February 14, 2025 • 31 mins
Ever wonder what makes love last? This Valentine's Day, we’re thrilled to have Canadian psychologist Kathleen Henderson with us to unravel the mystery of successful relationships. Kathleen shares how addressing individual issues within the framework of couples therapy can be transformative. She emphasizes the power of slowing down emotional reactions to uncover underlying feelings, which can break cycles of misunderstanding.
The conversation serves as a mirror for therapists as well as clients, highlighting how their own development can intertwine with the progress of the people they help. Join us for a heartfelt reflection on the universal principle of practicing what we teach, and gather inspiration for embracing change and growth in your relationships.
Guest Bio:
Kathleen Henderson is a registered psychologist from Canada - a therapist specializing in helping couples reconnect and strengthen their relationships. Using a collaborative approach, Kathleen focuses on identifying and transforming patterns of communication that may cause disconnection.
Kathleen practices Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), a method backed by research showing significant improvement in over 80% of relationships.
Committed to providing quality care, Kathleen encourages individuals and couples to seek evidence-based approaches to therapy and to prioritize finding the right fit in a therapist to meet their unique needs.
Connect with Kathleen:
psychologytoday.com
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Connect with Theresa and Ivana:
Theresa, True Strategy Consultants: tsc-consultants.com
LinkedIn @treeconti, Insta @tscconsultants
Ivana, Courageous Being: courageousbeing.com
LinkedIn @ivipol, Insta @courbeing
SITP team, Step Into The Pivot: stepintothepivot.com
LinkedIn @step-into-the-pivot, YouTube @StepIntoThePivot
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot, andtoday is Valentine's.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Day.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
So happy Valentine's Day to everybody, as a
Valentine's Day gift to all ofour listeners we have a fabulous
guest, kathleen Henderson.
So, kathleen, thank you so muchfor being here today.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Well, thank you for having me.
It's really delightful way tospend some time.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, I think we'll have some fun conversation today
.
So Kathleen and I got to meet.
She's known Evie for quite awhile and we got to meet a few
months ago and spend some timetogether at a fabulous women's
retreat.
That Courage is being put on afabulous women's retreat.
That Courage is being put on.
(00:49):
And Kathleen is a psychologistand from Canada, so you know,
out of our typical box, but shespecializes in helping couples
to reconnect and strengthentheir relationships, which, in
my mind, no matter how longyou've been married, everybody
can use.
That.
Everybody can use having thatsort of conversation, that
reconnection, all those kinds ofthings.
(01:09):
So I'm really excited about ourconversation today, even now.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Hey, Kathleen, so great to see you.
It's so great to be heretogether.
Yeah, great to be with you too,Evie.
Love expert and you know Teresamentioned the word marriage and
you know, having had thepleasure and the honor and the
wonderful experience of chattingwith you about relationships
for a long time now we've knowneach other for a few years I
(01:37):
know that you have so muchamazing wisdom to share for
anyone.
You know wherever for folk,folks are in the relationship
journey, whether they are single, whether they're partnered,
whether they're thinking aboutbeing partnered, whether they've
been in a relationship for avery long time thinking about
deconstructing it.
You've got, you've, you've seenit all in your in your long
(02:00):
career and you're also you know,you're a very attuned human
being.
You have a big life, you have alot of people in your life, so
you have a lot of experienceswith relationships and love.
And I'm curious, as we getstarted, would you please tell
us about your own life and whatmajor pivot in your life led you
(02:20):
to decide to focus on workingwith couples and working with
relationships?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, when I think back to this, you know the pivot
moment.
It comes down to a lovely manby the name of Fred.
Fred Worsfeld, who was a socialworker, was a social worker
he's since passed but prior tobeing a psychologist I worked in
adult education and I wasworking primarily in upgrading
(02:49):
and English as a second language, mostly teaching English to
refugees, immigrants and peoplewho had just kind of dropped out
at the high school level or soin the regular Canadian system,
school level or so in theregular Canadian system.
(03:10):
And Fred, at the college, ran acourse that he called
Communications 007.
And I don't know how he managedto get it funded and keep
having it funded, because it didnot lead anywhere, you know, in
terms of what governmentusually likes to see.
But in this course he wasteaching interpersonal
communication skills and he hadit structured kind of as a group
(03:35):
experience and people in theclass grew very bonded and he
was looking for somebody tomentor because he was on his way
out the door in terms ofretiring and so he mentored me
in that and teaching thoseinterpersonal skills.
Although I'd always foundteaching English really
(03:55):
rewarding, this was like nextlevel, you know, when you have a
parent coming back and saying Itried that, I tried that with
my kids and we had a greatconversation and we're not
fighting anymore.
And so that was really thepivotal moment for me.
And at that point I decided youknow, if I'm going to be doing
(04:16):
what was coming in sometimesclose to group therapy, I should
get some training.
And so I went back to schooland got a master's in counseling
and completed my registration,the lengthy registration process
to become a psychologist inAlberta.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I love your calmness, so I can totally see you
working with couples right.
You're kind of off the wall alittle bit.
I can see that happening too,so let's talk for a minute.
You know you've now been doingthis for for quite a long time,
you know, and relationships areare interesting, and I feel
(04:56):
relationships are evolvingalways evolving always
potentially changing all thosekinds of things.
So can you talk a little aboutthat and what you really feel
makes a good relationshipsucceed or fall apart?
I mean there's both, and Iguess too, do you feel sometimes
it's better that they fallapart?
(05:16):
I would love to hear yourperspective on that a little bit
.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Maybe you don't feel that way, but Well, with the
type of therapy that I do, it'sreally grounded in attachment
theory and systems theory andkind of the humanistic
experiential therapies likegestalt, for example, and and so
(05:39):
the premise that I'm alwaysworking from is that bonding is
our main survival strategy as aspecies.
And because it's our mainsurvival strategy, there's a
part of our brain that is alwayson the lookout for is the bond
(05:59):
okay, is the bond good, is itsecure, is it safe?
And when we get a signal thatit's not okay, survival level
responses come into play.
So we're talking about fight,flight, fawn, faint, freeze, all
(06:23):
of those responses.
And if those responses arehappening enough in a
relationship, they start to havekind of a cascading effect.
So, for example, one persongoes into a fight response, you
know they show frustration, theyshow anger, and then the other
(06:45):
person gets scared by that andthey go into a freeze or a
withdraw a flight response.
And then the more the persongoes into the flight response,
the more agitated the persontypically with the fight
response gets, because theyreally want to engage, typically
(07:06):
with the fight response gets,because they really want to
engage.
You know the anger is aboutlet's solve this, let's work
through this, let's do it.
What makes for a badrelationship is really too much
nervous system dysregulation, isbeing too often in that state
and then kind of having all ofthe behaviors that come out of
that state.
(07:26):
So you know, I could describeto you a couple that's really in
distress.
They would be feeling isolatedfrom each other.
They would be kind ofhypervigilant to threat cues.
To threat cues.
(07:59):
They would feel quite passiveor helpless about altering the
trajectory of the flaws.
And a couple who is thriving, acouple with a secure bond that's
not experiencing so muchnervous system dysregulation,
will be authentically connected.
(08:23):
They will be emotionally openand they will take emotional
risks with each other.
They'll be speaking whenthey're expressing emotion.
It'll be coming more from theirlongings, more from their more
vulnerable emotions rather thanprotective emotions like anger.
They will realize that theyco-create the emotional weather
(08:48):
in the relationship and they'llbe focused not on the other
person's faults but on owninghow they might be making it kind
of difficult for their partnerto demonstrate care to
demonstrate care, you know, toactually meet the needs that
they're longing to have met.
And rather than focusing onflaws, they're going to focus on
(09:17):
discovering and expressingtheir own fears and longings,
miles apart and in terms of youknow, should all couples kind of
make it work?
I think in my experience, whencouples have completely detached
, there's no coming back.
(09:39):
And I would say if there's asevere personality disorder,
which is not all that common,then maybe not, but for most
couples I think they kind ofthrow in the towel too early, if
you want my honest opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, I love that.
You said that.
You said so many things thatresonated with me, but I think
you're right.
I think people do said that.
You said so many things thatresonate with me, but I think
you're right.
I think people do throw in thetowel.
I've been married for almost 40years, which is crazy to think
about, but you think back tothose early years.
There were different pressuresand different things, but I
loved what you talked aboutabout the bonding.
(10:21):
That just resonated with that.
Just that just resonated withme.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
This is deeply interesting to me, always has
been.
I feel like I've been, you know, you know wanting to have these
kinds of relationships my wholelife, you know, from from when
I was first observing my eldershaving relationships and it was
like, why is he sleeping in adifferent room?
And you know, know, I rememberbeing a little girl and
wondering like, why are mygrandma and grandpa not sleeping
(10:47):
together?
And then why is my mom alwayssmiling when my dad is really
upset and when I think thingslike that?
So this has been really alwaysso, um, so deeply interesting to
me.
And um, one thing you were just, you were describing the uh,
what sounds like a cycle or asystem when, system, when people
are sort of like looping aroundthese.
(11:09):
You've taught me to think about, you know, oh and ouch moments
in the relationship.
So maybe we can put a pin inthere and if you can come back
to oh and ouch, that could bereally interesting to examine.
But I wanna hear more about thispart where you said in a couple
that is somewhere in theprocess you didn't use this word
(11:31):
but it comes up for me in ahealing process and they are now
able to look at their end ofthe system.
Their part of the cycle Soundsto me like that requires some
personal responsibility and some.
You know there is a certainthing that's happening within
that individual while stillstaying in the system.
(11:55):
So not leaving, not bailing,being in the system but being
somehow in more contained andresponsible for their own
nervous system.
You talked about the nervoussystem.
Yes, do I have that right?
And you know from yourexperience, then, how?
How does people's individualpersonal growth play into the,
you know, thriving or or not oftheir relationship?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
This is really an interesting question to me and I
see so many, so many coupleswho are in distress come to me
and they and they'll come sayingI think we need to do our
individual work first and I'mlike no, no, because really we
(12:48):
all grow best in the context ofrelationship, crucible of both
friction and reflection and theimmediate feedback mechanism of
you know how what we're saying,you're doing is impacting our
(13:09):
partner.
So I'm actually a big believerin that people can do their
quote individual work better incouples therapy.
Very often, most often, and um,part of that is that you know,
(13:33):
if you look at what bringspeople to a psychologist, 95 of
the time it's relational, itthey want to know how to have
better relationships, they'restruggling in relationships and
so you know why would I try towork with that person kind of
(13:54):
individually when I can workwith them, with their most
important person in the world inthe room, and I can see in real
time, in live time, thetriggers that come alive, those
ouch and uh-oh moments, and wecan work with it within the
context of their most importantbond.
(14:15):
So I think the individual work,you know, when I'm working with
couples and in emotionallyfocused therapy we always talk
about within and between Right.
So there's an emotional processthat's going on within Right
(14:35):
and then the emotions andbehaviors that are happening in
that process are then, with youknow, translated kind of into
the couple.
And then there's the between.
So when I'm doing the individualwork in a couple session it
(14:58):
will really be about slowingdown the moment, like those
moments of distress when thenervous system gets dysregulated
and we perceive this threat tothe bond.
They happen like that and thepeople aren't even really aware
of everything that's happeningin that moment.
(15:19):
So we slow it down, we put itunder the microscope, we examine
what was the trigger?
How did it immediately hit mybody?
That's where we'll talk aboutan ouch or an uh-oh.
Did it land as alarm or fear, ormore in the range of hurt?
It's usually going to be one orthe other combination of both.
(15:42):
And then we'll look at well,what does that hurt make you do?
What would your partner see onthe outside when you're feeling
this fear or this hurt on theinside?
And it'll almost always, it'spretty predictable it's going to
be fight, slight, freeze,appease, you know so it'll be
(16:06):
the.
You know they'll hear my voicego up.
They'll see me gettingfrustrated, you know.
They'll see me shut down.
They'll see me leave the room.
They'll see me go quiet.
They'll see me just smile likeyour you, like your mother, what
you're talking about, yeah,yeah you mentioned faint when
you were first um organizing it.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Can you explain for our audience what faint is,
because I think we know fightflight, freeze sat down, just
like you'll see people goinginto kind of a collapse.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
You know, know, sometimes, you know, I remember
interactions with my now formerhusband.
You know, before I learnedabout EFT and negative cycles
and we'd be in a negative cycleand I would see him almost
literally like going to sleep,like looking drowsy, that's
faint.
That's the response of, youknow, the rabbit just before
(17:04):
it's captured or as it'scaptured by the prey, it goes
limp and it's flooded withopioids to make the moment of
death more endurable.
So that gives you an idea ofthe degree of distress that
comes up oh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And all those f words , like, like you know, we think
when you, when you think aboutthe f words and all those, not
the f word, but all thosedifferent kinds of like it's
true, though I think back onsome of the conflicts and stuff,
and it's true, like, dependingon what's said will depend on
(17:48):
what you do, right, I mean, andI think that's true of everybody
, and sometimes recognizing thatis the hardest thing from both,
like that's what I got from you, like you said because and I
think that's definitelydefinitely true- the revelation
for couples usually comes in themoment that you know.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I can kind of help them identify what they're
feeling underneath the reactionand they recognize oh, in that
moment I'm feeling.
I'm really feeling fear.
But that's not what my partneris seeing.
My partner is seeing anger.
I'm not giving a clearemotional signal.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, right, and and we don't, like I think a lot of
times you you don't, especiallyin that moment, like like I love
how you said slow it down andthink about it so that you can
be clear in what.
What works right, it's, it's, Idon't know.
That really spoke to me becauseI think that's true and I think
(18:49):
that's something that you know.
You just immediately get angryand just you know that fight
comes out.
Well, at least in me.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And then the partner is just going to perceive oh,
he's mad at me, she's mad at me,yeah, so this is where the
cycle comes in.
So you know, one person goesinto the fight.
Response they get angry, thepartner takes it in.
As you know, she's mad at me.
It's actually more often thewoman that goes to the anger
(19:22):
than a man does.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I can see that picture.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
You know, but he'll take it and she's you know she's
mad at me and it'll go into Ican't get anything right feeling
like a failure and thenshutting down and her anger is
looking for a response.
(19:48):
So the more he shuts down, themore there's kind of panic that
comes up about I can't reach him, I'm not being heard.
I might also get defensiveabout I can't reach him, I'm not
being heard, I might also getdefensive.
The gender roles could be, youknow, interchanged, but in most
couples the pattern I see mostoften is that in heterosexual
(20:15):
couples that the woman iswanting to engage to kind of
mitigate the distress, thestress response, and the guy is
wanting to take a step back tobring the stress response down.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, it's interesting to think about the
patterns and the trends that yousee and some of the comments
you can make from just having somuch experience.
And can you comment and thetrends that you see and some of
the comments you can make from,you know, just having so much
experience?
And can you comment on the factthat when people are in it, it
feels so like, oh my God, it'sjust us, this is us, this is
here's what's happening, but youare like in every other couple
I work with.
It's not unique?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
No, it's not unique.
It's not unique.
No, it's not unique.
I think sometimes people thinkI'm a little psychic when I'm
working, because I do use andit's one of the techniques is we
use conjecture, which means wemake an educated guess as to
what's going on, and we do thatreally to try to give words to
(21:17):
the experience that peoplehaven't been able to articulate
and kind of always with is itlike this and you know, am I
getting it right?
Um, but they'll be like yeah,you've got it like like that,
and, and it's because there arereally only so many ways that
can go right, right, the, thepattern recognition kicks in
(21:38):
after a while.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And I'd love to like mention here that it's like it's
really in my experience.
There are only so many waysthings can go when we are riding
that negative cycle.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's where there is a limited number of options and
that's why you can be in thatstate of I can predict here what
where we're going next, becausethat is so circular and so this
state depends on this state,and then they keep reactivating
there's a predictable rigidityof responses or a constriction
of responses, and, and so youknow a big part of my work is
(22:12):
just helping people find newmoves, new responses and and
bringing more flexibility into aclosed system.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
That's what I was going to say.
When you get to that placewhere you're saying like, wait,
how am I here making it moredifficult for my partner to be
operating from a basis of caring?
Am I operating from a basis ofcaring?
All of a sudden, we're nolonger riding that loop-de-loop
and there is creativity.
Now a lot of new things canemerge, and I just want to bring
(22:42):
us back to that conversationabout individual work and
couples work and say that fromwhat I heard you say is like do
it, do it in the relationship,within the relationship, look at
the system and work on your endof the system by being in it
(23:02):
and work on your end of thesystem by being in it.
That doesn't mean that we cannotreally be taking our
relationship experiences furtherby taking an independent look
at what is going on with us whennobody's in the room.
Right, if I start to understandmy fight and flight and freeze
responses based on my trauma andmy history, when my partner is
(23:24):
nowhere in the room, I am goingto be able to show up, in that
you know couple's work moreopenly.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So just wanted to clarify that.
That's very helpful.
That's very helpful, yeah, andmost often the triggers will
come when the other person's inthe room, for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
We are almost out of time, but I, before we go to our
final question, I do want toask you can you know there I'm
sure you you've witnessed shiftsin couples who come to you for
help, right?
Can you share, like one of yourbiggest or favorite kind of aha
moments from your work?
I think that's such, I thinkour listeners would love to, to
(24:04):
hear the great end result thatyou may have gotten from from
one of your couples.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I don't think that I can distill it down into like
one couple, because this happensso predictably.
OK, well, give us your favorite,big, big picture one right that
you see, most often in generalmaybe, it's like the the moment
is when I see somebody movingfrom that vigilant, you know, uh
(24:33):
, unwilling to riskvulnerability place and and I
see a couple that has been justat each other and blaming each
other and trigger, trigger,trigger, you know, going into
stress response.
And the first moment that one ofthem turns to the other with
(24:55):
vulnerability and says, you know, when you see me, other with
vulnerability and says, you know, when you see me, when you see
me or hear me, you know harpingabout the dishwasher, what's
really happening for me on theinside is I'm scared that you
don't care.
And I see their partner tear up, you know, and that's the
(25:19):
beginning.
That's the beginning ofbreaking the cycle.
And from there, those momentsof tender, authentic connection
start to build on each other,connection start to build on
(25:42):
each other and the couple kindof finds their way out of that
negative cycle, never goes awaycompletely, but they find a way
to really contain it and nothave it take up so much room in
their relationship and they findtheir way back to each other.
And for me, that's what keepsme working in this.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I'm just now imagining the couple and being
like, oh, that is so wonderful.
I know you mentioned in thepast, when we talked about it,
the word reach.
You know like there is areaching happening and I just
love that there's so much warmthin that yeah, they give a
really clear, uh distilledemotional signal.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
They reach to their partner from from uh, that
undefended place.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yes, and since we're reaching the end of our
conversation right now, wewanted to bring this back to you
when you were just nicelyactually setting this up.
You know saying that you havean experience too, in that
moment, when there is thatconnection happening from the
place of this powerfulvulnerability.
How is working with couples foryou the step into the pivot
(27:02):
that you took when you decidedto work with relationships?
How has all of this been a stepforward for you?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Well, it's always an interesting experience working
with a couple and seeing themoves they make in the negative
cycle and some of the distortedmeanings they make of their
partner's actions and saying, oh, I think I do that too.
That's one of my moves, oh, youknow.
(27:30):
So you know, one of my earlymentors said it's a great
privilege to be paid to do yourown work.
I like that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I think that's a very cool.
Can you say that one more timefor our listeners?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It's a great privilege.
You know it's a wonderful thingto be paid to do your own work.
To get paid to do your own workyeah, you know I think any good
therapist is constantly doingtheir own work, but seeing
couples, it's like I, a mirrorkeeps getting held back up to me
(28:10):
too.
Right, I'm holding up a mirrorfor the couple of what's
happening.
They're holding up a mirror tome too.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, Awesome, Such a fantastic conversation.
Thank you so much, Kathleen.
I've enjoyed, you know, gettingto spend some time with you
both in person and now on thepodcast, and I think this is a
really fantastic message and afantastic reminder.
You know, no matter what kindof relationship you're in, you
(28:39):
know these are all importantthings to to work on continually
.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, I'm happy to bring that point forward too,
because everything that we talkabout in a pulse work it
translates to every otherrelationship too.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, well, it's been lovely chatting with the two of
you.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
You're most welcome.
Like you're saying, ittranslates everywhere, and I'm
thinking about how this idea ofyou know, practicing what we
teach is everyone's invited todo that, and we're all holding
up mirrors for each other allday long.
So thank you for reminding usof that.
We so appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, thanks again, kathleen.
Great to have you on.
Thanks to all our listeners forlistening this week.
Enjoy your Valentine's day and,uh, we will be back, uh, in a
couple of weeks, um, and withanother great guest.
And remember if you have apivot step into it.
Hello everybody, welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot, andtoday is Valentine's.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Day.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
So happy Valentine's Day to everybody, as a
Valentine's Day gift to all ofour listeners we have a fabulous
guest, kathleen Henderson.
So, kathleen, thank you so muchfor being here today.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Well, thank you for having me.
It's really delightful way tospend some time.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, I think we'll have some fun conversation today
.
So Kathleen and I got to meet.
She's known Evie for quite awhile and we got to meet a few
months ago and spend some timetogether at a fabulous women's
retreat.
That Courage is being put on afabulous women's retreat.
That Courage is being put on.
(00:49):
And Kathleen is a psychologistand from Canada, so you know,
out of our typical box, but shespecializes in helping couples
to reconnect and strengthentheir relationships, which, in
my mind, no matter how longyou've been married, everybody
can use.
That.
Everybody can use having thatsort of conversation, that
reconnection, all those kinds ofthings.
(01:09):
So I'm really excited about ourconversation today, even now.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Hey, Kathleen, so great to see you.
It's so great to be heretogether.
Yeah, great to be with you too,Evie.
Love expert and you know Teresamentioned the word marriage and
you know, having had thepleasure and the honor and the
wonderful experience of chattingwith you about relationships
for a long time now we've knowneach other for a few years I
(01:37):
know that you have so muchamazing wisdom to share for
anyone.
You know wherever for folk,folks are in the relationship
journey, whether they are single, whether they're partnered,
whether they're thinking aboutbeing partnered, whether they've
been in a relationship for avery long time thinking about
deconstructing it.
You've got, you've, you've seenit all in your in your long
(02:00):
career and you're also you know,you're a very attuned human
being.
You have a big life, you have alot of people in your life, so
you have a lot of experienceswith relationships and love.
And I'm curious, as we getstarted, would you please tell
us about your own life and whatmajor pivot in your life led you
(02:20):
to decide to focus on workingwith couples and working with
relationships?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, when I think back to this, you know the pivot
moment.
It comes down to a lovely manby the name of Fred.
Fred Worsfeld, who was a socialworker, was a social worker
he's since passed but prior tobeing a psychologist I worked in
adult education and I wasworking primarily in upgrading
(02:49):
and English as a second language, mostly teaching English to
refugees, immigrants and peoplewho had just kind of dropped out
at the high school level or soin the regular Canadian system,
school level or so in theregular Canadian system.
(03:10):
And Fred, at the college, ran acourse that he called
Communications 007.
And I don't know how he managedto get it funded and keep
having it funded, because it didnot lead anywhere, you know, in
terms of what governmentusually likes to see.
But in this course he wasteaching interpersonal
communication skills and he hadit structured kind of as a group
(03:35):
experience and people in theclass grew very bonded and he
was looking for somebody tomentor because he was on his way
out the door in terms ofretiring and so he mentored me
in that and teaching thoseinterpersonal skills.
Although I'd always foundteaching English really
(03:55):
rewarding, this was like nextlevel, you know, when you have a
parent coming back and saying Itried that, I tried that with
my kids and we had a greatconversation and we're not
fighting anymore.
And so that was really thepivotal moment for me.
And at that point I decided youknow, if I'm going to be doing
(04:16):
what was coming in sometimesclose to group therapy, I should
get some training.
And so I went back to schooland got a master's in counseling
and completed my registration,the lengthy registration process
to become a psychologist inAlberta.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I love your calmness, so I can totally see you
working with couples right.
You're kind of off the wall alittle bit.
I can see that happening too,so let's talk for a minute.
You know you've now been doingthis for for quite a long time,
you know, and relationships areare interesting, and I feel
(04:56):
relationships are evolvingalways evolving always
potentially changing all thosekinds of things.
So can you talk a little aboutthat and what you really feel
makes a good relationshipsucceed or fall apart?
I mean there's both, and Iguess too, do you feel sometimes
it's better that they fallapart?
(05:16):
I would love to hear yourperspective on that a little bit
.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Maybe you don't feel that way, but Well, with the
type of therapy that I do, it'sreally grounded in attachment
theory and systems theory andkind of the humanistic
experiential therapies likegestalt, for example, and and so
(05:39):
the premise that I'm alwaysworking from is that bonding is
our main survival strategy as aspecies.
And because it's our mainsurvival strategy, there's a
part of our brain that is alwayson the lookout for is the bond
(05:59):
okay, is the bond good, is itsecure, is it safe?
And when we get a signal thatit's not okay, survival level
responses come into play.
So we're talking about fight,flight, fawn, faint, freeze, all
(06:23):
of those responses.
And if those responses arehappening enough in a
relationship, they start to havekind of a cascading effect.
So, for example, one persongoes into a fight response, you
know they show frustration, theyshow anger, and then the other
(06:45):
person gets scared by that andthey go into a freeze or a
withdraw a flight response.
And then the more the persongoes into the flight response,
the more agitated the persontypically with the fight
response gets, because theyreally want to engage, typically
(07:06):
with the fight response gets,because they really want to
engage.
You know the anger is aboutlet's solve this, let's work
through this, let's do it.
What makes for a badrelationship is really too much
nervous system dysregulation, isbeing too often in that state
and then kind of having all ofthe behaviors that come out of
that state.
(07:26):
So you know, I could describeto you a couple that's really in
distress.
They would be feeling isolatedfrom each other.
They would be kind ofhypervigilant to threat cues.
To threat cues.
(07:59):
They would feel quite passiveor helpless about altering the
trajectory of the flaws.
And a couple who is thriving, acouple with a secure bond that's
not experiencing so muchnervous system dysregulation,
will be authentically connected.
(08:23):
They will be emotionally openand they will take emotional
risks with each other.
They'll be speaking whenthey're expressing emotion.
It'll be coming more from theirlongings, more from their more
vulnerable emotions rather thanprotective emotions like anger.
They will realize that theyco-create the emotional weather
(08:48):
in the relationship and they'llbe focused not on the other
person's faults but on owninghow they might be making it kind
of difficult for their partnerto demonstrate care to
demonstrate care, you know, toactually meet the needs that
they're longing to have met.
And rather than focusing onflaws, they're going to focus on
(09:17):
discovering and expressingtheir own fears and longings,
miles apart and in terms of youknow, should all couples kind of
make it work?
I think in my experience, whencouples have completely detached
, there's no coming back.
(09:39):
And I would say if there's asevere personality disorder,
which is not all that common,then maybe not, but for most
couples I think they kind ofthrow in the towel too early, if
you want my honest opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, I love that.
You said that.
You said so many things thatresonated with me, but I think
you're right.
I think people do said that.
You said so many things thatresonate with me, but I think
you're right.
I think people do throw in thetowel.
I've been married for almost 40years, which is crazy to think
about, but you think back tothose early years.
There were different pressuresand different things, but I
loved what you talked aboutabout the bonding.
(10:21):
That just resonated with that.
Just that just resonated withme.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
This is deeply interesting to me, always has
been.
I feel like I've been, you know, you know wanting to have these
kinds of relationships my wholelife, you know, from from when
I was first observing my eldershaving relationships and it was
like, why is he sleeping in adifferent room?
And you know, know, I rememberbeing a little girl and
wondering like, why are mygrandma and grandpa not sleeping
(10:47):
together?
And then why is my mom alwayssmiling when my dad is really
upset and when I think thingslike that?
So this has been really alwaysso, um, so deeply interesting to
me.
And um, one thing you were just, you were describing the uh,
what sounds like a cycle or asystem when, system, when people
are sort of like looping aroundthese.
(11:09):
You've taught me to think about, you know, oh and ouch moments
in the relationship.
So maybe we can put a pin inthere and if you can come back
to oh and ouch, that could bereally interesting to examine.
But I wanna hear more about thispart where you said in a couple
that is somewhere in theprocess you didn't use this word
(11:31):
but it comes up for me in ahealing process and they are now
able to look at their end ofthe system.
Their part of the cycle Soundsto me like that requires some
personal responsibility and some.
You know there is a certainthing that's happening within
that individual while stillstaying in the system.
(11:55):
So not leaving, not bailing,being in the system but being
somehow in more contained andresponsible for their own
nervous system.
You talked about the nervoussystem.
Yes, do I have that right?
And you know from yourexperience, then, how?
How does people's individualpersonal growth play into the,
you know, thriving or or not oftheir relationship?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
This is really an interesting question to me and I
see so many, so many coupleswho are in distress come to me
and they and they'll come sayingI think we need to do our
individual work first and I'mlike no, no, because really we
(12:48):
all grow best in the context ofrelationship, crucible of both
friction and reflection and theimmediate feedback mechanism of
you know how what we're saying,you're doing is impacting our
(13:09):
partner.
So I'm actually a big believerin that people can do their
quote individual work better incouples therapy.
Very often, most often, and um,part of that is that you know,
(13:33):
if you look at what bringspeople to a psychologist, 95 of
the time it's relational, itthey want to know how to have
better relationships, they'restruggling in relationships and
so you know why would I try towork with that person kind of
(13:54):
individually when I can workwith them, with their most
important person in the world inthe room, and I can see in real
time, in live time, thetriggers that come alive, those
ouch and uh-oh moments, and wecan work with it within the
context of their most importantbond.
(14:15):
So I think the individual work,you know, when I'm working with
couples and in emotionallyfocused therapy we always talk
about within and between Right.
So there's an emotional processthat's going on within Right
(14:35):
and then the emotions andbehaviors that are happening in
that process are then, with youknow, translated kind of into
the couple.
And then there's the between.
So when I'm doing the individualwork in a couple session it
(14:58):
will really be about slowingdown the moment, like those
moments of distress when thenervous system gets dysregulated
and we perceive this threat tothe bond.
They happen like that and thepeople aren't even really aware
of everything that's happeningin that moment.
(15:19):
So we slow it down, we put itunder the microscope, we examine
what was the trigger?
How did it immediately hit mybody?
That's where we'll talk aboutan ouch or an uh-oh.
Did it land as alarm or fear, ormore in the range of hurt?
It's usually going to be one orthe other combination of both.
(15:42):
And then we'll look at well,what does that hurt make you do?
What would your partner see onthe outside when you're feeling
this fear or this hurt on theinside?
And it'll almost always, it'spretty predictable it's going to
be fight, slight, freeze,appease, you know so it'll be
(16:06):
the.
You know they'll hear my voicego up.
They'll see me gettingfrustrated, you know.
They'll see me shut down.
They'll see me leave the room.
They'll see me go quiet.
They'll see me just smile likeyour you, like your mother, what
you're talking about, yeah,yeah you mentioned faint when
you were first um organizing it.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Can you explain for our audience what faint is,
because I think we know fightflight, freeze sat down, just
like you'll see people goinginto kind of a collapse.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
You know, know, sometimes, you know, I remember
interactions with my now formerhusband.
You know, before I learnedabout EFT and negative cycles
and we'd be in a negative cycleand I would see him almost
literally like going to sleep,like looking drowsy, that's
faint.
That's the response of, youknow, the rabbit just before
(17:04):
it's captured or as it'scaptured by the prey, it goes
limp and it's flooded withopioids to make the moment of
death more endurable.
So that gives you an idea ofthe degree of distress that
comes up oh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And all those f words , like, like you know, we think
when you, when you think aboutthe f words and all those, not
the f word, but all thosedifferent kinds of like it's
true, though I think back onsome of the conflicts and stuff,
and it's true, like, dependingon what's said will depend on
(17:48):
what you do, right, I mean, andI think that's true of everybody
, and sometimes recognizing thatis the hardest thing from both,
like that's what I got from you, like you said because and I
think that's definitelydefinitely true- the revelation
for couples usually comes in themoment that you know.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I can kind of help them identify what they're
feeling underneath the reactionand they recognize oh, in that
moment I'm feeling.
I'm really feeling fear.
But that's not what my partneris seeing.
My partner is seeing anger.
I'm not giving a clearemotional signal.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, right, and and we don't, like I think a lot of
times you you don't, especiallyin that moment, like like I love
how you said slow it down andthink about it so that you can
be clear in what.
What works right, it's, it's, Idon't know.
That really spoke to me becauseI think that's true and I think
(18:49):
that's something that you know.
You just immediately get angryand just you know that fight
comes out.
Well, at least in me.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And then the partner is just going to perceive oh,
he's mad at me, she's mad at me,yeah, so this is where the
cycle comes in.
So you know, one person goesinto the fight.
Response they get angry, thepartner takes it in.
As you know, she's mad at me.
It's actually more often thewoman that goes to the anger
(19:22):
than a man does.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I can see that picture.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
You know, but he'll take it and she's you know she's
mad at me and it'll go into Ican't get anything right feeling
like a failure and thenshutting down and her anger is
looking for a response.
(19:48):
So the more he shuts down, themore there's kind of panic that
comes up about I can't reach him, I'm not being heard.
I might also get defensiveabout I can't reach him, I'm not
being heard, I might also getdefensive.
The gender roles could be, youknow, interchanged, but in most
couples the pattern I see mostoften is that in heterosexual
(20:15):
couples that the woman iswanting to engage to kind of
mitigate the distress, thestress response, and the guy is
wanting to take a step back tobring the stress response down.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, it's interesting to think about the
patterns and the trends that yousee and some of the comments
you can make from just having somuch experience.
And can you comment and thetrends that you see and some of
the comments you can make from,you know, just having so much
experience?
And can you comment on the factthat when people are in it, it
feels so like, oh my God, it'sjust us, this is us, this is
here's what's happening, but youare like in every other couple
I work with.
It's not unique?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
No, it's not unique.
It's not unique.
No, it's not unique.
I think sometimes people thinkI'm a little psychic when I'm
working, because I do use andit's one of the techniques is we
use conjecture, which means wemake an educated guess as to
what's going on, and we do thatreally to try to give words to
(21:17):
the experience that peoplehaven't been able to articulate
and kind of always with is itlike this and you know, am I
getting it right?
Um, but they'll be like yeah,you've got it like like that,
and, and it's because there arereally only so many ways that
can go right, right, the, thepattern recognition kicks in
(21:38):
after a while.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And I'd love to like mention here that it's like it's
really in my experience.
There are only so many waysthings can go when we are riding
that negative cycle.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's where there is a limited number of options and
that's why you can be in thatstate of I can predict here what
where we're going next, becausethat is so circular and so this
state depends on this state,and then they keep reactivating
there's a predictable rigidityof responses or a constriction
of responses, and, and so youknow a big part of my work is
(22:12):
just helping people find newmoves, new responses and and
bringing more flexibility into aclosed system.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
That's what I was going to say.
When you get to that placewhere you're saying like, wait,
how am I here making it moredifficult for my partner to be
operating from a basis of caring?
Am I operating from a basis ofcaring?
All of a sudden, we're nolonger riding that loop-de-loop
and there is creativity.
Now a lot of new things canemerge, and I just want to bring
(22:42):
us back to that conversationabout individual work and
couples work and say that fromwhat I heard you say is like do
it, do it in the relationship,within the relationship, look at
the system and work on your endof the system by being in it
(23:02):
and work on your end of thesystem by being in it.
That doesn't mean that we cannotreally be taking our
relationship experiences furtherby taking an independent look
at what is going on with us whennobody's in the room.
Right, if I start to understandmy fight and flight and freeze
responses based on my trauma andmy history, when my partner is
(23:24):
nowhere in the room, I am goingto be able to show up, in that
you know couple's work moreopenly.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So just wanted to clarify that.
That's very helpful.
That's very helpful, yeah, andmost often the triggers will
come when the other person's inthe room, for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
We are almost out of time, but I, before we go to our
final question, I do want toask you can you know there I'm
sure you you've witnessed shiftsin couples who come to you for
help, right?
Can you share, like one of yourbiggest or favorite kind of aha
moments from your work?
I think that's such, I thinkour listeners would love to, to
(24:04):
hear the great end result thatyou may have gotten from from
one of your couples.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I don't think that I can distill it down into like
one couple, because this happensso predictably.
OK, well, give us your favorite,big, big picture one right that
you see, most often in generalmaybe, it's like the the moment
is when I see somebody movingfrom that vigilant, you know, uh
(24:33):
, unwilling to riskvulnerability place and and I
see a couple that has been justat each other and blaming each
other and trigger, trigger,trigger, you know, going into
stress response.
And the first moment that one ofthem turns to the other with
(24:55):
vulnerability and says, you know, when you see me, other with
vulnerability and says, you know, when you see me, when you see
me or hear me, you know harpingabout the dishwasher, what's
really happening for me on theinside is I'm scared that you
don't care.
And I see their partner tear up, you know, and that's the
(25:19):
beginning.
That's the beginning ofbreaking the cycle.
And from there, those momentsof tender, authentic connection
start to build on each other,connection start to build on
(25:42):
each other and the couple kindof finds their way out of that
negative cycle, never goes awaycompletely, but they find a way
to really contain it and nothave it take up so much room in
their relationship and they findtheir way back to each other.
And for me, that's what keepsme working in this.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I'm just now imagining the couple and being
like, oh, that is so wonderful.
I know you mentioned in thepast, when we talked about it,
the word reach.
You know like there is areaching happening and I just
love that there's so much warmthin that yeah, they give a
really clear, uh distilledemotional signal.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
They reach to their partner from from uh, that
undefended place.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yes, and since we're reaching the end of our
conversation right now, wewanted to bring this back to you
when you were just nicelyactually setting this up.
You know saying that you havean experience too, in that
moment, when there is thatconnection happening from the
place of this powerfulvulnerability.
How is working with couples foryou the step into the pivot
(27:02):
that you took when you decidedto work with relationships?
How has all of this been a stepforward for you?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Well, it's always an interesting experience working
with a couple and seeing themoves they make in the negative
cycle and some of the distortedmeanings they make of their
partner's actions and saying, oh, I think I do that too.
That's one of my moves, oh, youknow.
(27:30):
So you know, one of my earlymentors said it's a great
privilege to be paid to do yourown work.
I like that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I think that's a very cool.
Can you say that one more timefor our listeners?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It's a great privilege.
You know it's a wonderful thingto be paid to do your own work.
To get paid to do your own workyeah, you know I think any good
therapist is constantly doingtheir own work, but seeing
couples, it's like I, a mirrorkeeps getting held back up to me
(28:10):
too.
Right, I'm holding up a mirrorfor the couple of what's
happening.
They're holding up a mirror tome too.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, Awesome, Such a fantastic conversation.
Thank you so much, Kathleen.
I've enjoyed, you know, gettingto spend some time with you
both in person and now on thepodcast, and I think this is a
really fantastic message and afantastic reminder.
You know, no matter what kindof relationship you're in, you
(28:39):
know these are all importantthings to to work on continually
.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, I'm happy to bring that point forward too,
because everything that we talkabout in a pulse work it
translates to every otherrelationship too.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, well, it's been lovely chatting with the two of
you.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
You're most welcome.
Like you're saying, ittranslates everywhere, and I'm
thinking about how this idea ofyou know, practicing what we
teach is everyone's invited todo that, and we're all holding
up mirrors for each other allday long.
So thank you for reminding usof that.
We so appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, thanks again, kathleen.
Great to have you on.
Thanks to all our listeners forlistening this week.
Enjoy your Valentine's day and,uh, we will be back, uh, in a
couple of weeks, um, and withanother great guest.
And remember if you have apivot step into it.
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