November 1, 2024 • 23 mins
What happens when life throws you a curveball? In today's episode of "Step Into the Pivot," we are joined by the inspiring Dr. Elizabeth Grill, a health psychologist and medical researcher who shares her journey through the tumultuous waters of divorce and family court battles. Dr. Grill opens up about the survival mode mindset that took over during these challenging times, and the crucial role a strong support system played in her resilience.
Imagine suddenly finding yourself as a full-time parent without financial stability or childcare support. A life-altering court decision propelled Elizabeth into immediate problem-solving mode, eventually resulting in personal growth and the birth of new business ideas. It's a story of resilience and innovation, where channeling energy into positive pursuits not only restored confidence but also inspired others along the way. “By listening to empowering narratives during my daily commutes, I found purpose and motivation amid adversity, reinforcing the belief that every challenge can be an opportunity in disguise.”
Guest Bio:
Dr. Elizabeth Grill is the Director of psychological services at the Ronald O. Perelman and Claudia Cohen Center for Reproductive Medicine and is Associate Professor of Clinical Psychology in the Departments of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Reproductive Medicine, and Psychiatry at Weill Cornell Medicine. She is also an Assistant Attending Psychologist at New York-Presbyterian Hospital.
Dr. Grill is established as a nationally recognized expert and innovator in reproductive and sexual mental health. She is the current Chair of RESOLVE, the National Infertility Patient Organization, the Past Chair of the Mental Health Professional Group of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine and the Past President of the Society for Sex Therapy and Research.
Dr. Grill is experienced as a health psychologist and medical researcher with a special focus on the emotional aspects of infertility, IVF treatment, third party reproduction, oncofertility, fertility preservation, sexual dysfunction, and stress and infertility. She is also the co-owner of FertiCalm and FertiStrong, the first digital apps developed to reduce distress for those experiencing infertility, using research proven modalities.
Dr. Grill is an editorial reviewer for the top peer reviewed journals in the field, the author of numerous articles and book chapters, has lectured worldwide to patient and medical audiences and has participated in media interviews related to the emotional aspects of reproductive medicine.
Connect with Elizabeth:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drlizgrill/
Connect with Theresa and Ivana:
Theresa, True Strategy Consultants: tsc-consultants.com
LinkedIn @treeconti, Insta @tscconsultants
Ivana, Courageous Being: courageousbeing.com
LinkedIn @ivipol, Insta @courbeing
SITP team, Step Into The Pivot: stepintothepivot.com
LinkedIn @step-into-the-pivot, YouTube @StepIntoThePivot
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
Today we're very happy to haveDr Elizabeth Grill.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
We are new friends, so I'mhappy to have you here.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nice to meet you.
Thank you for being here withus.
First experience that I've hadof you was here is someone who
is, at the same time, showing upto improve people's lives,
women's lives, in the realm ofboth psychological but then also
sexual, reproductive health,wellness, well-being.
(00:35):
Here's a health psychologistand a medical researcher and
someone who is able tocommunicate about it through a
variety of formats you speak,you write, you interview, you're
an interviewee.
You are just so versatile andstill probably the thing I'd
(00:56):
highlight the most is likefriendly and fun approachable
and just you know, it's always ajoy to interact with you,
approachable and just you know,it's always a joy to interact
with you.
And one of the ways in which wefirst started, you know,
knowing and thinking about eachother is because we were going
through a similar pivot aroundthe same time.
So not maybe exactly the samemoment, but we share a divorce
(01:23):
experience where we had tonavigate the court system while
being well mothers, right, ofkids who were relatively small
at the time when we were walkingthrough divorce.
So using that as a bridge andwe could, with you, talk about
so many different topics, butlet's just go there.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Obviously, divorce is one of the life crises that
people go through.
It's listed as one of the topstressors with the death of a
loved one or, you know, gettingcancer.
So we know that it it impactspeople greatly.
Um, I think, like you may havefelt the same way when you're in
it.
You're just sort of putting onefoot in front of the other.
So I don't think you're likeaware of that so much because
you're in survival mode and youhave kids to take care of and
finances to figure out andwhatnot.
(02:10):
So that's pretty much where Iwas was just survival mode,
getting through it.
Um, I think there's somethinginstinctual that just kicks in
that people used to say like Idon't know how you do it.
I don't know, know, and I usedto.
My answer always used to belike what's the alternative?
You know to like crawl underthe covers and never come out,
which some people do if they'resuffering in that way, and then
(02:30):
hopefully they get the help theyneed.
But I didn't really see anyother option but to just keep
you know.
Moving on, I had a great supportsystem of friends.
I have an amazing career that Ilove and I'm so passionate
about, so that definitely helpedas a fallback.
But the kids were young.
You know, my kids were young.
I think my daughter was stillin diapers when I divorced.
So it was a brave decisionLooking back, definitely the
(02:52):
best decision I ever made at thetime.
You know you question thatbecause there's so much riding
on it when you have young kidsand this, this misnomer of like
wait till the kids are older incollege, just stick it out and
then leave, and that theresearch doesn't necessarily
show that that's the rightdecision either.
But you know, when you're in itand you've got young kids, you
feel like you're about to riptheir lives apart.
(03:13):
It's hard but in the long run,definitely you know best, best
decision.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, for me it was one of the big experiences,
without really quite having thelanguage for it, of just being
forced to, encouraged, nudgedand sometimes just like really
pushed to accept the moment andrealizing that none of the you
know thinking around like can'tbelieve this is happening.
I can't believe this ishappening.
(03:41):
I can't believe what I'm seeingLike that wasn't serving anyone
.
Can't believe this is happening.
I can't believe what I'm seeingit like that that wasn't
serving anyone.
Right Starting with my owninner you know, ability to just
show up for what was happeningand be able to deal with it with
peace and calm.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I mean, I think my bigger pivotwas probably post-divorce not
necessarily going through themoments of divorce, but we had a
very brutal kind of like sixyears post-divorce in the court
system.
So I think the true trauma youknow, I know the word is used
(04:15):
loosely these days, but itreally I think was very
traumatic going through thepost-divorce, feeling like, okay
, the paperwork was finallysigned, now we can get on with
our lives.
And then very quickly realizingthat that necessarily wasn't
going to be the case.
Um, the courts are traumatizing.
You know it's no place for thecourts, don't know how to make
best decisions for kids or forfamilies.
(04:36):
And I think there's thisfantasy that when you wind up in
the court system, somehowjustice will be served.
And I found it even morefrustrating when, like friends
would say, but how could thispossibly be happening?
I mean, it's just so obvious,how could the judge not see it?
So it's like re-traumatizing,right.
And then your community aroundyou is also traumatized by it
and saying, but how could thisbe?
And you're like, well, it justis right.
(04:57):
So I found that to be much moredepleting actually was coming
to the realization that thecourts were not going to solve
this in any kind of equitableway.
That felt like justice wasbeing served.
Um, and then the really sort ofmoment I know you wanted to talk
about, the moment where youreally think, feel like things
(05:18):
shifted, you know, in my lifewas much after that.
It was six years later when acourt decision did not go in his
way and he wound up leaving thecountry and with the idea that
he would sort of tell me whatthe needs were and if I didn't
meet those needs, he wasn'tgoing to be coming back.
(05:39):
And so I was met one morning inSeptember, as I was getting my
kids ready for school, with thisemail that basically said I
purchased a one way ticket outof the country.
I'm never going to listen towhat the courts are telling me
to do.
So you have a choice you caneither meet these demands or I'm
not coming back.
So that was really the pivotalmoment in my life because it was
like 7 am in September.
one morning just waking up to anormal morning morning, just
(06:00):
waking up to a normal morning,and you see, like your life pass
in front of you, like, oh myGod, all of a sudden, every
other weekend is no longer everyother weekend without your kids
.
There's no break.
You know you're going to be afull-time parent.
You don't have childcare inplace to solve that problem
right now.
You, you know you won't havesummer vacations off.
Like, all of a sudden, you'refaced with the reality of this
(06:23):
is is this really happening?
Is this real?
So I think that was the momentfor me where I really see this
division in like life before andlife after, if that makes sense
.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, it totally makes sense and how so?
So you know, and I think thathappens a lot more than you
think, right, it's, it's kind ofsad that that somebody would
just walk away from their kids.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Talk about from your standpoint right.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
It's kind of sad that somebody would just walk away
from their kids.
Talk about, from yourstandpoint right, how that then
moved you to the next phase,right Into your own personal
growth, your own you know mentalstate, your own emotional
health right.
How did you use that for thepositive, because I know you did
so yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
So you know when the shock wears off and you're like,
oh my gosh.
And you know everything was cutoff financially too.
So it was like I'm leaving thecountry.
I've cut off everythingfinancial.
There's no child support,there's no childcare right.
So it's like wow, um.
And went into immediate problemsolving mode of figuring out
childcare solutions so I couldcontinue working, and what I was
(07:26):
going to need called in sort ofmy support system to say hey, I
need you, here's what's goingon.
And you know they all ralliedand they're like I'm there
whatever you need.
And then I think it was monthsafter that, when I eased into
this sort of new routine, that Irealized that the energy I was
spending on the court system Iwas representing myself believe
(07:48):
it or not, I had fired all mylawyers, it was spending, you
know, I was making them richerto buy their second homes in the
Hamptons while I was not beingable to pay grocery bills.
So it was like this somethingabout this is not working you
know, so I represented myselfwith no law degree and that took
a tremendous amount of energyand it was all exhausting and
negative.
(08:08):
And you know, I was sittingthere cross examining my
ex-husband and his with hislawyer, and I was sitting there
alone in this courtroom bymyself representing myself,
fighting for my kids.
So I think once that wasremoved, like all of that stress
and negativity and energy, I'dbe up late at night writing
(08:29):
motions and cross-examinationquestions.
Um, I was left with space againto heal and to allow creativity
come back.
And so it happened, sort oforganically.
You know that all of a suddenthere were there were just these
spaces inside of mine andstarted finding solutions to
(09:11):
supplementing what I neededfinancially, that I wasn't
getting in child support anymoreRight, coming up with creative
business ideas.
I mean, we would joke that wewere just two shrinks who all of
a sudden had to learn how tolike form an LLC and get an
attorney and trademark rights,and you know, the learning curve
was tremendous.
But here we were, we were justdoing it.
You know, just all the ways thatpeople say like, oh well, you
(09:32):
can never do that, or you don'thave that background, or you
know, you've never developed anapp before, you're not a tech
person, or you're not this andwe just did it.
You know, we licensed our appsto pharmaceutical companies and
and suddenly that fuels yourself-confidence, self-esteem,
and you start to realize like,wow, look at all this, like
positive energy flowing in thatwas being sucked out before,
(09:55):
when my focus was on likefighting the fight rather than
going on living life Right.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yes, because you know , like, if I'm just thinking
about what you were goingthrough, tactically speaking,
we're talking about a lot ofhours, like physical hours, even
just picturing you in some formof commute, getting to these
locations where you have torepresent yourself, like, let
alone those, you know, latenights that you were talking
about.
So lots of hours.
But I feel like what you'rehighlighting is really that the
(10:24):
biggest decluttering and theopening of the space was
happening on an internal leveland, uh, and that's really where
the you know availabilitystarted to come through when you
were you know.
Yeah, I'm really expressing someof your creativity.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I think you know every commute.
I would listen to positivepodcasts about how people kind
of rose up from the ashes andlike survival stories and how
people like hit rock bottom andthen climbed out, and I would
almost use it to brainwash mythoughts thing in my car or in
(11:04):
my ear when I was walking as away of continuing to know that
there was purpose in this andthat the meaning would be, you
know, shown to me in time if Ijust sort of kept kept going and
my dad had always said to melike when, when you feel like
you can't continue on anymore,dig a little deeper inside, like
go inward like it's all insideof you and that always really
stuck with me, this sense thatyou can look everywhere else but
(11:26):
actually where you need to gois inward.
So I started a lot of meditationpractice, a lot of these
spiritual podcasts andmotivational things, and then
you just find like the strengthinside is there, if you learn to
harness it and access it.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
So connect this for us, please now with how you use
that.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Maybe you know like I I am, who I am personally as a
(12:07):
therapist because of myspiritual practice, but I don't
bring that into the room withpatients unless they bring it up
and that's part of what theyare seeking.
Um, so I think any goodtherapist is not going to impose
anything that they believe orthat they practice on to their
patients.
So I really let the patientsguide where they need to go and
(12:28):
I just help them understand.
You know their path may not bemy path.
You know.
Help them understand wherethey're at in their journey.
I deal with reproductivemedicine, so you know a lot of
people are trying to build theirfamilies or having miscarriages
, and suffering losses, sexualhealth issues on
co-fertilityility, so people whoare diagnosed with cancer, and
(12:48):
then preserving their gametes,their eggs, their sperm before
they go through chemotherapy sothat on the other side of it
they still have um things theycan rely on to still build a
family with.
So these are really heavy lifecrises that I'm dealing with
with my patients, you know.
So, not dissimilar to whatwe're talking about, I mean mean
they're in the midst of acrisis.
So I think, um, on a deep level, when you've been through your
(13:10):
own crisis, you have thatempathic attunement already to
what suffering means and what,um that feeling of loss means.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And we just finished um.
This episode will air rightafter we finish a whole series
on breast cancer awareness rightWe'll be done with October and
you know, that is something thatis so important to our
listeners, to, to a lot of uspersonally.
Right, we've all gone throughsomething, whether it's the
divorce you talked about,whether it's, you know, breast
cancer or whether it's anotherform of cancer, like all the
(13:42):
things you talked aboutfertility issues, those kinds of
things and I think it is soimportant to have um a support
system, right, you talked aboutthat.
With your divorce, like peoplestepped up, and I think when we
share those things, it's notalways easy to share those
things.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
It's not always easy to admit I'm sick or my husband
left me or like whatever, Right,I mean yeah, there's so much
stigma and shame involved in somuch of this right, the finding
of people, finding yourcommunity, finding the right
people Cause that's often partof the loss is that you'll reach
out to people You've alwaysrelied on your whole life and
then they just aren't saying theright things and they're not
(14:20):
listening and they're not therefor you.
And being able to pivot tosomeone else a support group, a
therapist, maybe, someone thatyou meet in the waiting room
somewhere you know and beingopen to finding the support, the
supports there, if you keeplooking and knowing that it may
not be all the people thatyou're used to relying on and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, I think you really learn right who are your
real supporters and who are not.
Right and and that's okay, andand I'm also always of the
feeling that people come intoyour life sometimes at a certain
point when you need them andthen they may be gone again
right and I think that's okay.
Maybe they're there for apurpose.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Absolutely being open to that is really, really
important.
I found that for myself and Ido encourage other people to
just be open.
I think finding meaning insuffering is key, finding the
silver lining and it's oftenhard to talk about with clients
because you know you don't wantto minimize their suffering.
But making meaning of thesuffering is what helps people
(15:18):
get on.
It's, I think, what makes thedifference between
post-traumatic stress anddisorders versus post-traumatic
growth People who are able tosort of take their suffering and
move on from it, and sometimesyou just don't know how it's
going to come right.
So, being open to the peoplethat come in getting curious
about that, like I don't know,maybe this person popped into my
life for a reason All of thatcourt work I mentioned and about
(15:42):
how it was so traumatizing inthe moment and how I just didn't
know how I was going to berepresenting myself and doing
this.
Hours and hours of work withoutany law degree.
Years and years and years fastforward.
Later I got asked to startdoing expert witness work in my
field and now it's a big part ofwhat I do and it's been very
(16:04):
enjoyable.
Huge learning curve.
It has supplemented income thatI would not have had in order
to support my kids and send themto sleepaway camp and take
vacations with them and do allthe things I wanted to do.
So you know, the universe worksin mysterious ways.
God, whatever your beliefsystem, is being open to that
and making meaning of thesuffering and saying, wow, look
(16:24):
at that.
At the time I would have had noclue that all these skills that
I was learning in thatcourtroom were going to serve me
10 years later and improve mylife and be able to allow me to
provide for my kids when mychild's was cut off.
So you just never know.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
No, I love everything you just said because I totally
feel the same way.
I feel people come in and outof our lives.
I feel that the things we gothrough sometimes are lessons
and things with them we canshare.
So I loved everything aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, yeah, same.
Here I have this, you know,question that was coming up for
me when I was actually gettingdeeper and deeper involved with
financial services, whichdefinitely didn't.
It surprised me.
I didn't, you know, growing upI didn't think I was going to,
you know, be in retirementservices and work with
(17:16):
retirement plans and that Iwould be.
You know, knowing some of theseyou know facts and learning the
landscape, and I rememberhaving this like question bubble
up of like what is thispreparing me for?
There is something happeninghere that this is preparing me
for, and I don't know what.
I don't know what it is.
So it was very empowering toalso rest in this like I don't
(17:38):
know, I don't really know, butthere is something here that is,
you know, in my favor.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Well, you learn to trust that muscle right Once
you've been through it andyou're aware of it and you can
make those links to your pathand say, oh interesting, at the
time I would have never knownthat.
That was sort of training mefor something that was going to
come later, right.
Or maybe you're drawn tosomething later because you had
that experience.
So I think you learn to trustthat then in your life.
(18:05):
Like what?
Sometimes, when things don'tmake sense, you're able to say
who knows, who knows what thisis training for.
You know, this may be trainingwheels for something later when
I'm going to ride a differentbike, right.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh my gosh, what a beautiful phrase.
Yes, and you know, to yourpoints from earlier, this is not
about sugarcoating or rushingthrough things or spiritually
bypassing.
It is really about that likedeeper, like digging deeper, and
sometimes, while I'm diggingdeeper, I just don't know what
it is that I'm finding orlooking at, but it cultivates a
certain curiosity and adisposition of openness to
(18:38):
learning, which I think isreally key, you know, no matter
what the I guess the context is.
So it feels to me.
Teresa, like Liz, has alreadyanswered the question how were
these pivots a step forward?
Like at least twice?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I think she did too.
I mean, liz, if you were, we'realmost out of time, but if you
have anything you'd love to addfor our listeners, our last
question is always you know, howhas this pivot a step forward?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And and I agree with you, but I think you've answered
that a few times in a fewdifferent ways- as a therapist,
what I've done with my patientsand have learned for myself and
I think even you were startingto say this is learning to sit
with discomfort is so hard forpeople.
Like everyone wants to get awayfrom discomfort, and I think
other people want to coach youaway from discomfort, right?
(19:25):
No one that loves you wants tosee you suffering, and so
they'll try and solve theproblem or distract you over
here, or let's go over here anddo this.
And so I've learned for myself,and certainly with my patients,
the importance of creating spaceto just sit with discomfort,
whether it's frustration oranger or pain or sadness,
because you can't get to thepivot and the creativity and the
(19:48):
openness and the surrender partto all these other things that
are out there, until you allowyourself to sit in that space
and tolerate it for a little bit.
And I think that's really key,because we know what you were
saying, like the spiritualbypass or this.
You know, like, how can we goaround it?
How can we go over it?
How can we go under it?
Actually, you just have to sitwith it, and I think it sounds
(20:11):
so simple and it's so hard, butI think that that is an
important takeaway for people tois just, you know, get the help
you need to sit with thediscomfort, but learn to just
sit with it, and then everythingis on the other side of it.
Everything's on the other sideof fear, everything's on the
other side of sadness and sorrowright, but you can't just go
around it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
No, you're absolutely right.
Thank you so much for sharingwith us.
I loved our conversation.
I'm hoping we can have you backat some point.
I love having new friends too,so this is great, thank you.
Thank you, ivana, for bringingLiz to step into the pivot for
us.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Most welcome.
Thank you, both of you, andthank you, Liz, for showcasing
what's on the other side, youknow, because I think you know
also, if we're encouraging folksto just sit with it without any
motivation or inspiration toyou know, so why would I do it?
Like there has to be, there hasto be something, something
there, and it's you know thatencourages me to then like, okay
(21:09):
, let me be with the discomfort.
If I listen to your episode, ifI see your smiling face, if I
see your you know, justbeautiful presence here, I'm
like, oh, this is on the otherside of this.
I think, you have to have hope.
Yeah, excellent, thank you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Thank you, okay, thanks everybody for being with
us this week and thanks again toDr Elizabeth Grill for being
here.
We will talk with you next weekand just a reminder, if you
have a pivot step into it.
Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
Today we're very happy to haveDr Elizabeth Grill.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
We are new friends, so I'mhappy to have you here.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nice to meet you.
Thank you for being here withus.
First experience that I've hadof you was here is someone who
is, at the same time, showing upto improve people's lives,
women's lives, in the realm ofboth psychological but then also
sexual, reproductive health,wellness, well-being.
(00:35):
Here's a health psychologistand a medical researcher and
someone who is able tocommunicate about it through a
variety of formats you speak,you write, you interview, you're
an interviewee.
You are just so versatile andstill probably the thing I'd
(00:56):
highlight the most is likefriendly and fun approachable
and just you know, it's always ajoy to interact with you,
approachable and just you know,it's always a joy to interact
with you.
And one of the ways in which wefirst started, you know,
knowing and thinking about eachother is because we were going
through a similar pivot aroundthe same time.
So not maybe exactly the samemoment, but we share a divorce
(01:23):
experience where we had tonavigate the court system while
being well mothers, right, ofkids who were relatively small
at the time when we were walkingthrough divorce.
So using that as a bridge andwe could, with you, talk about
so many different topics, butlet's just go there.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Obviously, divorce is one of the life crises that
people go through.
It's listed as one of the topstressors with the death of a
loved one or, you know, gettingcancer.
So we know that it it impactspeople greatly.
Um, I think, like you may havefelt the same way when you're in
it.
You're just sort of putting onefoot in front of the other.
So I don't think you're likeaware of that so much because
you're in survival mode and youhave kids to take care of and
finances to figure out andwhatnot.
(02:10):
So that's pretty much where Iwas was just survival mode,
getting through it.
Um, I think there's somethinginstinctual that just kicks in
that people used to say like Idon't know how you do it.
I don't know, know, and I usedto.
My answer always used to belike what's the alternative?
You know to like crawl underthe covers and never come out,
which some people do if they'resuffering in that way, and then
(02:30):
hopefully they get the help theyneed.
But I didn't really see anyother option but to just keep
you know.
Moving on, I had a great supportsystem of friends.
I have an amazing career that Ilove and I'm so passionate
about, so that definitely helpedas a fallback.
But the kids were young.
You know, my kids were young.
I think my daughter was stillin diapers when I divorced.
So it was a brave decisionLooking back, definitely the
(02:52):
best decision I ever made at thetime.
You know you question thatbecause there's so much riding
on it when you have young kidsand this, this misnomer of like
wait till the kids are older incollege, just stick it out and
then leave, and that theresearch doesn't necessarily
show that that's the rightdecision either.
But you know, when you're in itand you've got young kids, you
feel like you're about to riptheir lives apart.
(03:13):
It's hard but in the long run,definitely you know best, best
decision.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, for me it was one of the big experiences,
without really quite having thelanguage for it, of just being
forced to, encouraged, nudgedand sometimes just like really
pushed to accept the moment andrealizing that none of the you
know thinking around like can'tbelieve this is happening.
I can't believe this ishappening.
(03:41):
I can't believe what I'm seeingLike that wasn't serving anyone
.
Can't believe this is happening.
I can't believe what I'm seeingit like that that wasn't
serving anyone.
Right Starting with my owninner you know, ability to just
show up for what was happeningand be able to deal with it with
peace and calm.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I mean, I think my bigger pivotwas probably post-divorce not
necessarily going through themoments of divorce, but we had a
very brutal kind of like sixyears post-divorce in the court
system.
So I think the true trauma youknow, I know the word is used
(04:15):
loosely these days, but itreally I think was very
traumatic going through thepost-divorce, feeling like, okay
, the paperwork was finallysigned, now we can get on with
our lives.
And then very quickly realizingthat that necessarily wasn't
going to be the case.
Um, the courts are traumatizing.
You know it's no place for thecourts, don't know how to make
best decisions for kids or forfamilies.
(04:36):
And I think there's thisfantasy that when you wind up in
the court system, somehowjustice will be served.
And I found it even morefrustrating when, like friends
would say, but how could thispossibly be happening?
I mean, it's just so obvious,how could the judge not see it?
So it's like re-traumatizing,right.
And then your community aroundyou is also traumatized by it
and saying, but how could thisbe?
And you're like, well, it justis right.
(04:57):
So I found that to be much moredepleting actually was coming
to the realization that thecourts were not going to solve
this in any kind of equitableway.
That felt like justice wasbeing served.
Um, and then the really sort ofmoment I know you wanted to talk
about, the moment where youreally think, feel like things
(05:18):
shifted, you know, in my lifewas much after that.
It was six years later when acourt decision did not go in his
way and he wound up leaving thecountry and with the idea that
he would sort of tell me whatthe needs were and if I didn't
meet those needs, he wasn'tgoing to be coming back.
(05:39):
And so I was met one morning inSeptember, as I was getting my
kids ready for school, with thisemail that basically said I
purchased a one way ticket outof the country.
I'm never going to listen towhat the courts are telling me
to do.
So you have a choice you caneither meet these demands or I'm
not coming back.
So that was really the pivotalmoment in my life because it was
like 7 am in September.
one morning just waking up to anormal morning morning, just
(06:00):
waking up to a normal morning,and you see, like your life pass
in front of you, like, oh myGod, all of a sudden, every
other weekend is no longer everyother weekend without your kids
.
There's no break.
You know you're going to be afull-time parent.
You don't have childcare inplace to solve that problem
right now.
You, you know you won't havesummer vacations off.
Like, all of a sudden, you'refaced with the reality of this
(06:23):
is is this really happening?
Is this real?
So I think that was the momentfor me where I really see this
division in like life before andlife after, if that makes sense
.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, it totally makes sense and how so?
So you know, and I think thathappens a lot more than you
think, right, it's, it's kind ofsad that that somebody would
just walk away from their kids.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Talk about from your standpoint right.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
It's kind of sad that somebody would just walk away
from their kids.
Talk about, from yourstandpoint right, how that then
moved you to the next phase,right Into your own personal
growth, your own you know mentalstate, your own emotional
health right.
How did you use that for thepositive, because I know you did
so yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
So you know when the shock wears off and you're like,
oh my gosh.
And you know everything was cutoff financially too.
So it was like I'm leaving thecountry.
I've cut off everythingfinancial.
There's no child support,there's no childcare right.
So it's like wow, um.
And went into immediate problemsolving mode of figuring out
childcare solutions so I couldcontinue working, and what I was
(07:26):
going to need called in sort ofmy support system to say hey, I
need you, here's what's goingon.
And you know they all ralliedand they're like I'm there
whatever you need.
And then I think it was monthsafter that, when I eased into
this sort of new routine, that Irealized that the energy I was
spending on the court system Iwas representing myself believe
(07:48):
it or not, I had fired all mylawyers, it was spending, you
know, I was making them richerto buy their second homes in the
Hamptons while I was not beingable to pay grocery bills.
So it was like this somethingabout this is not working you
know, so I represented myselfwith no law degree and that took
a tremendous amount of energyand it was all exhausting and
negative.
(08:08):
And you know, I was sittingthere cross examining my
ex-husband and his with hislawyer, and I was sitting there
alone in this courtroom bymyself representing myself,
fighting for my kids.
So I think once that wasremoved, like all of that stress
and negativity and energy, I'dbe up late at night writing
(08:29):
motions and cross-examinationquestions.
Um, I was left with space againto heal and to allow creativity
come back.
And so it happened, sort oforganically.
You know that all of a suddenthere were there were just these
spaces inside of mine andstarted finding solutions to
(09:11):
supplementing what I neededfinancially, that I wasn't
getting in child support anymoreRight, coming up with creative
business ideas.
I mean, we would joke that wewere just two shrinks who all of
a sudden had to learn how tolike form an LLC and get an
attorney and trademark rights,and you know, the learning curve
was tremendous.
But here we were, we were justdoing it.
You know, just all the ways thatpeople say like, oh well, you
(09:32):
can never do that, or you don'thave that background, or you
know, you've never developed anapp before, you're not a tech
person, or you're not this andwe just did it.
You know, we licensed our appsto pharmaceutical companies and
and suddenly that fuels yourself-confidence, self-esteem,
and you start to realize like,wow, look at all this, like
positive energy flowing in thatwas being sucked out before,
(09:55):
when my focus was on likefighting the fight rather than
going on living life Right.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yes, because you know , like, if I'm just thinking
about what you were goingthrough, tactically speaking,
we're talking about a lot ofhours, like physical hours, even
just picturing you in some formof commute, getting to these
locations where you have torepresent yourself, like, let
alone those, you know, latenights that you were talking
about.
So lots of hours.
But I feel like what you'rehighlighting is really that the
(10:24):
biggest decluttering and theopening of the space was
happening on an internal leveland, uh, and that's really where
the you know availabilitystarted to come through when you
were you know.
Yeah, I'm really expressing someof your creativity.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I think you know every commute.
I would listen to positivepodcasts about how people kind
of rose up from the ashes andlike survival stories and how
people like hit rock bottom andthen climbed out, and I would
almost use it to brainwash mythoughts thing in my car or in
(11:04):
my ear when I was walking as away of continuing to know that
there was purpose in this andthat the meaning would be, you
know, shown to me in time if Ijust sort of kept kept going and
my dad had always said to melike when, when you feel like
you can't continue on anymore,dig a little deeper inside, like
go inward like it's all insideof you and that always really
stuck with me, this sense thatyou can look everywhere else but
(11:26):
actually where you need to gois inward.
So I started a lot of meditationpractice, a lot of these
spiritual podcasts andmotivational things, and then
you just find like the strengthinside is there, if you learn to
harness it and access it.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
So connect this for us, please now with how you use
that.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Maybe you know like I I am, who I am personally as a
(12:07):
therapist because of myspiritual practice, but I don't
bring that into the room withpatients unless they bring it up
and that's part of what theyare seeking.
Um, so I think any goodtherapist is not going to impose
anything that they believe orthat they practice on to their
patients.
So I really let the patientsguide where they need to go and
(12:28):
I just help them understand.
You know their path may not bemy path.
You know.
Help them understand wherethey're at in their journey.
I deal with reproductivemedicine, so you know a lot of
people are trying to build theirfamilies or having miscarriages
, and suffering losses, sexualhealth issues on
co-fertilityility, so people whoare diagnosed with cancer, and
(12:48):
then preserving their gametes,their eggs, their sperm before
they go through chemotherapy sothat on the other side of it
they still have um things theycan rely on to still build a
family with.
So these are really heavy lifecrises that I'm dealing with
with my patients, you know.
So, not dissimilar to whatwe're talking about, I mean mean
they're in the midst of acrisis.
So I think, um, on a deep level, when you've been through your
(13:10):
own crisis, you have thatempathic attunement already to
what suffering means and what,um that feeling of loss means.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And we just finished um.
This episode will air rightafter we finish a whole series
on breast cancer awareness rightWe'll be done with October and
you know, that is something thatis so important to our
listeners, to, to a lot of uspersonally.
Right, we've all gone throughsomething, whether it's the
divorce you talked about,whether it's, you know, breast
cancer or whether it's anotherform of cancer, like all the
(13:42):
things you talked aboutfertility issues, those kinds of
things and I think it is soimportant to have um a support
system, right, you talked aboutthat.
With your divorce, like peoplestepped up, and I think when we
share those things, it's notalways easy to share those
things.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
It's not always easy to admit I'm sick or my husband
left me or like whatever, Right,I mean yeah, there's so much
stigma and shame involved in somuch of this right, the finding
of people, finding yourcommunity, finding the right
people Cause that's often partof the loss is that you'll reach
out to people You've alwaysrelied on your whole life and
then they just aren't saying theright things and they're not
(14:20):
listening and they're not therefor you.
And being able to pivot tosomeone else a support group, a
therapist, maybe, someone thatyou meet in the waiting room
somewhere you know and beingopen to finding the support, the
supports there, if you keeplooking and knowing that it may
not be all the people thatyou're used to relying on and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, I think you really learn right who are your
real supporters and who are not.
Right and and that's okay, andand I'm also always of the
feeling that people come intoyour life sometimes at a certain
point when you need them andthen they may be gone again
right and I think that's okay.
Maybe they're there for apurpose.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Absolutely being open to that is really, really
important.
I found that for myself and Ido encourage other people to
just be open.
I think finding meaning insuffering is key, finding the
silver lining and it's oftenhard to talk about with clients
because you know you don't wantto minimize their suffering.
But making meaning of thesuffering is what helps people
(15:18):
get on.
It's, I think, what makes thedifference between
post-traumatic stress anddisorders versus post-traumatic
growth People who are able tosort of take their suffering and
move on from it, and sometimesyou just don't know how it's
going to come right.
So, being open to the peoplethat come in getting curious
about that, like I don't know,maybe this person popped into my
life for a reason All of thatcourt work I mentioned and about
(15:42):
how it was so traumatizing inthe moment and how I just didn't
know how I was going to berepresenting myself and doing
this.
Hours and hours of work withoutany law degree.
Years and years and years fastforward.
Later I got asked to startdoing expert witness work in my
field and now it's a big part ofwhat I do and it's been very
(16:04):
enjoyable.
Huge learning curve.
It has supplemented income thatI would not have had in order
to support my kids and send themto sleepaway camp and take
vacations with them and do allthe things I wanted to do.
So you know, the universe worksin mysterious ways.
God, whatever your beliefsystem, is being open to that
and making meaning of thesuffering and saying, wow, look
(16:24):
at that.
At the time I would have had noclue that all these skills that
I was learning in thatcourtroom were going to serve me
10 years later and improve mylife and be able to allow me to
provide for my kids when mychild's was cut off.
So you just never know.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
No, I love everything you just said because I totally
feel the same way.
I feel people come in and outof our lives.
I feel that the things we gothrough sometimes are lessons
and things with them we canshare.
So I loved everything aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, yeah, same.
Here I have this, you know,question that was coming up for
me when I was actually gettingdeeper and deeper involved with
financial services, whichdefinitely didn't.
It surprised me.
I didn't, you know, growing upI didn't think I was going to,
you know, be in retirementservices and work with
(17:16):
retirement plans and that Iwould be.
You know, knowing some of theseyou know facts and learning the
landscape, and I rememberhaving this like question bubble
up of like what is thispreparing me for?
There is something happeninghere that this is preparing me
for, and I don't know what.
I don't know what it is.
So it was very empowering toalso rest in this like I don't
(17:38):
know, I don't really know, butthere is something here that is,
you know, in my favor.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Well, you learn to trust that muscle right Once
you've been through it andyou're aware of it and you can
make those links to your pathand say, oh interesting, at the
time I would have never knownthat.
That was sort of training mefor something that was going to
come later, right.
Or maybe you're drawn tosomething later because you had
that experience.
So I think you learn to trustthat then in your life.
(18:05):
Like what?
Sometimes, when things don'tmake sense, you're able to say
who knows, who knows what thisis training for.
You know, this may be trainingwheels for something later when
I'm going to ride a differentbike, right.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh my gosh, what a beautiful phrase.
Yes, and you know, to yourpoints from earlier, this is not
about sugarcoating or rushingthrough things or spiritually
bypassing.
It is really about that likedeeper, like digging deeper, and
sometimes, while I'm diggingdeeper, I just don't know what
it is that I'm finding orlooking at, but it cultivates a
certain curiosity and adisposition of openness to
(18:38):
learning, which I think isreally key, you know, no matter
what the I guess the context is.
So it feels to me.
Teresa, like Liz, has alreadyanswered the question how were
these pivots a step forward?
Like at least twice?
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I think she did too.
I mean, liz, if you were, we'realmost out of time, but if you
have anything you'd love to addfor our listeners, our last
question is always you know, howhas this pivot a step forward?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And and I agree with you, but I think you've answered
that a few times in a fewdifferent ways- as a therapist,
what I've done with my patientsand have learned for myself and
I think even you were startingto say this is learning to sit
with discomfort is so hard forpeople.
Like everyone wants to get awayfrom discomfort, and I think
other people want to coach youaway from discomfort, right?
(19:25):
No one that loves you wants tosee you suffering, and so
they'll try and solve theproblem or distract you over
here, or let's go over here anddo this.
And so I've learned for myself,and certainly with my patients,
the importance of creating spaceto just sit with discomfort,
whether it's frustration oranger or pain or sadness,
because you can't get to thepivot and the creativity and the
(19:48):
openness and the surrender partto all these other things that
are out there, until you allowyourself to sit in that space
and tolerate it for a little bit.
And I think that's really key,because we know what you were
saying, like the spiritualbypass or this.
You know, like, how can we goaround it?
How can we go over it?
How can we go under it?
Actually, you just have to sitwith it, and I think it sounds
(20:11):
so simple and it's so hard, butI think that that is an
important takeaway for people tois just, you know, get the help
you need to sit with thediscomfort, but learn to just
sit with it, and then everythingis on the other side of it.
Everything's on the other sideof fear, everything's on the
other side of sadness and sorrowright, but you can't just go
around it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
No, you're absolutely right.
Thank you so much for sharingwith us.
I loved our conversation.
I'm hoping we can have you backat some point.
I love having new friends too,so this is great, thank you.
Thank you, ivana, for bringingLiz to step into the pivot for
us.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Most welcome.
Thank you, both of you, andthank you, Liz, for showcasing
what's on the other side, youknow, because I think you know
also, if we're encouraging folksto just sit with it without any
motivation or inspiration toyou know, so why would I do it?
Like there has to be, there hasto be something, something
there, and it's you know thatencourages me to then like, okay
(21:09):
, let me be with the discomfort.
If I listen to your episode, ifI see your smiling face, if I
see your you know, justbeautiful presence here, I'm
like, oh, this is on the otherside of this.
I think, you have to have hope.
Yeah, excellent, thank you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Thank you, okay, thanks everybody for being with
us this week and thanks again toDr Elizabeth Grill for being
here.
We will talk with you next weekand just a reminder, if you
have a pivot step into it.
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