Melissa Bennett-Heinz and The Courage to Choose Yourself

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Melissa Bennett-Heinz shares how Gestalt psychotherapy transformed her life after traditional therapy left her stuck, guiding us through a powerful conversation about women's struggle to prioritize themselves.

• Discussing the courage it takes for women to reschedule commitments and make space for themselves
• Exploring how work burnout affects mental health and family dynamics 
• Understanding Gestalt therapy as an embodied, relational approach focusing on present moment awareness
• Recognizing anxiety in the body as a guide rather than letting it control decisions
• Learning that small, consistent changes are more effective than attempting dramatic overhauls
• Breaking free from societal conditioning that rewards women for self-sacrifice
• Taking responsibility for ourselves while recognizing we're not meant to do everything alone
• Understanding that a healthy family requires parents to nurture their relationship first

Remember that your body will never lie to you - reconnecting with your physical sensations provides the guidance you need to make choices that truly support your wellbeing.

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https://www.melissabennettheinz.com/ 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everybody, this is Steel Roses podcast.
This podcast was created forwomen, by women, to elevate
women's voices.
I am very excited to introduceall of you today to our guest.
We have with us Melissa BennettHines Now.
Melissa was originally trainedas a classical oboist at the
Manhattan School of Music.
Her path shifted after a seriesof profound personal losses.

(00:25):
She discovered traditionaltherapy, but she was beginning
to feel stuck over time, whichled her to discover Gestalt
psychotherapy, which is atransformative approach that
helped her reconnect withherself and others.
She actually later earned herMSW from Columbia University and
completed clinical training atGestalt Associates for

(00:47):
Psychotherapy.
Today, she helps clients healthrough a presence-centered,
relational and experientialapproach that fosters deep
self-awareness and connection.
Melissa, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Good to be here, so glad to be finally able to sit
down with you.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
I know, I know my poor schedule.
I feel so bad and honestly, Iactually have to give a big
shout out to like all of theguests, including yourself,
because everyone has been verygracious with me having to shift
things about, so I'm verygrateful that you were able to
record with me today.
Yeah, and I really love that.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
you asked for what you needed and you were.
You allowed yourself to take upspace and say you know what?
This doesn't work for me nowand I want to reschedule, like I
think that that takes a lot ofcourage to be able to do that
for many people, but for women,you know this thing came up.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
I you know what.
Let me elaborate on that forthe audience.
So what ended up happening wasMelissa and I were scheduled and
I actually had a few meetingsscheduled for the podcast that
all were on Mother's Day.
And you know, at the time ofeverything being scheduled, I I
didn't, I don't really, I didn'treally think of it, I didn't
think of it the holiday, and sowhat I had to do is I had to

(02:12):
message everybody and Melissa, Iactually do want to share with
you.
It was a struggle for me to dothat.
It was very hard for me to sayI actually can't meet on
Mother's Day.
It was and, and you know, youthink like no, like Jen, like
that's your day, you want to bewith your family, like they're
obviously doing something foryou.
It was hard to raise my handand say I need to give myself

(02:34):
some grace here.
I need space because I want tobe able to celebrate with my
family.
And this is something that Iwould have never done a couple
years ago.
I would have, I would have toldmy family I have to do these
recordings and you know, we'lljust, we'll just deal with it
and I would have never madespace.
So, honestly, I didn't eventhink of it until you said, oh,

(02:57):
good for you for doing thatuntil so.
It's taken me some time to beable to do that.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
You have expanded in the world, yeah, Um so.
Melissa, though, tellingeverybody I have to, I'm going
to interrupt you for a minute.
Yeah, go in this organicconversation we're going to have
.
I'm going to interrupt youright, cause you already let me
know that I'm going to need todo that on your podcast.
That's true, on your podcast.
But what is also veryentertaining to share about this

(03:26):
story is we have had toreschedule three times, and it's
not just Jenny's schedule, itwas Melissa.
Forgot, literally just blockedit out of my mind that we had an
appointment, and I just did aflat no-show and, um, yeah,

(03:52):
that's that brings up shame andembarrassment and fear.
You know, oh my gosh, but herewe are, like you know which is
actually a little bit funnyCause.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Did you see?
You know, look at that Like itwas.
It really, of course, standsout to me, cause I'm the one who
made that error, but youcompletely forgot.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
That makes me think of, like I wonder how much other
stuff we we don't rememberabout other people, but we think
that what we do might have atremendous impact on somebody
when, oh, you shouldn't evenremember it.
Great.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
That's a really good point.
That's a.
That's an excellent point.
How much, how much?
How many things do we beatourselves up about as women,
when the other person it's fine,it's okay.
Not that it doesn't matter, butit's okay, I'm okay with this.
It's not a big deal, it's alittle crazy, yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
And even better is the Mother's Day reschedule.
It worked perfectly because Ineeded some time off.
Like I got an injury when I wasworking out and I wasn't
feeling good, and I got anotherinjury on the property working
outside and I was like kind oflike a two week stretch of like

(05:22):
a lot of working, doing more.
During this two week stretchworking weekends I went to a
workshop and it was just like,oh, I really just I need to take
a break.
I needed a couple of days justto lay low and recharge and not
move too much and try to likeheal my injuries, and it was

(05:44):
perfect timing.
So what you don't know is likethat it actually helped me.
Not only was it no big deal,but it actually was something I
needed and you didn't even knowthe time.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
You know, I've had, I've had other experiences like
that with this podcast, whereguests have like on my side, I'm
like, oh, you know, and I'mlooking at my phone I'm like, oh
, no, there's a recordingtonight.
And oh, but the kids are actingup, you know, and things are
like snowballing.
And then I'll get a like alittle ping that's like, oh, the
recording was canceled.
And I'm always like Like relief.

(06:20):
And then I'll get the emailthat's like I'm so sorry, I need
to move it because of this,this and this.
And I always reply and I'm like, you know, it seems to always
work out, though, that likesomeone reschedules or cancels
and I'm like, actually, thatworks out perfectly because I
needed the extra breathing room.
So it's.
I think it's also, you know,admitting to ourselves like

(06:42):
sometimes you do have to makethat space to say like I can't
do this right now.
And I'll give another example,since we're going with the
organic.
I had to.
You know, I mentioned itbriefly when we were in our
little pre recording.
I had the foresight back inMarch that I was like I'm going
to be really busy in April withmy daytime job.

(07:03):
So I knew I was like you knowwhat I'm going to have to block
April.
Like I already know, I'm notgoing to be able to do this.
What I didn't anticipate also,though, was once the project was
done and it was great success,I'm really proud of it but once
the project was done, I wasseverely burnt out, because I

(07:24):
had gone through this very crazyand and anybody who works
corporate knows like, when youhave one of these projects on
your plate, you're giving ityour all, so I was, you know,
doing 5.
Am to 11 PM, like really justthrowing everything I had at it,
and so, at the end of it, youknow, I was shot, like I
couldn't even really thinkthings through clearly, and it

(07:44):
was making me like, kind ofdepressed.
And, granted, like my cycle camein about the same time, so like
that was you know a whole otherlike hormonal thing, but it was
making me depressed because I'mlike, wow, like I don't feel
like podcasting, I don't feellike writing, I don't feel like
doing, and it was like all thisstuff that I normally love to do
.
All of a sudden, I was like Idon't want to do any of this, I

(08:05):
just want to lay here, like Ijust want to sleep, I just want
to watch TV Like I don't want toeven do anything.
And it's taken me almost like asolid two weeks to shake that
off and feel like I'm waking upagain, like I just started
meeting with all my podcastguests again this weekend.
Prior to that, I was like Idon't, I can't, I don't have the

(08:28):
brain space.
And now I'm excited again.
And now I'm like okay, I'm back.
So it's interesting, that littlegap of two weeks where I was
like in my head I knew that itwasn't.
This is how I talked to myself,melissa.
I'm like Jenny, I don't thinkthis is real.
I think you're probably justreally tired and you probably
just need this space right now.
And so I kept giving myselfspace to really just like let go

(08:50):
some of the stress that I hadbeen feeling.
And now that enough time haspassed, I'm like okay, I'm ready
, like I'm ready to jump back inthe saddle.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Was the you gave yourself space in the response
to noticing the lack ofmotivation and lack of
excitement you normally wouldfeel and when you noticed that
stuff, that's when you said waita minute, okay, and you were
able to say all right, I need todo something, which was block

(09:24):
off April, is that right?
Yeah, and you've had a coupleof weeks almost where you
haven't had a lot scheduled andyou've had some more time to
settle and maybe allow yoursystem to reset after a long
period of oh my gosh, it soundslike a brutal schedule 5am to
11pm.

(09:45):
It was intense.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
It was intense.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
How many days in a row.
Were you working like that?
Or for like what did that?
This might be too tangential tofor the podcast right now, but
I'm just curious like how longdid that go on for?

Speaker 1 (10:11):
did that go on for?
Um, it wasn't every day, but itwas at least three or three or
four times a week, so it wasnearly every day um for about
five weeks.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
That sounds very rough.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, and and, and I will say it is, it's, um, it's,
it's the nature of my profession.
You know this happens and I'vebeen in my career for about 16
years or so at this point, or 18.
I can't, I'm losing track alittle bit.
I think it might be 18.
In this profession for a longtime.

(10:45):
So I already knew, you know,and I and I know, I know what to
expect.
And the thing that I think savedme the most this time was one,
like I already recognized, Iknew it was coming, so I had
already started clearing myschedule.
I was like I know this iscoming and I can't do anything
about that.
It's my job.
So how can I and I like torefer to, like the glass ball,
rubber ball, like method, likethis is how I approach.

(11:06):
And I'm like, all right, well,what absolutely can I not move,
that I have to do?
And then what can I put, pushoff to another time.
And so every day was anexercise of like what do I have
to do?
Versus like what do I really?
You know, what should I bedoing?
Or what do I want to do, kindof thing.
And I'm very grateful for myfamily because they the last

(11:32):
week was very hard for everybodybecause they had like, had
enough, and they're like we wantmom back, like this is too much
.
But for the most of it I justkept talking to them, and even
my kids.
I would tell them and I wouldsit them down in the morning.
I'm like listen, mommy, thisproject that you understand and
they knew, and you know my teamwas really gracious and great
and everybody was verysupportive of each other.

(11:53):
But it just kind of had tohappen.
And so I would sit with my kidsand tell them like I'm so sorry
, you know, I know mommy'sreally busy and they're like Mom
, you know, we don't, we don'tlike this.
I'm like I understand, this iswhat's happening, this is when
it's going to be over, and Iwould show them on the calendar
like this is the day that it'sall done, and I would just
explain it to them.
And having that dialogue withthem I found was very important

(12:16):
because I didn't want them tonot understand what was going on
and then I didn't want them toget their own perception of like
what was happening.
Like why is mom not available?
Why is mom being like reallymean today?
You know, why is she snappingat us, like I'm very transparent
with my family.
So my husband obviously he's anadult, he gets it.
But my kids?
I would sit them and talk withthem and say, like at night I'd

(12:38):
pull all three of them togetherand be like, yeah, it was a
tough day for mommy, how wasyour day?
And then we would kind of justgo through it and talk.
And they weren't, they were,they're fine now and we're back
to our normal schedule.
And they know I'm like it's notmy preference, but it just had
to happen.
And the conversation, though,and the communication was, like
I think, crucial to gettingthrough the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
For everyone, right.
You too Right thing foreveryone, right.
You too right.
To be able to be present withthem in the way you did through
that, like so, with so muchmindfulness, is really amazing,
like so many layers of learningthat you gave your kids, in that
you know, like like I, justit's so beautiful how inviting

(13:28):
them to be relational with you,right, like inviting them to
look and see and hear andunderstand and be able to plan
and count.
And how do we navigate throughthis time, like, how do we do
that as humans when it's reallyhard and we're managing so much

(13:48):
in all of our lives and we havethe pressure of parenting, the
pressure of your visit, your job, your pressure of the things
you want to do, the things thatyou give you joy, too, right,
we're trying to cram all of thisstuff and not just work, right.
But that you showed them a wayto navigate that where you don't

(14:10):
do it by yourself, right, youdon't do it by toughing up and
pretending like everything isfine and not explaining, right.
And that you also, in thatinviting them in, really allowed
for this like support for youto receive too, so they can be

(14:34):
with you, in that you don't haveto do it alone.
All of this work is the motherand a professional.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
You know, know, that was and part of that was
actually very much part of why Ipresented it to them and was
like, and even before it gotreally crazy, I said things are
going to get a little crazy andI just explained it to everybody
.
There was a very there's verymuch a part of me that wanted to
do that, especially.
I know my girl, all three of mykids are picking things up from

(15:07):
me, obviously.
But like my daughters, I wantto make sure I'm trying very
much to impress upon them thatyou don't have to carry
everything by yourself, becausethat's very much how I've always
been and I'm trying to breakall those patterns now, like I
just started at 37, you of yearsback breaking these behaviors

(15:31):
and it's still taking time.
Like I said, it was painful forme to be like I want to spend
Mother's Day with my family.
That took a lot for me to beable to admit that I couldn't do
everything, and so now I'm verymuch thinking of everything I
do and I say every example thatI couldn't do everything.
And so now I'm very muchthinking of like, everything I
do and I say every example thatI'm putting out there.
They're seeing it, so it's notjust about lecturing your kids,

(15:55):
in my opinion, and it's not justabout like, oh, I'm telling you
what to do and do as I say, butnot what I do.
Like, how can I sit there andsay to my kids you don't have to
do everything by yourself ormake sure you ask for help when,
when?
I'm not modeling this behavior.
So it was very important to meto be able to show them like
mommy is having a tough daytoday.

(16:16):
This project is really kickingmy butt.
It's okay for me to cry infront of them.
They're, they understand, theyget it.
And I tell them I'm like, I'mjust really overwhelmed.
Like because I'm like I wantthis to be a space where they
get it.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Like this is okay, all these things are okay.
This is just being human, andthere's so much alignment in the
expression of that that I hearfrom you and your interactions
with them, and then also theinternal experience you have.
Yeah, you know, it matches.

(16:50):
You're not.
The affect or your expressionof it Isn't something that isn't
genuine.
It's actually what's happeningin your life.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's.
I mean, I got through it.
So, melissa, I want you toactually we went, we went, we
went for it.
I do want you to take a moment,though, to introduce yourself
to the listeners, because Imentioned gestalt psychotherapy
in your bio.

(17:21):
So I want to be able to explainthat to the listeners as well,
because actually, I very muchlike I like that psych bio.
So I want to be able to explainthat to the listeners as well,
because actually, I very muchlike I like that psychotherapy.
So I would love for you to goin a little bit more detail
there as well.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, it would have been.
I, as I was listening to ushave the conversation we just
did, I was thinking how so manythings, um, are so interesting
about what we were talking about, like about the relational
patterns, and, um, you had saidit took you 37 years.

(17:56):
It's taken you, taking you like37 years, right, you get to a
point 37 years of, like you know, operating a certain way that
began when you were very, veryyoung.
Yeah, right, and we gethardwired.

(18:16):
So, yeah, I'm so happy to talkabout gestalt therapy.
I will start by sharing thatGestalt really saved my life, as
you had already shared.
By the time I found Gestalt, Ihad been with two different

(18:41):
therapists very long term, solike close to a decade of my
life with therapists who, withtheir style and the modality
they used, they weren'trelational in nature.
It was a lot of trying to figurestuff out up here, sort of

(19:04):
avoid, in particular, my veryfirst therapist was like I don't
ever remember her asking meabout anything happening in my
body ever and now that'scompletely mind blowing.
But I was really stuck andunhappy and a couple of things

(19:25):
had happened in my life lossesand just stress of life and, um,
you know, walking into atherapist's office for the very
first time was pretty mindboggling to me, like it was just
a very unknown process.
I didn't know what to expect, Ididn't know what it was about.
I was very scared of it and theperson who normalized it for me

(19:49):
, you know, I could hear fromhim I probably couldn't hear it
from many people at that pointin my life, but I was able to
hear from him that I neededsomething that I wasn't I didn't
have.
You know, I don't know, I don't.
At the time I didn't know whatthat was, I didn't understand.

(20:11):
But you know I struggled withfeeling depressed and at times
probably anxious, although wedidn't call it anxiety like we
do today.
Um, that's been a term that'sreally been integrated into our
culture and our existence andpart of mainstream conversation
now.

(20:31):
But so 10 years goes by and I goback to school and went and
studied social work and was withmy therapist through all of
this and finished graduateschool.
I met my first job in communitymental health and my clinical
supervisor at that time and ourvery first session sat down with

(20:54):
me and basically guided me intoGestalt, without me really
knowing what was going on andwhat you know.
You say that I found gestalt.
Gestalt I didn't find it at all.
It found me, you know, and whatwas missing from all the

(21:16):
therapy that I had and I'm alsogoing to include, like there
were groups in here a couple ofdifferent groups that I attended
therapy groups.
It wasn't just seeing atherapist, only in terms of the
healing work that I was doing,and I also relied on medication

(21:37):
for my moods and to deal with mydepression, and so I had that
relationship that was monthly,consistent, you know.
So I had a lot going on.
It was an opportunity to lookat myself, but nothing was
really changing.
You know like I was asdepressed 10 years after
investing in therapy you knowthat I was when I began and I

(22:02):
was just so lost.
And what Gestalt did was thatrelationship I had with that
therapist.
And I'll start talking aboutGestalt a little bit.
I'm going to jump around and Ihope I won't be too confusing,
but let me go back and just do aquick history of Gestalt.
Gestalt is the first knownamerican psychotherapy.

(22:25):
It was brought over by uh fritzand laura pearls.
They were married um fritzpearls was born um at the turn
of the century late 1800s, andhe was a soldier and he was a
german jew.
He served in world war one inthe trenches and came from a
family of lawyers and had thispredetermined fate of.

(22:47):
He was supposed to be a lawyerand he came out of this war with
what we would call PTSD today.
He went into treatment and heended up going to medical school
and he studied with Freud, andFritz was the first person to
dispute any of Freud's theoriespublicly and he was told at the

(23:11):
time if you do this, you'renever going to work.
You don't do this.
Like you know, freud was wasthe person at that time who was
also a medical doctor, and hecaused a total uproar at a
conference when he gave somekind of a I don't know if it was
a plenary speech or whateverbut through his own experiences

(23:34):
in life and his own curiositiesand his own wounding is how this
got developed and what he sawmissing so much from also
Freud's work was we can't tellsomebody what their experience
is right.
So analysis of somebody else'sissues or analysis of their

(23:54):
problems or analysis of whatthey're doing really isn't so
helpful, because how you makemeaning in the world, how your
patterns have developed overtime, is what's important.
Right, because you can have twopeople in the same environment
and growing up like siblings andthey both turn out completely
differently.

(24:15):
Why you know exactly.
So Freud recognized, or Fritzrecognized, some things that
were missing.
One was the experience of whatwas happening in the body.
So, because he had gone throughthis incredible trauma, he and
he had what we would have calledPTSD.
He was having these experiencesand felt them and had to find a

(24:42):
way to cope with them.
And it wasn't by shoving themdown or suppressing them.
It was really by allowing themto emerge and give voice to them
and feel through them andthrough that experience, with
someone sitting across from youwho shows up like a real human
being.
You know, we enter into arelationship with our clients

(25:03):
and patients and through thisrelationship you have an
opportunity to explore some ofthe wounding and some of the
patterns that have developedover time, that have become
healthy.
Some we know really well, somewe don't know so well, some

(25:29):
emerge in the process ofdiscovery, in the, in therapy,
in the context of thatrelationship.
So gestalt is known as severalthings.
It's known as an embodiedtherapy.
So what's happening somaticallyin our body, where we feel
things?
What do they feel like?
Do we know what they're called?
Because that is your navigationsystem and that informs you of

(25:56):
what your experience is.
And it has to start therebecause we're not going to
figure it out up here, we're notgoing to remember every single
thing in our lives from up here,but our bodies never, ever
forget.
So embodied, experiential, sopresent in the moment.

(26:17):
Relational meaning I show up ina very authentic way with my
patients.
So if I'm moved by something,you know, it might be very
therapeutic for them to see thatthey're having an impact on me
and that I'm touched bysomething and what that evokes

(26:38):
and what that's like to have aconversation, dialogue right,
use the word dialogue earlierAround, what our experience is
of one another and for me tohelp, you know, with my patients
, guide them with their ownexperience.
So it's also known as acreative therapy.

(26:59):
It's also known as aconfrontational therapy, not
because we're mean, but becausewe're.
We notice things and we mightpoint things out that we hear or
we see.
And so just you know, pointingsomebody out like I noticed you

(27:22):
moved your hand up here Canmaybe for somebody feel very
confrontational in a negativeway, like being seen.
It can be very startling andfor some, you know, maybe it
doesn't elicit that.
Who knows what happens in themoment.
But it's a really complexrelationship.
The work that I do is from anattachment lens, attachment

(27:49):
theory framework, where I reallydo believe that our relational
patterns in the world and whatwe've developed has come through
our family of origins and thoserelationships we had with our
parent or lack of parent figures, and then how we learn to
respond to that, to the biggerfield around us, to how we

(28:12):
figured out just how to navigatelife.
And, like I said, some of thosethings are very healthy and
some of those things are nothealthy at all and some, some of
those behaviors or patternsmight even be completely
destructive, right?
So it's really about and I tellall of my patients this therapy
is very simple with me.
It's not easy, but it's verysimple.

(28:34):
Awareness is the key, becauseonce we're aware of something,
once we're aware of a feeling,once we're aware of an
experience, once we're aware ofsomething, of what we're doing,
how we're showing up, what'scoming up for us, then we have a
choice, and that is it.
That is the key.
It is that simple that itoffers you a choice and you can

(28:57):
make the same choice over andover, or you can try to
incorporate maybe somethingdifferent about the choice
you're making, and it might be asubtle change, right, it might
be something very small that'stolerable, around the behavior
or around, a pattern that youcan incorporate, because change
happens slowly, over time.

(29:18):
This is not a race.
There's no destination, there'sno outcome that I can tell you,
you should ever expect from theprocess of at least working
with me.
Because what emerges in theforeground when we stay present
with ourselves, when we'represent in a relationship, when

(29:40):
we connect back to what ourexperience is as we do, that the
foreground, what emerges orwhat comes forward within our
awareness changes.
So that feeling maybe, that youhave in your chest when oh,

(30:03):
it's so hard to cancel onmother's day, that feeling, yeah
, maybe you can be with thatfeeling.
Yeah, maybe you can be withthat.
And in that process of beingwith that, what's that like?
What comes up for you, what'sit like to share that with me?
What's it like to just sit withthat in your body, what does it

(30:23):
feel like to sit in it?
You know, and explore everysingle aspect that we can think
of in order to have a differentrelationship with herself.
I'm going to sneeze.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Bless you.
No, no, it's good, you know.
It's interesting because, asyou were talking, I was thinking
of examples of like you know,even just observing.
So I think a lot of peoplemyself, my former self included
um stay incredibly busy as a wayof hiding from, like sitting

(31:09):
silently with yourself, becausemajority of people from, in my
opinion, what I observe is thatpeople are very sorely actually
disconnected from themselves andwe're using work, social media,
like you know, social socialoutings, like you kind of use it

(31:32):
to fill everything in, becausethe reality is like you're not,
you're not being mindful andyou're really not paying
attention to like well, how doyou actually feel about this?
And I was explaining, I wastelling my cousin the other day.
She was very surprised to hearthis, but I said to her that I
actually get a very large amountof anxiety when I have to leave

(31:55):
my area, like my, and when Ihave to travel, and my work
sometimes requires travel.
So I have to leave, like andI'm not going any place far,
like majority of it's, you know,driving distance.
I'm going to New York or I wentdown to Virginia, you know,
like just places, that's rightthere, um, but whenever I have
to leave my area, my home, likejust places, that's right there.
But whenever I have to leave myarea, my home, my town, where I

(32:16):
live right now, I start to getanxious and, sure enough, like
clockwork night before I can'tsleep and I start thinking
through well, what if I get intoan accident?
What if something happens to mewhile I'm out of the house?
Like, is everything preparedfor my family?
Like, what if something happensand I, I'm this?
Is it like this is the lasttime I'm here?
Will they will?

(32:38):
Does my husband know where allthe documents?

Speaker 2 (32:40):
are.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
And it's, it's crazy, because you're just, you're
just, it's normal you'recommuting someplace, like it's
not a big deal.
This anxiety starts to reallylike settle in and I know what
it is, I recognize it for whatit is and I understand I'm like
this isn't, in my opinion, real.

(33:02):
Jenny, this is something that'syou're having a trigger for
some reason, and I haven't quitefigured out what the reason is,
but I already know that it's atrigger.
And so whenever that anxietystarts to come up, I recognize
it for what it is and I startself-talking and I'm like, jenny
, you know this isn't real, likeeverything's fine, you're going

(33:22):
to be safe, you'll be carefulwhile you're out there and
everyone's fine here.
And I kind of just like getover that hump.
Because the reality of thesituation is, if I lean into
that anxiety, that fear of justnot being in my home,
controlling everything, if Ilean into that, well then what
does that do?
That is basically making myworld that much smaller and it's

(33:45):
removing experiences that Imight not have.
So I always kind of I just faceit head on and that was
something that I learned when Istarted therapy in my early
twenties and anxiety I wasletting it wash over me and I
was letting it control me and Iwas letting it, I was allowing

(34:06):
it to rule my whole world.
And so it took.
You know this was in my early20s.
I took, like you know, a solidlike 18 years for me to really
understand, like you know, thisfeeling that you're having isn't
actually real and it's not justapplicable to you know, me
leaving my area, there's otherthings that I get anxiety about,

(34:28):
where I'm like all right, jenny, you recognize what this is.
So this, this trigger happenedand now this is your physical
response.
And I keep touching my chest,listeners, because that's where
I get it.
Like I start to feel it rightin my chest and then I actually
start to feel it in my throat,like it feels, like my throat
starts to close and I just knowwhat it is now.

(34:49):
And having that awareness ofwhat it is empowers me to get
past it and it empowers me to beable to say, like you know, I
acknowledge you, I know that youexist there, anxiety, but I'm
not going to lean into it, I'mjust going to take a breath and
I'm going to take a small stepforward here and that's helping
me to get not not so much overit because I'm still there, but

(35:14):
I'm able to get around it.
I'm able to get past it, I'mable to continue on with my life
without it ruling me.
And I'm sure there's many, manyother listeners that are
probably nodding along like,yeah, you know I do get anxiety
here and there and this and thatand I know it's more severe for
others than you know.
It varies, but it's somethingthat I've recognized and been
able to get past.

(35:34):
And just acknowledging it, inmy opinion and you know a lot of
us will start to feel anxietyyou feel at first like it's not
I don't think it's not in yourhead, it's in your physical body
.
And if you are using how you'refeeling as a barometer like
Melissa already said, you aguidance to help you recognize,

(35:57):
like, am I really happy withthis situation or am I not happy

(36:19):
with this situation?
Because even that gets muddied,like people don't really
recognize.
Well, I'm doing this because Ifeel guilted into doing this or
I'm doing this because I feellike it's an obligation and it's
not something I really want tobe doing.
And when you're in those kindsof scenarios, those emotions
will also start to snowball.
Because when I used to putmyself in the scenario of I

(36:41):
don't really want to do this,but I'm doing it because I feel
like I have to, I would getreally angry and I would lash
out at everybody else.
And the reality was I wasreally mad at myself for not
saying no, which is why Ipractice now saying no yeah

(37:05):
there's your double-edged sword,like between victim and martyr.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Right there your example I don't say no and I'm
angry.
You lash out at other peoplebecause you didn't say no,
because you know I can't say no,I can't take up space, I can't,
I don't want to upset them, Idon't want to.
Whatever the thing is, rightthat you're telling yourself

(37:29):
that is going to happen when youset limits.
And Right, you're such a martyr, you're so generous, you're so
giving you.
Look at you, right.
But the other side then withthat anger is you turn it on
yourself too.
Right?
There's, like this victim oflike I can't say no.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
You know, look at all I have to do.
I have to do all this.
Look at how I show up foreverybody, um, but you're
attacking everybody and you'reattacking yourself in that
process, right?
And anxiety is such a painfulexperience to have like.
When people say, when they usethat word anxiety with me, I

(38:13):
have no idea what that means,because it's such a variety of
emotions, potential emotions andpotential physical symptoms
that people go through that andit looks different for every
single person and they feel itdifferently in their bodies,

(38:34):
they feel it at different places.
So I really appreciate hearingthat awareness that you have
when your body is anxious, youhave a practice of hey, wait a
minute, I'm noticing this andyou know it well.
Now, you know it very well.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
I'm guessing that this part of you has been around
for a very, very long time.
Say that once more.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
I didn't catch it.
I will bet that this part ofyou, your anxious part, has been
around for a very long time.
Yeah, this is old, right, so Iappreciate your honing into what

(39:29):
your body is telling you,because it's probably very
uncomfortable, right, it'sprobably something that like
don't like, we want to run awayfrom it because it's painful.
So many things happenphysiologically in our bodies
when we're anxious.
It is astounding, and we haveso many emotions that come with
anxiety.
And then you also have all ofthe thought processes that go

(39:50):
with it, and it is a list of Idon't even know how many things,
I wonder.
I should probably compile thatsomeday.
But for you to be willing tocome back to that and connect to
it and listen to it, first ofall, good for you.
It's very difficult to do,because everything about that
emotion or that experience tellsus to leave, get the heck away.

(40:10):
Right, it's so unsafe, but yourbody's signaling to you
something doesn't feel okay.
And so reality testing of like,wait a minute, is this really
truthful fear or is the?
Am I making this?
up right now Like futuristicthinking, fear of the unknown.

(40:31):
Oh god, a car accident?
This could happen.
This could happen.
What if?
What if?
What, if, what, if, what if?
Well, yeah, I mean, probablymany of those things are based
in reality.
It could happen.
But it's just a way for you tostay small, right, it wants to
keep you safe.
It wants to keep you small.

(40:52):
It wants to keep you safe.
It wants to keep you small, itwants to protect you.
This anxiety and realitytesting, and then you know what?
Maybe there is something to payattention to, right, maybe wait
a minute.
If that's not the situation,are you really happy here?
Is this a choice?
Whatever this is, it's comingup for you.
Is this something you are?

(41:12):
Is this a choice?
Whatever this is that's comingup for you?
Is this something you are?
Do you like it?
Does it feel good?
What does it feel like?
And being able to let this beyour guide?
Your body is your guide.
Your body will never lie to you.
You think it is, or you think itwill, or you're afraid it might
, but it won't.

(41:34):
We have learned you said thisearlier to disconnect, right,
we've learned and been taught todisconnect from our very own
innate knowing.
Yeah, you know our innate beingwith ourselves, and we have no
chance of being with otherpeople if we cannot tolerate
being with ourselves.

(41:55):
You know so and it's a process,right, like if you just go
around and you're just kind ofan anxious person in general.
It's a process to learn to payattention, to be able to
tolerate those feelings, to beable to understand, to be able
to know.
Well, I don't know, maybe,where this comes from, I don't
know what this really means, buthere it is again, I know what I

(42:18):
need to do, right, and that's,like, I think, the gift of the
awareness that comes as a resultof of course, I'm going to
always say gestalt, becausethat's what I practice and
that's what really resonated forme and my healing and the work
I do.
That's, you know, when I seepeople heal and their lives
change.
Something's right.

(42:39):
Right, but that's the beauty ofwhat this has, you know, offered
to me is the opportunity to bepresent with myself and know
myself and understand myself ina way that I never did before
you know, and in that becauseit's like a lesson in how to

(43:02):
have a relationship withsomebody, then being able to
work through some of that stuffin the context of how does that
play out now in my relationshipswith people?
Because you know, wherever yougo, there you are and a really
good therapist is going to takeyou back to those moments where
you are stuck again.

(43:24):
You know, and that's thepainful work is to be able to
tolerate all that.
But I will also say it is lifechanging, you know, not just
life saving, you know, but lifechanging, which is the hard
thing to do.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Right when I was 37, there was like a pivotal.
But I actually want to say whenI was 25, I think I think it

(44:03):
was the year that I turned 25.
I was single and I just, youknow, was working and I remember
it was a almost like a pivotal.
Like you know, 25 is a bigbirthday, right, so for me I was
like it was like a one of thosepivotal, like moments where I
could stick a pin and say thisis when I started to really
think about well, jenny, what doyou, what do you want to be
doing, or what do you like, whatdo you want.

(44:23):
Because for a really long timeI was consistently like oh, I'll
be there for everybody else.
Oh, I'm fine, I'm to the side,I, oh I'll.
You know, my own things are nota big deal and it was very
consistent Like I'll use theword martyr earlier, like I'll
throw myself into the fire forsomebody else.
And it took a whole year of mealmost rewiring my brain.

(44:51):
And actually that was when Ihad started more deeply looking
into, like you know, how are,how, what, how are my thoughts
running through my head and howare those thoughts then changing
?
Like how I'm feeling in my bodyand what kind of energy am I
putting out there into theuniverse?
Like what am I, what am Isaying that I want without

(45:12):
really saying that I want it,and not realizing what's going
on.
And there was a full year of mereflecting on this because I
wasn't happy, like I was lookingat my life and being like I
really don't like how this isgoing.
Like I want to.
You know, I would love to getmarried.
At that point I was like I'dlove to get married, I'd love to
have a family.
Like I want to meet somebody.
Like you know, I would love toget married.
At that point I was like I'dlove to get married, I'd love to

(45:32):
have a family.
Like I want to meet somebody.
Like you know, I want to startthis other phase of my life, but
I don't know where.
I don't even know me at thispoint.
And at that point I was like,if I don't know me, exactly what
you just said, I was like wellthen, how could I even begin to
think of anybody else or beginto put myself into anything else
?
Because up until that point,jenny existed as a reflection of

(45:56):
the people around her.
She wasn't Jenny, she was justa reflection of everyone else
and what I thought everyone elsewanted to see.
So I took this year and reallyreflected, and really deeply
reflected on like well, how areyou feeling about this situation
?
And that was the first time Iactually started to be like okay

(46:17):
, somebody asked you to do this,are you okay doing this or do
you not want to do it and thatwas when I first started saying
you know what?
No, I don't want to go or I'mnot interested.
And it was very small Becauseyou know, as you said, like
change is not a big problem.
I think a lot of us have is thatwe think things have to happen
in one huge change, one fellswoop.

(46:38):
We're making this change.
Yeah, if you try to do that,you're going to fail because
your brain is already wired towhat you are currently doing.
And in order to rewire yourbrain, this is not something
that happens really fast.
It is very small baby steps,because if you try it too fast,
it's going to feel toouncomfortable and you're going
to fail at it.

(46:58):
So it started really small,where I would just say like no,
I can't stay late at work, whichpained me because I was a
workaholic.
So that was like a tough, youknow, and just saying no to my
family was huge, huge.
Saying no to my family was huge, huge.
So flash forward a year.
I meet my husband and Iremember meeting him and I came

(47:21):
home and I remember we went on afirst date very next day.
We met on a Friday.
We went on our first date on aSaturday.
I remember very detailed how itall went down and I remember
going home and you know, my, myfamily was there and they were
like, oh, you know how was itexpecting like a funny cause.
I would always come home withthese funny, you know little
stories about oh, it wenthorribly wrong and this and that

(47:43):
.
And I just I said to my cousin,who's my closest friend, and I
was like I think I think this isit, this is the guy.
And she was like I think thisis it, this is the guy.
And she was like what are youtalking about?
But it took this year of mereally digging deep for me to be
able to see him for who he wasand for what I saw in the future

(48:04):
that I saw with him.
Now, that's not to say it was byany means some kind of fairy
tale situation.
It wasn't Just, you know, justlike any relationship.
We had problems in thebeginning, like you know what
have you?
But at every stop I would stopand I would turn inwardly and
say, okay, are you happy?

(48:25):
At night, when you lay yourhead down like, are you happy?
Are you happy with how thingsare going?
Because everyone around me hadvery loud opinions about what I
was doing, because, for them,they saw my dating my husband as
this massive departure fromwhat they were expecting of me,

(48:45):
and because I became seriouswith him so quickly, they all
saw this as a problem, because Iwas actually withdrawing my,
you know attention from everyoneelse and putting it to myself
and what I wanted for the firsttime, and it was.
It was a very, very hard thingto go through at the time
because you know you, you wantyour family to be supportive,

(49:07):
you want, you know, your friendsto be supportive and what I
start?
I started losing people in mylife because, for the first time
ever, I was doing somethingthat I truly was happy with and
I saw so much positivity in itthat I couldn't turn away from
it.
And there and every step of theway, I would ask myself Jenny,
are you happy?

(49:27):
Are you happy today?
Are we happy with thissituation?
And every time it came back,yes, I was like, okay, we're
going to keep going.
And and I had and now I've, youknow, been able to cultivate
this beautiful thing here, thisbeautiful family, but it was
really truly because I stoppedlistening to all the noise
around me and I really justturned inwardly and was like am

(49:51):
I happy now?
And it was very.
It was.
It sounds simple and silly, butit took a lot of work to be
able to do that.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
I'm going to guess that every, almost every single
person listening to you talkright now is identifying with
what you're sharing.
This is like podcasts by womenfor women, with women right
Steel Roses.
I love the title, by the way.

(50:22):
I probably already told youthat, but being so quick, we are
taught as females in oursociety and it's still taught
today.
You know we think we're soprogressive and advanced and you
know, to be honest, we're stilldoing a lot of the same things

(50:42):
we've always done, right?
We're just doing more of it now, right?
So now it's not just yourmother, and that's the role you
have, and that's the importanceand you take care of the home
and you take care of the family.
You take care of the family, youtake care of the, the spouse.
Now it's well.
You can also go to school andyou can also have a career, and
then you can also have a podcaston top of that and you can also
look really good and be inshape and be healthy and be like

(51:04):
you know.
All these things you can do itall.
You can have it all.
That's what we have shiftedfrom.
You have limits as a woman.
You don't get to get aneducation.
You don't get to be a CEO likeyou're.
You know to well.
You can do all that.
But you still have to be a momtoo, Right, Right.
You still have to be selflessand care and feed and nourish

(51:29):
birth.
I mean, I didn't start with thebirthing of it, but carry that
Right.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
Look at all the female.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Look at what the female body goes through for a
pregnancy and a birth.
Like we don't talk about thetrauma of pregnancy.
It's very traumatic to a femalebody and women do it all the
time.
Look, look, how amazing theyare.
Right?
But we be are so programmed.
We are so programmed to deferto the other person's needs,

(52:00):
Right?
Even in this role we're talkingabout, we have deferred now to
somebody else's society's ideaof how we should be living as a
woman, right?
So there's something wrong withyou.
If you chose to have a careerand not chose, if you chose to
not have children of your own,if you chose not to have

(52:21):
children, if you didn't have adrive, or do not have a drive to
be a mother and birth a child,society tells you there is
something wrong with you.
If you really do take care ofyourself and you set limits and

(52:42):
you fire that person that, likeyou know, isn't doing their job
they're stealing time, whateverthe thing is that's going on
then you're a bitch.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Are you allowed to curse on this podcast?
I didn't even know I haven'theard profanity on the episodes.
I've listened to.
Here we go.
Oh my God, melissa BennettHines she said the word bitch,
you know.
So we're just so conditioned.
We're so conditioned and it'sso easy for us to defer and say

(53:11):
and sacrifice ourself offbecause that's what we're taught
to do.

(53:35):
So, relearning that we matter,relearning that we are somebody
we need to pay attention to andthat our life matters and the
way we feel in the world andwhat we want matters.
And there are so manyinterjects or shoulds or defined
roles that we learned, ormessages we learned about how to
be, how to look, how to do, howto act.
You know that to break out ofthat, to make small changes,
when that stuff is so ingrainedfrom so many directions in our
culture, to not do that anymoreis nothing short of a total act

(53:58):
of rebellion.
Right To say no.
I can't do that on Mother's Day, because you know what I am a
mom, and this is important to meand my family wants to army.
This is what I'm doing.
Yeah, right, and not no,because I said I'd have the
podcast and I said I could do itall, and so now I have to do it
all.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Oh, I have.
This is like a constant, aconstant theme and and I will
and you know it's funny,interesting I met with um this
season in this series that'srunning right now, I interviewed
a woman that was.
She was there for the veryfirst women's conference in
Boston and for like the feministmovement in the very, very
early days and the opening thingshe said to me on her episode,

(54:39):
the very first thing she saidwas I'm very sorry for what
things have turned out to be.
She's like the intention wasnever for us to do everything.
It was just to have theopportunity to be able to make a
choice to do things, but it wasnever meant for us to wholly
carry every single thing thatwe're carrying, because she knew

(55:02):
she said exactly what you justsaid.
She's like I know you're amother, you have a full time job
, you work the podcast.
She was like and you'reprobably doing a bunch of other
things that are like full timejobs, and I know every single
woman I know is doing the samething, everything basically on
them.
And only recently and I've saida few times in this episode,

(55:26):
only recently have I started tosay like oh wait, no, I'm not
available.
You know that when things werethe tough that last week that my
project was like really goingcrazy, I canceled all the kids
extracurricular activities forthe week.
I was like we're not coming toanything this week it's not
going to happen, like just notdoing it to myself and I have to
make space for myself.
Now.
I know, I know that I gotjudged for that, not here at

(55:49):
home, because, what you know, myhusband's like yes, choose
yourself.
Yeah, I know I got judged forthat because I was like they're
not coming to practice, they'renot going to games, it's not
happening.
We're not going to any of thesemeetings.
And the look to the outsideworld is like wow, how selfish
is she that she chose her career.
And I'm like it really wasn't.

(56:10):
To me it was more of a choice ofsanity.
Am I going to make myselfinsane?
And my husband will always sayto me they're eight, jen,
they're not professional soccerplayers.
They can miss a couple of gamesand it will be all good.
Something my husband hasconsistently said to me and I
only recently again put it intopractice was he was like you

(56:31):
have to be okay because you'rethe ship, you're the mothership,
and if the ship goes down, weare all going down.
He's like, so you have to bemaking sure that you are okay,
that your health is okay, thatyour mental health is okay, like
you have to be a priority,because if you're not a priority
.
You're going to fall and thenyou're going to take us all down

(56:53):
with you, and that's a bigthing that I think that a lot of
women we don't see prioritizingourselves as something that's
going to benefit everybody.
But we cannot.
We cannot fill everyone else'scups from an empty vessel, so
we're totally depleted, that'sit.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah, and we operate from a society that's relational
style.
Our entire society's relationalstyle is codependent and I can
talk about the codependency inthe structure of our society and
in our relationships all overthe place.

(57:32):
I could go in many differentdirections and give you examples
of what do I mean by this, butwith women, like with what
you're talking about, you'retalking about.
So when I say codependency, allI am doing is describing a

(57:53):
dynamic.
I'm describing a way thatpeople operate in a relationship
.
It's almost like a flavor, butit's a dynamic, it's a quality
and a person who is codependent.
And I know that's like abuzzword and a big word and I
don't really think a lot ofpeople even know what it means.
But literally what it means issacrificing our own needs for

(58:18):
seemingly somebody else's gainor somebody else's need or what
you perceive, somebody else'sneed to be Right.
Our whole society operates thisway and we think in this well,

(58:38):
I won't go to the gym, I won'ttake that time, I'll make that
dinner.
I won't take that time, I'llmake that dinner.
I got to put the laundry away.
I still have to finish writingmy notes from my sessions this
week and my husband's notfeeling good and he's really
struggling right now with hispain and we're so behind on so

(59:00):
many things to do.
I really don't have time to goto the gym, even though I just
sat and worked for, you know,probably more than a full-time
work week, right, and the onething I do for myself is I get
my rear end to the gym and if Iget in that door I am working
out like and it really doesn'tmatter what I do, because when I

(59:23):
show up and I start gettinginto it, then, like you know,
the momentum goes.
It feels good to be there.
But to create that space, tocarve out that time, to say, in
order for me to function, inorder for me to sleep well, best
, in order for me to show up inmy job, in my role, in order for
me to be a good partner, to bea kind person in our society, to

(59:50):
be a patient friend you know tobe, you know just, all of that
takes a lot of awareness and alot of being willing.
And if I'm tired and I'm notwell cared for and my body's
breaking down and I don't feelgood and there's no time for me

(01:00:10):
and I've done it in service ofanother's needs, perceived needs
.
Then what have I really done?
What have I done?
Right, I've harmed me.
And now, by harming me, I'veharmed every single person
around me.

(01:00:31):
I promise you, you don't want toknow me when I'm too tired and
I'm not feeling good and I'm inmore pain and my body's
screaming at me because Ihaven't stretched or done yoga
or Pilates, and I miss a week ofyoga and Pilates.
And boy do I know it.
And and you know what, not onlydo I know it, everybody around
me knows it.
And how is that giving?

(01:00:55):
How is that kind?
How is that caring?
It's not yeah, you know, it'sactually me to not take care of
ourselves, because we're not.
We're not martyrs, you know,and we're also not victims.
We don't have to do it all.
We don't, we don't.
And so being able to just likerecognize when we're in this

(01:01:17):
relational style because I thinkit goes on all over the place,
because I think it goes on allover the place, you know when we
can start stopping that patternand just checking in with
ourselves and just saying, hey,is this what I want?
Is this?
How do I feel about this?
Is this something that alignswith my truth inside, if I
really pause and check in withmyself of what I need or what I

(01:01:41):
want, and can you give it toyourself?
Yeah, because, you know, in amarriage or with children or in
our work, sometimes we do haveto sometimes put some of our
needs on pause.
Right, and are these reallyneeds or are they wants?

(01:02:04):
You know, and deciphering andlearning that about yourself.
You know what, what makes youtick.
You know what.
What is it that fills your cupof?
What makes what do you need inorder to function optimally for
you?
Yeah, can you give it to youRight, cause that's the hard
part, right?
Like I think a lot of womenmight say they know what they

(01:02:26):
want, but they would never takeup that space, yeah.
Oh I could never, I could never,you know and you know, I want
to share something, thoughbefore I'm going to, like you
know, respond, of course, but Ihave to just do one more thing.
I have women that I work with,and all ages, but I really
noticed something that hascaused me to feel so much

(01:02:49):
tenderness and empathy towardswomen is I know women who have
just sacrificed their whole life.
They have just their whole lifewas an act of service,
literally, and they get to 50,60, service, literally, and they

(01:03:09):
get to 50, 60, 70, 80.
And I'm not kidding.
I've had women who were intheir seventies sitting with me
who've said I don't even knowwhat I enjoy, I don't even
really know what I want to do, Idon't know what I even really
like to eat.
Yeah, I don't even know what toprepare.
If it were just for me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
And it's a mind blowing thing for them to pause
in that for a moment for thefirst time, but also to start
being able to figure out how tonavigate, taking up some space
in the world.
Yeah, and I'm so glad thatyou're not doing this at like 80
or 70.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Well, and that was like a big deal too.
Like, to be perfectly honest, Ifelt very blessed that at 30,
well, it's interesting, thething that happened when I was
37 was also a work trigger.
It was a project for work thatat that time, leading up into

(01:04:07):
that point, I very activelywould always like workaholic.
My way through things like thatwas just, I just did it.
And I did it when my kids werereally young, out of guilt,
because I'm like, oh, I havethree babies, I need to prove
myself.
Like it was that whole, youknow that whole thinking.
Yeah, but it stayed with me fora really long time.
And at 37 was when I had thatlike it was.

(01:04:28):
It was like a light switch allof a sudden.
I was like I don't want to dothis, I'm miserable.
Like what am I doing?
And it took time, like it tooka lot of like this.
You know I and I didn't do italone Like I tapped into.
You know they have there's somany great virtual programs now
that you can tap into forsupport.
You have to be careful,obviously, make sure you get a

(01:04:50):
good one.
I happened to find is it wasbecause I started researching
podcasting that I found thisonline community to become a
part of where I ended up takingcourses, and it like shifted
everything that I did.
And I've spoken to women on thepodcast that, as you said, like
didn't really recognize likethat they wanted to do something

(01:05:16):
for themselves and didn't evenknow what they wanted to do
until they got much, much older.
And it is because we are soconditioned to spend so much
time focusing and sacrificingfor others.
I was taught that.
I was literally my motherliterally said those words to me
that you know like godliness is, you know, sacrifice for others

(01:05:36):
, turn the other cheek, do that,and it was just deeply put into
my mind to do it.
But then it started backfiringand I started getting very
resentful of, like, my kids andmy husband and I would see them
enjoying themselves and I wouldbe like, why am I sweating in
here scrubbing a toilet when Ilike what and everyone's outside

(01:05:56):
having fun?
Like what am I doing?
And you know it, it very muchwill snowball into something
really terrible if you're notpaying attention to, like how
you're feeling about things andsomething else.
And I refer to my husband a lotand things that he says, because
I he's very, to me, veryinsightful and you know we even

(01:06:17):
talk about, like ourrelationship as a couple and you
know, paying attention to eachother.
Because a lot of times when youhave kids, you know you're not,
you're so focused on the kidsthat you neglect the marriage.
And he said to me in his wisdomhe said because he has older
children.
He said to me he was like theseguys are going to grow up and

(01:06:39):
they're going to leave the houseand then you and I are going to
be what strangers like.
We have to actually focus onour relationship too.
So there's so much more to it.
Even if you don't have kids tolike, focus on the relationship.
Spend time with yourself, spendtime with your partner, spend
time at work, but balanceeverything out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
So that you're not over indexing in places.
You know, and there maybesometimes you do have to, like I
just said, like I had to spend,you know, five or six weeks of
my life totally focused on myjob, but now I'm balanced,
pulled back and balancing thingsout again.
You know, like it's reallythere is no end goal.
There is no.
Oh, I, I'm here now and now I'mdone.

(01:07:20):
Like there is no end, this isit.
This life is the journey.
Like we're not.
Like, oh, we checked this box,Now I can relax, I don't have to
do anything anymore.
Like no, like this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Is it?
We're living it, like you know,we just got to get there.
Yes, it's, it's.
You say so much when you speak,but you know, for families with
children, when I think of thepartnership, like the parents,
they're the teachers, they'rethe leaders, they're the people
who model, they are the guides,they are the people that these

(01:07:59):
little beings, your children,are going to have their
foundation for their entire lifeset from you, and they are
going to learn every littlething and so much more than you
even imagine, right from you,things that you hope they don't
learn.
They're going to learn, whetheryou think you did it or not.

(01:08:20):
And when I think of the healthof a family, when I think of the
health of a family, when Ithink of the health of the
children, you know what the, Ithink, idea is.
You sacrifice for the kids,right.
You do it for the kids.
Well, that's an imbalance,right?
Because if the guides, if the,if the vessels who are leading

(01:08:45):
all of this and teaching are notwell, if there's discord, if
there's resentment, if there'slack of communication, if
there's anger, whatever thethings come up where they're not
working as a unit and they'renot loving and they're not
modeling, all of like, how to bein a relationship with one
another, then the kids are goingto suffer, right?

(01:09:08):
So if you as a couple are nothealthy, if you're not well, if
you're not connected, if you'renot working as a team to teach
these young people, your kids,then they are not going to learn
the most from you that'spossible, and in fact, it's not
just the most from you that'spossible, and in fact it's not
just the most it's.
You 'll also learn some thingsthat are going to be damaging.

(01:09:28):
If you, as a couple, make itright.
You as a couple have to make itfor this family to remain
intact, yeah, you know.
And if you want them to remainintact, you have to invest into
your partnership and that is themost important thing in this
family, right?
Kids are so resilient.
We're going to make mistakes.

(01:09:49):
As parents, you're going to dothings that are going to cause
harm, no matter how smart youare, how many books you've read,
I think about that all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Now, I'm sure you're going to go into therapy, guys,
I'm sure of it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Yep, and you've done a good job.
If your kid is willing to go totherapy, you know like you've
got it all about it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Listen like there's other moms that I'm friends with
, that we all very much are onthis, this train of like.
Hey, you know what a littleextra help can hurt, right like
you know which is a monthlyvisit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Why not?
I'm not supposed to do it alone, no we are not hardwired to do
it alone.
We are.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
It was never met.
Like the phrase it takes avillage is like real, like it
really?

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
it's absolutely takes a village, right, because what
if the grocery store guy decideshe's not doing that anymore?
Where are you getting your food?
Exactly right.
So, like, what's going tohappen if your doctor decides I
don't want to do that anymore?
Like what, what are we going todo?
Right, what if the teachersdecided they're staying home?
Like what if all the teachersjust decided I'm done?
You know, it really does take avillage.

(01:10:52):
So it's like macro.
We need to be thinking that wayof like.
How do we care for ourcommunity?
How do we care for the peopleand support one another?
Because we all need one another, we all rely on one another,
right, we rely on one another torespect rules, to obey laws, to
all kinds of stuff, you know.
But, um, yeah, it's in thisidea, like it's just so flipped

(01:11:16):
upside down, how so many peopleare functioning out of awareness
.
You know, lack of awareness isthat they see being sacrificial
with their self, as giving andas generous.
And you know what?
Flip it upside down, do it theother way, right?
So, and I love these, you know,I think, too, a lot of people

(01:11:41):
walk into therapy and they'reanxious or depressed or they've
had some life event that causesthem to show up in my office.
And most people, most peoplecome when they're backed into a
corner.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Right when they can't do it anymore, when they're
stuck, when there's somethingfalling apart, when they're sick
, when they just they need help.
I need help, I gotta go.
But what I think they don'tknow coming in is what they're
about to embark on.
Is not us finding, you know, ananswer for them, like how to

(01:12:16):
fix this.
It's the discovery of becominginto, coming into a relationship
with yourself and in the worldentirely differently.
You know, and if any therapisttells you they're going to
promise you any kind of anoutcome, I highly recommend you

(01:12:39):
don't go to them, because theycan't.
They can guarantee is you'regoing to have a different way of
relating to yourself.
You know you'll have adifferent knowing about yourself
.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
You will have a different awareness about
yourself.
Now, what you do with all ofthat is up to you.
This is your life to live.
And I want to go back tosomething else you were saying,
because that just jogged mymemory of a point I wanted to
make.
That was so important that Iheard earlier on in our

(01:13:15):
conversation, jenny, that thisis one of the things about
Gestalt that is very unique toGestalt, which is taking
responsibility.
Right, so we can have thisawareness and we can have this
recognition, but in order tomake any kind of change, we have

(01:13:37):
to take responsibility forourselves, right for what we're
feeling what we're feeling, whatwe're doing, the choices we're
making, and there's a lot ofwork that goes into learning to
take responsibility forourselves and grow up right Like
that's really the definition ofmaturity is when we parent

(01:14:00):
ourselves, we takeresponsibility, we guide
ourselves through situations, weguide ourselves through
situations, we support ourselvesthrough things.
We nurture ourselves, nourishourselves like that's really the
goal of evolution is to surviveright on our own without that
parent.
That's the goal.
That's how we go on as acivilization, and we're not

(01:14:24):
taught a lot of things about howto do that in a way that
sustain us, sustains us in ahealthy way, or that's going to
provide us with longevity andnot just like longevity of time,
like quantity, but quality,yeah, quality, you know, for
whatever amount of time we getto be here for, you know, for
whatever amount of time we getto be here for, you know, and I

(01:14:48):
think the when you said I feelreally blessed, like I feel so
blessed and this is a newerthing for me, this isn't
something that I was born withwhen I'm about to say this is
this is years and years andyears and years and years of
work and continued work onmyself with a therapist still to
this day.
Yes Of, I can be here with andfor myself and by myself.

(01:15:26):
Yeah, that is enough, that'senough.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
Yeah, a hundred a hundred percent, and it has, it
has to be enough.

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
Anything else after that's just icing on the cake.
Yeah, you know anything else.
That's just dicing on the cake.
Yeah, you know anything else.
So, yeah, uh, I feel sograteful for my many
opportunities to learn in life,because all of my pain, all of
my experiences, all of thethings that caused like the root

(01:16:04):
underneath the depression, theroot underneath the anxiety, the
roots underneath thesedestructive behaviors,
maladaptive functioning that weall do to a degree, going
through all of that gave me anopportunity to learn and to grow
and to expand and to becomemore whole as a person, and not

(01:16:27):
any part of you or me or anyonehas to be rejected.
Yeah, yeah, we can just show upentirely whole.
There's no English equivalent,really, but it is best described
as pattern or taking shape.

(01:16:50):
And what we're reallyinterested in looking at are
these patterns that havedeveloped over time and are they
good?
Do we like them or do you wantto change them?
And how right?
If it's not serving you, thenwhat changes do you want to make

(01:17:11):
?
And it could be a slight changethat makes so much difference.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
Yeah, and that's true .
It doesn't have to be huge.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
It could be the smallest thing and it will be
the smallest thing, and it willbe the smallest thing, and then
it's going to create anothersmall change that you're going
to make.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
And then it's going to stumble.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's building a foundationright One brick at a time,

(01:17:51):
Melissa, that that was very well.
Well, that was very well put um.
Thank you for coming on theshow today and for sharing your
expertise.
I loved having thisconversation with you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
I told you we were gonna see where it goes yeah, I
like to just kind of theaudience knows.
I like to just kind of go withthe flow with this and see like
where we end up.
Listeners, I'm going to put alink in the episode description
to Melissa's website so you canjust take a look at the
information she has on there.

(01:18:17):
I was poking around there.
She has a blog like checkeverything out.
Thank you again for being onthe show.
I greatly appreciate it andlisteners thank you for being
with us today and we will catchyou on the next one, take care.