February 22, 2024 • 55 mins
Embark on a transformative journey with Andy McNulty, the visionary CEO of Touch Stay, as we uncover the inception of his digital guidebook service that has revolutionized the hospitality industry. From battling early skepticism to navigating strategic pricing and positioning decisions, Andy shares the exhilarating path to success. Our conversation sheds light on how passion, paired with shrewd business acumen, can carve out a niche in the competitive tech landscape, even for those with non-traditional backgrounds. I also reveal my own role in introducing software engineering talent to the team, intertwining my experiences with the fabric of Touch Stay's story.
Listen closely as we navigate the dynamic world of startup marketing, where Andy's team has cleverly expanded Touch Stay's reach beyond Airbnb hosts to an eclectic array of industries. Discover how the team managed to reposition their product, tapping into markets from vacation rental solutions to commercial elevator installations, without sacrificing their core identity. This episode is a testament to the agility and foresight required in marketing a versatile product, providing invaluable insights for entrepreneurs seeking to grow their business without losing focus.
Join us for a deep dive into the personal side of entrepreneurship, where Andy offers a candid take on the emotional and financial rollercoasters that come with building a business from the ground up. From leveraging fashion industry experience to tackling the tech world, Andy's journey is a beacon of inspiration, demonstrating that perseverance and conviction are the true drivers of success. As I share anecdotes from my own startup ventures, we bond over the shared belief that the entrepreneurial path, while fraught with challenges, is an endeavor worth pursuing for the sheer possibility of turning a vision into reality.
Try TouchStay's Digital Guide Book for your property:
https://touchstay.com/
Hire Top-Notch Remote Software Engineers:
echoglobal.tech
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey everyone and welcome to Startup Chronicles.
Today I'm super excited to haveAndy McNulty with us.
He is the CEO and a big brainbehind Touch Stay, this awesome
digital guidebook that'schanging the game for rental
owners and their guests.
We are diving into their wholeadventure how they started the
bombs along the way and how theywon over thousands of happy
customers.
We'll chat about generatingideas, taking chances, learning
(00:28):
as you go and the nitty grittyof running a tech biz when you
are not exactly a tech biz.
Fun fact, andy and I go back.
I've been lucky enough to hookTouch Stay up with some amazing
software engineers through ourcompany, echoglobaltech, which
is a sponsor of this podcast.
Stick around, this is gonna begood.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
One of them literally said I think that's the worst
idea.
I've got a PDF, I don't needanything else.
Oh, okay, but I knew that itwasn't a bad idea.
Business and startup world isfull of potential distraction.
Yeah, you know there's lots ofoh squirrel, let's go and look
over there.
You know there's plenty ofopportunity to do that.
(01:08):
It's a curiosity that I thinkevery startup business needs to
hold really close.
You have to be curious and youhave to think a little bit more
creatively, and I'm alsosomebody who will always tell
people hey, if you're not happyin what you're doing, quit
complaining, go and try and dosomething about it.
And then, guess what happened?
We got invited onto the Virginstartup accelerator, so Richard
(01:29):
Branson's Virgin.
They were offering startups tocome and join their accelerator
program, and we applied and wegot accepted and started.
The most basic decision we hadto take was do we build a native
app or do we build a web app?
Spend a little bit more time ondeveloping the network,
building the network, and then,once you've got that network, it
really pays then, because youare those just couple of degrees
(01:51):
of separation away from peoplethat really know the answer,
without some knowledge of howyou're going to price it,
without some knowledge of howyou're going to position it,
without all these other things.
You're right you are walkinginto failure if you just blindly
go because it's going to work.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Welcome to Startup Chronicles Podcast.
If you're building, or planningto build your own tech company,
this is the place where you getinspired, educated and prepared
, prepared for all thosepitfalls that are on your way,
which you will definitelyovercome, because every guest
who's on this podcast is a bigtime practitioner who's been
there and done that.
They come here to share theunique stories of their ups and
downs, providing you withavailable tips and guidance, so
(02:31):
maybe you will be the one tobuild the next unique current
company.
I'm Max, the host of thepodcast and a co-founder of a
tech recruitment company.
I'm not sitting on a bunch ofstartup secrets, but I'm also
working on a few personalprojects too.
That's the main reason why Ibrought this podcast to life to
learn from the best, alongsidewith you.
So enjoy the show and let'sdive into our next Chronicle.
Andy hi, it took us some timeto schedule this podcast and now
(02:56):
, finally, it is happening.
I'm super excited to have youhere.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I'm very well.
Thank you and sorry if I was apart of that difficulty in
scheduling because my diary wasso busy.
I think you said to me can youjoin the podcast?
About 16 months ago yeah, Ithink I can, maybe soon.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I totally understand that.
So, Andy, normally I would letthe guest introduce his company,
but since TouchStay is not thecompany that I found out about
yesterday and we know each otherfor quite a while now, if you
don't mind, I will introduceTouchStay to our listeners, and
if I get something wrong or misssomething and I probably will,
(03:35):
so I apologize in advance.
Feel free to criticize that.
Stop me and jump in, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I'll never criticize, but I might just casually
correct you.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, go for it Great , okay, so TouchStay is a
digital guidebook.
And what is a digital guidebook?
Let's imagine that you justarrived at your Airbnb or
vacation rental and then thenext morning you're ready to
explore, but then you are hitwith a barrage of questions how
does the coffee maker work?
What's the Wi-Fi password?
(04:04):
Where is the nearest restaurantor a grocery store?
And that's where TouchStaycomes to the rescue, because,
basically, the host as far as Iunderstand I might be wrong
again, but in my understanding,the host would send you the link
to the so-called lending page,which is packed with all of the
info you would need for yourstay and how I understand the
(04:27):
product.
It's not only making the lifeeasier for the guest, but also
for the host, because it helpshim to provide a top-notch
hospitality without having toanswer the same questions a
million of times.
So, yeah, andy, what do youthink?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Perfect, top of the class.
Maybe the only final part isit's not an app.
We have to get to the app storeand download stuff, or the Play
Store and download stuff orsign in to anything.
It doesn't need any of that.
It's just like a web link.
It does something clever.
Once you load the web link onyour phone, there's a little
(05:06):
prompt that allows you to add itto your home screen and then it
becomes like an app on thephone, just like your X app or
your Facebook app.
So first time I called it X.
Usually I call it Twitter.
I'm adjusting.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Well, as you said, that's what I thought it was
more like, as I said, a lendingpage.
It's not an app.
You don't have to downloadanything on your device.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
So let's imagine I am yourpotential customer and I ask you
this question why would I useyour service or your tool if I
(05:43):
could just use some commonlyknown website builders or even
notion?
It's a free tool, it's prettycustomizable why would I go for
TouchStays?
Yeah, sorry, touchstays builder.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, it's a good question.
We have a lot of people thatwill ask us why didn't?
I could just use my website,right?
I mean, the reality is thewebsite's there for people who
want to book or for people whowant to get to know, like what
you're about.
But after you've booked yourstay, or maybe you've reserved a
camper van that uses ourproduct, and once you've booked
(06:21):
your stay, the website is notthe place where you put all of
that detailed information.
Usually that's like a Word docor a Google Drive or a PDF or
something like this, becauseit's quite rich information, way
too much than you would want ona website.
So that's where it goes.
The other thing is, on awebsite they don't all allow you
(06:41):
to just seamlessly integratewith Google Places.
And what's the advantage ofthat?
Well, the host can just type inthe restaurant name, press add
and then it retrieves theinformation from Google Places,
put a nice pin on the map whichyou can choose the style of pin.
There's all these kind oflittle micro things to just make
it a little bit more fun to useand they're just a little bit
(07:03):
more versatile than a websitecan be.
So that's the main reason,that's the main difference.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Okay, great.
So I also heard from Joe.
It's another co-founder ofTouchStay.
He says this is information forour listeners.
He told me that people startedusing TouchStay's builder.
Can I say TouchStay's builder?
How should I?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, builder is a good way of describing it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Okay.
So they started usingTouchStay's builder to build
things that you didn't even have, you didn't initially even
think about, like someinstructions of you know for how
to fix the elevator or how toplan the vacation and stuff like
that.
I mean, of course that is true,but how often that is happening
(07:57):
and what are you going to dowith that?
Are you going to try to maybebuild some additional features
for those segment of yourcustomers?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes, we are, and the product is used by an Airbnb
host today.
It's used by more people thanthat, but let's think of it as
an Airbnb host.
What does an Airbnb host need?
It needs to open up the builderand just start putting all the
information that their guestsusually ask them.
So forget now Airbnb host.
(08:29):
Think about A&O, that anybodyin any industry, anywhere who
has a lot of questions that getasked the same questions over
and over again.
Now you open up a guidebook.
You create a guidebook thatanswers those questions.
So it could be the schoolprincipal who wants to send all
of the parents a prospectus sothat their kids who are coming
(08:50):
to that school know what thecurriculum is, what their
philosophy is like, whatactivities they have.
We have people doing aTouchStay guide for their school
.
Think about onboarding youremployee.
A new employee comes into thebusiness.
There's so many things that theyneed to know about that company
.
Just put it all in a guide.
You mentioned the lift one.
(09:11):
The lift one's funny.
So we had an Australiancustomer who installs commercial
elevators in big officebuildings and they have about
eight different commercialelevators, different
specifications.
They create a TouchStay guidefor each of their eight
elevators and they hand theTouchStay guide to the building
operator when they install thelift.
(09:32):
So it's like a manual for yourcar.
That's what they give you.
Here's how to use the lift,here's what's difficult, here's
who to call, here's the spec andall this kind of stuff.
We are taking that.
We didn't intend that, joe'sright.
These are people that justfound our website and decided,
(09:52):
oh, I wonder if I could do this.
And they tried it and they didit, and then, of course, we were
thrilled.
Why would we not want that tohappen?
So, to answer your question,this year we are building out
some other use cases that wewill, in fact now include on the
website more overtly and wewill mark it to those segments.
So the two we're going to gofor is the employee market, so
(10:15):
the employee onboarding and theemployee manual and the employee
training, and then also whatwe're calling standard operating
procedures.
Every business has standardoperating procedures, which are
usually kept in a word, doc orPDF or something like that.
Now you can use Touchday tocreate your SOP.
So those are the two kind ofones that we're going to start
going after.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, that makes me wonder, because that probably
make you reconsider yourmarketing approach, because the
way you put this product infront of rental owners probably
would be a different compared toyou know people who want to
make some instructions, oronboard people.
(10:54):
Have you thought about that?
Are you going to change themarketing approach or not?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, subtly, but we don't have to do anything too
complicated because the productis the key and the product can
serve any of those use casesthat we spoke about.
There's nothing in the productthat needs to change.
It's ready to go.
The question is what do we dowhen someone lands on
(11:19):
Touchdaycom and they're anAirbnb host?
We don't want them to landthere and to be scared and to
suddenly think wait, I'm in thewrong place, this is not for me.
But also we need the person whowants to install the lifts in a
building and who wants a manualfor their elevator to come and
to also understand that thisisn't for Airbnb host and it's
also for me.
(11:40):
And really, if you look at theway we position our product and
the way we talk about ourproduct, there's very little
language that's unique to anyparticular type of person.
It's much more around.
You save time answeringquestions.
You can build a guide thatexists on Word or PDF.
Really simply, you can add asmany photos as you want.
(12:00):
You can add as much text as youwant.
You can build your own headings.
You can use a map if you want.
You can put links.
There's so many things that areuniversal that we don't need to
change, to be honest, that much.
So it's much more about how weattack the marketing.
So right now, all of ourmarketing effort and our focus
goes into what we call theshort-term rental landscape,
which is the Airbnb hostlandscape, and now we're talking
(12:24):
about what we need to take someof that money and put it into
another industry vertical andit's a complicated subject and
we don't have time to discuss itnow.
But you're right, it's a partof what we're thinking and it's
definitely a part of the brainthat's shifting a little bit to
(12:44):
say what else we can do withthis product and there's a lot
of opportunity and it's reallyfun as well.
People just like creatingguides to all sorts of things
and if we can hold on to thatconcept, we don't need to
overthink too much the marketing.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah.
So can we sum this up by sayingthat it's just a little bit
different positioning approach,right, because TouchStay is
known in the travel industry.
When I hear TouchStay I thinkabout traveling, rental
properties, vacation.
But what you have to do,different is probably position
(13:20):
for a different kind ofcustomers.
Just short yes or no would workexactly.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It is a different position.
I mean, the answer yes or no isvery simplistic, but you're
right that that's the challenge.
It's like yeah, you know, whatI say max is is Business and
startup world is full ofpotential distraction.
Yeah, you know there's lots ofoh squirrel.
Let's go look over there.
You know there's.
(13:47):
There's plenty of opportunityto do that.
And the way I look at this, inthe way we've spoken about it as
a team, the, the benefit, theuniqueness we have here is we
don't need to be distracted withthe product.
Okay, we don't need to startdeveloping all these other
features.
We, we don't need to thinkabout how we present the product
to somebody.
That that's the easy bit, right, and that is often the hardest
(14:08):
bit, isn't it to take yourproduct and try and shift it to
make it work for anotherAudience?
We don't have to do that, itworks.
So now we just talk about wherewe want to focus our marketing
dollars and so far We've built areally good reputation in the,
the Airbnb world.
That that I don't want to set tomachine.
But there's, there's a, there'sa nice gentle kind of you know,
(14:30):
regular stream of business thatcomes Organically direct.
You know, we can talk aboutthat.
That's very complicated too,yeah.
So yes, that's the way I lookat it.
It's like we will havedistractions, but I think if you
can really understand, then youcan.
Just that's the learning, isn'tit?
It's like what how do yousimplify what you do so that an
idea can come to fury fruitionwithout completely ruining your
(14:53):
business by taking it off insome other path?
I Gave you more than yes or no,sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, but that's, that's good to hear.
So.
But also we can say thatdistraction is not always a bad
thing, right?
Because sometimes it could beblessing in disguise If you, if
you were not distracted, maybe,maybe that's a very good, you
know, pivoting opportunity orjust another Great potential
feature opportunity that youwould discover when you are
(15:22):
distracted.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I Totally agree.
It's a curiosity that I thinkevery startup business needs to
hold really close.
You have to be curious and youhave to think a little bit more
creatively and and and.
In doing that, there comes therisk of the distraction, and
that's where you have to bereally self-aware, you know, and
you have to, you have to justand it's it's hard to think,
(15:45):
like you know, it's hard tothink about how you approach
that challenge, but the, the,the creativity, should always be
there.
The creativity generates ideasas well.
And the challenges then to makeideas happen, like you can All
two.
We used to be really bad.
We used to talk about ideasevery five minutes and then we
just have like a hundred ideas.
Then we'd be like, wow, thatwas so energizing.
Okay, but but what, what likewhat?
(16:07):
So what, what's next?
So we're not like that anymore.
We do still have ideation, butwhat we really want to do is
think about when we come up withan idea, so what, why?
What are we gonna do about it?
How are we gonna do it?
You know, that's the key.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah.
So talking of ideas, thatreally leads me to my next
question.
I have to tell you something,andy.
I remember vividly the firsttime I was introduced to you
guys.
I checked your website and Iwas impressed by how it was such
a simple, yet creative andpromising idea for a startup.
But at the same time I had kindof like Mixed feelings because
at the first glance it seemedlike it was too simple to be a
(16:41):
valid startup idea.
You know what I mean.
As I said before, first thingthat comes to my mind, there are
some other alternatives.
You already explained that wedon't have to go there, but
still, I just want to go back tothat time when the idea for
touch stay was born.
Tell me a little bit more aboutit.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Who, where and why hmm, I always Stayed in what we
call vacation rentals holidayevery me, it's what we call an
Airbnb.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
now, I always stayed in those.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
My parents used to take me to them all the time,
and so then, when I startedhaving kids, you know you don't
want to pay a small hotel room,you want a bit more space, and
you then sometimes it's cheapernot so much anymore, is probably
more close to a hotel, but soso I started taking my kids To
stay in vacation rentals, andthen I realized every time I
(17:31):
went that that I didn't knowanything about the area, and so
I would call up the host and I'dbe like I'm bringing my kids,
we want to know where to get thebest pizza.
And then, like, just like this,the host says, oh, you've got
to try this place, it's the bestplace on the island.
(17:51):
Okay, so then next time my kidsare really looking for ice
cream, but I don't want to takethem to.
Like the, the, the traditionalhigh street brand I want to take
them to.
Is that a really good ice cream?
Oh, yeah, yeah, you have totake them here.
And so gradually, all thesethings kept happening and and
then you go into the home andthen, and then you pick up, you
pick up in the home and you pickup this thing, like this binder
, and you turn and like, yeah,there's, page three is dropping
(18:14):
out and page six has a coffeestain on it and it's like sick.
You know, the recommendationsare three years out of date, so
it was a real shame.
So we just decided there has tobe a better way digital version
.
And to your point aboutsimplicity, excuse me, I had so
many of my, my friends who Itell them about this, they, they
would, they would be likethat's terrible idea, that's
(18:35):
just such a bad idea.
And I remember asking a coupleof friends who've got holiday
homes and One of them literallysaid I think it's the worst idea
.
I've got a PDF, I don't needanything else.
Okay, but I knew that it wasn'ta bad idea, I knew it was a
good idea.
And it's not only about, oh,I've got a PDF, but it's okay.
(18:59):
So, how, how easy it is toupdate that PDF.
Do you print that PDF?
Yeah, I printed.
Oh, okay, what happens to pagethree when you need to change it
?
I, I have to print out pagethree and then I have to drive
to my, to my villa, and thentake out the binder and unclip
it and put that, you know.
So it's not.
It's not like.
Simplicity is is also aboutMaking it easy for someone.
(19:24):
So simplicity often is seen asa oh, that's negative, because
that's such a simple product.
But simplicity is what we allwant and I'm glad you said
simple at the start.
I used to apologize in theearly days for having a simple
product and now it's our massivestrength.
You know, people are so busy.
We're like juggling many balls,spinning plates, busy lives but
(19:44):
we have so many technologyproducts available, don't we?
It's just bewildering how manytechnology products they are,
how many of them are really easyto use straight away.
And and that's the differencehere this is not.
This is not a tool where itrequires you to do you know so
many complex processes, or plugin this or publish this or no
code, or it's just not.
(20:05):
It's like if you can use a worddoc, you can use touch thing.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Okay.
So that is a really interestingstory.
But still, you got an idea,then you introduced it to, you
pitch that idea to your friends.
Then they said that's aterrible idea.
You explain them why it is nota terrible idea.
Because you cannot, you know,update PDF or print it.
Why did you feel so confidentthat it, the opportunity, is
(20:31):
worth the opportunity cost?
Because I I assume I might bewrong, but at that time you did
not have any Competitors, right,and that could be a pretty good
red flag.
If you don't have competition,what that means.
That means that there is nodemand for this right,
potentially.
So how did you approach theidea validation?
(20:52):
How?
What was the triggers or themain indicators for you that?
Yeah, I want to try thatbecause I know that you had
full-time job we will talk aboutthat a little bit later but
tell me, how did you reallyvalidate that idea that you had
green light to go full-time?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
hmm, that that let's talk about that job in a little
bit.
That that's interesting Becausethat's a really important part
of our story which is differentfrom what a lot of people have.
We had this idea and peoplesaid it was terrible, but that
didn't matter, because it didn'tstop us developing it.
Why?
Because we had the security offull-time, paid employment in
(21:27):
good jobs somewhere else and itbecame a hobby really for a
while.
So eventually, to your question, like, what made you what?
What made you then decide, okay, now I can launch it and how,
how do I launch it?
And and why do you ignore theperson that says?
It's simple because Really, westarted that four years after we
founded the business.
For four years we were justworking and earning nice money
(21:49):
and we didn't want to jump intothis, this idea.
We let this thing just bubbleaway and I think we probably had
one or two hundred customers inthat time and it was really
useful, very useful, becausethose customers can tell us you
know things about the product,the use case and and the feature
set and the ease of use of theproduct, and that really helped
because when we came to launchit, we, we, we knew a little bit
(22:14):
more about our customer.
We knew a little bit more aboutwhat they want and we had that
luxury to wait those many yearsto gain that learning.
But also in those many yearsthen people started to realize
that if they wanted toprofessionalize their operations
so running an Airbnb used to belike a side gig.
Now people are doing it forreal.
It's a business they reallywant to make it, you know, very,
(22:35):
very good for the guest.
You know those days where youused to turn up to a holiday
villa and and there would be nosharp knife or you know the the
cups would be broken or whatever.
That doesn't.
That still happen sometimes,but in the good places that
doesn't happen anymore.
So the level of professionalismhas gone up and that meant that
people place a greater value onwhat their guests receive in
(22:57):
terms of service.
And that's really where we sawthe opportunity in like 2018,
2019, to really launch into itand we took a little bit of seed
capital tiny amount from ourcustomers which allows to do
some marketing, allowed us toemploy one another person,
mm-hmm and and to build on this.
This kind of shift we could seehappening in terms of
(23:18):
professionalism and for us youknow I'm not going to lie.
Of course, there was a lot ofluck involved too, and and some
of the luck I don't want to callit luck.
It's tricky because COVIDhappened and it was terrible for
so many people and it was forus.
For many months.
We had no business, but we werehealthy and we were able,
(23:41):
because we had resiliency withcash, to be able to sustain the
development team that workedwith us, for example.
But when that, when COVIDhappened and people started
opening up their airbnbs againand they were allowed to host
guests, guess what they allwanted?
A digital product to be able tocommunicate with their guests
in a more remote way.
And so that element of fortunein a way for us that we had a
(24:05):
product positioned at the righttime Did, did help us to grow.
So I don't know if thatanswered your question, but that
was like a quick leap betweenfounding the business and, you
know, the last few years.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Okay, so Before touch stay you worked at if I'm not
mistaking I checked yourLinkedIn profile you worked as a
chief financial officer atGucci and then Victoria back him
.
That sounds like a prettystable Job.
That would make you to Considervery, very well whether you
really want to quit the job andDo what what you are doing,
(24:41):
full-time.
So, because that was probablyyour safety net also that helped
, you know, to get some tractionwith touch stay, as you said,
you know because, I'm sure that,even though you had a few
hundred customers, that probablyBarely covered some of your
expenses that you had, you know.
Tell me when did you feel thatyou really gained that traction
(25:03):
and how much time did it takeBetween the time you started
working on it on touch stays astartup and between the time you
quit your full-time job?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
You're right.
Those businesses that I didwork in those fashion businesses
, those names you mentioned werea huge amount of fun and they
were extremely challenging forgrowth potential and for
learning.
Huge amount of fun.
Working with creative people asa finance person is probably
(25:38):
just about the most exciting andalso the hardest thing you can
do, because the creative peopleshow you that energy which so
often as a finance team youdon't see.
But also those creative peopleare creative people.
They bring their challenges.
They want to spend money.
They've got ideas.
You know so.
Tools are very challenging.
So a fantastic experience and Iwould say even predating that
my experience is even before.
(25:59):
Fashion were foundational for menow in the startup world.
So now I can relate to people,I can talk to people, I can
understand people.
I know finance, I know goodcash flow discipline, margin
discipline.
I understand the creativitythat goes into building a
product, but also the routinethat goes into building a
product.
Every business, no matter howcreative, has a certain number
of processes you have to followto make a product happen.
(26:20):
So all of that was foundational, but all of that also was very
lucrative.
So I was earning a lot of nicemoney.
So that's what I said in thosefirst four years I didn't have
to worry too much about touchday, whether it succeeded or not
, because it wasn't my food, youknow, it wasn't my lifeline.
So I I just let it kind of keepgoing.
But I had, I had built I'vebeen half money for me in 2000
(26:44):
and at the end of 2017.
So, going into 2018 to say,okay, I'm going to stop now
working in fashion and I'm goingto pursue touch there because
now is the right time.
But also I knew at that time inmy life that I needed a
different challenge.
And I'm also somebody who willalways tell people hey, if
(27:04):
you're not happy in what you'redoing, quit complaining, go and
try and do something about it.
And there's always so manyexcuses.
But it's not that easy, I'd youknow.
Blah, blah, blah.
Okay, we all make excuses.
If you have the guts and theconviction to do something else,
then you go do it.
And that's what I did.
So I held myself to that samebar.
So I did that in 2018.
And I and I went for a long timewithout a salary, like a long
(27:27):
time and but, but I was able todo that.
That's not a poor me story,it's not.
You know it's like I'm notgoing to pretend or make up this
lovely startup story of how Ilike, just boost up the years
and I had the luxury of beingable to lean on savings I'd made
from my previous career, so itdidn't matter that 200 customers
(27:49):
were paying you know peanutsrelative to the costs.
And then guess what happened?
We got invited onto the, to theVirgin startup accelerator.
So Richard Branson's Virginthey were.
They were offering startups tocome and join their accelerator
program and we applied and wegot accepted and we joined that
program.
That allowed us to raise alittle bit of capital.
(28:09):
It also took us through therigor of whether or not our
product was really commerciallyviable, which was very useful to
do, and out of that reallyspawned the rest of the touch
day story.
You know we raised enoughcapital for us to start taking a
bit of salary still nothingmuch it.
We raised enough to be able totake on some new people into the
team.
You know we iteratively builtand because of my financial
(28:30):
discipline I could think abouthow we could do that sustainably
and build a business.
And the nice thing about SASand the SAS model is provided
you don't have a horrible churn,which we don't.
There's a compounding effect.
So every year you retain mostof the business that you sold
last year, you bring it intothis year and now you add to it.
So it's very, very good fromthe ability to financially plan
(28:51):
when you have a low churnbusiness like we do.
And yeah, I forgot where yourquestion was.
Max, you can tell I liketalking.
Did I answer it?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
No, it's really interesting to listen to your
story and I have a questionabout that startup accelerator
how difficult was to be acceptedwhen you applied?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
We were one of eight businesses that got accepted
onto it and I heard that therewere there were tons of
applications, and so I mean wegot accepted because we had we
had to do a like, we had to sendin a reason why there was a
long, very, very, very fullapplication and because we'd
(29:37):
already proved a certainviability of our product and
because probably our backgroundstoo we looked like you know
people who you know maybe werewere more positioned to make it
a success because we hadexperience already, I don't know
.
Then we had some interviewprocesses and when we met the
people and then we eventuallygot onto it, so it wasn't, it
wasn't a difficult process.
(29:58):
There wasn't, you know, a lotof.
We didn't have to go off siteand be grilled by a panel or
anything like this.
It was.
It was a relatively easyprocess and and yeah, we went on
, it was like an eight week,maybe a 10 week program, I think
, and the whole point of it wasto build towards doing a
crowdfund and we quicklyrealized we didn't want to
crowdfund because we're notreally a B to C, you know.
(30:20):
so we're not.
We had people on our cohort whowere selling direct to a
consumer and then you cancrowdfund.
It's an easier connection.
So we we didn't, but we did goto the pitch evening.
So at the end of theaccelerator you go and pitch to
a room full of potentialinvestors.
There are investors who justlike, put a bit of money in this
, and bigger ones too, and thatwas a really good experience to
(30:43):
go through, like the trainingand the rigor that they gave us
about how to, you know, do our10 second pitch and then you
know how to then craft apresentation that was
interesting and engaging forpeople and how to position
yourself so that it lookedattractive from an investor
perspective.
All of that stuff was reallygood, good stuff to do.
So I was really fortunate.
(31:05):
We were really fortunate to getthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
So that partially answered my next question,
because I was thinking, whengetting things off the ground
with TouchStay, I'm sure thatthere were lots of things that
you had already professionalexperience with, but also there
are probably even more thingsthat you had no idea about,
right Even when we talk aboutbuilding a new company,
technical things and so on.
So what practical skills orknowledge you were lacking at
(31:33):
the beginning of your journeywith TouchStay that you gained
as you got into drawing?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I'd never worked in a technology company, I'd have
zero development experience, andso that part of the startup
journey was completely alien tome.
But that's where Joe is aperfect foil.
So it's perfect kind ofco-founder because, although he
doesn't develop, he's veryfamiliar with the more technical
(32:00):
side of things.
And, again, he hasn't worked ina tech business but he has
overseen IT projects and ITtransitions and he understands
how to manage a team oftechnical people and the
different stakeholders involvedin that, both commercially and
operationally and technically.
So the worry of not havingtechnical experience didn't
(32:23):
bother us and in some ways itwas good, because I think if I
was a developer or if I knew thetech world in a lot of depth, I
might kind of put some barriersin my own way.
I can't do that because of this.
Sometimes it's better that youdon't know what you don't know,
because you just have thefreedom, you go and do it and
you make the mistakes, and Ithink that was helpful.
(32:44):
We also, of course, in the earlydays had to really struggle
with knowing whether or not thedevelopment partner that we
wanted to use was really good ornot, because we had no
experience.
Somebody could have just beengiving some load of BS and we
wouldn't really have known itand we worked with the first
(33:06):
iteration of the product was adeveloper in New Mexico,
albuquerque, and they built avery decent first product, but
the developer, who kneweverything about our product,
walked out the door one day andthey left and we didn't have
anyone that could do it.
There was no resiliency in theagency we used, so that was a
scary time, like transitioningthat to somewhere else.
(33:28):
So we moved it to a UK agencywho introduced us eventually to
Echo, echo Global, and Echo'steam of developers have been
with us since well, I forget thefirst developer like 2018,
maybe, probably, yeah, and thatwas the transition and so, yeah,
the unknown tech landscape andthe development environment was
(33:51):
kind of scary, and I would saywe've made some mistakes along
the way too, because there arecertain things that even Joe
doesn't know because he's neverbeen so close to the development
world A lot of architecturestaff, a lot of, maybe, best
practice for doing certainthings which, if we had 10 or 15
years of tech experience, we'dknow instantly what the answer
was.
We stumbled across some of thoseother things, but there are
(34:11):
lots of other things that wewere very good at that.
We were very, you know, couldeat.
That were natural to us, thatwe had experience of that.
Maybe some other startups don'thave that experience.
So it's a balance, isn't it?
With startups, you don't knoweverything, but you have to be
resilient and try and figure itout and find the right people
who do which, thankfully, withsome missteps along the way, we
did eventually do.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
That's great.
You see, you also answered myanother question that I was
planning to ask you about howshould one?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
no, that's great, that's actually amazing.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
That means we are on the same page.
So my next question wasactually how should one approach
a building a tech companywithout having much technical
background?
And based on what you just said, I think that the best way is
to have a partner who is moretechnical than you right, so you
should be strong in oneparticular area.
(35:00):
In your case, it's finance,right and planning and then you
have Joe who is more, has moreproject management experience.
He knows more abouttechnologies, tech stacks,
framework and all those kind ofthings.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Correct.
Yeah, but neither of us knew adeveloper, neither of us knew a
good developer, and that was ourfirst challenge was how to find
that.
And even the first one wepicked was not the one we ended
up with.
And that's where I think thatin an ideal world, with
hindsight, we would have spentsix months finding the right
(35:38):
person and asking our networkand we both have big networks
and somebody would have said tous don't forget doing that, this
is who you should go and use,and so that's natural.
That's just a part that youhave to accept in the startup
world, that there's no preciseformula.
You have to figure stuff out.
But I would say also, where youdon't have expertise, it's not
(36:06):
a reason not to do something,and I think the lack of
expertise you actually said itquite nicely it's the lack of
expertise is, in a way, forcesyou to find the people who do
have that expertise, and thenyou have a better business
because it's not all reliant onyou.
You're finding someone else whocan do that with you.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I see.
So, andy, I'm not sure whetheryou are the right person to ask
this question.
Could you please walk methrough the process of how you
selected the text stack that youare using for your product?
What were the key criteria thatguided your decision and,
ultimately, what text stack didyou settle on for it?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I'd say You're definitely asking the wrong
question, max, where we need tocall Joe up right now and say
Jack, you're asking thisquestion.
I'll give you the most basicone, though.
When we first started, the mostbasic decision we had to take
was do we build a native app ordo we build a web app?
And that I understood, becauseI understood what it meant to go
(37:11):
to the app store or the playstore and I understood what it
meant to go to the website, andwe took a lot of time trying to
decide that.
But you know what?
We ended up picking the rightpath, not because, let's say, by
accident, we decided to go fora web app.
Why did we go for a web app?
(37:31):
Because we thought thatdeveloping an app for the app
store or the play store wouldjust be a bit more technical and
might also require us to takelonger to make releases.
I have no idea whether that'sthe case or not anymore, but I
think it used to be, and so wedecided to go with the web app,
and we also had in mind, I'msure and I could definitely talk
(37:53):
myself into this now and say,oh yes, we had the user in mind
and we knew it would be mucheasier for them to go to a web
app and all of these greatthings that we realized today.
But that was the first decision.
Once we took that decision to goto a web app, the next decision
was who to build it and,frankly, some of the people we
asked were just so expensivethat we just said no, we can't
use them.
So eventually we ended up inthe area of someone could build
(38:15):
a web app who was recommended tous.
So one of the more expensivebuilders I said to him is so
expensive and he said what areyou trying to build?
And I said you can't do it forthat cheap money.
I said but that's it, that'sall we've got.
We can't do it for anythingmore.
And he said well, actually I'vejust come across this new
company that started in NewMexico and Albuquerque and
they're more of a web agency,but they've got a development
(38:37):
arm now and I think it's thingsabout them and that was it.
That's what introduced us.
But after that, why did wedecide to do it in Python and
with Django and View and likeall these names to me are just
development names?
I don't know why View is betterthan a different front end.
I know it's a front end, but Idon't know why.
(38:59):
That is Joe's area.
Definitely.
I would say that we relied onexperts, though, too.
The UK agency we use were quiteimportant for that, and then,
of course, echo definitely werevery influential in that too,
and the Echo team was great,because we didn't have just
developers but we also hadaccess to the other people in
the development in the Echo teamwho could guide us through
(39:23):
finding the right person withthe right skills, and that was
really important to us, and Ithink without that, we would
have definitely stumbled for alot longer with our development
challenge.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Great.
So can we take a lesson fromwhat you just said and say that
whatever area you are, not youdon't have enough confidence in
you.
Just go and find somebody whohas more confidence, more
experience, and ask them forhelp.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah for sure.
And it doesn't need to be thatthat person needs to be in your
team.
That person can just be someonewho is in your network, who
knows somebody we're not.
You know what's the number ofdegrees of separation from
everyone in the world?
Like seven degrees or something.
I cover what it is.
So certainly in your networkyou could find within a couple
of steps some real experts inthat field, and I think too many
(40:12):
people don't do that.
Too many people still think Icould figure this out by myself,
or you know it's.
I would say with hindsight,it's the wrongs, the wrong path.
Spend a little bit more time ondeveloping the network,
building the network, and then,once you've got that network, it
really pays then, because youare those just a couple of
degrees of separation away frompeople that really know the
answer.
You know like, oh, should I doXYZ in my development?
(40:36):
Okay, this person over herewho's in my network just tells
me the answer in five minutes,and then I've saved myself a
whole bunch of pain.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
That's right.
So there is.
There is another.
Well, actually we have alreadytouched a little bit on idea
validation, but I would like totalk a little bit more about
that.
So, given that you have allthat experience, that you have
experience of successes, maybe,maybe some failures as well,
overcoming challenges, you musthave already developed some kind
(41:04):
of framework for validating newideas.
I understand that you know itis a very extensive and complex
topic, but if you had to startall over again with a brand new
idea for SAS product, or maybewhen you have some idea for a
new feature, what would be yourfirst steps to validate the idea
?
How do you decide whether theopportunity cost is worth a shot
(41:28):
?
Speaker 2 (41:30):
We probably have a different perspective and a
unique position versus somebodywho's just starting.
I think the answer to thequestion would be different
depending on the stage you're at.
Where we are.
We have, you know, quite a niceuser base now, and so one of
the things we did do last yearwas to ask that user base.
You know, here's a list ofthings that we think are
(41:50):
important to develop.
Next, what do you think Like?
Go and vote on them.
And the user base gave us aload of votes and then we
prioritized some of those thingsto develop those things.
And then, of course, there areother product features that we
already know are definitelygoing to benefit, because we've
been on customer calls and we'veheard some of their pains and
(42:11):
we've seen that competitors arenot doing that.
So there's a commercialopportunity too, and those we
wouldn't necessarily ask ouraudience to validate.
We just know that they wouldlike them.
Whereas if I was just startingout with a brand new product
with no user base and I wantedto understand how to validate my
idea, I don't think there's aperfect answer.
(42:32):
I think it comes down a littlebit to conviction.
You know, had I had, I soimagine, when I first started
this and my validation was toask all of those people who told
me I was drunk and that it wasa stupid idea and I would have
never, I would never have doneit, you know.
So there's also like there hasto be some conviction, some gut
feel to know that.
You know.
There's has to be like a Idon't want to call it visionary,
(42:54):
that's very grand, but you cansee it.
You can see a potential in aproduct that other people can't
see it.
And it doesn't mean that youknow how to do it and to develop
it.
You need to have other peopleto help you see that, that bring
that idea into fruition andinto light.
But I think in early stages youdo, I mean, but possibly you
(43:14):
need to be, you need to have alittle bit more objectivity.
I may be simplifying it, so Idid already.
I did already know the industrybecause I'd stayed as a guest,
and that's fundamental to ourproduct is we have to experience
it, we have to know what theproduct use cases.
I knew that, I already knewthat and my many experiences
showed me that.
And then I mentioned earlierabout the industry
professionalizing.
(43:34):
So we also knew that there wasa degree of learning that the
industry had towards this kindof product, and so it's not
purely just what's in my gut,let's go do it.
You know that's, that's alsononsense, but there has to be
that that carries you through,together with those other things
that you either know throughhaving experienced a gap in the
(43:54):
market, or, if you're luckyenough, perhaps you've, you've,
you've, you've already, you knowgot a whole bunch of testing.
That's been done and you know.
But that's not the case formany startups.
You're starting with someonebrand new.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Exactly so.
When you said that you musthave conviction and God feeling,
what I hear is biased opinion,to be honest, because when you
really like something, you don'twant to hear what you don't
want to hear, you know.
You only want to hear thoseopinion of other people that
would confirm idea that you'repassionate about.
And when you said that you musthave some fundamental
(44:33):
experience in that area, I thinkthat is very important to have
because if you are jumping insome niche or area where you
know it seems pretty to you butyou have zero experience, I
think that might be veryfrustrating over time.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean you're right to check meon this point, because we've
got like an hour in the podcastand really this is.
This is the kind of thing thatwe could talk a lot more about,
because it is really important.
You know, the gut conviction isimportant.
Like you need to.
You need, as a, as a, as aleader and a founder, to know
(45:12):
that what you're doing has thepotential to work.
Otherwise, like well, it's justnever going to work.
So that has to come first.
Like you have to really havethat desire and that energy, but
you also really have to havethe wisdom and I have a lot of
great hearing and, but I wasn'talways this great, and so I did
start, not necessarily with alot of wisdom, but the wisdom
that I have now has has clearlyshown me that the courage and
(45:36):
the conviction and the gutfeeling, without Also some
knowledge of the market, withoutsome knowledge of how you're
going to price it, without someknowledge of how you're going to
position it, without all theseother things, you're right, you
are walking into failure if youjust blindly go because it's
going to work, you're right.
(46:00):
But I do think that that has tocome first.
Like you do need to have thedrive and the ambition, because
there are going to be so manytimes where it's really hard and
you feel like giving up, or youface a challenge or someone
shouts at you or the websitegoes down or there's all of
these things where you reallyneed to feel that this is worth
(46:23):
doing, to have that resiliencyto continue going.
So it's a real balance, max.
But I would love I could talkall day about this, because I
think it really is fundamentalto understanding what makes a
startup succeed.
It's not any one of thosethings, but it does start with
energy and conviction and avision.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, you see, I actually have so many more
questions that I was planning toask because I deviated from my
original plan and I cannot notask about something that I hear
you're talking.
So I've asked a lot ofquestions that I was not
planning to and I left asidesome of the questions that I was
(47:05):
planning to ask.
But anyway, because, as yousaid, we do have a limited time
for this podcast Reflecting backto your early days, say 10
years ago, 2014, when everythingwas just starting, because I
remember I checked your Ibelieve it was TouchState's
Instagram profile you with thecake with candles.
(47:27):
It said the first double digitbirthday of TouchState.
Right, let's go back to thattime, 10 years ago.
If someone had predicted thatby 2024, you'd be at this point
in your journey where you areright now.
Would that have matched yourexpectations?
Yeah, let's just put it likewould that have matched your
(47:50):
expectations?
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yes, yeah, hands down .
When you first start a business, you imagine that it could be
successful.
You could, at a most basiclevel, that you could pay
yourself a salary.
That's the most basic thing,but you don't know whether
(48:12):
you're going to succeed on thatjourney.
And then the next step is can Ipay myself a salary and can I
make my life easier and a morescalable product by then having
other people in the team who Ipay myself a salary?
And then, after all of that, isthere still some profit in the
business after you've done allthat?
That allows you to take adecision to reinvest it into
(48:34):
further growth or to startthinking about taking cash out
of the business.
And these are things that youonly dream about having the
luxury of having to decide inthe years.
So, absolutely back then, forme the barometer was can I pay
myself and Joe, can we togetherhave a business that pays
(48:56):
ourselves to exist and to live?
That's the basic doingsomething that is our own, not
having another boss and nothaving to travel into London
every day.
We were remote work from thestart.
It's not a new thing for us.
So all of those things are bigticks in the boxes, but there
(49:18):
were never things that Iimagined that would definitively
happen.
We just didn't know.
So we just went year to year toyear to year and now sitting
here today and, if I looked backto where we started, it's been
a long journey to get here,because 10 years is a long time,
but don't forget, we had moreor less five or six of those
years where we were doing ourcorporate job.
(49:40):
So I am really really proud andreally happy of what we've
built, and it definitely tickswhere I would have expected it,
more than what I expected it tobe.
And the question is now whatelse could it become?
And that's what keeps you going, that's the fuel for continuing
(50:00):
to build.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Exactly.
I'm really glad to hear thatyou are fulfilled with what you
have now, and I'm sure thatyou're very motivated to keep
growing.
And so, looking at the currentlandscape, what are some of the
most ambitious goals thatTouchStay is aiming to achieve
in the near future?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Well, we touched on it earlier, taking the product
into a completely different setof verticals, and it's
interesting because now I talkto people about that and they go
.
That's a terrible idea.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
It's almost like it was, you know.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
But this comes back now to a little bit about okay,
let's break it down, which partsof this are risky?
Which parts of this are notrisky?
The product not risky becauseit works in any vertical.
The marketing probably risky.
What type of marketing?
You break it down and you thinka bit more methodically about
it and you can address each ofthose risks.
So we have a team now who havevery, very, very smart brains
(50:54):
and where I maybe can't seesomething, someone else on the
team can see something and wefind a solution to wear around
it.
And also there's a verytactical, strategic way you
approach this.
You don't just suddenly go boom, that's what we're going to do.
You know, you build into it.
There's a lot of nuance thatgoes into this.
So I would say that's the nextbig opportunity for us and, yeah
(51:18):
, I'm excited to see where itgoes.
And I also want to say, max,that I also don't want anybody
listening to think that this wasjust like the dream story.
It just all happened and it wasall beautiful, and no, like it
was very stressful.
You know, when you quit yourjob and eventually the money
does run out, okay, like Ididn't have millions of wealth
that I'd accumulated.
At a certain point you startrunning into like real, can I
(51:41):
pay my mortgage?
You know all this kind of stuffand it's stressful when it's
your business.
And then you look and you lookoutside in the market and you're
wondering what's going tohappen in the market.
You know what macro factors,other companies you know and it
that it's like it's not easy,like it's not.
This has been a really, really,really hard but a very
rewarding and a very satisfyingjourney.
(52:05):
But but you know let's be eyesopen that it's not.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, maybe it would havesounded like a dream story if
you started this six months ago,you know, and now you are where
you are, but it's been 10 yearsof ups and downs, different
kind of challenges that youovercome, so of course I don't
think that your your storysounds pretty interesting, but
(52:32):
definitely not something that isthat seems to be very easy, you
know, to do.
Okay, so for our listeners whomaybe own some rental properties
and are interested in tryingtouch stays product, what's the
simplest way or the best way forthem to start using your
product or try?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
touch daycom.
Click the free trial button,have two weeks free trial.
Poke around, see what's there.
We have a really extensive setof help articles, videos, this
kind of thing.
The product is super simple.
Like I said, I think, earlierin the call, if you can use a
word doc, that's what touch dayis.
You just have differentsections where you have a text
editor.
(53:11):
You write the stuff, add videos, add photos, whatever you need,
save, move on to the next one.
It's not really that difficultand the two week free trial is
definitely enough time for youto see whether or not it's
something that you can do.
Because that's the firstchallenge Can I do this?
Can I do the software?
Is it something that I can do?
And then I know a lot ofcustomers who get a real kick
(53:35):
out of using it because it'ssatisfying.
Like, when you can do somethinglike this, it's.
You think it's difficult andthen you realize it's really
easy and then at the end youhave your own thing, you have
your own guide, it's yours andso, yeah, that's the best way,
like that two week free trial.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Great, so just go to touchstaycom and the any final
advice.
To sum this up, one, twosentences for everyone who's
just at the starting line ofbuilding their tech companies.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I mean, I think probably my key bit of advice is
not to obsess over the details.
And the challenge is to thatkind of more vision and that
conviction and find that energythat you know you can do it,
(54:26):
like there's this kind of innerconfidence that we all have
somewhere.
Tap into that and then look forthe different solutions to some
of the problems you come upagainst.
But it's really that startingpoint, like you have to have
that belief that what you'reabout to start is going to work,
because if you don't have thatand you start, you're going to
quickly run out of energy andnot and life's too short Do you
(54:50):
want to waste X number of months, years, when you don't really
feel it?
No, move on, do something else.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
It is.
It is short and, yeah, that's areally great advice.
Thank you, andy, and I want tothank you again for coming.
I know it wasn't easy for youto find time and appreciate you
did.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Thank you for having me.
I've enjoyed it.
It's good time to sit andreflect on things.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
Thank you.
Thank you Awesome, andy.
You have a great day and takecare you too.
Bye.
Thanks for listening everyoneand if you like this podcast,
make sure to follow on whateverplatform you're using to get
your podcasts.
Also, if you could leave areview, that would be highly
highly appreciated.
Thanks, and I'll see you in thenext episodes.
Take care.
Hey everyone and welcome to Startup Chronicles.
Today I'm super excited to haveAndy McNulty with us.
He is the CEO and a big brainbehind Touch Stay, this awesome
digital guidebook that'schanging the game for rental
owners and their guests.
We are diving into their wholeadventure how they started the
bombs along the way and how theywon over thousands of happy
customers.
We'll chat about generatingideas, taking chances, learning
(00:28):
as you go and the nitty grittyof running a tech biz when you
are not exactly a tech biz.
Fun fact, andy and I go back.
I've been lucky enough to hookTouch Stay up with some amazing
software engineers through ourcompany, echoglobaltech, which
is a sponsor of this podcast.
Stick around, this is gonna begood.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
One of them literally said I think that's the worst
idea.
I've got a PDF, I don't needanything else.
Oh, okay, but I knew that itwasn't a bad idea.
Business and startup world isfull of potential distraction.
Yeah, you know there's lots ofoh squirrel, let's go and look
over there.
You know there's plenty ofopportunity to do that.
(01:08):
It's a curiosity that I thinkevery startup business needs to
hold really close.
You have to be curious and youhave to think a little bit more
creatively, and I'm alsosomebody who will always tell
people hey, if you're not happyin what you're doing, quit
complaining, go and try and dosomething about it.
And then, guess what happened?
We got invited onto the Virginstartup accelerator, so Richard
(01:29):
Branson's Virgin.
They were offering startups tocome and join their accelerator
program, and we applied and wegot accepted and started.
The most basic decision we hadto take was do we build a native
app or do we build a web app?
Spend a little bit more time ondeveloping the network,
building the network, and then,once you've got that network, it
really pays then, because youare those just couple of degrees
(01:51):
of separation away from peoplethat really know the answer,
without some knowledge of howyou're going to price it,
without some knowledge of howyou're going to position it,
without all these other things.
You're right you are walkinginto failure if you just blindly
go because it's going to work.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Welcome to Startup Chronicles Podcast.
If you're building, or planningto build your own tech company,
this is the place where you getinspired, educated and prepared
, prepared for all thosepitfalls that are on your way,
which you will definitelyovercome, because every guest
who's on this podcast is a bigtime practitioner who's been
there and done that.
They come here to share theunique stories of their ups and
downs, providing you withavailable tips and guidance, so
(02:31):
maybe you will be the one tobuild the next unique current
company.
I'm Max, the host of thepodcast and a co-founder of a
tech recruitment company.
I'm not sitting on a bunch ofstartup secrets, but I'm also
working on a few personalprojects too.
That's the main reason why Ibrought this podcast to life to
learn from the best, alongsidewith you.
So enjoy the show and let'sdive into our next Chronicle.
Andy hi, it took us some timeto schedule this podcast and now
(02:56):
, finally, it is happening.
I'm super excited to have youhere.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I'm very well.
Thank you and sorry if I was apart of that difficulty in
scheduling because my diary wasso busy.
I think you said to me can youjoin the podcast?
About 16 months ago yeah, Ithink I can, maybe soon.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I totally understand that.
So, Andy, normally I would letthe guest introduce his company,
but since TouchStay is not thecompany that I found out about
yesterday and we know each otherfor quite a while now, if you
don't mind, I will introduceTouchStay to our listeners, and
if I get something wrong or misssomething and I probably will,
(03:35):
so I apologize in advance.
Feel free to criticize that.
Stop me and jump in, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I'll never criticize, but I might just casually
correct you.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, go for it Great , okay, so TouchStay is a
digital guidebook.
And what is a digital guidebook?
Let's imagine that you justarrived at your Airbnb or
vacation rental and then thenext morning you're ready to
explore, but then you are hitwith a barrage of questions how
does the coffee maker work?
What's the Wi-Fi password?
(04:04):
Where is the nearest restaurantor a grocery store?
And that's where TouchStaycomes to the rescue, because,
basically, the host as far as Iunderstand I might be wrong
again, but in my understanding,the host would send you the link
to the so-called lending page,which is packed with all of the
info you would need for yourstay and how I understand the
(04:27):
product.
It's not only making the lifeeasier for the guest, but also
for the host, because it helpshim to provide a top-notch
hospitality without having toanswer the same questions a
million of times.
So, yeah, andy, what do youthink?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Perfect, top of the class.
Maybe the only final part isit's not an app.
We have to get to the app storeand download stuff, or the Play
Store and download stuff orsign in to anything.
It doesn't need any of that.
It's just like a web link.
It does something clever.
Once you load the web link onyour phone, there's a little
(05:06):
prompt that allows you to add itto your home screen and then it
becomes like an app on thephone, just like your X app or
your Facebook app.
So first time I called it X.
Usually I call it Twitter.
I'm adjusting.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Well, as you said, that's what I thought it was
more like, as I said, a lendingpage.
It's not an app.
You don't have to downloadanything on your device.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
So let's imagine I am yourpotential customer and I ask you
this question why would I useyour service or your tool if I
(05:43):
could just use some commonlyknown website builders or even
notion?
It's a free tool, it's prettycustomizable why would I go for
TouchStays?
Yeah, sorry, touchstays builder.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, it's a good question.
We have a lot of people thatwill ask us why didn't?
I could just use my website,right?
I mean, the reality is thewebsite's there for people who
want to book or for people whowant to get to know, like what
you're about.
But after you've booked yourstay, or maybe you've reserved a
camper van that uses ourproduct, and once you've booked
(06:21):
your stay, the website is notthe place where you put all of
that detailed information.
Usually that's like a Word docor a Google Drive or a PDF or
something like this, becauseit's quite rich information, way
too much than you would want ona website.
So that's where it goes.
The other thing is, on awebsite they don't all allow you
(06:41):
to just seamlessly integratewith Google Places.
And what's the advantage ofthat?
Well, the host can just type inthe restaurant name, press add
and then it retrieves theinformation from Google Places,
put a nice pin on the map whichyou can choose the style of pin.
There's all these kind oflittle micro things to just make
it a little bit more fun to useand they're just a little bit
(07:03):
more versatile than a websitecan be.
So that's the main reason,that's the main difference.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Okay, great.
So I also heard from Joe.
It's another co-founder ofTouchStay.
He says this is information forour listeners.
He told me that people startedusing TouchStay's builder.
Can I say TouchStay's builder?
How should I?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, builder is a good way of describing it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Okay.
So they started usingTouchStay's builder to build
things that you didn't even have, you didn't initially even
think about, like someinstructions of you know for how
to fix the elevator or how toplan the vacation and stuff like
that.
I mean, of course that is true,but how often that is happening
(07:57):
and what are you going to dowith that?
Are you going to try to maybebuild some additional features
for those segment of yourcustomers?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes, we are, and the product is used by an Airbnb
host today.
It's used by more people thanthat, but let's think of it as
an Airbnb host.
What does an Airbnb host need?
It needs to open up the builderand just start putting all the
information that their guestsusually ask them.
So forget now Airbnb host.
(08:29):
Think about A&O, that anybodyin any industry, anywhere who
has a lot of questions that getasked the same questions over
and over again.
Now you open up a guidebook.
You create a guidebook thatanswers those questions.
So it could be the schoolprincipal who wants to send all
of the parents a prospectus sothat their kids who are coming
(08:50):
to that school know what thecurriculum is, what their
philosophy is like, whatactivities they have.
We have people doing aTouchStay guide for their school
.
Think about onboarding youremployee.
A new employee comes into thebusiness.
There's so many things that theyneed to know about that company
.
Just put it all in a guide.
You mentioned the lift one.
(09:11):
The lift one's funny.
So we had an Australiancustomer who installs commercial
elevators in big officebuildings and they have about
eight different commercialelevators, different
specifications.
They create a TouchStay guidefor each of their eight
elevators and they hand theTouchStay guide to the building
operator when they install thelift.
(09:32):
So it's like a manual for yourcar.
That's what they give you.
Here's how to use the lift,here's what's difficult, here's
who to call, here's the spec andall this kind of stuff.
We are taking that.
We didn't intend that, joe'sright.
These are people that justfound our website and decided,
(09:52):
oh, I wonder if I could do this.
And they tried it and they didit, and then, of course, we were
thrilled.
Why would we not want that tohappen?
So, to answer your question,this year we are building out
some other use cases that wewill, in fact now include on the
website more overtly and wewill mark it to those segments.
So the two we're going to gofor is the employee market, so
(10:15):
the employee onboarding and theemployee manual and the employee
training, and then also whatwe're calling standard operating
procedures.
Every business has standardoperating procedures, which are
usually kept in a word, doc orPDF or something like that.
Now you can use Touchday tocreate your SOP.
So those are the two kind ofones that we're going to start
going after.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, that makes me wonder, because that probably
make you reconsider yourmarketing approach, because the
way you put this product infront of rental owners probably
would be a different compared toyou know people who want to
make some instructions, oronboard people.
(10:54):
Have you thought about that?
Are you going to change themarketing approach or not?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, subtly, but we don't have to do anything too
complicated because the productis the key and the product can
serve any of those use casesthat we spoke about.
There's nothing in the productthat needs to change.
It's ready to go.
The question is what do we dowhen someone lands on
(11:19):
Touchdaycom and they're anAirbnb host?
We don't want them to landthere and to be scared and to
suddenly think wait, I'm in thewrong place, this is not for me.
But also we need the person whowants to install the lifts in a
building and who wants a manualfor their elevator to come and
to also understand that thisisn't for Airbnb host and it's
also for me.
(11:40):
And really, if you look at theway we position our product and
the way we talk about ourproduct, there's very little
language that's unique to anyparticular type of person.
It's much more around.
You save time answeringquestions.
You can build a guide thatexists on Word or PDF.
Really simply, you can add asmany photos as you want.
(12:00):
You can add as much text as youwant.
You can build your own headings.
You can use a map if you want.
You can put links.
There's so many things that areuniversal that we don't need to
change, to be honest, that much.
So it's much more about how weattack the marketing.
So right now, all of ourmarketing effort and our focus
goes into what we call theshort-term rental landscape,
which is the Airbnb hostlandscape, and now we're talking
(12:24):
about what we need to take someof that money and put it into
another industry vertical andit's a complicated subject and
we don't have time to discuss itnow.
But you're right, it's a partof what we're thinking and it's
definitely a part of the brainthat's shifting a little bit to
(12:44):
say what else we can do withthis product and there's a lot
of opportunity and it's reallyfun as well.
People just like creatingguides to all sorts of things
and if we can hold on to thatconcept, we don't need to
overthink too much the marketing.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah.
So can we sum this up by sayingthat it's just a little bit
different positioning approach,right, because TouchStay is
known in the travel industry.
When I hear TouchStay I thinkabout traveling, rental
properties, vacation.
But what you have to do,different is probably position
(13:20):
for a different kind ofcustomers.
Just short yes or no would workexactly.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It is a different position.
I mean, the answer yes or no isvery simplistic, but you're
right that that's the challenge.
It's like yeah, you know, whatI say max is is Business and
startup world is full ofpotential distraction.
Yeah, you know there's lots ofoh squirrel.
Let's go look over there.
You know there's.
(13:47):
There's plenty of opportunityto do that.
And the way I look at this, inthe way we've spoken about it as
a team, the, the benefit, theuniqueness we have here is we
don't need to be distracted withthe product.
Okay, we don't need to startdeveloping all these other
features.
We, we don't need to thinkabout how we present the product
to somebody.
That that's the easy bit, right, and that is often the hardest
(14:08):
bit, isn't it to take yourproduct and try and shift it to
make it work for anotherAudience?
We don't have to do that, itworks.
So now we just talk about wherewe want to focus our marketing
dollars and so far We've built areally good reputation in the,
the Airbnb world.
That that I don't want to set tomachine.
But there's, there's a, there'sa nice gentle kind of you know,
(14:30):
regular stream of business thatcomes Organically direct.
You know, we can talk aboutthat.
That's very complicated too,yeah.
So yes, that's the way I lookat it.
It's like we will havedistractions, but I think if you
can really understand, then youcan.
Just that's the learning, isn'tit?
It's like what how do yousimplify what you do so that an
idea can come to fury fruitionwithout completely ruining your
(14:53):
business by taking it off insome other path?
I Gave you more than yes or no,sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, but that's, that's good to hear.
So.
But also we can say thatdistraction is not always a bad
thing, right?
Because sometimes it could beblessing in disguise If you, if
you were not distracted, maybe,maybe that's a very good, you
know, pivoting opportunity orjust another Great potential
feature opportunity that youwould discover when you are
(15:22):
distracted.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I Totally agree.
It's a curiosity that I thinkevery startup business needs to
hold really close.
You have to be curious and youhave to think a little bit more
creatively and and and.
In doing that, there comes therisk of the distraction, and
that's where you have to bereally self-aware, you know, and
you have to, you have to justand it's it's hard to think,
(15:45):
like you know, it's hard tothink about how you approach
that challenge, but the, the,the creativity, should always be
there.
The creativity generates ideasas well.
And the challenges then to makeideas happen, like you can All
two.
We used to be really bad.
We used to talk about ideasevery five minutes and then we
just have like a hundred ideas.
Then we'd be like, wow, thatwas so energizing.
Okay, but but what, what likewhat?
(16:07):
So what, what's next?
So we're not like that anymore.
We do still have ideation, butwhat we really want to do is
think about when we come up withan idea, so what, why?
What are we gonna do about it?
How are we gonna do it?
You know, that's the key.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah.
So talking of ideas, thatreally leads me to my next
question.
I have to tell you something,andy.
I remember vividly the firsttime I was introduced to you
guys.
I checked your website and Iwas impressed by how it was such
a simple, yet creative andpromising idea for a startup.
But at the same time I had kindof like Mixed feelings because
at the first glance it seemedlike it was too simple to be a
(16:41):
valid startup idea.
You know what I mean.
As I said before, first thingthat comes to my mind, there are
some other alternatives.
You already explained that wedon't have to go there, but
still, I just want to go back tothat time when the idea for
touch stay was born.
Tell me a little bit more aboutit.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Who, where and why hmm, I always Stayed in what we
call vacation rentals holidayevery me, it's what we call an
Airbnb.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
now, I always stayed in those.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
My parents used to take me to them all the time,
and so then, when I startedhaving kids, you know you don't
want to pay a small hotel room,you want a bit more space, and
you then sometimes it's cheapernot so much anymore, is probably
more close to a hotel, but soso I started taking my kids To
stay in vacation rentals, andthen I realized every time I
(17:31):
went that that I didn't knowanything about the area, and so
I would call up the host and I'dbe like I'm bringing my kids,
we want to know where to get thebest pizza.
And then, like, just like this,the host says, oh, you've got
to try this place, it's the bestplace on the island.
(17:51):
Okay, so then next time my kidsare really looking for ice
cream, but I don't want to takethem to.
Like the, the, the traditionalhigh street brand I want to take
them to.
Is that a really good ice cream?
Oh, yeah, yeah, you have totake them here.
And so gradually, all thesethings kept happening and and
then you go into the home andthen, and then you pick up, you
pick up in the home and you pickup this thing, like this binder
, and you turn and like, yeah,there's, page three is dropping
(18:14):
out and page six has a coffeestain on it and it's like sick.
You know, the recommendationsare three years out of date, so
it was a real shame.
So we just decided there has tobe a better way digital version
.
And to your point aboutsimplicity, excuse me, I had so
many of my, my friends who Itell them about this, they, they
would, they would be likethat's terrible idea, that's
(18:35):
just such a bad idea.
And I remember asking a coupleof friends who've got holiday
homes and One of them literallysaid I think it's the worst idea
.
I've got a PDF, I don't needanything else.
Okay, but I knew that it wasn'ta bad idea, I knew it was a
good idea.
And it's not only about, oh,I've got a PDF, but it's okay.
(18:59):
So, how, how easy it is toupdate that PDF.
Do you print that PDF?
Yeah, I printed.
Oh, okay, what happens to pagethree when you need to change it
?
I, I have to print out pagethree and then I have to drive
to my, to my villa, and thentake out the binder and unclip
it and put that, you know.
So it's not.
It's not like.
Simplicity is is also aboutMaking it easy for someone.
(19:24):
So simplicity often is seen asa oh, that's negative, because
that's such a simple product.
But simplicity is what we allwant and I'm glad you said
simple at the start.
I used to apologize in theearly days for having a simple
product and now it's our massivestrength.
You know, people are so busy.
We're like juggling many balls,spinning plates, busy lives but
(19:44):
we have so many technologyproducts available, don't we?
It's just bewildering how manytechnology products they are,
how many of them are really easyto use straight away.
And and that's the differencehere this is not.
This is not a tool where itrequires you to do you know so
many complex processes, or plugin this or publish this or no
code, or it's just not.
(20:05):
It's like if you can use a worddoc, you can use touch thing.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Okay.
So that is a really interestingstory.
But still, you got an idea,then you introduced it to, you
pitch that idea to your friends.
Then they said that's aterrible idea.
You explain them why it is nota terrible idea.
Because you cannot, you know,update PDF or print it.
Why did you feel so confidentthat it, the opportunity, is
(20:31):
worth the opportunity cost?
Because I I assume I might bewrong, but at that time you did
not have any Competitors, right,and that could be a pretty good
red flag.
If you don't have competition,what that means.
That means that there is nodemand for this right,
potentially.
So how did you approach theidea validation?
(20:52):
How?
What was the triggers or themain indicators for you that?
Yeah, I want to try thatbecause I know that you had
full-time job we will talk aboutthat a little bit later but
tell me, how did you reallyvalidate that idea that you had
green light to go full-time?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
hmm, that that let's talk about that job in a little
bit.
That that's interesting Becausethat's a really important part
of our story which is differentfrom what a lot of people have.
We had this idea and peoplesaid it was terrible, but that
didn't matter, because it didn'tstop us developing it.
Why?
Because we had the security offull-time, paid employment in
(21:27):
good jobs somewhere else and itbecame a hobby really for a
while.
So eventually, to your question, like, what made you what?
What made you then decide, okay, now I can launch it and how,
how do I launch it?
And and why do you ignore theperson that says?
It's simple because Really, westarted that four years after we
founded the business.
For four years we were justworking and earning nice money
(21:49):
and we didn't want to jump intothis, this idea.
We let this thing just bubbleaway and I think we probably had
one or two hundred customers inthat time and it was really
useful, very useful, becausethose customers can tell us you
know things about the product,the use case and and the feature
set and the ease of use of theproduct, and that really helped
because when we came to launchit, we, we, we knew a little bit
(22:14):
more about our customer.
We knew a little bit more aboutwhat they want and we had that
luxury to wait those many yearsto gain that learning.
But also in those many yearsthen people started to realize
that if they wanted toprofessionalize their operations
so running an Airbnb used to belike a side gig.
Now people are doing it forreal.
It's a business they reallywant to make it, you know, very,
(22:35):
very good for the guest.
You know those days where youused to turn up to a holiday
villa and and there would be nosharp knife or you know the the
cups would be broken or whatever.
That doesn't.
That still happen sometimes,but in the good places that
doesn't happen anymore.
So the level of professionalismhas gone up and that meant that
people place a greater value onwhat their guests receive in
(22:57):
terms of service.
And that's really where we sawthe opportunity in like 2018,
2019, to really launch into itand we took a little bit of seed
capital tiny amount from ourcustomers which allows to do
some marketing, allowed us toemploy one another person,
mm-hmm and and to build on this.
This kind of shift we could seehappening in terms of
(23:18):
professionalism and for us youknow I'm not going to lie.
Of course, there was a lot ofluck involved too, and and some
of the luck I don't want to callit luck.
It's tricky because COVIDhappened and it was terrible for
so many people and it was forus.
For many months.
We had no business, but we werehealthy and we were able,
(23:41):
because we had resiliency withcash, to be able to sustain the
development team that workedwith us, for example.
But when that, when COVIDhappened and people started
opening up their airbnbs againand they were allowed to host
guests, guess what they allwanted?
A digital product to be able tocommunicate with their guests
in a more remote way.
And so that element of fortunein a way for us that we had a
(24:05):
product positioned at the righttime Did, did help us to grow.
So I don't know if thatanswered your question, but that
was like a quick leap betweenfounding the business and, you
know, the last few years.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Okay, so Before touch stay you worked at if I'm not
mistaking I checked yourLinkedIn profile you worked as a
chief financial officer atGucci and then Victoria back him
.
That sounds like a prettystable Job.
That would make you to Considervery, very well whether you
really want to quit the job andDo what what you are doing,
(24:41):
full-time.
So, because that was probablyyour safety net also that helped
, you know, to get some tractionwith touch stay, as you said,
you know because, I'm sure that,even though you had a few
hundred customers, that probablyBarely covered some of your
expenses that you had, you know.
Tell me when did you feel thatyou really gained that traction
(25:03):
and how much time did it takeBetween the time you started
working on it on touch stays astartup and between the time you
quit your full-time job?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
You're right.
Those businesses that I didwork in those fashion businesses
, those names you mentioned werea huge amount of fun and they
were extremely challenging forgrowth potential and for
learning.
Huge amount of fun.
Working with creative people asa finance person is probably
(25:38):
just about the most exciting andalso the hardest thing you can
do, because the creative peopleshow you that energy which so
often as a finance team youdon't see.
But also those creative peopleare creative people.
They bring their challenges.
They want to spend money.
They've got ideas.
You know so.
Tools are very challenging.
So a fantastic experience and Iwould say even predating that
my experience is even before.
(25:59):
Fashion were foundational for menow in the startup world.
So now I can relate to people,I can talk to people, I can
understand people.
I know finance, I know goodcash flow discipline, margin
discipline.
I understand the creativitythat goes into building a
product, but also the routinethat goes into building a
product.
Every business, no matter howcreative, has a certain number
of processes you have to followto make a product happen.
(26:20):
So all of that was foundational, but all of that also was very
lucrative.
So I was earning a lot of nicemoney.
So that's what I said in thosefirst four years I didn't have
to worry too much about touchday, whether it succeeded or not
, because it wasn't my food, youknow, it wasn't my lifeline.
So I I just let it kind of keepgoing.
But I had, I had built I'vebeen half money for me in 2000
(26:44):
and at the end of 2017.
So, going into 2018 to say,okay, I'm going to stop now
working in fashion and I'm goingto pursue touch there because
now is the right time.
But also I knew at that time inmy life that I needed a
different challenge.
And I'm also somebody who willalways tell people hey, if
(27:04):
you're not happy in what you'redoing, quit complaining, go and
try and do something about it.
And there's always so manyexcuses.
But it's not that easy, I'd youknow.
Blah, blah, blah.
Okay, we all make excuses.
If you have the guts and theconviction to do something else,
then you go do it.
And that's what I did.
So I held myself to that samebar.
So I did that in 2018.
And I and I went for a long timewithout a salary, like a long
(27:27):
time and but, but I was able todo that.
That's not a poor me story,it's not.
You know it's like I'm notgoing to pretend or make up this
lovely startup story of how Ilike, just boost up the years
and I had the luxury of beingable to lean on savings I'd made
from my previous career, so itdidn't matter that 200 customers
(27:49):
were paying you know peanutsrelative to the costs.
And then guess what happened?
We got invited onto the, to theVirgin startup accelerator.
So Richard Branson's Virginthey were.
They were offering startups tocome and join their accelerator
program and we applied and wegot accepted and we joined that
program.
That allowed us to raise alittle bit of capital.
(28:09):
It also took us through therigor of whether or not our
product was really commerciallyviable, which was very useful to
do, and out of that reallyspawned the rest of the touch
day story.
You know we raised enoughcapital for us to start taking a
bit of salary still nothingmuch it.
We raised enough to be able totake on some new people into the
team.
You know we iteratively builtand because of my financial
(28:30):
discipline I could think abouthow we could do that sustainably
and build a business.
And the nice thing about SASand the SAS model is provided
you don't have a horrible churn,which we don't.
There's a compounding effect.
So every year you retain mostof the business that you sold
last year, you bring it intothis year and now you add to it.
So it's very, very good fromthe ability to financially plan
(28:51):
when you have a low churnbusiness like we do.
And yeah, I forgot where yourquestion was.
Max, you can tell I liketalking.
Did I answer it?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
No, it's really interesting to listen to your
story and I have a questionabout that startup accelerator
how difficult was to be acceptedwhen you applied?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
We were one of eight businesses that got accepted
onto it and I heard that therewere there were tons of
applications, and so I mean wegot accepted because we had we
had to do a like, we had to sendin a reason why there was a
long, very, very, very fullapplication and because we'd
(29:37):
already proved a certainviability of our product and
because probably our backgroundstoo we looked like you know
people who you know maybe werewere more positioned to make it
a success because we hadexperience already, I don't know
.
Then we had some interviewprocesses and when we met the
people and then we eventuallygot onto it, so it wasn't, it
wasn't a difficult process.
(29:58):
There wasn't, you know, a lotof.
We didn't have to go off siteand be grilled by a panel or
anything like this.
It was.
It was a relatively easyprocess and and yeah, we went on
, it was like an eight week,maybe a 10 week program, I think
, and the whole point of it wasto build towards doing a
crowdfund and we quicklyrealized we didn't want to
crowdfund because we're notreally a B to C, you know.
(30:20):
so we're not.
We had people on our cohort whowere selling direct to a
consumer and then you cancrowdfund.
It's an easier connection.
So we we didn't, but we did goto the pitch evening.
So at the end of theaccelerator you go and pitch to
a room full of potentialinvestors.
There are investors who justlike, put a bit of money in this
, and bigger ones too, and thatwas a really good experience to
(30:43):
go through, like the trainingand the rigor that they gave us
about how to, you know, do our10 second pitch and then you
know how to then craft apresentation that was
interesting and engaging forpeople and how to position
yourself so that it lookedattractive from an investor
perspective.
All of that stuff was reallygood, good stuff to do.
So I was really fortunate.
(31:05):
We were really fortunate to getthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
So that partially answered my next question,
because I was thinking, whengetting things off the ground
with TouchStay, I'm sure thatthere were lots of things that
you had already professionalexperience with, but also there
are probably even more thingsthat you had no idea about,
right Even when we talk aboutbuilding a new company,
technical things and so on.
So what practical skills orknowledge you were lacking at
(31:33):
the beginning of your journeywith TouchStay that you gained
as you got into drawing?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I'd never worked in a technology company, I'd have
zero development experience, andso that part of the startup
journey was completely alien tome.
But that's where Joe is aperfect foil.
So it's perfect kind ofco-founder because, although he
doesn't develop, he's veryfamiliar with the more technical
(32:00):
side of things.
And, again, he hasn't worked ina tech business but he has
overseen IT projects and ITtransitions and he understands
how to manage a team oftechnical people and the
different stakeholders involvedin that, both commercially and
operationally and technically.
So the worry of not havingtechnical experience didn't
(32:23):
bother us and in some ways itwas good, because I think if I
was a developer or if I knew thetech world in a lot of depth, I
might kind of put some barriersin my own way.
I can't do that because of this.
Sometimes it's better that youdon't know what you don't know,
because you just have thefreedom, you go and do it and
you make the mistakes, and Ithink that was helpful.
(32:44):
We also, of course, in the earlydays had to really struggle
with knowing whether or not thedevelopment partner that we
wanted to use was really good ornot, because we had no
experience.
Somebody could have just beengiving some load of BS and we
wouldn't really have known itand we worked with the first
(33:06):
iteration of the product was adeveloper in New Mexico,
albuquerque, and they built avery decent first product, but
the developer, who kneweverything about our product,
walked out the door one day andthey left and we didn't have
anyone that could do it.
There was no resiliency in theagency we used, so that was a
scary time, like transitioningthat to somewhere else.
(33:28):
So we moved it to a UK agencywho introduced us eventually to
Echo, echo Global, and Echo'steam of developers have been
with us since well, I forget thefirst developer like 2018,
maybe, probably, yeah, and thatwas the transition and so, yeah,
the unknown tech landscape andthe development environment was
(33:51):
kind of scary, and I would saywe've made some mistakes along
the way too, because there arecertain things that even Joe
doesn't know because he's neverbeen so close to the development
world A lot of architecturestaff, a lot of, maybe, best
practice for doing certainthings which, if we had 10 or 15
years of tech experience, we'dknow instantly what the answer
was.
We stumbled across some of thoseother things, but there are
(34:11):
lots of other things that wewere very good at that.
We were very, you know, couldeat.
That were natural to us, thatwe had experience of that.
Maybe some other startups don'thave that experience.
So it's a balance, isn't it?
With startups, you don't knoweverything, but you have to be
resilient and try and figure itout and find the right people
who do which, thankfully, withsome missteps along the way, we
did eventually do.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
That's great.
You see, you also answered myanother question that I was
planning to ask you about howshould one?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
no, that's great, that's actually amazing.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
That means we are on the same page.
So my next question wasactually how should one approach
a building a tech companywithout having much technical
background?
And based on what you just said, I think that the best way is
to have a partner who is moretechnical than you right, so you
should be strong in oneparticular area.
(35:00):
In your case, it's finance,right and planning and then you
have Joe who is more, has moreproject management experience.
He knows more abouttechnologies, tech stacks,
framework and all those kind ofthings.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Correct.
Yeah, but neither of us knew adeveloper, neither of us knew a
good developer, and that was ourfirst challenge was how to find
that.
And even the first one wepicked was not the one we ended
up with.
And that's where I think thatin an ideal world, with
hindsight, we would have spentsix months finding the right
(35:38):
person and asking our networkand we both have big networks
and somebody would have said tous don't forget doing that, this
is who you should go and use,and so that's natural.
That's just a part that youhave to accept in the startup
world, that there's no preciseformula.
You have to figure stuff out.
But I would say also, where youdon't have expertise, it's not
(36:06):
a reason not to do something,and I think the lack of
expertise you actually said itquite nicely it's the lack of
expertise is, in a way, forcesyou to find the people who do
have that expertise, and thenyou have a better business
because it's not all reliant onyou.
You're finding someone else whocan do that with you.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I see.
So, andy, I'm not sure whetheryou are the right person to ask
this question.
Could you please walk methrough the process of how you
selected the text stack that youare using for your product?
What were the key criteria thatguided your decision and,
ultimately, what text stack didyou settle on for it?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I'd say You're definitely asking the wrong
question, max, where we need tocall Joe up right now and say
Jack, you're asking thisquestion.
I'll give you the most basicone, though.
When we first started, the mostbasic decision we had to take
was do we build a native app ordo we build a web app?
And that I understood, becauseI understood what it meant to go
(37:11):
to the app store or the playstore and I understood what it
meant to go to the website, andwe took a lot of time trying to
decide that.
But you know what?
We ended up picking the rightpath, not because, let's say, by
accident, we decided to go fora web app.
Why did we go for a web app?
(37:31):
Because we thought thatdeveloping an app for the app
store or the play store wouldjust be a bit more technical and
might also require us to takelonger to make releases.
I have no idea whether that'sthe case or not anymore, but I
think it used to be, and so wedecided to go with the web app,
and we also had in mind, I'msure and I could definitely talk
(37:53):
myself into this now and say,oh yes, we had the user in mind
and we knew it would be mucheasier for them to go to a web
app and all of these greatthings that we realized today.
But that was the first decision.
Once we took that decision to goto a web app, the next decision
was who to build it and,frankly, some of the people we
asked were just so expensivethat we just said no, we can't
use them.
So eventually we ended up inthe area of someone could build
(38:15):
a web app who was recommended tous.
So one of the more expensivebuilders I said to him is so
expensive and he said what areyou trying to build?
And I said you can't do it forthat cheap money.
I said but that's it, that'sall we've got.
We can't do it for anythingmore.
And he said well, actually I'vejust come across this new
company that started in NewMexico and Albuquerque and
they're more of a web agency,but they've got a development
(38:37):
arm now and I think it's thingsabout them and that was it.
That's what introduced us.
But after that, why did wedecide to do it in Python and
with Django and View and likeall these names to me are just
development names?
I don't know why View is betterthan a different front end.
I know it's a front end, but Idon't know why.
(38:59):
That is Joe's area.
Definitely.
I would say that we relied onexperts, though, too.
The UK agency we use were quiteimportant for that, and then,
of course, echo definitely werevery influential in that too,
and the Echo team was great,because we didn't have just
developers but we also hadaccess to the other people in
the development in the Echo teamwho could guide us through
(39:23):
finding the right person withthe right skills, and that was
really important to us, and Ithink without that, we would
have definitely stumbled for alot longer with our development
challenge.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Great.
So can we take a lesson fromwhat you just said and say that
whatever area you are, not youdon't have enough confidence in
you.
Just go and find somebody whohas more confidence, more
experience, and ask them forhelp.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah for sure.
And it doesn't need to be thatthat person needs to be in your
team.
That person can just be someonewho is in your network, who
knows somebody we're not.
You know what's the number ofdegrees of separation from
everyone in the world?
Like seven degrees or something.
I cover what it is.
So certainly in your networkyou could find within a couple
of steps some real experts inthat field, and I think too many
(40:12):
people don't do that.
Too many people still think Icould figure this out by myself,
or you know it's.
I would say with hindsight,it's the wrongs, the wrong path.
Spend a little bit more time ondeveloping the network,
building the network, and then,once you've got that network, it
really pays then, because youare those just a couple of
degrees of separation away frompeople that really know the
answer.
You know like, oh, should I doXYZ in my development?
(40:36):
Okay, this person over herewho's in my network just tells
me the answer in five minutes,and then I've saved myself a
whole bunch of pain.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
That's right.
So there is.
There is another.
Well, actually we have alreadytouched a little bit on idea
validation, but I would like totalk a little bit more about
that.
So, given that you have allthat experience, that you have
experience of successes, maybe,maybe some failures as well,
overcoming challenges, you musthave already developed some kind
(41:04):
of framework for validating newideas.
I understand that you know itis a very extensive and complex
topic, but if you had to startall over again with a brand new
idea for SAS product, or maybewhen you have some idea for a
new feature, what would be yourfirst steps to validate the idea
?
How do you decide whether theopportunity cost is worth a shot
(41:28):
?
Speaker 2 (41:30):
We probably have a different perspective and a
unique position versus somebodywho's just starting.
I think the answer to thequestion would be different
depending on the stage you're at.
Where we are.
We have, you know, quite a niceuser base now, and so one of
the things we did do last yearwas to ask that user base.
You know, here's a list ofthings that we think are
(41:50):
important to develop.
Next, what do you think Like?
Go and vote on them.
And the user base gave us aload of votes and then we
prioritized some of those thingsto develop those things.
And then, of course, there areother product features that we
already know are definitelygoing to benefit, because we've
been on customer calls and we'veheard some of their pains and
(42:11):
we've seen that competitors arenot doing that.
So there's a commercialopportunity too, and those we
wouldn't necessarily ask ouraudience to validate.
We just know that they wouldlike them.
Whereas if I was just startingout with a brand new product
with no user base and I wantedto understand how to validate my
idea, I don't think there's aperfect answer.
(42:32):
I think it comes down a littlebit to conviction.
You know, had I had, I soimagine, when I first started
this and my validation was toask all of those people who told
me I was drunk and that it wasa stupid idea and I would have
never, I would never have doneit, you know.
So there's also like there hasto be some conviction, some gut
feel to know that.
You know.
There's has to be like a Idon't want to call it visionary,
(42:54):
that's very grand, but you cansee it.
You can see a potential in aproduct that other people can't
see it.
And it doesn't mean that youknow how to do it and to develop
it.
You need to have other peopleto help you see that, that bring
that idea into fruition andinto light.
But I think in early stages youdo, I mean, but possibly you
(43:14):
need to be, you need to have alittle bit more objectivity.
I may be simplifying it, so Idid already.
I did already know the industrybecause I'd stayed as a guest,
and that's fundamental to ourproduct is we have to experience
it, we have to know what theproduct use cases.
I knew that, I already knewthat and my many experiences
showed me that.
And then I mentioned earlierabout the industry
professionalizing.
(43:34):
So we also knew that there wasa degree of learning that the
industry had towards this kindof product, and so it's not
purely just what's in my gut,let's go do it.
You know that's, that's alsononsense, but there has to be
that that carries you through,together with those other things
that you either know throughhaving experienced a gap in the
(43:54):
market, or, if you're luckyenough, perhaps you've, you've,
you've, you've already, you knowgot a whole bunch of testing.
That's been done and you know.
But that's not the case formany startups.
You're starting with someonebrand new.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Exactly so.
When you said that you musthave conviction and God feeling,
what I hear is biased opinion,to be honest, because when you
really like something, you don'twant to hear what you don't
want to hear, you know.
You only want to hear thoseopinion of other people that
would confirm idea that you'repassionate about.
And when you said that you musthave some fundamental
(44:33):
experience in that area, I thinkthat is very important to have
because if you are jumping insome niche or area where you
know it seems pretty to you butyou have zero experience, I
think that might be veryfrustrating over time.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean you're right to check meon this point, because we've
got like an hour in the podcastand really this is.
This is the kind of thing thatwe could talk a lot more about,
because it is really important.
You know, the gut conviction isimportant.
Like you need to.
You need, as a, as a, as aleader and a founder, to know
(45:12):
that what you're doing has thepotential to work.
Otherwise, like well, it's justnever going to work.
So that has to come first.
Like you have to really havethat desire and that energy, but
you also really have to havethe wisdom and I have a lot of
great hearing and, but I wasn'talways this great, and so I did
start, not necessarily with alot of wisdom, but the wisdom
that I have now has has clearlyshown me that the courage and
(45:36):
the conviction and the gutfeeling, without Also some
knowledge of the market, withoutsome knowledge of how you're
going to price it, without someknowledge of how you're going to
position it, without all theseother things, you're right, you
are walking into failure if youjust blindly go because it's
going to work, you're right.
(46:00):
But I do think that that has tocome first.
Like you do need to have thedrive and the ambition, because
there are going to be so manytimes where it's really hard and
you feel like giving up, or youface a challenge or someone
shouts at you or the websitegoes down or there's all of
these things where you reallyneed to feel that this is worth
(46:23):
doing, to have that resiliencyto continue going.
So it's a real balance, max.
But I would love I could talkall day about this, because I
think it really is fundamentalto understanding what makes a
startup succeed.
It's not any one of thosethings, but it does start with
energy and conviction and avision.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, you see, I actually have so many more
questions that I was planning toask because I deviated from my
original plan and I cannot notask about something that I hear
you're talking.
So I've asked a lot ofquestions that I was not
planning to and I left asidesome of the questions that I was
(47:05):
planning to ask.
But anyway, because, as yousaid, we do have a limited time
for this podcast Reflecting backto your early days, say 10
years ago, 2014, when everythingwas just starting, because I
remember I checked your Ibelieve it was TouchState's
Instagram profile you with thecake with candles.
(47:27):
It said the first double digitbirthday of TouchState.
Right, let's go back to thattime, 10 years ago.
If someone had predicted thatby 2024, you'd be at this point
in your journey where you areright now.
Would that have matched yourexpectations?
Yeah, let's just put it likewould that have matched your
(47:50):
expectations?
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yes, yeah, hands down .
When you first start a business, you imagine that it could be
successful.
You could, at a most basiclevel, that you could pay
yourself a salary.
That's the most basic thing,but you don't know whether
(48:12):
you're going to succeed on thatjourney.
And then the next step is can Ipay myself a salary and can I
make my life easier and a morescalable product by then having
other people in the team who Ipay myself a salary?
And then, after all of that, isthere still some profit in the
business after you've done allthat?
That allows you to take adecision to reinvest it into
(48:34):
further growth or to startthinking about taking cash out
of the business.
And these are things that youonly dream about having the
luxury of having to decide inthe years.
So, absolutely back then, forme the barometer was can I pay
myself and Joe, can we togetherhave a business that pays
(48:56):
ourselves to exist and to live?
That's the basic doingsomething that is our own, not
having another boss and nothaving to travel into London
every day.
We were remote work from thestart.
It's not a new thing for us.
So all of those things are bigticks in the boxes, but there
(49:18):
were never things that Iimagined that would definitively
happen.
We just didn't know.
So we just went year to year toyear to year and now sitting
here today and, if I looked backto where we started, it's been
a long journey to get here,because 10 years is a long time,
but don't forget, we had moreor less five or six of those
years where we were doing ourcorporate job.
(49:40):
So I am really really proud andreally happy of what we've
built, and it definitely tickswhere I would have expected it,
more than what I expected it tobe.
And the question is now whatelse could it become?
And that's what keeps you going, that's the fuel for continuing
(50:00):
to build.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Exactly.
I'm really glad to hear thatyou are fulfilled with what you
have now, and I'm sure thatyou're very motivated to keep
growing.
And so, looking at the currentlandscape, what are some of the
most ambitious goals thatTouchStay is aiming to achieve
in the near future?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Well, we touched on it earlier, taking the product
into a completely different setof verticals, and it's
interesting because now I talkto people about that and they go
.
That's a terrible idea.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
It's almost like it was, you know.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
But this comes back now to a little bit about okay,
let's break it down, which partsof this are risky?
Which parts of this are notrisky?
The product not risky becauseit works in any vertical.
The marketing probably risky.
What type of marketing?
You break it down and you thinka bit more methodically about
it and you can address each ofthose risks.
So we have a team now who havevery, very, very smart brains
(50:54):
and where I maybe can't seesomething, someone else on the
team can see something and wefind a solution to wear around
it.
And also there's a verytactical, strategic way you
approach this.
You don't just suddenly go boom, that's what we're going to do.
You know, you build into it.
There's a lot of nuance thatgoes into this.
So I would say that's the nextbig opportunity for us and, yeah
(51:18):
, I'm excited to see where itgoes.
And I also want to say, max,that I also don't want anybody
listening to think that this wasjust like the dream story.
It just all happened and it wasall beautiful, and no, like it
was very stressful.
You know, when you quit yourjob and eventually the money
does run out, okay, like Ididn't have millions of wealth
that I'd accumulated.
At a certain point you startrunning into like real, can I
(51:41):
pay my mortgage?
You know all this kind of stuffand it's stressful when it's
your business.
And then you look and you lookoutside in the market and you're
wondering what's going tohappen in the market.
You know what macro factors,other companies you know and it
that it's like it's not easy,like it's not.
This has been a really, really,really hard but a very
rewarding and a very satisfyingjourney.
(52:05):
But but you know let's be eyesopen that it's not.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, maybe it would havesounded like a dream story if
you started this six months ago,you know, and now you are where
you are, but it's been 10 yearsof ups and downs, different
kind of challenges that youovercome, so of course I don't
think that your your storysounds pretty interesting, but
(52:32):
definitely not something that isthat seems to be very easy, you
know, to do.
Okay, so for our listeners whomaybe own some rental properties
and are interested in tryingtouch stays product, what's the
simplest way or the best way forthem to start using your
product or try?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
touch daycom.
Click the free trial button,have two weeks free trial.
Poke around, see what's there.
We have a really extensive setof help articles, videos, this
kind of thing.
The product is super simple.
Like I said, I think, earlierin the call, if you can use a
word doc, that's what touch dayis.
You just have differentsections where you have a text
editor.
(53:11):
You write the stuff, add videos, add photos, whatever you need,
save, move on to the next one.
It's not really that difficultand the two week free trial is
definitely enough time for youto see whether or not it's
something that you can do.
Because that's the firstchallenge Can I do this?
Can I do the software?
Is it something that I can do?
And then I know a lot ofcustomers who get a real kick
(53:35):
out of using it because it'ssatisfying.
Like, when you can do somethinglike this, it's.
You think it's difficult andthen you realize it's really
easy and then at the end youhave your own thing, you have
your own guide, it's yours andso, yeah, that's the best way,
like that two week free trial.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Great, so just go to touchstaycom and the any final
advice.
To sum this up, one, twosentences for everyone who's
just at the starting line ofbuilding their tech companies.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I mean, I think probably my key bit of advice is
not to obsess over the details.
And the challenge is to thatkind of more vision and that
conviction and find that energythat you know you can do it,
(54:26):
like there's this kind of innerconfidence that we all have
somewhere.
Tap into that and then look forthe different solutions to some
of the problems you come upagainst.
But it's really that startingpoint, like you have to have
that belief that what you'reabout to start is going to work,
because if you don't have thatand you start, you're going to
quickly run out of energy andnot and life's too short Do you
(54:50):
want to waste X number of months, years, when you don't really
feel it?
No, move on, do something else.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
It is.
It is short and, yeah, that's areally great advice.
Thank you, andy, and I want tothank you again for coming.
I know it wasn't easy for youto find time and appreciate you
did.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Thank you for having me.
I've enjoyed it.
It's good time to sit andreflect on things.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
Thank you.
Thank you Awesome, andy.
You have a great day and takecare you too.
Bye.
Thanks for listening everyoneand if you like this podcast,
make sure to follow on whateverplatform you're using to get
your podcasts.
Also, if you could leave areview, that would be highly
highly appreciated.
Thanks, and I'll see you in thenext episodes.
Take care.
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