LIVE from Grand Canyon: Turning the Park Dark

In this special episode of Star Stuff recorded live from Grand Canyon National Park, we’re joined by former Astronomer in Residence and Lowell Observatory Public Information Officer Kevin Schindler, Grand […]

The post LIVE from Grand Canyon: Turning the Park Dark appeared first on Lowell Observatory.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This is a vol observatory podcast.
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of
Star stuff. My name is Kevin Sc, and
I'm the historian in public Information off or
Lo observatory. And I'm joined by my good

(00:22):
friends.
Raider Lane, the Dark sky manager at Grand
Canyon National Park and Clover More morale, the
residency program manager with Grand Canyon.
Welcome both of you.
Thank you. Today, we're gonna talk about some
stuff that's really close to our hearts on
those dark skies with as well as the
Astronomer residents program. Mh. So to get things
start, let's just... For those not familiar with

(00:44):
you too,
first boo on you. A second.
Second, Raider, how long have you've been here
at Grand Canyon.
I've been wearing with the park for
14 years and
and Employed during that time. Yeah. Yeah.
And and
the... I've been working closely with Dark skies
here, for about 8 of those years. And

(01:06):
I might add 1 of the leading push
areas for Grand Canyon National Park. To get
the Dark sky status?
Yeah. 1 of the 1 of the bulldog
ons for sure. Yeah. Well, thanks for that.
You've bad. Hey, Clover, how about you? How
long have you been working at Grand Canyon?
Well, I've been here just under 2 years.
I was the first program manager hired for
the artist and residence and the astronomer and
residence program.

(01:28):
I came here after 25 years in Chicago,
so it's a very different experience,
and it's just been it's been incredible bowl.
So when we talk about dark skies here,
for you, they really are dark. They really
are dark. Yeah. Yes. And, yes, very significant
animal way that I
didn't really understand until I got here. Yeah.

(01:49):
A place of inspiration for sure. Yeah. Way
And ray ray, you... You're... Of course, involved
with us a lot with the programming side.
Mh. So what what do astronomers residents typically
do on with
and Well, I mean, as Clover saying, like,
the goal of the programs to...
In a lot of ways,
create a hole that's greater than the some
of it parts, you know, we are looking

(02:10):
at
dark skies,
the threats of light, pollution, the benefits of
Pristine natural darkness from several different angles. So
it's not like a traditional program. Yes. You
know, where you have...
I mean, it it is in many ways,
but in many ways, it's not where you
have you know,
the astronomer coming and
providing lectures to the public. I mean, that's

(02:31):
that's 1 aspect of of the program. But,
of course,
as Clover saying, we've had, you know, Lauren
Camp who's
the the poet oriented of new Mexico so
no now. She
came here and did a residency
writing poems about the the Grand Canyon. She
was so prolific
you know, in her in her time that
she was able to publish some work

(02:53):
based on program
poems,
about the night skies over Grand Canyon.
Astro photographers, you know, in Ema, She's a
an a, a an Alumni who came and
and did
incredibly beautiful
of photographs of the night skies,
and all sorts of other people from diff...

(03:13):
Coming at dark skies and light pollution from
from photographs slightly different angles. And then when
you kinda step back and you you see
the...
All the alumni who have who have
contributed to this understanding of of dark skies.
You you start to realize just how
how diverse dark skies is just how
sort of integral it is to all aspects

(03:34):
of our lives. I mean,
doctor Ad dean Dent, for example, She did...
She came here and she did a residency
of of public programs, but she also did
in interpretive dance piece.
She's an astrophysicist physicist, but she's a she's
a modern dancer as well. And so she
she came and she
by living here at the Canyon invert camps

(03:54):
and really just
letting the canyon see into your poor, she
was able to
to hike down to the bottom the came
to hike back up, do a bunch of
public presentations turn out her experience through dance,
and we have that awarded, and she she
did public presentations on it.
And so
that's the really fun aspect of this program

(04:15):
boarded is is being able to see people
like yourself, you know, come here and do
incredible
recreation photo projects of the Apollo Astronauts, you
know, taking their incredible trip down to the
body of the canyon in preparation for their
foray on the lunar surface and and and
recreating those shots and putting them side by
side
on those type of things just give you

(04:35):
so many
incredible insights about
dark skies and its place in not only
science but
as well. So that's that's what excites me
the most about. And that's something that really
struck me when I was fortunate enough to
do the program and up doing it again.
As an alumni. Yeah. Yeah. And that's great.
But is mean, you guys were brilliance in
putting this together
because I I didn't quite get the gist

(04:57):
of that until being here for a little
bit. And this is such a human experience.
Of seeing the dark sky. Mh. And connecting
with the universe, and it's a little bit
different for all of us because wired differently.
Right. And to have artists and scientists and
historians and and musicians and others
interpret in their way. It makes it more
accessible,

(05:17):
for the rest of humanity. Right and and
the the stuff they're they're doing like, the
first astronomer residence on Tyler Na Yeah. Who
who
came up with the coin coin the phrase
half the park after her. Come right there.
I'm back here. And it's brilliance and yeah.
And it really captures
the Grand Canyon,
that holy, you... During the daytime,

(05:39):
this is a phenomenal destination. Yeah. It is
a nighttime also.
Yeah. 1 of the things that I love
about the program to, which you mentioned is,
like, Tyler produced. This print. Yep. Which now
continues to be
purchased and placed in homes everywhere to raise
awareness, and that also, most of the astronomers
that we have had in residents are producing

(06:02):
something with the work that they've done here
because of their love for astronomy and dark
skies.
And so we've got, you know, books that
you have written as a result of being
here and the book of poems, in old
sky that Lauren
Camp wrote and Dean Dent after she left,
she wrote an article for Dance magazine

(06:22):
about an her
relationship to
understanding space, and the astronaut,
how they move in relationship to. Dance. And
that chore.
So those inner
connections and then how it lives beyond the
park
I think is really wonderful. And and it's...

(06:42):
And
there's also been a lot of great residents
who... Of broad,
their expertise in education and outreach as well.
Right? So it's there's there's this incredible artistic
aspect. And I think that's 1 of the
reasons of why Clover is such a strong
program manager for this is because she comes
from,
you know, that artist and residents type of

(07:03):
a background, man. And so she's able to
really infuse this this this this beautiful creativity
that comes
a typically an artisan resonance programs
into the astronomer residence program and get really
people thinking about
dark skies through that that lens. So we
have that whole aspect of it. But then
we've had an, you know, incredible alumni, like

(07:26):
you know, doctor Cameron Hu and,
doctor Daniel Fl and, you know, Dean Reg
shout out to everybody,
who have come and have given
the park,
just
insights into how to connect to the public.
I mean, doctor Jennifer Hoffman, for example, she
did this incredible
project where she she went out to the

(07:47):
rim at sunset every night, I had to
hop points. Like, 1 of the most popular
views for sunset.
And, you know, during the E,
you know, the sun every night is moving
really
far, you know, along the asthma of the
along the horizon, and she
set up this tripod in the same place
every night. She was inviting visitors to set
up their own cameras and take... Pictures of

(08:10):
the setting sun around the same time, and
then she's
stitching them together to show
how the sun moves, very fast along the
horizon
on the E, and that's just... She was
engaging with people directly on the ground in
this pop up way
you know, there was snow on the ground
here and there so she was bundled up
in in her in her warm clothes, but,

(08:32):
you know, she really in she's... You know,
you know, somebody is...
You know, directing an observatory up in Colorado,
but she's she's she's able to come here
and just just and bring astronomy down to
folks like us. And and it's just a
really beautiful thing. So just I just love
that confluence of science and culture that and

(08:53):
and art that this this residency program has
been a hold provide. And when you have...
When you have visitors that can participate directly,
that it just rings true with them. It's
more than just watching somebody else do it.
Right they do it themselves, they become part
of it. Yes. Right. It was really exciting
to see her set up you know, just
a telescope that was looking at the moon
to have people see the moon for the

(09:14):
very first time during their visit to the
Grand Canyon, which for most people is also
fur... Yep. And that was a really moving
experience to watch people. I also have that
additional,
level of relationships. Mh. So this is this
is obviously a synergistic synergistic program, Grand Canyon
National Park, Grand Canyon cons.
What's this the connection between the 2? And

(09:36):
and how did this... How did it evolve
from the original funding source doesn't were to
these programs?
Well, that's a really good question. So, there
was a,
a researcher here named Eddie Mc mcgee, who
decided that he wanted to find a way
to support the park and its efforts.
So he established the Grand Canyon

(09:57):
association. I believe it was first called.
History association. Okay. History. That was the piece
that was things. We just found some,
notes from, like, 19 35 or so.
That were related to the organization. The very
these beginning. See.
Anyway, I think it was established,
yeah. 19 35.
And
so that organization has grown over time to

(10:20):
be able to serve the park and all
of its priority projects.
I am not completely sure how the field
institute came a part of our programming. But
the field institute is 1 of our mission
based programs and the residency as the other
mission based premium program.
So where you look at these now as
an opportunity for us to really,

(10:43):
help people cherish
a the Grand Canyon. In addition to, you
know, changing the hearts and minds of the
people who are here to understand why
preservation of the park and the dark skies
are important among other things. And,
the Sorry. It's been a great partnership what

(11:03):
I say Yeah.
And Greg Canyon service been integral in
in in supporting some of the these park
priorities. And, you know, the thing about
dark skies is,
you know, wasn't always
necessarily... I mean, in history Grand Canyon, AAA
park priority. I mean, it's it's interesting, you

(11:24):
know, I was I was thinking as Clover
was saying history you know, this was started
back in in the 19 thirties, by adding
the Kia Park Ranger.
There are some early what are called Grand
Canyon in nature notes.
The, you know, 1 of the first interpretive
offerings
from the National Park service. And, you know,
there's even there's there's a little article in
in the nature notes of when Grand canyon

(11:45):
Natural History Association was was started. But another
thing in those early nature notes was
were
articles from early park rangers talking about
Saturn up in the nice sky or a
lunar Rainbow Yeah or
seeing the Aurora from from Grand Canyon with

(12:07):
those price.
There's some really early gems in there, but
the really interesting thing about it is if
you think about that, all of the things
that they were saying
early on, were more like what I like
to call the charismatic mega of the night.
Right? It's like, the things about the moon
or planets or things like that where

(12:28):
it was interesting to talk about these these
astronomical
phenomena guy in the in the context of
Grand Canyon, but you you don't see
talk about
being able to see andromeda with the naked
eye, Yep. Or being able to see the
milky way with the naked eye because back
in the 19 twenties, that was more or
less ubiquitous with everybody did. Yeah. Throughout the

(12:50):
United States. In and so it it was
it was more of a novelty to talk
about seeing things like Saturn in the moon
at the Grand Canyon. It was only about
the 19 sixties or seventies.
That
became,
you know, a coin as a term. Yeah.
And
star parties started to be seated in different
national parks. You know, the first iteration of

(13:11):
Grand Canyon and Star party was actually seated
here in the mid 19 seventies by,
none other than John Do, you you know,
the the founder of the creator of the
famous Do telescope, which is now a standard
telescope on all that star party fields,
and and and the
appreciation for pristine natural darkness started to take

(13:34):
hold.
And so from there, we slowly started to
integrate
dark skies
into
the national parks because we quickly started realize
from the 19 seventies onward that some of
the last
san
for Pristine natural darkness are happened to be
found in these mass of, you know, protected

(13:55):
spaces.
Yeah. And and and so
as about the nineties is when the park
service to started to really cod
dark skies as a as a resource worth
protecting. You know, we came up with the
the a national park nights Guy's team in
19 99,
which is basically comprised of 2 people.

(14:15):
And know it was about the the, 2010
around that
that was finally turned into a a proper
division in the national Park service called the
natural sounds and night sky divisions. Like, there's
there's 3 things. That's as there's like, a...
There's this entire division in the parks that
are... That that is dedicated to this these

(14:36):
more
and you know, intangible, ne type of resources.
Matching it's a really beautiful idea, and it
was it was really around that time that
a lot of
cooperating
associations like Grand canyon
and working together with their their respective national
parks
started to raise

(14:56):
funds and start programs like
the astronomer residence program,
to to meet that growing need
Yeah. So when you got here, that was
starting,
that effort was starting in the grand Canyon.
Right. Right. But it was still kind of
in the early days of the Grand Canyon
of...
More than just
mentioning it. I mean... Yeah. I here are
actively starting to do some... Yeah. You know,

(15:19):
you have... I've done a lot of research
into this.
Shockingly way enough. And and, you know, you
you you you do have rangers
you know, as early as the 19 fifties
and sixties,
giving campfire fire programs about the night skies.
But that's just, you know, personality based rangers
doing this that or the other, But you're

(15:39):
absolutely right. It was about
so it was about 2000,
you know, 10 ish where we really starting
to make. This push
to to to make dark skies
sort of AAA found... 1 of the foundational
resources that that, this park offers among the
many others. Right? The geology, the, you know,

(15:59):
the indigenous peoples hear the history,
the the ecology,
you know, we... We're starting to understand nice
guys
in that same realm now. Which a big,
a big victory for the movement. And that
was a time also when we're looking forward
to the centennial park service as well as
Grand Canyon as a national park. Right. And
so was that tied in with those kind

(16:21):
of celebrations with... This is coming up in
a few years, Yeah. So the the the
park service... So the park service started in
19 16.
And so our Centennial was 2016.
About 5 years prior to that 2011,
the park service came out with a a
document,
called a call to action, and it in

(16:42):
it outlines the next hundred years of stewardship
in the Natural Park service. And there's about
a Can't remember how many bullet points, Maybe
a hundred bullet points,
of, of different areas that we really wanna
focus on. And number 27
was
titled starry starry night, and it was about,
you know, leading the way and protecting

(17:03):
dark skies, nationwide,
developing
cooperative with different agencies,
you know, the the the the Colorado Plateau
Dark skies, cooperative. Mh. The basin range, dark
skies is cooperative, which works with
different federal entities and private,
public, you know,
entities
to work in dark skies on that more

(17:25):
whole. Stick level. And so that's that's precisely
when that type type of stuff
started to happen. And
and it's only taken off from there. I
think it's like, oh. Yeah. You can... As
you can attest to,
you know,
Dark skies programs
fascinating
are...
I the most popular programs in the park.
I mean Mean, you... You... If you have,

(17:46):
say, 50 people at a geology talk, you're
gonna have 250
people that. Right. A nice sky talk. And
that's not to diminish the grandeur and beauty
of
Grand Canyon geology. I mean, it's just... It's
it's more of a testament to add
just the hunger that people have for experiencing
something that is

(18:07):
increasingly
disappearing from our life lives.
Yeah. I didn't realize
until I hear what a privilege it is.
Mh. You know, what a resource it is,
And I... You know, and you don't know
until...
You,
have the opportunity really to see what the
difference is Mh. After having lived lived in
Chicago for 25 years you know I'm coming
here. And and, being able to see the

(18:29):
milky way with the naked eye, and it's
just incredible
And...
Yeah. 80 percent of the world lives in
a place that you can't see the milky
way. Mh. And so if we have this
a little observatory to South of the Grand
Canyon that, you know, these dark skies we
have here people are stunned.
And I think that's 1 of the great
things that Grand Canyon they're... Certainly, as time
goes on, there's more awareness about the programs

(18:52):
that you guys are doing, but they're still...
You talk to folks at night and they're
just... They're just stunned. I had no idea.
Yeah. They're expecting to see some really cool
rock layers during the daytime. That no idea
that there is this bonus,
at nighttime. Yeah. And and, you know, 1
thing we always love talking about is, it
mean, the... This park when we

(19:12):
first started to pursue international dark. Die park
certification.
You know, we we we took some initial
measurements of the park measuring the the quality
of the Night skies. And it was it
was already...
They.
Yeah. It was a pretty I mean, very,
very dark side already.
And... But I I always love mentioning, you

(19:34):
know, that the the the the efforts that
this park took to
to certify as an international dark by park
because Mh. You know, this is
this is such a unique location in many
ways because, you know, were there only national
park in the entire country with a k
through 12 school inside it's borders. Hey No.
Yeah. So it's it's as much a community

(19:58):
as it is, a national park,
And so we when when we initially
grand canyon cons
provided the funding to hire a night skies
inventory special, like, a lighting inventory special basically.
Back in 2013,
and she went around the park and she
basically
marked every single

(20:19):
fixture in the park. It took, like, almost
2 years. That's a project. It's a project.
And It that included down
the fan ranch. It included Fan Ranch, desert
view, the north rim, even the the 4
lonely lights out in.
A tour we've valley, which is, you know,
there's there's 1 ranger,
shout out to Todd Ce, who who, who

(20:41):
who works out there,
he
but that that is... That ranger station is
totally off the grid, you know, produces it
gets its own water. Its own lecture City,
and he manages this massive amount of space
out there, and there are 4 little lights
on his. Say. We went out there and
make sure they got retrofit the but it
ended up all told being 5094

(21:02):
lights, which in terms of,
you know, this the scale of... The the
retrofit process
for Dark Sky park has been un... It's
it is unprecedented. Yeah.
And so it's the and so it it's
it's been this massive undertaking, and, you know,
that whole process is fascinating. I mean, we
can get into the the... Nuts a bolt

(21:22):
that, but it's I just wanted to introduce
that as an idea because
it takes a lot of work to preserve
natural dark. Sides out.
So and a lot of and a lot
of support and and funding from
grand Kenny consultancy and its members and donors
and
and so,
we we we are celebrating and continue to

(21:43):
celebrate that,
in a international dark sky park in 2019,
and and the work's not done. We're still
we're still working at it, but it's it's
been a massive undertaking. So they... So that
coming international Dark sky association now called. I
think it's Dark sky. Dark sky International. Yeah.
They changed the names to make it easier
to talk about it. Thank. Right. So they

(22:04):
have a pretty strict
series of things you have to check off
list. Right. To be a Dark sky Park
or Dark sky community or whatever.
And in several phases. Right? And so where
are you in the in this... Now? You're
kind of on the home stretch. Right? Yeah.
So...
It's a it's a really fascinating process. You
have to... When you want you apply to
the, the

(22:25):
certification, you have to show Dark sky International
before... In international dark Sky park, that you
have retrofit 2 thirds of your lights. So
67
percent of our lights,
I'm in out of 5000. That's that's a
big chunk. Right? So happily we had about
34 percent of our lights already dark sky
from. May just bite by happens stands. The

(22:46):
the the guidelines are, you know, a certain
amount of Kelvin. They have to put out,
you know, they have to be shielded,
this that and the other. So 34 percent
of those met met those guidelines.
That means we had to actively retrofit about
1700
lights or so.
Just to become an international dark Scott Park.
And we did that
in in June of 2019

(23:08):
which gave us that certification. But as you
said,
we have... From that day, you have 5
years then to make 90 percent of your
lights, dark guy plan. And and that, meant
that we had a 20 20 first, but
again. Yeah. 20 24 bringing this up to
June 20 24 and about 1516
hundred more fixtures. Mh.

(23:29):
We happily
surpassed that my milestone in January of 20
24. So we are 92
percent compliant, something like that 93 percent compliant.
Now, and we have,
you know, 5 more years now to make
those last 10 percent of lights,
Dark sky friendly and

(23:50):
of people wonder, you know, what? Why why
are you celebrating 90 percent. Like, what is
the big? Just wait till a hundred percent?
Like, come
the the big deal is that 90 percent
really does rip a percent, the the bulk
the bulk of the lights in the park,
and and Dark international specifically gives you 10...
5 extra years for that last 10 percent.
Because they're inherently the most difficult lights to.

(24:12):
Yeah. Right? Get the low hanging fruit first.
You get all the hanging fruit, but then
you're dealing with, you know, think about
you know, the clinic lights for our for
our emergency services folks, or, you know, we're
working on the the the... I mentioned we
have a cater 12 school here? There's an
outdoor basketball core that has, you know, flood
lights for the team? It's like, how do
you

(24:32):
provide lights that both
let the teams be able to see the
color of their Jersey
and also be dark sky friendly. So those
type of trickier light, 1 off type of
lights that we're we're we're working on. What,
what's interesting to me with this is because
of the length the time you have... It's
tech technology is changing so fast. Yeah. That
5 years ago, yeah, these these alternates, now

(24:55):
you have new ones. And so, hopefully, that
makes it easier.
As you get closer to the end. And,
the the the tougher ones to deal with
but you have more resources.
Yeah. You know, and flags stuff is... Is
leading the way, I think in a lot
of ways as a international dark Sky place
as the first world's first international dark sad
place, where where you're from
you live currently and and where lowell observatory

(25:17):
is.
Really is... I I think doing a great
job and in, you know, keeping everybody up
to date on those the newest technology, things
like narrow band, Amber lights and those type
of things that
are
are are are incredibly nice guy friendly. And
and so kudos to to

(25:38):
lowell dorian and and the... All the entities
down there at a at flags staff for...
You know, because we all work together in
Northern Arizona here. It's kinda figure out
the the best practices
and 1 1 interesting thing about this that
I think you'd appreciate to Kevin is,
you know, there was a lot of fixtures
here. Up and up in the park that,

(25:59):
you know a lot of people don't think
about this, but, you know, when it comes
to historic structures here. You know, we're we're
sitting in Vi
the patty cams residence, which, you know, as
Clover was saying earlier was was built in
19 o 6.
We're we're on the the the eastern end
of the historic
village, which is an, you know, AAAAA

(26:21):
landmark, a national historic landmark.
And
there are, basically every building here is historic
in some way. And so,
you know, as somebody who appreciates history. 3
and the night skies. You know? It's... As
do I, It's something really interesting to think
about. It's like,
how do you go about retrofit fitting fixtures

(26:42):
on historic buildings. Right? You don't... You you
don't wanna ruin the integrity of exactly that
the building occurs because there's a lot of
fixtures like at Bright angel lodge. If you
ever got come to the Canyon and walk
by, you know, Bright angel launch. The cabin,
they're are these beautiful ornate neat you know,
like, 10
metal,
fixtures that you just you just can't

(27:04):
change out, you know,
to become more nights got friendly. So there's
a lot of little historical things that we
did,
historical
restoration projects that we did during this whole
process to,
both restore the historical integrity of these his...
Of, of these structures, but also improve,
the the the lighting. So there's there's a

(27:25):
lot of, you know, like, the El Our
hotel we were able to,
remake the original fixture that they had originally
installed, and then just put some really,
warm lamps inside them to make a magic.
Yeah. Those type of things are really just
fascinating to me. And I fixed So... Oops,
sorry. Go ahead. No. Good. Good. So I

(27:46):
have a question which turns it just still...
A little bit.
Which is that... I mean, since I've been
here, I have loved learning about all of
this. Because this is new for me. This
really is an education. A every time I
I sit and listen to you talk about
it, and the work that's been done here
is incredible.
We... And Now live in Grand Canyon National

(28:06):
Park, You and I do at least. Mh.
Kevin's not far away, and.
It's a home your mom that's right. And
it's and it's pretty safe here. You know?
It is pretty safe. And we've talked about
the night sky and the importance of having
the night sky available
to look at,
to understand who we are as a people
where we've been where we're going. I mean,

(28:28):
were made of star us,
etcetera. Mh. But for those people who don't
live in an environment where they feel safe.
How would you address the idea that darkness
is something to fear?
That's a really good question.
I've got thoughts. Do you do you want?

(28:48):
Do you have any thoughts??
I I think I think it's okay to...
Fear
darkness. I think... I mean, it's a natural
thing to fear darkness,
it's a very complicated thing because,
you know, and
there's a lot
there's a lot of natural fear and darkness,

(29:09):
but there's also a lot of things that
we don't have to fear
on a societal level, I think. I think
it's... There's an an an innate fear of
darkness,
but out
that's quite different
from
the societal fears of darkness. I feel like
we have. You know, there's there's this there's
this notion that that more light

(29:32):
equals safety. And this is this is 1
of, you know, the the, you the trickier
aspects of the dark skies movement to navigate
even though the the there's there's tons of
science tobacco. That, you know, increased lighting in
certain areas does not necessarily equate to decrease
crime. Right? Right? And and so, you know,

(29:53):
that problem is is, for example, for a
crime and safety. You know, big problems are
just our our poor lighting choices, like the,
like, really poor lighting interpret. Like
think of, you know,
parking lots in front of grocery stores that,
you know, the lights cast
incredibly bright lights down, but it it creates

(30:13):
contrast, for example, like deep deep contrast. Mh
well, that's where a,
potential perpetrator might dwell, you know. And so
so so it's it's poor lighting choices that
really lead to
some of these things that can that can
introduce crime and safety. Mean, there's there's a
lot of studies that show for example that,
you know, having your porch light on

(30:36):
at your house all night
doesn't
necessarily make you, you know,
well, I should flip that having your lights
off all night doesn't make you more susceptible
to
Burglary, for example.
A lot of people actually argue about having
your lights on all night is basically just
showing the burglar what's on. Yeah. You know,

(30:58):
Was like, they gotta a... They got... Yeah.
This out front this front. The the smart
lighting decision, for example, would be something like,
you know, motion sensors.
Because they the burglary it comes up to
the front of the house. They don't know
if the that a motion sensor that triggered
the light to come on or the owner
of the house about to meet them outside.
And so it's these type of of of

(31:19):
of
lighting choices that really help to
decrease crime and safety, and and and it's
really not a mutually exclusive thing. You can
be incredibly safe
while also protecting dark skies. III agree with
that. But but,
you know, you gotta a place this dark
sky, and it is... You notice it's dimmer.
But

(31:40):
I don't know I think if you're used
to really bright bright lights, you can feel
it feels different, but really,
you know, protecting the dark skies isn't about
getting rid of all the lies. Mh And
and as as Raider was saying, it's what
light is appropriate. Mh. And so, you know,
light shining at the sky?
Does that help you with safety or to

(32:02):
help you to see sidewalk?
It's it's, you know, the car lots will
use for advertising?
So there's 1 thing you look at is
how lights are are directed.
Shielded lights point down where you need the
light. So pointing light where you need it
this 1. And another thing is, you know,
your neighbor that has the right light on.
Right. You don't have shining beside, you... You're
supposed to be starting on a sidewalk. So

(32:24):
having it properly pointed as 1 thing, the
type of light,
you know, we mentioned
amber lights for instance, the warmer colors,
it doesn't have to be a blinding white
or blue,
Amber, you still have lights, but it doesn't
affect your night vision as much. Mh.
Or or other negative impacts of artificial light

(32:45):
that we're finding, you know, the Dark sky
movement and started with astronomy. We're finding
biologically,
artificial light is not good. Right. It's not
good for us. It's not good for a
creature trials. Right. Right. And then and then
other things, the like, the... You know, when
you use the light?
You know, do you need all of the
light on a 2AM, for instance.

(33:05):
And and,
how much light you're using? Oh, sure. You
have to have 800 watts
burning through the sidewalk
so there's a lot of things that you
can do that, you know, maintaining a safe
environment for people, but just just it's just
reducing
all that extra glow that goes into the
night. Well, so in Clover, you know, you're

(33:26):
coming from Chicago. Been here 2 years now.
Mh. What's
your... What's been your transition like, if there
has been 1 or or
revelations about your relationship with darkness,
Pristine natural darkness or the night sky in
general,
having now lived in Grand Canyon for 2
years coming from Chicago Mean, is, when you

(33:47):
how do you relate to it now? I
mean, is there is or is there a
different feeling
when,
you know, night approaches,
and is it is it different What's your
experience been like? I guess.
Yeah.
I could talk about it from the perspective
of a physical feeling on So yeah. It's
emotional also.
There's this vast
that

(34:09):
it doesn't it doesn't... I don't feel as
anxious to be honest. I feel like
there's something about being able to see the
sky
in its full glory from... I mean,
as full as it is here. And
the
experience of being safe has been something that

(34:30):
I've come to slowly, which actually started with
Lauren Camp and and and I talking through
darkness. Mh. And
how...
Especially is women,
you know, we've we've
have an extra layer of fear of going
home at night in the dark by ourselves.
Right. And she sort of challenged to me
after having converse patients with you and said,

(34:53):
what if you weren't? Like, what if you
weren't scared of the dark? And what if
you were to to look at it from
them per objective of curiosity
and how it challenges your way of relating
with space and
yourself
and how it forces you to go
inside and really look at yourself and your
own limitations.

(35:15):
Sort of spiritually, I think. So. So I
say... Very lauren camp. Yeah. Yeah. I'm.
It really, really. I mean, it really shifted
my experience and
being here just... I feel so much more
secure, and I think that is not just
because we're in a, you know, a pretty

(35:35):
safe.
Location, but it's also because of that expansive
ness that
you can see and sense.
With all of your being.
Nice. Well, and I think, again, returning into
that that earlier point. I mean,
I think it's a complicated
relationship I think that's why we we really...
We
specifically

(35:56):
saying the astronomer residence program, you know, that
we are dealing with these complicated a complex
relationships with
natural darkness because, you know, you you introduce
very good points, societal points, you know, mountain
being a, you know, a woman,
and how that's different from my experience, for
example, you know? And that these type of
discussions are what made this this program so

(36:17):
beautiful. And, you know, I think in a
lot of ways, it's it it it is...
I mean, for me,
you know, it's it's totally okay to have
that fear of natural darkness
And but as Lauren kinda was implying, there,
it's like, sitting with that a little bit,
and maybe,
you know, in a lot of ways, it's
it's the same type of feeling that the
Grand Canyon itself

(36:39):
gives to people during the day. It's this
this mh overwhelming saint of awe and terror
at the beauty
and
overwhelming of nature. It is. You know what
Mean?
So you you you stand on the rim
of the canyon, and I don't think a
lot of people are, I guess, right at
the, you know, top feeling afraid, but I

(37:01):
think
for
sample those first explorers coming here, you know,
like, Joseph Christmas eyes, John Mo Powell for
or for the people who who've been living
here since time of Memorial. The 11 traditionally
associated tribes of the canyon. I mean, there
is, you know, this this this intimacy that
you set you you experience with the Canyon.

(37:21):
That really does have
some fear mixed in there at just like,
whoa, the the pro propensity of nature. And
and the night skies, I mean, be able
to come out like you said, to the
candy by day and experience that, and then
a night to be welcomed by that feeling
as well is I think it's it's complex,
but it's it's good for us to to

(37:42):
reconnect with some of those, those those earlier
sort of... Those emotions that in a lot
of ways
are art... We have we have
blu a little bit
because of the way that we've structured society,
right, with the excess light and things let's
like that, for example, You know what I
mean? I I agree we're... You know, we're
so tuned into technology.
Mh. And

(38:02):
and so many of us live in welded
areas
you're you're
disconnected with the universe quite quite often. And,
the Grand Canyon is 1 of those places
where you go and
it makes you cause and think.
To think about the darkness and, why, I
thought had been afraid of the dark, How
do I feel now standing on the edge
of this mile deep abyss. Yeah. Exactly exactly.

(38:24):
But it it makes you it makes you
stand back and think and get connected with
the universal little but I think if everybody
can do that for a few minutes,
we're really succeeding. Yeah. 1 word that has
come up, again and again from the people
who come to do their work with excitement
and say, look at everything that exists here
is off.

(38:45):
Yeah. And I remember doctor Daniel Fl coming
and saying, I am interested in awe. Yeah.
You know? And, how
the Grand Canyon relates to that. I really
and it's easy to say as all inspiring,
but to really reflect on what that experience
is as a human being. Mh. In a
really tangible way. I don't think you can

(39:06):
do that. And you with an ipad in
front of your feet or... And yeah, we
had a we had a great conversation about
this 1 a last
of live stream warning that we did. And
some of the past astronomers residents we're talking
about was there a moment
that just really struck you. Mh. And for,
I think it was Dan who said,
just the stark,

(39:27):
the stark, the darkness
and how brilliant
the stars and the milky ain't and everything
were. And I I certainly feel that as
an astronomy person
but also on the other end of the
spectrum,
with the moon up, And, you know, nature's,
light pollution to if you could call that,
You can't see his stars as much and
stuff, but I was odd. I mean, of

(39:49):
course, When his dark appearance and it's like,
but, you know, you're just dumbfounded. But seeing
the full moon, shining has rays down into
the canyon,
and it really allows you to connect the
eons of time
below and above.
And and that to me was just stunning
to have that... Yeah. No. Absolutely. I mean,
it's it's...

(40:09):
We
we tend to organize our astronomy programs around
the new moon cycle,
and so there always tends to be sort
of this
disdain a little bit for when the moon
comes out, but, you know, the the the
truth is, I mean, your residency really brought
this, home to us and then brought that
understanding to this park is is is the
moon is very much part of of the

(40:30):
natural darkness here. And and, you know,
when you our
living in a place works or visiting a
place
like in international Dark Sky park, and you're
able to stick around for a new moon
phase and then the full moon phase. Right,
you really start to understand why for example,
the term luna sea became termed at all.

(40:52):
And and my understanding of the the the
origin of that word is is prior to
the age of electric light.
People were simply able to be out and
about getting into trouble more during a full
moon, and so you were... You off your
out there getting trouble. You were a Luna
tech because, you know, the the the the
brightness of the moon in a pristine

(41:15):
a Dark sky Park is
profound. And and you and you can see
the Grand Canyon. You can make out color
in the grandkids case. Yes. You know, and
and the temples and
and the formation out there. I just... They
take on this almost spectral form. You know,
it's like their ghosts are coming out at

(41:36):
at night and and and
it it really just has this this completely
different
vibe to it and and and feeling. And
so you know, if you ever come to
the Grand Canyon and you're you're disappointed that
you came on a full moon. I mean,
1, it's it's good to to research this
before you come depending on what when you
wanna come and what you wanna see that.

(41:56):
If you happen to come on a full
moon
cycle light we're sort of in right now.
It's magical. It's magical. Walking along the rim
of the canyon at night. You don't need
any lights at all. I mean, I've I've
done
bought, you know, hikes and long hikes into
the grand canyon of a purely under full
moon moonlight, you know, and no no need
for a head lamp at all.

(42:17):
It's it it's
it's a truly magical experience. Yes. It's Yeah.
And I think, you know, for people who
are going on in life and you start
getting worn down,
and home drum and you're working all the
time. If you wanna feel alive,
go to place like Grand Canyon Mh. Where
you have of course, it's blend over the
day, but the dark skies, and you really

(42:37):
feel connected again, and I I don't know
to me, every time I do it, I
it's just
I just feel alive. It it's like you
got zap, and you're and you're really connected
again. And when you're not able to do
that,
I don't know. You just feel this list,
I think that we're we're just losing,
you know, it's like staring at a Tv
screen. That's what it feels like to me.

(42:58):
You know, everyday life, and then you you
break out about, and you really you really
get that reconnect connection with nature in the
universe.
From all the residents who come,
every time they leave,
they all say the same thing. Yeah. Just
like you, the impact was so... Incredible and
so intense, and I am going to miss
it so deeply. Yeah. And I cannot wait

(43:20):
for the opportunity to come back
because,
I don't know how I live without it.
And I... And... You know, I I live
in the dark sky or. And I... And
that's what I do. Like I, you know,
I celebrate dark skies,
but being at the canyon,
and experiencing that with the Canyon itself is
it's...
Dark skies on steroids, the the call factor.

(43:43):
Hopefully that en
them in their research to as a lot
of these records continue on with their research
that come here they get. You know, in
about what they're actually doing on that more
theoretical level. Yeah. And and and purse, you
know,
pursue the the great science
that they're that they're doing. And I know
we've we've inspired that here.

(44:03):
And it, you know, again, it just gets
back to that,
that that complex relationship, I think, we're we're,
you know, having
depriving yourself a little bit almost. You know,
the Canyon kind of it it it makes
you work little harder you know, to experience
it. You know, you gotta get outside. You
gotta walk around. You've got to navigate a
slightly different way. Little you know, and and

(44:24):
and having a little bit of that fear
or having a little bit of that
tired. And. You know. If feel more alive.
If you fail more alive and that. And
that's a that's a really good lesson. I
think for all of us, On just that
larger level how what Dark guys, you know,
and it's but that's just 1 aspect of
this of course. But
right it it speaks to the the importance
of national parks

(44:45):
on a whole and how it truly is,
you know, 1 of America's best... Idea yes
to to be able preserve various places,
and and and not only preserve the ecology
and the pristine scenery, but but
very very deliberately to preserve those
experiences that make us
make us alive. Right. Okay connect as a

(45:06):
nation. So it's they're incredibly. You know, in
hearing you talk I I think of fe,
you know, sucking the marrow out of life,
and and just
living life to the basics. He built his
cabin
just basically living
and really absorbing the universe around him, and
it was profound for him, and it... And
his writing continued to be profound for met
people today.

(45:28):
And it's the same year just put away
the other stuff and just...
Absorb this for a few minutes and it's
it's stunning. It's 1 to where you take
a back country hike or something in the
canyon or elsewhere, all of a sudden,
you know, your morning bowl of Oatmeal becomes
gold. Yeah Yeah. Or just a a hot
cup of tea or something like that. All
of a sudden you you don't take it

(45:49):
for granted anymore end.
And and so III
like to think for
those
those moments that are visitor are coming onto
these programs and and seeing the Milky way
for the very first time. They're having a
similar type of experience where they're just fully
en inviting
what they're what they're viewing in the Milky

(46:10):
way. And and that's just... I mean, it's
tested to the fact that we'll just
tons and tons of programs for my time
here. You'll just have people break breakdown and
and cry at looking at right milky way.
And hugging you or something like that is
not holding back and you can tell in
that moment. They just they... Well, people wanna
hug you anyways. Well, yeah I hope that
honest Blanket, like a so it's kinda be

(46:32):
easy to get around the base there. Yeah.
But... No. It's very... It's very it's wonderful
dude to to
share that with visitors, and
and this program...
Astronomer residence program in our dark skies program
in general has, you know, in 2020
We we've we we've reached... We reached out
to me, like, 50000,

(46:52):
you know, visitors through our programs. And so
it's just been free fantastic journey so far.
And it's really great because it... You know,
so much of this is collaboration working with
different groups and.
Grand Canyon El Park, Grand Canyon conservative lobes
of.
It's been such a great,
partnership, and we're all doing the same thing.
Trying to, you know, show people the wonders

(47:14):
of the universe. Mh. Step back and and
feel that awe and be inspired,
And you like to think that folks leave
and, you know, they're a little bit better.
They're a little bit more inspired.
They have gratitude. Yeah. And
and it's it's great to be able to
talk about these things and keep promoting it.
Mh. And knowing that tonight,
whether cloudy or not. They're gonna be people

(47:36):
outside, they wanna to look at the night
sky or learn about the night sky. Right.
Every night, it's like that. Yeah. And sometimes,
you know, there's disappointment because as much as
we complained about the clouds, mother nature doesn't
listen to us. Yeah. Right. Right. And so
but there's still today, last night, we went
to another point
to look at the nearly full moon rising,

(47:57):
and it was hidden
for most of the time.
Early on and then to start coming in
a little bit. And it was so eerie.
And on the end of the canyon, and
then
you start seeing more of the moon that
you could start seeing more of the Canyon.
Yeah. And it was just like it was
like a 19 forties Black and White movie,
but, you know, it just had this ear
ness in this mysterious. Business to it. Mh.

(48:18):
I mean, had a really need feel. Yeah.
No. It's it's an it's it's incredible to
to experience that and you've been... A great
a great part of that. And, you know,
your residency was
you know, 1 of my favorites and and
much too short And much short. Yeah. So
you had you you come crawling back there
missed this
Alumni visit and where we're excited to have

(48:40):
you. It's just been it's been awesome to
to partner with Lowell and and Grand Canyon
absorb in the National park service. I agree.
It's been a... It's been a incredible partnership
And
and, again, I hope hopefully, we are inspiring.
Not only of those experiences here, but like
you say,
we're
inspiring people to take some of these messages.
But takes community, you know. And every once

(49:01):
in a while and, actually, literally, yesterday was
1 such piece occasion.
We get,
you know,
reached out to by a visitor who, you
know,
went on 1 of our dark sky programs
and and have took the time to reach
out and say, hey, this inspired me to

(49:22):
such an extent I'm now actively pursuing, you
know, Dark sky, community or Dark sky clay
status at my local park or my local
Mh city. And That just happened to me.
I I read it earlier today, somebody out
in the Los Angeles area, and trying to
create an urban dark sky place in 1
of the the local. Parks there. And, based

(49:43):
off of her experience,
specifically,
she... And I'll send this to you guys
she quoted flags stuff and Grand Canyon
for,
for inspiring her to do that this So
it's kinda it's kinda odd. That's great.
And it shows the value of partnership and
and us all being inspired to to wanna
make a difference. And when you see that,

(50:04):
you know, every... Talk to 1 of your
arrange who you give. How many people are
in the audience then and then not all
of them. But so many of them are
affected in some way, some to actively do
something and you know, y'all all... We should
all try to make the world better place
in some way. Yeah. And if somebody leaves
and said, I'm gonna help, you know, protect
the dark skies.
Absolutely It's what it's all about. Yep. Well,

(50:26):
this has been great talking. Wait. As always,
it goes it's way too fast.
But our time has run out. So,
any final questions. Oh, we have a couple
of questions. You don't mind anything a package.
Nope. And that's from that's from Cody Hoffman.
We're talking about,
the origin of the term Luna, and yeah.
Half. I'm sorry. Go. I don't know if
she's has Luna.
I only have. Yeah.

(50:47):
Someone is asking. This is Anna Stone from
Facebook. Hi, Anna? Is asking if there are
any star party presentations that can be shared.
Me so in terms of, like, upcoming events
here in the park, if you visit our,
upcoming night skies events webpage

(51:08):
on the National Park with Grand canyon National
Park
website.
That's where we have all our events listed.
We also so,
on our web and our Youtube channel have
tons of,
online night sky presentations, things like... That we've
given,
and then and then Grand Canyon cons conservative

(51:29):
on on on their on their webpage page
often,
posts about
the astronomer residents program, things like that. You
can learn more about that there.
Yep And also mention, Anna,
depending on where you live and if you're
just looking for a virtual or not,
low observatory,
which is just down the road.
We have essentially star parties every clear night.

(51:52):
And even when it's not clear, we have
astronomers educators. Under so much great activity going
on, We also do a lot of virtual
programs. Mh. If you go to Lowell Youtube
page, there's just a lovely,
collection going back several years now, of of
live
podcasts. Several different series we did and continue

(52:13):
to do. So there's a lot of options
out there. In. Monthly, we do 2 video
programs in collaboration with Grand Canyon Consultancy and
Grand Canyon National Park on we can find
that on any of our social media platforms.
Right. If they can hear me through the
mind. Could. Yep. And the second question was
a bit earlier on. So this might been
cleared up. I don't know if you wanna

(52:33):
have... Of course... It was is was
lowell Observatory At Grand Canyon. They were excited.
So maybe clear up Was respiratory at grand
care. Yeah. Right now,
infrequently, but... Yeah. So so... Questioned is is
Lo observatory trading Grand Canyon. We're setting up
a house here. We're trying to do and
they permanently.

(52:54):
Well, there's such a great collaboration with Grand
Canyon
conservative Grand Canyon National Park. And we're all
trying to do the same thing. Right. Of
inspiring people and sharing the wonders of the
universe. And so we've been developing these partnerships,
thanks to our half luna
marketing person Cody Hoffman,
which is your real name? Yes.
But but these partnerships where

(53:15):
where we,
loyal staff educators, scientists,
come up here for star parties,
to give talks. And that that effort is
is just growing.
Well, I think the idea is to
maybe even make a regular thing where on
different scientists come up your regular basis,
joining in with with the programs you already

(53:36):
have going. Right. And I I can say
these are great because
because generally, you know, you know, an in
the seats 400 or whatever this. And then
afterwards, you go outside, and there's even more
people waiting, Yeah Said to The Telescope.
Right. And it's... And to me, it's it's
inspiring to see that every every night you
see that

(53:56):
because people are hungry
to explore. Well, and there's no...
I was just... There's no better place, I
think,
than came. There there's very few places on
the plan, I should say
that
have 2 things going for at the same
time. 1,
the infrastructure to support people.
And the pristine next guys to go with

(54:17):
it. I mean, usually, you have 1 or
the other. Right? You have all the hotels,
but you're in Las Vegas, and you can
see 4 farms. Right? 2 of Airplanes.
And
or you're in Big Bend National Park. It's
pristine, but it's very hard to get to
you. Right. Yeah. Right? Here, we have both.
We have... We can accommodate 6000000 people
plus per year with all the hotels and

(54:38):
campground. Yet, we're also at the same time,
1 of the darkest night guys of the
United States, And that is just a potent
combination Mh. For
making this 1 of worldwide hubs of dark
skies outreach, and, you know, just having low
observatory. Right? They're 1 of the most
significant and and,
important ob.

(54:58):
Now and in the in in in the
nation's history is is incredibly,
fort 2. Yep. You know, And and so
it's been just a an excellent
collaboration of partnership. Well, it's a partnership that
we all appreciate and we continue to see
it grow and really enjoy that. And and
reaching more and more people. It's really inspiring

(55:19):
to do that. So with that, we'll, we'll
wrap up our program, Brandon Lane
Clover morale. Great to have you. Go chat
there. Come
this podcast was made possible by our members

(55:39):
and donors. If you enjoyed this episode and
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