September 26, 2025 • 25 mins
This episode covers extremely sensitive topics, including violence. Listener discretion is advised. Please prioritize your well-being while listening.
How do you move forward when the foundation of your life story crumbles beneath you? Claudia St John returns to share the aftermath of her father's shocking confession to murdering her grandmother 26 years earlier.
The moment Claudia learned the truth, she knew she would turn her father in to authorities. Yet she took a month to carefully consider the consequences of this decision—a period she describes as "one of the loneliest times of my life." Friends and family offered no guidance until after she'd already acted, when suddenly everyone agreed she'd done the right thing. When prosecutors ultimately decided not to pursue the case against her elderly father, Claudia felt relief that the final decision hadn't rested solely on her shoulders.
Claudia's story is a powerful reminder that vulnerability can be our greatest strength. By sharing our most difficult truths, we not only free ourselves but potentially help others navigate their own impossible situations. As she powerfully states, "In these days of anger and tribalism... forgiveness is an underpinning of everything that we do." Her journey shows us that even in our darkest moments, there remains the possibility of finding peace, meaning, and a renewed sense of purpose.
Guest Bio:
Claudia St. John, SHRM-SCP, SPHR is the Founder and CEO of The Workplace Advisors™, a leading HR consulting and training firm specializing in equipping businesses with the consulting support and people skills they need to grow.
She is an SPHR (Senior Professional in HR), SHRM-SCP (SHRM Senior Certified Professional), and Certified Professional Behavioral Analyst who empowers organizations with evidence-backed insights, so they can navigate the evolving landscape of talent acquisition, engagement, and retention with confidence and foresight. Known as The Workplace Advisor™, she helps organizations zoom out, shift their mindset, and build businesses that lead their industry.
A frequent keynote speaker, Claudia is a regular media contributor on the topic of HR. She wrote the book, Transforming Teams: Tips For Improving Collaboration and Building Trust, a book for leaders that addresses why fundamental breakdowns happen within organizations, and what they can do to correct them.
Claudia holds an Undergraduate degree in Employee Benefits & Labor Relations from The American University and a Master’s degree in Business & Public Administration from The George Washington University, in addition to numerous HR and behavioral science certifications.
Connect with Claudia:
Connect with Theresa and Ivana:
Theresa, True Strategy Consultants: tsc-consultants.com
LinkedIn @treeconti, Insta @tscconsultants
Ivana, Courageous Being: courageousbeing.com
LinkedIn @ivipol, Insta @courbeing
SITP team, Step Into The Pivot: stepintothepivot.com
LinkedIn @step-into-the-pivot, YouTube @StepIntoThePivot
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, everybody, welcome back to this week's
episode of Step Into the Pivot.
We are continuing ourconversation with Claudia St
John.
Two weeks ago, she told us thisstory of how her father
murdered her grandmother andfinally admitted it.
So, claudia, thank you againfor being here and for sharing
(00:24):
your story with us.
We truly appreciate it.
So, claudia, thank you againfor being here and for sharing
your story with us.
We truly appreciate it.
And we'd like to unpack this nowa little bit with you, right to
really talk about that.
So you talked about how youturned him into the police.
How you know they ended updeciding not to prosecute him.
How you know, you found outlater that he had really
suffocated her and moved her,you know, and all those kind of
(00:45):
things, and you know how younever really saw him again after
that.
But can you talk maybe, I don'tknow.
I guess I'd like to start and,evie, I'm sure you'll have some
stuff, but you know what wasreally.
Was it really hard to decide toturn him in?
I kind of get from you that itseemed like it was the right
(01:06):
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, I appreciate that question.
I knew immediately there was noquestion that I was going to
turn him in.
I just right and wrong veryrarely appears so absolutely
clearly in front of you, but theconsequences of acting on right
(01:29):
and wrong can be extraordinary.
And so it took me a month toreally be as intentional as I
could be in making the rightdecision for me, and it was one
of the loneliest times of mylife.
My sister and I my sisterprocesses very differently and
(01:54):
she reached the same conclusionthat I did, but I had reached
that conclusion.
That that moment I knew.
And what's really interesting isthat in that moment, when I was
sharing this information withmy closest friends and the
people I sought out and I askedtheir advice what should I do?
What should I do?
(02:14):
Nobody could give me an answer.
Nobody answered me.
My own husband at the time, nolonger married, but my
ex-husband didn't give me thatanswer.
My ex-husband wanted me not totell anybody, and it wasn't
until I did that everybody said,oh, of course that was the
right thing to do.
(02:35):
But I can tell you, in thatmoment, before I had done it,
there was nobody standing up andsaying here, claudia, this is
the way, and I suppose that'show life goes right In the
hardest decisions.
Maybe people don't feel likethey have any right to make
those decisions for you or to gooffer those opinions, or maybe
(02:56):
they don't know what they woulddo if they were in your shoes.
But everybody after I told thestory said, of course you had to
do that.
And nobody said that to mebefore.
So it was a very.
I knew immediately that I wasgoing to do it, but I needed to
take the time to do it right andto make sure that I wasn't
(03:19):
harming somebody unnecessarily.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, and after 26 years, I think you had the right
to have 30 days to figure outwhat you wanted to do, right?
I mean, we're harder onourselves sometimes, then.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, and the district attorney basically said
the person who suffered themost is dead.
There's nothing you can do tobring that back, and the only
people who are aggrieved by thismurder are us.
So society really wouldn't havebenefited one way or another,
(03:55):
because essentially, he got tolive the rest of his life in
freedom and so I mean, at somelevel society decided to give
him a pass, because societydecided it wasn't worth it to
pursue it.
Yeah, and I'm glad that theydid, because I wouldn't have
(04:16):
wanted his last days to be inprison, and I'm glad that I
didn't make that decision myself.
I'm glad that that was made forus.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
There's so many layers here, so much complexity,
and we've talked about theshocking story of it, and first
of all, I do want to acknowledgewhat an amazing job you're
doing stabilizing yourself,stabilizing your system, your
nervous system.
This must be, even though somesignificant amount of time has
(04:51):
passed, still a big challenge torun this experience through you
consciously and share.
And I'm curious, you know, ifyou'd be willing to talk a
little bit more about the mentalhealth journey aspect of this,
because I'm noticing, as you'resharing, that you said the word
(05:15):
suffering, the person whosuffered the most.
Yes, there is clearly theperson in this story who is the
victim for all intents andpurposes, and as I'm listening,
I'm picturing you in all of theimpossible sets of circumstances
(05:35):
that evolve over time, some ofthe foreshadowing of what is to
come.
When you talk about thevolatility at home and I'm not
asking or encouraging you to gointo any further facts I think
what you laid out in front of ushere is plenty.
I just wanted to acknowledgethat some of the things you're
hinting at we can get a sense of.
(05:57):
You know you suffered a lotthrough all of this.
It's presencing that impossiblesituation you were placed in
when you were asked to.
I don't even know what word Iwant to use here.
Help clean it up and thenreconcile it right.
How do you reconcile all ofthis?
(06:18):
These are the people you love.
These are the people that youare sharing you know DNA with.
These are your ancestors.
These are the folks whose youknow.
Stories shaped you, so I justwanted to honor you.
Know that there's so muchcomplexity here, and would you
(06:39):
help us understand that a littlebit more?
How are you staying healthythrough all of this?
Understand that a little bitmore.
How are you staying healthythrough all of this?
How are you taking care ofyourself?
What have you been doing tomake sense of it all?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I appreciate.
I appreciate that that question, um, what I lost the minute
that my father confessed wasn'tjust my relationship with him
and my image of him.
(07:12):
What I lost was a childhoodthat was entirely a fabrication
of my own making.
My sister and I were the onlysiblings.
She was raised.
She had such mental healthProblems her whole life she's
older than I am Suffered fromdepression her whole her entire
(07:34):
life.
And there was a wonderful bookcalled the Daughters of
Narcissistic Mothers, I think isthe name of it, and it
basically said you're one of twothings You're high functioning
or you're a disaster.
There's really no middle ground, and my sister and I are
(07:56):
exhibits of that.
What I realize is that, from mytiniest, tiniest person, when I
was scared or harmed or put ina way that was dangerous or
cruel, I whitewashed it, I madeit okay.
(08:19):
I made it okay and everythingwas fine, and it was as if in
that moment, all of my scalesfell from my eyes and I was able
to really mourn what I, as achild, had been through.
I never saw myself as a victim,never once.
I never saw myself as a childof abuse or of cruelty.
(08:44):
And yet now I see that Iabsolutely was, and it was such
a relief for my sister becauseshe was finally able to be seen
and felt, because she wasfeeling all of it as we were
going through it and I was justsmiling and being cute and
agreeable.
So I've never had depression.
(09:09):
I have not had any mentalhealth problems in my life, as
opposed to my sister.
I got to enjoy them in my 50s.
I got to enjoy them when myfather confessed and I knew well
enough to go immediately intotherapy and I had incredible
(09:32):
therapy PTSD therapy, emdrtherapy, which is an eye
movement therapy.
I don't exactly know how itworks, but it worked for me very
well and I had to relearnpatterns of behavior that in
(09:53):
themselves led to the end of mymarriage and to some changes
that I hadn't anticipated.
But I had been living a fallacythat was really one designed to
make everybody else around mehappy and comfortable, and I had
never even it had never evenoccurred to me that I was
(10:18):
unhappy.
I didn't even know I wasunhappy until I all of a sudden
looked around and thought wait aminute, who are these people?
What is this?
Where am I?
It's a very slowly unveiling,shocking realization.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I just want to mention that word that you were
starting with, which is you knowit's just contextualize this a
little bit that is resilience.
You know you were in a in anactive way figuring out how to,
best you know, protect yourselfunder extremely dire
circumstances and sometimes, youknow, we don't know what we're
doing, but that's what it is.
(10:55):
So, yeah, oh my gosh, so muchthat we could talk about here.
Go ahead, teresa.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So I think my question, claudia and you know
I'm sure you've thought aboutthis and maybe you've even
worked through it in therapy butdo you kind of wish he had
never told you that, you neverknew the truth?
Do you think that would have?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
changed.
I'm glad he told me.
I'm glad he told me and mysister and I, when we get
together, we talk about this,all of our family's like, oh my
gosh, the girls are gettingtogether again.
This is like, let's leave themalone, lock them in a room for a
few days.
I wouldn't give it up foranything, because, in the end, I
(11:37):
would rather not be lied to.
I'd rather not be living afiction, and I would rather not
be lied to.
I'd rather not be living afiction.
I'd rather not be living afiction.
That is not in my own bestinterest.
And I do have one final storyon it, and that is that my
father died in 2021 on EasterSunday.
I am not a religious person andthere's a reason why I'm
(11:59):
bringing this up.
I'm not a religious person.
I was never raised in a church,was not baptized, was not
confirmed nothing like literallynothing.
And my father's favoriteholiday was Easter and I had not
seen him or spoken to him.
I had not seen him in sevenyears, I had not spoken to him
in five, and I woke up on EasterSunday and thought I need to
(12:23):
see my father, I need to go seedaddy, and he was living about
four hours away.
I hadn't been in contact withhim at all and so he was in a
nursing home and so I got somecandies and some of his favorite
treats he was 96 at this pointand I brought them with me up to
(12:43):
the nursing home.
Everybody was very nervous thatI was there.
I had to drive three hoursthrough no cell coverage,
through the Adirondack Mountains, and I got there and my mother
was with him.
I was not speaking to her, Iwas hiding from her.
After she left, I went in to gosee him and the nurses told me
(13:04):
that he had been sleeping.
He was not awake.
They had moved him back to hisdorm, to his room, and he was
had not really been awake allday, and they asked me if I
wanted them to bring him out tosee me and I said no, I don't
want to disturb him and Ihaven't seen him in seven years
(13:27):
and it could be a shock.
Would you just tell him hisdaughter, claudia, was here and
give him these treats.
And they said that they would,and I went and sat outside of
the nursing home and I thoughtwhy am?
Why am I here?
Like?
Why did I?
It was like a moth to a flame,like I had not just drawn there.
(13:47):
And after about 20 minutes Ijust felt this release and I
thought well, whatever I've comehere to do, I've done.
And I drove all the way homeand when I got home my sister
called me and asked if I washome and I said I was, and she
told me that dad had died andthat he had died at 1235 while I
(14:10):
was sitting on that benchoutside of his nursing home.
So I don't understand the waysof the world, but I know that
has given me great peace, knowthat has given me great peace.
I feel like he needed me there.
I was there.
You never really know how thesethings go.
So I don't regret it.
I don't even regret, I mean I'msaddened by it, but I am in
(14:35):
such a good place and I havesuch joy in my life and I have
so much more gratitude than Iever had because I think when
you really, you can't see howbeautiful it is out unless you
have a really rainy day.
You know.
Sure, there's songs made forthat, but it's the juxtaposition
that makes it all seem so muchmore precious to me so you
(14:59):
talked about the feeling some ofthat peace.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
You talked about release just now with this story
.
I also liked that you werepointing out that, like you
don't understand, I don't knowhow this worked.
I don't know what it was thatcalled me there, I don't know
what it was that I was tuninginto, but I know that I did feel
the release and I did feel thepeace and I can still have joy
after all of this and there canbe gratitude and you know I'm
(15:25):
just picturing you and yoursister in these moments of
reconnecting and talking andbeing now, you know, unburdened
by the, by the lies and thepretense.
Tell us a little bit more abouthow, talking about it and
sharing your story as like youare right now, how does that
help?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
The night that my father confessed.
And again, zero religion.
I have never read the Bible.
I barely listen to gospel music.
I have nothing.
I have no foundation inreligion at all.
The night that my fatherconfessed, I lay in bed all
night.
Obviously, I didn't sleep andtwo words just kept rolling
(16:11):
around in my head forgivenessand grace.
And I didn't even really knowwhat these words meant, but they
haunted me.
I got home in the month after Isaw my father.
(16:33):
I would climb out of bed in themiddle of the night and Google
what does forgiveness mean?
How do you forgive?
What is grace?
Why Just these concepts that tothis day, I don't know.
I don't know why they came tome.
I didn't ask for them, I wasn'tlooking for them.
(17:03):
Forgiveness is the act ofletting go of negative feelings
of harm towards somebody who'sharmed you.
It's not about forgetting.
It's not about condoning.
It's not about re-engaging thatperson in your life.
It's not about giving themsomething.
It's not for them.
It's simply saying themsomething.
It's not for them, it's simplysaying this is a pain so painful
(17:24):
that I can.
I can set it aside and moveforward, because carrying
resentment and carrying angerand carrying a desire for
revenge and carrying victimhoodand carrying all of the things
that go with it were exhaustingto me and my sister couldn't put
(17:50):
that down.
My sister could not forgive.
So a lot of our conversationswere around this concept of
forgiveness because she resentedme for being able to let it go,
and it wasn't until I developedthis keynote go.
(18:14):
And it wasn't until I developedthis keynote and she heard the
keynote that she now feels thatshe can.
So now we can say we canrevisit our pain and our loss
and our.
You know, we always ask eachother how do we end up so normal
, how do you?
Because my mother, as well as asociopath I mean, we have, we,
but they're both, both of themthey're he was the good one of
(18:35):
the two, let's put it that wayand she's still living right
down the road from here.
But, um, we will revisit that.
But really it is this conceptof having the grace for yourself
is I just have to let it go.
That's how I'm able to enjoy.
(19:30):
All that I'm able to enjoy nowis because I don't walk around
with all of the negativity thatthat being really deeply hurt by
somebody can carry.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, what I mean.
You know this is not the firsttime I've heard this story and
every time, but I love whatwe've talked about, how that is.
One of the final questions wealways ask is how is this pivot,
a step forward?
And I think you really answeredthat already in a lot of ways.
Right With the forgiveness andthose.
Any final thoughts, anythingthat you would like to add to
(20:03):
this just incredible story?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Just incredible story , I think the most important
piece for me and I'm going topivot into a professional
environment, professional realm.
In these days of anger andtribalism and hostility and
aggression and incivility andjust these are tough times and
(20:35):
being vulnerable can be a gift.
Sharing your stories and yourchallenges can be empowering to
others and when I think aboutthose essential human skills
that we're all going to needmore of going forward, things
like emotional intelligence andservant leadership and
(20:59):
navigating conflict and activelistening and all of those tools
that we, as leaders, need, Idon't think you can have any of
them without forgiveness, and Ireally want people to see that
forgiveness is an underpinningof everything that we do and
(21:19):
it's not just, it doesn't justexist in therapist offices or in
churches, it's everywhere and Ijust hope people in their
darkest days can see that it'salso the opportunity to see
something brand new and knowthat it's going to be okay.
I mean, it really is going tobe okay.
(21:40):
I think it's always going to beokay.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, thank you, therefore, for that exploration
of something that feels likeimpossible to forgive, because
if you can do it, using thisexample and showcase that you
are, it seems to me like you'renot losing your hope in the
goodness of the world.
And if you can do it underthese circumstances, it's really
(22:06):
you know.
It does behoove the rest of usto consider it too, and I love
your exploration of forgiveness.
Talking about you know, really,the way I hear it, it's you're
able to now, you know, releaseyourself from that toxicity
Releasing.
So there is a letting go, butreally in that letting go, for
(22:28):
me the emphasis is on youfreeing yourself from the
shackles of that impossibleentanglement.
So, wow, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
And if it were hard to do, I can tell you I wouldn't
have done it.
I'm not a seeker out of hardthings to do.
I just realized it was likeshoving a boulder off my back
and it happened very easily andI don't think it's as hard as
people realize, because it'sjust what you do for yourself.
(23:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Well, thank you so much, Claudia, for sharing this
story.
I know it's not always easy toshare these.
I know that you feel that thereis a benefit to sharing your
story and there definitely is,from my standpoint, although
that doesn't still mean thatit's easy for you to do.
So we really appreciate youcoming on here and sharing your
story with our listeners, ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
It is my pleasure and my honor and I'm grateful for
it.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for being so kind and gentle
with me.
It's a scary thing, but youmade it so thank you for that,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Thank you All right To our listeners.
Thank you again for being here,for listening and remember if
you have a pivot step into it.
All right, everybody, welcome back to this week's
episode of Step Into the Pivot.
We are continuing ourconversation with Claudia St
John.
Two weeks ago, she told us thisstory of how her father
murdered her grandmother andfinally admitted it.
So, claudia, thank you againfor being here and for sharing
(00:24):
your story with us.
We truly appreciate it.
So, claudia, thank you againfor being here and for sharing
your story with us.
We truly appreciate it.
And we'd like to unpack this nowa little bit with you, right to
really talk about that.
So you talked about how youturned him into the police.
How you know they ended updeciding not to prosecute him.
How you know, you found outlater that he had really
suffocated her and moved her,you know, and all those kind of
(00:45):
things, and you know how younever really saw him again after
that.
But can you talk maybe, I don'tknow.
I guess I'd like to start and,evie, I'm sure you'll have some
stuff, but you know what wasreally.
Was it really hard to decide toturn him in?
I kind of get from you that itseemed like it was the right
(01:06):
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, I appreciate that question.
I knew immediately there was noquestion that I was going to
turn him in.
I just right and wrong veryrarely appears so absolutely
clearly in front of you, but theconsequences of acting on right
(01:29):
and wrong can be extraordinary.
And so it took me a month toreally be as intentional as I
could be in making the rightdecision for me, and it was one
of the loneliest times of mylife.
My sister and I my sisterprocesses very differently and
(01:54):
she reached the same conclusionthat I did, but I had reached
that conclusion.
That that moment I knew.
And what's really interesting isthat in that moment, when I was
sharing this information withmy closest friends and the
people I sought out and I askedtheir advice what should I do?
What should I do?
(02:14):
Nobody could give me an answer.
Nobody answered me.
My own husband at the time, nolonger married, but my
ex-husband didn't give me thatanswer.
My ex-husband wanted me not totell anybody, and it wasn't
until I did that everybody said,oh, of course that was the
right thing to do.
(02:35):
But I can tell you, in thatmoment, before I had done it,
there was nobody standing up andsaying here, claudia, this is
the way, and I suppose that'show life goes right In the
hardest decisions.
Maybe people don't feel likethey have any right to make
those decisions for you or to gooffer those opinions, or maybe
(02:56):
they don't know what they woulddo if they were in your shoes.
But everybody after I told thestory said, of course you had to
do that.
And nobody said that to mebefore.
So it was a very.
I knew immediately that I wasgoing to do it, but I needed to
take the time to do it right andto make sure that I wasn't
(03:19):
harming somebody unnecessarily.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, and after 26 years, I think you had the right
to have 30 days to figure outwhat you wanted to do, right?
I mean, we're harder onourselves sometimes, then.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, and the district attorney basically said
the person who suffered themost is dead.
There's nothing you can do tobring that back, and the only
people who are aggrieved by thismurder are us.
So society really wouldn't havebenefited one way or another,
(03:55):
because essentially, he got tolive the rest of his life in
freedom and so I mean, at somelevel society decided to give
him a pass, because societydecided it wasn't worth it to
pursue it.
Yeah, and I'm glad that theydid, because I wouldn't have
(04:16):
wanted his last days to be inprison, and I'm glad that I
didn't make that decision myself.
I'm glad that that was made forus.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
There's so many layers here, so much complexity,
and we've talked about theshocking story of it, and first
of all, I do want to acknowledgewhat an amazing job you're
doing stabilizing yourself,stabilizing your system, your
nervous system.
This must be, even though somesignificant amount of time has
(04:51):
passed, still a big challenge torun this experience through you
consciously and share.
And I'm curious, you know, ifyou'd be willing to talk a
little bit more about the mentalhealth journey aspect of this,
because I'm noticing, as you'resharing, that you said the word
(05:15):
suffering, the person whosuffered the most.
Yes, there is clearly theperson in this story who is the
victim for all intents andpurposes, and as I'm listening,
I'm picturing you in all of theimpossible sets of circumstances
(05:35):
that evolve over time, some ofthe foreshadowing of what is to
come.
When you talk about thevolatility at home and I'm not
asking or encouraging you to gointo any further facts I think
what you laid out in front of ushere is plenty.
I just wanted to acknowledgethat some of the things you're
hinting at we can get a sense of.
(05:57):
You know you suffered a lotthrough all of this.
It's presencing that impossiblesituation you were placed in
when you were asked to.
I don't even know what word Iwant to use here.
Help clean it up and thenreconcile it right.
How do you reconcile all ofthis?
(06:18):
These are the people you love.
These are the people that youare sharing you know DNA with.
These are your ancestors.
These are the folks whose youknow.
Stories shaped you, so I justwanted to honor you.
Know that there's so muchcomplexity here, and would you
(06:39):
help us understand that a littlebit more?
How are you staying healthythrough all of this?
Understand that a little bitmore.
How are you staying healthythrough all of this?
How are you taking care ofyourself?
What have you been doing tomake sense of it all?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I appreciate.
I appreciate that that question, um, what I lost the minute
that my father confessed wasn'tjust my relationship with him
and my image of him.
(07:12):
What I lost was a childhoodthat was entirely a fabrication
of my own making.
My sister and I were the onlysiblings.
She was raised.
She had such mental healthProblems her whole life she's
older than I am Suffered fromdepression her whole her entire
(07:34):
life.
And there was a wonderful bookcalled the Daughters of
Narcissistic Mothers, I think isthe name of it, and it
basically said you're one of twothings You're high functioning
or you're a disaster.
There's really no middle ground, and my sister and I are
(07:56):
exhibits of that.
What I realize is that, from mytiniest, tiniest person, when I
was scared or harmed or put ina way that was dangerous or
cruel, I whitewashed it, I madeit okay.
(08:19):
I made it okay and everythingwas fine, and it was as if in
that moment, all of my scalesfell from my eyes and I was able
to really mourn what I, as achild, had been through.
I never saw myself as a victim,never once.
I never saw myself as a childof abuse or of cruelty.
(08:44):
And yet now I see that Iabsolutely was, and it was such
a relief for my sister becauseshe was finally able to be seen
and felt, because she wasfeeling all of it as we were
going through it and I was justsmiling and being cute and
agreeable.
So I've never had depression.
(09:09):
I have not had any mentalhealth problems in my life, as
opposed to my sister.
I got to enjoy them in my 50s.
I got to enjoy them when myfather confessed and I knew well
enough to go immediately intotherapy and I had incredible
(09:32):
therapy PTSD therapy, emdrtherapy, which is an eye
movement therapy.
I don't exactly know how itworks, but it worked for me very
well and I had to relearnpatterns of behavior that in
(09:53):
themselves led to the end of mymarriage and to some changes
that I hadn't anticipated.
But I had been living a fallacythat was really one designed to
make everybody else around mehappy and comfortable, and I had
never even it had never evenoccurred to me that I was
(10:18):
unhappy.
I didn't even know I wasunhappy until I all of a sudden
looked around and thought wait aminute, who are these people?
What is this?
Where am I?
It's a very slowly unveiling,shocking realization.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I just want to mention that word that you were
starting with, which is you knowit's just contextualize this a
little bit that is resilience.
You know you were in a in anactive way figuring out how to,
best you know, protect yourselfunder extremely dire
circumstances and sometimes, youknow, we don't know what we're
doing, but that's what it is.
(10:55):
So, yeah, oh my gosh, so muchthat we could talk about here.
Go ahead, teresa.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So I think my question, claudia and you know
I'm sure you've thought aboutthis and maybe you've even
worked through it in therapy butdo you kind of wish he had
never told you that, you neverknew the truth?
Do you think that would have?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
changed.
I'm glad he told me.
I'm glad he told me and mysister and I, when we get
together, we talk about this,all of our family's like, oh my
gosh, the girls are gettingtogether again.
This is like, let's leave themalone, lock them in a room for a
few days.
I wouldn't give it up foranything, because, in the end, I
(11:37):
would rather not be lied to.
I'd rather not be living afiction, and I would rather not
be lied to.
I'd rather not be living afiction.
I'd rather not be living afiction.
That is not in my own bestinterest.
And I do have one final storyon it, and that is that my
father died in 2021 on EasterSunday.
I am not a religious person andthere's a reason why I'm
(11:59):
bringing this up.
I'm not a religious person.
I was never raised in a church,was not baptized, was not
confirmed nothing like literallynothing.
And my father's favoriteholiday was Easter and I had not
seen him or spoken to him.
I had not seen him in sevenyears, I had not spoken to him
in five, and I woke up on EasterSunday and thought I need to
(12:23):
see my father, I need to go seedaddy, and he was living about
four hours away.
I hadn't been in contact withhim at all and so he was in a
nursing home and so I got somecandies and some of his favorite
treats he was 96 at this pointand I brought them with me up to
(12:43):
the nursing home.
Everybody was very nervous thatI was there.
I had to drive three hoursthrough no cell coverage,
through the Adirondack Mountains, and I got there and my mother
was with him.
I was not speaking to her, Iwas hiding from her.
After she left, I went in to gosee him and the nurses told me
(13:04):
that he had been sleeping.
He was not awake.
They had moved him back to hisdorm, to his room, and he was
had not really been awake allday, and they asked me if I
wanted them to bring him out tosee me and I said no, I don't
want to disturb him and Ihaven't seen him in seven years
(13:27):
and it could be a shock.
Would you just tell him hisdaughter, claudia, was here and
give him these treats.
And they said that they would,and I went and sat outside of
the nursing home and I thoughtwhy am?
Why am I here?
Like?
Why did I?
It was like a moth to a flame,like I had not just drawn there.
(13:47):
And after about 20 minutes Ijust felt this release and I
thought well, whatever I've comehere to do, I've done.
And I drove all the way homeand when I got home my sister
called me and asked if I washome and I said I was, and she
told me that dad had died andthat he had died at 1235 while I
(14:10):
was sitting on that benchoutside of his nursing home.
So I don't understand the waysof the world, but I know that
has given me great peace, knowthat has given me great peace.
I feel like he needed me there.
I was there.
You never really know how thesethings go.
So I don't regret it.
I don't even regret, I mean I'msaddened by it, but I am in
(14:35):
such a good place and I havesuch joy in my life and I have
so much more gratitude than Iever had because I think when
you really, you can't see howbeautiful it is out unless you
have a really rainy day.
You know.
Sure, there's songs made forthat, but it's the juxtaposition
that makes it all seem so muchmore precious to me so you
(14:59):
talked about the feeling some ofthat peace.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
You talked about release just now with this story
.
I also liked that you werepointing out that, like you
don't understand, I don't knowhow this worked.
I don't know what it was thatcalled me there, I don't know
what it was that I was tuninginto, but I know that I did feel
the release and I did feel thepeace and I can still have joy
after all of this and there canbe gratitude and you know I'm
(15:25):
just picturing you and yoursister in these moments of
reconnecting and talking andbeing now, you know, unburdened
by the, by the lies and thepretense.
Tell us a little bit more abouthow, talking about it and
sharing your story as like youare right now, how does that
help?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
The night that my father confessed.
And again, zero religion.
I have never read the Bible.
I barely listen to gospel music.
I have nothing.
I have no foundation inreligion at all.
The night that my fatherconfessed, I lay in bed all
night.
Obviously, I didn't sleep andtwo words just kept rolling
(16:11):
around in my head forgivenessand grace.
And I didn't even really knowwhat these words meant, but they
haunted me.
I got home in the month after Isaw my father.
(16:33):
I would climb out of bed in themiddle of the night and Google
what does forgiveness mean?
How do you forgive?
What is grace?
Why Just these concepts that tothis day, I don't know.
I don't know why they came tome.
I didn't ask for them, I wasn'tlooking for them.
(17:03):
Forgiveness is the act ofletting go of negative feelings
of harm towards somebody who'sharmed you.
It's not about forgetting.
It's not about condoning.
It's not about re-engaging thatperson in your life.
It's not about giving themsomething.
It's not for them.
It's simply saying themsomething.
It's not for them, it's simplysaying this is a pain so painful
(17:24):
that I can.
I can set it aside and moveforward, because carrying
resentment and carrying angerand carrying a desire for
revenge and carrying victimhoodand carrying all of the things
that go with it were exhaustingto me and my sister couldn't put
(17:50):
that down.
My sister could not forgive.
So a lot of our conversationswere around this concept of
forgiveness because she resentedme for being able to let it go,
and it wasn't until I developedthis keynote go.
(18:14):
And it wasn't until I developedthis keynote and she heard the
keynote that she now feels thatshe can.
So now we can say we canrevisit our pain and our loss
and our.
You know, we always ask eachother how do we end up so normal
, how do you?
Because my mother, as well as asociopath I mean, we have, we,
but they're both, both of themthey're he was the good one of
(18:35):
the two, let's put it that wayand she's still living right
down the road from here.
But, um, we will revisit that.
But really it is this conceptof having the grace for yourself
is I just have to let it go.
That's how I'm able to enjoy.
(19:30):
All that I'm able to enjoy nowis because I don't walk around
with all of the negativity thatthat being really deeply hurt by
somebody can carry.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, what I mean.
You know this is not the firsttime I've heard this story and
every time, but I love whatwe've talked about, how that is.
One of the final questions wealways ask is how is this pivot,
a step forward?
And I think you really answeredthat already in a lot of ways.
Right With the forgiveness andthose.
Any final thoughts, anythingthat you would like to add to
(20:03):
this just incredible story?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Just incredible story , I think the most important
piece for me and I'm going topivot into a professional
environment, professional realm.
In these days of anger andtribalism and hostility and
aggression and incivility andjust these are tough times and
(20:35):
being vulnerable can be a gift.
Sharing your stories and yourchallenges can be empowering to
others and when I think aboutthose essential human skills
that we're all going to needmore of going forward, things
like emotional intelligence andservant leadership and
(20:59):
navigating conflict and activelistening and all of those tools
that we, as leaders, need, Idon't think you can have any of
them without forgiveness, and Ireally want people to see that
forgiveness is an underpinningof everything that we do and
(21:19):
it's not just, it doesn't justexist in therapist offices or in
churches, it's everywhere and Ijust hope people in their
darkest days can see that it'salso the opportunity to see
something brand new and knowthat it's going to be okay.
I mean, it really is going tobe okay.
(21:40):
I think it's always going to beokay.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, thank you, therefore, for that exploration
of something that feels likeimpossible to forgive, because
if you can do it, using thisexample and showcase that you
are, it seems to me like you'renot losing your hope in the
goodness of the world.
And if you can do it underthese circumstances, it's really
(22:06):
you know.
It does behoove the rest of usto consider it too, and I love
your exploration of forgiveness.
Talking about you know, really,the way I hear it, it's you're
able to now, you know, releaseyourself from that toxicity
Releasing.
So there is a letting go, butreally in that letting go, for
(22:28):
me the emphasis is on youfreeing yourself from the
shackles of that impossibleentanglement.
So, wow, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
And if it were hard to do, I can tell you I wouldn't
have done it.
I'm not a seeker out of hardthings to do.
I just realized it was likeshoving a boulder off my back
and it happened very easily andI don't think it's as hard as
people realize, because it'sjust what you do for yourself.
(23:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Well, thank you so much, Claudia, for sharing this
story.
I know it's not always easy toshare these.
I know that you feel that thereis a benefit to sharing your
story and there definitely is,from my standpoint, although
that doesn't still mean thatit's easy for you to do.
So we really appreciate youcoming on here and sharing your
story with our listeners, ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
It is my pleasure and my honor and I'm grateful for
it.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for being so kind and gentle
with me.
It's a scary thing, but youmade it so thank you for that,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Thank you All right To our listeners.
Thank you again for being here,for listening and remember if
you have a pivot step into it.
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