AI is gonna begood or bad for our future.
In some ways, AI is like a tool
in that if you picture a hammer.
In the hands of somebodywho knows what they're doing
and who has good intentions,a hammer can be used
to build the most phenomenal things.
(25:22):
In the hands of somebodywith bad intentions,
a hammer can be a weapon.
Whether AI is gonna begood or bad for our future
depends on how good or bad are the people
that are using AI to shape our future.
And often bad actorsare not gonna hesitate
to pick up that tool and start using it.
(25:42):
The onus is on us
to learn how to use thesedigital innovations like AI
to put them to use for good in society
and model that kind of applicationof digital technologies
so that the space doesn'tfill up with bad actors
who are gonna use itfor the wrong purposes.
- What a wonderful analogyfor thinking about AI,
(26:05):
not just in digital health communication,
but across all the spaceswhere AI is being integrated.
It's exciting to see how wecan continue leveraging AI
to meet people where they are,
which is truly the essence of this work.
Maya, thank you for sharing your insights
and expertise with us today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
(26:26):
- It has been great to chat,Ruth. Thank you so much.
- As we wrap up our hundredth episode,
I want to take a momentto express my gratitude.
Reaching this milestone is a testament
to the power of storytelling,learning, and curiosity,
and to the incredible guests
who have shared theirexpertise along the way.
Most importantly, thank youfor tuning in, engaging,
(26:48):
and growing with us.
We can't wait to bringyou more insight, stories,
and innovations in the episodes ahead.
This episode was broughtto you by Stanford CME.
To claim CME forlistening to this episode,
click on the Claim CME link below
or visit medcast.stanford.edu.
Check back for new episodes
by subscribing to "Stanford Medcast"
(27:09):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
(ethereal music)
(bright music)
(00:06):
- Welcome to "Stanford Medcast,"
the podcast from Stanford CME
that brings you the latest insights
from the world's leadingphysicians and scientists.
If you're joining us for the first time,
be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcast,
Amazon Music, Spotify, or YouTube
to stay updated with our newest episodes.
I am your host, Dr. Ruth Adewuya.
(00:26):
Today is a milestonefor "Stanford Medcast."
It is our hundredth episode.
Over the years, we'veexplored cutting-edge science,
groundbreaking medical advancements,
and the voices shaping healthcare.
Whether you've been with us from the start
or just tuning in, thank you so much
for being a part of this journey.
In this episode, we arecelebrating women in medicine
(00:47):
and I'm thrilled tochat with Dr. Maya Adam,
who is a clinical associate professor
in the Department of Pediatrics
at Stanford School of Medicine,
where she is the Directorof Health Media Innovation
and the Associate Director ofthe Center for Digital Health.
Her work centers on developing
and evaluating innovativevideo-based educational approaches
to global health communication,
(01:08):
particularly in maternal and child health,
nutrition, mental healthand disease prevention.
She received her undergraduate degree
in human biology from Stanford,
her medical degree from theUniversity of British Columbia,
and her doctoral research degree
from the Heidelberg University Institute
of Global Health in Germany.
Dr. Adam has contributed
to numerous peer-reviewed articles
(01:29):
focusing on the effectiveness
of digital health interventions.
She recently launched the"Health Compass" podcast
where she interviewedStanford Medicine experts
to break down complex healthtopics for the general public.
Thank you so much forchatting with me today.
- It's such a pleasure to be here
and it's lovely to be on thisend of the interview, Ruth.
- I love that.
It's always fun to switch roles
(01:50):
and I'm really thrilled to have you here.
Your journey from professional dancer
to health educator andresearcher is truly unique.
Can you share how thistransition came about?
- It has definitely beenan adventure for me.
I believed throughout my childhood
that I wanted to be aprofessional ballet dancer.
(02:10):
I had absolutely noplans to go to college.
I just wanted to be on astage for the rest of my life.
I have two parents who are academics.
My mother is originallyIndian South African.
She had to leave South Africa
during the apartheid years
when mixed-race marriageswere forbidden by law.
(02:31):
My parents ended up raising us in Canada.
As academics they were not thrilled
that they had moved across the world
to offer their childrena better opportunity
and their daughter wantedto become a dancer.
But after high school, they agreed
that I could take a gap year.
In that year, I was admittedto a ballet academy in Germany
(02:54):
that was supposed to be one of the best.
That year ended up being a decade.
The interesting thingfor me about that career,
I had always been aware ofknowing what it feels like
to be the different one in the room,
and where I ended up performing
was in the former East Germany
at one of the big state theaters,
(03:15):
which in the early 1990s
was an all-blonde balletcompany, and then there was me.
They also noticed
that I was always being typecastin the classical ballets,
what was then known as "the gypsy."
There'd always be a gypsy role.
There'd always be a prostituteor an Arabian dancer,
(03:36):
and that would inevitably be me
and I would never get thechance to dance Juliet or Clara.
That was an awakening for me.
Over time, thankfully, thecompany became more diverse
and I got a chance to dancesome of the other roles
that I had dreamed of dancing.
But it was interesting for me
because it made me aware of two things.
(03:58):
One, is how much better our world is
when there's diversityin everything we do.
Secondly, the power of being able
to engage an audience withauthentic storytelling.
That is something very magical
because even the mosttechnically skilled dancers
in the theater, theycouldn't fill an audience
(04:21):
and keep them in their seats
the way that the maybeimperfect dancers could,
if they could tell a storyand engage the audience.
That is something that I'vepulled into my career today
and the things that I dowith digital storytelling.
- I resonate deeply withyour story as an immigrant,
navigating the balance offollowing one's passion,
(04:45):
but as a Nigerian immigrantalso having approved paths
of professions that you can enter.
But your journey ofbeing able to pursue that
and blend creativityfrom your dance career
and how it then impacted the work
that you're doing in digitalhealth education is inspiring.
To dive deeper into that,I would love for you
(05:06):
to just chat about what inspired you
to focus on digital health education
since you made that transition.
- I was 10 years later than everybody else
in my pursuit of a medical degree.
I started undergrad at the age of 27.
I started med school atthe age of 30, almost 31,
(05:27):
already married and pregnantwith our first child.
It brought me to the decisionnot to do a residency
because I finished medicalschool with a 3 year old
and a three month old andpretty sleep deprived.
I remember thinking, "I'mgonna find something to do
with my medical degree and loveof teaching, communicating,
(05:47):
and engaging an audience."
I found a passion in teaching
because teaching is like performing.
If you can keep thatclass engaged or laughing
or you can move them with storytelling,
you can convey ideas.
I started teaching at Stanford
in the Human Biology program in 2009,
and then in 2011,
(06:10):
there was this explosionof online learning.
In those days, it was the MOOC,
the massive open online course
that everybody thoughtwould democratize education
and allow us to buildbridges to communities
that had previously lackedaccess to higher education.
I started making MOOCs.
I was bringing thisacademic medical career
(06:33):
in online teaching and health education.
We ended up making eightmassive open online courses.
The MOOC wave subsided
and we moved into the pandemic,
which brought these new challenges
of how can we get healthmessages out instantaneously
and how can they be used to cross cultures
(06:54):
and language barriers,
literacy barriers, educational barriers.
We had to reinvent ourselves
and I was given an opportunity
to start the Global HealthMedia Innovation Lab
that I currently run.
That lab focuses on designing scalable,
short-form health communication media
(07:15):
that can go viral on social media
to reach the people thatwe need to reach the most
on the platforms
where they're already investingtime consuming content.
- I really appreciatehow central storytelling
and accessibility are to your work
and how you've leveragedyour clinical education
to pivot into this important space.
(07:36):
It would be great to spendsome time discussing some
of the unique projectsthat you've taken on.
There are many, but perhapsyou could highlight one
that stands out in terms of the impact
of animated storytelling.
- We're currently runninga large-scale online RCT
to start creating a mental health series
using our short animatedstorytelling approach,
(07:59):
which is very short,wordless, animated films
that can scale and cross cultures
and meant to be engagingeven though they're wordless
because they have greatvisual storytelling
and compelling soundtracks.
We were making this mental health series,
one of our brilliantaddiction medicine specialists
(08:19):
at Stanford approached me and said,
"You have to have a videoon addiction in the series
because there's so many cases
where these problems arecombined mental health problems
and addiction problems."
I thought, "Great, but how do we do that?"
There's this phenomenon called reactance
where when we feel that somebody's message
(08:40):
is threatening our freedom
or threatening to take awaysomething we depend on,
we want to ignore that message
and in fact engage evenmore in the behavior
that the message is warning us not to do.
The minute we showrepresentation of a human
that's engaging in addictive behaviors,
then people who may besuffering with addiction
(09:00):
may turn away and notengage with that content.
We thought for a long time
and talked to a lot of peoplein the animation industry,
and we came up with anidea to use an analogy
and to make this happen underwater.
It ended up being thestory of a young fish
who sees this shimmeringsubstance underwater
(09:22):
and is curious about it.
That fish ends up trying the substance,
ends up getting hooked on the substance,
and ends up being saved by an older fish.
In that younger fish's moment of shame,
when he turns around andthere's a gash in his lip
because he's been torn free from the hook,
the older fish turns around
and you see that the olderfish has that same scar.
(09:45):
It's a moment of empathy
and the message to theviewer that you're not alone.
It's a message that there's help out there
and it's a message that becoming addicted
is not the fault of theperson with the problem.
Often there's this societal belief
that somebody is very much at fault
if they become addicted to something.
(10:06):
We know that that's not the case.
We've decided to do a trial
and we were offered fundingto do a three-country trial
with more than 13,000 people
to see if this approachcould really cross borders
and cross global regions.
Even in the pilot populationwhich had 600 people,
we've seen significantresults in terms of lowering
(10:29):
of addiction stigma in the participants.
I'm super excited to launchthe larger-scale trial.
- Thank you for sharing that example.
I really appreciate how you'rebringing education to life
through this powerful blendof theatrical storytelling
and visual narrative.
Your background in dance seems
to have naturallyinfluenced the way you think
(10:50):
about movement and rhythmand emotion in storytelling,
and on the research side,I'm really intrigued
by the large-scaletrial you're conducting.
You mentioned seeing promisingresults in your pilot study.
What methods are you using
to assess the effectivenessof these videos
and how do you determine whetherthe storytelling approach
is shifting perceptionsand reducing stigma?
(11:11):
- We use large-scale online trials.
Because this is an online intervention,
it's appropriate to use anaudience as our test population
that is engaged online
because since we disseminateour content via social media,
our target audience is anaudience that is engaged online.
(11:33):
Luckily and unluckily.
Many, many, many people around the world
have access to a smartphoneand are on social media
or some platform where theycan receive these messages.
What we do is we use onlinerecruitment platforms,
ones that are highly regardedin the academic community,
we engage with those platforms
(11:53):
to recruit participant populations
across different global regionsand then randomize them.
We collect baseline data from everyone
to see where they are.
We wanna make sure that, for example,
baseline addiction stigma issimilar across two groups.
Then we may have, let's say a third group
where we take the sound away
(12:15):
and we wanna test whether it's the visual
or whether it's the visual with the sound
that is having the effect.
The intervention groupwill see the content
and then respond tosome validated measures
of addiction stigma,
and the control group will havesome form of active control,
either what we call anattention placebo control,
(12:37):
which is another video that'sunrelated to addiction stigma
or some form of writteninformational material
that's not storytelling
because what we wanna know is,
does this approach towordless storytelling,
with and without soundtrack,
is there some sort of catalyst there
that can shift the way people think
(12:58):
about a certain topic like addiction?
By comparing the changesacross the two groups
from baseline to post exposure
and then also following up.
We usually have quitea nice retention rate
where we get more than 80% ofthe participants coming back.
That lets us learn aboutwhat's working and what's not.
(13:19):
We publish our findings,
can also help otherintervention developers
and other researchers
as they develop their healthcommunication interventions.
- It's really great to seesuch a rigorous approach
applied to health communicationand education research,
especially in a global context.
The way you're measuring tangible impact
(13:41):
through storytelling isan important contribution
to the field.
That leads me to my next question.
I came across one of yourpublications on using storytelling
to improve dietary sodium literacy,
and I'd love to hear more about that work.
Based on your research and experience,
how do you see storytelling playing a role
(14:01):
in enhancing public health education?
- It has to do withestablishing connections.
Before we can try andinfluence the way people think,
we need to establish a connection to them.
That bridge can be builtthrough storytelling
and through the emotionsthat storytelling evokes.
For example, if we can make people laugh
(14:23):
or if we can make them, even for a moment,
feel inspiration or be moved by a story,
then we have an open communication channel
for sending our message.
We've often used things like humor
to convey vaccine promotion messages.
For the sodium study that you mentioned,
the intervention is humorous.
(14:45):
It's the story of a heartthat wakes its owner up
and says, "Hey, man, I'm quitting.
I'm under so pressurebecause your diet is terrible
and there's way too much salt in it,"
and the guy is like, "What is going on?
Like, is my heart talking to me?"
And has to learn within three minutes,
which is the length of the intervention,
(15:05):
that this is what's going on.
These are the foodsthat are high in sodium
that maybe one should reduce in the diet.
Then at the end, they make a pact
that the guy is gonnastart improving his diet
and eating less sodium
and the heart is not gonna quit on him.
It's an analogy to somethingthat's scientifically based,
but it's delivered in a way
(15:25):
that's humorous and lighthearted.
Another thing we were able
to move the needle on in that study
is something calledbehavioral expectation,
which is the closest we can get
without doing long-term studies.
We can ask people, "Given allof the barriers that exist,
how likely is it that you will be able
to reduce the sodium in your diet?"
(15:48):
On follow up we can also ask people
how successful they were at doing that.
Those are the ways in whichwe try and gather information
about whether or not theseinterventions are working.
- It's clear that storytellingis a powerful tool,
especially when it's crafted in a way
that's both memorableand emotionally resonant.
(16:08):
Your work really highlightshow these creative approaches
can make complex health messages
more accessible and impactful.
Building on that, I'd loveto shift the conversation
to digital platforms.
They offer incredible opportunitiesfor reaching audiences,
but also present challenges,
particularly when it comesto health misinformation.
From your perspective, how can media,
(16:30):
especially digital platforms,
be leveraged to combat misinformation
and ensure accuratescience-based messaging
reaches the public?
- A, they're part of the problem,
and B, they're part of the solution.
There's no clear answer there.
These social media filter bubblesthat we find ourselves in,
I don't think people are aware
(16:51):
of being surrounded within an echo chamber
of people who all believe the same thing.
How quickly that can make you believe
that what you think isright is definitely right.
I think it's led to a lotof problems in our society,
not just in terms of theanti-science sentiment
that is very pervasiveright now in the US,
(17:13):
but also the political polarization
where we're not seeing any common ground
with the other side.
At the same time, the realityis that most Americans
of a certain age are goingto be seeking information
and consuming informationvia these platforms.
If we fail to get on there
(17:35):
and put the science-based stuff there,
then we're missing anopportunity to inform people
in a way that is validatedand evidence-based.
We do have a responsibility
to engage on those platformslong as they're being used
because it's a channel to reach people
that we will otherwise fail to reach.
(17:56):
- That is such an important point.
Staying engaged in this space
and actively seeking opportunities
to be part of the solution is critical.
I'm curious about your perspective
on the specific role researchersshould play in this effort.
What are some tangible waysresearchers can contribute
to digital media content
while ensuring that they'repart of the solution
(18:17):
rather than unintentionallycontributing to the problem?
- Researchers and publichealth advocates and teachers,
as long as the information
that they're presenting is evidence-based,
the only other thing that needs to happen
is that it needs to be presented in a way
that reaches its audience.
(18:39):
Sometimes, unfortunately, when people
are experts in a field, theyforget that their audiences
is non-expert in that field.
They end up presenting things in a way
that's appropriate fortheir understanding,
but might fail to meet the audience
that they're trying to reach.
Going from the perspective, isthis message evidence-based?
(19:00):
Are we sure this is trueand has been proven?
Then if we wanna communicatethis to a certain audience,
where is that audience?
Where do they consume their information?
Where are they in terms of theirunderstanding of this issue
and how can I presentthe information in a way
that truly meets them where they are?
(19:20):
- Your point about bringing
the human element intostorytelling is so key
and it's something that reallycomes through in your work.
I'd love to hear more aboutyour podcast, "Health Compass,"
because it seems like a perfect example
of how you bring these stories to life.
- "Health Compass" was the brainchild
of the Communicationsteam at Stanford Medicine.
(19:43):
We have all these amazingresearchers at Stanford Medicine
and for these researchers,they have fascinating stories
how they came to be doingthe work that they're doing.
I think part of the barrierto understanding the research
is a feeling thatresearchers are so educated
that maybe because wedon't know their story,
(20:05):
we can't access theresearch that they're doing.
The thinking was tohumanize medical research
and health science by gettingto know the researchers
that are doing this amazing work
and then also having themexplain, in their own words,
the research that they're doing.
Each of the interviewsI've had has brought me
(20:25):
so much insight into an area
in which I'm a non-expertmost of the time,
and also in terms of humanizingthese fantastic colleagues
and hearing what motivates them,
what keeps them going on the days
when they get tired or feel stressed,
how do they continueto pursue their goals?
(20:46):
These are lessons thatwe can all learn from.
- I think it's an incredible initiative
and I really appreciate howpodcasts like yours and mine
create space to share impactful stories
directly from experts.
One of the reasons westarted "Stanford Medcast"
is to bring these important conversations
to clinicians amid their busy schedules,
(21:07):
and it has only reinforced my belief
that storytelling is a powerful tool
not just in shaping health communication,
but also in advancing medical education.
I would love to hear your thoughts
on how the increasing role of women
in digital health and health communication
is reshaping the way we approachpublic health challenges.
(21:29):
- In general, increasing diversity,
whether it's gender diversity,racial and ethnic diversity,
or diversity of abilities and experiences,
the more diversity we bring to the table,
the better we can see the whole picture.
Somebody described itto me once as a puzzle.
Unless you have all of the puzzle pieces,
(21:51):
you can't see what theimage is meant to portray.
When we lack diversity inour communication initiatives
or in our research, we havethese gaping holes in the puzzle
that prevent us fromseeing the bigger picture.
It's wonderful to have a greaterrepresentation from women.
I'm a proponent of having all genders
(22:14):
and all races andethnicities and abilities
and people from different countries
and walks of life come together
because there is then texture
and perspectives thatinform that bigger picture.
- I resonate with that analogy of a puzzle
and it's such a powerful way
to think about the importanceof diversity overall,
(22:35):
not just in healthcommunication and research,
and how when we're missing perspectives,
we're missing essentialpieces of a bigger picture,
which ultimately affects howeffective our messaging can be.
Building on that idea ofinclusivity and impact,
I'd love to hear your thoughtson innovation in this space.
(22:55):
What advice would you offer
to those who are lookingto push the boundaries
of health communication and global health?
- Follow your passion.
The approach you take
is something you have tobe very excited about.
Don't start a podcast
if you're not passionate about podcasts
and don't start creatinganimated short video content
(23:15):
if you don't like animation.
It has to be something that excites you.
With products, if you don't love it,
people are gonna sensethat you don't love it
and they won't love it either.
You have to love theapproach that you're taking
and then you have togather the right team.
You have to find people that you respect
and enjoy working with
(23:36):
that are going to support you
both in creating thehealth communication tools
that you're gonna create
and also people that arehelp you realistically test,
even if it's hard, revise, goback, change your approach.
If it's not working, try something new.
Sometimes in academia, we fear failure
(23:56):
because we think "If this trial fails,
it's gonna be so embarrassing.
I have to publish a papersaying, 'There was no effect.'"
That's progress.
That's amazing becausethat gives us information.
Being fearless about failure,
being ready to rapidlyiterate and reiterate
and gather feedback, evenif it's tough feedback,
(24:17):
and then work with a teamthat will be honest with you,
but will also have your backand help you to move forward
and pivot when needed.
Those are the keys
that I have found have supportedmy work over the years.
- That's excellent advice
and it's so applicable toeverything we do in this space.
As we look toward the future,
(24:37):
I'd love to hear your thoughts
on how technologicaladvancements will continue
to shape digital health education.
What innovations do you see on the horizon
that could further transformthe way we communicate
and educate in healthcare?
- That's a really timely question.
We are in the midst of a lotof discussions around AI,
and I sit in on a lot of discussions
(25:00):
where people are debating
whether AI is gonna begood or bad for our future.
In some ways, AI is like a tool
in that if you picture a hammer.
In the hands of somebodywho knows what they're doing
and who has good intentions,a hammer can be used
to build the most phenomenal things.
(25:22):
In the hands of somebodywith bad intentions,
a hammer can be a weapon.
Whether AI is gonna begood or bad for our future
depends on how good or bad are the people
that are using AI to shape our future.
And often bad actorsare not gonna hesitate
to pick up that tool and start using it.
(25:42):
The onus is on us
to learn how to use thesedigital innovations like AI
to put them to use for good in society
and model that kind of applicationof digital technologies
so that the space doesn'tfill up with bad actors
who are gonna use itfor the wrong purposes.
- What a wonderful analogyfor thinking about AI,
(26:05):
not just in digital health communication,
but across all the spaceswhere AI is being integrated.
It's exciting to see how wecan continue leveraging AI
to meet people where they are,
which is truly the essence of this work.
Maya, thank you for sharing your insights
and expertise with us today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
(26:26):
- It has been great to chat,Ruth. Thank you so much.
- As we wrap up our hundredth episode,
I want to take a momentto express my gratitude.
Reaching this milestone is a testament
to the power of storytelling,learning, and curiosity,
and to the incredible guests
who have shared theirexpertise along the way.
Most importantly, thank youfor tuning in, engaging,
(26:48):
and growing with us.
We can't wait to bringyou more insight, stories,
and innovations in the episodes ahead.
This episode was broughtto you by Stanford CME.
To claim CME forlistening to this episode,
click on the Claim CME link below
or visit medcast.stanford.edu.
Check back for new episodes
by subscribing to "Stanford Medcast"
(27:09):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
(ethereal music)
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