July 6, 2024 • 29 mins
Join Jordan and Kit as they retell and ret-con the mythology of the constellation Corona Borealis (Theseus, Ariadne, and the Minotaur)!
Episode Transcript: https://www.starrytimepodcast.com/episode-transcripts.html
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>> Jordan (00:15):
Hi, I'm Jordan.
>> Kit (00:16):
And I'm Kit.
>> Jordan (00:18):
Welcome to starry time, where stars
plus lines
>> Kit (00:22):
equal stories.
>> Jordan (00:24):
Today we're going to be continuing our
exploration of the constellation
Corona Borealis, the
northern crown, with a focus on the
history and myths of this
constellation.
>> Kit (00:38):
As, we talked about last episode, this constellation
is pretty vague in shape, so it's probably
not a surprise that not every culture has associated
this constellation with crowns.
>> Jordan (00:50):
For example, in other cultures, it has been seen
as a flower garden, a loose string
of jewels, which is kind of similar to what I saw it
as, a broken dish, which I can see as
well. A council of stars, a
boomerang, and this one I liked a lot, an
eagle's nest.
>> Kit (01:08):
So, unlike other times, where we only
have the iconography of the constellation.
Right, so we might know it was a flower garden, or we
might know it was seen as a broken dish, We
also have some records of the myths associated with this
constellation from other cultures.
>> Jordan (01:25):
For instance, we have one from the Shawnee people
who have a myth about these stars as
sisters who come to earth every night to
dance.
>> Kit (01:35):
Yeah, I liked that one. But in the greco roman
tradition, they associate this constellation with our
very good friend, who we visited a lot this season,
Dionysus, who is
also associated with Corona Australis, the southern
crown. But the southern crown myth
usually relates to the story of Dionysus's
birth.
>> Jordan (01:55):
Shout out to our friend Semele,
aka Smelly. We have seen
a lot of Dionysus this season. Be sure to check
out Corona Australis along with our
Maenads asterism. For a little bit more about this background
info.
>> Kit (02:11):
Get into the back catalog. It's fun.
>> Jordan (02:13):
Get into it.
>> Kit (02:14):
But lucky for Dionysus, he's got lots of
myths, that can be parsed out for various
constellations. And for the northern crown constellation,
we actually get to meet another quote unquote
demigod hero of Greek mythology.
>> Jordan (02:29):
Now it's time to talk
Theseus, in particular,
Theseus and the Minotaur.
It's a long and winding path
to get through this myth, but we
will eventually return back to this
crown. Just be forewarned, it's
a bit of a, um, maze
(02:51):
to get there.
>> Kit (02:52):
Oh, a maze. Foreshadowing.
Um, this, though, definitely seems like one of
those constellations that the Greeks stole
from someone else, and they just were, like,
subsumed it and was like, this is now about this thing that
it definitely is not about
>> Jordan (03:09):
Or Kit they were very imaginative
and loved symbolism.
Either way, this story begins with
Theseus, our, quote unquote
hero. He is sometimes a demigod
child of Poseidon. But
Theseus' birth involves a whole other
myth that involves the oracle of Delphi and
(03:30):
Athena. So
suffice to say, Theseus is
obviously the child of a princess
duh and has some kind
of godlike parentage.
>> Kit (03:44):
Yeah, it's kind of tough, for Theseus, family tree
to figure out exactly what's going on there.
And this, I think, does replicate
some of what we've seen for other Greek heroes in the stars.
This idea of being immortal or divine in some
way, which we've discussed sort of at length in other
episodes.
>> Jordan (04:03):
So Theseus does, in fact, have a few other
adventures which we could talk about, including
our trip to the underworld, but we'll hold off on that one for
now.
>> Kit (04:12):
Another thing that's going on with Theseus is that he has
some daddy issues related to his, alleged mortal
dad, not his Poseidon dad.
And he's got a hero complex. You
know, long story short, there's a whole bunch of myth behind that, but that's
not really the myth that matters. And we're already so far away from a
crown that, let's just say Theseus,
(04:32):
because of his daddy issues, ends up in Athens,
and he super wants to prove himself.
>> Jordan (04:38):
Unfortunately, Athens has a standing
agreement to send seven
girls and seven boys to
King Minos of Crete
every so often as a
sacrifice, which is a totally normal
arrangement. Makes sense.
>> Kit (04:55):
So, apparently, this was due to King
Minos' son dying or being murdered
or killed in Athens, and King
Minos getting so angry, waging a war on
Athens, winning that war. And his
condition was like, you send me, your youths
to feed to our Minotaur.
>> Jordan (05:16):
Theseus being the hero he
is or wants to be, and now
living in Athens around the time of the third
sacrifice, decides, you know what? Maybe.
Maybe I can put an end to this practice. Maybe I
can slay the Minotaur.
>> Kit (05:32):
Confidence, baby.
>> Jordan (05:33):
Confidence, baby. He's trying to prove himself.
And indeed, before we go on,
let's talk about the Minotaur.
>> Kit (05:41):
Buckle up, everybody. Get ready. Just. Just
really sit down. and just get ready for
this story.
>> Jordan (05:48):
Love the Minotaur. The
Minotaur is also known in Crete as
Asterion, who was a mythical
creature with the head of a bull and the body of a
man, and sometimes, as well, the tail of a
bull, who, unfortunately,
eats only humans.
>> Kit (06:06):
Yeah, of course, can only eat humans. That's
the only form of sustenance for the Minotaur.
>> Jordan (06:11):
And. All right, right now you're thinking, this is probably a
child of Typhon or Echidna,
sent to mess with King Minos and company
for something they did wrong or another. Right. That would make
sense.
>> Kit (06:24):
It would make sense. And you're sort of partially
correct if you're thinking that. So, back when
Minos of Crete was trying to become King
Minos of Crete he asked Poseidon to send
a white bull as a sign that he would be
the chosen ruler of Crete
Poseidon agreed, but told
Minos, after you become
(06:47):
king, you have to sacrifice the bull to me.
>> Jordan (06:50):
So. Sounds like a pretty easy arrangement. So he
did that, right?
>> Kit (06:54):
Well, he probably wishes he did that. So
what King Minos does is sacrifice another bull,
because the white bull that Poseidon sent was just
too beautiful to be killed. So
Poseidon, being a
Olympian god, was like,
um, you think that this bull is
more important than me?
(07:16):
And as punishment for this,
Poseidon makes King Minos' wife fall
in love with the white bull.
>> Jordan (07:24):
Cool. Cool.
>> Kit (07:26):
So the queen, now in love with
this white bull, calls upon
her favorite inventor, Daedalus to
make a wooden cow for her to climb
into in order to mate
with the bull.
>> Jordan (07:41):
That's how it works.
>> Kit (07:42):
Yep. Which she did.
>> Jordan (07:44):
Okay.
>> Kit (07:44):
And then she becomes pregnant and
births the minotaur. All right,
so the minotaur is living in the castle
until it gets, he gets too big
and violent and bloodthirsty.
And King Minos goes to seek the advice of the
Oracle of Delphi, who basically said, well, have
(08:05):
your have your inventor guy make a labyrinth to hold the
Minotaur. You obviously can't kill it. so you
just have to let it live.
>> Jordan (08:12):
Apparently.
>> Kit (08:12):
Right. You can't just can't kill it. So every so often, they need
to send some food down there for the Minotaur, and
that's where we are. The Minotaur is living in this
labyrinth. It's needing to be fed every
so often, and King Minos has decided to
feed it Athenian children every so often.
>> Jordan (08:30):
Theseus decides, okay, I'm gonna slay the
baddie. He's not sure exactly how he's
gonna do it, but he lucks out, because the
overseer of the labyrinth is, in fact, King
Minos's daughter, Ariadne
and she instantly falls in
love with our guy. Big t.
(08:50):
Theseus
>> Kit (08:52):
Love at first sight is a trope as old as
time.
>> Jordan (08:55):
Yeah. Ariadne can't help herself.
He's so bold. But she gives him
a sword and a ball of yarn so he can fight the
Minotaur, hopefully win, and then follow
his footsteps back out and escape the maze.
>> Kit (09:08):
So Ariadne is really making a choice here. Doing
so is a betrayal of her father
and of her country.
>> Jordan (09:16):
But it's okay. It works out. Because
when Theseus kills, the Minotaur
arrives victorious from slaying this poor animal that never
chose to be born, Theseus is grateful for
Ariadne and they flee Crete
and elope together.
>> Kit (09:32):
Oh, this is like happily ever after.
>> Jordan (09:35):
Such a happy ending. Except
that's not the ending. The story
isn't over. Theseus is
grateful, but only grateful
enough to leave
Ariadne on an island
alone. So, yeah, they go off to
(09:55):
elope, and he leaves her alone on an
island. And some accounts say it was,
you know, just an accident, you know, got a little lost.
Uh-huh. Whoops. Others say it was due
to a god. But either way, she's
alone on this island, abandoned,
when guess who shows up.
Dionysus, who happens upon
(10:18):
her sleeping. And then he
falls in love instantly and
marries her.
>> Kit (10:26):
Ariadne's life is wild. It's a soap opera over
here.
>> Jordan (10:29):
So, yeah, she falls in love with Theseus
instantaneously, doesn't work out.
Dionysus falls in love with her
instantaneously, and they go off to have
children. And, Dionysus puts
the northern crown into the
sky as a symbol of her
wedding crown.
>> Kit (10:49):
Yeah, so that's how we get to the crown. The
story's not quite over yet, though, because
Ariadne is killed by either
Perseus, using Medusa's head,
or by Artemis or by
her own hand. And either way,
she dies. And Dionysus is like,
(11:09):
no, no,
I don't think so. And he goes to the
underworld and rescues both Ariadne and
his mother, Smelly, who all
become immortal goddesses. And then there is the
end of our story. And somehow there's a crown
sort of in there.
>> Jordan (11:28):
There's a lot to think about with this myth
Kit, aside from, you know, how long it
got us just to get to the part where there's a crown,
you know, in the night sky and why.
>> Kit (11:39):
Yeah, basically just this seems like an
excuse to get a Theseus story up in the night sky.
But I do think it's interesting that the
crown itself is actually more a symbol
of Ariadne than it is of Theseus, which I think is a
bit surprising. It's more about her than it is about
Theseus,
>> Jordan (11:57):
Especially since we have this whole third act where
he abandons Ariadne which kind
of doesn't make me more, uh,
endeared to Theseus. He seems pretty cruel
and manipulative, and it calls into
question whether he actually took advantage of her
and her attraction for him.
>> Kit (12:17):
Yeah. So there are some iterations of the myth where
Dionysus demands Theseus abandons
her. And you can sort of see that
as a way that the storytellers are using
to sort of keep his hero status
pure. But the fact that there is still a
strong abandonment, this idea that he just sort
of casts her off gives his character some,
(12:39):
um, added nuance and villainy
that I think is kind of interesting to think about when we think about
these heroes.
>> Jordan (12:47):
So I think in breaking down this myth, we should
roughly follow the chronology of it, starting with,
of course, the origin story of the
Minotaur.
>> Kit (12:56):
Well, I mean, I think, why tell a story
right about, like, the birth or the origin of the Minotaur? I
think it's about the consequences of not
honoring your commitments. So King Minos makes a
commitment to Poseidon, and he breaks it.
Um, and the consequences, of course, with the gods are
always leveled up.
>> Jordan (13:14):
And don't make the gods angry,
or there will be consequences, in
fact, monstrous consequences that
you'll be paying for. And there's also this
undertone of arrogance from King
Minos, you know, acting as though he could trick him
or deceive him by killing the wrong
bull or somehow that he knew better than
(13:36):
Poseidon, and that's promptly punished
by Poseidon.
>> Kit (13:40):
Yeah. And then we have the placement of
the Minotaur into a labyrinth. And this definitely
reminded me of this sort of human desire to, like, hide
away things that we don't want to think about or
see. This idea that the
Minotaur isn't allowed to be killed for whatever
reason, but also is not allowed
to exist. Right. It has to be
(14:02):
put into the labyrinth where no one can. No one can
see it. And it sort of reminds me of this sort of very
human desire to hide away those kinds of things,
whether it's people or parts of
ourselves or, um, other kinds of
things.
>> Jordan (14:17):
Yeah. We have a tendency as humans to
lock away those things that we consider ugly
or abnormal, or things that will make
us feel uncomfortable. And labyrinths
themselves are seen in literature and myth
quite often. They can represent a
journey rather than a beginning or end,
or they can also be a symbol of
(14:39):
disorientation or complexity.
In some instances, it has been argued
that the palace in Minos was very
large and labyrinth like, and
thus was a sort of source for this myth.
This has since been discredited and
found to be untrue. But it's a good reminder of how
we translate odd or out
(15:01):
of place or unusual things into myth.
>> Kit (15:04):
I did read a really interesting article about
mythology and monsters and labyrinths, so
I'll be sure to post that over on our socials for anybody who wants to
dig a little deeper into the labyrinth of it
all. When we get to Ariadne we get
a timeless reminder that
love or lust, in this case, can
(15:25):
cloud your ability to make decisions. There's not
really any version of this myth where Ariadne is
deceived or where she's, like magicked into
helping Theseus. It is just this idea
that she is overcome. She's making a
bad decision because she's so in love or in lust or
thinks she's in love with Theseus. And she knows
(15:45):
by helping Theseus, she's going to garner the wrath of
her father and the people of Crete
>> Jordan (15:50):
In the short term, she pays a consequence of this
by leaving her home and then being
promptly dumped by
Theseus
>> Kit (15:59):
Though then she's kind of. Then she's saved by
Dionysus. And so I'm a little bit, like,
confused in the myth the extent to which
she was, like, happy or unhappy being with Dionysus.
So in some versions of the myth, she's heartbroken
about Theseus. In some version, she seems very
happy and in love with Dionysius. And so I
don't really know what to do with that in terms of thinking
(16:21):
about consequence or thinking about
betrayal and how her story works out.
>> Jordan (16:27):
I mean, it seems kind of hard to tell what the actual
result is for her. But I don't
think it's a mistake that it is
Dionysus, of all gods, who would be
the one who decides to
marry Ariadne. You know, get married to a
mortal who he eventually turns immortal.
(16:47):
As we discussed at the beginning of our season,
now you have a whole season to look back on,
Dionysus, he was also known to push
boundaries.
>> Kit (16:57):
Yeah. Dionysus is a really interesting figure in that way. And
I think that, overall, what we have throughout this
whole myth is a lot of different
layers.
>> Jordan (17:06):
Get a lot of lessons that, we've heard before, just, like,
redone. Right. The lesson of, don't go back on your deals with
gods. Love has consequences, especially
when it means turning your back on your family and your
people. Then we also get, men can do whatever
they want because Theseus just abandons her.
>> Kit (17:23):
Yeah. So, basically, we do have all these different
lessons layered into a single myth, as opposed to in separate
myths. So, in the end, even though the crown
itself is minor and
inconsequential almost to the story, it
does make sense that the ancient Greeks would want to tell these stories.
And in fact, as you said, we've heard a lot of these
lessons before in other stories
>> Jordan (17:45):
As we come to the end of the season, yeah, this is like the
mashup of all the quests and curses. It's all coming
together, and it created quite a maze of
meaning and, ah, mythology.
But let's take a quick break and see if we
can make things a little bit more clear, perhaps with
a, couple reconstallations of this
(18:05):
myth.
Welcome back. Back to our segment,
reconstellation. In this segment,
we reimagine, reboot, and
revise the myths of our monthly constellation
(18:26):
in hopes that we can modernize them, subvert
them, or deepen their story. Sometimes it's
the best we can do just to make them a little less
cringy. Kit, would you like to start us off
this week?
>> Kit (18:38):
Yeah, I want to start, though, with some
recommendations. There is a great
recasting of Ariadne in the book Herc by
Phoenicia Rogerson, which is a very
excellent recentering story about Hercules,
which also emphasizes his canonical
queerness. And we also get a sprinkling
of Theseus in. And Theseus is kind of,
(19:00):
like a loser. Like a loser, wannabe hero.
And so that is a great book to check
out. I really enjoyed it. And it's told not from
Hercules perspective, but from the people all around
him. A really enjoyable book. if you're looking for
something.
>> Jordan (19:16):
That's Herc by Phoenicia
Rogerson. Excellent retconstellation
>> Kit (19:21):
Yep. there's also a book called
Ariadne by Jennifer Saint, which I
haven't read, but is in the same vein as, ah, sort
of Natalie Haynes A Thousand
Ships, or In the Shadow of Perseus by Claire Heywood,
which I've mentioned on previous episodes.
>> Jordan (19:38):
So this is a myth with lots of retcons out there
already as we went over just by telling it,
there's a lot of different directions it goes in and therefore a
lot of directions you can play with. So what'd
you come up with?
>> Kit (19:50):
Yeah, so with those, you know, other retellings
aside, I decided to keep
it simple this month. In my version, there's no
Theseus. Just Theseus is gone.
Let's just, you know, the crown's not even his.
So in my version, Ariadne was
sent to live in a rural castle on Crete
after her father deemed her too rebellious and
(20:13):
unladylike for court. So
she grew up less like a princess and more like a
farmhand, which made her crafty and
strong. One day when she was out tending the
animals, her old aunt, who she, of course,
lives with in the castle, calls her into the
house. Awaiting her is a contingent of
her father's favorite soldiers, who order her
(20:36):
to return to the city. But
she doesn't want to go. She actually loves the
countryside life. She considers trying to
run, but she's on an island,
so there's not really any place for her to
go. So she goes back to King
Minos's castle in Crete and he
tells her she is now in charge of the
(20:58):
labyrinth because his favorite
daughter, who held the sacred duty, has
died. So that feels great, I'm
sure. So Ariadne takes over, but when
she's ordered to send in 14 Athenian
children for the minotaur to eat,
she just can't do it. Instead, she uses
a secret hidden passageway that she found as a
(21:20):
child and gets them out
of the city. Deciding she can no longer allow her father
to keep feeding the minotaur, she enters into the
maze with a ball of string and a sword.
She moves through the winding halls. She finds
dead bodies littered throughout. And after
hours, she's realized she's traversed the entire
maze, and there never was and never
(21:42):
has been a minotaur or any other
monster in the maze.
>> Jordan (21:47):
Huh? Huh?
>> Kit (21:48):
Instead, her father was putting these
children into the maze, where they would get lost and die
due to exposure. She makes her way
out of the labyrinth and hunts down
Daedalus, confronting him about his
role in this ruse. He breaks
immediately. Immediately, it
admits there was never a minotaur just a cruel and
(22:10):
sadistic king's punishment for others at the loss
of his son in Athens. Ariadne next goes
to her mother, who also admits there was not a
minotaur. And frankly, the queen's a
little upset everyone believed she had sex with a
bull.
So this trio, just a little. So
(22:31):
this trio, Ariadne, Daedalus, and the
queen overthrow King Minos, destroy the
maze, and apologize to Athens. And
Queen Ariadne goes on to become known as
Ariadne the Just. And they remember her strength
and bravery by commemorating her coronation crown in
the night sky as Corona
Borealis.
>> Jordan (22:54):
So many twists.
>> Kit (22:56):
Oh, yeah. You like it?
>> Jordan (22:57):
I love it. I love it. There's no
minotaur.
>> Kit (23:01):
Yeah.
>> Jordan (23:01):
I mean, first of all, the removal of Theseus. Great. He
is kind of a loser, and I do like, yeah, Uh, this is kind of
like, it keeps the mystery element of the story,
but without all the abandonment aspects
and Dionysus aspects, it's certainly a
lot simpler. and makes sense. I like this
one a lot.
>> Kit (23:21):
How about you, Jordan? Where did you go with this retcon?
>> Jordan (23:24):
What I liked about yours was, again, you've laid out a
whole plot. So in my
retconstellation, Minotaur gets
out and Minotaur's real,
you know, object of ire and anger
isn't Theseus. Never been
Theseus. He gets out and
he is P.O.ed
(23:46):
at King Minos.
So in my reconstellation, the
Minotaur gets out of the maze,
makes King Minos pay for this
punishment, becomes king of
Crete King Mino-taur a tour
of Crete
>> Kit (24:06):
Yeah.
>> Jordan (24:07):
Takes over the throne and
leads a wonderful,
long reign of prosperity
and peace. And because he was given
this outcast status earlier
in life, it gives him a perspective of the
small folk of Crete that allows him to be
(24:27):
compassionate in ways that King
Minos and the royal family
never could. So Corona
Borealis is actually the
Minotaur's crown, which is them,
paying tribute to his years
of service to the people of
Crete.
>> Kit (24:47):
I like this. I like that in both of our myths,
we were, um, out on King
Minos. And I like that these
unexpected things about the Minotaur, whether the Minotaur doesn't
exist or the Minotaur is actually this sort
of person that's been imprisoned because
of his differentness, but then
rises out of that and is able to get free from
(25:09):
that. I like that all better than this
version of the myth, that's like, hero kills
monster, abandons, you know,
um, poor princess. I think both of
them are more interesting.
>> Jordan (25:22):
Now it's time to see where our oracle took
this myth. In our segment,
Oracle AI.
>> Kit (25:29):
First, as always, we asked the oracle for an
analysis of the myth's most problematic
elements. They identified five
problematic themes in this myth, including
betrayal and deception by Theseus,
sacrifice and human suffering related to the
practice of human sacrifice to the minotaur, gender
roles and limited female agency,
(25:51):
noting that Ariadne is rescued by a
man and then by a god,
glorification of violence and
finally otherness and marginalization of the
Minotaur. So, as always, we
then asked our oracle for a short retcon
of the myth that addresses these problematic
themes that it's identified.
>> Jordan (26:12):
So saith the oracle
revised telling of the myth, King Minos
seeks a peaceful resolution with
Athens, ending the sacrifices
and fostering mutual respect.
Theseus, an Athenian prince,
volunteers to confront the Minotaur,
not to kill it, but to understand and
(26:35):
help it. Ariadne
a strong an independent woman
offers her assistance willingly, not out
of love, but out of compassion
for all involved. Together,
they navigate the labyrinth, where they discover the
Minotaur's true nature. A, misunderstood
(26:55):
being, not a monster.
Through dialogue and empathy, they
find a way to integrate the Minotaur into
society, ending its isolation.
Ariadne then chooses her own
path, exploring the world and
forging her destiny free from male
control, while Theseus
(27:17):
returns to Athens, heralded for his
wisdom and peacemaking rather
than his violence.
So there's some interesting things going on here, for
sure. What were your thoughts?
>> Kit (27:32):
I didn't hate this one. I didn't
fully understand it. There seems like there's
some things missing. You only have a paragraph.
But I liked the idea, again of this, thinking
about the Minotaur as an other or
as something or someone, that's misunderstood,
I think is an interesting idea, and I think it's something that's been discussed
(27:52):
a lot, thinking about the symbolism of the Minotaur
which is why we see it from the oracle. Again, this is a
myth that's been retconned and thought about in a lot of different
ways, and so it doesn't surprise me that this
version of it sort of brings some of those things to the
forefront.
>> Jordan (28:07):
It gets the scaffolding of things right, but
doesn't really have enough, like, individual
details. It's done a great job of
solving some of the problems that are in the
original myth, but it's not done a very good job of
offering a, compelling alternative.
>> Kit (28:24):
And it hasn't mentioned the crown, so.
>> Jordan (28:27):
That seems important in some way.
This brings us to the end of our episode
(28:49):
this week. Join us next week for the pop
culture segment of our exploration of the
constellation Corona
Borealis.
>> Kit (28:58):
This has been Kit
>> Jordan (29:00):
And Jordan.
>> Kit (29:01):
Sisters, lovers of stars and stories.
>> Jordan (29:04):
And we'll see you next time
>> Kit (29:06):
On Starry Time.
Hi, I'm Jordan.
>> Kit (00:16):
And I'm Kit.
>> Jordan (00:18):
Welcome to starry time, where stars
plus lines
>> Kit (00:22):
equal stories.
>> Jordan (00:24):
Today we're going to be continuing our
exploration of the constellation
Corona Borealis, the
northern crown, with a focus on the
history and myths of this
constellation.
>> Kit (00:38):
As, we talked about last episode, this constellation
is pretty vague in shape, so it's probably
not a surprise that not every culture has associated
this constellation with crowns.
>> Jordan (00:50):
For example, in other cultures, it has been seen
as a flower garden, a loose string
of jewels, which is kind of similar to what I saw it
as, a broken dish, which I can see as
well. A council of stars, a
boomerang, and this one I liked a lot, an
eagle's nest.
>> Kit (01:08):
So, unlike other times, where we only
have the iconography of the constellation.
Right, so we might know it was a flower garden, or we
might know it was seen as a broken dish, We
also have some records of the myths associated with this
constellation from other cultures.
>> Jordan (01:25):
For instance, we have one from the Shawnee people
who have a myth about these stars as
sisters who come to earth every night to
dance.
>> Kit (01:35):
Yeah, I liked that one. But in the greco roman
tradition, they associate this constellation with our
very good friend, who we visited a lot this season,
Dionysus, who is
also associated with Corona Australis, the southern
crown. But the southern crown myth
usually relates to the story of Dionysus's
birth.
>> Jordan (01:55):
Shout out to our friend Semele,
aka Smelly. We have seen
a lot of Dionysus this season. Be sure to check
out Corona Australis along with our
Maenads asterism. For a little bit more about this background
info.
>> Kit (02:11):
Get into the back catalog. It's fun.
>> Jordan (02:13):
Get into it.
>> Kit (02:14):
But lucky for Dionysus, he's got lots of
myths, that can be parsed out for various
constellations. And for the northern crown constellation,
we actually get to meet another quote unquote
demigod hero of Greek mythology.
>> Jordan (02:29):
Now it's time to talk
Theseus, in particular,
Theseus and the Minotaur.
It's a long and winding path
to get through this myth, but we
will eventually return back to this
crown. Just be forewarned, it's
a bit of a, um, maze
(02:51):
to get there.
>> Kit (02:52):
Oh, a maze. Foreshadowing.
Um, this, though, definitely seems like one of
those constellations that the Greeks stole
from someone else, and they just were, like,
subsumed it and was like, this is now about this thing that
it definitely is not about
>> Jordan (03:09):
Or Kit they were very imaginative
and loved symbolism.
Either way, this story begins with
Theseus, our, quote unquote
hero. He is sometimes a demigod
child of Poseidon. But
Theseus' birth involves a whole other
myth that involves the oracle of Delphi and
(03:30):
Athena. So
suffice to say, Theseus is
obviously the child of a princess
duh and has some kind
of godlike parentage.
>> Kit (03:44):
Yeah, it's kind of tough, for Theseus, family tree
to figure out exactly what's going on there.
And this, I think, does replicate
some of what we've seen for other Greek heroes in the stars.
This idea of being immortal or divine in some
way, which we've discussed sort of at length in other
episodes.
>> Jordan (04:03):
So Theseus does, in fact, have a few other
adventures which we could talk about, including
our trip to the underworld, but we'll hold off on that one for
now.
>> Kit (04:12):
Another thing that's going on with Theseus is that he has
some daddy issues related to his, alleged mortal
dad, not his Poseidon dad.
And he's got a hero complex. You
know, long story short, there's a whole bunch of myth behind that, but that's
not really the myth that matters. And we're already so far away from a
crown that, let's just say Theseus,
(04:32):
because of his daddy issues, ends up in Athens,
and he super wants to prove himself.
>> Jordan (04:38):
Unfortunately, Athens has a standing
agreement to send seven
girls and seven boys to
King Minos of Crete
every so often as a
sacrifice, which is a totally normal
arrangement. Makes sense.
>> Kit (04:55):
So, apparently, this was due to King
Minos' son dying or being murdered
or killed in Athens, and King
Minos getting so angry, waging a war on
Athens, winning that war. And his
condition was like, you send me, your youths
to feed to our Minotaur.
>> Jordan (05:16):
Theseus being the hero he
is or wants to be, and now
living in Athens around the time of the third
sacrifice, decides, you know what? Maybe.
Maybe I can put an end to this practice. Maybe I
can slay the Minotaur.
>> Kit (05:32):
Confidence, baby.
>> Jordan (05:33):
Confidence, baby. He's trying to prove himself.
And indeed, before we go on,
let's talk about the Minotaur.
>> Kit (05:41):
Buckle up, everybody. Get ready. Just. Just
really sit down. and just get ready for
this story.
>> Jordan (05:48):
Love the Minotaur. The
Minotaur is also known in Crete as
Asterion, who was a mythical
creature with the head of a bull and the body of a
man, and sometimes, as well, the tail of a
bull, who, unfortunately,
eats only humans.
>> Kit (06:06):
Yeah, of course, can only eat humans. That's
the only form of sustenance for the Minotaur.
>> Jordan (06:11):
And. All right, right now you're thinking, this is probably a
child of Typhon or Echidna,
sent to mess with King Minos and company
for something they did wrong or another. Right. That would make
sense.
>> Kit (06:24):
It would make sense. And you're sort of partially
correct if you're thinking that. So, back when
Minos of Crete was trying to become King
Minos of Crete he asked Poseidon to send
a white bull as a sign that he would be
the chosen ruler of Crete
Poseidon agreed, but told
Minos, after you become
(06:47):
king, you have to sacrifice the bull to me.
>> Jordan (06:50):
So. Sounds like a pretty easy arrangement. So he
did that, right?
>> Kit (06:54):
Well, he probably wishes he did that. So
what King Minos does is sacrifice another bull,
because the white bull that Poseidon sent was just
too beautiful to be killed. So
Poseidon, being a
Olympian god, was like,
um, you think that this bull is
more important than me?
(07:16):
And as punishment for this,
Poseidon makes King Minos' wife fall
in love with the white bull.
>> Jordan (07:24):
Cool. Cool.
>> Kit (07:26):
So the queen, now in love with
this white bull, calls upon
her favorite inventor, Daedalus to
make a wooden cow for her to climb
into in order to mate
with the bull.
>> Jordan (07:41):
That's how it works.
>> Kit (07:42):
Yep. Which she did.
>> Jordan (07:44):
Okay.
>> Kit (07:44):
And then she becomes pregnant and
births the minotaur. All right,
so the minotaur is living in the castle
until it gets, he gets too big
and violent and bloodthirsty.
And King Minos goes to seek the advice of the
Oracle of Delphi, who basically said, well, have
(08:05):
your have your inventor guy make a labyrinth to hold the
Minotaur. You obviously can't kill it. so you
just have to let it live.
>> Jordan (08:12):
Apparently.
>> Kit (08:12):
Right. You can't just can't kill it. So every so often, they need
to send some food down there for the Minotaur, and
that's where we are. The Minotaur is living in this
labyrinth. It's needing to be fed every
so often, and King Minos has decided to
feed it Athenian children every so often.
>> Jordan (08:30):
Theseus decides, okay, I'm gonna slay the
baddie. He's not sure exactly how he's
gonna do it, but he lucks out, because the
overseer of the labyrinth is, in fact, King
Minos's daughter, Ariadne
and she instantly falls in
love with our guy. Big t.
(08:50):
Theseus
>> Kit (08:52):
Love at first sight is a trope as old as
time.
>> Jordan (08:55):
Yeah. Ariadne can't help herself.
He's so bold. But she gives him
a sword and a ball of yarn so he can fight the
Minotaur, hopefully win, and then follow
his footsteps back out and escape the maze.
>> Kit (09:08):
So Ariadne is really making a choice here. Doing
so is a betrayal of her father
and of her country.
>> Jordan (09:16):
But it's okay. It works out. Because
when Theseus kills, the Minotaur
arrives victorious from slaying this poor animal that never
chose to be born, Theseus is grateful for
Ariadne and they flee Crete
and elope together.
>> Kit (09:32):
Oh, this is like happily ever after.
>> Jordan (09:35):
Such a happy ending. Except
that's not the ending. The story
isn't over. Theseus is
grateful, but only grateful
enough to leave
Ariadne on an island
alone. So, yeah, they go off to
(09:55):
elope, and he leaves her alone on an
island. And some accounts say it was,
you know, just an accident, you know, got a little lost.
Uh-huh. Whoops. Others say it was due
to a god. But either way, she's
alone on this island, abandoned,
when guess who shows up.
Dionysus, who happens upon
(10:18):
her sleeping. And then he
falls in love instantly and
marries her.
>> Kit (10:26):
Ariadne's life is wild. It's a soap opera over
here.
>> Jordan (10:29):
So, yeah, she falls in love with Theseus
instantaneously, doesn't work out.
Dionysus falls in love with her
instantaneously, and they go off to have
children. And, Dionysus puts
the northern crown into the
sky as a symbol of her
wedding crown.
>> Kit (10:49):
Yeah, so that's how we get to the crown. The
story's not quite over yet, though, because
Ariadne is killed by either
Perseus, using Medusa's head,
or by Artemis or by
her own hand. And either way,
she dies. And Dionysus is like,
(11:09):
no, no,
I don't think so. And he goes to the
underworld and rescues both Ariadne and
his mother, Smelly, who all
become immortal goddesses. And then there is the
end of our story. And somehow there's a crown
sort of in there.
>> Jordan (11:28):
There's a lot to think about with this myth
Kit, aside from, you know, how long it
got us just to get to the part where there's a crown,
you know, in the night sky and why.
>> Kit (11:39):
Yeah, basically just this seems like an
excuse to get a Theseus story up in the night sky.
But I do think it's interesting that the
crown itself is actually more a symbol
of Ariadne than it is of Theseus, which I think is a
bit surprising. It's more about her than it is about
Theseus,
>> Jordan (11:57):
Especially since we have this whole third act where
he abandons Ariadne which kind
of doesn't make me more, uh,
endeared to Theseus. He seems pretty cruel
and manipulative, and it calls into
question whether he actually took advantage of her
and her attraction for him.
>> Kit (12:17):
Yeah. So there are some iterations of the myth where
Dionysus demands Theseus abandons
her. And you can sort of see that
as a way that the storytellers are using
to sort of keep his hero status
pure. But the fact that there is still a
strong abandonment, this idea that he just sort
of casts her off gives his character some,
(12:39):
um, added nuance and villainy
that I think is kind of interesting to think about when we think about
these heroes.
>> Jordan (12:47):
So I think in breaking down this myth, we should
roughly follow the chronology of it, starting with,
of course, the origin story of the
Minotaur.
>> Kit (12:56):
Well, I mean, I think, why tell a story
right about, like, the birth or the origin of the Minotaur? I
think it's about the consequences of not
honoring your commitments. So King Minos makes a
commitment to Poseidon, and he breaks it.
Um, and the consequences, of course, with the gods are
always leveled up.
>> Jordan (13:14):
And don't make the gods angry,
or there will be consequences, in
fact, monstrous consequences that
you'll be paying for. And there's also this
undertone of arrogance from King
Minos, you know, acting as though he could trick him
or deceive him by killing the wrong
bull or somehow that he knew better than
(13:36):
Poseidon, and that's promptly punished
by Poseidon.
>> Kit (13:40):
Yeah. And then we have the placement of
the Minotaur into a labyrinth. And this definitely
reminded me of this sort of human desire to, like, hide
away things that we don't want to think about or
see. This idea that the
Minotaur isn't allowed to be killed for whatever
reason, but also is not allowed
to exist. Right. It has to be
(14:02):
put into the labyrinth where no one can. No one can
see it. And it sort of reminds me of this sort of very
human desire to hide away those kinds of things,
whether it's people or parts of
ourselves or, um, other kinds of
things.
>> Jordan (14:17):
Yeah. We have a tendency as humans to
lock away those things that we consider ugly
or abnormal, or things that will make
us feel uncomfortable. And labyrinths
themselves are seen in literature and myth
quite often. They can represent a
journey rather than a beginning or end,
or they can also be a symbol of
(14:39):
disorientation or complexity.
In some instances, it has been argued
that the palace in Minos was very
large and labyrinth like, and
thus was a sort of source for this myth.
This has since been discredited and
found to be untrue. But it's a good reminder of how
we translate odd or out
(15:01):
of place or unusual things into myth.
>> Kit (15:04):
I did read a really interesting article about
mythology and monsters and labyrinths, so
I'll be sure to post that over on our socials for anybody who wants to
dig a little deeper into the labyrinth of it
all. When we get to Ariadne we get
a timeless reminder that
love or lust, in this case, can
(15:25):
cloud your ability to make decisions. There's not
really any version of this myth where Ariadne is
deceived or where she's, like magicked into
helping Theseus. It is just this idea
that she is overcome. She's making a
bad decision because she's so in love or in lust or
thinks she's in love with Theseus. And she knows
(15:45):
by helping Theseus, she's going to garner the wrath of
her father and the people of Crete
>> Jordan (15:50):
In the short term, she pays a consequence of this
by leaving her home and then being
promptly dumped by
Theseus
>> Kit (15:59):
Though then she's kind of. Then she's saved by
Dionysus. And so I'm a little bit, like,
confused in the myth the extent to which
she was, like, happy or unhappy being with Dionysus.
So in some versions of the myth, she's heartbroken
about Theseus. In some version, she seems very
happy and in love with Dionysius. And so I
don't really know what to do with that in terms of thinking
(16:21):
about consequence or thinking about
betrayal and how her story works out.
>> Jordan (16:27):
I mean, it seems kind of hard to tell what the actual
result is for her. But I don't
think it's a mistake that it is
Dionysus, of all gods, who would be
the one who decides to
marry Ariadne. You know, get married to a
mortal who he eventually turns immortal.
(16:47):
As we discussed at the beginning of our season,
now you have a whole season to look back on,
Dionysus, he was also known to push
boundaries.
>> Kit (16:57):
Yeah. Dionysus is a really interesting figure in that way. And
I think that, overall, what we have throughout this
whole myth is a lot of different
layers.
>> Jordan (17:06):
Get a lot of lessons that, we've heard before, just, like,
redone. Right. The lesson of, don't go back on your deals with
gods. Love has consequences, especially
when it means turning your back on your family and your
people. Then we also get, men can do whatever
they want because Theseus just abandons her.
>> Kit (17:23):
Yeah. So, basically, we do have all these different
lessons layered into a single myth, as opposed to in separate
myths. So, in the end, even though the crown
itself is minor and
inconsequential almost to the story, it
does make sense that the ancient Greeks would want to tell these stories.
And in fact, as you said, we've heard a lot of these
lessons before in other stories
>> Jordan (17:45):
As we come to the end of the season, yeah, this is like the
mashup of all the quests and curses. It's all coming
together, and it created quite a maze of
meaning and, ah, mythology.
But let's take a quick break and see if we
can make things a little bit more clear, perhaps with
a, couple reconstallations of this
(18:05):
myth.
Welcome back. Back to our segment,
reconstellation. In this segment,
we reimagine, reboot, and
revise the myths of our monthly constellation
(18:26):
in hopes that we can modernize them, subvert
them, or deepen their story. Sometimes it's
the best we can do just to make them a little less
cringy. Kit, would you like to start us off
this week?
>> Kit (18:38):
Yeah, I want to start, though, with some
recommendations. There is a great
recasting of Ariadne in the book Herc by
Phoenicia Rogerson, which is a very
excellent recentering story about Hercules,
which also emphasizes his canonical
queerness. And we also get a sprinkling
of Theseus in. And Theseus is kind of,
(19:00):
like a loser. Like a loser, wannabe hero.
And so that is a great book to check
out. I really enjoyed it. And it's told not from
Hercules perspective, but from the people all around
him. A really enjoyable book. if you're looking for
something.
>> Jordan (19:16):
That's Herc by Phoenicia
Rogerson. Excellent retconstellation
>> Kit (19:21):
Yep. there's also a book called
Ariadne by Jennifer Saint, which I
haven't read, but is in the same vein as, ah, sort
of Natalie Haynes A Thousand
Ships, or In the Shadow of Perseus by Claire Heywood,
which I've mentioned on previous episodes.
>> Jordan (19:38):
So this is a myth with lots of retcons out there
already as we went over just by telling it,
there's a lot of different directions it goes in and therefore a
lot of directions you can play with. So what'd
you come up with?
>> Kit (19:50):
Yeah, so with those, you know, other retellings
aside, I decided to keep
it simple this month. In my version, there's no
Theseus. Just Theseus is gone.
Let's just, you know, the crown's not even his.
So in my version, Ariadne was
sent to live in a rural castle on Crete
after her father deemed her too rebellious and
(20:13):
unladylike for court. So
she grew up less like a princess and more like a
farmhand, which made her crafty and
strong. One day when she was out tending the
animals, her old aunt, who she, of course,
lives with in the castle, calls her into the
house. Awaiting her is a contingent of
her father's favorite soldiers, who order her
(20:36):
to return to the city. But
she doesn't want to go. She actually loves the
countryside life. She considers trying to
run, but she's on an island,
so there's not really any place for her to
go. So she goes back to King
Minos's castle in Crete and he
tells her she is now in charge of the
(20:58):
labyrinth because his favorite
daughter, who held the sacred duty, has
died. So that feels great, I'm
sure. So Ariadne takes over, but when
she's ordered to send in 14 Athenian
children for the minotaur to eat,
she just can't do it. Instead, she uses
a secret hidden passageway that she found as a
(21:20):
child and gets them out
of the city. Deciding she can no longer allow her father
to keep feeding the minotaur, she enters into the
maze with a ball of string and a sword.
She moves through the winding halls. She finds
dead bodies littered throughout. And after
hours, she's realized she's traversed the entire
maze, and there never was and never
(21:42):
has been a minotaur or any other
monster in the maze.
>> Jordan (21:47):
Huh? Huh?
>> Kit (21:48):
Instead, her father was putting these
children into the maze, where they would get lost and die
due to exposure. She makes her way
out of the labyrinth and hunts down
Daedalus, confronting him about his
role in this ruse. He breaks
immediately. Immediately, it
admits there was never a minotaur just a cruel and
(22:10):
sadistic king's punishment for others at the loss
of his son in Athens. Ariadne next goes
to her mother, who also admits there was not a
minotaur. And frankly, the queen's a
little upset everyone believed she had sex with a
bull.
So this trio, just a little. So
(22:31):
this trio, Ariadne, Daedalus, and the
queen overthrow King Minos, destroy the
maze, and apologize to Athens. And
Queen Ariadne goes on to become known as
Ariadne the Just. And they remember her strength
and bravery by commemorating her coronation crown in
the night sky as Corona
Borealis.
>> Jordan (22:54):
So many twists.
>> Kit (22:56):
Oh, yeah. You like it?
>> Jordan (22:57):
I love it. I love it. There's no
minotaur.
>> Kit (23:01):
Yeah.
>> Jordan (23:01):
I mean, first of all, the removal of Theseus. Great. He
is kind of a loser, and I do like, yeah, Uh, this is kind of
like, it keeps the mystery element of the story,
but without all the abandonment aspects
and Dionysus aspects, it's certainly a
lot simpler. and makes sense. I like this
one a lot.
>> Kit (23:21):
How about you, Jordan? Where did you go with this retcon?
>> Jordan (23:24):
What I liked about yours was, again, you've laid out a
whole plot. So in my
retconstellation, Minotaur gets
out and Minotaur's real,
you know, object of ire and anger
isn't Theseus. Never been
Theseus. He gets out and
he is P.O.ed
(23:46):
at King Minos.
So in my reconstellation, the
Minotaur gets out of the maze,
makes King Minos pay for this
punishment, becomes king of
Crete King Mino-taur a tour
of Crete
>> Kit (24:06):
Yeah.
>> Jordan (24:07):
Takes over the throne and
leads a wonderful,
long reign of prosperity
and peace. And because he was given
this outcast status earlier
in life, it gives him a perspective of the
small folk of Crete that allows him to be
(24:27):
compassionate in ways that King
Minos and the royal family
never could. So Corona
Borealis is actually the
Minotaur's crown, which is them,
paying tribute to his years
of service to the people of
Crete.
>> Kit (24:47):
I like this. I like that in both of our myths,
we were, um, out on King
Minos. And I like that these
unexpected things about the Minotaur, whether the Minotaur doesn't
exist or the Minotaur is actually this sort
of person that's been imprisoned because
of his differentness, but then
rises out of that and is able to get free from
(25:09):
that. I like that all better than this
version of the myth, that's like, hero kills
monster, abandons, you know,
um, poor princess. I think both of
them are more interesting.
>> Jordan (25:22):
Now it's time to see where our oracle took
this myth. In our segment,
Oracle AI.
>> Kit (25:29):
First, as always, we asked the oracle for an
analysis of the myth's most problematic
elements. They identified five
problematic themes in this myth, including
betrayal and deception by Theseus,
sacrifice and human suffering related to the
practice of human sacrifice to the minotaur, gender
roles and limited female agency,
(25:51):
noting that Ariadne is rescued by a
man and then by a god,
glorification of violence and
finally otherness and marginalization of the
Minotaur. So, as always, we
then asked our oracle for a short retcon
of the myth that addresses these problematic
themes that it's identified.
>> Jordan (26:12):
So saith the oracle
revised telling of the myth, King Minos
seeks a peaceful resolution with
Athens, ending the sacrifices
and fostering mutual respect.
Theseus, an Athenian prince,
volunteers to confront the Minotaur,
not to kill it, but to understand and
(26:35):
help it. Ariadne
a strong an independent woman
offers her assistance willingly, not out
of love, but out of compassion
for all involved. Together,
they navigate the labyrinth, where they discover the
Minotaur's true nature. A, misunderstood
(26:55):
being, not a monster.
Through dialogue and empathy, they
find a way to integrate the Minotaur into
society, ending its isolation.
Ariadne then chooses her own
path, exploring the world and
forging her destiny free from male
control, while Theseus
(27:17):
returns to Athens, heralded for his
wisdom and peacemaking rather
than his violence.
So there's some interesting things going on here, for
sure. What were your thoughts?
>> Kit (27:32):
I didn't hate this one. I didn't
fully understand it. There seems like there's
some things missing. You only have a paragraph.
But I liked the idea, again of this, thinking
about the Minotaur as an other or
as something or someone, that's misunderstood,
I think is an interesting idea, and I think it's something that's been discussed
(27:52):
a lot, thinking about the symbolism of the Minotaur
which is why we see it from the oracle. Again, this is a
myth that's been retconned and thought about in a lot of different
ways, and so it doesn't surprise me that this
version of it sort of brings some of those things to the
forefront.
>> Jordan (28:07):
It gets the scaffolding of things right, but
doesn't really have enough, like, individual
details. It's done a great job of
solving some of the problems that are in the
original myth, but it's not done a very good job of
offering a, compelling alternative.
>> Kit (28:24):
And it hasn't mentioned the crown, so.
>> Jordan (28:27):
That seems important in some way.
This brings us to the end of our episode
(28:49):
this week. Join us next week for the pop
culture segment of our exploration of the
constellation Corona
Borealis.
>> Kit (28:58):
This has been Kit
>> Jordan (29:00):
And Jordan.
>> Kit (29:01):
Sisters, lovers of stars and stories.
>> Jordan (29:04):
And we'll see you next time
>> Kit (29:06):
On Starry Time.
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