December 20, 2024 • 32 mins
Karen Zander, an executive director at JP Morgan, courageously opens up about the complex and often untold journey of caring for aging parents, a reality many face but few discuss openly. Karen's personal story of managing her father's physical challenges and her mother's dementia and Parkinson's disease is likened to participating in an endless, uphill marathon. Her insights highlight the unpredictable nature of these responsibilities and underscore the importance of having a support network. Within this discussion, Karen draws compelling parallels between preparing for life's unexpected events and training for a marathon, reminding us that many face these challenges without prior preparation.
We delve into the emotional intricacies of caregiving and the daunting decisions that come along with it. Karen emphasizes the importance of proactive planning and open, honest conversations with aging loved ones about their wishes. Through poignant personal anecdotes, she shares the weight of making difficult medical decisions and the crucial role of supportive family dynamics. The episode sheds light on the value of compassionate leadership within the family, especially when navigating the healthcare system and making decisions about treatments.
Wellthy, the organization we reference on the show, helps families balance work and caregiving responsibilities through a combination of precision technology and human expertise.
Connect with Wellthy:
Wellthy.com
Guest Bio:
Karen Zander, Executive Director, is a Retirement National Accounts Client Advisor at J.P. Morgan Asset Management. Karen is responsible for managing key national accounts with strategic retirement and defined contribution platform partners. With over 25 years of experience in the investment management industry, and the majority of the time specializing in corporate and individual retirement, Karen serves as a retirement and investment specialist resource for retirement clients as well as internally on special projects. Karen graduated with a B.S. in Psychology from Fordham University, lives in New York City, and also answers to the nickname “KZ.”
Connect with Karen:
LinkedIn
Connect with Theresa and Ivana:
Theresa, True Strategy Consultants: tsc-consultants.com
LinkedIn @treeconti, Insta @tscconsultants
Ivana, Courageous Being: courageousbeing.com
LinkedIn @ivipol, Insta @courbeing
SITP team, Step Into The Pivot: stepintothepivot.com
LinkedIn @step-into-the-pivot, YouTube @StepIntoThePivot
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
We're so happy to have you hereagain and we are also happy to
have our friend, karen Zander.
And Karen, we thank you so muchfor being here with us today.
It really is a pleasure and I'mreally excited for our
conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thank you, it's such a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Awesome, so just as a high overview, be here.
Awesome, so just as a highoverview.
Karen is an executive directorof Retirement National Accounts
client advisor at JP Morgan.
So definitely in our amazingindustry.
25 years of experiencespecializing in retirement so
what a great resume, what agreat conversation.
(00:42):
I'm definitely looking forwardto it resume.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
What a great conversation.
I'm definitely looking forwardto it.
Yes, casey, welcome to the show.
We're so happy to have you andI like to highlight, when we
have guests who, for me, were soinstrumental over the course of
my career in helping me feellike I belong and helping me
feel like I am not alone as afemale in a male dominated
(01:09):
industry.
You absolutely were highlightof that kind of, you know, sense
of belonging for me.
Many, many years ago, when wefirst met through work, you were
in conversations where we wereall happy to say together, not
the only woman in the room, theonly two women in the room in,
you know, in several such suchinstances and obviously we
(01:32):
bonded over that experience and,you know, every so often you
would, as we would, you know,get together related to work
events, then would have anopportunity to just check in,
because you know there was asimpatico there right from the
get-go, you would gently sharethat there is, you know,
something on your mind relatedto your parents, or I would ask
(01:56):
you, how are they doing?
And so, over the course of, youknow, quite a few years, I've
had this, you know, honor towitness you walking through your
pivot.
We've invited you on the showto talk about that topic and we
haven't had too many guests, youknow dig deep into it so far.
So please tell us anythingyou'd like us to know about your
(02:19):
major pivot and the series ofmini pivots that you've.
You know you've faced over thelast um, should we say decade.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Life does throw you the curve balls.
That makes you pivot.
That's very true.
And the first thing I would say, too, is thank you for that
lovely introduction and I amhonored that you have been my
friend through the journey.
Um, you know, as I'll probablysay many times throughout our
conversation here, it was thethe support of my friends and
family and that have really beenable to help me get through
(02:47):
that, and I think that's true ofmany people with elder care
responsibilities.
It's very surprising.
You always know, oh yes,parents get older and you know
you're going to have to comestep in and help them, but you
don't really know the extentthat you'll have to go through,
(03:12):
especially if with differentillnesses.
So I had my parents.
Um, my first uh encounter withit was, um, my parents were very
lucky that they were veryhealthy throughout their lives.
God bless them.
Um, my father began havinghealth issues when he was around
75 years old and that wasprobably around 2008.
And I was a late in life child.
So if you're backing into thenumbers, you know I'm not that
old.
But a few years later, but he,his, his, more, his issues were
(03:33):
more, his body was breaking downbut his mind was still sharp as
a tack, versus my mother A fewyears later began showing signs
of dementia and ultimatelyParkinson's disease.
So that's, you know that it'svery different types of stresses
that come with each of those.
Um and and I've always said it'skind of it was a bit of a slow
creep of medical issues overtime.
(03:54):
And you kind of know it, youknow.
You know you're going to haveto face it one day, but you
don't really know what it's likeuntil you're knee deep in it,
especially when it comes tohelping someone with the
challenges of dementia,alzheimer's and Parkinson's.
But, like I was saying to youthe other day, there's a saying
it's a marathon, not a sprint.
But in this case it's like amarathon, running uphill with
(04:17):
each mile going steeper and theplateaus just get further and
further apart and you never knowwhen the plateau is coming.
So you kind of have to enjoy itwhile you can, but it's.
It's not easy navigating thoseend of life situations and
decisions.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
And you know, since we are talking about a marathon,
one thing that I know peoplewho sign up for a marathon do
well, they sign up for it.
I you're not typically justtold to run a marathon without
prep, and that's the other word.
They prep for the marathon.
So can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
You know prep.
(04:52):
So obviously this is notsomething that you, you know you
didn't sign up for this.
And was there something that youwould highlight as you're
thinking, you know, about thatmetaphor that you feel like you
know, maybe prepped you or, youknow, paved the way for you to
be able to, you know, sustainthat uphill marathon and maybe
(05:14):
at this point is a good reminderto just you know, I invoked our
careers.
I talked about, you know, usmeeting through work, but we
wanted to, you know, respect thecontext that we're in here.
You know we are related toretirement industry, financial
services and obviously all ofthe opinions and thoughts and
conversation here.
(05:35):
Those are our opinions andthoughts and comments about our
own journeys as women and, karen, we appreciate you here sharing
as an individual and not onbehalf of, you know, any, any
logo or any organization.
So, you know, thank you forbeing able to do that.
So this is a disclosure foranyone who didn't like to figure
(05:55):
that out.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, I mean there really was.
I was not prepped, I was notready.
I mean, my father's first majormedical issue was stroke, kind
of comes out of left field and Iwasn't expecting it and none of
his previous doctor'sappointments had shown anything
that this.
It just comes up sometimes.
So I wasn't prepped when itstarted.
But then over time I think whathelped was my curiosity.
(06:23):
I've always been a curiousperson, so curiosity and asking
questions has always been mything and or I should say I've
always been a skill of mine.
So that helps when you're tryingto figure out the medical
establishment and differentlanguage different, I mean, it's
(06:47):
english but they spoke inenglish, but it was a different
language, different acronyms,versus the banking world that I
am and the capital world,capital world that I'm so used
to, it's it was a very differentlanguage, but once you started
to get the language, umunderstanding how to then
communicate back in a way, umthat you were able to help
(07:09):
advocate for the my parents withtheir, their medical choices,
um and their decisions, andunderstanding asking the right
questions to get to theinformation we needed to make
the right decision, um.
So asking a lot of questions,um, and and being really
organized, which, over time, youknow, the things that we learn
in in our careers actually dohelp us in organizing other
(07:33):
things as well, um, or just aswomen juggling many, many things
, which I think a lot of us.
I relied a lot on my friends aswell to help me figure out
different ways to juggle um,juggle multiple engagements at
the same time.
So, um, I don't know that I wasreally prepared, but you learn
quick, um, and, and I'm stilllearning.
Even you know a lot of things.
(07:54):
I applied there.
I'm applying to myself when Ihave medical issues.
So I learned a lot, or thethings I learned with my dad
first, and then I was able toapply them for my mom.
So it's it was.
It was definitely a learningprocess.
That's maybe a better person to, maybe a better patient, maybe
a better communicator with mydoctors.
I think I get better treatmentbecause I can communicate the
(08:17):
way I do so.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And probably ask questions, right, cause you
really, you know, we we've hadguests where we talk about how
they have to advocate forthemselves, right, and push to
get the right diagnosis, and andyou're doing that for your
parents, right, like, um, itbecomes it.
It becomes a very interestingprocess.
We moved my husband's dad, uh,to Phoenix from uh, tennessee
(08:42):
because he was living on his ownand even though he's in fairly
good health, um, you know, otherthan having type two diabetes
is really his biggest issue, butit was a retraining him to to
eat better and take care ofhimself and figure out how to do
that.
It's, it's a lot of thosepieces that you know that,
really, then you sit back andyou think about and you said
(09:03):
this, karen, that that, like,then you got to do for yourself
too, right, like it's going tomake you better and make you
think about that.
So, um, I love that you talkedabout that.
I think more people are goingthrough that than we even think
about, or or we'll be goingthrough that in the next few
years, right as as we all getolder, right, and our and our
parents are there, and then youknow, we're going to have to
(09:25):
figure that out for us too atsome point.
So talk maybe a little abouthow that helped in your, your
personal growth, your mental andemotional health journey.
Um, because there's a lot ofthings that go on, a lot of
things that happen when, these,when, when you're faced with
some of this.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
That's very true, Very true.
Um, you know this, this such astrain.
When you balance caregiving,personal life, your mental
wellbeing, it's that's pro.
That was probably especiallywhen things got much worse than
the volume of doctorsappointments and decision-making
and and things kind of all cameto a head, all at a very
(10:08):
similar time.
You know, I I always a um, a doit yourself type of person.
I just get it done, no matter,I'll find a way to work the
extra time, I'll get it done.
Um, so I've always been veryself-reliant, um, and not big on
asking for help.
And it was a humbling time whenI realized I absolutely cannot
(10:29):
do this on my own.
I'm doing, I'm trying to doeverything myself, I'm making a
mess of it and cannot do this onmy own.
I'm doing, I'm trying to doeverything myself, I'm making a
mess of it, and you know, andand I need more than just a
conversation on the phone, Ineed someone in here to help me
every day and or, you know, orat least for this week or two, I
need someone here to help meevery day.
Thankfully, I learned to askfor help and and I learned not
to be ashamed of asking for helpbecause you can't do everything
(10:50):
on your own.
There's some things, no matterwhat kind of wonder woman you
are, there are some things.
You're just not good.
It's just too hard to do on yourown and you do it better, and
that's what I would.
I would always tell myself that, too, you'll do it better and
you'll care for them better ifyou enlist more people in the in
the search, um.
(11:12):
One of the people who wascritical for me was my best
friend, um.
We grew up, we've been bestfriends.
We were three years old, um.
She looked at my, she looked atmy parents, like her parents,
you know.
They were all very close andshe was and she could come in um
in a heartbeat and she was andlive close by, so she was able
to come in a heartbeat to helpme when I needed.
(11:32):
So you know, and you know otherfamily members, um and friends
were were also criticallyhelpful.
So learning to ask for help andto accept that um and not beat
myself up for it that's anotherthing I'm famous for doing to
myself beating myself up.
So I I there's no one harder onme and on me in this world than
myself but I've learned to bebetter at forgiving myself, too,
um on me in this world thanmyself, and I've learned to be
(11:53):
better at forgiving myself, too,um, cause, no matter how, all
you can do is the best you cando sometimes, and it's never
going to be perfect, even thoughyou try to make things as
perfect as you can.
So, uh, asking for help andbeing and being kinder to myself
when things didn't go exactlyhow I wanted them to, I'd say
that that was probably thebiggest learning, and it took me
a long time to learn that.
I should have learned thatquicker.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, you know, what you're saying is exactly right.
I think we all are so hard onourselves and want to do that
and I, I know even I wants tosay something.
I just wanted to say to ourlisteners, too, that I was
actually on a panel a few monthsago about caregiving and there
is an organization out therethat does help people who have
(12:37):
caregiving.
They're like an advocate forthe patient and sometimes they
step in, like if there'sdilemmas between family members,
right, let's say, you had threesisters and you guys couldn't
agree, they will step in andhelp and give the options and
give some recommendations.
I will find out the name of thatand even though we can include
it when we post this podcast forour listeners, because I really
(12:59):
thought it was very cool andvery interesting and you had
your best friend and that'sawesome that a lot of times we
do have somebody to help us.
But what if you don't, or whatif there's problems between the
family members?
When you're trying to figurethis out, right, it gets a lot
harder and it's hard enough tonavigate, much less have all
these other factors.
(13:20):
So I'll find out thatinformation and we will post it
as part of this podcast?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Absolutely, I was lucky too.
It was me and my brother, so Ihave one older brother and we
were pretty much in lockstepwhen it came to and we were
pretty much in lockstep when itcame to understanding what our
parents' wants and needs were,and he backed my play and told
me when he thought I was wrong.
You know, we have a good enoughrelationship, so we were lucky
(13:45):
that way.
But that can be verychallenging when you have
multiple siblings who all care alot for the parents and want to
do the right thing.
It's hard and the decisionsaren't easy.
Decisions who all care a lotfor the parents and and want to
do the right thing.
It's hard and some of the andthe decisions aren't easy.
Decisions and and I, you knowand being doing what we do, like
planning for retirement, it'sall about planning, and I and I
would have these conversationsas I saw them, my parents
(14:06):
getting older.
I, you know, I sat down withthem and I discussed with them.
You know what, ha?
What do you think if thishappens?
What do you think if thathappens?
And we had so I really did know, because I did ask them and
they did express it to me, butthat was then, and then that,
you know, fast forward five or10 years when it started getting
towards the end, especially inthe case of my mother with the
(14:28):
dementia and Parkinson's.
She was there, but she wasn'treally there, right?
So it was a flattening of herpersonality and it was a
flattening of her cognition.
And you know, I think I knowwhat she wanted decision.
When you're the one standing inthe hospital hallways, you know
(14:55):
having to decide.
Is this the time when yourfather goes on hospice care
which means they're not going todo any further message to try
to fix this latest issue?
Um, you know it's, and you're,and you're the one there in the
moment and you're making thedecision, and you're the one
there in the moment and you'remaking the decision.
It's very, very hard.
It's hard to decide which,which medical issues do you
(15:23):
treat.
That was the one that reallyhit me hard trying to figure out
with my mother.
You know you have this issue.
She had this skin abnormalityand I'm having the conversation
with the doctor saying, you know, this is a small skin
abnormality, but to go throughall the tests, to do all these
things, to have all thisuncomfortable stuff done to her
for something that's going totake 10 years to kill her and
(15:45):
she's lucky if she has five more, saying no to that treatment
and being able to live withyourself, you know it's very
that's.
You know it sounds like.
You know that sounds like aneasy calculus when you look at
it on paper, but when it's yourmom, and what if I'm wrong?
What if it's not?
What if the doctors are wrong?
What if it's not five years?
What if she goes for another 10?
(16:05):
And then this is what gets her?
So it's, it's very challenging.
With my dad it was easierbecause he had the cognition, so
, even though he was goingthrough these issues, he, I
could have the conversation withhim, and I did.
Once he had his, he had anissue with his abdominal aortic
valve and and I was sitting withhim at the doctor and I was
(16:26):
saying to the doctor, how willthis, if this ruptures?
What described to me what willhappen?
And I could see my fathervisibly getting pale and I was
visibly getting pale but I said,but what are the odds of this
happening versus an 82 year oldhaving open heart surgery and
all the stuff that could killhim, you know?
(16:47):
But so we decided not to dothat and it was not the
abdominal or an aortic valvethat got him.
So that was the right decision.
But you don't know that in themoment.
So those are deep decisionsthat sometimes you have to make,
actually pretty quickly.
Some of them you have time, butsome of them so.
That's the thing is, no oneprepares you for that, no one
tells you ahead of time and youdon't always know, because this
(17:10):
will come up out of nowhere.
The problem, the medical issue,comes up out of nowhere and
then split second, decide it's,it's one thing if it's you, but
you're deciding for someone else, it's very even if and someone
you love.
I mean, my parents were belovedto me, they were the most
wonderful parents a girl couldask for, and that was the heart,
(17:31):
probably one of the hardestthings making those decisions
and praying.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Wow.
So you talked about, you know,needing to ask for help and
receiving the support andopening up to that.
And then I you know I'mlistening to you talk about this
now and you know the word thatreally comes up for me in
summary of this leadership youhave had to be a leader of this
(17:58):
whole process.
Yes, you mentioned your brother.
He has his own experience.
He had to be a leader of hisown life and his own experiences
.
But I also know that you knowyou were at the crux of a lot of
these decisions and there werea lot of conversations like the
one that you just, you know,highlighted, or a couple that
you just highlighted.
So things that come to mind islike there, you are okay asking
(18:20):
for help, receiving help,changing help when it's not
working, and you're the onestepping into the leadership
mode around.
You know managing your owninternal state.
So that's what would make you aconscious leader.
So, like, what's going on for me?
Am I beating myself up?
Am I being helpful?
Should I get more curious?
Could I get more determined?
(18:40):
Could I ask a better question?
Could I, you know, can I takeinto consideration?
Is this my mom and certainquestions of her are not
pertinent.
Is it my dad?
I should actually ask him toweigh and chime in right now, in
real time, right?
So all of that is like yourinner GPS you know working, and
(19:01):
then you are showcasing projectmanagement skills, time
management skills, peoplemanagement skills, you know.
So, while this may not havebeen something that you like
officially prepped for, I cansee how a lot of different
experiences and things that youhad been exposed to up until
then they do.
(19:21):
We still start to like.
All right, this, like I think Ithink I heard somewhere that
our gender gen x, we like ourtoolbox and dual belt and
research, but I like okay.
So, like I hear you and see youhere with your toolbox, like let
me pull something out, I've gota resource here that might be
helpful, a resource here thatmight be helpful, and I wonder,
(19:47):
a, if that resonates and, b, ifyou can connect that with that
wonderful story that you told uswhen we had a conversation.
You were in the midst of thisand you had just lost your dad,
but your mom was still with youand we were reminiscing about
your time working with them at arestaurant.
Did you know this, teresa?
That Karen's beginnings when itcomes to her work, I think.
(20:10):
But those were the questionsthat I asked you back then.
You know, years ago now, thatall comes from actually being,
uh, in the restaurant businesswith her parents.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I did not know that, so that's very cool actually.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Well, technically it was just my mom and my mom's
family, but my dad was around alot.
He loved to hang out there.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
In fact, he had been friends with my mother's brother
.
That's how they got together inthe neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
My father was friends with her brother.
But, yes, so you're know,you're right.
A lot of tools in the tool beltthat learned over time and, yes
, I absolutely get my work ethicfrom them.
Growing up, my family, mymother's family, had an Italian
restaurant in Queens not farfrom Shea Stadium.
I know it's now called CityField, but I'll always call it
(20:58):
Shea, that's for you Met fansout there Go Mets.
So, um, but, um, yeah, I grew upworking.
Um, I was going to.
You know, I was in high school.
All my friends were going outon a Friday night and my parents
, my parents, would be like, no,you're going to go work first,
you can go out, you can go outafter you get off of work.
So every Friday, saturday,sunday night I was working.
(21:24):
Um, so, yes, I learned a workethic from them and I, um,
although I always said all thewhole time I was working and
going to college, high schooland college.
Thankfully, we the restaurantuh closed and my, my, my parents
retired right after I graduatedcollege.
But, uh, I always said I wanteda nice job that offered
vacation time and very goodhealth insurance things that you
don't get in the restaurantindustry.
(21:45):
So, yes, I definitely learnedmy work ethic from those years
at the retirement.
But it's funny after they'regone, you know the years you
spend and it was great manyyears.
From the time my father firstgot sick to the marathon I ran
(22:06):
was over many, many, many years,um, until, most most recently,
my mom passed away in 2021.
Um, that's why I missed Napathat year, cause she passed away
a couple of days before Napathat year.
Um, but, um, you know, know thehell you go through at the end
and it's indelibly marked andyou never forget it.
(22:26):
But, through the grief andthrough the other side of it, it
was surprised me how quicklythe totality of their lives came
back and you're so focused atthe end with trying to make them
comfortable and give them thedignity they deserve and and
make them as comfortable aspossible and try and get a smile
(22:47):
and, you know, try to bepresent and try to do all these
things and then, once all thatthat you know, you go through
the grief of losing them.
I really was surprised at howquickly that tough part faded
back and because that was at theforefront, that's all I saw.
All I saw was my mother, uh,with as a dementia and Parkinson
and someone I had to help andsomeone I had to carry and
(23:09):
someone I had to treat Um.
But as soon as she passed, allthe rest of it kind of came
forward.
Um, similar with my dad too,like and, and he and he wasn't
as bad.
His and actually happenedfairly quickly.
It wasn't as drawn out as mymom's was.
Um, similar with my dad too,like and, and he and he wasn't
as bad.
His end actually happenedfairly quickly.
It wasn't as drawn out as mymom's was Um.
But for both of them, I mean,I've always I always had the
appreciation of them, even whilethey were living for the
(23:30):
totality of their lives.
But, um, even the trauma ofwhat happened towards the end
went back and all the good stuffcame forward.
I don't know if that's a matterof my heart being at peace or
knowing my, my, I and my familyand friends did the best for
them that we could.
Um, maybe it's part of my faith, maybe it's just part of my
(23:51):
general attitude.
I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I wish I had a good answer which one of those it was
probably a little bit of allthree I was going to say it's
probably all of the above.
Honestly, it probably is all ofthe above right, like you have
to have peace that you did thebest you could for them and I
kind of feel it when you'resaying it, that you really do
that.
And I was thinking not to getkind of off because I'm going to
ask you our last question but Iwas thinking, oh, if that
(24:16):
restaurant stayed open, maybeher career would have taken a
whole different turn here.
But I'm totally well, I love tocook and I've considered that a
few times.
But yeah, I agree with you, I'mnot sure I would love those
hours, but but I think it's kindof cool, right.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Like art on the feet too, I'm constantly running
around Right.
I was the hostess.
Can you tell?
I mean, I did a great manythings over the years but
towards the end I was the, I wasthe seating host, um, seating
host, hostess, whatnot, um butit also gave you that that cool
connection.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Honestly, I mean, I think that's what I got from
what you said.
Right, the whole thing yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
So I think about like you working with clients, you
know like, and, and just havingthat disposition of you know,
making people feel comfortable.
Cause that was like, that wasyour role and that was my first
experience of you when we wereworking together.
This person knows how to makeme feel comfortable within this
environment.
That was, you know, it wascomplex.
We were discussing things thatwere, you know, in my job I had
(25:17):
to have good questions about,and good curiosity, and you were
like here's the and here is the, and this is what we've got.
And you know it was just.
You know, I can see theconnection.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Always with the hand gestures.
That's the Italian half.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I know, I think we all have some of that going on
in this show.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
We definitely do, okay, so thank you for being
here today.
So let me ask you our lastquestion.
Thank you for being here today.
So let me ask you our lastquestion.
Um, so, we asked this to all ofour guests.
So how is this life event thatwe talked about, this pivot, a
step forward for you?
So what's?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
happening now so many ways.
Um, I learned so much from theentire experience.
Um, you know, I mentionedearlier how it makes me a better
patient, makes me a betterpartner with my doctor.
I really do.
That's where that's my approachis I.
I partner with my doctor on myhealth.
Um, I partner with them to helpme put me on the right path.
Um, and focusing on self-care Ididn't really focus before, um,
(26:14):
and I have been focused a lotmore on that.
Uh, going forward, making sureI take the time I don't just run
myself to the bone anymore.
I will take the time to givemyself the headspace I need to
think about how I'm doing and tomake sure I have the time to
reflect on my day.
I used to do that when I could.
Now I will do that every dayand reflect on not just my goals
(26:38):
for my career or my goals formy next thing I want to
accomplish or my next thing Iwant to acquire, but my goals
for being a better person, beinga better, healthier person and,
very importantly, being as goodof a friend and family member
as they were to me.
I never would have been able tocare for my parents the way I
(27:01):
did.
That gives my heart that peacethat they deserved.
They deserve to be together.
They deserved that they had, um, all the the doctoring and
nursing and aiding and anddaughtering and sunning they
needed.
Um, I wouldn't be able to dothat without my family, without
my friends and without my mycolleagues.
Um, my colleagues and mymanagers at the time were
(27:23):
phenomenal, helping whereverthey could.
I mean, I love the group I workwith.
They're absolutely phenomenal.
So that, and also empathy andwisdom like the wisdom part we
kind of covered.
But empathy, I've always thoughtof myself as a curious person
and having a lot of empathy forother people.
But this kind of situation isso deep that once you've gone
(27:51):
through it, you're always you'regoing to be marked by it,
whether you like it or not.
And, um, but I didn't really Ididn't realize the depth of it.
And and now I think I'm abetter friend to others when
that are going through it,because I do understand the
depth of it.
And now I think I'm a betterfriend to others when they're
going through it, because I dounderstand the depth of it.
I can kind of help steer peopleto, you know, suggestions for
getting things done, you know,or helping them in their journey
(28:14):
so that they don't have to havethe pitfalls and the running
into brick walls that I did.
So I think it makes me a betterthat empathy makes me a better
friend.
I've gotten even deeper empathythan I had before if that was
even possible, but it is.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Oh, those are such deep comments and so beautiful
and you know, and there isheartache in them as you talk
about it and at the same timeyou know it's uplifting.
So it can be both, you know, sospecial and I know, you know
(28:51):
we've talked a lot here about,you know, these heartache and
uplifting situations.
And it feels to me like youknow, on the one hand, obviously
you're here with us, as youknow, in physical form, the only
guest, but in some ways therelationship that you're talking
about is still very much alive,the relationship with your
parents.
I know we chatted a little bitabout that in preparation for
the conversation.
You know, missing them andfeeling them present, um, it's
(29:16):
possible, isn't it, to reallyhave like the sense of they're
right here with us, even thoughyou know we can only see you on
zoom.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I do.
They are, and I've always feltthat way.
And again, I don't know if it'smaybe just a factor of my faith
or just the way my wonderfulparents raised me, but they are.
I am both of them.
They are both with me alwaysand they, even though they are
gone, they are with me every day.
They're in what I do.
They're in I see it in my nieceand nephew's faces, like it's
(29:49):
they are.
They are with me so, and I knowthey're proud of me too.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I'm sure they are.
I'm sure they are Well.
Thank you so much.
What a great conversation we'vehad today.
We really appreciate you beingon.
We really appreciate yousharing this story with us.
I think it's important foreverybody to know and you know,
remember, and you know there'sthere's others you can reach out
to if you do need help, and youknow we can be that friend for
(30:16):
somebody when they need us.
So I think that's that's reallyimportant and I and I love that
part of your story honestly.
So thank you, karen, so muchfor being here with us today.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Thank you so much.
It's always great to share andand maybe this, I'm hoping this
helps someone who maybe it'llhelp somebody who's going
through it and feels they'revery alone.
You know, we're with you, youknow we're with you.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's so great to hear that and I I so appreciate you
being so explicit about it andclear.
You know about that, about thatmessage.
It touches my heart personallya lot.
So thank you so much and thanksfor our listeners and our
viewers and their presence.
And as we conclude today'sepisode, we have our classic
(31:06):
invitation for everybody toremember that if you have a
pivot step into it and if youneed a boost, listen to our
episodes and get inspired by thewonderful folks like Karen who
have done it and keep doing it.
Thank you everyone.
Hello everyone, welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
We're so happy to have you hereagain and we are also happy to
have our friend, karen Zander.
And Karen, we thank you so muchfor being here with us today.
It really is a pleasure and I'mreally excited for our
conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thank you, it's such a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Awesome, so just as a high overview, be here.
Awesome, so just as a highoverview.
Karen is an executive directorof Retirement National Accounts
client advisor at JP Morgan.
So definitely in our amazingindustry.
25 years of experiencespecializing in retirement so
what a great resume, what agreat conversation.
(00:42):
I'm definitely looking forwardto it resume.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
What a great conversation.
I'm definitely looking forwardto it.
Yes, casey, welcome to the show.
We're so happy to have you andI like to highlight, when we
have guests who, for me, were soinstrumental over the course of
my career in helping me feellike I belong and helping me
feel like I am not alone as afemale in a male dominated
(01:09):
industry.
You absolutely were highlightof that kind of, you know, sense
of belonging for me.
Many, many years ago, when wefirst met through work, you were
in conversations where we wereall happy to say together, not
the only woman in the room, theonly two women in the room in,
you know, in several such suchinstances and obviously we
(01:32):
bonded over that experience and,you know, every so often you
would, as we would, you know,get together related to work
events, then would have anopportunity to just check in,
because you know there was asimpatico there right from the
get-go, you would gently sharethat there is, you know,
something on your mind relatedto your parents, or I would ask
(01:56):
you, how are they doing?
And so, over the course of, youknow, quite a few years, I've
had this, you know, honor towitness you walking through your
pivot.
We've invited you on the showto talk about that topic and we
haven't had too many guests, youknow dig deep into it so far.
So please tell us anythingyou'd like us to know about your
(02:19):
major pivot and the series ofmini pivots that you've.
You know you've faced over thelast um, should we say decade.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Life does throw you the curve balls.
That makes you pivot.
That's very true.
And the first thing I would say, too, is thank you for that
lovely introduction and I amhonored that you have been my
friend through the journey.
Um, you know, as I'll probablysay many times throughout our
conversation here, it was thethe support of my friends and
family and that have really beenable to help me get through
(02:47):
that, and I think that's true ofmany people with elder care
responsibilities.
It's very surprising.
You always know, oh yes,parents get older and you know
you're going to have to comestep in and help them, but you
don't really know the extentthat you'll have to go through,
(03:12):
especially if with differentillnesses.
So I had my parents.
Um, my first uh encounter withit was, um, my parents were very
lucky that they were veryhealthy throughout their lives.
God bless them.
Um, my father began havinghealth issues when he was around
75 years old and that wasprobably around 2008.
And I was a late in life child.
So if you're backing into thenumbers, you know I'm not that
old.
But a few years later, but he,his, his, more, his issues were
(03:33):
more, his body was breaking downbut his mind was still sharp as
a tack, versus my mother A fewyears later began showing signs
of dementia and ultimatelyParkinson's disease.
So that's, you know that it'svery different types of stresses
that come with each of those.
Um and and I've always said it'skind of it was a bit of a slow
creep of medical issues overtime.
(03:54):
And you kind of know it, youknow.
You know you're going to haveto face it one day, but you
don't really know what it's likeuntil you're knee deep in it,
especially when it comes tohelping someone with the
challenges of dementia,alzheimer's and Parkinson's.
But, like I was saying to youthe other day, there's a saying
it's a marathon, not a sprint.
But in this case it's like amarathon, running uphill with
(04:17):
each mile going steeper and theplateaus just get further and
further apart and you never knowwhen the plateau is coming.
So you kind of have to enjoy itwhile you can, but it's.
It's not easy navigating thoseend of life situations and
decisions.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
And you know, since we are talking about a marathon,
one thing that I know peoplewho sign up for a marathon do
well, they sign up for it.
I you're not typically justtold to run a marathon without
prep, and that's the other word.
They prep for the marathon.
So can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
You know prep.
(04:52):
So obviously this is notsomething that you, you know you
didn't sign up for this.
And was there something that youwould highlight as you're
thinking, you know, about thatmetaphor that you feel like you
know, maybe prepped you or, youknow, paved the way for you to
be able to, you know, sustainthat uphill marathon and maybe
(05:14):
at this point is a good reminderto just you know, I invoked our
careers.
I talked about, you know, usmeeting through work, but we
wanted to, you know, respect thecontext that we're in here.
You know we are related toretirement industry, financial
services and obviously all ofthe opinions and thoughts and
conversation here.
(05:35):
Those are our opinions andthoughts and comments about our
own journeys as women and, karen, we appreciate you here sharing
as an individual and not onbehalf of, you know, any, any
logo or any organization.
So, you know, thank you forbeing able to do that.
So this is a disclosure foranyone who didn't like to figure
(05:55):
that out.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, I mean there really was.
I was not prepped, I was notready.
I mean, my father's first majormedical issue was stroke, kind
of comes out of left field and Iwasn't expecting it and none of
his previous doctor'sappointments had shown anything
that this.
It just comes up sometimes.
So I wasn't prepped when itstarted.
But then over time I think whathelped was my curiosity.
(06:23):
I've always been a curiousperson, so curiosity and asking
questions has always been mything and or I should say I've
always been a skill of mine.
So that helps when you're tryingto figure out the medical
establishment and differentlanguage different, I mean, it's
(06:47):
english but they spoke inenglish, but it was a different
language, different acronyms,versus the banking world that I
am and the capital world,capital world that I'm so used
to, it's it was a very differentlanguage, but once you started
to get the language, umunderstanding how to then
communicate back in a way, umthat you were able to help
(07:09):
advocate for the my parents withtheir, their medical choices,
um and their decisions, andunderstanding asking the right
questions to get to theinformation we needed to make
the right decision, um.
So asking a lot of questions,um, and and being really
organized, which, over time, youknow, the things that we learn
in in our careers actually dohelp us in organizing other
(07:33):
things as well, um, or just aswomen juggling many, many things
, which I think a lot of us.
I relied a lot on my friends aswell to help me figure out
different ways to juggle um,juggle multiple engagements at
the same time.
So, um, I don't know that I wasreally prepared, but you learn
quick, um, and, and I'm stilllearning.
Even you know a lot of things.
(07:54):
I applied there.
I'm applying to myself when Ihave medical issues.
So I learned a lot, or thethings I learned with my dad
first, and then I was able toapply them for my mom.
So it's it was.
It was definitely a learningprocess.
That's maybe a better person to, maybe a better patient, maybe
a better communicator with mydoctors.
I think I get better treatmentbecause I can communicate the
(08:17):
way I do so.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And probably ask questions, right, cause you
really, you know, we we've hadguests where we talk about how
they have to advocate forthemselves, right, and push to
get the right diagnosis, and andyou're doing that for your
parents, right, like, um, itbecomes it.
It becomes a very interestingprocess.
We moved my husband's dad, uh,to Phoenix from uh, tennessee
(08:42):
because he was living on his ownand even though he's in fairly
good health, um, you know, otherthan having type two diabetes
is really his biggest issue, butit was a retraining him to to
eat better and take care ofhimself and figure out how to do
that.
It's, it's a lot of thosepieces that you know that,
really, then you sit back andyou think about and you said
(09:03):
this, karen, that that, like,then you got to do for yourself
too, right, like it's going tomake you better and make you
think about that.
So, um, I love that you talkedabout that.
I think more people are goingthrough that than we even think
about, or or we'll be goingthrough that in the next few
years, right as as we all getolder, right, and our and our
parents are there, and then youknow, we're going to have to
(09:25):
figure that out for us too atsome point.
So talk maybe a little abouthow that helped in your, your
personal growth, your mental andemotional health journey.
Um, because there's a lot ofthings that go on, a lot of
things that happen when, these,when, when you're faced with
some of this.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
That's very true, Very true.
Um, you know this, this such astrain.
When you balance caregiving,personal life, your mental
wellbeing, it's that's pro.
That was probably especiallywhen things got much worse than
the volume of doctorsappointments and decision-making
and and things kind of all cameto a head, all at a very
(10:08):
similar time.
You know, I I always a um, a doit yourself type of person.
I just get it done, no matter,I'll find a way to work the
extra time, I'll get it done.
Um, so I've always been veryself-reliant, um, and not big on
asking for help.
And it was a humbling time whenI realized I absolutely cannot
(10:29):
do this on my own.
I'm doing, I'm trying to doeverything myself, I'm making a
mess of it and cannot do this onmy own.
I'm doing, I'm trying to doeverything myself, I'm making a
mess of it, and you know, andand I need more than just a
conversation on the phone, Ineed someone in here to help me
every day and or, you know, orat least for this week or two, I
need someone here to help meevery day.
Thankfully, I learned to askfor help and and I learned not
to be ashamed of asking for helpbecause you can't do everything
(10:50):
on your own.
There's some things, no matterwhat kind of wonder woman you
are, there are some things.
You're just not good.
It's just too hard to do on yourown and you do it better, and
that's what I would.
I would always tell myself that, too, you'll do it better and
you'll care for them better ifyou enlist more people in the in
the search, um.
(11:12):
One of the people who wascritical for me was my best
friend, um.
We grew up, we've been bestfriends.
We were three years old, um.
She looked at my, she looked atmy parents, like her parents,
you know.
They were all very close andshe was and she could come in um
in a heartbeat and she was andlive close by, so she was able
to come in a heartbeat to helpme when I needed.
(11:32):
So you know, and you know otherfamily members, um and friends
were were also criticallyhelpful.
So learning to ask for help andto accept that um and not beat
myself up for it that's anotherthing I'm famous for doing to
myself beating myself up.
So I I there's no one harder onme and on me in this world than
myself but I've learned to bebetter at forgiving myself, too,
um on me in this world thanmyself, and I've learned to be
(11:53):
better at forgiving myself, too,um, cause, no matter how, all
you can do is the best you cando sometimes, and it's never
going to be perfect, even thoughyou try to make things as
perfect as you can.
So, uh, asking for help andbeing and being kinder to myself
when things didn't go exactlyhow I wanted them to, I'd say
that that was probably thebiggest learning, and it took me
a long time to learn that.
I should have learned thatquicker.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, you know, what you're saying is exactly right.
I think we all are so hard onourselves and want to do that
and I, I know even I wants tosay something.
I just wanted to say to ourlisteners, too, that I was
actually on a panel a few monthsago about caregiving and there
is an organization out therethat does help people who have
(12:37):
caregiving.
They're like an advocate forthe patient and sometimes they
step in, like if there'sdilemmas between family members,
right, let's say, you had threesisters and you guys couldn't
agree, they will step in andhelp and give the options and
give some recommendations.
I will find out the name of thatand even though we can include
it when we post this podcast forour listeners, because I really
(12:59):
thought it was very cool andvery interesting and you had
your best friend and that'sawesome that a lot of times we
do have somebody to help us.
But what if you don't, or whatif there's problems between the
family members?
When you're trying to figurethis out, right, it gets a lot
harder and it's hard enough tonavigate, much less have all
these other factors.
(13:20):
So I'll find out thatinformation and we will post it
as part of this podcast?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Absolutely, I was lucky too.
It was me and my brother, so Ihave one older brother and we
were pretty much in lockstepwhen it came to and we were
pretty much in lockstep when itcame to understanding what our
parents' wants and needs were,and he backed my play and told
me when he thought I was wrong.
You know, we have a good enoughrelationship, so we were lucky
(13:45):
that way.
But that can be verychallenging when you have
multiple siblings who all care alot for the parents and want to
do the right thing.
It's hard and the decisionsaren't easy.
Decisions who all care a lotfor the parents and and want to
do the right thing.
It's hard and some of the andthe decisions aren't easy.
Decisions and and I, you knowand being doing what we do, like
planning for retirement, it'sall about planning, and I and I
would have these conversationsas I saw them, my parents
(14:06):
getting older.
I, you know, I sat down withthem and I discussed with them.
You know what, ha?
What do you think if thishappens?
What do you think if thathappens?
And we had so I really did know, because I did ask them and
they did express it to me, butthat was then, and then that,
you know, fast forward five or10 years when it started getting
towards the end, especially inthe case of my mother with the
(14:28):
dementia and Parkinson's.
She was there, but she wasn'treally there, right?
So it was a flattening of herpersonality and it was a
flattening of her cognition.
And you know, I think I knowwhat she wanted decision.
When you're the one standing inthe hospital hallways, you know
(14:55):
having to decide.
Is this the time when yourfather goes on hospice care
which means they're not going todo any further message to try
to fix this latest issue?
Um, you know it's, and you're,and you're the one there in the
moment and you're making thedecision, and you're the one
there in the moment and you'remaking the decision.
It's very, very hard.
It's hard to decide which,which medical issues do you
(15:23):
treat.
That was the one that reallyhit me hard trying to figure out
with my mother.
You know you have this issue.
She had this skin abnormalityand I'm having the conversation
with the doctor saying, you know, this is a small skin
abnormality, but to go throughall the tests, to do all these
things, to have all thisuncomfortable stuff done to her
for something that's going totake 10 years to kill her and
(15:45):
she's lucky if she has five more, saying no to that treatment
and being able to live withyourself, you know it's very
that's.
You know it sounds like.
You know that sounds like aneasy calculus when you look at
it on paper, but when it's yourmom, and what if I'm wrong?
What if it's not?
What if the doctors are wrong?
What if it's not five years?
What if she goes for another 10?
(16:05):
And then this is what gets her?
So it's, it's very challenging.
With my dad it was easierbecause he had the cognition, so
, even though he was goingthrough these issues, he, I
could have the conversation withhim, and I did.
Once he had his, he had anissue with his abdominal aortic
valve and and I was sitting withhim at the doctor and I was
(16:26):
saying to the doctor, how willthis, if this ruptures?
What described to me what willhappen?
And I could see my fathervisibly getting pale and I was
visibly getting pale but I said,but what are the odds of this
happening versus an 82 year oldhaving open heart surgery and
all the stuff that could killhim, you know?
(16:47):
But so we decided not to dothat and it was not the
abdominal or an aortic valvethat got him.
So that was the right decision.
But you don't know that in themoment.
So those are deep decisionsthat sometimes you have to make,
actually pretty quickly.
Some of them you have time, butsome of them so.
That's the thing is, no oneprepares you for that, no one
tells you ahead of time and youdon't always know, because this
(17:10):
will come up out of nowhere.
The problem, the medical issue,comes up out of nowhere and
then split second, decide it's,it's one thing if it's you, but
you're deciding for someone else, it's very even if and someone
you love.
I mean, my parents were belovedto me, they were the most
wonderful parents a girl couldask for, and that was the heart,
(17:31):
probably one of the hardestthings making those decisions
and praying.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Wow.
So you talked about, you know,needing to ask for help and
receiving the support andopening up to that.
And then I you know I'mlistening to you talk about this
now and you know the word thatreally comes up for me in
summary of this leadership youhave had to be a leader of this
(17:58):
whole process.
Yes, you mentioned your brother.
He has his own experience.
He had to be a leader of hisown life and his own experiences
.
But I also know that you knowyou were at the crux of a lot of
these decisions and there werea lot of conversations like the
one that you just, you know,highlighted, or a couple that
you just highlighted.
So things that come to mind islike there, you are okay asking
(18:20):
for help, receiving help,changing help when it's not
working, and you're the onestepping into the leadership
mode around.
You know managing your owninternal state.
So that's what would make you aconscious leader.
So, like, what's going on for me?
Am I beating myself up?
Am I being helpful?
Should I get more curious?
Could I get more determined?
(18:40):
Could I ask a better question?
Could I, you know, can I takeinto consideration?
Is this my mom and certainquestions of her are not
pertinent.
Is it my dad?
I should actually ask him toweigh and chime in right now, in
real time, right?
So all of that is like yourinner GPS you know working, and
(19:01):
then you are showcasing projectmanagement skills, time
management skills, peoplemanagement skills, you know.
So, while this may not havebeen something that you like
officially prepped for, I cansee how a lot of different
experiences and things that youhad been exposed to up until
then they do.
(19:21):
We still start to like.
All right, this, like I think Ithink I heard somewhere that
our gender gen x, we like ourtoolbox and dual belt and
research, but I like okay.
So, like I hear you and see youhere with your toolbox, like let
me pull something out, I've gota resource here that might be
helpful, a resource here thatmight be helpful, and I wonder,
(19:47):
a, if that resonates and, b, ifyou can connect that with that
wonderful story that you told uswhen we had a conversation.
You were in the midst of thisand you had just lost your dad,
but your mom was still with youand we were reminiscing about
your time working with them at arestaurant.
Did you know this, teresa?
That Karen's beginnings when itcomes to her work, I think.
(20:10):
But those were the questionsthat I asked you back then.
You know, years ago now, thatall comes from actually being,
uh, in the restaurant businesswith her parents.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I did not know that, so that's very cool actually.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Well, technically it was just my mom and my mom's
family, but my dad was around alot.
He loved to hang out there.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
In fact, he had been friends with my mother's brother
.
That's how they got together inthe neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
My father was friends with her brother.
But, yes, so you're know,you're right.
A lot of tools in the tool beltthat learned over time and, yes
, I absolutely get my work ethicfrom them.
Growing up, my family, mymother's family, had an Italian
restaurant in Queens not farfrom Shea Stadium.
I know it's now called CityField, but I'll always call it
(20:58):
Shea, that's for you Met fansout there Go Mets.
So, um, but, um, yeah, I grew upworking.
Um, I was going to.
You know, I was in high school.
All my friends were going outon a Friday night and my parents
, my parents, would be like, no,you're going to go work first,
you can go out, you can go outafter you get off of work.
So every Friday, saturday,sunday night I was working.
(21:24):
Um, so, yes, I learned a workethic from them and I, um,
although I always said all thewhole time I was working and
going to college, high schooland college.
Thankfully, we the restaurantuh closed and my, my, my parents
retired right after I graduatedcollege.
But, uh, I always said I wanteda nice job that offered
vacation time and very goodhealth insurance things that you
don't get in the restaurantindustry.
(21:45):
So, yes, I definitely learnedmy work ethic from those years
at the retirement.
But it's funny after they'regone, you know the years you
spend and it was great manyyears.
From the time my father firstgot sick to the marathon I ran
(22:06):
was over many, many, many years,um, until, most most recently,
my mom passed away in 2021.
Um, that's why I missed Napathat year, cause she passed away
a couple of days before Napathat year.
Um, but, um, you know, know thehell you go through at the end
and it's indelibly marked andyou never forget it.
(22:26):
But, through the grief andthrough the other side of it, it
was surprised me how quicklythe totality of their lives came
back and you're so focused atthe end with trying to make them
comfortable and give them thedignity they deserve and and
make them as comfortable aspossible and try and get a smile
(22:47):
and, you know, try to bepresent and try to do all these
things and then, once all thatthat you know, you go through
the grief of losing them.
I really was surprised at howquickly that tough part faded
back and because that was at theforefront, that's all I saw.
All I saw was my mother, uh,with as a dementia and Parkinson
and someone I had to help andsomeone I had to carry and
(23:09):
someone I had to treat Um.
But as soon as she passed, allthe rest of it kind of came
forward.
Um, similar with my dad too,like and, and he and he wasn't
as bad.
His and actually happenedfairly quickly.
It wasn't as drawn out as mymom's was.
Um, similar with my dad too,like and, and he and he wasn't
as bad.
His end actually happenedfairly quickly.
It wasn't as drawn out as mymom's was Um.
But for both of them, I mean,I've always I always had the
appreciation of them, even whilethey were living for the
(23:30):
totality of their lives.
But, um, even the trauma ofwhat happened towards the end
went back and all the good stuffcame forward.
I don't know if that's a matterof my heart being at peace or
knowing my, my, I and my familyand friends did the best for
them that we could.
Um, maybe it's part of my faith, maybe it's just part of my
(23:51):
general attitude.
I don't know that.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I wish I had a good answer which one of those it was
probably a little bit of allthree I was going to say it's
probably all of the above.
Honestly, it probably is all ofthe above right, like you have
to have peace that you did thebest you could for them and I
kind of feel it when you'resaying it, that you really do
that.
And I was thinking not to getkind of off because I'm going to
ask you our last question but Iwas thinking, oh, if that
(24:16):
restaurant stayed open, maybeher career would have taken a
whole different turn here.
But I'm totally well, I love tocook and I've considered that a
few times.
But yeah, I agree with you, I'mnot sure I would love those
hours, but but I think it's kindof cool, right.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Like art on the feet too, I'm constantly running
around Right.
I was the hostess.
Can you tell?
I mean, I did a great manythings over the years but
towards the end I was the, I wasthe seating host, um, seating
host, hostess, whatnot, um butit also gave you that that cool
connection.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Honestly, I mean, I think that's what I got from
what you said.
Right, the whole thing yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
So I think about like you working with clients, you
know like, and, and just havingthat disposition of you know,
making people feel comfortable.
Cause that was like, that wasyour role and that was my first
experience of you when we wereworking together.
This person knows how to makeme feel comfortable within this
environment.
That was, you know, it wascomplex.
We were discussing things thatwere, you know, in my job I had
(25:17):
to have good questions about,and good curiosity, and you were
like here's the and here is the, and this is what we've got.
And you know it was just.
You know, I can see theconnection.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Always with the hand gestures.
That's the Italian half.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I know, I think we all have some of that going on
in this show.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
We definitely do, okay, so thank you for being
here today.
So let me ask you our lastquestion.
Thank you for being here today.
So let me ask you our lastquestion.
Um, so, we asked this to all ofour guests.
So how is this life event thatwe talked about, this pivot, a
step forward for you?
So what's?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
happening now so many ways.
Um, I learned so much from theentire experience.
Um, you know, I mentionedearlier how it makes me a better
patient, makes me a betterpartner with my doctor.
I really do.
That's where that's my approachis I.
I partner with my doctor on myhealth.
Um, I partner with them to helpme put me on the right path.
Um, and focusing on self-care Ididn't really focus before, um,
(26:14):
and I have been focused a lotmore on that.
Uh, going forward, making sureI take the time I don't just run
myself to the bone anymore.
I will take the time to givemyself the headspace I need to
think about how I'm doing and tomake sure I have the time to
reflect on my day.
I used to do that when I could.
Now I will do that every dayand reflect on not just my goals
(26:38):
for my career or my goals formy next thing I want to
accomplish or my next thing Iwant to acquire, but my goals
for being a better person, beinga better, healthier person and,
very importantly, being as goodof a friend and family member
as they were to me.
I never would have been able tocare for my parents the way I
(27:01):
did.
That gives my heart that peacethat they deserved.
They deserve to be together.
They deserved that they had, um, all the the doctoring and
nursing and aiding and anddaughtering and sunning they
needed.
Um, I wouldn't be able to dothat without my family, without
my friends and without my mycolleagues.
Um, my colleagues and mymanagers at the time were
(27:23):
phenomenal, helping whereverthey could.
I mean, I love the group I workwith.
They're absolutely phenomenal.
So that, and also empathy andwisdom like the wisdom part we
kind of covered.
But empathy, I've always thoughtof myself as a curious person
and having a lot of empathy forother people.
But this kind of situation isso deep that once you've gone
(27:51):
through it, you're always you'regoing to be marked by it,
whether you like it or not.
And, um, but I didn't really Ididn't realize the depth of it.
And and now I think I'm abetter friend to others when
that are going through it,because I do understand the
depth of it.
And now I think I'm a betterfriend to others when they're
going through it, because I dounderstand the depth of it.
I can kind of help steer peopleto, you know, suggestions for
getting things done, you know,or helping them in their journey
(28:14):
so that they don't have to havethe pitfalls and the running
into brick walls that I did.
So I think it makes me a betterthat empathy makes me a better
friend.
I've gotten even deeper empathythan I had before if that was
even possible, but it is.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Oh, those are such deep comments and so beautiful
and you know, and there isheartache in them as you talk
about it and at the same timeyou know it's uplifting.
So it can be both, you know, sospecial and I know, you know
(28:51):
we've talked a lot here about,you know, these heartache and
uplifting situations.
And it feels to me like youknow, on the one hand, obviously
you're here with us, as youknow, in physical form, the only
guest, but in some ways therelationship that you're talking
about is still very much alive,the relationship with your
parents.
I know we chatted a little bitabout that in preparation for
the conversation.
You know, missing them andfeeling them present, um, it's
(29:16):
possible, isn't it, to reallyhave like the sense of they're
right here with us, even thoughyou know we can only see you on
zoom.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I do.
They are, and I've always feltthat way.
And again, I don't know if it'smaybe just a factor of my faith
or just the way my wonderfulparents raised me, but they are.
I am both of them.
They are both with me alwaysand they, even though they are
gone, they are with me every day.
They're in what I do.
They're in I see it in my nieceand nephew's faces, like it's
(29:49):
they are.
They are with me so, and I knowthey're proud of me too.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I'm sure they are.
I'm sure they are Well.
Thank you so much.
What a great conversation we'vehad today.
We really appreciate you beingon.
We really appreciate yousharing this story with us.
I think it's important foreverybody to know and you know,
remember, and you know there'sthere's others you can reach out
to if you do need help, and youknow we can be that friend for
(30:16):
somebody when they need us.
So I think that's that's reallyimportant and I and I love that
part of your story honestly.
So thank you, karen, so muchfor being here with us today.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Thank you so much.
It's always great to share andand maybe this, I'm hoping this
helps someone who maybe it'llhelp somebody who's going
through it and feels they'revery alone.
You know, we're with you, youknow we're with you.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's so great to hear that and I I so appreciate you
being so explicit about it andclear.
You know about that, about thatmessage.
It touches my heart personallya lot.
So thank you so much and thanksfor our listeners and our
viewers and their presence.
And as we conclude today'sepisode, we have our classic
(31:06):
invitation for everybody toremember that if you have a
pivot step into it and if youneed a boost, listen to our
episodes and get inspired by thewonderful folks like Karen who
have done it and keep doing it.
Thank you everyone.
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